[00:00] nice alright let's let's talk about one more thing before we go here my friend and it is oh it's a big topic from from last time Halo going to Activision
[00:12] which still feels weird I don't know about you yeah man of course yeah it's still like I mean I listen to a lot of other gaming podcasts and every time
[00:24] it's like the big topic everyone's talking about I still can't get used to that yeah and eventually we will one way or the other, but it is still new and strange for now. Frank O'Connor, who was at 343 from day one,
[00:39] Frank, as a quick thing, he was a colleague of mine at Official Xbox Magazine. He was our executive editor, and Bungie hired him away to be their community manager.
[00:52] And if you followed the development of Halo 2 and read the weekly updates on Bungie.net, That was Frank. That was all Frank's creation and his doing. And he went on to, when Bungie became independent and went off to do Destiny,
[01:10] Frank stayed with Halo, went to 343, I guess it's like employee number one or number two or something. So he was there for nearly 20 years and was the franchise creative director.
[01:23] So this is kind of oversaw the whole thing on the story side and what have you. He left in, he was 2023, so he's not been there for a few years now,
[01:36] so he wasn't there for this big seismic change that happened last week. But he did post on, oh my God, look at that. Holy hell.
[01:48] This is why you watch the video. This is why you watch us on video. Look at Ryan. Oh my God. Ryan, what the hell? I don't even know where Tyle, where did he even get that? This is an old goddamn video.
[02:00] Dude, that's crazy. That is Baby McCaffrey right there. Damn. Well, I'm sure we're talking about Halo. Yeah, I bet. That much I can pretty much guarantee.
[02:13] Anyway, thank you, Tyle. Boy, that was a treat. That was a lot. If you want, we'll watch on video. Whatever this time code is, go look it up on the video version. so you can see we're in a gas fight.
[02:29] Anyway, so Frank was, you know, he's been with the franchise for a very, very, very long time, up until three years ago. And there was a post on LinkedIn from a former Xbox social media person,
[02:45] which that isn't relevant to what I want to get into here. What is relevant is that Frank, I don't know if he knows this person or what, but he commented on it.
[02:57] And I just thought it was interesting to dig into his comment because he was so darn close to the series for so long. So he responds to this post about how Activision is going to handle Halo
[03:12] and what that's going to look like. And Frank says, he basically said, well, I see three viable paths forward for Halo at Activision.
[03:28] One, and these are now, I'm directly quoting him now. He says, one, make a classic Halo movement slash sandbox slash shooter experience tailored to a core audience
[03:40] and scaled to be successful with that core audience and attracted to a broader one so it can grow, not to mention the obvious fact that Halo multiplayer is better with more people playing by mathematical default.
[03:52] Frank's right about that. Yeah. Number two, the second path forward, according to Frank, is make something new and modern that reinvents the game-slash-universe
[04:04] in a surprising but fantastic way, which I would maybe step aside here for a second Michael to argue that that probably what we say the big software did with Doom 2016 right Yes Yeah yeah Absolutely And so Frank says make something new and modern
[04:21] that reinvents the game and universe in a surprising but fantastic way, an action sandbox game, maybe it's a new take on the first-person shooter, maybe it's an action RPG, but it's fundamentally different, and succeeds with a combination of strong story, IP use,
[04:37] and gets a small head start based on curiosity or loyalty. And then the third viable path forward for Halo that Frank sees is translate the Halo IP and sandbox into the Activision comfort zone.
[04:52] Use the player, progression, and business models that are proven to work and craft a big annual or semi-annual spectacle and constant content. And then he notes, pro tip, do not tie it to hardware or services launch cycles.
[05:09] A nod to the delay of Halo Infinite that was supposed to launch with the Series X there, no doubt. And he says, do not try to force it into a ship or aging platform. Another nod to Infinite, I think.
[05:22] Which did have an Xbox One version. And he says, do not, oh yeah, that it can't fit. and do not abandon Sandbox.
[05:34] And then he says, pro pro tip, hire Bungie and Halo Studios and other laid off folks who are bursting with talent and ideas that got nerfed or shut down over the years.
[05:47] Yeah. And that's interesting because, Michael, before I turn it over to you, just what he said there at the end, I don't know if I've ever told this story, and I apologize if I have and I'm repeating myself. I think this is okay to share at this point
[06:01] because 343 Halo Studios, like it's they're not making the games anymore. So I think I hope I'm not speaking out of school when I share this story. We've got some secrets.
[06:13] So E3 2016 which was the E3 after Halo 5 had come out. Guardians, yeah. Which
[06:25] the campaign is not beloved. I did an entire hour with the Unlocked crew at the time. Destin, I think Sean the Shark Finnegan was in there.
[06:37] I think Miranda might have been there as well. We did a whole hour or more, whatever it was, on when the embargo lifted, of how we just tore the campaign to shreds.
[06:49] Just of all of our criticisms of it, and there were many. Yeah. And months later, at E3 2016, I'm leaving the Xbox booth from an appointment to go to some other appointment. And some 343 guys are, there's like a group of them, and they, I don't remember if I knew any of them, I think I knew maybe one or two of them.
[07:16] and one of them recognized me in soft games and said, oh, hey, Ryan. And actually says to me, I really appreciated what you guys, that podcast that you guys did
[07:29] about Halo 5 because there were two factions within 343 about how to handle the campaign,
[07:42] which, how it was going to go, and my group lost. so basically saying that there was division about that campaign and the way they took it
[07:54] within the studio and there were people that ultimately felt the same way that we ended up feeling and that felt like it wasn't the way to go so yeah
[08:06] I hope I'm not speaking out of school I'm not naming any names or anything and again a lot of those people probably sadly were the right offer or just moved on anyway So I hope that not inappropriate to say that story But I always thought that I always found that really interesting that like I sure stuff like that happens at development studios all the time right Where it a creative enterprise and some people have one idea of how to best express that creative idea
[08:39] and other people on the team might have another idea. And that was just really interesting to me that they pulled me aside and were like, Hey, there was a group of us that didn't want to go the way that that went,
[08:54] and they appreciated the criticism that we levied at the time. Yeah, they probably took that preview back to everyone else and said, hey, see, I told you all. But no, it's like, you know, especially creative groups,
[09:08] they're not monoliths. There's always going to be a story. And this was 11 years ago at this point. So, you know, that was just amazing. Hopefully the statute of limitations on that's explained. Yeah, for sure.
[09:20] So, yeah, so what do you make of Frank's three potential paths there? I mean, I think they all make sense in some way or another. You know, of course, things are easier said than done,
[09:34] but as someone who has been with the franchise since Bungie, like, he would know best. Or, yeah, I imagine he has, like, an attachment and a vision of how those things can go. I think the most interesting part of it is the third point he made about translating to the quote-unquote Activision comfort zone.
[09:53] And that's something that I would both be, like, that's in my head what I don't want to happen. But I also understand why that might have to happen.
[10:06] and this is kind of like the whole vision for Halo Infinite is to break up campaign and multiplayer and turning multiplayer into an ongoing suite that can evolve separate from the campaign.
[10:22] Yeah. And I always thought Halo Infinite was going to double down on that. I don't know if it was kind of that, but again, as we've mentioned many, many times, that the Halo Infinite multiplayer did not get the support that it needed. but he's right about Activision
[10:37] like they have a pipeline they have a reputation for like yeah constant updates you might not be a Call of Duty fan but like we mentioned last episode too you can't deny that Call of Duty ships on time and that they maintain a player base
[10:51] and you know that is also like winged a little bit in the eye in the evident by Black Ops 7 but there's a lot of factors that go into that but Call of Duty is a powerhouse for a reason,
[11:05] and maybe you can't directly apply a lot of that ethos into Halo, but you can certainly learn something from it, right? Right. And for Halo, there are times in which I dreamed about a multiplayer suite
[11:21] that's ongoing like once a year. You're going to get a major update, like new maps and new modes or tweaks or whatever the case might be. That would be cool. to have a Halo thing that is ongoing and existing
[11:33] in the way that we thought Infinite was going to be. But on the campaign side of things, I think one thing that is really interesting that he emphasized, and for a good reason, is he keeps talking about how make sure it stays a sandbox.
[11:49] Because that's the magic in Halo. You have missions, right? But you have open-ended ways in which you can tackle them. And especially when it comes to co-op, having that sandbox is
[12:01] that's part of Halo's identity and it's like he emphasizes not losing that. Don't just make linear missions in a Halo campaign. Think about how it should be a sandbox. And I think that's
[12:13] something that the Infinite Campaign became an open world. I think that's like a logical extension of how Halo campaigns have been built and their levels were built. But you don't have to do that. You can still have this idea of a big open area that
[12:25] you can tackle from multiple angles and just have these big firefights that feel organic, that feel massive, and also dynamic because the enemy AI is interesting in that way So he kind of right on all fronts It just a matter of what Activision ends up deciding to do with the franchise with this team that they still building
[12:46] So you said that item number three is the one you're kind of most afraid of. I don't say this with glee, but I think number three is
[12:58] the most likely path forward. Just knowing how Activision, somewhat knowing how Activision works. I don't work there. And what Xbox wants out of it. Exactly. Exactly. Like, the Call of Duty cycle
[13:12] has been three teams with a lot of support studios all contributing a lot on three-year cycles. I don't think we're going to see, like,
[13:24] a complete Call of Duty-like machine where we get three teams They've talked about they're going to build a new team. They talked all about that last week of what we think that might look like.
[13:38] But I don't think there's going to be like three teams, and I don't think we're going to be getting a Halo every year the way we do Call of Duty. But I do think it's going to be like, it is going to be like that same machine-like clockwork of,
[13:54] we're going to get a Halo every three years is how I think it's probably going to go. Yeah, that'd be cool. That'd be sick, man. But yeah, another interesting point he brought up is like curating talent.
[14:09] And when you mentioned like people from Bungie and like ex-Bungie people, and it's like in the wake of, you know, Bungie has had massive layoffs, especially when Destiny 2 was being sunset, was being sunset.
[14:24] That's just like a talent drain. And, you know, it depends on how Activision is building the team. Are they pulling from people internally? Are they doing a mix of people they already have? And are they hiring a little bit here and there?
[14:38] Probably all three of us, I would say. Yeah, yeah. And, like, there's a lot of talent out there. Every time you see layoffs, it's like, damn, I hope they can, like, stay in this business somehow. And, I mean, like, the ALA Studios was right there, too, and they just got hit.
[14:53] So, yeah, it's just a complicated thing. But there are people out there who have worked on incredible shooters, who have touched Halo. They're out there. So it's like a good Halo under the Activision name is not out of,
[15:09] like that's not out of question. It's just a matter of making sure that they do it right with the right people and with the right vision. Yeah. I think they're going to do number three, but of the three tabs that Frank laid out,
[15:23] Path number two is the one I would most like to see. And I'm sure that's not like some hot take. I would love to see a Doom 2016-like
[15:35] reinvention of Halo. I'm already on record from last week saying that I think they're absolutely going to reboot it at this point. So it's like, yeah, let's just reinvent the whole damn thing.
[15:47] To your point about sandbox, there are core pieces of Halo that need to survive the same way that there were core pieces of Doom that needed to stay intact for Doom 2016 and onward.
[16:02] But, yeah, I hope that they go the reinvention route. That would be my desire. Yeah. I just want to see what other people can do with the Halo brand. Yeah. Whether it be good or not, maybe it's kind of beside the point,
[16:16] but, I don't know, fresh ideas, I'm not opposed to that. We shall see. We're probably going to have to wait a few years to find out even remotely what they're thinking about, what they're planning.
[16:28] But, uh...
[16:51] you