[0:02] Hi everyone and welcome to the latest
[0:04] edition of the DF Direct Q&A show. Lots
[0:06] to get through this week. Lots of
[0:08] questions, lots of answers, but we've
[0:10] got to start off by talking about the um
[0:13] next 100 days Xbox reset memo that Asha
[0:16] Sharma sent to team Xbox employees
[0:19] globally uh yesterday at the time of
[0:21] filming this. Joining me to talk about
[0:22] that and to answer a bunch of questions,
[0:24] John Lenman. Hi.
[0:25] >> Hey, Rich. It's uh lead o'clock
[0:27] according to my phone. Hard to see I
[0:29] guess in this light. There we go. It's 1
[0:31] 1337 o'lock over here in Germany which
[0:34] is a very good time and perfect for
[0:36] talking about all things tech.
[0:38] >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh hello Oliver
[0:41] McKenzie. How are you?
[0:43] >> I'm good. I struggle to understand
[0:45] 24-hour time as a North American, but I
[0:48] think that's uh 137. Is that right,
[0:50] John?
[0:51] >> Yes, correct.
[0:52] >> Yes. Okay.
[0:55] >> Okay, then. Well, as I said, lots to
[0:57] talk about. Um, uh, so let's crack on.
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[1:56] Right. So, we do have to talk about this
[1:58] next 100 days Xbox reset because after
[2:01] the sugar rush high of the Xbox showcase
[2:04] 2026, we're now sort of brought back to
[2:06] reality with an in-depth uh briefing
[2:09] from Asha Sharma and Matt Booty about
[2:11] the challenges facing the Xbox business.
[2:14] And there's some good stuff in there,
[2:16] but there's also a bunch of stuff that's
[2:18] very, very worrying. 3% accountability
[2:20] margins, which I assume is a profit
[2:22] margin. uh year-on-year revenues over
[2:25] the last five years declining um by half
[2:29] a billion dollars despite a $20 billion
[2:32] investment not including Activision
[2:34] Blizzard King. Um the hardware component
[2:37] crisis uh storage has doubled uh
[2:41] compared to what was paid last fall or
[2:44] autumn as we call it in the UK. those
[2:47] costs have doubled again and they're
[2:49] expecting another significant increase
[2:51] as they're planning for the holiday 2027
[2:54] season. Uh interesting wording there. Um
[2:57] memory costs following a similar
[2:59] trajectory they say. Um there seem to be
[3:01] concerns about the nature of the studio
[3:03] system and there's the hint of layoffs
[3:06] to come which is which is not great.
[3:08] Platform infrastructure not built for
[3:10] the battle ahead. They say our systems
[3:13] are overly complex. Um becoming too
[3:16] reliant on vendors to operate our
[3:18] systems and we must become self-reliant.
[3:21] Um yes, crazy stuff in there. Um Oliver,
[3:26] where do you want to start with this?
[3:27] Because it's um obvious that something
[3:31] has got to change, but at the same time
[3:33] um w they've kind of got to invest at
[3:37] this point to to make things better. And
[3:39] I'm not sure of the extent to which uh
[3:42] losing a ton of personnel making cuts is
[3:45] part of that voyage.
[3:47] >> Yeah. I mean at the moment it's not
[3:49] totally clear exactly what they mean by
[3:52] this kind of statement because they
[3:53] basically go through um in terms of the
[3:56] studio system. They talk about expanding
[3:58] their studio system when they needed a
[4:00] large pipeline of content and they're,
[4:03] you know, fortunate stewards of many
[4:04] industry leading leading franchises, but
[4:07] they have not adequately funded them in
[4:08] some instances. And they're also saying,
[4:11] well, we need to balance the priority
[4:13] between our like top tier titles that
[4:15] are going to make a lot of money for us,
[4:17] the exclusives hopefully, and their
[4:19] investment priorities for the next 5
[4:20] years, which suggests doesn't say, but
[4:24] suggests, hey, maybe there's some cost
[4:26] cutting on the books to come. And some
[4:28] reporting from, you know, high-quality
[4:31] journalists out there like Tom Warren
[4:34] has suggested that uh there is
[4:36] potentially some cost cutting to come in
[4:38] the form of studio closures, layoffs,
[4:40] things like that in the next month or
[4:42] two. Um which is very ominous and a
[4:46] concern because obviously Microsoft has
[4:48] staffed up hugely to build out this
[4:50] portfolio of studios and they are in a
[4:53] position where maybe some of those bits
[4:54] are paying off, some aren't. And in this
[4:56] industry also you have to consider like
[4:58] some studios that might have recently
[5:00] delivered product might not be on track
[5:02] to deliver a new game for five or six
[5:03] years. That's also a concern because
[5:05] games take so long to develop and so
[5:07] much time and money to develop. But that
[5:09] is something that doesn't not
[5:10] necessarily look that good in a balance
[5:12] sheet in the near term. An uncertain bet
[5:14] to pay off in half a decade. Who knows
[5:16] what the world looks like in half a
[5:17] decade. Who knows what that bet looks
[5:19] like in half a decade. Perhaps they make
[5:20] some choices on that basis. But yeah, it
[5:23] overall it strikes a little bit of a
[5:24] somber and concerning tone because they
[5:27] are talking about, you know, hey, Xbox
[5:29] Game Showcase was great and our fans and
[5:31] creators are are more excited than ever
[5:33] and we brought back uh Game Pass to a
[5:36] more reasonable price point and lots of
[5:38] positive points in the mix there. But
[5:40] then they're also talking about, hey,
[5:41] listen, uh hardware prices are like
[5:43] doubling every like 3 months. You know,
[5:46] that's not promising. And then they're
[5:48] talking about maybe launching a console.
[5:50] They specifically mentioned the 2027
[5:52] holiday season and being in a position
[5:54] where they're in a bit of a pickle and
[5:56] they need to find some kind of new
[5:57] hardware arrangement to make that work
[5:59] because they're already launching a
[6:01] high-end console. They're going to need
[6:02] to find a way to bring that console
[6:04] experience to as many gamers as
[6:06] possible. They have a number of ways to
[6:08] get there, but that's certainly a
[6:09] concern as well. So yeah, overall I
[6:12] think this statement is
[6:14] hinting and pushing and certainly some
[6:17] of the third party reporting has
[6:19] basically gone as far as to as to
[6:21] confirm they're going in the direction
[6:23] of layoffs. Exactly what that looks
[6:25] like, what studios will be impacted, you
[6:28] never know. And often times this is
[6:30] dictated a lot by the internal economics
[6:31] of what teams have shipped, are close to
[6:34] shipping, what could we cut, and also
[6:37] what do investors think. I think that's
[6:39] probably the thinking that they're going
[6:40] through at the moment. And I would be
[6:42] really curious to see what kind of
[6:43] studios might be impacted. But it it
[6:45] does seem unfortunate at this point to
[6:47] be kind of an inevitability as as kind
[6:50] of cruel as that is to developers to
[6:52] have to face something that basically
[6:54] says, "Well, you're going to be laid
[6:56] off, but keep on working, but you won't
[6:58] know when you're being laid off or when
[7:00] people may be laid off and your whole
[7:01] studio might be closed." That kind of
[7:03] attitude towards developers is probably
[7:06] not helpful. Also, I kind of wonder if a
[7:07] statement like this might do a little
[7:08] bit more harm than good. Kind of leading
[7:10] a pal over over everything for for some
[7:13] time now.
[7:14] >> Mhm. John, we got this really crazy
[7:16] situation here where on the one hand,
[7:17] Microsoft is uh you know, running
[7:19] FanFest, you know, making inroads into
[7:22] trying to reconnect with the community.
[7:24] Um trying to sort of um build bridges
[7:27] there and at the same time we have this
[7:29] harsh reminder that it is a part of
[7:32] Microsoft seemingly has to pay its way.
[7:35] Microsoft is making gigantic amounts of
[7:38] money hand over fist. I think you
[7:40] pointed out earlier Xbox is still
[7:42] profitable, but the the line is going
[7:45] down and that seems to be uh
[7:49] a potential justification for harsh
[7:52] realities to come.
[7:54] What what what do you think they're
[7:56] going to do? Well, I suspect they're
[7:58] going to do kind of what they're laying
[8:00] out here and based on the rumors of
[8:03] potential layoffs, we're going to see
[8:04] that as well. And I'm disappointed to
[8:07] hear that because fundamentally, as I
[8:09] pointed out, Xbox has a business seems
[8:13] to be well, they've struggled, right?
[8:15] And they are ear, you know, earning less
[8:18] per year than they were previously. The
[8:20] line is not going up, it's going down,
[8:23] but they remain profitable all the same,
[8:25] right? And Microsoft is breaking
[8:27] records. They are insanely profitable.
[8:30] 200 plus billion dollars in in revenue
[8:33] uh in the last 12 months. It's clearly
[8:37] not an issue of sustainability because
[8:39] the company is is doing extremely well.
[8:42] Instead, it feels like the Xbox division
[8:44] is simply being held to the typical fire
[8:47] you see from these large western
[8:48] companies where uh being profitable is
[8:51] not enough. You must be extremely
[8:53] profitable, right? So, I guess most of
[8:56] my frustrations here lie more with
[8:58] Microsoft as a parent company and larger
[9:01] tech company culture, especially those
[9:04] in the US, than anything else, right?
[9:07] Because I feel like if Xbox were to
[9:09] continue on down this new trajectory
[9:12] with the plans that Asha set up without
[9:14] resorting to additional layoffs and
[9:16] studio closures, they actually could
[9:19] continue to course correct and in time
[9:23] return towards an increase in
[9:25] profitability. The line should be able
[9:27] to go up once again. Uh and it's never
[9:30] fallen into the red either. So there was
[9:32] no danger of that there, at least not
[9:34] yet, especially now that they are making
[9:35] these adjustments. So I don't like this
[9:38] idea of any of these large companies
[9:41] making this choice to
[9:43] lay off additional employees in this
[9:45] economy. Things are extremely dire right
[9:47] now and we do not need more of this. It
[9:49] doesn't matter whether it's Xbox, Sony,
[9:52] whatever. Like all these companies,
[9:54] >> the layoffs, it needs to stop at some
[9:56] point. people are not going to be able
[9:57] to even spend the money necessary to
[10:00] participate in these ecosystems that
[10:03] they want to build. And that extends to
[10:05] these complaints over the hardware
[10:06] component crisis. Uh this is where you
[10:09] want to post the Tim Robinson meme in
[10:11] the hot dog suit, right? Like who's at
[10:13] fault here? Guess what? Microsoft, the
[10:16] corporation, played a huge role in this
[10:19] inflation in component costs. Their push
[10:22] for AI is directly connected to this. So
[10:26] yeah, Xbox as a hardware division has to
[10:28] deal with this, but this is their own
[10:30] fault. This is Microsoft's fault. This
[10:32] is OpenAI's fault. All these other I
[10:36] almost said stupid companies, but uh I'm
[10:38] very frustrated with the state of of AI
[10:40] and tech centers and and everything that
[10:43] this is uh and everything that this is
[10:46] doing to our beloved industry, right?
[10:49] And this creates this problem where
[10:51] there's more layoffs, fewer people have
[10:53] have jobs, less money, cost of goods is
[10:56] going through the roof. Nobody's able to
[10:58] afford this stuff. I don't even know how
[11:01] how you proceed at this point. They're
[11:03] talking about launching this new machine
[11:05] with these high component costs, and
[11:06] it's going to be a very challenging
[11:08] thing at this point because, you know, a
[11:11] $1,000 box just isn't going to cut it in
[11:13] this day and age. I think Sony's finding
[11:15] out the hard way now. They've increased
[11:17] the PS5 price once again, sales have
[11:19] started to fall and I think that will
[11:21] continue. And
[11:23] >> Mhm.
[11:24] >> I I all of the plans that they've made
[11:26] that Xbox has made, Sony's making for
[11:28] the future, this is all based on a
[11:31] reality that didn't exist when R&D began
[11:34] because these consoles take so much
[11:36] time. uh the component crisis wasn't
[11:38] necessarily part of that or if it was it
[11:41] was a different level of component
[11:43] crisis but costs are really reaching a
[11:46] dangerous point. So I think that they
[11:49] are making some good moves as far as
[11:51] Xbox is concerned but some of the the
[11:54] bad moves that they have to make feel
[11:56] like it's born out of just being a part
[11:58] of a company like Microsoft and this
[12:00] like unwillingness to have a vision for
[12:02] the long term that tech companies seem
[12:05] to suffer from. It's all about the next
[12:07] quarter rather than the next 10 years.
[12:10] >> Yeah, absolutely. Um I mean the name of
[12:12] the memo is the next 100 days, the Xbox
[12:15] reset, and they're talking about how
[12:16] they've had declining revenues over the
[12:18] last 5 years. And uh what I take to mean
[12:21] from that which I kind of find
[12:23] surprising is that obviously their move
[12:25] into multiplatform publishing uh you
[12:28] would think they made a lot of money
[12:29] there. You know, particularly when the
[12:31] likes of Forts Horizon 5 are selling
[12:33] like 5 million units on PlayStation 5,
[12:35] but it doesn't seem to be enough. And
[12:37] maybe this is part of why they've
[12:38] decided to refocus
[12:40] um on stuff like exclusives. you know,
[12:43] the whole um uh uh it does look I mean
[12:46] they're talking about planning for the
[12:47] 2027 holiday season. AMD in the past has
[12:50] talked about being ready for that 2027
[12:53] date for the next generation console. So
[12:57] Oliver, it looks like based on what
[12:59] we're inferring here from point number
[13:01] three in the memo is that it does look
[13:03] like Helix is going to be arriving next
[13:05] year. Um and it faces extreme challenges
[13:08] from an affordability perspective. Um,
[13:11] so there's stuff here about um new
[13:15] business models and partnerships for
[13:17] hardware and I'm curious what's that
[13:20] what that is going to take. I mean uh
[13:21] something I've suggested in the past is
[13:23] um something that actually Microsoft has
[13:25] done in the past and might still be
[13:26] doing it for all I know Xbox all access
[13:29] where you pay for game pass and you pay
[13:31] more because you're basically um buying
[13:35] higher purchase so to speak of a console
[13:37] at the same time. partnerships for
[13:40] hardware. That's quite interesting as
[13:42] well, though. It kind of suggests that
[13:44] um the rumors of Helix being um
[13:48] something that other people could
[13:50] create, possibly the likes of Asus or
[13:52] whatever, may well be a thing.
[13:56] >> Yeah, it certainly does suggest that. I
[13:58] would kind of think that maybe Microsoft
[14:00] would pursue something like the strategy
[14:02] that they do with Windows computers,
[14:04] albeit with a little bit different
[14:05] proportions because obviously Microsoft
[14:08] makes Windows computers. They make
[14:10] Surface devices. They sell lots of
[14:12] Surface devices, I'm told, and that is
[14:14] part of their strategy. and may also go
[14:16] to third parties to deliver, you know,
[14:18] maybe the bulk of the units to the
[14:20] market, specifically units that are
[14:21] intended more for uh mid-range or
[14:24] low-end um low-end consumers, low-end
[14:27] platforms. Uh they do partner with third
[14:30] parties. So maybe they could adopt the
[14:31] same strategy when it comes to Xbox and
[14:34] ship their Helix device, their Magnus
[14:36] based device, but also rely on third
[14:38] parties to deliver lower-end devices to
[14:40] wider swaps of the market, have more,
[14:42] you know, distribution and retail
[14:44] channels, things like that possibly. I
[14:46] mean, that's one one way they could go.
[14:48] Um, and they could launch lower-end
[14:49] devices because obviously Helix itself
[14:51] uh Magnus at least is a chiplet based
[14:54] design. So you can imagine combining
[14:55] that CPU IP with lower-end GPU IP like
[14:59] different blocks, different chips,
[15:01] different different chiplets to make a
[15:03] lower-end device or a different CPU
[15:05] block altogether. Who knows exactly how
[15:07] that will go, but I think that's
[15:09] probably something that AMD could
[15:10] deliver for Microsoft if they wanted to
[15:12] do so. Um, there are other routes they
[15:14] could go though, like obviously you
[15:15] suggested a some kind of like
[15:17] subscription model that's popular
[15:19] historically in the cell phone space,
[15:21] although I think in North America and
[15:23] Canada, we don't really do that anymore.
[15:24] I don't know about other areas of the
[15:25] world, but like it used to be very
[15:27] common to get a phone in a 24-month or
[15:29] 36-month contract. That would include
[15:31] basically the purchase price of the
[15:33] phone, possibly subsidized in there, as
[15:35] well as the price of the cellular
[15:38] subscription and maybe some associated
[15:40] services as well. So that's one way they
[15:42] could go with things. Another way they
[15:44] could go with things is just just to
[15:45] leverage the cloud. Now that's one
[15:48] possibility, but in my own personal
[15:50] experience, Excloud is not that good at
[15:52] the moment. Like I was just using, you
[15:54] know, on my iPad the other day and it
[15:56] had some obvious frame rate presentation
[15:58] problems, some frame frame rate
[15:59] inconsistency problems, frame
[16:01] presentation inconsistency problems.
[16:03] They make games look very awkward and
[16:05] not very pleasing to the eye. So um
[16:08] certainly like I think all the console
[16:10] vendors and their cloud delivery
[16:12] services need some improvement but
[16:14] Microsoft's uh perhaps is not strong
[16:17] enough to be a major pillar of their
[16:19] business I would suspect although who
[16:21] knows what their data looks like in
[16:22] terms of usage but I I think real
[16:24] hardware is still an important still an
[16:26] important element of this uh of this
[16:28] whole business. So yeah there are
[16:29] multiple avenues they could go down. I'm
[16:31] not convinced any one of them is
[16:33] particularly good and they're all going
[16:35] down them because of the high price of
[16:37] hardware which is going to affect even
[16:38] their kind of lower-end devices. Right?
[16:40] You're not going to get like a series
[16:42] like device I would suspect for $300
[16:44] American it's going to be more like $600
[16:46] American I would I would think at the
[16:47] very low end of of things. So yeah it's
[16:50] not a very good position for Microsoft
[16:52] at the moment but these are pressures
[16:54] that all console vendors are facing.
[16:56] >> Mhm. Yeah. I mean, when you first launch
[16:59] a console, it is the core users, the
[17:01] core enthusiasts who buy it, and they do
[17:03] tend to be able to to pay more money.
[17:06] The question of $1,000 for a Helix
[17:09] console, somewhat different, though.
[17:12] And um, you know, based on the prices
[17:15] we've seen of current gen, I don't think
[17:16] that's completely out of the question.
[17:18] There was an interesting point made by
[17:19] the forks Kerry there talking about how
[17:22] from a value perspective viewed through
[17:24] the lens of PC purchase uh Helix could
[17:27] actually be very very um uh valuific
[17:38] gamers there. I am curious as to whether
[17:40] they will make a lower spec device um
[17:42] and that chiplet um design that you've
[17:45] pointed out there in theory they could
[17:47] produce one with you know lower memory
[17:49] lower capabilities
[17:52] then you need to ask the question why
[17:53] don't we just stick with the hardware
[17:55] that we have uh because it it's you know
[17:58] it's certainly decent enough but you
[18:00] know it the new stuff is going to be
[18:02] doing some very interesting uh stuff
[18:04] with machine learning that kind of thing
[18:07] um John it's not a great place is it? I
[18:09] mean, we've seen in the UK v ver
[18:12] verified data that since Sony increased
[18:14] its prices um on PlayStation 5, the
[18:17] amount of units sold through has dropped
[18:19] by 50%.
[18:21] >> There is clearly a threshold where
[18:23] people are just not going, you know,
[18:24] where a more mainstream user, I would
[18:26] say, is not going to be paying a huge
[18:28] amount of money for a games console.
[18:31] Yeah, this is an interesting this kind
[18:33] of ties into what I mentioned earlier
[18:34] with the increase in layoffs everywhere
[18:37] is like the affordability is decreasing
[18:39] on all new consoles at this point. Um, I
[18:43] don't think this is this is good for the
[18:46] industry at all at the moment and I
[18:49] wouldn't be surprised if we see people
[18:50] start to move back towards older
[18:52] platforms at some point or just stick
[18:55] with what they already have. So, I don't
[18:58] know. I feel like right now launching
[19:00] any new machine is going to be extremely
[19:03] challenging to the point where I'm not
[19:05] sure it's a good idea. I I really don't
[19:08] know where we go from here, right? Like,
[19:11] >> well, it's going to depend on how
[19:13] innovative, as they say, um their
[19:16] approach to actually being able to sell
[19:17] this thing is. I think it's basically a
[19:19] a confirmed thing that's happening right
[19:21] now. That's what kind of what they're
[19:23] suggesting here. They've just got to
[19:24] come up with the means by which it
[19:26] actually is enticing to users.
[19:28] Otherwise, the whole enterprise fails,
[19:30] right?
[19:30] >> Yeah. But they're going to have to find
[19:31] a way to get that price in check, right?
[19:34] Like, no, there's no way to there's no
[19:38] way to slice this. A $1,000 box is not
[19:40] going to sell well enough to support a
[19:42] whole ecosystem. So, as she kind of
[19:44] noted in interviews, they're going to
[19:45] have to find some interesting ways to be
[19:48] able to financially make this work. I
[19:51] don't know what that will look like. Um,
[19:53] I hope they can find a way to do it and
[19:56] I really hope they have some interesting
[19:57] ideas for how to market this because the
[20:01] only hope I would say I have with this
[20:03] kind of device is that uh phone prices
[20:06] continue to sit in that range and higher
[20:09] and people are much more willing to
[20:11] upgrade them. So, if they could find a
[20:13] way to make it a more multi-purpose box,
[20:16] which is what we believe they are doing,
[20:18] and then sell it in a way that's
[20:20] compelling enough, uh, it could solve
[20:23] problems that people have that might
[20:25] make them more willing to shell out. I
[20:27] don't think it's like mass market
[20:29] sellout necessarily, but it could
[20:31] definitely make it more palatable, but I
[20:33] do think they're going to have to find
[20:34] some other ways to make this like more
[20:37] affordable, including I think we talked
[20:38] about subsidizing it via something like
[20:41] Game Pass or some other kind of method
[20:44] for getting the immediate cost down to a
[20:47] reasonable level. And I think at this
[20:49] point, Microsoft's the only one that
[20:51] really maybe conceivably should be
[20:54] launching a new platform. It feels like
[20:57] like I think a PS6 right now would just
[20:59] be a stupid thing to launch. There's too
[21:01] many units out there of PS5 and it's
[21:04] going to cost an obscene amount of money
[21:05] and I don't think they're going to
[21:06] change anything significant about it. Uh
[21:09] Nintendo just launched the Switch too
[21:11] and it's already creating issues for
[21:12] them in terms of component costs. So,
[21:15] they're going to be sticking with that
[21:16] for a while. But the Xbox Series
[21:18] consoles, uh they've sold enough but not
[21:21] as not nearly to the same level as the
[21:23] competition. Um, but they also have the
[21:26] PC as like a main platform. So, I man,
[21:30] this is this has got to be a very
[21:31] difficult problem to solve. But then
[21:34] again, like I said, they're still Xbox
[21:36] is profitable, man. They're still
[21:37] profitable. They're still releasing tons
[21:40] of games. They have so many developers.
[21:43] Like, I don't see the doom and gloom
[21:45] around any of this stuff. I still feel
[21:47] like Xbox is perfectly strong as its own
[21:49] thing. even if it doesn't take over the
[21:52] business, I I feel like it should be
[21:55] okay to make, you know, good money, if
[21:58] not the most money, right? And I hope
[22:01] that that is able to continue.
[22:06] I read a a story actually about how um
[22:08] AMD's David McAfee, he's basically the
[22:11] guy in charge of Ryzen and and Radeon,
[22:14] um expecting or hoping,
[22:17] I guess he probably would have some
[22:18] better idea than most of us. Uh he's
[22:21] expecting DDR5 RAM prices to recover
[22:24] slowly. Um maybe a couple more years
[22:27] until it's kind of back to where it
[22:28] should be. So maybe there is a kind of
[22:30] short-term pain window for launching in
[22:32] 2027 if things are likely to stabilize
[22:35] in 2028. I don't know. Um but but let's
[22:38] move the discussion on take some
[22:40] supporter questions here because the
[22:41] concept of exclusivity has certainly
[22:43] been uh a hot topic. Um Scud asks, "On
[22:46] the topic of Xbox exclusives, I'm
[22:48] generally in favor of everyone getting
[22:50] to play everything. I don't really care
[22:51] about console loyalty, console wars, but
[22:54] when they said Gears of War eay was
[22:55] going to be an exclusive, it made me
[22:57] happy. I own an Xbox regardless of the
[22:59] impact on sales. I think they're
[23:01] literally just trying to make people
[23:02] happy that they bought in. So, job well
[23:04] done because it worked on me. Do you
[23:05] think that's the main strategy here? Uh,
[23:08] I think so. And based on what we're
[23:10] seeing on those numbers, um, you know,
[23:12] clearly the exclusivity gambit hasn't
[23:14] really changed the direction of travel
[23:17] for them. But moving on, teasing
[23:19] hilarity says, "And hello again, fine
[23:21] gentleman of the foundry. Do you think
[23:22] the return of Xbox exclusives will be
[23:25] enough to save Xbox, especially when at
[23:27] least some of them will also be on PC?
[23:29] Pretty much all of them, isn't it? I can
[23:31] see a lot of people being upset after
[23:33] being upset rather than psyched for
[23:35] Xbox. Archon 2825, dear valued
[23:39] Foundryman with Microsoft pivoting back
[23:41] to console exclusives. How does that fit
[23:43] into their overall strategy? On one
[23:45] hand, they want to be the world's
[23:46] leading publisher. On the other hand,
[23:47] from what we know, they seem to be
[23:49] targeting a niche hard hardware platform
[23:51] with Elix. Even if it's a phenomenal
[23:53] device, it won't be a traditional
[23:55] console with tens of millions of units
[23:56] sold. Given how expensive AAA game
[23:59] development is today, don't they need a
[24:01] massive install base to sustain this?
[24:03] Thanks for your insights and keep up the
[24:05] great work. Uh, exclamation point. Um
[24:08] Oliver, the the last point in
[24:10] particular, I mean if you are making a
[24:12] high-end device like Magnus Helix, it's
[24:16] it is kind of going to be um a lower
[24:20] volume device and that doesn't seem to
[24:23] be compatible with this concept of
[24:24] console exclusives. Um how do you square
[24:27] that circle? Well, I would square the
[24:30] circle by saying that it seems like
[24:32] there were a lot of decisions that were
[24:33] made by prior leadership that seem to be
[24:35] pushing in the direction of a fully
[24:36] multiplatform Microsoft shipping low
[24:39] volume high-end console hardware as kind
[24:42] of a concession almost to existing uh
[24:44] Xbox fans that was designed to be
[24:47] high-end that was designed to showcase
[24:48] kind of a premium Windows AMD experience
[24:51] but was not designed to hit a mass
[24:52] market price point or saturate the
[24:55] channels with tens of millions of units.
[24:57] Asharma has come in and seems to have a
[25:00] different perception of that to the
[25:02] extent that there was like a low-end
[25:03] Xbox Helix device in development. I'm
[25:06] sure there was some kind of low-end
[25:08] experience being offered at least, but
[25:09] perhaps it wasn't a high priority.
[25:11] They've made it a high priority is my
[25:12] reading. And they're trying to make
[25:14] Helix a mainstream proposition very
[25:16] quickly. Um that's whether that's
[25:18] through chasing uh a larger audience
[25:20] with lower spec devices or through
[25:22] subscriptions or through cloud or
[25:23] whatever. not quite sure, but they're
[25:25] trying to make that experience
[25:26] accessible to a lot more users. And part
[25:29] of that uh lies in kind of enabling this
[25:32] whole exclusive concept where they can
[25:34] have exclusive games. They don't need to
[25:36] ship everything on PlayStation. And
[25:37] indeed, they're backing away from making
[25:40] everything available on PlayStation, not
[25:41] just day and date, but kind of for
[25:44] eternity as far as we know with some of
[25:46] these games. So, I think that's
[25:48] basically the answer is there's been a
[25:50] change in the strategy and I think
[25:51] they're trying to ship trying to turn
[25:53] what Helix was into something more
[25:56] consolelike and more console priced. Uh
[26:00] whether that works or not, I'm not
[26:02] totally sure. It does seem like these
[26:04] changes in direction of Microsoft, you
[26:05] know, you don't really see major changes
[26:08] in direction from like Sony or Nintendo.
[26:11] They kind of just ship good consoles
[26:13] every six, eight years, whatever, and it
[26:18] works out well for them, and they ship a
[26:19] wide variety of high quality first-party
[26:21] software. Microsoft is the odd one out,
[26:23] kind of making changes, making huge
[26:26] deviations from the business model every
[26:28] generation, and it's not working out so
[26:30] well for them. And Asha seems to be
[26:32] saying, well, let's go towards a more
[26:33] traditional model.
[26:36] >> Right. Okay.
[26:38] We're talking about pretty much a big
[26:39] reset there, which is what they've
[26:41] titled the memo there, John.
[26:44] >> I mean, yeah, I guess it's
[26:47] I I don't know how how many more times
[26:48] to go around in circles on this, but
[26:50] like everything points to them that it's
[26:53] still a division that makes money and
[26:55] produces good stuff. And
[26:59] I guess they're making moves here to
[27:01] sort of regain some of the hardcore
[27:03] fans. And if they can balance that while
[27:07] still making money, I guess. I mean, I I
[27:10] don't know what else to say about this.
[27:12] It's really kind of a wait and see
[27:13] approach. I don't feel like things are
[27:15] as dire as they've been painted out to
[27:17] be is what I'm is my point. Right.
[27:20] >> Like everybody acts like, "Oh, it's the
[27:21] end of Xbox." It was never the end of
[27:23] Xbox.
[27:25] >> Like there was no evidence of that. Like
[27:27] them changing the way they release games
[27:29] doesn't matter. They're still a giant
[27:31] publisher producing a ton of great
[27:33] stuff.
[27:34] Um so they're just going to do slightly
[27:38] differently. Now
[27:40] >> I think um the thing is that we've kind
[27:43] of gone to a multiplatform strategy
[27:45] which um according to the numbers
[27:46] according to this memo didn't work and
[27:48] but that was instigated off the back of
[27:51] a um a console ccentric focus which um
[27:56] Microsoft the parent company was
[27:57] seemingly not happy about which brought
[27:59] about the multiplatform uh pivot in the
[28:01] first place. So, and at the same time,
[28:04] we've still got this stated aim of them
[28:06] wanting to be the number one
[28:07] entertainment company. Although, um they
[28:09] describe themselves as number two, but
[28:11] who is number one? That's that doesn't
[28:13] seem to be, you know, what is the metric
[28:15] for what for being the most successful
[28:17] entertainment company? Do you include TV
[28:19] in that? Do you include, you know,
[28:21] Disney, etc.? Is it Tensson who's number
[28:24] one? I'm not quite sure what's what's
[28:25] what the situation is there. Um, I
[28:29] guess, you know, at the moment it's kind
[28:31] of like we we're just starting to see an
[28:32] insight into what's going to be
[28:34] happening at Microsoft and um, uh, I I
[28:37] guess there must be a plan. It doesn't
[28:39] seem to be immediately obvious to me how
[28:41] they're going to do it, but there it is.
[28:44] I think we should move on. Okay, we got
[28:46] this question here from NG. Hello,
[28:49] Foundry Lads. Exclamation point.
[28:50] Longtime Patreon, first time poster
[28:52] here. My question is fairly
[28:54] straightforward. Given that Valve won't
[28:55] be able to sell the machine at um the
[28:57] Steam machine at the price point they
[28:59] originally had in mind, what's stopping
[29:01] them aside from the sunk cost in the
[29:03] design current design from saying sold
[29:04] it. It's going to be expensive due to
[29:06] memory costs. We might as well release a
[29:08] slightly pricier but significantly more
[29:10] powerful version. I'm thinking along the
[29:12] lines of a full Zen 4/5 plus RDNA4
[29:16] pairing instead of the quote unquote cut
[29:18] down versions they currently plan.
[29:20] Cheers. Exclamation point. I mean, on
[29:22] the face of it, that seems to be like an
[29:24] entirely sensible approach in in many
[29:27] respects, right? Um, but I think that
[29:29] the bottom line is that um uh first of
[29:32] all, any kind of increase to an already
[29:34] expensive console um or or or PC is
[29:38] going to be felt. Secondly, I think the
[29:40] the broader point here is that the
[29:43] hardware specification when you're
[29:45] making a device like this, you know,
[29:46] you've got to set up the supply chains,
[29:48] you've got to sign the contracts. It's
[29:51] it's a lock. You can't really go back to
[29:53] say, you know, AMD and say, "Hey, those
[29:55] um hundreds of thousands of components
[29:58] that we've ordered, they're not quite
[30:00] good enough. Can you give us some better
[30:02] ones?" That's not really the way things
[30:04] work in um in the way consumer
[30:06] electronics are made. So, bets were made
[30:09] at a certain point where they thought
[30:11] presumably that they could produce a
[30:13] very affordable machine. And if you
[30:15] consider the makeup of the machine, it
[30:16] is, you know, it it strikes um the sweet
[30:19] spot in terms of where Valve sees its
[30:22] audience, you know, looking at the Steam
[30:24] hardware survey. Um but the concept of
[30:27] going back and you know, swapping out
[30:29] components,
[30:31] easy in theory, very very difficult in
[30:34] practice. Uh do you agree with that,
[30:36] Oliver?
[30:37] >> I do. I do. I mean, they just have so
[30:40] many commitments, I'm sure, in terms of
[30:42] supply, terms of contracts that are
[30:44] drafted with AMD for specific
[30:46] components, things like that. Um, and
[30:49] device engineering is just really
[30:50] prohibitive because you have have to
[30:52] like redo the motherboard, the power
[30:54] delivery, the cooling, the acoustics
[30:57] drivers possibly, um, even things like
[31:00] HDMI behavior, things like uh,
[31:02] validation
[31:04] uh, across a wide range of games, right?
[31:07] QA across the whole Steam library of
[31:09] titles. There are so many concerns here
[31:12] um just on that end and then on the
[31:13] other end you have cost which is like
[31:15] you know if the key concern is RAM and
[31:17] storage than a higherend device with
[31:19] more RAM and possibly more storage is
[31:22] not really going to do anything to allay
[31:23] these concerns about price. And uh you
[31:26] know uh Valve picked the Steam machine
[31:31] uh spec for an actual reason not just
[31:34] hitting a price point. They picked it
[31:36] because they thought it could run, you
[31:38] know, games, current generation games
[31:40] quite well at like 4K 60fps. Again,
[31:43] depends the implementation. We'll have
[31:46] to see how that actually goes. But they
[31:47] actually did set out a spec of like at
[31:50] least let's hit a good experience on a
[31:51] 60 at 60 Hz on a 4K display. Um, and we
[31:56] think this spec can do it in current
[31:57] generation console software. So, I don't
[32:00] really think they need necessarily to
[32:01] upgrade the spec unless their views have
[32:04] shifted on what it should achieve. And
[32:06] if they were to do so, I suspect it
[32:07] would be need to be delayed by at least
[32:10] a year. I'd have to expect based on the
[32:12] size of Valve and based on their kind of
[32:13] commitments and they would be tearing up
[32:15] a lot of paper that would probably be
[32:16] pretty expensive from their perspective
[32:18] as well. I don't think it's a good idea.
[32:21] And so, yeah, I think that the device is
[32:22] just it's going to come out. It's
[32:24] probably going to come out fairly soon
[32:25] because they've sketched out a release
[32:26] date in the first half of this year. And
[32:28] it's probably going to come out, I would
[32:30] suspect, in substantially unaltered
[32:31] form. And that's probably best for all
[32:32] parties involved.
[32:34] >> Yeah, John, I'm just thinking that every
[32:36] time a new piece of uh gaming hardware
[32:38] is announced, people never think it's
[32:40] powerful enough.
[32:41] >> I mean, yeah,
[32:42] >> and they always want something better.
[32:44] >> That's kind of the rule of thumb, isn't
[32:45] it? Right. And yeah, as you correctly
[32:48] noted, these things take time to
[32:51] engineer. You can't just it's this isn't
[32:54] this is not like a PC where you can just
[32:56] say uh I'm just going to swap in this
[32:58] card instead of this card. Like all the
[32:59] deals and designs and everything that
[33:01] happens behind the scenes that stuff
[33:02] takes a lot of time and work to get up.
[33:05] So like no they couldn't change this
[33:08] without delaying it at least a year like
[33:10] you said Oliver. And so I don't think
[33:12] that would actually change anything.
[33:14] They just kind of have to go their their
[33:17] choices here were either launch it at a
[33:18] higher price or just cancel it. And it
[33:22] seems like they will go for go ahead
[33:23] with launching it.
[33:25] >> And I think the Steam Deck proves that
[33:26] if you can do this in a way that feels
[33:30] super optimized and polished,
[33:32] >> people are willing to accept some
[33:34] trade-offs in terms of performance. I
[33:35] still think the Steam Deck offers a
[33:38] better portable PC experience than any
[33:41] default like Windows-based handheld for
[33:43] instance. uh just due to the nature of
[33:46] you know Steam OS and the way that works
[33:48] like that is a huge selling point even
[33:51] if the hardware itself under the hood
[33:53] isn't quite on par. Um, and I think
[33:57] that'll be the same thing here where
[33:58] this should conceivably perform like a
[34:01] proper console where you hook up to the
[34:03] TV, everything sort of works and it's a
[34:06] smooth experience versus say hooking up
[34:08] a Windows PC to your TV that you built
[34:11] yourself, which is just never going to
[34:13] be as polished as this could be. And
[34:15] there is an appeal there. But Valve is
[34:17] also not in the same market as the
[34:18] console makers. Like Steam is a PC
[34:23] storefront. They sell it across so many
[34:25] devices, right? Like this is just one
[34:27] more way to access Steam as it was with
[34:29] the Deck. So, I think they're happy
[34:31] selling a low volume, higher priced sort
[34:34] of like machine like the Steam machine,
[34:36] uh, which will probably get, you know,
[34:38] some attention but not become a giant
[34:40] mainstream success either. And I think
[34:41] they're okay with that.
[34:43] >> Absolutely. Um, let's move on here.
[34:46] Question here from 1040 STF. I was
[34:48] really impressed by the God of War lowfi
[34:51] footage shown during the last state of
[34:54] play, but I noticed also noticed as did
[34:56] you gents that some aspects featured
[34:57] fairly flat lighting. Part of me can't
[34:59] help but wonder if that's because the
[35:01] game is actually a flagship PlayStation
[35:03] 6 launch title artistically designed
[35:05] with a more advanced ray tracing mode in
[35:07] mind. Or maybe even path tracing if
[35:09] we're dreaming big. That would also
[35:11] explain why it didn't feature any
[35:13] release date window despite appearing to
[35:14] be fairly far along in development. How
[35:17] plausible do you think that theory is?
[35:20] Um Oliver, well they they've shown it
[35:22] running on PlayStation 5 or PS5 Pro,
[35:24] whatever, and that's what we're getting
[35:26] and they're saying it's coming soon. So
[35:28] it's coming soon, right? Um presumably
[35:31] before PlayStation 6. So my take on this
[35:34] is basically that, you know, that's it.
[35:38] That's what you're getting. That does
[35:39] not rule out any kind of enhanced um
[35:42] PlayStation 6 version, mind you. In
[35:44] fact, it's pretty much a given really.
[35:47] >> Yeah. I mean, it's going to come out on
[35:49] PlayStation 5, I would expect, uh, in
[35:52] the next, I don't know, year, year and a
[35:54] half or so. I mean, certainly some
[35:56] journalists like Jason Shrier, I think,
[35:57] was suggesting. It is a 2027 title of
[36:00] some variety. I mean, who knows how late
[36:02] in the year that is necessarily, but I
[36:05] also would expect, I mean, I would
[36:06] almost be certain there's going to be a
[36:08] PlayStation 6 version. Whether that's
[36:09] just a simple enhancement, whether
[36:11] that's something more substantial, who
[36:13] knows? We'll have to see um whether
[36:14] that's just a patch on the existing PS5
[36:16] version of the game. We have no
[36:17] logistics on how that will work on PS6
[36:20] necessarily. So, we'll have to see how
[36:22] that goes. But, um I mean I would have
[36:24] to imagine here that if you're going to
[36:26] build a game like this around RTGi that
[36:29] often times it's best to scale that to
[36:31] all your target platforms. And actually
[36:33] PS5 as your base platform is not
[36:36] especially low-end in terms of like
[36:39] shipping an RTGI system. I think you
[36:40] could probably do it. So, I would just
[36:42] expect that they would probably ship I
[36:44] don't know. I mean, they they could ship
[36:45] an RTGI mode on PS6, but it would
[36:48] require a lot of artist time, a lot of
[36:49] artist work, a lot of uh you know, tech
[36:52] stuff they might not have had experience
[36:54] with before necessarily. Um, so I
[36:56] wouldn't expect a dramatic improvement
[36:57] for PlayStation 5 rather than
[36:59] PlayStation 6 necessarily in this title.
[37:01] And I certainly would expect it to be a
[37:02] cross-platform title of some variety.
[37:05] Probably launching first on PlayStation
[37:07] 5 with some kind of enhancement, I'm
[37:09] sure, planned for PlayStation 6. when it
[37:11] does launch.
[37:14] >> Yeah, entirely in agreement, John.
[37:18] >> I don't really see any issues with the
[37:19] footage. It looks like what you'd expect
[37:21] from Santa Monica, and I suspect it is
[37:23] just a PS5 target. I mean, their
[37:26] lighting has always been somewhat
[37:27] conservative, I would say. Um, that was
[37:30] true of God of War 2018, and it was
[37:32] doubly true of God of War Ragnarok,
[37:34] which was a crossgen game as well. And I
[37:37] felt like this was improved in that
[37:40] regard over Ragnarok, which is what you
[37:42] would expect to see from a native PS5
[37:44] game. I think companies always do design
[37:46] their games to be more scalable these
[37:48] days. You do consider that it may launch
[37:50] on other platforms in the future. That's
[37:52] probably the case here, but I'm not sure
[37:55] that they would go back in and like toss
[37:57] just RTGI on something when it's been
[38:00] lit by artists the way it has been
[38:04] already, right? Like I think this is
[38:06] just this is what the game looks like.
[38:07] Take it or leave it.
[38:10] >> So which I think it looks good. It
[38:12] doesn't it's not like cutting edge, but
[38:14] it's a it's a handsome game, I would
[38:16] say.
[38:17] >> And image quality seems pretty good and
[38:18] 60 fps. Like we're kind of at this point
[38:22] I've seen in this generation where most
[38:25] games either go for all of those
[38:27] advanced techniques and image quality
[38:29] suffers or you stay with more tried and
[38:32] trueue rasterized techniques or just a
[38:34] little bit of ray tracing and you can
[38:36] typically get better image quality out
[38:38] of it. So this seems to be going for the
[38:41] latter.
[38:43] Uh let's move on. Justin Valero asks,
[38:46] "With the relaunch of the 5800 X3D,
[38:49] where are we on gaming CPUs? Are we at a
[38:51] point where mainstream CPUs are quote
[38:53] quote unquote good enough currently?
[38:56] What hits the right balance where one is
[38:58] not CPU limited on mid-range/high-end
[39:01] GPUs since the current consoles running
[39:03] on Zen 2? Yeah, first of all, quick note
[39:06] about the 5800 X3D. It's back. AMD is
[39:09] bringing it back. um they've had some uh
[39:12] issues in the way it's packaged, but
[39:14] they have indeed managed to bring it
[39:15] back. Unfortunately, they're going to be
[39:16] charging $350 for it. So, it's kind of
[39:20] like a last harrah for the AM4 platform,
[39:23] but it's also one that's that, you know,
[39:25] it's it's far more than I paid for for
[39:28] mine um several years ago, which uh uh
[39:31] isn't isn't good. I mean, let's not even
[39:34] mention that I got a 5700 X3D from
[39:36] AliExpress for £130.
[39:39] uh it's almost as good. Uh where are we
[39:41] on gaming CPUs? Um the problem is is
[39:44] that every single game has a completely
[39:46] different CPU level where you can start
[39:49] to be CPU limited and it's far more
[39:51] prevalent than you may think. Uh we um
[39:53] just looked at um the uh Halo campaign
[39:56] evolved preview. Um that was CPU heavy.
[40:00] Maybe that improved by launch. Um we are
[40:03] looking at 007 first light at the moment
[40:06] and when there's a lot of crowds uh even
[40:08] something like a Ryzen 5 5600 is is less
[40:12] than 60 fps. So it's actually performing
[40:13] worse than the Zen 2 processor there.
[40:16] Basically there's a completely different
[40:18] sort of balance between GPU versus CPU
[40:20] on every single kind of game at the
[40:22] moment. But the the demands on the CPU
[40:25] are rising. Um that's that's for sure.
[40:29] um you can mitigate it by you get the
[40:32] most um uh amplification in frame rate
[40:35] by using frame generation um when you're
[40:38] CPU limited um however obviously that
[40:41] has an impact on latency so there's no
[40:43] you know there's there's no easy way of
[40:46] saying this this CPU is enough for you
[40:49] right I mean um I've even been CPU
[40:51] limited path tracing on Cyberpunk 2077
[40:54] with a with a 5090 crazy as that might
[40:57] sound uh 4K DLSS performance mode there.
[41:01] >> Crazy stuff. I mean,
[41:04] >> the thing is, you can't really make a
[41:06] single recommendation here when you're
[41:09] getting such drastically variable
[41:11] results. What I will say is that, you
[41:13] know, I played um I played the Halo
[41:15] Preview with a 5600.
[41:18] I could see I was CPU limited, but you
[41:20] know, still in the 50s. That's kind of
[41:21] okay. I mean, similar to 007. The Zen 2
[41:26] parts though, I think they're starting
[41:27] to uh to show their age somewhat. Um,
[41:30] anything to add, Oliver?
[41:32] >> Well, the only thing I would add is that
[41:35] in addition to the games themselves
[41:36] having a variable level of performance
[41:39] on given CPUs, there's also people
[41:41] having a different expectation as to how
[41:43] games should run, right? Like some
[41:46] people are really interested in high
[41:47] frame rates. Doesn't matter the
[41:48] graphical fidelity. Just pump me up to
[41:50] like 360 Hz. That's what I want. Other
[41:53] people like myself are much more like,
[41:54] well, I'm okay at like 100 FPS, 72 FPS,
[42:00] 60 fps. Indeed, in a title like um in a
[42:04] title like Forts of Horizon 6, I'm able
[42:05] to play that game at 72 Hz natively with
[42:08] frame gen up to 144 hertz, which to me
[42:11] feels pretty good. Other people might
[42:12] not like that. Other people might want
[42:14] native 144 hertz. In that case, they'd
[42:16] need higherend CPU hardware than I have,
[42:18] which is like a 13700 K. But in general,
[42:21] I would say that if you're, you know, if
[42:23] you kind of think of games as being like
[42:25] roughly comfortable around console spec,
[42:28] I'd want something that's firmly better
[42:30] than console spec, just like a Ryzen
[42:32] 7000 series processor or an Intel 12th
[42:35] gen core. Most of those should be able
[42:37] to get you into okay territory in most
[42:39] games, good territory in most games. Um,
[42:41] and then if you really want a premium
[42:43] experience, then go towards the like
[42:45] 9,000 X3D processors or even 7,000 X3D
[42:48] processors. I think those are really
[42:50] good options. But um it's hard to offer
[42:53] a blanket statement cuz I could offer
[42:54] that statement and then you'd be like,
[42:56] "Well, my number one game is Oblivion
[42:58] Remastered." Then I'm like, "Well, okay,
[43:00] now we have a different set of
[43:01] performance expectations to navigate
[43:03] around, right? Because we have this game
[43:05] that is just miserable on CPUs. You need
[43:07] the very fastest you can get and even
[43:09] then you might not be happy. So really
[43:11] going to depend on the person, going to
[43:12] depend on the game, going to depend on a
[43:14] lot of things, I suspect."
[43:17] John, have you come up against any sort
[43:18] of games recently where I mean you're on
[43:20] a 13900 K, aren't you?
[43:22] >> Uh, I mean
[43:23] >> where it's been an issue.
[43:24] >> Sure. Personally, I mean, yeah, the
[43:26] 13900K versus a 1590. Sure. Yeah. Being
[43:30] CPU limited is not uncommon and that's
[43:33] often usually where I am limited. Um, I
[43:37] that's why I do actually like frame
[43:40] generation. I know I know people hate
[43:41] frame generation, but I really do. It
[43:43] does feel like free fluidity
[43:47] uh that doesn't, you know, it's great.
[43:49] It overcomes issues with CPU
[43:51] limitations, but I actually think for
[43:52] this generation, we're in a pretty good
[43:54] spot for CPUs. Uh, I think it's balanced
[43:58] out where both PCs and consoles alike
[44:00] have what I would say are good enough
[44:03] CPUs for most applications, especially
[44:05] if you're okay with like just 60 fps
[44:09] versus I feel like most of the CPU
[44:12] bottlenecking starts to happen when you
[44:13] want to hit those really high frame
[44:14] rates above 60, then that's a problem.
[44:18] But for both consoles with its Zen 2
[44:21] CPUs and you know your average PC CPU, I
[44:25] feel like you can generally play your
[44:27] average game in a very good state and
[44:30] it's a lot better than it used to be in
[44:32] that regard. So, I mean, I don't really
[44:35] have any complaints. I think we're in a
[44:37] in a pretty good spot right now. I think
[44:39] CPUs still matter. you can still
[44:41] bottleneck them easily enough, but it's
[44:44] it's not a huge problem for most games,
[44:47] and it's something that I think you can
[44:49] generally get a good experience both on
[44:51] PC and certainly on consoles, which are
[44:54] significantly better in that regard than
[44:56] than the last generation. And it's not
[44:59] even close.
[45:01] >> Yeah.
[45:02] >> Well, looking back at that last
[45:03] generation, I'm just surprised that they
[45:05] managed to get so much performance even
[45:07] to get to 30. I know
[45:09] >> effectively mobilebased x86 cores that
[45:13] weren't particularly good
[45:14] >> the Jaguars
[45:15] >> quantify.
[45:17] >> Okay, let's move on. Got this question
[45:19] here from anxiously chrono figure to
[45:20] round off the show. Hey DDF crew, do you
[45:22] think Xbox Series S was M was Nintendo's
[45:25] secret savior? I mean, since devs have
[45:27] had to target this low-end device,
[45:29] moving to Switch 2 development must have
[45:31] been easier for them than it would have
[45:32] been otherwise if only the quote unquote
[45:35] twin consoles existed. Cheers. claration
[45:38] point. Um Oliver, you've done a lot of
[45:40] Series S versus uh Switch 2 comparisons
[45:44] and um what can you say there? There
[45:46] does seem to be certain commonalities
[45:49] between some of the cutbacks that are
[45:51] being made for Xbox Series S that now
[45:54] find themselves into the Switch 2 ports.
[45:57] >> Completely. Completely. I would say that
[45:58] in a lot of cases, we basically see very
[46:01] very similar trade-offs being made
[46:03] between those two platforms. Um in a lot
[46:05] of titles really. One title that comes
[46:07] to mind recently, although I didn't
[46:08] cover this one, is Final Fantasy 7,
[46:11] where it seems like Switch 2 and Series
[46:14] S use basically identical settings,
[46:17] except that one is using DLSS and one
[46:19] isn't, and I can tell you who the victor
[46:21] will be in that one, but I think you can
[46:23] probably guess yourself. You know,
[46:24] there's a lot of commonality between
[46:25] those two machines. Obviously, in terms
[46:27] of GPU compute, that's one area of
[46:29] commonality. RAM is another area. You
[46:32] have 10 GB um on Series S of which 8 GB
[46:35] is accessible to developers. Switch 2
[46:37] has 12 and 9 GB accessible to
[46:40] developers. Pretty similar formula
[46:43] there. Um and yeah, you do see fairly
[46:47] similar compromises often in Switch 2
[46:49] software as series software. And often
[46:51] times when we're trying to project
[46:52] performance for games that are coming up
[46:54] that aren't released yet, but might have
[46:56] a Series S version, we're often looking
[46:58] to that Series S version. And so in in
[47:00] the case of like 007 First Light for
[47:02] instance, I was plumbing through that
[47:04] Series S version trying to tell a story
[47:06] about, hey, how will Switch 2 run?
[47:08] Because I know that Switch 2 and Series
[47:10] S often share an enormous amount. Um,
[47:12] and yeah, in some cases, we actually do
[47:14] see Switch 2. I mean, maybe this
[47:16] undercuts my point a little bit. We do
[47:17] actually see Switch 2 exceed series ass
[47:19] not just in terms of image quality but
[47:21] in some cases like for the release of
[47:23] Star Wars Outlaws for instance there
[47:25] were enhanced rate traced reflections on
[47:27] switch 2 greater coverage of rate trace
[47:29] reflections in the Switch 2 version than
[47:31] Series S. Um, I'm not sure if that was
[47:33] the specific platform optimization and
[47:35] maybe more just a factor of like, well,
[47:37] we had more time and we made slightly
[47:38] different choices, but it's interesting
[47:40] to see those kinds of divergences in
[47:42] software. And especially with DLSS
[47:44] nowadays, we do tend to notice that um,
[47:46] being a significant advantage on switch
[47:48] 2, like in the case of the Resident Evil
[47:51] 9 port, right? uh Resident Evil Reququ
[47:53] that title looked much I'm sure John can
[47:56] concur with me here looked much better
[47:57] on Switch 2 than Series S in terms of
[47:59] image qualitys.
[48:03] >> Sorry,
[48:03] >> it ran worse though.
[48:05] >> It did run worse. It did run worse
[48:07] unfortunately. But yeah, lots of cases
[48:09] like that. Lots of cases like that.
[48:12] >> John, what do you think?
[48:13] >> I mean, I'm sure it helped. I'd also say
[48:15] the rise of handheld PCs, like the deck
[48:18] helped as well. uh you know developers
[48:21] are were interested in ensuring a wide
[48:24] range of PC hardware could handle their
[48:25] games and modern engines seem to be
[48:27] pretty scalable anyway. So I think it's
[48:29] just we're at a point where games are
[48:31] just scalable enough that it's not the
[48:33] same kind of problem that it used to be.
[48:35] And I think when you put a little bit
[48:37] more extra effort into it, you can come
[48:38] up with something special. But I think
[48:40] it's also possible just to get decent
[48:41] ports without, you know, a huge amount
[48:45] of investment and time and resources as
[48:47] well. So, Switch 2 is is good for that.
[48:50] And yeah, DLSS definitely does a lot of
[48:52] heavy lifting in terms of improving
[48:54] image quality and which I think is kind
[48:57] of what we were hoping for. And it has
[48:59] it has indeed played out that way, which
[49:02] is great.
[49:04] >> Mhm. Yeah, I think it's uh certainly
[49:06] been helpful. I mean, because there
[49:08] would be like a reference experience
[49:09] where certain nips and tucks have been
[49:11] made that the developers are comfortable
[49:13] with. But at the same time, I think that
[49:15] it probably you would have seen similar
[49:17] things happen for for Switch 2 anyway
[49:19] organically just by the fact that it's,
[49:21] you know, going to sell a lot of units
[49:22] and developers want their games to look
[49:24] great on it. And, you know, they've got
[49:26] some good um technology to work with
[49:28] there, specifically DLSS. I still really
[49:31] do want to see the um Tiny DLSS at a
[49:35] higher resolution versus CNN DLSS at a
[49:38] lower resolution.
[49:40] uh played out somewhere because honestly
[49:43] it seems to be the case that the the
[49:45] titles where DLSS is most impactful is
[49:48] where developers have put in the
[49:50] computational cycles into the higher
[49:53] quality of version of DLSS paying for it
[49:56] with lower resolutions and it seems to
[49:58] to to look good and and work well.
[50:00] Resident Evil and Pragmata game, you
[50:03] know, several games presenting better on
[50:06] Switch 2 than they do on um Series S,
[50:08] even though there may be a frame rate
[50:10] penalty there. So, you know, I kind of
[50:12] think it it's it's helped, but I think
[50:14] people would have put in the effort
[50:15] anyway, uh basically. But even so, we've
[50:18] seen some good stuff. Um that was the
[50:21] final question, therefore the end of the
[50:23] show. So, please do like, subscribe,
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