[00:03] about this modern culture than people were in previous religious cultures where the prize they have to win is so intensely identified, right, the status, power, wealth, that they're literally willing to themselves even in a slow mo
[00:20] fashion to achieve that prize. It's just like people are transfixed in a zombie-like fashion. They don't have control over themselves.
[00:33] about martyrdom culture that we masquerade as hero culture. Now I get it. You are ambitious. You are smart. You're talented. You have big dreams for life. You want to be rich and powerful and have high status. Those are all
[00:48] things everybody wants. Also, there is a way to go about doing it that does not require you to martyr your health. A lot of people have this bad idea in their health that somehow it will help them achieve better success. Today we're
[01:04] going to highlight the evidence that shows that is a bad idea. You can in fact prioritize your health and achieve better outcomes in your success, know, I've always wondered like what if a branch started growing out of my head?
[01:17] >> two nights ago I had this dream. I would turn and there'd be like a root growing out of my skin in the middle of nowhere. It was like creating little seedlings and like dropping little Brians all over the
[01:31] place? >> Like plant them in the yard. This true >> It becomes this nightmare situation where you can't get away from these >> And all all night long there's like Brian, Brian, shut up. I'm swear I'm
[01:47] quiet. What's happening? >> Oh my god. >> Yes. Today we're going to talk about one of the biggest myths of modern life and that's the idea that you need to martyr your health in order to be successful.
[02:01] This has been so ingrained into the psyche of people who want epic professional success. We're going to get to the bottom of why this silly myth of martyrdom has made itself a mainstay in our culture and why it's wrong and how
[02:15] you can make the corrective actions to get yourself back to peak health and peak performance. So you you're coming from the other side too, like you were you're a convert in this new wave of like looking after your health. So a lot
[02:30] of people a they don't realize that you built Brainree Benmo, sold it to PayPal for eBay for 800 million and so made a [ __ ] ton of money. And people hear that are only doing what you're doing now because you had access to money and
[02:46] successful." And recently, for the first time, I heard you say that you think that you would have made more money had you been sleeping better. Is that right? >> Unquestionably, I would have made more money and been more successful had I
[02:59] made health my top priority. >> Can you like talk because I think a lot aren't in the startup world. They're not building businesses. So you're specifically from what I understand you sold the company at a point where it hit
[03:14] a certain valuation but really primarily because you couldn't go on any longer. >> So the truth of the matter is that nobody is going to achieve peak success when your health is in a bad spot. And that is true for me and there's actually
[03:30] two of us in the call today on the podcast today that have gone through the same experience. Dr. Allen also went through the same trajectory as me, I think. Is that right, Dr. Mike? With uh emergency medicine
[03:42] emergency medicine >> to some extent. Yeah. I mean, um do you uh are we using the B- word burnout? >> Yeah, for sure. For sure.
[03:54] >> I mean, basically as well. Is it fair to say you and I were both introduced to a say you and I were both introduced to a culture that sacrificed health for some culture that sacrificed health for some kind of professional idea of success?
[04:08] >> Yeah, I would say a professional ideal like it an expectation of how you behave in that profession. And I think both of us were um uh subject to that maybe even
[04:22] At least I was personally >> that's exactly what I would identify is that the systems that said hey we're going to tell you to behave like this like you know sleep like this eat like this look like this be like this not
[04:39] because the data says it's the best for you or because it produces the best outcomes do these things because the system designed by we don't even know says to do these things and so I know for me in it's very true in in
[04:52] entrepreneurship ship culture. You are expected to sacrifice your health. So expected to sacrifice your health. So there's no amount of travel is too much. There's no amount of sleep is too little. There's, you know, you can
[05:06] sacrifice your your exercise routines. You would eat junk food so long as your revenue is climbing, your employee count is increasing, you know, and you're raising more money. And so it just really is a a spectacular failure of our
[05:21] societal systems that have us do these things that are extremely detrimental to our individual health, our company's health, and everybody around us. And I think it's so silly that we have bought into these notions. So I say, you know,
[05:35] it's relevant here that I did this as an entrepreneur, Mike did this in the in the medical world. So it's not just like one industry. Kate, you're in a for a fortunate situation where I mean, you tell me, but you're 29 years old and so,
[05:50] your experience has been in terms of the the systems that you were introduced to in the world and how success was framed to you. But, uh, let me jump to Mike first, like Mike, would you say your experience was similar to mine in terms
[06:03] of what the system told you to do and what it rewarded you to do? Yeah, I mean in the sense that I got exposed to in medicine a world where physicians are expected to just crush themselves. I mean it starts immediately from medical
[06:18] undergrad was hard. you know, I did chemical engineering undergrad and like worked really hard and then then I started medical school and was just started medical school and was just blown away by the expectations placed on
[06:31] hard they had to study and then that compounded within residency and then step-wise function of increasing expectations and a lack of focus on like personal health. like you never get taught how to be healthy and also be a
[06:48] professional in medicine at the same time. And it was just expected. Like conversation. There was no like me sitting down in a medical school you ready to sacrifice your health and your longevity for this this
[07:01] profession?" Like nobody ever asked me that, right? It's just like, "Oh, being to help people." And then next thing you know, it's like, "I want to sacrifice my own health to help people." And that was never explicitly said to me. And I don't
[07:14] entrepreneur. I think >> is it clear I think I saw this stat correct me if I'm wrong in terms of life expectancy for medical professionals that emergency med doctors had the lowest I think it was like 59 or
[07:30] >> It's crazy low. It's very low. >> I mean had I known that I never would have gone into emergency medicine. You know, it's like somebody can't sell you know, by the way, you're probably going to die about 15 years younger than the
[07:42] average human." Cool, right? No. No thanks. >> Mike, you you were saying also something else about uh this being applicable not just to the medical world or entrepreneurship world, but
[07:54] >> yeah, I don't think this is just unique to medicine or the world of entrepreneurship. I think that this is pretty much every professional career and almost like a societal level expectation that we crush ourselves uh
[08:09] for the benefit of our I don't even know what we're benefiting like theoretically benefit that you have to crush yourself in order to be successful in life or in order to like you know do good for mankind or or humankind but I but I
[08:25] don't think I think it's misguided. >> Yeah. You know, I could not agree with you more. I I think that in our global system that we are pawns for the system and we are disposable for
[08:42] the system's progress. But the insanity this moment is the system is the priority of the species and we are disposable. And we we compensate for that situation by trying to give ourselves trophies for
[08:59] success you know power wealth status but it's a giant cope for the fact that we are martyrs for system bigger than ourselves and I think the opportunity here is to shift it to say we no long and this is like you when you when death
[09:13] is inevitable that's kind of the only thing you can do to cope or you can like you know identify an afterlife and be like actually there's a bigger system at play here and we're going to triumph over the system. But in practical terms,
[09:26] this is why I I think that what we're doing is don't die is correct that when existence itself becomes the priority, we are no longer pawns and will be arbitrageed in, you know, for the systems winning and but so it's like
[09:38] such a big concept, but we play these micro games of the modern to try to earn our own status, power, respect within the the circles we run. Kate, what's been your your I mean, you're 29 years old. What's been your life experience in
[09:52] terms of the culture that you walk into as a professional and what pressures do you feel? >> Yeah, I mean um being in the startup definitely feel the pressure to say, "Hey, I've been working so hard. I've
[10:06] been staying up all night working on this project." And then it's funny. I think in the fashion industry, there's a little bit more of a social pressure to go out, have drinks, connect with people. smoking is a little bit more
[10:20] prevalent in that community. So there's a little bit more of like this like cool person debaucherous behavior in the fashion community. So I think it's interesting like being in both worlds of startup and fashion back in the day. Um
[10:33] but yeah, I totally agree like we if you like really step back and look at it soberly, it's it's not a good situation. in my conversation with uh I primarily speak to founders and when they're going through this process and I can tell when
[10:47] I enter this conversation and I try to persuade them hey like let's just start with some baseline observations you do not want to write inefficient code right like your goal is to write efficient code your goal is to run
[11:03] efficient hardware you don't want sloppy hardware you don't want sloppy software you want efficient systems You are software and hardware and you do not want to run sloppy software hardware on yourself and that's what happens when
[11:17] Now like in those basic terms like they get it but then when they see themselves uh competing against other people who are willing to monitor themselves they feel like they're going to fall behind if they don't do it. So they don't take
[11:32] the same number of international trips if they're not you know uh sleeping 3 to they're not productive, like it's the perception that they're falling behind. But I have found it is incredibly hard to get people to feel comfortable they
[11:49] to get people to feel comfortable they can safely prioritize their health and not fall behind. And they just won't let it go. They're so attached to this ideology just like it's almost like hanging from the monkey bars. Like you
[12:01] you let go >> there's there's no safety net. You're think that's about? >> Do you think that they believe in the first place that this is bad for them? I mean, I the first question, right? Like,
[12:13] do they even believe us? >> So, I would like to hypothesize that the listening to us right now is part of hustle culture and may not realize a that they're part of hustle culture and b that it's impacting their health. So I
[12:27] would love to go through like what it means, what happens to the individual assuming that we believe that for a second. What happens when you don't get enough sleep? What happens when you um are burnt out? The b word. And then once
[12:41] we So then once you once everyone's agreed upon those terms, Brian, that's when all of that angst kicks up because then you come face to face with like, wait, do I need to make a decision between myself and my company? And we
[12:53] >> Okay, cool. All right, let's jump into the evidence. We have a bunch of evidence prepared. Let's go over it and let's see what effect want to call it hustle culture because hustling is a good thing. So like
[13:10] is there a word we can use that it's like almost um destructive >> it's just work culture. It's just current work culture. >> Work is a positive word. We needed something that captures that it's an
[13:25] like you. >> Oh, it's like um ma modern culture. >> Yeah, but it's modern culture masquerading as hero culture, evidence. We'll come back on the mimemetics. It's going to happen. It's
[13:40] >> Yeah, it's coming. >> Okay, Mike, do you want to start us off with some of the evidence we put together as we evaluated this topic? >> Yeah. So, as we went through this, I think there's like three or four
[13:52] statements that we can make around the evidence um with regard to this type of culture whose word we haven't identified what it is yet. But basically, one overwork will kill you. Two, working too much destroys your relationships. Three,
[14:07] all-nighters and sleep disruption causes heart disease and diabetes. And four, sleep disruption and overwork makes you a bad leader. So, let's let's break those down. So overwork will kill you. This has been well studied. There was a
[14:20] meta analysis in 2022 that basically came to the conclusion that burnout increases heart attack risk by 78%. Let that seep in for a second. Like burnout increases heart attack risk by 78%. That's huge. That's more than like most
[14:34] we're talking about like taking supp certain supplements or exercising or like all of these things have fairly minimal in uh changes to your actual risk. 78% is is massive. And then there was another study that showed the amount
[14:49] of work, so working beyond 55 hours per week, was led to about 800,000 deaths from stroke and heart disease in 2016. And that those people who worked greater And that those people who worked greater than 55 hours per week had a 35% higher
[15:03] risk of stroke and a 17% higher risk of death from heart attack. So, we know without a shadow of a doubt that working too much, whether that's just the sense the number of hours you're putting in a week actually has a direct impact on
[15:18] going to live. devil's advocate in this. Okay, I just I just heard what you said and um I'm thinking, you know what, Mike, I get it. I'm not really interested in living, you
[15:33] know, 80 years of life. I'm okay to trade off my last 10 years of life so I can be epic in my 20s, make a ton of money, and then I can just reverse the damage I did in my 20s, I can do it in my 30s and 40s. So, I'm willing to to
[15:47] take this gamble and make the trade-off. Can you what's what's your argument there? Well, so first first off, it there's a difference between um making it up and then just having like worse actual
[16:00] livelihood or um life quality during the years that you currently have. So the the counterargument to what you just suggested is that you're actually going to see lower performance the harder you're working. So when you're pushing
[16:13] yourself, you're likely not sleeping as much, right? You're likely not spending You're hurting your social relationships. you're not sleeping, not exercising. All those things actually reduce your likelihood of um of
[16:28] of performing at the highest possible level. And this gets, I think, to what you were talking about, Brian, in terms of like you feel like um you could have been even more successful than you were had you been taking better care of
[16:41] yourself. And the research actually supports that statement. So, if we look at, for example, relationships, working too much destroys your relationships. That was the second statement that that we made. There was a um interesting uh
[16:53] trial that was done in Belgium where employees shifted to a 30-hour work week and they actually found that they had generally higher well-being, just a sense of overall well-being. And that that was mostly uh generated by lower
[17:06] work and family conflict. And we've seen this time and time again in research more trouble with their f in their family life. they have more trouble in their in their relationships and they don't get as much uh general happiness
[17:21] from their life because they're just crushing themselves at work basically. Yeah. Okay, cool. So my my initial knee-jerk reaction to you would be uh lacking in awareness of the second and third and
[17:38] fourth order consequences that if I begin this process and I have some level of health deterioration that I am I'm thinking that it may only affect end of life and or that I can make it up in my 30s 40s. But what I'm
[17:52] not accounting for are the other points you laid out in the beginning to say it's going to begin uh the its ruinous effects on my relationships. It's going to begin my ru it's going to begin uh lessening I it's going to diminish my
[18:07] have all these other following consequences. So my first reaction to you is is totally inaccurate. That is not the trade-off I'm making. It's a much more sophisticated cascade of consequences than I'm anticipating and I
[18:22] means. Is that fair? >> Yeah, that's totally fair. >> Yeah. And um specifically like there's a couple other stats here. Sleep restricted CEOs make 29% more risky errors in lab simulations. So like
[18:36] you're going to be a worse immediate leader. So, the trade-off of short-term to long-term falls flat when you're a worse CEO, leader, builder, er, medicine doctor. Um, and that fit workers log two extra productive hours
[18:52] per week. So, your productivity of either your team or yourself also increases with better health decisions in the immediate term. that one study where they looked at Israeli judges. I find this one super
[19:05] impressive. So this was Israeli judges, judges that are determining whether they found that in the morning when they're most arrested that 65% of people made parole, but right before lunch 0% made parole. It's like the timing of day
[19:22] actually turn and this has been this has been shown in CEOs as well where not you're actually like more pessimistic and less charismatic when you're tired. So there was a study looking at um at leaders who were sleepd deprived and in
[19:36] those sleep-d deprived leaders people perceived them as being less charismatic and they made poor decisions and did not lead their team quite as well which is like makes total sense when you think about it right I mean how often have you
[19:49] you had less energy people pick up on that even if it's you know even if it's that you're not charismatic you're not as understanding you're not as kind like that stuff makes total sense Quick detour here that in my personal
[20:04] life with really close interpersonal relationships, it it's become so obvious to me now that I'm like observing myself to have hard conversations before 5:00 p.m. If if it's 5:00 p.m., like you're the chance of a hard conversation going
[20:20] wrong is so much higher. So, just avoid it now. Cuz like if we all have this goal of working things out together, then it doesn't make any sense to do things after 5 p.m. that are difficult. My wife Britney and I have this um had
[20:32] this term when I was working er shifts called night shifted where uh we would specifically avoid difficult conversations after I was coming off a >> Yeah. Because >> 100%. because and I I recognized this
[20:46] too, but like um she picked up on the fact that like I was just so quick to um to cut her down or like say something negative or be pessimistic or like just be like aggro because I didn't get enough sleep, right? So like we
[21:01] literally named it and like changed behavior around it. Like I remember this one time I was coming off of uh this was actually in residency um overshare for a minute. So I was coming off of a an ICU shift. It was one of those like 36-hour
[21:14] like all throughout the night, but you're also working like 36 hours Actually, I was running the dog. And like this other dog came and started couldn't get it to go away. I was kind of shoe it away, right? It was just me
[21:29] dog bothering us. And it's like running in and out of the street, runs in front of this car. And this nice old lady stops and she like says something to me that she was saying something brood. And I just start cussing her out. Oh my god.
[21:44] >> Like she looked at me like I was the like the drove away. And then like after she left something kind.
[21:56] >> I was so reactive and I was just I was night shifted, man. That's like all it tells the story of like this pessimism and this this lack of like empathy that happens when we're when we're sleep deprived. And I think a lot
[22:09] >> Yeah. Mike, if you really wanted to burn her, you'd be like, "You better hope you're not in the ER." >> Oh, man. I was like I was like, "F you, you effing." I mean, it was bad. It was like so not me. But like, that's what
[22:23] happens. >> Yeah. My in my first uh my previous relationship, I I tried to make this rule that, you know, like realizing that rule that, you know, like realizing that when 6 or 7 p.m. Brian arrived, like it
[22:37] was not a good situation for almost anything. I getting the kids bathed, fed, and put to bed was like the only thing I could muster up. And so I tried to introduce this concept, but uh my partner at the time uh needed to do
[22:51] emotional reconciliation. Like she felt like it was a necessity of her existence. And so she would break protocol and I would just plead with her like we can't like if we do this, it's just going to go off the rails. It's
[23:04] going to make things worse. And she would persist. And so then it it was would persist. And so then it it was just an absolute nightmare where I tried to set the rules but then she needed to like address this like she had needs as
[23:17] wreck of a situation. >> Yeah. So um I've been on the other side this conversation now like there's no way right but that's the crazy thing is that like consciousness makes you feel like who you are in the moment is you.
[23:33] And so until you can separate from that, like you just don't realize it. And so liberated to be on the other side of that now and be like, "Okay, absolutely that now and be like, "Okay, absolutely after 5:00 p.m. Kate is bad at having
[23:48] emotional stability period. Any emotional like even with team members when I'm like going to have a hard conversation, I'm like be careful when I schedule it because I'm like I know I need to be my best self." Um so I
[24:01] empathize with that situation. I think this conversation is like detangling who we are at different time periods and recognizing like when you are sleep. It's like in the situation with Mike, you could totally witness someone losing
[24:14] their temper and be like, have they slept recently? Like have empathy toward people don't realize what's good for them. >> Yeah. Okay. So, back to the evidence. So far, we've covered that you have
[24:26] dramatic increases in cardiovascular risk profile. 78% uh increased likelihood of heart attack. You're less charismatic. Your personal relationships charismatic. Your personal relationships become ruinous. Uh Kate, you mentioned
[24:40] on uh lessened sleep quality, I think. >> Oh, no. Mhm. >> Yeah. What other evidence do we have that suggests that this martyrdom that suggests that this martyrdom culture masquerading as hero culture is
[24:52] bad for somebody? >> Well, there's also the um the phys physical fitness evidence. So the more physically fit you are, the less sick you are. So um there's pretty close relationship between how um whether you
[25:06] exercise, what percentile of fitness you're in, and then how many days you miss of work a year. So not just in terms of like how well you perform, but also are you even at work. So the top 25th percentile of physical fitness
[25:19] misses on average about two days per year, whereas the bottom 25 percentile misses about six days per year. So you're actually making an investment in how much you're able to totally work by be by being physically fit. So it goes
[25:32] be by being physically fit. So it goes beyond just sleep gets into fitness and then also into diet. So if we roll into the diet realm, there's decisions around what we eat and a lot of times this martyrum culture makes poor decisions
[25:47] around diet out of convenience. And what we've seen is that cognitive performance tracks almost directly with diet in terms of the more convenient food that you eat. And by convenient, I'm talking about like ultrarocessed junk food,
[26:00] quick food, fast food, things like that. Basically, what every serving of of this sort of food, ultrarocessed food that you eat per day increases your risk of dementia by about 13%. So, not only do we see a long-term increased risk of
[26:14] dementia, but we also see a change in terms of your actual performance dayto-day and your actual decisions that you're making. So, it's fairly clear that not just in terms of sleep and exercise, but also diet, we're having
[26:27] direct effects on our ability to perform in these sorts of situations. >> Do you think we've convinced them? >> Probably not. it's like one of those things where like,
[26:40] people just have to experience before they can really believe them. And I feel in the culture and you see everybody doing it. I feel like this might be one >> Yeah, that was true. >> It's also the case that the uh for most
[26:54] >> It's also the case that the uh for most people like I guess for a while religion was a very motivating force. people would do anything >> to be compliant with their religious obligations so they could receive the
[27:07] afterlife reward. And people are equally, if not more zealous about this martyrdom culture than people were in previous religious cultures where the previous religious cultures where the the prize they have to win is is so
[27:23] intensely um identified right the status power wealth that they're literally willing to suicide themselves even in a slow mo fashion to achieve that prize. It's just like people are transfixed
[27:38] >> in a zombie-like fashion. They don't have control over themselves. And that's I'm talking to somebody, >> I think they can hear these stats of like, you know, it's all like mumbled like heart attack risk performance and
[27:51] but it's like just background noise, but they hear this triumphant anthem of the victory of the man in the arena in the arena, you know, framework. It's like it's and so I I do in the same way that I guess I I really have reflected a lot
[28:05] I guess I I really have reflected a lot on my own inability to like the dramatic reduction of my self-control with 11 days of international travel I and and basically feeling almost powerless to actually make my own decisions because
[28:21] my body is just destroyed. I'm now in primitive brain land. I think in many ways the people who are doing this are in some way, shape or form in some kind in some way, shape or form in some kind of deficient state of wisdom where they
[28:35] cannot make good decisions on their own behalf. It's a really weird they don't want to recognize it. They don't want to square with it andor they saying it's the trade-off is worth it to me. I'd rather just play modern culture
[28:49] and pretend like it's not there. It's kind of like it's kind of human nature to some extent to be this >> future focused to like like this sense of delayed gratification which we even teach to children right we teach them
[29:01] delayed gratification and future focus and and all these things and it's just taking it's taking them out of presence right it's taking them out of being in in the present moment and that doesn't need that doesn't need to be like this
[29:14] woo thing it can also just be like the idea of like can I be my best self and also still succeed in this future moment. Do I have to like go so far as that I'm sacrificing? And I think that's that's the issue is that
[29:27] it's just being pushed too far. There's nothing wrong with future focusing and you don't have to go crazy about it, right? So I if we're saying that like um we're constantly feature focused and in the past we were some form of religion
[29:43] the past we were some form of religion focused, we've now swapped that out for status/wealth money as a religion or as a framework. And the argument that we're trying to make in this call is to swap out health
[29:56] as a religion. like make that your number one priority in life for this future thinking that Mike's talking about. And in this transition phase, one, you can still earn status, money, wealth in society and make healthy
[30:09] number one priority. We're arguing that. And then two is in this transition state, it's really painful and very uncomfortable. And if you're feeling internal angst hearing this conversation cuz you're like, you guys, like that
[30:22] just sounds impossible. There is a way. it doesn't need to feel so scary. So, I tackle now as a group. >> Okay, cool. Yeah, it's also the case that there's there's probably a few uh easy bridges here. For example, like
[30:36] when you look at an Olympic athlete or even professional athletes, no, very few if anybody argues that it's good for an athlete to be sleepd deprived, to not have good nutrition, to you know, to travel too much. Like it's
[30:51] just a an expectation like clearly their bodies are their primary asset and if court and they're going to lose. But somehow the fact that entrepreneurs or or professionals generally compete with their minds and their emotions and their
[31:06] judgment. They somehow don't view themselves as subject to the same physical requirements. It's just really a a a disconnect of cognition >> that like we don't pair the two that when you want ideal performance you need
[31:20] to treat you need to treat your only asset with this kind of um rigorous uh health approach. So yeah just I think in time I I I do think we are winning the war. Uh I think that the culture is shifting. I think that people
[31:34] increasingly see this martyrm culture is really bad. it does produce a bad outcomes and that I I've seen many of my friends and and um particularly friends and and um particularly investors they really care and evaluate
[31:47] the founders's health when making an investment that if the founder is not decisions because they know it just compromise so I do think we're winning the war all right cool so let's jump to that so Kate you're saying that people
[32:00] are like okay guys look I buy it but you've got to give me an easy on-ramp I can't spend 5 hours a day. So like give me the the argument that this is intense schedule. >> Yeah. Um and I would put forth first
[32:17] this is how I transitioned between the two arenas of competition in today's two arenas of competition in today's world is treating this is like going to sound [ __ ] up but I think it works for people like myself who were
[32:30] indoctrinated into this previous mindset. Treat sleep like work. treat it like it is a hustle in of itself. So when 12 PM rolls around, my desire is to
[32:45] stay up and do things because I become very creative during that time period. I love spending that time awake. I have to delay gratification in that moment and delay gratification in that moment and say you are working Kate, you need to go
[32:59] to sleep. like that is part of. So in fact like people perceive this at least how I perceived it that sleep is a luxury and something that I can that um is slacking off to be completely honest. That's definitely how I viewed it. Like
[33:14] I'm >> I'm relaxing by sleeping. And so if you treat it if you're the kind of person that works 24/7 like I do, I treat now uh sleep as work. So it actually factors into the, you know, I need to have this
[33:30] today while also I need to go to sleep to go to sleep, I have to go to sleep cuz that's my job to actually go to sleep. So like that's the bridge that I that I I've played in this tricking
[33:43] >> Mike, how does that frame land for you? If if Kate says that frame, you know, treat sleep like work, does that increase does that improve your um >> Oh, yeah. just like does that does that resonate with you?
[33:57] >> Not really. Not really. Like for for me just for me it doesn't. I mean I think that like that's it's great that it works for Kate, but for me personally it doesn't as much because um yeah I I get a bit I have to be
[34:10] anxious about sleep if I'm not getting the sleep that I need. And that leads to more lack of sleep, more insomnia. And that's just my my own personal like anxiety stuff that I got to work through. But like calling it work to me
[34:25] through. But like calling it work to me gives it a um another level of like requirement, you know what I mean? So, so for me what for me what actually like seems to work better is like um this more like compassionate approach where I
[34:38] kind of for me I like depersonalize it because there's like there's so much like self- judgment built up in my own personal expectations around my own career and success and all those things that I end up treating myself without
[34:53] that I end up treating myself without any um compassion and what I truly need sleep or for exercise or diet. is just more self-compassion. And the way for me to do that is to imagine rather than making a decision for myself, I'm making
[35:08] cared one or for someone that I can easily find that compassion for. >> Like even like when I was a physician working in the ER, how would I want my doctor to take care of themsel, right? As opposed to like should I go to bed
[35:21] patients tomorrow want their doctor to go to bed right now? like that sort of me to find the empathy and the compassion that I can't find otherwise just when I'm thinking about like what I should be doing.
[35:34] >> I'd love that. Yeah. >> So, if if I've got this like brutal uh you need work 24/7 like turn that into sleep mentality and Mike has the empathy route where he's looking after himself as a parent would. How do you do it,
[35:47] as a parent would. How do you do it, Brian? What's your mental model? Yeah, I think well first of all I think that there is a group of of people who do really feel this they feel the pain and
[36:00] discomfort of the modern culture and they want an exit path but they feel trapped with the expectations of others and so I think that's probably the conference cate the conference we were at this past week and there were two
[36:13] founders there from Australia and I said you guys uh and they were talking about that they basically were doing one international trip I think every 30 days or so you because I guess Australia is the middle of nowhere. No offense Kate.
[36:29] >> It's true. >> So they they you know going to Asia and the states it was just a lot and the Middle East. And so I was going through the the devastating uh health effects of international travel and telling them
[36:41] what I had been going through from Europe. And one of the founders turned to me and said, "I'm going to tell my board that Brian Johnson said I can only make one international trip each month." And I said, "That's right. Tell them
[36:53] And I said, "That's right. Tell them that that your investors do not want you to travel more than one time per month because if you do, it's going to lessen anxiety, depression. It's going to hurt your relationships. It's going to mess
[37:07] up your all of your biological systems. You will build a better company if you can create a limited budget of international travel. Now, if you need to make break and do something like two trips over a 90-day period of time,
[37:20] okay? But just realize there's definitely a budget. It is not an this. And he I think he really felt emboldened in that conversation that if he had cover like if his investors wanted him to have that kind of
[37:33] want him to travel internationally, I think he would feel much more empowered. So to me, it's it's most people want social permission >> to do the things they know they want to do. And right now like even the like
[37:47] every I feel like everyone is is enslaved by modern society to various degrees. I was thinking about this this morning that the the peak existence morning that the the peak existence right now is actually agency. It's the
[38:01] ability to be free of entrapment of various things. And the the forces of the world are so good at entrapping us with addictive algorithms, addictive foods, addictive social feeds, addictive, you know, porn like that. The
[38:14] world is so good at getting us into these these locked in dopamine uh these these locked in dopamine uh addiction cycles. It's entrament. And once you then are missing out on sleep and you lose more of your willpower,
[38:27] that enttrapment becomes stronger and stronger to like this strangulation. And people intuitively feel it and they're mad when they're told that they can't like they can't they don't they have no more willpower left and the addictions
[38:39] are too strong. And so I understand like >> and so I think it's just giving them >> and so I think it's just giving them permission of like uh hey person like um stop. Like they're [ __ ] you up. this is bad for you, it's bad for society,
[38:52] but it just that's kind of like the wedge because if you put it back on the must the willpower to do it." It's a really hard equation. If you have if you "You know what? We support you in doing this." It makes it so much easier.
[39:06] >> So, if someone's like, "Okay, fine. I'll like figure out my mental model." Um, I sleep diet exercise practically. couple ways that like I do this in my life.
[39:21] they're like okay how do I actually start to implement this one is blocking out a morning routine to get things done. So saying like I'm not going to do XYZ before this time period. So I think Brian everything on your calendar is
[39:35] >> Mhm. >> And then on the tail end as well. Same thing for sleep. So when a social event comes up that you've planned in your mind like that that time allocation it's already taken up by default. And then if
[39:49] you are going to work around it like you have to plan otherwise as opposed to the will happen whatever your calendar allows for it. So I' say those two things and then for travel um being really really sober about the fact it
[40:03] has and treating it with that level of commitment. So, I know for this Europe trip, I was thinking about it like two months in advance being, okay, got to get ready, got to get ready. Like, I need to be mentally in
[40:18] the right space for this um planning calendars accordingly. Like, previously, I would travel red eyes. Um, when I was going back and forth between New York and LA a lot because I was like, that's the best time to get my uh travel out of
[40:31] the way so I have the day to do things. And now I look back on that I'm like that is wild that I thought that I was saving time by traveling overnight. And so same thing for travel like booking the plane trip that aligns with your
[40:45] sleep and morning routine schedule as much as possible. So those are a couple >> I feel like Brian does a really good job of this. Um having non-negotiables, >> like it is non-negotiable that I am going to do my whatever 40step morning
[41:02] routine that takes 3 and 1 half hours or whatever whatever crazy thing it is right now. >> Sorry, five and a half. Yeah. Like and you know another hour and a half or whatever it is. But like no I mean but
[41:16] in all joking aside like those non-negotiables are extremely important doing to ourselves is talking ourselves out of things, right? So the minute you give yourself any leeway to convince yourself that there's an alternative
[41:30] it every single time. And that's especially true in type A people who are like the same people that are very successful in life because they they're of something. And that means they're good at convincing themselves of
[41:44] >> Yeah. And I think that a lot of people when they listen to this, they're going to say, "I don't have the luxury of a morning routine, right? like I'm I'm on of night. I'm on calls with the Middle East at this time of night. And I've got
[41:59] I've got kids who wake up in the morning. I've got like parents I'm taking care of. Like people have really serious life limitations. And so I I get that. And so I guess the question is like how how do you um try to create a
[42:17] culture of health given that people's lives are practically very complex and there's no oneizefits-all. And so we I guess like if we review the things we've talked about, this is why I like resting heart rate before bed so much because no
[42:32] matter who you are, that is the one thing you can build life systems around. thing you can build life systems around. So, like Mike was saying, uh, I try to never let myself make decisions because I know if I make a decision in that
[42:46] moment, like if it's just like a on the spot, whatever Brian feels like decision, I will most likely make the wrong decision. And so you I want like wants good things for myself to be making system decisions, not 700 p.m.
[43:02] who's worn down, out of willpower, wants to soo himself with whatever. And so the listen to a previous episode we did on this on the the ways you can focus on
[43:14] reducing your heart rate, but very simple things like a lot of people report that rumination is their number one problem. So like yesterday, a guy a bunch of people a tour the other the clinic and he said, "I've done
[43:29] everything to optimize my health. Like I do red light. I eat my last meal of the blank blank and he said I just can't sleep. And so I was like okay this is a puzzle. So I probed it around a little bit and it's his rumination that he is
[43:45] bit and it's his rumination that he is tip a he is incredibly ambitious. Every now how do I you know change the world in this way one or the other. And so I was like okay so that rumination is going to cost you five to 25 beats per
[43:58] minute. And so you and you like first of all you have to rec reconcile that is world's problems. All right? Like you need to like separate. So we walk rumination is, how you talk through it, how you minimize it is he's going to
[44:13] I think if if what we should probably do is like we should probably bring a few guests on here like that so people can hear this dialogue of like what they're going through because in their mind they're doing everything right and this
[44:25] like one or two things just slips by and undercuts everything else and the bad sleep leads to poor willpower which has other cascade. So I'm guessing that we just need a few real life examples. >> Good point. Yep. Agreed.
[44:39] >> Mike, by the way, how's your TV series The Pit going? I've taken a break. I'm taking an extended break. It was uh I did another one after we had the last podcast and um it crushed me like and
[44:55] break right now. Maybe you get back to it like on Saturday morning or >> On Saturday, I had a minute and I was I was going to watch the show or something was going to watch the show or something and I searched the pit and I couldn't
[45:08] >> It's on Max. Yeah. >> Okay. All right. So, I was going to try to simulate a Mike Min experience and watching The Pit. >> No. So, I'll do it this coming weekend. I'll watch an episode.
[45:20] >> So, like that's that's something I need a guardrail around. It's like I my guardrail needs to be I do not watch The Pit after 6 p.m. or something like that. create these guardrails of things that are just non-negotiables that and I
[45:34] think you know what's interesting is I think that that that's like the main thing for me like when it comes to like stepping into this world of prioritizing health is just identifying like you know just like the top three five things that
[45:50] then create those guardrails there's non-negotiables around it and just start there like that to me like Maybe it's I don't eat junk food. Maybe it's I'm in bed by 10 p.m. Maybe it's, you know, I'm
[46:03] up an hour before the kids so I can meditate and journal. Like like whatever important to you. And it's probably different for everybody. Like just starting there seems like a really like easy place to get going, you know?
[46:15] guess I would try to summarize this conversation. I would say this. conversation. I would say this. Don't give up your power. >> So true. You want you want to concentrate your power. You want to be
[46:30] as powerful as you can as a human. And the best way to be powerful is to claim your agency. And anything that steps on your power or agency is bad for you. And
[46:43] so that includes if culture is telling you to do martyrdom, it's going to ruin your power, right? It's going to enslave you in a system that's not your making make you a lesser human being. It's going to destroy your willpower. It's
[46:56] risk. It's going to make you a less charismatic leader. It's going to ruin you're going to become fat. Like it's just bad. And then just go down the just bad. And then just go down the list. Do not let the world take your
[47:09] statement. Like people understand that people want power, status, and wealth. So don't lose power. And so that may resonate, you know. Then also I'd say second thing is is um be these things because when you be these things when
[47:24] see this and they will respond correspondingly and when they do you have more societal permission to do it. If everybody went to bed on time nobody that there are some outliers who are like they're so loud of like it's
[47:39] amazing and the only way to success to you know sleep 3 hours per night they that they create this cultural illusion that that's what it takes. And so the more the zeitgeist can shift to this the the better uh the more cover someone's
[47:53] you experience this I think you will feel for yourself you will become a entrepreneur a better professional better parent child friend co-orker like do. You will not have to sacrifice your success by doing this. And you just have
[48:07] success by doing this. And you just have to just just cross over that threshold. Then you can speak to it with confidence. Okay. I guess as we wrap Kate just a quick roundup. You were sick last week. Uh Mike and I missed you.
[48:20] Glad you're back. How are you feeling? >> I'm feeling much better. Still a little congested, but yeah, definitely. Uh whenever you're sick, it's a always a your health cuz when you're sick, you realize how bad it is. So, I'm glad I'm
[48:35] >> And then Kate is going to Croatia and so we are concerned about more international travel. Uh Kate, can you tell us about that? >> Yeah, what do I do about this? I'm going to Croatia for my cousin's wedding. It's
[48:48] a big deal. I rarely get to celebrate with my Bosnian family. So, it's a big big deal. I'm kind of I'm dreading I'm just going to I'm not going to get sick. I'm going
[49:01] >> get sick because you're going to listen to the podcast that Brian and I recorded to the podcast that Brian and I recorded last week.
[49:13] Well, the good news, Kate, is you are very well prepared. You now know all the you have all the evidence on what you can do to make the best of the >> It's true. >> Yeah. Mike, um, how are you doing in
[49:26] >> I'm pretty great. Um, I'm not traveling a lot right now, which is amazing for my sleep, and I'm not watching The Pit, which is also amazing for my sleep. So, >> So, you're you're in a nice steady routine. You're feeling good.
[49:42] >> Yeah. This will inevitably not last for very long, but uh going to try to enjoy it while it's here. >> Yeah, those those durations where you're best. >> That's the best, isn't it? Yeah.
[49:54] >> Brian, um any observations lately about your health that you want to slip in? before bed experiment. >> A few quick ticks. You can see on my face that my face is pretty destroyed. On Friday, I did a 1927 nanometer laser.
[50:09] This is Lutronic. So, this is a nonablative laser. So, we're trying to basically rebuild collagen, elastin, lessen wrinkles. Um, and so this is like we shaved off maybe 30% of my face with this. I had numbing cream on, but it's
[50:23] this. I had numbing cream on, but it's still pretty spicy. Um, and then I did I started doing red light therapy before bed. Uh, this is the math. Uh, the approximation we have is the lights are 4 jewels cime squared per minute. So I
[50:39] increased my time to 8 minutes. I'm getting 32 jewels per centimeter squared getting 32 jewels per centimeter squared of red and near exposure before bed. My first night of experiment, it increased my sleep duration by an hour. So a huge
[50:51] boost. We'll see over time what happens. And then I would say that I'm still recovering from travel. Like it I'm still trying to get my sleep architecture on point. I'm still trying to get all my body system back online. I
[51:05] people are like, "Oh, you're such a snowflake." And they like they I think snowflake." And they like they I think when you feel like [ __ ] you don't feel more shitty. Uh you you don't feel the shittyness as much. When you feel
[51:20] exceptional and you go to bad, man, it stings. So, I'm really like I'm just in this I'm in a recoil phase of just how bad and devastating international travel is for health. And there's we have a few
[51:36] clinics in China opening up and our China team is wanting us to be out in China team is wanting us to be out in China this fall. And man, I I don't know how to do it. But um trying to figure out like what we do on the
[51:48] to do a Middle East trip. Um so yeah, with you. >> Good to see you guys. Okay, guys. Be >> This is the Brian Johnson podcast. Special thanks to my co-hosts, Kate
[52:02] Tollo and Dr. Mike Malin. For more science breakdowns and protocols, the podcast on your favorite platform, or follow me on Instagram or ex Brian