[00:00] I served 25 years with the ATF, infiltrating outlaw motorcycle clubs and running some of the agency's toughest undercover operations. And this is how crime works.
[00:13] how close they came to getting in an all out war. They were going When are we going to start taking over the territory?
[00:27] They're ready to go. So when I first got hired on by ATF, I was 24 years old. At that time, ATF was very heavily steeped in doing undercover work.
[00:43] I wrote motorcycles and and, many bikes and dirt bikes. The Brothers. My informant was the president at this time, so he kind of educated me
[00:55] on what this smaller club the brothers was all about. It's no different than if you look at any other criminal organization. We started at one point just being on the outside to actually becoming members.
[01:10] We were in there to try to get in as close to as many clubs as possible to the, you know, outsiders, Phantoms. There were all kind of clubs that we got into because we had that patch
[01:27] and because we had longevity with some of the members who were vouching credibility amongst other patches and especially in the criminal world. I mean, everybody always talks about how the outlaw motorcycle clubs are structured
[01:44] You know, where you have bosses, you have under bosses, There's elections. Who's going to be making the calls?
[01:58] At that time, I was the warlord or sergeant in arms. Sergeant arms is there to keep peace within the club. There were a couple times where members would get on line
[02:14] You'd have to give them a little. But slapping people was a is a good attention getter. Now, I will tell you that when you do these kind of undercover things,
[02:27] you know, things happen and people take notice of you You know,
[02:39] I've got as good as I gave, but however I survived it, you know what I mean? The Brothers, they were always at war with the Outlaws where there had been You'll see in these clubhouses.
[02:54] because, you know, at the witching hour, which is never good between 2 and 3, and would just pull out guns and just fire them in the clubhouse And the next day, you got probate prospects outside
[03:11] I mean, ridiculous crap. So when my case concluded in Ohio,
[03:25] I don't really think they were. I'm out at the much, but, you know, ATF being ATF, they offered being for cities. out to Las Vegas and bought a couple pints of meth out there.
[03:39] I said, what is it, back on eBay. So I had just finished my other investigation So I go out there,
[03:52] I move my informants out there, we get a house, we got everything set up. Las Vegas Metropolitan police, we work with Metro Jack Roberts, big Irishman. Fantastic guy. He goes, I'm guaranteeing you.
[04:06] if you go to his tattoo shop, inevitably he will walk out and recruit you So we drive down there, and I told my informant,
[04:18] You're getting a tattoo. And he ain't care for old school biker big. getting probably one of the worst tattoos I've ever seen in my life.
[04:33] Sharkey walks out from the back and he just starts asking us questions. So he goes to the back and he comes out with his of colors
[04:47] But of course we weren't going to give them that. He goes to Vegas. They used to have a big green pin on the back of their vest, and that's
[05:03] what do you guys think about maybe coming around? Sharkey brings us into the house and there's like ten of them in there. It was like, all right, you guys, you guys can hang around, which means,
[05:19] That means you go stand with a prospect out there and watch the bikes, You're worthy to be around us. Great. Vegas. because we'd already been buying drugs off
[05:31] But whatever we can get our hands on, you know, we were commodity brokers of whatever could be, you know, that we had ties back in the Midwest So I remember one time we were over on the over in LA
[05:48] and they decided that they were going to go hunt Mongols in the in the hills. And if they catch them, they're going to hopefully just beat them up or were. But it's ended up in shooting, stabbings and all that other kind of stuff.
[06:02] We also had a, an incident when we go back to the one member's house and they're like, okay, we got to go collect some money to go, and you guys are going to come with us and we drive to this trailer park.
[06:14] They rip the door off that and there's other trailers around. They rip the door off and we go in there, they grab the guy Then it's like,
[06:28] No. Yeah, there's three in the back bedroom and I'm looking at Tony going, oh, I and and I look, you know, I don't care what happens. So we go in to back and it's like a 3 or 4 year old and maybe a seven year old
[06:44] you put yourself between these kids, I go, I'm Load motorcycle parts, have taken his dope, his money. This dude screaming or screaming, yelling you to thought, somebody call the police.
[07:02] We get back in the car. I mean, obviously it's great evidence of a home invasion, kidnaping and everything. That was one of the major charges that we ended up convicting those members on.
[07:14] I go, what do you do? It's 3:00 in the morning. we're going on a home invasion, and I have your authority. You have meetings with the U.S.
[07:29] possibly happen with their understanding that it probably will happen. Obviously, if somebody gets killed. Different.
[07:41] But crimes of violence, acts of violence, they understand they're going to happen. And then, you know, they start doing a separate investigation on that.
[07:53] active and veterans that are affiliated with a lot of these bigger clubs. I mean, it's another brotherhood for them. It's excitement.
[08:08] and they end up losing everything. I don't know, year and a half into the Vargas case,
[08:23] what happened was we were all supposed to get our patch at the same time, meaning myself, my informant, and cause my buddy cause Darrin Kozlowski, he's another ATF agent who's worked in the Hollywood chapter.
[08:37] We were supposed to get our patch the following week. Well, let me preface early on, cause his informant who was bringing him in, gets T-boned
[08:51] and killed on a motorcycle cause had given him a business card from when he worked in Milwaukee before he transferred to to LA.
[09:03] Well, this all comes back around to play because the informant's dead. And I say cause knows he should not have used the name cause in the investigation. Well, they start checking around, and it's Darrin.
[09:17] So he's he was out doing something, and he comes back to his house, and they start questioning about where he'd been, what he'd been to one.
[09:31] So they take his patch He calls me and tells me what happened. Well, in the meantime, I hang up with him.
[09:45] the conversation with, we have a problem, your buddy, cause he's an ATF agent. But I've known that guy goes, now I go, what are you going to do?
[09:57] He goes, and we think he followed you out here to work. You. And when he saw you doing this, he got involved with the Vargas, too. I'm like, you know, I'm acting all distraught and whatnot.
[10:12] Why don't you just let's see. is to see how much damage does he have on you. And at that point, the light bulb goes off because in my mind, we're still good.
[10:25] Because they're looking at him, not looking at us. I go, you know what? I go, we may have to go dark for a while, Tony and I,
[10:40] And of course, I'm sitting here looking at the apartment. So of course I call ATF. But lucky we had at our case pretty much built up to then, which allowed us to do
[10:55] what we needed to do as far as arresting and search warrants and stuff. and that day were out killing an ATF agent. Absolutely it is.
[11:09] But in their mind, they think, you know, they bring in somebody from the outside. They have them do it and it doesn't tie back to them. motorcycle rally event down in Laughlin, right in Nevada.
[11:26] tens of thousands of bikers that you know, descend on this. And the two prominent clubs that descend on it used to be a You know, Vagos go down there, the Mongols show up right?
[11:41] And there's some stabbing and it all gets captured on tape. You never seen anything like that where, you know, you just got this masked chaos in a, in a, in a casino where there's thousands of people bullets, flying
[11:55] knives, flying, people getting beat up, you know, finally police descend upon it. You don't normally have these these type of of incidents However, you have the hell raisers ball where the Hells Angels
[12:10] and the pagans went at it in a big open platform. where people are going to see make it loud, meaning make sure everybody sees it and they have members that are willing to go to prison for it.
[12:24] You know, they don't care because they're heroes to to the club. you had that shooting that happened at the gas station. just it's getting more moreover or they're carrying less about who sees.
[12:39] So part of, you know, these investigations every now and again, So in in Operation Black Biscuit, when Jay Dobyns started his initial
[12:51] Let's start a chapter in Arizona. So with their permission, they started a chapter of Solo Angels.
[13:03] Well, that chapter consisted of an informant and all law enforcement. how close, how much they can get it. from the Hells Angels down in Mexico that they were aware of, and they knew,
[13:18] that the club was bigger than it was and expand that in the United States. We brought a bunch of guys in fluff and stuff is basically what we were.
[13:31] Then I get into a blue on blue Street theater, where I bring them along as either bodyguards or what have you. And then what happens is I'm sitting in a room,
[13:46] They bring in a bunch of money, vice versa. And we make the transfer and they leave and then we leave. They saw a bunch of drugs and a bunch of money
[13:59] And in their mind, okay, It's all play acting.
[14:14] I got a call from Tom Doyle with the Eastlake Police Department with some informants to possibly take a run at the Aryan Brotherhood Well, the whole purpose of this investigation was two pronged.
[14:31] It kind of widened on the gap where we were able to make some inroads So if you look at the Aryan Brotherhood, in my experience
[14:44] in dealing with them for over two years, there are prison based club. power white power, all you know, everything that goes The color is green.
[14:59] As long as there was a profit to be made, it was all about making money. So, you know, is is the racial aspect of it still there? Yes.
[15:11] But it doesn't sit as prominent because it's all about making the deal, was just supposed to be like, hey, we're going to go after this guy You know, he was manufacturing machine guns.
[15:27] He'll make machine guns if you want. I told him that you had been to prison with my dad and your name is Junkyard. And he goes, well, he goes, did you guys used to wrestle bears in bars?
[15:42] Three hours later, we go meet with this guy and So we're talking, talking, talking. And he had a construction company called AB construction.
[15:59] And what he would do is any guys who were getting out in Northeast so he could put them on the books as if they were working. About a week later, come back.
[16:12] They were they were kits that he put together. I mean, they were all powder coated, beautiful. because we're trying to track down where he's doing it.
[16:27] Well, I go, well, let's go for a big number. And then the whole thing changed from, you know, making machine guns to motorcycles.
[16:40] And he goes, We want to open up the first official Aryan Brotherhood motorcycle club.
[16:53] If it works, the intent is to spread it as quick as possible. He goes, order of blood. Well, when Hitler went to prison and all his officers, when they got out,
[17:07] he gave them the metal was called blood order in our backstopping everything. So we could talk intelligently about what was going on in prison,
[17:19] In a few occasions we had our patches made, but then on the front of the patch So these guys make no sense.
[17:31] I asked AJ, "What's our purpose?" northeast Ohio, eventually. We want to control everything in Northeast Ohio.
[17:45] Now, there are clubs that are affiliated with every nation. You know, there there's there are some in California that are affiliated. But for them to try to launch something on a national level, yes.
[17:57] AJ then says, why don't we go to this bar in in East Lake? I have no idea who he's bringing because up until this point, it's just him We go in, there were meat and we're talking to him.
[18:13] So now we're going to go debrief after everybody separate away. We're like, no idea. I know one guy was named JB, one guy was named Paulie,
[18:26] because we didn't have any background information on any of these guys. he was the man for their own brother for the state of Ohio.
[18:38] JB been down for 25 years for prison and had been in jail So we got criminal violent drug traffickers, right? Already in the past for ATF, the more violent, the more criminal
[18:52] you were, the more guns you had, the better target you were for us. And they're telling us to go to meetings and there's many more like us So we launched this investigation a full blow.
[19:07] branch support, we've got everything involved now. April 20th is our coming out date because it's Hitler's birthday. So we take this group photo a couple weeks later is going to be
[19:24] So it was a big deal. So we go and set up a tent gear, you know, supports order of blood and it has the big, thunderbolts. So for a few of us, they said you guys could wear the brand, which we did.
[19:40] We see these guys approaching a tent and all of a sudden they start smiling. couple, Nighthawks and other members, and they're just so happy to see us. it did open up a lot of opportunities for us because one,
[19:57] because we would go to all their functions where, you know, you go to events, and respect to the predominant club. they'd come pay homage to us before they would go to the Hells Angels.
[20:15] Cleveland started to dislike us a lot. So within the hierarchy of our motorcycle gangs,
[20:27] They only exist because the predominant club in that area allows them to exist. And what happens is they'll have coalition meetings where these other like whoever the predominant club is, we'll host it at different clubhouses
[20:44] that show up, sit out in the galley and they talk about things. That's how they extorted all these clubs.
[20:56] So it was in and if they didn't, then they pull their patch A lot of times if there's big events, they're the ones that they make stand out and do all the guard duty.
[21:10] A lot of the puppet clubs are also used for some of the criminal activity, because So they have members there and he support and
[21:22] We were traveling multi states and we got embedded We had criminals that were operating, especially the young ones.
[21:36] Hey is anybody interested in buying any drugs or guns? I mean, we had that whole side piece and so all the crooks were figuring, And we could do whatever we want with you, which was true.
[21:51] We were bringing in a lot of agents. And so females, the women that we brought in, which they're great. I had one that was, you know, my baby's mama.
[22:05] And then the other girls we were saying were mules for us. So our girls became great, great, great gatherers of information for us
[22:17] It was bikers. I mean, when I was in, you had a lot of old school mentality. with women, you get a wing, you know, color.
[22:34] It designates what that is from having sex with a dead person to having sex with a cop, having sex with somebody who has an STD. when you're in there, you walk a fine line and you know you don't participate.
[22:48] it's just, you know, from watching guys age, eight, and he had a little kid, his name was they did him a favor.
[23:01] Just the amount of stuff that you would see like that. It does challenge your sense of, morals, you know, in a sense of,
[23:15] but you can't do anything about it right now. Once we got into that, it did open up a lot of opportunities for us
[23:29] because one, the name, the club, the brand in and of itself is criminal. It's not like when we would work some of these other investigations I got to make myself look real.
[23:42] Yeah, well, by nature were criminal. Did we have shell company set up, you know, to make us look legit? So we didn't have to show the club or anybody else that we had jobs
[23:56] and we had this. Didn't have to do that. The founding member, David Snow, had served time in Arizona.
[24:11] David Snow, he shot a guy in prison. This guy should have been a prisoner for life. David gets out, he starts to be around us and he sees what's going on.
[24:28] Everybody did stuff for David, so he had a whole entourage that did stuff for him. They've become a becoming one of our biggest allies in the way AB members, just because they wanted power.
[24:45] So we'd come together, you know, once a month, six of us, and we would talk about the club and what we were doing, what was going on.
[24:57] we had an incident where one of our agents, that did not sound right to them, so they called him on it
[25:10] and they called me on it to the point we had to have a meeting. and so there was like 6 or 7 of us, and they came up with five guys
[25:23] and they're all wearing coats, and their hands are all in their pocket. and they're like, they were challenging one of our undercovers and some stuff that he had said who wasn't there.
[25:37] but he don't recognize me that big bushy beard that was a little heavier than. So he's sitting there, he stands up and he's like, you know,
[25:50] called The brothers, and these two ATF guys come in there. He's going on and on and on, and he's looking around. And now I could see our guys are getting antsy and I could.
[26:05] and they're getting antsy because he goes in, you know that guy. and point to me and go, is him.
[26:18] And that guy was it. They're going for their guns because this is going because if it had started, it would have been that's what it would have been.
[26:32] I am legitimately pissed, like I've had it. I'm sick of everything. I go, "you are a big part."
[26:46] I go, "if he opens his mouth one more time, I'm going to kill him right here." Either we're in it together or we're not.
[26:59] We're going our separate ways and you guys do your thing and we'll do ours." I'm tired of it. So David Snow comes out he goes junkyard I like your style.
[27:12] He goes, I want to be a part of your chapter. Not that one down there. AJ decided he was going to go do a burnout
[27:27] and one of the Hells Angels bar on East side of Cleveland. He goes in and one motorcycle does a burnout Well then like that too much.
[27:40] So they're having this event and we knew it was going to be chaos. So we had about 12 guys with us at the time, both they be in law enforcement.
[27:52] So AJ showed up because the intent was we're going to pull his patch. because he's cause of too much trouble because AJ can't just behave himself. We show up at this the Speedway motor crowd,
[28:06] there's Hells Angels posted all over the place. okay, this is interesting. our first experience, like going to a coalition meeting as well.
[28:20] and we're sitting there that are off to the side
[28:34] So myself and they're right away. We're going to do this. We're going to do that right.
[28:49] David stayed back with AJ, so JB steps up and goes. We go, if there's anybody going to hand any punishment down it's going to be us. We walk over to over to David's.
[29:03] No because you back go back there and tell them that we'll handle our problems. But if they touch AJ, I'm going to have every Hells Angel States greenlit before the day is over.
[29:17] you got to believe he's telling you the truth because he's done plant. I could make it happen.
[29:29] I go, let's see how this is received. and JB, he goes, all right here, here's how this is going. We're going to take AJ out of our club.
[29:44] He's no more to be blackballed And they looked at David and they're like all right Now we're going down to this coalition right meeting in this point
[30:00] it was the Hells Angels and all the little subservient puppet, support clubs. There's probably eight, ten clubs there. And of course, they open up the meeting and it's like,
[30:15] okay, we got a new club order blood, and they start piping up. You know what, we're blah blah blah. They're here.
[30:27] And that was all we heard of there. 20 minutes and they go, okay it's over. Well well, well while this thing is is wrapping up,
[30:41] you know, Order of Blood. Can you hang back? So we're looking over and there's a pickup truck there, an old pickup truck,
[30:53] There's a shotgun on the seat. He's putting on these what appear to be black gloves. in these Hell's Angels and they're standing in front of us.
[31:08] So we closed ranks right up on a hillside. We figure if he's going to shoot, he's going to hit them, you know. So now we're back to this whole,
[31:23] you know the burnout how we're going to resolve this right there ideas. and apologize and a couple of your guys down and apologize to the bar owner. All right, we'll set a couple guys down.
[31:36] I'm walking up, still talking to JB, and I go, did you see the shotgun over there? I go, yeah, I talk to the guys real quick. And then we were just drop our cuts and go.
[31:50] JB looks at me and he goes, when are you going to tell me? He goes up, okay with smoke, with these dudes. So we're all on the same page.
[32:03] He goes, no, he goes, but we need to know. So they had some guys in from Las Vegas and I think Minnesota One of the Hells Angels from, Las Vegas walks over.
[32:17] And I go, what do you mean different? He goes, usually clubs come in here and they kiss our ass. I go, no, not by a long shot because I respect that.
[32:38] now he starts going into the business aspect of they be how they use appeal boxes where they're shipped money and people are picking the money up. Because one of the big thing is
[32:51] they recruit guards on the inside, right, that are doing all their deliveries. the money, the guards are bringing in the dope. that'll come in and visit, but most of it is prison based.
[33:03] He goes, if you're on the outside and you're part of the AB, he goes, So if you're out here and you're running a crew, you're expected to kick up at least 10% of what you're getting back.
[33:17] That goes into the prison. Our stuff was We were buying guns, explosives. The motorcycle clubs were selling dope.
[33:29] But then we would use those guys for Street theater, if we, you know, one of the rope women with the guns
[33:42] because, you know, because, they, they would sell guns. David Snow sold us a gun, but a lot of the guys held on to their guns They knew that the gun was going to cause more problems than the drugs.
[33:57] We drag them out trying to help us on drug buys we have a gun, which we could later go back and get.
[34:10] We dispersed money amongst everybody, like with David in them. money is kind of a show of, you know, whatever for what we were doing.
[34:22] It wasn't the true like, hey, we're a crew of Aryan Brotherhood guys out here. or or, you know, we weren't distributors because we couldn't be distributors.
[34:34] We had to be buyers. You have to be careful what type of recording
[34:46] A lot of times we didn't wear any because we had We, you know, we would do whatever we're doing.
[34:58] The pagans ended up taking a bigger piece of the pie The pagans were the most receptive to us. I mean, if you're going to ask me who who's the most criminal,
[35:13] who's the most nefarious, who's the most violent They're very old school, 70's -ish bikers. The pagans of the Hells Angels hate each other.
[35:28] I said, let's go check it out. we got stopped because there going to be a lot of police presence there. They go, you got to go report in at that point that I tell the guys,
[35:45] And then one guy goes, are you in charge? You guys really need to come down the hill and check in with us. drop to the base of this hill, and there's tents there.
[36:00] And we're walking down this hill and I'm looking at I go, if this stuff breaks bad, just shoot everybody that's not wearing our patch,
[36:12] So we go out to the bottom of this hill right? And we So there's some there's some other club members, presidents and, you know,
[36:26] Just sit there and then they start asking us questions about who we are. We don't have one. You know, affiliate with anybody or Switzerland.
[36:40] Whatever Ivan was saying, Dan Osborne like he was like five feet away from me. I'd listen to his answer and then I would just pretty much pair mine with his.
[36:52] That's when Dan and some of the other guys start buying and like us, well, the pagans are the same as the pagans have always been. They do a lot of drugs. They do a lot of extortion.
[37:08] Our business with them was going to be drugs and guns. that we had, you know, they're really sick of Steve. for the pagans, Fairmont, West Virginia, all the way up through.
[37:25] So our hope was, is we were going to work our way into their heavy hitters and starting and start that spiderweb of getting into their network of drugs. You know, we were prematurely shut down, but we were on the way.
[37:44] our case was was was progressing, you know, It was in a winter time. It was around Christmas, right after Christmas, I get a call
[37:56] from Leykis, Hells Angels, and he says, hey junkyard, I need to meet you. He goes, let's meet at the McDonald's at 540, an idea or whatever it is like, okay, he was one of the more influential Hells Angels in that chapter.
[38:10] other guys at the house, and I, my feeling is something's off. I told them, I go, follow me up, but go sit across the street, post up and watch. So we go out to get in his car and, he looks at me and he goes,
[38:25] And he hands me a white letter, an envelope that's addressed So I open up the letter and I'm looking at it, and there's a picture of two ATF agents who did a Warlock case,
[38:39] Jeff Graham and and Darrin Kozlowski. to them as being in the Order of Blood. And they have one of the other members misidentified as Darrin Kozlowski.
[38:53] Nope. Never seen him before in my life. and we're pretty convinced those aren't your guys. He goes, we think Sony may be trying to infiltrate you guys okay?
[39:09] I, I, I appreciate the information. So I go back to the house, And a meeting with the other two guys and I go, well, okay,
[39:25] So I pick up the phone and I'm trying to explain to my boss It is blah blah, blah. you know, it was safe.
[39:40] Everything kind of smooth out. a, wedding for Lucky, who was a Pagan member out of Youngstown. I go back and then they offer some money, and I get a call from my boss.
[39:56] I go, dude, we just got over the major hurdle of us The case was growing too big, and they felt like they were losing
[40:08] Instead of dedicating more people to help us do it, And it wasn't like we were overspending and funding. There's never been a time in ATF, only one,
[40:22] maybe two, that I could think of where our infiltrations have gone from start to fruition, where we couldn't go anymore. where they actually took out all the national hierarchy and did their thing.
[40:38] management doesn't want to assume anymore risk. They've had enough of it. They don't, you know, they're tired of of of the case. it could have been so much more, just so much more.
[40:53] Well I think we ended up getting probably 30 patch holders and other people that were involved criminally in other things. David was out of prison, maybe a whole two and a half years
[41:06] JB actually died. He had heart problems. AJ went back to the plan AJ was in for, you know, like eight years. was AJ when they arrested him.
[41:22] All of you were like yeah. You know some guys get pissed. Some guys, it's part of the game and they understand it's the game.
[41:35] You form bonds with those guys. laying their life down for you potentially, or at least fighting for you.
[41:47] You know, standing, having your back, not letting something happen to you. Spend all this time with guys and You know, all these dudes are going to be taken out
[42:04] But you sit there and you you do get attached. o me, it's the I, I would not want to grow up anywhere else.
[42:20] the basically the 70s, in the 80s there, I'm Italian Catholic. based on the people that I was exposed to and hung around. and you either thrived and survived in that or you didn't.
[42:38] Youngstown State University and Criminal Justice and start applying for jobs. Youngstown Police Department, he said, hey, he goes, have you considered ATF and ATF?
[42:52] And in the late 80s, early 90s, this is when crack had just come into the United States and it was out of control. That's where they were hiring people for, mostly to combat armed violent crime.
[43:05] Okay. So I played sports all my life, you know, and there has to be a challenge. It was the excitement, the adrenaline rush.
[43:18] You learn about, you know, firearms violate the gun Control Act. And then we had tactics. So this was is getting towards the end of the academy.
[43:36] that you're going to do out in the field. And I still think today it's one of those few agencies that you do not have to have a college degree to get a job where most others you bust.
[43:49] that were like, I come straight out of college at 24. The ATF, then where if you had a car, it was a piece of junk,
[44:05] and then you go to the academy today and you got people coming in Mercedes, BMW because they've had careers and they're coming in later. Why do I want to work that hard to put myself at risk?
[44:20] And what the guys that I grew up around, I mean, that was part of it, the skill set that I think I had, like anybody that was successful I will tell you, growing up in Youngstown, you're exposed to a lot of people.
[44:35] You know how to befriend people. The skill set that I think every one of my buddies has I mean, you could twist stuff. You could redirect stuff.
[44:49] It's not for everybody, because not everybody's a good liar, right? What it means is that you just can't lie. and they play avatars, and they can be everything they want without consequence.
[45:05] you were actually trying to convince the person that you were a cowboy And this is how you got good at talking to people in interacting with people in our generation.
[45:22] got into my first case, I had this informant. and then he had ties to the motorcycle clubs. Biker clubhouses are different depended on the club there.
[45:36] a few certain ways, but you got to know somebody to get in to, you're a friend of the club.
[45:48] if you're, you know, prospect probate or an actual member. So I borrow a motorcycle and we're going to go to an event You don't tell anybody what you're doing just because you you don't want
[46:02] anybody know to need to know because it's too small. they want you to turn your guns over to them. You know,
[46:14] but it's always with respect, you know, never disrespect a patch. Well, you know, they'll stay up all night.
[46:26] bath, you know, some are pill poppers with the pain pills and stuff like that. They're going to say, hey, welcome.
[46:38] to this clubhouse by myself. The informant's there and I'm there about an hour And about an hour later, the Columbus Police Department shows up
[46:53] with alcohol, liquor enforcement in there, right in the clubhouse. I've got two guns on me, and I'm going, I'm going to go to jail. And I've only been down this road about two hours.
[47:05] and I pitched them under the, the, under the front porch of this old house. They closed it because they were running an illegal bar.
[47:18] So everybody skedaddled out of there. go up to this bar on the west side of Columbus, and I'm sitting in there and then comes a couple rotates with a couple of vendors
[47:32] They grabbed me outside and that one shoves a gun right under my neck. And I go, who do you mean who am I?
[47:44] You're the only new face in a crowd. This was an Avenger talking to me. "I got invited by this guy, I showed up, I don't know anything about that."
[47:58] which is the Bureau of Criminal of this I go, "I don't even know who that is." They have you pinned up against this back wall, and eventually I was able to buzz
[48:11] And then everything kind of leveled out and I went back in, finish my beer, and I left.
[48:27] Like you in a case like that and your cover, you know, identity, it's like somebody, it's like you die. So you're going through the the whole process of grieving the death of yourself.
[48:41] this life of all bikers and criminals and all this. and now you want to put me back in a in a cubicle working regular stuff.
[48:53] But I will say in ATF, we're unique because of the guys that have done these cases over the years. Our wives have been through all of it and they stood by it.
[49:06] So, you know, now that all that's done and I'm still doing some contracting work and, you know, now that I'm in business with my daughter, it's it's great. Yes, it was to me because you see the end result, you know,
[49:22] that you put in prison. So you know that while those people in prison, they're not going to be able to terrorize or victimize other people.
[49:35] I mean, you're trying to make the communities that as a whole better. You're no good." It's not going to stop or from happening.
[49:50] We were good at what we did. And what really pisses people off is that we were able to get over on you. people off, that they couldn't smell us, they couldn't get us out.
[50:03] It's the game, as they say. Don't hate the player. Hate the game.
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