---
title: 'DF Direct Q&A: Oblivion Remastered - Can Switch 2 Optimizations Fix PS5/PC/Xbox Versions?'
source: 'https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wd_prnNhELY'
video_id: 'Wd_prnNhELY'
date: 2026-08-19
duration_sec: 3154
channel: 'Digital Foundry'
---

# DF Direct Q&A: Oblivion Remastered - Can Switch 2 Optimizations Fix PS5/PC/Xbox Versions?

> Source: [DF Direct Q&A: Oblivion Remastered - Can Switch 2 Optimizations Fix PS5/PC/Xbox Versions?](https://youtube.com/watch?v=Wd_prnNhELY)

## Summary

In this episode of Digital Foundry Direct, the team discusses the performance issues plaguing Oblivion Remastered across platforms, particularly whether Switch 2 optimizations could fix the PS5, PC, and Xbox versions. They also delve into VRAM longevity for next-gen consoles, Nintendo's strategy for exclusive Switch 2 titles, the murky future of Xbox Helix, and the reliability of Steam Deck verification.

### Key Points

- **Introduction and Merch Shoutout** [00:05] — The hosts introduce the show, discuss the UK heatwave, and promote the new Digital Foundry pint glass available at store.digitalfoundry.net.
- **Oblivion Remastered Performance Issues** [01:28] — A viewer question highlights the game's poor performance across platforms, suggesting the original Gamebryo engine wrapped in Unreal Engine 5 causes stutters and lack of scaling, even on high-end PCs.
- **Bethesda's Response and Switch 2 Port** [02:23] — Following the Switch 2 release, Bethesda acknowledged feedback and stated they are looking into bringing Switch 2 optimizations to other platforms, though the existing versions remain unfixed.
- **Analysis of the Four Key Issues** [04:01] — Tom outlines the four main problems: unstable frame pacing at 30 FPS, hitching, crashing, and degrading performance. He notes that the Switch 2 port still exhibits hitching and frame pacing issues, but crashing was not reproduced in his testing.
- **Engine Conjecture and Switch 2 Port Quality** [10:12] — The team agrees the performance issues are consistent with the original engine's limitations. The Switch 2 port is visually impressive with RT reflections and Lumen, but retains the core problems, making it hard to recommend.
- **VRAM Longevity and Next-Gen Consoles** [16:57] — A viewer questions if VRAM is overemphasized, using the 3090 vs 5080 as an example. Oliver clarifies that while a 16GB card may run next-gen games well, it might not match console-equivalent settings if consoles ship with 30GB, but he predicts PS6 will have 20GB.
- **Nintendo's Exclusive Strategy** [25:26] — The team discusses how Nintendo can focus on Switch 2 exclusives, unlike Sony and Microsoft. Oliver attributes this to Nintendo being the primary publisher, setting the pace, and understanding that building a successful platform leads to greater long-term sales.
- **Xbox Helix Strategy and Positioning** [32:27] — A viewer questions the viability of Xbox Helix. The team notes the strategy has become murky under Asha Sharma, who seems to be pivoting back to a hardware anchor, but the vision remains unclear, and pricing will be a major challenge.
- **Steam Deck Verification Criticism** [41:12] — A viewer criticizes Valve's verification process, citing poor performance of AAA games like Crimson Desert and Halo. Oliver explains that Valve's criteria focus on input, seamlessness, system support, and display, with performance being only one of four boxes, leading to misleading 'verified' labels.
- **Epic and Unreal Hardware** [46:02] — A viewer asks if Epic will work with console/GPU makers to influence hardware. The team believes Epic already has significant influence but is unlikely to create its own hardware, as it thrives on open ecosystems and adapting engines to existing hardware.

### Conclusion

The episode highlights the ongoing technical challenges in game performance, the strategic differences between platform holders, and the importance of clear communication and realistic expectations in the gaming industry.

## Transcript

this the latest edition of the DF DirectX Q&A show. I say cool because uh the UK has just made its way through its fifth heat wave of the year and uh we've we've emerged unscathed. It looks like cool weather from here on out, but who
knows? Uh joining me to discuss the questions this week first of all um Tom >> Hello. Uh, all of that is for not, I think, because I've kept the windows closed and the fan off in this room for acoustic reasons. Um, but it'll be fine.
here. >> It'll be It'll be fine. Yeah. [laughter] And also joining us, Oliver McKenzie. Hello. >> Yes. The weather's been pretty good in Vancouver, but regardless, I've stayed
chilled in my apartment with my mini split unit insulated from any heat and any consequences in here. So, I really couldn't tell you too much about the >> Yeah, >> very pleased to lovely. [laughter]
>> But before we go on, uh I just want to make a shout out here. We've updated the digital foundry merch store. We have our new pint glass. Yes, you can now consume your beverages in pint like configuration with our special deer
glass. Highly recommended. Do check it out. store.digitalfoundry.net. Okay, so let's tackle our first topic. A question here that comes from what does dog need with a starship? Good question. Question/ comment about the Oblivion
Oblivion Remastered lack of performance on multiple platforms. So my cursory engine called Gamerio for this game doesn't work very well with multiple cores/threads. So one could assume that that's why even with six available cores
probably still limited by the performance and throughput of a single [clears throat] with the Unreal Engine shell must completely block the single causing these horrible stutters and lack
of scaling even with [snorts] big gum PC rigs. That's just my guess as a non-game programmer. But do we have any evidence to this effect? As an aside, it's a shame the game program isn't open source. Maybe somebody could take a
crack at it and fix the issues if Bethesda isn't capable of fixing things throwing at them. So, this question comes in the wake of the release of um um Oblivion Remastered for Nintendo Switch 2 last week where um essentially
there was a lot of demand from Bethesda to actually go back to the existing versions of the game, Xbox, PC, and PlayStation to um improve them because have never really been fixed. And you know, the evidence of a switch to port
on the one hand does confirm that there is ongoing development with Oblivion Remastered, but it doesn't extend to actually fixing what I think we could safely say is a pretty broken game. Um there's also some conjecture that there
there's also some conjecture that there are um uh optimizations for the Switch 2 are um uh optimizations for the Switch 2 version and um yeah um maybe those optimizations could be brought across to um the existing versions of the game. We
from Bethesda Game Studio. We've heard your feedback asking for an additional patch, an additional patch for Oblivion Remastered. The Nintendo Switch 2 optimizations that we are looking into bringing to other platforms and we will
share more when we are able. Um Tom, first of all, I believe that the um justified. the concept of actually bringing out an entirely new version of Oblivion Remastered when the existing game hasn't been touched for over a year
and has profound issues. Um, I think it's a fair comment to say, well, hey, got two questions to you. Could you could you just sort of sum up the existing issues with um Oblivion Remastered? I mean, we've done it
of recap. >> Yeah. a health check on the game >> and um it failed. I think it's [laughter] fair to say. Um do you think there are optimizations in the Switch 2 version that could be brought to bear in
in attempting to fix that uh particularly poor showing? >> I mean, when you release a tweet like that, you're releasing it in the context of there being so many performance issues. So, when they, you know, use the
word optimization, I'm hoping they're looking at one of the big three with the existing code. Uh, the the unstable frame pacing at 30, the hitching, and frame pacing at 30, the hitching, and the crashing. Um, you know, and oh,
>> Fourth. >> Yes. So, there's the four things that they had uh on the sort of to-do list for any version to be honest. not Switch 2, but the Switch 2 presented a kind of a fresh chance to have a go at it. And
you know, they've got the team at Virtuous and Bethesda working side by side on this. The it's true that the original coding behind the scenes, the skeleton, as Todd How put it, the bones of the original game are in place, which
means that there is this segmented world design where there will be hitches at certain points in the open world. less of an issue in dungeons and cities. But what platform we've been playing on,
PS5, Xbox, Switch 2, there's a specific point in my run, which I mean, sure if you've seen my coverage of Oblivion so far, uh, I've done it repeated times, there's always that point in the world where it just tanks down to, you know,
sub 120 millisecond frame times, what have you. So that is obviously still there on switch 2 and that has not been addressed. Uh the hitching side is not addressed because it's part and parcel with the original Gamerio coding
with the original Gamerio coding underneath the UE5 layer. Um then there's obviously the the stut like the uneven frame pacing at 30. I think we knew that was going to happen either way given it was wasn't solved to this
point a over a year on on PS5 and Xbox. And then there's uh the state of crashing as well. Crashing is interesting because we achieved it consistently on PS5 and Xbox by running through a gamut of saves and just like
banking on a memory leak. Basically, like 20 saves in and uh loading each one in turn, you'd get there and it'd crash, which uh I didn't uh managed to achieve on Switch 2 in the time I had with it. I actually set up exactly the same saves
in all the exact same points. I was very meticulous about it and got to the point where I was going through all of them and that didn't crash it. What did crash it was just playing the game regularly and u relying on the autosave to get me
back to life after being killed by an enemy. And that did. Now, I've heard a few comments uh saying similar that they had issues with just reloading, going to the uh an autosaved um save slot and coming back. It just
you've got to kind of quit out to the menu. So, I that might be the point that menu. So, I that might be the point that they've fixed honestly. Um because they they've fixed honestly. Um because they the the uh theory we had was that it was
a memory leak. And that leads us to the fourth bit, which is the degrading performance. There's no evidence of that here. Like I I wasn't able to, at least with a 30 FPS cap in Oblivion on Switch 2. Uh there's
performance by playing more and more based on what I've tried, which was also at 30 and the quality modes on the other PS, you know, PS5 and Xbox versions. So >> I'd say inconclusive on that front. Crashing the the lack thereof when
Crashing the the lack thereof when loading loads of saves is maybe um you know positive. Maybe that's where the word optimization has come in and that that's where that has been uh put into effect. Uh but yeah, I think um we
talked about this after my video went live uh over Slack and was saying, well, I didn't put like a firm conclusion in right at the end of my video about did their statement come to fruition. Did they actually fix any of the issues? And
I think on all four counts, it's it's hard to be conclusive and especially when three of those points, two of those points at least are, you know, still in place. You can still see the stuttering, the uneven frame pacing, and the uh
hitching. and the other two, the crashing and the degrading performance are, you know, they're still there and it all you can't really assess them with the 30 FPS cap. So, yeah, I'm very curious. Maybe it's more bug fixes.
Maybe there's optimizations that we can't see that would need to reach out to them for uh the development team, but from what I can see, there's just not nothing to get my teeth into in terms of something to be positive about for a
future PS5 patch. >> Right. Yeah, I think that's the bottom line that the the conclusion I came away from your video, Tom, was basically that um the key issues that we identified in the existing versions of the game. Um
possibly with the exception of the memory leak thing. I mean, it looks like business as usual really, doesn't it? It's Oblivion Remastered. And on the one hand, um the the quality of the remastering itself was never really u a
point of contention. It was basically the technical performance of the game. Uh, and I think the way they've actually managed the um um the the conversion to Switch has been quite intelligently done. The cutbacks are are there, but
they're not in any way intrusive to the point where you feel it's >> um not a good game from that perspective. The um uh the turnout is certainly a good deal better than the Nintendo Direct footage that we saw for
over the place. There are some real issues there. So in that sense, okay, it's it's it's a pretty good port, but it's a pretty good port that unfortunately retains the key problems that the existing versions had. So I'm
not sure to the extent which they can actually fix it. And going to the um the comments made uh here by what does dog need with a starship? >> Um uh well as to whether it's single correlated or not um
obviously we don't really know unless we had like a performance analyzer which we looking in but you know it is the existing original engine essentially running um wrapped within Unreal Engine 5. So it's a pretty good conjecture to
be made. Either way, the physical evidence of of the behavior is certainly consistent with that original engine and it would need significant overhauling to to um >> fix it and they didn't fix it for the
other versions. It doesn't look like they fixed it here. Um thoughts, Oliver? they fixed it here. Um thoughts, Oliver? Yeah, from what I understand or what maintaining state between gamerio and UE5 and how prone to that is that
the crashing behavior we've seen and some of the hitching behavior we've seen in particular when you're crossing over cells in Oblivion the kinds of problems hitching you tend to see there, the degraded performance in terms of that
mixing and matching between the original code and the UE5 code. But I think there could be some element, some interaction that's causing problems. Um, but I mean on on the positive side, Switch 2 does suggest, I think, that if you scale back
maybe object count and draw calls a little bit, you can actually get the game into a okay, sort of, not maybe not really, but okay [laughter] in some respects. Um, stay on on on worse hardware. And I think what that suggests
possibly is that if you took those that same bucket of compromises, which are pretty steep from a visual perspective, right? But if you take that same bucket that to a device like the PS5 or Series X or something, you might actually get a
assume. >> Um, so I think that to me is those compromises on that class of hardware? Perhaps not, but maybe it's a possibility. I don't know. Um, the other performance issue that that really does
uneven frame pacing. We've seen this a lot on Switch 2. Really, it shouldn't occur. some developers just don't seem to have gotten the memo and apparently Virtuous is is one of those developers. Unfortunately, I'm I'm kind of of a
because it is really impressive visually. Like I'm super glad they managed to maintain the RT reflections. The Lumin GI presentation looks very modified full fat lumin kind of like we
saw with layers of fear where maybe you know they're making some cuts curtailing like this but they're achieving a substantially good lighting presentation from Tom's footage >> that's pretty cool but I'm kind of torn
because the port itself is impressive in some ways right very pleasing port would 2 no [laughter] I would not but I wouldn't want to play it on any other console hardware either. So, hey, that at least suggests some
kind of broad parody in terms of >> we achieved an unacceptable of, but would you want to play it? You know, that's another kind of question. And I think with these games that run with unlocked frame rates, stuttering,
frame pacing issues, >> it kind of mix and match these in a kind of outcome, right? It's just not a satisfying experience. box.
outcome. >> I'm totally not with you. Sorry. Oh, yeah. It's just that um there was a ceiling right of our what we expected versions and >> it came it comes remarkably close like
you're going through the first dungeon and you see the enemies up close the new models the lighting it's actually quite I'm I was genuinely impressed and it as I'm I was genuinely impressed and it as you say it's heartening to see the UI5
layer side of the Oblivion remaster thriving on switch two hardware like that the features are intact the lumen is there uh that that level of fidelity is possible in future titles using U5 on that that system and obviously they
won't be encumbered by the game stuff in the background like other games you know will go on to do different things so that that's that was good news so on the visual level great on a fundamental sort of the bones part of the package it's
actually it's just woeful I think about got about halfway actually 3/4 of the way through the video I was making and I was kind of leaning towards ah the was kind of leaning towards ah the performance is is bad. But I mean, you
know, if you've made your piece with the PS5 version was the original line I had in my script. If you made your piece with the PS5 version, you're kind of in a similar ballpark. But then I found this atrocious like one two second
stutter which I put in the video and I just I then realized okay there's there's no way this is even similar to the PS5 version. This is Switch 2 stuff that it just likely CPU based limitations handling all this and that
just tips it over into hard to recommend that disappointing frustrating. >> yeah, I mean when you're showing zero FPS on the frame rate counter, that's a >> that shouldn't make it into a shipping game. You know, call me your crazy old
>> but uh >> give us one one frame a second at least. >> No, no, no. It was zero. It was on your graph. I know. >> Um yeah, the whole memory the Well, the performance degradation thing which we
we thought was a memory leak. I mean, if it wasn't in Switch, sorry, Series S and it's not in Switch 2, it again, is there is there an actual optimization there, or is there actually some sort of um uh different reason behind the performance
degradation that you saw on Series X and PlayStation 5? I just don't think that um I think there's there's the hope here that you know well over a year after release that um there would be attempts to fix some of the primary issues that
and in the meantime a new version has come out and now we're being told which we can roll back into the previous versions. um call again you know
priorities surely the priority should have been to fix the existing versions first >> I mean it's it's all a bit weird but um issues and you highlighted four of them there there's the possibility that one
there there's the possibility that one has been fixed and that's not great >> um I'm be interested to see I mean we've got the data we've got um archive data of each of the um phases of the game so if and when there is a patch We'll go
>> Yeah. >> Okay, let's move on. Question here from Marcus. Hi, Foundryman. Exclamation point. Following Oliver's discussion of nextg PC requirements, are we perhaps overemphasizing VRAM as a measure of
longevity? The 3090 versus 5080 seems like a useful test. 3090 has 24 GB, but surely its compute and RT performance will become limiting eventually. Meanwhile, a modern 16 GB card may not always match PS6/Helix
texture geometry settings, but could still deliver a very similar 60 frames pers experience at slightly reduced settings, especially with a long PS5 crossgen period and technologies like new texture compression. Could 16 GB
become a settings limitation rather than a genuine longevity cliff? In other words, should we distinguish between the hardware needed to match nextG consoles exactly and the hardware needed simply to have a good nextG experience? I hope
you have a good week exclamation point. Uh well, Jerry's out on that. We'll see, won't we? Um Oliver, so yeah, this was um a question that we were discussing in a Q&A recently where it's like, you know, what PC specs do you need to match
or what we believe the next generation consoles are going to be? And the general received wis wisdom on the internet is that okay it's going to be kind of like 5070 Ti 5080 performance.
>> But uh you certainly stirred up a hornet's nest by saying well actually if they've got that much more memory maybe you'll need a 5090. you'll need a 5090. >> And um yeah Reddit went bananas.
>> Do you want to clarify what you meant and what do you think of Marcus's point? I do want to clarify what I said a bit because I think what I said possibly was a bit more inflammatory in the moment than what I intended to convey which is
basically that you look at the question that we were asked originally and it was basically uh can we be reasonably confident what hardware could you buy games targeting the PS6 generation would run at optimized settings in 60 fps now
I took targeting the PS6 generation and optimized settings to mean console equivalent cuz that's what we mean generally when we say optimize settings or even in some cases better than the consoles right judging from Alex's test
that's kind of how we use that terminology um so will a 16 GB card give you good experience in PS6 and Helix games I think if the next generation games I think if the next generation consoles ship with 30 GB plus um even if
they do I think a 16 GB card will give you a good experience in those titles because games developed for those systems will also be developed for PS5 for the most part. And they'll also be developed to be look to look good on the
vast majority of PCs which will have cards with, you know, 8 GB, 16 GB, 10 GB, whatever. I think they'll probably run in some respect okay on those cards, at least okay on those cards. But will they offer a console equivalent fullon
console level settings? If PS6 ships with 30 gigs, probably not. Maybe you'll that'll mean losing the strand here. Maybe that'll mean losing uh texture down RT settings. Maybe that'll mean using lower resolution shadow maps,
right? Lower resolution cascades, whatever. Um it might still look good, but it might not be at that same level because if you have 30 GB on hand, Doesn't matter. Maybe we do get some
all kinds of crazy technologies. But if you have 30 gigs and of that let's say you know 26 gigs however many gigs 25 that maybe you're using 20 gigs for graphics. You know I'm not I'm not
This is just how things go tend to go on the consoles. But with that said I think even though earlier leaks from the likes of Kepler_L2 they said PS6 would have 36 30 gigs rather and Helix would have 36 gigs. Um,
which makes sense because 30 gigs is a supported configuration on a 160-bit bus, which is what has been reported the PS6's memory bus is going to be. Um, I don't think Sony will ship 30 gigs on PS6. I think the more likely capacity at
this point is 20 gigs, which is also supported on a 160bit bus with 2 GB modules, or I guess 4 GB modules, but could be 2 GB modules and like a 10 module configuration, clam shell, whatever. Um, I think that makes more
sense with current memory prices. So, I guess I guess what I would my overall conclusion to this whole question is like I think a 5070 5070 Ti, 9070, 12 to
like I think a 5070 5070 Ti, 9070, 12 to 16 gigs should run you really well in a lot of games for a good long time to come. You know, think about the next 3 4 years. I think it'll be fine in the vast majority of titles. But if next
generation consoles ship with 30 GB, especially if they ship with 30 GB, um I think over time you might be out of luck. And I think because we, you know, as this user is pointing out, because we have games that are doing PS5 crossgen,
do you need strict console equivalents? Like let's say the advantage of Helix is here and they've whacked up texture resolution. They've whacked up shadow to have a good experience? I would say no. Right? So there's a lot of
complication here, but I I think this if you basically take it as read that nextG consoles have a ton of memory, then yeah, to to to match them, you'll need a need a lot of memory. But do I think that's going to happen at this point? Uh
because that'll be really really expensive to match. >> Yeah, just to clarify here that um console specs were basically finalized at the SOC level likely years ago, right? So in terms of like changing
direction on next generation consoles, there's very limited latitude available essentially they can change clock speeds for example. Um they can um but crucially they can add or they can subtract memory. Now obviously with the
subtract memory. Now obviously with the PlayStation 4 era um there's strong evidence that they added to the PlayStation 4 went from 4 GB to 8 GB. I've seen documentation that said it the PS4 had 4 GB of um of memory and um
there was a big surprise in February 2013 when actually turned out it was eight. >> So I'd seen the documents. So you know direction but equally you can go in the other and um I always thought that 30 36
other and um I always thought that 30 36 GB of memory um was profigger. I thought memory bearing in mind what we're seeing with PCs now, you know, doing 24 with with 24 GB of of of overall memory. You know, that's that was kind of
surprising. Um, so I wouldn't I wouldn't be surprised if they pull them back. I wouldn't be surprised if they also redouble their efforts on your texture compression because it's seems like an obvious win uh in order to mitigate a
obvious win uh in order to mitigate a loss of physical memory. Um, but the truth is we don't really know. Yeah, I kind of see where you're coming from there. And it's an interesting comparison there uh that Marcus comes up
comparison there uh that Marcus comes up with the 3090 and um the 5080, which is essentially a compute versus memory debate there. I mean, the the 5080 is if you're gaming today, the 5080 is a lot better than a 3090. [clears throat]
So, I can see where he's kind of coming from there. Uh have any thoughts on this >> It would be echoing your point. I think uh that I know a few developers uh that are using neural compression algorithms to cut down on install sizes, but the
net benefit also is on memory compression as well. And yeah, it seems like the path forward for working smarter with the memory you've got in a climate where there's just a not so much uh availability of memory. So I think
that's likely the the well the the way things will go and uh the way we'll save Yeah, I'm really interested to see how this all plays out. And you know, there is the PlayStation handheld, which, you know, it could be the machine that
actually ships next year, and it might sort of stave off the whole PS6 question for another year, but certainly all of the messaging and indications from Microsoft have been basically saying Helix is uh 2027. So, that is somewhat
>> Okay, let's move on. Okay, then next question. And it's an interesting one for sure from uh Yotssuya. Uh the PS5 um Series XS spent years in crossgen territory, and yet with the Switch 2,
development, and it's now squarely focused on Switch 2. This has given the Switch 2 an already ample library of reasons to buy the system. How are Nintendo able to pull this off? Interesting question, right, Oliver?
because we've been told by, you know, everybody basically in development that it's uh Crossjet is here to stay for a very very long time. But Nintendo haven't really got the memo, have they? They have concentrated on producing
exclusive experiences for Switch 2. There's no hint of like, you know, Mario Kart World coming to Switch One or anything like that. Um, they have anything like that. Um, they have managed to pull it off, but how?
Yeah, I I honestly think that um because Nintendo kind of ends up setting the pace for their own hardware in terms of what the software landscape looks like, I think they can kind of make calls that are a bit more aggressive than other
the lower cost their games enables it. But like if you look at where Nintendo sits on any given Switch system, you know, I believe on Switch One, they were responsible for about half of game revenues on Switch One. Um, so I think
that they can basically set the pace for people and do things like shipping a tin a gigantic game like Mario Kart World on day one, even though they're shipping into an install base of zero systems initially, right? And even though the
more prudent short-term financial move would be to ship the game on original Switch systems, um I think they just do it because they understand that in the long run, if they build a successful platform, that means greater game sales
then there's a big cut of third party sales that move to that system if they which is going to be their flagship platform for probably the better part of a decade as far as we know. Um, I think the other platform holders don't have
the same latitude because their lineups are more third party dominated and Microsoft and Sony are going to have a heck of a time convincing the likes of Take 2 and Activision and EA to stop shipping on last gen consoles so they
PlayStation 6. I just don't think that's what they like to do and so they kind of just go with the flow and they ship a lot of crossgen software. Nintendo doesn't doesn't want to do it. Um Nintendo is really does believe in the
console generation, really does want to ship uh new units, their new consoles. Um and Sony ends up in this situation where they still have like 30 odd million PS4s being used every month because they haven't fully committed or
they did not fully commit the PS5 for a long period in the same Nintendo has with Switch 2. So I think it's just a difference of Nintendo is the primary publisher on Switch by a gigantic margin. So they just set the set the
rules for how things go. >> Interesting. Yeah. Tom, I mean, in about the challenges facing the next generation of consoles in that they need to find a meaningful difference in order to get people to move on from like, you
know, PS5 to PS6 or whatever. And that's difficult if you don't have exclusive games for that platform. And Nintendo seems to have actually >> done exactly that, delivered exclusive games. and uh definitely just uh almost
turned their back on the Switch one. >> Yeah. And credit to them honestly. I'm looking at a list of the exclusive Switch 2 games and I'm running through my mind what would be possible on Switch One. Like in in terms of the, you know,
we we said at launch Mario Kart World, they've expanded the number of carts to life very difficult on the original Switch, at least, you know, theoretically. Um, Donkey Kong Bonanza, all the physics there. It's tricky.
There are some cases where I think maybe it's maybe it could have been possible. Yoshi and the mysterious book possible. I don't know, >> But it's uh that that comes down to I think a bit of shrewdness on the in
terms of the the business making. They they've done this Nintendo historically every generation they've committed hard to their new uh new machine and it it's a promise. It's a pledge to the the audience, right, which we don't
audience, right, which we don't necessarily have on PS4 and PS5. Um, and you know, there's there's always one exception that Zelda usually goes crossgen right at the start. Uh, there's usually a, you know, Twilight Princess
usually a, you know, Twilight Princess or what have you, but it's uh outside of that, beyond that window, it's only on the new console. And that makes it way Honestly, there's also the technical side of it, which I I think is um
is it's true that there's a bit of a plateau in terms of what we're getting plateau in terms of what we're getting out of each new generation with the PS5. With Switch 2, we're still looking at sort of a level back in terms of what uh
a lot of things that were possible on PS5 and Series X. So, getting to Switch 2, we're now kind of have that parity in terms of development uh capabilities in some respects. We're getting ports from
Street Fighter 5, Oblivion Remastered, uh, a lot of cross, you know, crossgen games are now possible with that tier of performance. So, uh, I think if we were to look at a Switch 3, we might be seeing Nintendo Switch strategies
because, you know, it might not be worth the squeeze for some developers to um, focus only on the next next Nintendo console. But yeah, so it makes interesting point because I don't think it's physically capable of producing
[laughter] some of these games on the Switch one without like massive the audience. >> So, you know, to a certain extent Nintendo actually delivered a proper generational leap in that regard and
that's kind of what we wanted to see really. I guess I kind of just took it as read a little bit in the question that yeah, if you if you did ship a version of Mario Kart World or Donkey Kong Badans as Tom suggested on Switch
Kong Badans as Tom suggested on Switch One, um I think you could do it, but it would compromise the game on Switch One number one and also compromise the game game around limitations of weaker system. Now, we know from Nintendo that
they did start development for both those titles and probably several others as far as where as far as we would probably understand on Switch One and then moved development over to Switch 2. So, we know that there's a version of
those games that was running on Switch One that could run on Switch One. 30 FPS. Maybe it would have had, you know, 10 racers. Maybe Donkey Kong Bonanza would have had smaller worlds and 30 FPS or whatever the case may be.
But uh that wouldn't sell Switch 2 as well if those titles number one existed compelling on Switch 2 because of gameplay decisions that were made >> to suit a much weaker class of hardware. >> Yeah, there's two buckets, isn't there?
There's tech reasons and business reasons. Like you can't convince me that Mario Tennis Fever couldn't run on Switch One. [laughter]
our next question. and it comes from Skyrim Fest 26 FPS edition. I once asked another console, would anything be lost? I think back then your conclusion was how Helix seems likely to have been
positioned, do you still hold that view? Personally, I see Xbox as having already mothership, fundamentally a software company that ships highquality but low volume hardware. I think we might all be
better off if they focused on producing high-quality games on reasonable budgets and timetables. Helix will end up being a distraction and risks being an embarrassing market failure that will only serve to illustrate the loss of
trust people have in Xbox as a hardware platform when it sells less than the Steam Deck. I think they're going to have to work pretty hard to achieve that have to work pretty hard to achieve that to be honest. Um but um Oliver, what are
your thoughts on this? I mean, I think the difficulty is that we've been trying to read the tea leaves on Microsoft's strategy for next generation for like, you know, a couple of years now since the rumors emerged of what um uh the
next generation Xbox is going to be. And since, to be fair, um Phil Spencer started talking about the concept of a more open machine, right? Um more open machine, right? Um >> right. Right at this point, I think it's
really difficult to answer this question because we don't know how like uh the positioning of Helix. It seems to have become a lot murkier since uh the Spencer era. It does seem to be the case that um
>> Asha Sharma has identified the need for an anchor, a hardware anchor for um an anchor, a hardware anchor for um Xbox, for Game Pass, for the platform, >> which does suggest a bit of an about face from the Spencer era where it was
basically okay, we need a machine, um you know, basically a game pass machine if you like um but we also want this proliferation of devices, so we don't really mind if you don't buy it. That seems to have changed, right?
>> Yeah, it does seem to have changed in the Asha era in part with her comments about the idea of allowing third party storefronts on a future Xbox console on Helix. She seemed to poo poo that idea or at least seemed like she was a little
bit unsure of herself or did not want to communicate too much in that idea. embracing it much more more wholeheartedly. She's also recommitted to game exclusives. We understand that there was a version of Gears of War
particular information on this, but this was widely reported by various outlets that was in development for PS5 and then it was cancelled seemingly right before it was shown for Xbox uh consoles and PC
right at the at the game showcase they ran back in June. Um, we also know that Asha has said there need to be new Xbox uh series updates, I think, bi-weekly, every two weeks uh for series consoles, new console software updates. And she
interesting messaging that accompanied certain Xbox price rises recently where they said, "Hey, you can pay with CLA. You know, pay for your new Series X that costs, you know, $700, $800 with CLA to alleviate the uh damage to your wallet."
the long term, that's not so good. So, I think they're trying to find ways to make Xbox Helix a mass market proposition, which is kind of difficult look when you look at what they're trying to achieve with it. It is not a
mass market product, as I think Sarah Bond put it. It's a premium product. designed for the mass consumer. It's designed as kind of an off-ramp from the console business for uh dedicated enthusiastic Xbox players. You know,
console, but they're going to try to get there. I don't know if it's going to be streaming. I don't know if it's going to be reduced spec hardware. I don't know the three. It's going to be something. So, I think yeah, totally. The the
completely on what Microsoft wants to do. In terms of the value of Helix, I mean, I think Helix seemed like an interesting idea to try to bring PC gaming and Xbox together and trying to improve that um the playability of of
the PC as a platform with a controller on a couch. I think that's great. Um, is I don't know. Maybe they are as the platform holder. Certainly Valve has and and certainly the Steam Machine and
But yeah, it just it's kind of up in the air. I'm really curious to see how they unveil the console formally and what it will end up looking like. Um, but at the moment, I just don't think there is a coherent vision for Xbox Helix that
they've changed their mind on a few key will will materialize in the final product. Tom. >> Yeah. The changing of the guard has and
there's been multiple you you can sense flip-flops within the released, what the specs are, what the vision is. So, it's very hard to get a grasp on a firm answer to this question from Skyrim Fest 26 FPS edition. this is
like what do you what how do we assess this fairly uh so early on um I think within Microsoft that they need to improve their messaging and whatever the
whatever they come out with next their their big uh push for their next their project Helix will have to be very tight on um what it does who it's for pricing
what what's the deal with exclusives on Xbox as A huge part of the value for me with Xbox has been uh looking 10 years back now the exclusives but in recent years less so. So uh yeah they they really
need to lock that down uh to make it clear if they want it to be more than a niche thing for the very enthusiast gamer and appeal to a broader spectrum of users then they need to really nail those points. I think the uh the Phil
basically looking forward or looking ahead rather to a time where uh it's probably not going to be costefficient to actually make a mainstream console anymore. And the the exit strategy if you like was basically Windows and that
perspective. you know, building a PC, it's very much um current market conditions and uh certainly if you're building your own PC, yeah, it's more expensive than it was, but you know, there are bargain forums, for example.
There are good deals occasionally on GPUs and uh CPUs and motherboards, etc., etc. So, you know, a kind of graceful generationlong transition away from a what's happening now with Asharma is that they've looked at the books and
they've said right okay well the vast majority of our revenues are actually coming from our console audience. We can't risk um sort of basically turning our back on on the console. We can't diversify as
Helix has actually got to be an anchor device for our audience uh to transition onto in order to enjoy playing the latest games. And um yeah, and as you
quite rightly say, Oliver, I think um the specs for Helix were designed to the specs for Helix were designed to basically put the console up against um offered and probably will still offer substantial value against built you know
buying a machine from um you know a mass volume producer like Dell for example uh just because of the nature of the SOC contains the CPU, contains the GPU, all pieces in one chip.
present value but from a different perspective, but you know, a mainstream console that's going to be really tricky. Um, yeah, and also Tom, you're because if the messaging does turn out to be, hey, buy it on Cler,
>> they're going to be ridiculed. >> They will be booed and taunted for that. So, it's going to be really difficult to actually come out with a plausible way to make this affordable or seem affordable. I'm curious as to what
they're going to do there. I just think it's a really really tricky situation, especially in a world where um I don't think they'll be able to guarantee because they're coming to PC as well. So, strictly speaking, the concept of
exclusive is already a thing of the past for Microsoft. The whole argument seems to be about uh whether it appears on PlayStation or not. Um [clears throat] PlayStation or not. Um [clears throat] yeah, that's it. Right, let's move on.
Lucas_. Hearing you guys talking about the state of Crimson Desert on Steam Deck reminded me of the Forks video about the latest Halo remake. The visuals were just atrocious looking on the Xbox uh ROG
Ally. I just checked and that game is Steam Deck verified as well. That kind similar chips. Um, at this point, Valve's verification means absolutely nothing. How are Valve getting away with false advertising like this? If a game
shipped on Switch 2 like that, the internet would explode. right, Oliver? I mean, what do you make of this? Because, um, um, obviously you've played a lot of AAA games on the Steam Deck. We did have that uh, series
running, which is, you know, can Steam Deck handle is are these games too big discontinued it because, in your words, it was becoming a bit depressing. >> So, where do you stand on this? I understand the appeal of wanting to
play a game like Crimson Desert or Halo Campaign Evolved on Steam Deck, but fundamentally they're just not good experiences. They're so messy, you know, low frame rates, miserable image quality, not very good. And I think that
pattern holds true for a wide number of titles that we see on Steam Deck nowadays that every time I see a new performance video pop up on the internet producing it, but I have eyes and I can see how games are running. It certainly
isn't very good. Um, I do think when Valve does their own analysis of whether games are Steam Deck verified or not Steam Deck verified, they seem to have priorities that are not quite my priorities when it comes to actually
evaluating whether a game is deck verified or not. Cuz to me, deck verified seems to just, as Valve puts it, the game works great on Steam Deck right out of the box. And then maybe for a game like Crimson Desert, maybe you'd
say it's it's playable. It's got that caution symbol. That's not actually a Deck. But when you look at what Valve is considering, they have four boxes. Basically, the first box is input, second box is seamlessness, third box is
system support, and fourth box is display. Only one of those boxes has running well. In their words, having good default settings. And even in that setting, they're really talking about,
in games supporting the default resolution of Steam Deck, which is 720p and 800p. So, I just think it's a matter of Valve underweing the category that I think is probably the most important for me. Like, if a game has controller input
inappropriate or if it shows a keyboard command or something at some point that I swat away with the on-screen keyboard, that's less of an issue for me second because one of those two
little bit of on-screen keyboard fiddling perhaps. But um obviously the frame rate situation can't be rectified with anything but a more powerful system which isn't forthcoming anytime soon. I can't imagine. So I I think Valve just
it comes to evaluating games for Steam are are just not the priorities that I have. And ultimately I I mean I'm kind of very skeptical of AAA on Steam Deck in the first place like you talked
about. um at least with respect to much more demanding titles, but I think more stringent when it comes to these games in particular with respect to >> Right. Okay. So, Tom, you don't actually own a Steam Deck, so you've not done a
huge amount of Steam Deck gaming and such, but um what would you want you in terms of, you know, from a consumer space uh consumerf facing perspective? What do you think Steam Deck verified should mean? It should say exactly on
they're going through spending the time to verify these things, performance should be a high priority. You know, there's there's if it's a fixed spec platform, it should be straightforward.
You know, is this actually running to a reasonable degree? And I suppose there's a bit of subjectivity, but if it's like 15 fps and you can barely, you know, it's just like 240p, then okay, let's just call it a
not say that it actually works and it's Steam Deck verified on any level. But uh yeah, so I I understand that we're very think there's even a there's a level where even most consumers would just say
that's just not acceptable. that's not playable and I'm not going to accept low frame rates, low resolutions, low settings. >> It's interesting because there was uh during the Steam machine PR period, you
that we expect a game to run at a minimum of 1080p or 30 frames per second there. >> And it doesn't seem to be a similar kind of threshold that applies to Steam Deck verified, which I find quite
interesting. >> Um yeah, let's move on. Um, final question here from Craig.wtf, which is actually his URL as well, which I thought was quite interesting. Salutations, Foundry Folk, exclamation
to Unreal Engine, is it only a matter of time before Epic start working directly with console and GPU manufacturers to influence how they're built? Further to machine to compete with the Steam Machine with Unreal hardware
acceleration built in. pie in the sky possibly, but stranger things have come possibly, but stranger things have come to pass. Stranger Things. Um, I don't know about that. Um, an engine manufacturer defining a a hardware
standard. That's quite the thing. Um, what do you think, Tom? Yeah, we've we've I mean, it's hard to get into the business now, but it's possible. I mean, them. Epic. Uh, they've got the storefront and they've got the engine,
the most ubiquitous engine out there. Um there's I I don't know. I I don't think it's really in their uh sphere of interest, let's say. Like they they they're thriving on what they've got in terms of uh supplying a
sort of a middleware engine and you know they've got enough going for them as they are. I don't know what Unreal hardware acceleration would I don't honest.
>> I'm not sure. I'm not sure that would really work for I mean I know UE5 titles there there are plenty right this pretty much every other game we cover is UE5 so hardware spec specifically built around UE5 in theory but also a bit of a
nuisance to have another hardware uh spec to juggle like yeah so I'm not on interesting idea >> it's an interesting idea but come on now
>> it's an interesting idea but come on now I I mean u um even steam which has a much bigger overall audience. I mean maybe it's not an engine manufacturer as such to the same scale as Valve. I mean they went to AMD for hardware. Um Sony
Microsoft went to AMD for hardware. I'd say that they still have much more of a sway on the industry in terms of overall trends than than Unreal Engine. I dare >> Yeah. I think the other thing of course is that um there is such a proliferation
is that um there is such a proliferation of devices now that you kind of um setting aside a device that specifically has um hardware optimizations for Unreal counterproductive because it would be a minority device compared to the majority
of devices out there. And I'm not sure what the win is for the consumer in that >> um I think also another thing to bear in mind Oliver is that you know you've got um hardware architects like Mark Cerny who pride themselves on actually going
out and speaking to developers when they're architecting the next systems speaking to Epic, right? >> Yeah. I think kind of underrated by this questioner is the possibility that Epic
already has enormous influence on the GPU designs that are out there and the Indeed, when you go back to the PS5's reveal, the kind of first piece of software, the first piece of rendering load you saw on that device publicly was
Lumen in the Land of Nanite, which was an epic UE5 demo. A great epic UE5 showcase running on PlayStation 5 development hardware, I believe. And so of Sony to define the next generation console spec. Of course, people like
Mark Cerny are speaking with Epic and and trying to work out what their they might want to be on next generation console hardware. But I actually think that Epic's story here is a little bit more complicated because Epic is pretty
rendering techniques that they pursue. Like when you look at Nanite, Nanite doesn't use mesh shaders. It uses a compute solution. doesn't necessarily also UE5 doesn't necessarily rely on hardware RT right it has a software RT
solution for its indirect lighting um and it works quite well so it can run in a wide variety of systems does not necessarily require hardware RT um and of engine development is much faster than the pace of console hardware
development and engines kind of adapt to the console hardware um we've seen this Megalytes is ideally suited for PlayStation fives but Epic managed to peg, whatever, they manage to make it work just fine. Um and so I think it's
much more the situation where consoles uh exist and and engines adapt. Um with respect to the idea that Epic could ship like an EGS box, an Epic Games machine, I don't know, Epic Games Store machine, um I don't really know that's going to
happen because Epic is is really inclined towards more open ecosystems. I a console. And also when you look at their business, it's an open platform business. It's Fortnite which exists on everything. It's Unreal Engine which uh
of platforms mostly third party games, right? That is not uh a closed platform business predominantly I wouldn't think. And also I don't understand how it would serve them to optimize the games around
a narrow uh small volume hardware product. Like doesn't make any sense at don't have a platform that would support that kind of machine. Like I don't think machine in the same way they would buy a Steam machine. I think the first thing
you do with your Epic Games Store machine that you buy from Epic is uninstall EGS, install Steam, and turn it into a Steam box. I don't think you it into a Steam box. I don't think you do too much with the EGS machine that
That's my own prediction. Who knows? But I mean, I don't think people care for >> So yeah, I don't I don't think it makes any sense. But I do think it makes sense But I do think they're already working with hardware vendors behind the scenes
to an extent we probably can't quite comprehend with public information. But everyone. >> Yeah. And what would happen if the uh Unreal Engine machine came out and then you know a game comes out running at
640p internal resolution? All hell would break loose. But conceivably it could happen. you know, he's [laughter] it can't sort of miraculously deliver infinite horsepower for Unreal Engine games that makes all of them look
>> True. >> Okay, that was the final question please do like, subscribe, share that sort of stuff, bell ringing, what have you. Um, [laughter] patreon.com/digitalfoundry.
Join us, support the team. Crucially important store.digitalfoundry.net that's all for muscle this one and we guess we'll see you in the next direct guess we'll see you in the next direct proper. Thanks for watching.