[0:00] Yo yo.
[0:01] >> Oh my god, you're so loud. Turning you
[0:03] down.
[0:04] >> Sorry. Uh so we're going to rank every
[0:05] boss uh today in the expansion. I I
[0:08] prepared my list and I asked you guys
[0:10] not to watch it and I have no idea
[0:12] what's on your list. Uh the reason we're
[0:14] doing this is we're coming from a little
[0:15] bit different perspective. So mine is
[0:17] like the world first perspective, world
[0:18] first race. uh Dratnos is just behind
[0:21] that and I think that's a very
[0:22] interesting perspective because a lot of
[0:24] time like for example like think about
[0:26] the difference between Dratnos' guild
[0:27] which is very very highly ranked but
[0:29] like on a boss like sticks or a boss
[0:31] like uh forgew weaver I think those are
[0:33] like brood twister right major things
[0:36] were like even guilds way near the top
[0:38] have like totally different experiences
[0:40] um and then franc uh what was your world
[0:42] rank again
[0:43] >> uh I've kind of been teetering between
[0:44] 200 and 300 this expansion
[0:46] >> yeah which is perfect that's exactly
[0:48] what I wanted cuz I you you are killing
[0:50] some bosses not not only after uh like a
[0:53] couple weeks of gear, but you're killing
[0:55] them, I believe, in almost all the
[0:56] harder bosses cases, like when they're
[0:58] nerfed. And I think that presents an
[0:59] entirely different set of problems cuz
[1:02] now like certain bosses are easier,
[1:03] certain bosses are harder. Now you have
[1:04] to hold damage and that's like really
[1:06] shitty or whatever. So
[1:07] >> [ __ ] love doing that, man.
[1:09] >> Yeah. Uh if needs to be louder. Okay.
[1:11] Increasing Funk's volume. Uh so we're
[1:13] going to go just in order. Uh I have
[1:14] like a little spreadsheet up right now.
[1:16] Uh we'll just go me then Dratnos then
[1:19] Franc. Uh we're going to list from the
[1:21] bottom to the top and we are only going
[1:23] to discuss each boss one time. So let's
[1:26] just say for example I'm like I think
[1:28] the worst boss in the expansion is
[1:29] Demensius. We you guys would be like oh
[1:32] okay I you one of you or both of you
[1:34] would say I have that higher and then we
[1:36] would just simply move on to Dragnos's
[1:37] pick. And then once someone has a a
[1:40] basically a boss has been listed for the
[1:42] third time or is it it is at its highest
[1:45] point, we will then like discuss how
[1:47] good or shitty the boss is. And if
[1:48] there's massive differences like I know
[1:50] there will be on one of them. Each
[1:52] person that has it either really high or
[1:53] really low, two different extremes can
[1:55] like explain explain their reasoning for
[1:57] for that argument. Does everyone
[1:59] understand?
[2:00] >> Yeah.
[2:00] >> W All right, I'm gonna go first. Um the
[2:05] boss that I have the lowest rate in the
[2:07] expansion. I did have to think about
[2:08] this a little bit. Uh, but I ended up
[2:10] landing on I have Fractalus as the as my
[2:13] 24. Does anyone have it higher?
[2:15] >> I I have it higher.
[2:16] >> I have it higher, too.
[2:18] >> W. All right. Dryos, what is your 24?
[2:20] >> Brood twister. Ovax.
[2:22] >> Oh, okay. I have that higher.
[2:24] >> Yeah. Uh, same as Ratnos. Could just go
[2:26] next.
[2:26] >> You You also have it. Wait, I I I'm
[2:29] >> That boss is so [ __ ] bad.
[2:31] >> Yeah, it's bad. I I Where do I have
[2:33] that? I uh It's not too far away. So,
[2:35] we'll have a chance to talk about it.
[2:36] All right. I'm going to do my I'm going
[2:38] to do my my 23. I have a Rick Reverb.
[2:40] >> I have it higher.
[2:41] >> I have that higher.
[2:42] >> You have a tad higher. Okay. Uh Dratnos,
[2:44] you're 23.
[2:45] >> Olgra the Devourer.
[2:47] >> I have that higher.
[2:47] >> Oh, interesting. Yeah, I have that
[2:49] higher as well.
[2:50] >> Dude, I kind of feel like with this
[2:51] format, it's like like usually use the
[2:53] format of not talking about it until the
[2:55] person who has it highest. But like
[2:56] here, I think it's like there are some
[2:58] like if you want to rant about a boss as
[3:00] well, it's like also interesting. I
[3:03] think we're going to be able to start
[3:04] >> your
[3:07] >> I think you're you're right, Draatnos.
[3:09] However, we're going to start talking
[3:11] about these bosses within the next like
[3:13] two or three picks and I think it will
[3:16] start being more fluid then. But because
[3:17] of the nature of the list and how many
[3:19] bosses there are, probably for the first
[3:20] couple rounds, they're going to be
[3:21] pretty slow. But I think we're going to
[3:23] end up talking about a lot of them
[3:24] later. Uh unless you have like a unless
[3:26] you have like a way better way to do it.
[3:27] It's just like the only issue is this
[3:29] way you avoid talking about each boss
[3:32] more than once.
[3:33] >> It's just it's always really fun to
[3:34] complain about the format. That's uh
[3:36] >> that's something that you can do
[3:37] regardless of the setting.
[3:38] >> All right. W uh Frank, what is your uh
[3:41] >> Yeah, my next one is Soul Hunters.
[3:44] >> Oh, wow.
[3:45] >> I have it higher.
[3:45] >> Yeah, I have that. I definitely have
[3:46] that higher. Uh, my third and okay, this
[3:50] is I'm going to have to explain myself
[3:52] later, but my my next or most hated
[3:56] fight is actually Nexus Princess Kyza.
[3:58] >> I definitely understand why I can't say
[4:00] I'm surprised.
[4:01] >> Yeah, I have it higher as well.
[4:02] >> I'm sure you guys both have it higher.
[4:03] Okay. Uh, Draatnos, your third or 22nd.
[4:06] >> Uh, 22nd for me is Rashinon.
[4:09] >> I have that higher.
[4:10] >> I have that surprisingly a lot higher,
[4:13] [laughter] but we'll get that in a
[4:15] second. Okay, we're we're about to start
[4:16] talking about a boss on my next pick, I
[4:18] believe. So, uh, Franc, what's your 20?
[4:19] Uh yeah 22.
[4:20] >> 22nd is Fractalus.
[4:21] >> Okay. And you still have that a little
[4:23] bit higher, right, Dus?
[4:24] >> Uh, yes, I have it much higher.
[4:26] >> Wow. Okay. Okay. So, we're getting to
[4:29] >> Yeah, we're getting to my 21st pick,
[4:31] which is Brood Twister Ovenax, which
[4:34] will be uh Now we can uh we can talk
[4:37] about our dislike for so so explain your
[4:39] all's perspective. Why Why is Ovenax the
[4:41] worst boss of the expansion?
[4:42] >> You want to go first right now,
[4:44] >> dude? just like viscerally. It's the one
[4:46] that I think is the most like misery
[4:48] inducing boss to be pulling like both in
[4:51] progression and reclar. Like this this
[4:53] was the thing about it as well is like
[4:54] the reclair sucked too cuz you just had
[4:56] to if you were swapping anybody in and
[4:58] out it was like a pain. It was
[5:00] simultaneously a weak aura boss and also
[5:03] not really like an interesting a super
[5:05] interesting boss. Uh and then it also
[5:07] had the like not getting nerfed for a
[5:09] while being a hard boss after four
[5:11] really easy bosses. So, a bunch of
[5:13] people were stuck on it for ages. So,
[5:15] yeah, many many sins, but also just like
[5:19] I don't know, viscerally is the one that
[5:20] I feel most negatively towards.
[5:22] >> Uh, yeah, I mean roughly the same for
[5:24] me. Um, we spent 117 polls here. Uh, I
[5:28] believe probably 70 or 80 of those were
[5:30] either weak or issues or big wigs not
[5:32] being updated or a setting not being
[5:34] enabled or whatever else. Um, the comp
[5:37] was super restrictive. It felt like uh
[5:39] we only had one frost EK and and that
[5:41] clash just did 20% more damage than
[5:43] everybody else. So that kind of sucked.
[5:45] Yeah, there was just not really any
[5:46] redeeming factors at all. Um best case
[5:49] scenario, you didn't think at all. You
[5:50] followed the weak aura and the boss
[5:52] died.
[5:53] >> Okay, I hear both of you. I I mean I
[5:55] still have it really low. Also, one
[5:57] thing that's funny about this list so
[5:58] far is Draos [ __ ] hates that raid
[6:01] Narabar Palace. Um, but I I uh Okay, I
[6:06] feel like when I was comparing these, I
[6:08] also thought Ovanax was like a huge weak
[6:10] ora problem, but I felt like Fractalus
[6:13] is just the worst version of it cuz
[6:14] Fractalus was also giga weak or issues.
[6:17] But when you actually look at the fights
[6:19] after the weak or issues, I just thought
[6:20] Ovenax was just like had more going for
[6:22] it. As much as it's like kind of
[6:24] annoying maybe like compwise, this is
[6:25] why these lists are fun and different is
[6:27] we don't have the comp issues, right?
[6:28] Like we can run literally anything. So,
[6:30] I don't really think about that. I just
[6:32] think that like once everything actually
[6:33] worked, this fight had a was just simply
[6:36] better than Fractalus, which is also the
[6:37] shitty weaker boss that had nothing
[6:38] going for it afterwards. And I feel like
[6:40] that was also the whole like this boss
[6:42] is way too hard. The Ovenax, um, Forgew
[6:46] Weaver, and Stixs all had the issue of
[6:48] like all the really good guilds in the
[6:50] world that weren't in the world first
[6:51] race were just like what the [ __ ] do we
[6:52] even do with our time right now? And
[6:54] that's just something that never applied
[6:55] to us cuz we killed those B. I think all
[6:57] of them or most of them first. And like
[6:59] that still felt really fulfilling at the
[7:01] end, even if they weren't awesome or if
[7:02] they were harder. Like to us, like we
[7:04] just want to kill hard bosses, whether
[7:05] that's the second to last boss in the
[7:06] raid or the fourth boss. It's kind of
[7:08] weird that they're making the bosses
[7:09] really hard, but we're we're down for
[7:10] that [ __ ] That's what we do this for.
[7:12] So like that that part didn't matter as
[7:13] much to me where I know that's like a
[7:15] it's a they're all really maligned
[7:16] bosses in the community because of that
[7:20] fact. That just doesn't apply to me. So
[7:22] like I think there's going to be a
[7:23] couple bosses I have a little bit higher
[7:24] than both of you because of that. But I
[7:26] chat, would you guys agree? What would
[7:27] be the the representatives that are
[7:29] closest to you have voted Ovenax as the
[7:32] worst of the expansion? Is that does
[7:33] that fly? Is that like what you guys
[7:34] would all be like, "Okay, yeah, I feel
[7:36] that." Decent amount of yeses.
[7:38] >> I get where you're coming from with the
[7:40] uh the Fractalus being the like worst
[7:42] fight objectively. I think the big
[7:43] difference for me was Fractalus was a 15
[7:45] to like 20 pull boss, so you're just
[7:47] kind of in and out of there where Ovenax
[7:49] was a you know 120 pull. That's a lot of
[7:52] raid nights for a guild that raids like
[7:53] twice a week. Uh, a lot of time spent
[7:55] looking at a worm, being incredibly
[7:57] frustrated at tech issues and week or
[7:59] updates and whatever else. True. And I
[8:00] think that's really what
[8:01] >> Yeah, it literally impacts at least
[8:03] >> it impacts weeks of your time. And if
[8:05] something is a worse boss, but it's
[8:07] something that
[8:08] >> is is a problem for an hour, it just
[8:10] can't matter to you as much. I I get
[8:12] that.
[8:12] >> Exactly.
[8:13] >> Um, okay. Oh my god, RO just [ __ ]
[8:17] flex so hard in chat. Fractal worse than
[8:19] Ovenax, but then again, we rarely have
[8:22] weak or issues, so I get it. Guess who?
[8:24] Guess who makes the weak oras for that
[8:26] guild? That's where
[8:27] >> I want you to know. Relo the sole reason
[8:29] Soul Hunters is 23 for me. He's the sole
[8:31] reason. He pushed a really dodgy soul
[8:33] hunters update at some point and my
[8:35] guild spent 25 polls recaring.
[8:37] >> Oh [ __ ]
[8:38] >> Reload your [ __ ] name. I think I sent
[8:40] him a uh an interesting gift in his DMs
[8:43] at that.
[8:43] >> Let's [ __ ] go. L reo. All right. Uh
[8:46] moving on. Uh Dratnos, your 21st pick.
[8:50] >> Fractal. I was pranking earlier when I
[8:52] said I had much higher. Okay, that's
[8:53] that's very Okay, so I mean we we kind
[8:56] of just already talked about this a
[8:57] little bit, but I I wonder I just feel
[8:59] like Fractals is just a complete nothing
[9:01] encounter. Even when everything works,
[9:03] when everything works, what are you even
[9:05] doing? Like the only redeeming quality
[9:07] is that when you had the strat for it,
[9:09] the echo strat, it just died really
[9:11] fast. Like that's the only thing. And I
[9:13] guess that I guess that matters because
[9:14] like you're you know, you don't have to
[9:16] spend a lot of time on the really shitty
[9:17] thing. But I don't know. I just feel
[9:19] like this was like one of the least
[9:20] inspired bosses they've ever made. Yeah.
[9:23] Um I think if I remember prog correctly
[9:26] on this boss, uh the the only mechanic
[9:28] is at some point the safe spot moves
[9:30] over slightly to the right and that's
[9:31] about it.
[9:32] >> Yeah, it moves twice.
[9:33] >> Can't really say it was a very inspiring
[9:35] fight.
[9:35] >> And that happens like like like four
[9:38] minutes into the encounter. I mean, also
[9:40] I think there's some amount of people
[9:42] that just enjoy a nonoying bos like some
[9:44] people just like to sit still and do
[9:45] damage. And this is a boss where
[9:47] >> it's a fine first boss. Fine first boss.
[9:50] Not a great seventh boss or wherever it
[9:51] was placed in the
[9:53] >> Yeah, this this is in the like pro what
[9:55] what did people call fractalist before
[9:56] it came out? You're like, "Okay, I'm
[9:58] reading through the dungeon journal. Oh,
[9:59] this is them doing sludgefist, right?
[10:02] You see a boss that's third to last.
[10:05] That's pure single target." And that is
[10:07] the prototypical Sludgefist build,
[10:10] right? So you you compare it to things
[10:12] that have been like that before and
[10:13] there have been amazing ones and
[10:15] fractals just falls short on on
[10:18] everything to do with that. You have Oh,
[10:20] that's so interesting that Drus's Olgs
[10:22] below that. But we'll get to that when
[10:24] we get
[10:24] >> I kind of get
[10:25] >> Yeah. We'll talk about when we get to
[10:27] Olgraphs. Uh Fran yours.
[10:29] >> What would you have? Uh 21 is stick
[10:32] >> I have sticks.
[10:33] >> Uh I also have Sticksire,
[10:35] >> but I also I respect that there's a lot
[10:37] of bosses near the bottom where they're
[10:38] not going to be super controversial.
[10:39] Well, I I have a controversial one.
[10:41] You're the bottom, but uh Okay, Forge
[10:43] Weaver. Uh or sorry, I'm just reading
[10:45] Forge Wever's name. 20. 20 for me is
[10:47] Olgra.
[10:48] >> Okay, I have that high.
[10:49] >> You have that higher. Dryos, what's
[10:51] yours?
[10:51] >> Uh mine is the onearmed bandit.
[10:54] >> I have that significantly higher.
[10:56] >> I also have that significantly high.
[10:58] >> Uh yours, Frank.
[11:00] >> Uh 20 silken core.
[11:02] >> I get I should have saw that coming. I
[11:05] have much higher.
[11:05] >> Yeah, I have much higher as well. uh
[11:07] [ __ ] elitist
[11:09] >> 19 for me. And I'm actually lowkey
[11:10] surprised that you guys don't have this
[11:13] lower. I thought I had this high, but
[11:15] mine is soulbinder uh for for this. Like
[11:18] I I I don't know. There's literally
[11:20] nothing happening here. Uh Dryos, what's
[11:21] your 19?
[11:22] >> Uh Silken Court.
[11:24] >> You said you had it. Okay. You just keep
[11:26] lying.
[11:26] >> Let's [ __ ] go. Let's go. You're
[11:28] keeping me on my toes, man. I'm
[11:30] interested to hear when we get to it why
[11:32] you guys dislike this one as much
[11:33] because I understand why a lot of people
[11:35] do, but I just feel like boss had some
[11:37] sauce. Um,
[11:38] >> my 19 is
[11:40] >> Oh, we can talk about it.
[11:41] >> Yep.
[11:42] >> Uh, let's start with the person who has
[11:43] it the least, Danos. What do you What do
[11:45] you specifically hate about this boss?
[11:47] It's like it's a first boss with like a
[11:49] damage stop intermission where you have
[11:51] to kill ads and like the best way to do
[11:53] it is to all group up on the other side
[11:56] of the room and just AFK and like I
[11:58] don't know man. It's it's the worst
[12:00] first boss I think in a in a long time
[12:02] because of that. And and it doesn't even
[12:04] like get that much faster during recar
[12:05] because you don't skip anything. You
[12:07] just still do the whole the whole phase.
[12:10] >> Actually, that's a good point.
[12:11] >> It's like closer to like Hellfire
[12:13] Assault kind of. It's like
[12:15] >> it is alarmingly close to that. Yeah.
[12:17] Yeah.
[12:17] >> Also really interesting, at least for my
[12:19] guild, this was the boss we spent the
[12:21] most in combat time progressing. Like
[12:22] this was a 9 minute 40 encounter for us.
[12:25] >> Oh, and every other Yeah. No, don't
[12:27] worry. Not total. Don't worry. We're
[12:29] bad, but not that bad. But yeah, it was
[12:31] just the longest fight in the raid for
[12:33] us.
[12:33] >> It It is a I think there have been worse
[12:35] first bosses in almost every other
[12:37] expansion, but this expansion had
[12:39] actually really good first bosses across
[12:41] the board, and I think this one's just
[12:43] worse than the other two. Uh, I don't
[12:45] think there's anything like particularly
[12:47] agreed. Like I don't think Olgra is like
[12:48] a bottom three first boss of all time.
[12:51] Uh, like on Mythic, it's definitely not
[12:53] a turbo stinker, but it's just not it's
[12:56] not amazing. Uh, Franc would have been a
[12:58] fine fight if it was like 5 minutes. You
[13:00] know, I think the fact that it's almost
[13:01] 10 minutes makes it really agree to
[13:03] immediately
[13:04] >> fight time is something they've really
[13:05] keyed in on to the point where they
[13:06] don't make end bosses that are like
[13:08] longer than 10 minutes anymore, right?
[13:09] Like a 10-minute fight is like too long
[13:11] or the longest they should be. And the
[13:13] fact that you're doing the most boring
[13:14] fight in the raid for that long is is a
[13:17] is a choice for sure. Um, Franc, when
[13:20] you do B-roll of like I I expect like
[13:23] probably like a little B-roll for like
[13:24] each boss when we actually start
[13:26] discussing it.
[13:27] >> If you could find the method strat,
[13:29] >> okay,
[13:30] >> for this boss. Do you know what I mean
[13:31] by that?
[13:32] >> I don't.
[13:34] >> Okay. It's a huge meme in our guild, but
[13:36] basically method like we just did this
[13:38] fight Natty. Ekko did it. Natty and
[13:39] Method was the third guild to enter the
[13:41] raid. And they like tried this I guess
[13:43] like cheese strat in the intermission
[13:46] where apparently the boss could never
[13:47] like fly through or whatever. And they
[13:49] just like all pixel stacked on this edge
[13:51] and then it didn't work and they just
[13:53] wiped to the boss and the boss just like
[13:55] [ __ ] murdered them. And I just
[13:56] thought it was one of the craziest
[13:57] things to try to do. So if you could
[13:58] find that that would be Scott will have
[14:00] it.
[14:00] >> It doesn't do anything. can stand in the
[14:02] blue circle
[14:04] right next to the portal on the little
[14:07] >> triangle of the platform. The ads are
[14:09] coming out. They're going to gather them
[14:10] all up. That is genius. I don't know if
[14:12] Well, I I didn't see any other kills
[14:13] from any other guild, so I'm not sure if
[14:14] THIS IS OH, NO.
[14:16] >> OH, NO. This
[14:17] >> Oh, that's so
[14:18] >> for sure.
[14:19] >> Beautiful. I'll hit up Scott.
[14:20] >> Okay. Um Okay. The uh 18 for me is
[14:25] Lumathar.
[14:26] >> I have it higher.
[14:27] >> Okay. I have it higher.
[14:29] >> Sweet. Uh Dratnos, you're 18. Uh, is the
[14:32] bloodbound horror?
[14:34] >> I have it a lot higher.
[14:35] >> I also have that higher.
[14:37] >> Uh, Franc
[14:38] >> Rick Reverb.
[14:39] >> Rick Rick Reverb. Uh, Draatnos doesn't
[14:43] have this on his board yet. I'm I'm very
[14:45] interested to hear your cook about Rick
[14:46] Reverb when we get there.
[14:48] >> Yeah, but a decent bit higher.
[14:49] >> Uh, okay. That means nothing because
[14:51] every time you've said that so far, it's
[14:52] been the next thing you said. Got
[14:53] >> him guessing.
[14:54] >> Yeah. Okay. Soul Hunters is uh my 17 and
[14:58] I think
[14:59] >> mine is uh Soulbinder Nazendry.
[15:02] >> Okay. And
[15:04] >> mine is Giwick.
[15:05] >> Oh, interesting. I was expecting you to
[15:07] have Giwick's higher. I'm actually
[15:08] really interested to hear your take on
[15:10] that. Um
[15:12] >> in a bit we have uh my 16 which is
[15:16] sticks bunk Junker.
[15:17] >> Hi.
[15:18] >> Cool. Dados.
[15:19] >> Uh my 16 is Lumathar.
[15:22] >> Sweet. Do we have three Lumars? Nope.
[15:23] We're sitting on like two on,
[15:25] >> but I'm coming on the third right now. I
[15:27] also have Blumthar at 60.
[15:29] >> Oh, sweet. Okay. Um, I have it the
[15:32] lowest, so I guess I'll start. Okay, so
[15:33] there there's a there's a few issues
[15:35] with this. I I like the idea of it like
[15:37] ramping in P1 of like the amount of
[15:38] soaks and and they did a good job from
[15:41] PTR. If anyone remembers watching this
[15:43] on PTR doing it, this was like the most
[15:45] punishing. Like basically if a beam went
[15:46] into the boss, you just like died, which
[15:48] is just the craziest technical like
[15:50] second boss difficulty ever. Uh, I don't
[15:53] know. You could like kill the spots with
[15:54] a lot of people dead. The last phase
[15:56] just like a run around the room in a
[15:57] circle. This is near like the like
[15:59] middleish of the list. So, I don't think
[16:01] it's like super bad. Uh, but it just uh
[16:05] just had had some issues and I think the
[16:07] lust timing being like on the pole
[16:09] rather than the damage amp feels kind of
[16:11] weird just because like the first phase
[16:12] was so much harder than the second
[16:13] phase. What do you guys think, Lumathar?
[16:16] You don't, by the way, if you're just
[16:17] like it's a boss and you don't have any
[16:19] a lot to say, that's totally fine.
[16:22] coming at it from a perspective of like
[16:24] a a guy who who casts too much and
[16:26] doesn't have a lot of mobility. And I
[16:27] don't know, I just felt like the fight
[16:29] you had to be everywhere. You had to run
[16:30] a lot. You had to burst down things. I
[16:33] don't know. I just I didn't really ever
[16:34] have fun during the fight. And it was a
[16:36] massive step up in difficulty from
[16:38] Plexel and Soul Binder before it. So, it
[16:41] just wasn't a fun experience really.
[16:43] >> Yeah. I think the boss had too much
[16:45] health like for where it was in the
[16:46] raid. It just I don't know. It's not
[16:48] even that it was that hard after you had
[16:51] a a little bit of gear, but like god, it
[16:53] just took forever to kill. Even in even
[16:55] in farms, it's still like a a long fight
[16:57] even with a bunch of extra gear. And
[16:59] then yeah, the difficulty of it, I don't
[17:01] know. I mean, I don't think it was way
[17:02] above where it needed to be in the raid,
[17:04] but it's probably a little high. And I
[17:06] agree, it's also just not like that fun
[17:08] of a kind of difficulty. I I also think
[17:11] there is one big issue with the fight
[17:13] and that is the little circles that
[17:16] spawn under I believe ranged characters
[17:18] that lineup that happens as you're
[17:20] killing the wall. Maybe this doesn't
[17:22] happen anymore, but in progression, like
[17:25] right when you were killing the second
[17:26] wall, like basically everyone was
[17:27] stacked up ready to leave. And if you
[17:30] killed that thing a little bit too slow
[17:31] or people were like a little bit too
[17:33] spread, there was actually no safe spot
[17:35] and you just got completely exploded.
[17:37] And that just seemed like an
[17:38] unintentional level of difficulty that
[17:40] was like really annoying to deal with.
[17:42] >> You had to like you had to have the
[17:43] ranged bait before you started running
[17:45] out.
[17:45] >> Yeah. Yeah. Like I was trying to
[17:46] convince my range to just like while
[17:48] we're getting ready to kill the second
[17:49] to last web or the last web, can you
[17:51] please stand under the boss's hitbox so
[17:53] all the melee don't have to worry about
[17:54] this and every single time they're like
[17:56] loosely spread and it's just a total
[17:57] [ __ ] show.
[17:58] >> Oh yeah. Also on our kill of this boss,
[18:00] I died to a mechanic I couldn't see. So
[18:02] I blame
[18:02] >> No, I mean that's a W. That that that
[18:04] deserves to go lower because of that.
[18:07] >> All right. My uh my 15 is Sikran.
[18:11] >> I have that significantly high.
[18:13] >> Okay. My 15 is Sikran. Okay.
[18:16] >> Okay. We're not talking about that for a
[18:18] while. So, strap it. I got Forgew Weaver
[18:20] at 15.
[18:21] >> You have You have Sikran and like where?
[18:24] Okay.
[18:25] >> I got that. I got that [ __ ]
[18:26] high, man. I like that.
[18:27] >> All right. We have Forge Weaver Arz,
[18:30] which is I believe the first time
[18:32] anyone's put that on the list. Actually,
[18:33] I was expecting some dobbies on Forge
[18:36] Weaver. Like, like Dano, shouldn't you
[18:38] hate Well, we'll talk about it when we
[18:39] get there. Um,
[18:41] >> yeah, I have it higher, but uh
[18:42] >> not a huge amount higher.
[18:44] >> Okay. Uh, Forge Weaver for me. 14.
[18:46] >> Forge is your 14. Okay, I have it
[18:47] higher.
[18:48] >> What is yours?
[18:49] >> Uh, my 14 is Rick Reverb.
[18:50] >> Does that mean we can talk about it now
[18:52] or
[18:52] >> I think so. Yeah, I think both,
[18:53] >> I believe. Oh, I copied it from another
[18:55] That's interesting. I actually kind of
[18:57] want Dratnos to start. Why do you have
[18:58] this so high?
[18:59] >> It's a funny boss.
[19:01] >> It has the um It has the music and
[19:04] stuff. One of my guildies had a week or
[19:05] where like it'd play a song that you
[19:07] downloaded into your MP3 and it was like
[19:09] when when the boss dropped and Yeah. I
[19:12] don't know. It was a vibe.
[19:13] >> Yeah. Crazy.
[19:14] >> Also, I liked that. I I I liked how
[19:16] difficult it was that early in the Look,
[19:18] man. Okay. Objectively, it's worse than
[19:20] this, but like for me, it was really
[19:23] funny watching guilds struggle against
[19:24] this as a third boss. They're just
[19:26] getting walled by the third boss on the
[19:28] the first couple weeks on this thing. I
[19:30] don't know.
[19:31] >> Okay. I What do you think? Uh, well, my
[19:34] guild did the we we we cheeded it on
[19:37] Prague. Wait, what does that even mean?
[19:39] >> Where we had an extra tank who ran
[19:40] around and soaked all the debuffs on the
[19:43] original prog so we didn't like very few
[19:45] pulls relative to world rank. Um, which
[19:47] has made re-claring really annoying cuz
[19:49] they fixed that really fast.
[19:50] >> Uh, but yeah, I don't know. This fight
[19:52] was great as a shadow priest. Um,
[19:54] hitting ads was fun, but everything else
[19:56] about the fight sucked bad, which is why
[19:58] I have it really low. I mean, I have
[20:00] this super low for one reason and one
[20:02] reason only was just RNG. Like, how the
[20:05] ads spawned was just completely
[20:07] ridiculous. Like, if you're going to
[20:08] make you unable to kill an ad means that
[20:10] you wipe, you need to have better spawn
[20:13] logic. They spawn within 10 yards of the
[20:14] boss. Like, they can spawn like across
[20:16] the room and they could be stacked
[20:18] versus not stacked. So, I was looking at
[20:19] polls on like when we were figuring out
[20:21] how to kill this where, you know, do we
[20:22] bring in like a do we farm more gear
[20:25] before doing this so we waste less time?
[20:27] Uh, what classes do we bring in? Okay,
[20:30] when we got like two spawns in the fight
[20:32] to be relatively stacked to where we
[20:34] could just AoE them down, our boss
[20:35] damage went up by like by the end of the
[20:38] fight, the boss was just like 6% lower.
[20:40] That's such an insane swing on a check
[20:44] like that just due to pure you could
[20:46] have him on the wall, it doesn't matter.
[20:48] just like pure RNG. Yeah, I thought and
[20:49] and and this just I like symmetrical e
[20:53] not easy but like a way for you to brain
[20:55] out a symmetrical solution to a fight
[20:59] and me figuring out Rick reverb was so
[21:01] annoying because there was no way to do
[21:02] things like in a line of two like that
[21:04] one does solo at the beginning of every
[21:06] phase mean you had to have like a like
[21:08] some weird kind of setup and I just
[21:11] always found it very frustrating that
[21:12] there was no like perfect way to
[21:13] strategize this just personally I just
[21:15] found Rick reverb I just spent so many
[21:17] hours in raid plan trying to come up
[21:18] with some [ __ ] And every time I thought
[21:19] it was great, the guild was like, "Yeah,
[21:21] I don't like it." I'm like, "Okay,
[21:22] fuck." Then I just went back and just
[21:23] came up with just the most basic dog
[21:25] [ __ ] kindergartener strat for this. And
[21:27] that just ended up being the best thing
[21:28] to do. Uh, and that I just hate fights
[21:30] like that.
[21:31] >> I forget. Were you guys uh like close to
[21:33] enrage when you killed it?
[21:34] >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you would you
[21:36] would you basically
[21:37] >> frustrating for you guys?
[21:39] >> For us, it didn't really matter, you
[21:40] know like
[21:40] >> Yeah, the first couple like
[21:43] >> enrage kills. It was uh it was super
[21:45] hard for it was in the raid.
[21:47] >> Yeah. Yeah, it was funny. It was a good
[21:49] prank by Blizzard.
[21:50] >> Um, okay. Onwards. Francing.
[21:55] >> Okay. Yeah, I had it lower. So,
[21:57] >> you had it lower. I haven't listed it
[21:59] yet. So,
[22:00] >> okay. So, we will not talk.
[22:01] >> We continue. Uh, we have my 13, which is
[22:07] Vexi.
[22:08] >> I have it high.
[22:08] >> I have that high.
[22:09] >> My 13 is Forge Weaver.
[22:11] >> Uh, did we proc a talk? We did.
[22:13] >> Right, Max? Oh, you did.
[22:15] >> Yeah, we we both listed it already. Um,
[22:17] okay. I mean, we all have we pretty much
[22:19] agree here. We have Forgew Weaver within
[22:20] a three ranking thing in the middle. So,
[22:23] neither of us were were super offended
[22:26] by this, but none of us thought it like
[22:28] really really owned. And this is, I
[22:30] believe, going to be very different
[22:32] perspectives, right? Like we killed
[22:34] Forge Weaver when it was crazy style
[22:36] like 1 second beams and all that [ __ ]
[22:38] Draatos was like I don't even know if
[22:40] you decided to fight the boss that week
[22:42] or if you waited. We we we got it to 5%
[22:45] that week and then we didn't kill it.
[22:47] >> Oh. And then you and then you like
[22:48] pulled it the next week and it was just
[22:49] a total [ __ ] joke.
[22:50] >> Yeah, we one shot it the next week
[22:51] basically. Like it was it was uh it it
[22:54] was it was it felt like you remember
[22:57] fighting Anduin pre- nerf and then
[22:59] coming back like 3 months later and it's
[23:01] like oh this boss is, you know, a
[23:03] completely different thing. It felt like
[23:04] all of that had happened in one reset
[23:07] for that boss.
[23:08] >> Yeah. And that was uh and then and then
[23:11] Franca is killing it way later when it's
[23:13] in its like non-offensive very easy
[23:16] fourth boss thing. But I think it's
[23:17] still if I remember Forge Weaver even
[23:20] after all those nerfs still was a
[23:22] challenge for a lot of guilds I think
[23:23] because of just like
[23:25] >> the CC chain.
[23:27] >> It was mostly the CC chain. Yeah. Like
[23:29] it it was a kind of frustrating boss to
[23:31] wipe to cuz we didn't like it it didn't
[23:33] feel like it was super outplayable by
[23:35] most of the raid. It usually came down
[23:37] to like two individuals and whether or
[23:39] not they could knock the orbs into the
[23:40] pools. And uh for reclers, we just
[23:42] straight up ended up putting the balls
[23:44] behind the pools not to deal with the CC
[23:46] stuff. Realistically, we probably should
[23:48] have done that during proc too cuz that
[23:50] is just way more consistent.
[23:52] >> That's my fault. We we were talking
[23:54] about doing that in progression
[23:56] >> and a few people were like, "We should
[23:57] go behind and I'm like, well, if we go
[24:00] in front, we're going to get like way
[24:01] more damage on these." And it was such a
[24:02] tight damage check that we coordinated.
[24:04] But people missed their typhoons all the
[24:06] time cuz like it was genuinely like a
[24:08] really tight timing and really hard. And
[24:09] on a fight where as guild skill level
[24:11] and experience level goes down and
[24:13] investment level, the thing that becomes
[24:16] the hardest, this is why and was so hard
[24:18] was assigning people to press a like
[24:20] utility button at a very specific time
[24:22] like a CC chain on anything. That is
[24:24] like the hardest thing for guilds to do.
[24:26] The the lower you go, it's just
[24:28] something about it is just you have to
[24:29] rely on someone. It's very binary. If
[24:31] someone misses it, it's just [ __ ]
[24:32] over. And that is just so challenging.
[24:35] And I think no matter how much they
[24:36] nerfed this boss, that still was really
[24:38] really hard.
[24:39] >> Yeah. And like realistically, we
[24:41] completely blew the boss up um near the
[24:44] end. Like we we got like 10 seconds in
[24:46] the last phase. So we really didn't need
[24:48] the boss damage. It was really just, you
[24:50] know, doing what better guilds were
[24:52] doing for no reason. Um and that kind of
[24:55] [ __ ] my experience of the boss up.
[24:57] >> Prime example of how raid leading a
[24:58] guild at a lower level. the first guild
[25:00] that decided, you know what, we don't
[25:02] need the people are going to mess up the
[25:03] typhoons more than we're going to miss
[25:04] the damage on this stuff. Let's just put
[25:06] them behind that. That is a perfect
[25:08] example of like good strategizing and uh
[25:11] stuff that now that something is
[25:13] different than when the world first
[25:14] killed killed it. Uh
[25:15] >> dude, the crazy thing is we I as soon as
[25:18] we started pulling that boss, I was
[25:19] like, "Okay, we're probably not going to
[25:21] kill this this week. Let's just put it
[25:22] behind cuz that'll be easier and like
[25:25] next week it'll probably be killable
[25:27] that way." And then we were getting it
[25:29] like deep enough there's like okay
[25:31] actually we can make the DPS check if we
[25:32] start putting it in front. So then we we
[25:34] had to do the midweek swap over.
[25:37] >> Oh how many wipes did you have to that?
[25:38] It had to be just all the time.
[25:41] >> Yeah. Uh well we actually we picked it
[25:43] up pretty quick because we yeah we got
[25:44] it to 5% so we we saw the whole fight.
[25:46] We just like didn't have the damage at
[25:48] the end the overall damage. Um but I
[25:51] think we would have if we'd had a couple
[25:52] more hours of frog. I don't know. It's
[25:54] one It's one of many fights on this list
[25:56] where it's like I have a lot of negative
[25:58] feelings about the timing and severity
[26:01] of nerfs for my experience, but I do
[26:03] think the actual Forge Weaver fight that
[26:06] did exist for that week was good enough
[26:08] to save it. Like it basically I'm
[26:10] ranking it above all these fights that I
[26:12] think have no real redeeming
[26:14] characteristics. And this one does,
[26:16] right? Like that was actually really
[26:18] sweet. Yeah, there is another and I
[26:20] don't know if you'd consider this a
[26:21] downside or an upside. I think it's a
[26:22] downside. This boss had this super weird
[26:25] thing where if you hit a certain
[26:26] threshold before the last phase started,
[26:28] the boss would AFK for like 8 seconds
[26:30] doing this knockback cast and it just
[26:32] made the last phase a total joke because
[26:34] it just gave you infinite more time of
[26:35] standing still. And I I I can't remember
[26:37] a boss that had something like that.
[26:40] That's just so I always thought it was
[26:41] like a I thought it was a bug.
[26:42] >> I think the jailer had this thing where
[26:44] if you did something right uh it kind of
[26:46] stopped doing mechanics for a bit as
[26:47] well. I think that one was pretty
[26:49] >> Oh yeah, if you did something right.
[26:50] Yeah. Uh but it wasn't a bug though. It
[26:52] was like
[26:53] >> No, it was an accident. It was an
[26:54] accident.
[26:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh
[26:57] >> okay. Uh Franc
[26:59] 13.
[27:00] >> Uh Soulbinder.
[27:01] >> Soulbinder. I think we both had it
[27:03] lower.
[27:04] >> Okay. I I don't know how you guys have I
[27:07] mean I guess we're like kind of close.
[27:09] There's a big soup of bosses in the
[27:11] middle of this where just a slight
[27:12] opinion change can have something go a
[27:15] few things higher. I the only thing I
[27:17] could see as a positive review of
[27:18] Soulbinder is when you're doing this
[27:20] boss on farm, it's just like super
[27:22] basic. There's a little AoE thing,
[27:23] you're single targeting, very little
[27:24] going on. And for an early boss, it's
[27:27] like the assault of Zakali uh opinion
[27:30] where it's like I don't know, it's just
[27:31] kind of non-offensive. You just go in
[27:33] there and kill it real quick and it's
[27:34] all right. You get some loot from it.
[27:35] Like maybe that's the soul binding
[27:36] argument. But like the fact that the
[27:37] boss never changes in any way. You just
[27:39] you just do the same thing over and over
[27:41] again and it's so basic. I just feel
[27:42] like is it's so uninspired that it's
[27:44] hard to rank it very high.
[27:46] >> I mean the the only reason I have it
[27:48] this high is because I don't really have
[27:49] anything bad to say about it. Like
[27:51] nothing really happens. You just kind of
[27:53] there dies and then I go out and that's
[27:54] it.
[27:55] >> I mean I had it lower, but it's like I I
[27:58] get it right. It's it doesn't do
[27:59] anything bad. Like you're you have no
[28:01] negative experiences while fighting Soul
[28:02] Binder and his injury, right? Like you
[28:04] walk up, you kill incredibly
[28:06] forgettable.
[28:07] >> That's kind of cool. Like I don't know.
[28:08] That's that experience is much better
[28:10] than like fighting an actively unfun
[28:12] boss, which some of these were. Also,
[28:14] their dungeon journal, they try really
[28:17] hard to have the dungeon journal even in
[28:19] a nonlinear raid like uh Giwick's raid
[28:22] is probably the best example of this
[28:23] where like you I think you technically
[28:24] could have fought any of the first five
[28:26] bosses first that they still list their
[28:29] dungeon journal in the difficulty
[28:31] intended difficulty order which means
[28:33] that in a raid like this with very
[28:35] little uh nonlinear stuff there the only
[28:38] choice that existed was uh was whether
[28:42] you killed Soulbinder or Lumathar first,
[28:44] right? I think I guess you could have
[28:45] technically gone to Fractalus or Soul
[28:46] Hunters, but like Lumathar is the second
[28:49] boss in the journal, meaning that they
[28:51] intended Lumathar to be easier than
[28:52] Soulbinder. That is just what that
[28:54] means. And the fact that Soulbinder was
[28:57] so much easier than Lumathar, or I guess
[28:59] the way you could look at it is Lumathar
[29:01] was so much more difficult than
[29:01] Soulbinder. And I ranked both of those
[29:04] bosses lower than I would have because
[29:06] someone did something very wrong in the
[29:08] fight. And and I know that doesn't
[29:09] really matter to a lot of people like
[29:10] whether which one's the second or third
[29:11] boss. I just know that they intended
[29:13] Soulbinder to be harder. So, what could
[29:15] have went wrong for it to be that wrong?
[29:17] >> Yeah. How was that fight supposed to be
[29:18] hard? I don't know.
[29:20] >> I don't know where they saw the
[29:21] difficulty. Got to agree with
[29:22] >> Dra. Okay. Um, cool. Soulbinder. Yeah.
[29:26] Makes sense that also that Soulbinder
[29:28] will be the least that we talk about any
[29:29] fight cuz
[29:30] >> Yeah.
[29:31] >> What what what is even happening here?
[29:33] Uh, okay. My 12 is rationan. Do you guys
[29:37] both have that lower? I think you do.
[29:39] >> I do have that lower. Yeah,
[29:40] >> I had it lower. Yeah. I'm going to
[29:41] defend it before Draos thrashes it. We
[29:45] one-shot this boss, but it was
[29:46] exhilarating. We didn't know what was
[29:48] happening the whole time. We were like,
[29:51] for the first time ever, you're just
[29:52] like actually like rationan done any
[29:55] other way runs away after like a
[29:57] two-minute cycle. This boss like every
[29:58] 40 seconds is charging across the room.
[30:00] And it was just what the [ __ ] is
[30:02] happening? This is so different from
[30:04] heroic. And I've never seen them do a
[30:06] boss like that before. And I give it
[30:08] points for just being unique and really
[30:11] having a completely like unique boss
[30:13] experience. Uh it was very easy. I think
[30:16] you could also take points away from
[30:18] rationan because I believe forgewaver
[30:20] and sticks were both direct casualties
[30:23] of rationan being the way it was. Uh but
[30:27] I don't know. I I just thought rationan
[30:28] was cooler than I expected to be. That's
[30:30] coming from someone who saw the heroic
[30:33] version of the boss or during testing
[30:34] and we were ranking these bosses
[30:35] pre-expansion and I said it feels like
[30:37] rationale was made by AI which I should
[30:40] not have said and as you might have
[30:42] expected people who design bosses really
[30:45] really really don't like it when you
[30:48] imply that the boss they made was made
[30:50] with with artificial intelligence. So
[30:52] I'm just ranking it a little higher.
[30:53] >> So you you gave us some pity points.
[30:55] That was
[30:55] >> Well, I maybe slightly, but also I I did
[30:59] I did find it very entertaining. It was
[31:00] very fun to do.
[31:01] >> Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I don't know.
[31:03] This fight was It's just a forgettable
[31:05] fight. Like, you just kind of run up and
[31:07] down. You get pulled. The boss dies.
[31:10] Like, nothing nothing really happens.
[31:11] And I'm playing a slow ass class. That
[31:13] [ __ ] sucked. Just running slow, having
[31:16] no fun. Yeah,
[31:16] >> dude. I don't know. I think it was like
[31:18] a little worse than than those because
[31:21] you also set up this huge difficulty
[31:25] chasm that were like not just the
[31:27] problem of the next two raids they made
[31:29] the fourth boss nuclear difficulty
[31:30] because of this. I I don't think you can
[31:32] really fairly blame Rashan for that cuz
[31:33] that's like that's still their
[31:35] decision-m but like the fact that brood
[31:37] twister was such an awful experience
[31:39] directly followed from how quickly you
[31:41] got there which a huge part of that
[31:43] problem was how easy rashon and to a
[31:45] lesser extent sick and and stuff were as
[31:47] well before it. So I think it it needs
[31:49] to get some of the blame for that too. I
[31:52] mean,
[31:52] >> I'm not going to blame Rashanax on
[31:54] ration, man. He did nothing.
[31:57] It is a real thing. What Draos is saying
[31:59] is better, but Oven axe is unredeemable.
[32:02] That boss is the worst thing they've
[32:03] ever made.
[32:04] >> Okay, I I have a maybe a little bit
[32:07] different way of looking at this. So, I
[32:09] think forgewaver I think as long as you
[32:12] make eight boss raids, it is extremely
[32:14] likely that you are going to have a
[32:16] rationan to brood twister jump. You're
[32:19] going to have a Rick Reverb to sticks, a
[32:23] whatever boss you killed into uh Forge
[32:26] Weaver, like forge weaver sticks,
[32:28] whatever that th those are. With only
[32:30] eight bosses, it's really hard to get
[32:33] from a first boss to what a last boss
[32:37] is. And they're just simply there isn't
[32:39] enough bosses for there not to be some
[32:41] jagged spike in difficulty throughout.
[32:44] So, I don't even know if I would blame
[32:45] Rashin for Rovenax. I would almost blame
[32:49] not having 10 boss raids on basically
[32:51] all three of the raids in this expansion
[32:53] having that issue.
[32:54] >> Yeah, I think there there's definitely I
[32:56] I am a big fan of going up to more
[32:58] bosses as well. But I do think that when
[33:00] the jump is from one pull to over a
[33:03] hundred in one boss like that
[33:06] >> that is a little bit more than
[33:08] necessary.
[33:09] >> Isn't that what happened in the other
[33:10] two bosses too though? Is that identical
[33:12] to Rick Reverb? I guess Rick reverb was
[33:14] a little bit harder than
[33:15] >> these are like is like you know seven to
[33:19] to 100 which is still really bad but
[33:21] like literally one to
[33:23] >> how many people one shot Rashan.
[33:25] >> I think we had four pulls.
[33:26] >> We were the only guild in the top 10 to
[33:28] do it. So I don't know how many.
[33:29] >> But also the difficulty spike in at
[33:31] least mana forge wasn't that bad for us.
[33:33] Like Lumathar was a 31 pull boss. We did
[33:35] 33 on forgew weaver. We did 18 on
[33:38] Fractalus and then
[33:39] >> yeah, the difficulty was even for most
[33:41] other guilds in on Rick Reverb as well,
[33:43] right? Cuz like Reverb was uh was 30
[33:46] pulls, 50 pulls for a lot of guilds.
[33:48] >> Okay, so Lr Rinan and and just before we
[33:52] move off of this, I'm very interested in
[33:55] what difficulty curve spikes look like
[33:58] in the expansion because it's just crazy
[34:00] that this happened three raids in a row
[34:01] and basically hasn't happened before
[34:03] this expansion. Uh I Oh, Biff is saying
[34:07] that method one shot ration. All right,
[34:08] I made that up. L me. Um okay. Uh but I
[34:13] want to see next expansion how that
[34:14] works. And especially with the way
[34:16] they're laying out these raids, right?
[34:18] You're getting seven total bosses within
[34:20] two raids right away and then you're
[34:21] getting a two boss raid. But the last
[34:23] boss of the first raid is supposed to be
[34:25] as hard as the second to last boss. And
[34:28] the last boss and the raid that's coming
[34:30] out delayed is supposed to be the true
[34:31] end boss. But then the one boss raid is
[34:33] supposed to be the fourth boss. I I
[34:35] could just see a lot of weird difficulty
[34:37] curve swings. Let's just revisit this
[34:40] after next raid. I could I could see
[34:42] there being another rationand situation.
[34:44] Not just because it's happened three
[34:45] times in a row, but because just the way
[34:46] the raids are laid out. Uh okay,
[34:48] Dratnos, you're number 12.
[34:50] >> Uh my number 12 was Sticks Bunk Junker.
[34:53] >> Okay. Uh we both have that lower. All
[34:56] right, Draos, what is your redeeming
[34:58] qualities of Sticks? Yeah. I mean, you
[35:00] driving around on the ball. That was
[35:02] kind of fun. It was There's a lot of
[35:04] He's a tank. He's a tank. He's a tank.
[35:05] He's tank.
[35:05] >> Were you Were you driving the ball every
[35:06] time?
[35:06] >> Yeah, man. I got to drive. I got a
[35:08] different game, bro. I get
[35:09] >> this. Sick. I mean, wouldn't that be the
[35:11] best example of this? Like, like, if
[35:13] you're going to take the ball as a
[35:15] negative, wouldn't talking to someone
[35:17] who did the ball literally multiple
[35:19] times every
[35:20] >> You see where the tank that did the ball
[35:21] was on the damage meter, man, that was
[35:23] not negative. Ros was on the top the
[35:25] entire time.
[35:25] >> Oh, true. Maybe that's it. driving
[35:27] around vroom vroom. Get
[35:29] >> I think the problem with the ball wasn't
[35:31] necessarily driving it though.
[35:32] >> Yeah. And and if you drove it one out of
[35:35] every, you know, 12 casts or whatever
[35:37] and so you got to do it once every
[35:38] couple pulls. It was both not often
[35:40] enough to be fun, but also when it did
[35:42] happen, you weren't like super practiced
[35:44] on it. So there was a good chance you'd
[35:45] screw it up. So I think the tank version
[35:47] of it was way more fun if you were, you
[35:49] know, just always always on the ball.
[35:51] >> Yeah. Now, the issue for me was also, at
[35:53] least with the the way my class played,
[35:55] like your cooldown timings could get
[35:57] really [ __ ] by getting a ball. And the
[36:00] chances of getting a ball were not
[36:01] really big enough to play around it
[36:03] every time. And it was like you had to
[36:04] hold sometimes and then not hold. And
[36:06] then
[36:06] >> some poles you get ball three times,
[36:08] some ps you get ball zero time. And
[36:10] yeah, I don't know. The ball kind of
[36:12] sucked.
[36:12] >> I thought about having sticks way
[36:14] higher. And the reason I went back on it
[36:16] is I remembered how much RNG there was.
[36:18] Uh yeah, like you had you were class
[36:20] stacking daughters and stuff, but like
[36:21] sometimes just all the all the the like
[36:25] little uh crabs you had to kill with the
[36:27] bombs. They just spawned on top of the
[36:29] balls and
[36:30] >> sometimes your daughters get ball man
[36:32] and then everything lives.
[36:33] >> Oh yeah, actually you have like sh So
[36:35] like one set later in the fight was
[36:37] heavily carried by shadow priest 2
[36:39] minutes and we were just like every pull
[36:41] just praying that they didn't get
[36:42] picked. Healers could get picked, by the
[36:44] way, which you were three healing this
[36:45] fight. Meaning that every time balls
[36:47] were coming out, there was one healer
[36:49] with cooldowns that was carrying you
[36:50] through the next little bit. And if they
[36:52] got picked, it was just red alert, all
[36:54] hellstones, all health pots, slam
[36:57] everything, and you would still wipe.
[36:58] And that I feel like that element of RNG
[37:01] in an already really hard boss is just
[37:03] poor boss design. Like that shouldn't
[37:05] like healers just simply shouldn't have
[37:06] gotten the ball. Pretty pretty uh
[37:08] blading. even if they didn't, you could
[37:10] still wipe to the DPS not getting it.
[37:13] Um, and then also, this is a famous boss
[37:16] that there's another boss later in the
[37:19] raid uh that also had this issue where
[37:22] you feel like you're you you should kill
[37:24] the boss far before you actually do. Uh,
[37:28] >> yeah,
[37:29] >> it's like uh bosses that trick you into
[37:31] thinking that you're farther than you
[37:32] are. And they almost all have one thing
[37:34] in common. The sticks ball is what it is
[37:37] in this example where over the course of
[37:39] 30 minutes you can have a stretch where
[37:41] basically the same people get picked
[37:43] just by pure RNG and naturally you will
[37:45] have really good pulls because
[37:47] everyone's not only experienced with the
[37:49] ball but they've done it recently and
[37:50] then you're like getting a crazy low
[37:52] pull. Okay, we wiped it 15%. And then
[37:55] for the next 30 minutes, entirely new
[37:57] people get it. And then before you can
[38:00] even have a chance to have the good
[38:01] people get it again, you're now
[38:02] regressing because you're just upset
[38:04] that you think you're playing bad
[38:06] because you can't identify that. And
[38:08] then and then now you're tilting for an
[38:10] hour because you think you're you all
[38:11] think that you're bad, right? And then
[38:13] that that's a bosses like that are
[38:15] infuriating and and you're not wrong in
[38:18] thinking that because it's almost
[38:19] impossible in real time to parse why
[38:21] that's happening. Like imagine a raid
[38:22] leader saying, "Oh guys, I know we're
[38:24] all feeling down that we wiped, but
[38:27] really on that pull, Draatnos and Frunk
[38:29] got the ball and they haven't gotten it
[38:30] all night and of course they were going
[38:32] to [ __ ] it up, you know? It's like like
[38:33] that's not No one wants to hear that,
[38:35] right? You you you want to, you know?"
[38:36] So So I I uh I think a lot of
[38:39] >> started on like putting people in either
[38:41] like you cannot bench people on that
[38:42] fight during prog.
[38:43] >> Oh my god.
[38:44] >> You're missing a guy. Good luck, bro.
[38:45] Good luck. New guy, good luck. Yeah,
[38:47] that's that is uh also just I don't know
[38:50] if this is a 21st man thing, but like
[38:52] seeing some people in your guild get the
[38:54] ball and even after countless VOD review
[38:57] and they've gotten the ball enough
[38:59] seeing them, this is just one of those
[39:01] mechanics where some people are just
[39:03] simply not going to get it. Like you you
[39:05] have a priority system. You run over
[39:06] this thing first. If you have the the
[39:09] hyenas in your way, they're a priority.
[39:11] And just seeing people like 80 pulls
[39:13] into this in the the best guild in the
[39:15] world or so they say. Just running into
[39:18] the medium over and over again because
[39:20] you're not big enough to actually soak
[39:21] it and just not changing that and being
[39:23] like this is [ __ ] Something's bugged.
[39:25] It's just insane. Like it's just [ __ ]
[39:27] insane.
[39:28] >> Uh I don't know. Very very frustrating.
[39:31] >> All right. You guys uh done with
[39:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. We can move on.
[39:34] >> Tank opinion. Tanks top of the meters.
[39:37] >> I'm I'm convinced I should have probably
[39:38] had it a little lower than this. the
[39:39] >> well I mean that's I don't even think
[39:41] that's I don't even think that's well
[39:43] okay a lot of stuff in the middle I
[39:44] could probably argue should be a little
[39:45] bit up or a little low because there's
[39:46] just a lot of bosses to rank but I do
[39:48] like that this is all our own individual
[39:49] thing this is why it's better in a tier
[39:51] list you don't have to agree yeah you
[39:52] don't have to agree you can have
[39:54] different perspectives there there's a
[39:55] reason why
[39:56] >> yourself on the top of the meters and
[39:57] you put it up there man I get
[39:59] >> W uh okay uh you're 12
[40:02] >> uh plexus
[40:04] >> uh is that the first boss of Oh I have
[40:06] this I have this higher
[40:08] >> manor mega Yeah, I have an iron.
[40:09] >> Yeah, this is a banger. Uh, and also
[40:12] another thing about randomly rating
[40:13] these is like really how do you rate
[40:16] like a mid end boss versus like a really
[40:18] good second boss?
[40:19] >> Like what what are you doing? You're
[40:20] you're you're just [ __ ] making it up.
[40:22] Like they're like it's it's really
[40:24] really hard to do that. Uh, okay. My 11
[40:28] is bloodbound horror.
[40:29] >> Mine is the soul hunters.
[40:31] >> Oh, wait. Did No, no. Francine is also
[40:35] at 11.
[40:36] >> Oh, yours is also at 11. And then Draos,
[40:38] what was yours?
[40:38] >> Yeah.
[40:39] >> Uh, Soul Hunters.
[40:40] >> Soul Hunters. Do we have three Soul
[40:42] Hunters now?
[40:43] >> Mine's Mine's the way down there. So,
[40:45] yeah.
[40:45] >> Uh, okay. Yeah. So, we have
[40:47] >> If you've played it, yeah,
[40:48] >> let's do uh let's do Soul Hunters first.
[40:50] I'll just delete that thing for now. Uh,
[40:52] okay. Uh, Francos
[40:56] has it almost top 10. So, let's let's
[40:58] start with Frock. Frank, what do you
[40:59] hate about this fight?
[41:00] >> That's all Reo's fault. We were having a
[41:03] nice recar. We're doing our thing. said,
[41:06] "Hey, let's do Soul Hunters. They got
[41:08] nice boots." Relo, that German bastard,
[41:11] decides to push a weak or update at some
[41:12] point that like changed the way they
[41:14] assigned people to things or like healer
[41:17] dispels or something like that. And we
[41:19] proceeded to spend the next 3 hours on
[41:21] Soul Hunter. For that sole reason, Soul
[41:24] Hunters is one of the lowest bosses for
[41:26] me. It was the least fun I've ever had
[41:27] rating. Um, it was it was a miserable
[41:30] experience. The boss was just it's so
[41:32] random. So much [ __ ] happens.
[41:34] Nothing is fun. Everything's bad.
[41:35] Everything is evil.
[41:37] >> I mean, I can't even complain because my
[41:39] my rationale on Kyza, which I'm sure
[41:42] both of you will be way higher, is like
[41:44] almost exactly the same thing as you,
[41:46] where like we had a very niche issue
[41:48] with the fight that just made me
[41:49] absolutely hate it. So, I certainly
[41:50] cannot dock you uh hating Soul Hunters.
[41:53] Dragnos, you have it relatively high. I
[41:55] think yours being 11 and mine being 17
[41:57] is probably enough actually to
[41:59] differentiate. So, like what what about
[42:00] Soul Hunters makes it feel like it's a
[42:02] pretty good fight? Yeah, I I thought it
[42:04] was a fun fight. You know, like your uh
[42:06] your fifth healer gets to play for a
[42:07] bit. That's cool. You know, you like
[42:09] that you're like your fifth healer. It's
[42:10] nice that they get the chance to to play
[42:12] some World of Warcraft every once in a
[42:13] while. Um I don't know, you're kind of
[42:16] moving the boss around the room and you
[42:18] get to sit all your useless melee
[42:19] players that you don't like. So, that's
[42:21] also nice, right? Like you got you got
[42:22] some of the people you like in the raid,
[42:23] some of the people you don't like on the
[42:24] bench. Um yeah, I don't know. The fight
[42:28] dies during the enrage in a kind of fun
[42:29] way for at least for me it did, right?
[42:31] where it's like you kill one of them and
[42:33] then it's sort of starting to do its
[42:35] pulse damage and it dies. Has really
[42:37] good loot as well, so it's an exciting
[42:38] boss to kill just cuz like what am I
[42:41] going to get the boots this week? No,
[42:42] I'm not. But I could I could think maybe
[42:44] I will, right? It's like playing the
[42:45] lottery. Okay. I I think I have two
[42:48] reasons that put it in between where
[42:49] both of you had it. So, so number one,
[42:52] uh I think leading up to the raid, the
[42:54] amount of like conversation points
[42:55] around like, oh my god, they made an
[42:57] optional boss that has like this crazy
[42:58] [ __ ] loot and how that progressed
[43:00] into just being it's just a regular boss
[43:02] in a raid.
[43:03] >> I just felt like I wasted my [ __ ]
[43:05] time. That's all. I don't know whose
[43:06] fault that is, but that happened. And
[43:08] then uh Okay, so you guys are mentioning
[43:12] uh you know like people in your raid
[43:14] like we issues. Weores were like kind of
[43:16] a thing here. I thought it was like kind
[43:17] of fun to strategize. I I thought the
[43:19] way you killed it was really cool. I'm a
[43:21] big fan in council bosses of not having
[43:23] them all die at the same time. I think
[43:25] having a non-binary punishment when they
[43:28] die, meaning that like it's not pass
[43:29] fail, if you do something wrong, you're
[43:31] inst it's instantly over. Having a like
[43:33] one council guy dies and then it starts
[43:36] ramping raid damage and then the same
[43:37] thing when the second one dies. I think
[43:39] that's so interesting as far as how you
[43:42] end up killing the fight. And it's so
[43:43] much more fun to figure out than just,
[43:46] okay, just make sure they all die at the
[43:47] same time. like figuring out which
[43:48] mechanics you want to have stop first
[43:51] and then how long can you heal through
[43:52] the ramping damage is really really fun.
[43:54] I would have had it where Dratnos had it
[43:56] for one but for one uh two reasons
[43:58] really. One was the one I already
[44:00] mentioned the uh the like talking points
[44:04] before the raid about the optional boss
[44:05] for no reason but also because of
[44:07] [ __ ] warlocks. So we would have
[44:09] killed this boss like five or six pulls
[44:12] minimum before this point. But our
[44:14] warlocks kept gaslighting us into not
[44:16] hitting the tank guy and instead hitting
[44:18] one of the lower health ones just so we
[44:20] could get it within execute range so
[44:22] they could gain some mobility. Uh
[44:25] >> the queen score gambit.
[44:26] >> Yeah. They were like just [ __ ] burn
[44:29] the the small guys, but then what would
[44:31] happen is they would just keep dying too
[44:33] fast even if we were all off of them
[44:35] after we got them into execute range.
[44:37] And then they would just die and it
[44:39] would just wipe us. And then we were
[44:40] like, you know what we're going to do,
[44:41] Warlocks? We're not going to do that at
[44:42] all. We're just going to hit the one
[44:44] with the most HP because that's the one
[44:45] we want to have die first anyway and
[44:47] then we're gonna win and then we
[44:49] one-shot it. So So I just I it just uh
[44:53] Warlock's wasting my time type [ __ ]
[44:55] Only reason.
[44:57] >> Yeah, I'm not going to lie. I've been
[44:58] convinced to to move it up a spot solely
[45:00] because Draos mentioned that there were
[45:01] almost no melee. Something I had almost
[45:03] completely forgot about this encounter.
[45:05] >> Would you like to do that? Yeah. Can you
[45:07] can you move fractals down one for me
[45:09] and soul hunters up one? Yeah.
[45:10] >> Um
[45:11] >> yeah, [ __ ] you. Relo.
[45:13] >> Wow. Wow.
[45:14] >> No, check the screenshot I posted uh in
[45:16] the chat by the way after our raid.
[45:18] >> These are Re's weak or a fixes after
[45:21] their raid on this day. Soul hunters
[45:23] dispel weak or a fix. Actual soul
[45:25] hunters fix now. Soul hunters dispel
[45:27] weak or fix some minor dimensions
[45:28] changes. So it happened over the course
[45:30] of three and then franc also after that
[45:31] posted a a like nuclear explosion gift
[45:35] which I I'm going to say if you guys
[45:37] ever want to post this uh just be
[45:39] careful. Do not be sponsored by
[45:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. Don't Don't post this gift
[45:45] in the wrong situations is all I'll say.
[45:47] Uh okay.
[45:48] >> I want you to know that GIF is also in
[45:50] Rio's DMs from that read.
[45:51] >> Beautiful. All right. Um, okay. Wow. If
[45:54] no one actually followed that whole
[45:56] Honda stuff, they're just so confused
[45:57] over what the [ __ ] I'm talking about.
[45:58] But all good. Uh, Franc number 11.
[46:02] >> Blood Hound
[46:03] >> Blood Bloodbound horror. And that is uh
[46:05] Oh, yeah. You already told me that. That
[46:07] is the I believe the last we have it.
[46:10] >> Yeah, cuz I had it in 18.
[46:11] >> Yeah, you had it a little lower. I just
[46:13] think Bloodbound is a [ __ ] banger
[46:14] second boss. I I don't know how much
[46:16] higher you can put a like second boss, I
[46:18] guess. Except I do have a second boss
[46:20] higher as well as I think both of you
[46:21] do. Uh but I don't know. It just it
[46:24] owns, right? You like rotate in a
[46:25] circle, you AoE some ads when you're
[46:27] downstairs, I guess like if you're a
[46:29] DPS, you kind of want to go down. I I
[46:31] forget if it's first or second because
[46:32] if you like use your stuff on the pole,
[46:34] it's kind of like
[46:36] >> it [snorts] depends on how much you
[46:37] cleave and whatnot. I think for me it
[46:38] was technically best to go down second
[46:40] because it also lined up better with
[46:41] your second set of cool downs or
[46:42] something like that.
[46:42] >> Yeah, exactly. But like if you killed it
[46:44] after the third set of ads, you'd want
[46:46] to go down first and third and hold and
[46:48] >> Yeah.
[46:49] >> Yeah. I don't know.
[46:50] >> I don't know. It was fun. Nothing too
[46:52] major happened. Boss died pretty fast.
[46:54] >> If every boss If every second boss in
[46:56] WoW's history was bloodbound horror in
[46:58] just a slightly different way, we'd be
[46:59] chilling there. At least in terms of
[47:01] quality. Big fan.
[47:02] >> Yeah. I don't really know why I have it
[47:04] that low. That that was pretty
[47:05] unfortunate because I I think you guys
[47:07] [laughter] I can't I can't find
[47:08] something to complain about about it. So
[47:11] rather [clears throat] than make
[47:12] something stupid up, I Yeah, good deal.
[47:14] >> That happened.
[47:15] >> Yeah, Reptar really agreed with that. I
[47:16] don't think you heard it in Discord, but
[47:17] he started yelling.
[47:18] >> I heard like a tiny bit. It got like
[47:20] caught by the noise fresh or whatever.
[47:22] >> Yeah. Um Yeah. Okay, that's it.
[47:24] Bloodbound horror. Good fight. Um my 10.
[47:28] We're getting into the bangers. So,
[47:30] let's start it off with a huge banger.
[47:33] Silken Court. Uh,
[47:34] >> all right. Let's talk about it. I need
[47:36] to know why this said 10 immediately.
[47:38] >> I mean, dude, it's just cool. It had The
[47:40] only issue with Silken Court was it was
[47:42] over nerfed, right? It was right after
[47:44] the Kyza one tank thing. So, they like
[47:45] nerfed this fight because of all the one
[47:48] tank stuff. You could one tank Silken
[47:50] Court. So, they like just nerfed the
[47:52] [ __ ] out of the fight. So, you brought a
[47:53] second tank even though it never needed
[47:55] to be nerfed with two tanks. Because
[47:56] like if the damage tech was harder, I
[47:58] think it would have been more
[47:58] interesting. I don't I just don't
[47:59] understand why a lot of people don't
[48:00] like this fight. Like it was pretty cool
[48:02] to strategize. And I understand that's
[48:03] not something that everyone would do on
[48:04] this, but like the way you actually
[48:06] rotated and why was just really cool.
[48:09] The way you had to like do CC, uh having
[48:13] people go under for dispels, I just feel
[48:15] like it all it it and and I give them
[48:17] major points for being unique. There's
[48:19] never been a fight like Silken Court.
[48:21] And and since then they've done the
[48:23] silken court bit just in slightly less
[48:25] punishing ways. Um but I don't know like
[48:28] like also visually like the boss like
[48:31] charges across the room into some webs.
[48:33] Damage amps are kind of cool. You can
[48:34] get like two target damage amps. Your
[48:36] boss positioning really mattered. I
[48:37] don't know like why do why do you guys
[48:39] hate it?
[48:39] >> You want to go first?
[48:40] >> Yeah. I mean, I think that it did have
[48:42] those merits, but when you weren't
[48:45] trailblazing this boss, it was very very
[48:48] like you will do exactly what the guild
[48:51] before you did. And like the there's
[48:54] very little room for creativity or
[48:56] anything here. It was mostly a fight
[48:58] about just like understanding why they
[49:00] did exactly what they did. And there are
[49:01] some fights where it's like, "Hey, huh,
[49:04] I'm going to do something different than
[49:05] them, like cuz I think this is going to
[49:06] be better for us." And then this was a
[49:08] fight where if you ever did that, you
[49:10] would learn the hard way why they why
[49:12] you guys did something, right? It's
[49:13] like, "Oh, [ __ ] I
[49:15] >> I we lost a bunch of pulls because I
[49:17] tried to do something cute here, right?"
[49:18] And like this does not actually work. I
[49:20] need to do exactly what Liquid did or
[49:22] else I'm I'm uh I'm wiping. And
[49:25] >> I don't know that to me that puts a a
[49:27] ceiling on how high a boss can go.
[49:29] >> The fight felt incredibly like
[49:32] one-dimensional. It's like either you do
[49:34] exactly what the robot says or you wipe.
[49:36] And there was no real in between and
[49:38] there was no real like extra difficult.
[49:40] Like the difficulty didn't feel good at
[49:42] all. At least when we did it, it was
[49:44] just wait for people to listen to the
[49:46] the video, you know, wait for people to
[49:48] move exactly how they're supposed to
[49:50] move and that's about it. There's no
[49:51] like try to do more damage. There's no
[49:53] like anything. It really just had very
[49:56] few redeeming qualities, at least to me.
[49:58] >> It was one of those bosses as well where
[49:59] like you do the same thing pull after
[50:01] pull.
[50:02] >> Oh yeah. It was not a short fight. very
[50:05] little of it is something where it's
[50:06] like, "Oh, this pull I got targeted by
[50:08] this." Like, "Oh, this pull this
[50:09] happened to me." Like, "I I need to
[50:11] learn how to deal with this." It's like,
[50:12] "No, if you you've done the fight once
[50:14] properly, like you you can press
[50:16] basically those same keyboard inputs
[50:18] every time."
[50:19] >> Yeah. Okay. But let me let me counter
[50:22] that with you could also do some MLG
[50:24] [ __ ] clips on this fight. Like like
[50:26] if you were on like the far team that
[50:27] had to bait that one thing out like late
[50:29] in the phase and then you also got like
[50:31] the earthquake spawn on you. There was
[50:33] just some clips of people staying alive
[50:35] that I just I actually couldn't believe
[50:36] they didn't kill them or someone else.
[50:39] Uh
[50:40] >> yeah. No, no, I get where you're coming
[50:41] from there. But that's the thing is if
[50:42] you tried to do those plays, nine times
[50:44] out of 10 you're wiping your raid.
[50:46] >> So the one clip is really cool. The
[50:48] other 10 times you're just like, "Okay,
[50:49] run it back, bro. Eight more minutes.
[50:51] Let's go."
[50:52] >> I can I can get the eight minutes. The
[50:53] eight minutes no RNG. You're always
[50:55] doing the same thing. I can definitely
[50:57] feel that. Also, especially if you're
[50:59] not like a class where naturally you do
[51:01] a lot of damage, the damage amps,
[51:02] >> the damage amps were very annoyingly
[51:05] timed, right? They didn't like line up
[51:07] with a lot of CDs. They were like really
[51:09] >> You know how I know I hate this fight?
[51:10] My class did a [ __ ] ton of damage and I
[51:12] hated it. [laughter]
[51:13] >> I was I was pumping and I was having no
[51:15] fun. This [ __ ] sucked. Also, I think
[51:18] part of it was like people always end up
[51:20] complaining near the end of a patch that
[51:22] don't raid a lot and they end up
[51:25] disliking the last boss or the second to
[51:27] last boss for I'm sure there are a lot
[51:30] of valid reasons, but I think part of it
[51:32] is like you're just kind of done at that
[51:34] point. Like you've been raiding for uh
[51:37] like a couple of months and you know you
[51:40] you're you're looking to you want to do
[51:41] this again, but maybe when the next
[51:43] season comes out like you're kind of
[51:44] just waiting for the raid progression to
[51:45] be over. or at least some of your raid
[51:46] feels that way. And Silken Court by that
[51:49] point, Ansurak was actually easier than
[51:51] Silken Court for like a lot of guilds,
[51:53] right? Like Silken Court was the hard
[51:54] part and then once you got to Answer, it
[51:56] just got [ __ ] on. Uh I don't think that
[51:58] was maybe true for either of your
[51:59] guilds, but that was true later. Um and
[52:02] maybe a lot of those guilds look at Sila
[52:04] Court as like the wall and they're like,
[52:05] "Man, I disliked this cuz like when I
[52:07] was on this boss, I was just waiting for
[52:09] it to be over and I just didn't
[52:10] appreciate it." Like I just wonder if
[52:12] there's any negative bias towards guilds
[52:14] that clear cutting edge late in patches
[52:15] against just later bosses because
[52:18] they're over it and that happens to be
[52:20] the boss they're fighting when they're
[52:21] over it.
[52:22] >> I don't know. Like it it was definitely
[52:23] rough coming off. You went four bosses
[52:26] that was like sub 10 poles into uh
[52:29] openax where we had over 100 polls. Uh
[52:32] Kysta where we had over 100 polls. We
[52:34] had Silicon Core where we had over 200
[52:36] polls. Like it was definitely a uh a
[52:38] sluggish part of the tier. But Anzak I
[52:41] have p like rated insanely high. So I
[52:43] feel like it can't be only because of
[52:45] that. But Silken Court might suffer due
[52:48] to the grindiness of the two bosses
[52:50] before.
[52:50] >> Yeah. Okay. Uh Silken Court dealt with
[52:55] what is your 10 Datnos?
[52:56] >> Uh Plexus Sentinel.
[52:58] >> Um I have it slightly higher and you
[53:03] have it uh Franc listed. Uh Franc, what
[53:05] is your 10?
[53:06] >> Dementious.
[53:08] >> Whoa. Jesus Christ.
[53:10] >> Wow. Okay.
[53:12] >> I'm very interested to hear about that
[53:14] in a long time for me.
[53:15] >> All about
[53:16] >> Yeah, [laughter] I have slightly higher.
[53:17] >> Yeah. Uh we have uh uh let's see. Number
[53:21] nine for me is Sprocketmonger.
[53:24] >> I have that.
[53:25] >> I have uh I have that higher.
[53:27] >> Yeah. Uh Dratnos, your nine.
[53:29] >> My number nine is Chrome King Gywix.
[53:33] >> I have that higher. And
[53:34] >> here's my number nine, which might be
[53:36] really controversial considering what I
[53:38] just dropped, but give me S. Give me SN
[53:40] at nine.
[53:41] >> Yeah, just S. Yeah, Sran just dunks
[53:44] Dementius, by the way. Just like Yeah,
[53:46] it's easy.
[53:46] >> Hey, listen. I get it. But once again,
[53:48] we're raiding a third boss versus the
[53:49] last boss. And third bosses, I'd rather
[53:51] have Sen than the last boss, I'd have
[53:53] Dementius. S wasn't a fun fight, man. I
[53:55] I had good fun. I should uh It kind of
[53:58] hurts, so you have to use your
[53:59] defensives kind of good. It's a third
[54:01] boss, so it's tough, but it's probably
[54:02] like one of my favorite third bosses
[54:03] ever. It was just a fun fight, man. I I
[54:05] had fun. It was a good fun fight.
[54:07] >> I think I think you're kind of cooking a
[54:09] little bit. Like the first time almost
[54:10] anyone killed this, you're like near the
[54:12] end of the room with like
[54:14] >> almost barely alive. There's like four
[54:16] people alive. You're [ __ ] taken down.
[54:18] >> The whole room is covered in 100 pulls
[54:21] less. It was good fun.
[54:23] >> Uh yeah. So that there's that also. I
[54:26] mean, I guess it just kind of looks
[54:26] cool. Also, the the main mechanic of the
[54:28] fight, the whole like do the things in a
[54:30] line was challenging, but if you failed
[54:33] it, it wasn't instantly over. It was
[54:35] like redeemable in some way. And I think
[54:37] that's really important for a third
[54:38] boss. It's also like pure single, so a
[54:41] lot of people get a lot out of that. I I
[54:43] I mean, we both had it a midfine boss. I
[54:47] don't think like Sikran's the best third
[54:48] boss ever, but what do you think, Draos?
[54:50] >> Yeah, I don't know. Again, I think it
[54:52] was like the difficulty is like a little
[54:53] too low, and that was part of the
[54:55] problem for the raids in general. Um,
[54:59] but yeah, it was fine. You know, fun. It
[55:01] could be it could be fun to do.
[55:03] >> Um, I mean, yeah. Is that it? Just W
[55:05] sick rain.
[55:06] >> Just W fight, man. Great fight.
[55:08] >> Moving on. Uh, I have Plexus Sentinel at
[55:11] eight and the highest I have a first
[55:13] boss.
[55:14] >> That is That is the third time we've
[55:16] listed it. Yes. I mean, we all have it
[55:17] decently high. I just think Plexus
[55:18] Sentinel is just one of the cooler first
[55:20] bosses they've ever made. Uh certainly I
[55:22] think a lot of people may not like it
[55:23] because it's just like more challenging
[55:25] than a lot of other first bosses. And I
[55:27] think for some people the expectation is
[55:28] like the first boss should be like
[55:29] pretty simple for me to go in and get my
[55:30] loot. And I do respect that. But I just
[55:33] think visually really cool. Also like
[55:35] the way we killed this was like [ __ ]
[55:37] wild. There's just like I we almost
[55:39] wiped on the first boss and that like
[55:41] meant something to me. Um I just think
[55:43] Plexus Sentinel is awesome. Cool fight.
[55:44] Cool fight.
[55:45] >> Yeah. I mean you guys really had the
[55:46] ideal kill of it, right? Can't get much
[55:48] better than that.
[55:49] >> Yeah. Well, it could. We could have just
[55:51] not had anyone die. That would have been
[55:52] better.
[55:53] >> Yeah, but that's not as exciting. It's
[55:54] the same thing with SR, man. You got to
[55:56] feel alive.
[55:57] >> Yep. I do think
[55:58] >> Yeah. No,
[55:59] >> I think it was objectively a pretty good
[56:01] first boss. Um I will say like it was a
[56:04] little bit of a slog, like for a first
[56:06] boss, and it still takes a long ass time
[56:09] during like even during rec. Like I I
[56:12] don't I just I kind of like first bosses
[56:14] where they go from like five minutes or
[56:17] six down to like three in farm rather
[56:20] than like
[56:21] >> 8 minutes down to six or whatever it is
[56:23] in this boss's case. So that's the only
[56:25] reason. I mean I have it pretty high as
[56:26] well, right? 10 10 pretty high.
[56:28] >> Yeah. Interestingly enough, this was my
[56:30] this was my highest rated first boss and
[56:32] I think both of you actually ranked Vexi
[56:36] as you
[56:36] >> Yeah, I have Vexi higher.
[56:37] >> Hey, no spoiler.
[56:38] >> Yeah, but like I mean Yeah. Like I I
[56:41] feel like that's respectable. Vexi has
[56:43] aura. Like Vexi is like a just
[56:46] thematically awesome. Uh okay. Uh can
[56:50] move on. Plex sentinel. Good first
[56:51] fight. Dratnos, you're number eight.
[56:54] >> Cauldron of Carnage.
[56:55] >> I have that higher.
[56:56] >> I have that higher as well. Uh Franc
[56:59] >> Mugsy at eight.
[57:00] >> I have that higher.
[57:01] >> I have that higher as well. Uh seven. I
[57:04] have onearmed bandit.
[57:05] >> I have that high.
[57:06] >> I had that lower.
[57:07] >> That [ __ ] shadow priest. All right.
[57:09] Uh,
[57:10] >> yeah. Sorry.
[57:10] >> Yeah, [laughter]
[57:11] me already.
[57:12] >> Yeah, Draos, what is your seven?
[57:14] >> Nexus Princess Kyza.
[57:16] >> I have that higher.
[57:17] >> Um, where's Okay.
[57:19] >> And Max already had that, right?
[57:20] >> Uh, I did. Yeah, I'm I'm uh trying to
[57:22] find it right now. My brain's not
[57:23] working. Okay, here we go. Um, Franc
[57:26] >> Vexi at seven.
[57:28] >> Okay,
[57:28] >> have that higher.
[57:29] >> Sweet. Me? My six is Cauldron of
[57:32] Carnage. Draos, you're uh
[57:35] >> uh I had that lower. Yeah,
[57:38] >> your next link. Yeah.
[57:40] >> Oh, yeah. Okay. My six is Nexus King
[57:42] Saladar.
[57:43] >> I have that.
[57:44] >> Okay. I also have that higher. Um,
[57:47] Franc, your six.
[57:49] >> My six is Cauldron.
[57:51] >> So, we have all three Cauldron. I mean,
[57:52] yeah, we all ranked it pretty high. I I
[57:55] randomly Someone linked me a tier list
[57:57] before this that they did with their
[57:58] guild. I don't know what guild is. to
[57:59] some random guild and they had Cauldron
[58:01] as in a tier of Yeah, I'd do 300 polls
[58:04] of this, which I by the way I think is
[58:07] just [ __ ] not true. Like anyone's
[58:09] doing Cauldron of Carnage for 300 polls,
[58:11] you're you're not having a good time.
[58:13] But
[58:13] >> you're rating it high because you didn't
[58:15] have to do 300 polls on it.
[58:16] >> Yeah, exactly. But I just thematically
[58:19] awesome. Also, just like using our merch
[58:22] as an example, we like I think our
[58:24] jersey for this tier was Cauldron of
[58:27] Carnage. It was the second boss and it
[58:30] obviously the boss doesn't matter, but
[58:32] it just had so much aura. Just it looked
[58:34] [ __ ] sick that it made up for it. And
[58:38] I think if you're going to do a second
[58:39] boss, there's some room for that. You
[58:40] know, it's like a like as far as the
[58:42] actual mechanics of Cauldron, it's not
[58:44] like amazing, right? It's just it's a
[58:46] boss. You you rotate between them.
[58:48] There's some non-moving stuff. There's
[58:50] some soaks. It's there's the kicking of
[58:52] the robots. It's super whatever. It just
[58:54] looks insane. I like that I could stand
[58:56] in the middle and dot both of them. It
[58:58] felt nice and unethical shadow moment
[59:00] >> and then I could dip over to the gorilla
[59:01] before the bomb spawned so I didn't bait
[59:03] it back. It was very nice.
[59:04] >> All right, W Cauldron. Uh my number five
[59:08] is Chrome King Galleywick which will be
[59:11] the highest that that is listed. I am
[59:14] not surprised that mine is higher than
[59:15] other people's. I am actually probably
[59:17] the single human on Earth that would
[59:20] rank Gywick higher than I think probably
[59:22] anyone else. And it's purely because the
[59:24] one redeeming quot This fight was not
[59:26] hard enough for an end boss in the race
[59:27] world first. But what it was was a fight
[59:31] that didn't have a dungeon journal and
[59:33] we were truly figuring out all of it in
[59:35] real time. And as the main strategy men,
[59:38] that was just really [ __ ] cool. And I
[59:40] wish every boss was like that. And that
[59:42] alone made this boss so much better.
[59:44] That being said, if I'm in like Ekko's
[59:46] position of also being in the world
[59:49] first race and you don't get to
[59:51] strategize this fight, you just walk up
[59:52] to it and are just doing it, it's just
[59:54] it's whatever, right? It's like super
[59:56] it's a huge letdown, but I don't know.
[59:58] Even though it was a little bit of a
[59:59] letown, it was also just really really
[60:01] fun to figure out. Uh so yeah, that's uh
[60:05] that's my that's my take on Gallowix. It
[60:07] also looked really cool. Uh Franc has it
[60:09] hella low. So what's your Gwix take?
[60:11] >> I don't know, man. It just does nothing.
[60:13] It's very It's very sad making it to the
[60:16] end of a raid to then have like a 50
[60:18] pull boss that just kind of does
[60:19] nothing. Like all all the prog is kind
[60:21] of like the first part of the phase and
[60:23] then nothing really happens and you just
[60:25] hope four people live and then that's
[60:27] it. That's the fight.
[60:28] >> What about P1 though?
[60:30] >> P1's got some pizzazz.
[60:31] >> It is exciting, but I think it's also
[60:33] cuz it's like it's end of the raid, man.
[60:35] I'm I'm trying to get I'm trying to get
[60:36] juiced up. I'm not trying to have the
[60:38] raid be over. is it doesn't make up for
[60:41] the fact that it's a complete like
[60:43] pushover. I think at least in my mind
[60:45] >> but I
[60:46] >> yeah there's just this experience that's
[60:48] missing that a hard boss has where it's
[60:50] like you're struggling to overcome a
[60:52] challenge. Gwix just never really did
[60:55] that like you did not have a challenge
[60:58] you were struggling to overcome
[61:00] >> that just died and you know it was like
[61:03] it was kind of a fun fight to execute
[61:04] for sure for a lot of people especially
[61:06] for the mages. I think they had a really
[61:08] good time, but like is not what an end
[61:09] boss should be in my opinion.
[61:12] >> Yeah. I hope uh I hope even though Gwix
[61:15] ended up not being ideal, I hope they do
[61:18] more no dungeon journal bosses in the
[61:21] future. I just think that's really sick.
[61:23] >> Yep. Means nothing to me at all. So go
[61:25] ahead.
[61:26] >> Yeah, do it for me. Do it for me and the
[61:28] race fans kind of. We're going to go
[61:30] dark. Cool. Uh so it's just definitely
[61:33] just for me. All right. Uh Dratnos,
[61:35] you're five. Uh, Mugsy, heads of
[61:37] security.
[61:38] >> Mugsy, I have Mugsy slightly higher. Uh,
[61:41] Franc,
[61:42] >> onearmed bandit at five.
[61:44] >> Onearmed bandit, and I believe that is
[61:47] >> Yeah,
[61:47] >> the highest. Yeah,
[61:48] >> that might be our biggest delta because
[61:49] you have it at five and I have it at 20.
[61:51] >> Uh,
[61:52] >> yeah.
[61:53] >> So far, so I mean, there's there's
[61:54] definitely Kyz is going to be the
[61:56] biggest one. Uh, but yeah, the
[61:58] >> Okay, onearmed Bandit. Uh, let's let's
[62:00] start with Franc or Franc.
[62:03] I mean, you kind of clocked me earlier.
[62:05] I was my guild's only shadow priest on
[62:07] this fight. I was like 30% ahead of
[62:09] everybody else. I didn't really have to
[62:10] do any mechanics or anything like that.
[62:12] And then like the ending of the fight is
[62:14] sick. Uh your your [ __ ] like moving
[62:16] around the room. You you have to go
[62:18] close to the chips to get a damage buff,
[62:20] which is really nice cuz it like it
[62:21] rewards like personal skill kind of like
[62:23] there there's all these things and it's
[62:25] it was just a fun fight. And I'm
[62:27] probably incredibly biased by the fact
[62:29] that my number was insanely big.
[62:31] >> Okay.
[62:33] Uh, Dratnos polar opposite.
[62:36] >> Yeah, I mean, Francon's just clearly
[62:37] been bribed by uh by details damage
[62:40] meter here. This is uh this is yet
[62:42] another prime example of why Blizzard
[62:43] needs to go further and not just remove
[62:45] details, but not make an in-game uh
[62:47] damage meter. That way, the the cloth
[62:49] will be lifted from his eyes and he will
[62:51] see how fun the fight was. Don't don't
[62:54] worry about six bunk junker.
[62:56] >> Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. No, I just We're
[62:58] the same, bro. We're the same.
[62:59] No, I'm better than you for under
[63:01] >> Yeah, sure, buddy. Sure, tank.
[63:03] >> Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, this fight was
[63:06] it like it was the difficulty was loaded
[63:09] into phase one rather than phase two. It
[63:12] had delightful damage stops. It had the
[63:15] excitement of getting alt shadow priests
[63:17] and alt affliction warlocks.
[63:19] >> Oh, yeah.
[63:19] >> To play. And, you know, they needed to
[63:22] It's It wasn't just one of those cases
[63:23] where it's like, oh,
[63:25] >> they just need to log in and place a a
[63:27] gateway, right? It was like, "Oh, they
[63:29] need to pump on their class because it's
[63:32] OP, but it's like it's only OP if they
[63:34] pump, right?" And like that I don't know
[63:37] it suck. Yeah, that that is I think the
[63:39] main thing that killed kill count for
[63:41] this for so many uh or pull count for so
[63:44] many guilds because I was looking at
[63:45] like why it's like okay if I went into
[63:47] Warcraft logs and I saw that a bunch of
[63:49] guilds had you know like one priest I'd
[63:54] be like okay I see why you took a 100
[63:57] plus pulls on this fight but every
[63:59] single guild in like the top 20 had like
[64:02] a bunch of shatter priests and warlocks
[64:03] and I'm like why is this boss why was
[64:05] this killed by world first guild so
[64:08] quickly and everyone else took so long
[64:10] and that that's that's not normal by the
[64:12] way. That's uh that that doesn't happen
[64:13] like actually ever. Like usually the
[64:15] pull count usually gets lower and lower,
[64:16] but this one was like real first guilds
[64:18] killed it and then even months later
[64:19] people were doubling the pull count. And
[64:21] it's because people were were playing
[64:23] for shadow priest. They were just people
[64:25] who don't play shadow priest and in a in
[64:27] a in a top guild you can swing you can
[64:30] have people that multiclass like that.
[64:31] You're just random guild even top 50
[64:33] guild doesn't have four shadow priest
[64:35] players most of the time, right? So like
[64:36] or four warlocks or whatever. So like
[64:38] you end up you end up running a uh
[64:40] optimal comp with suboptimal players
[64:42] playing things and that tanks your pull
[64:44] count on a boss like that more than
[64:46] anything. Also, if we're talking
[64:47] negatives, I have this pretty high, but
[64:49] I think this boss had really like
[64:53] underrated RNG. Like when you talk about
[64:55] bosses that have RNG, it's like more
[64:58] obvious, but just the the boss spawning
[65:00] the ads in the right order of like next
[65:02] to each other rather than on the other
[65:04] side of the room was such a massive
[65:05] deal. And uh also the for a boss that
[65:09] just had a red circle you had to dodge,
[65:11] it just feels like this one was harder
[65:13] to dodge than other bosses, like people
[65:14] were getting farmed by that.
[65:15] >> Rough, man.
[65:16] >> They're just getting hard farmed by the
[65:18] tornadoes. Um
[65:19] >> I would love to hear from BM hunters
[65:21] here. Did BM hunters like
[65:23] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I was about to say
[65:24] that. I was about to say that I'm sure
[65:25] this is one of the fights where like
[65:27] some classes have the biggest variance
[65:29] of enjoyment ever on this fight cuz
[65:30] there's just no way the BM hunter had
[65:32] foot. Like just
[65:33] >> I don't know. I think some people that
[65:35] are like super mechanic- minded are
[65:37] like, "Bro, I'm going to lock this [ __ ]
[65:38] down solo." I don't know.
[65:40] >> I mean, maybe. I guess it depends on on
[65:42] who you are, but it's definitely not the
[65:44] the same World of Warcraft we're
[65:45] playing, you know? We're playing two
[65:46] very different games.
[65:47] >> Yeah. Um there was another fight about
[65:50] this, D or this is also a a fight. We
[65:52] talked about this earlier with sticks
[65:54] where you can feel like you're a lot
[65:56] further than you are. I have yet to see
[65:58] a like pull chart of someone on this
[66:01] boss where they like progressed it
[66:03] pretty naturally and then killed it when
[66:04] they were supposed to. Almost every kill
[66:07] of this has some like one 2% wipe just
[66:11] like days before they kill it or like in
[66:15] the case of world first skill, it's like
[66:16] hours. It's just one of those fights
[66:18] where that happens and then you just are
[66:20] like, "Okay, time to kill it now." and
[66:21] then it'll just take you 40 pulls to get
[66:23] back into the last phase. It's just such
[66:25] a thing. Um,
[66:27] >> and that is really
[66:28] >> Maybe that's where my my bias is cuz I
[66:30] feel like we had a like pretty clean
[66:31] one. I just sent a picture of it in the
[66:33] chat. Like we
[66:34] >> Let's see.
[66:34] >> Our first low low pull was pull 92 and
[66:37] we killed it on pull 100. So it felt
[66:39] like
[66:39] >> a pretty natural curve for us. Um,
[66:42] >> you guys probably just got unlucky to
[66:45] not get a low pull on pull 60.
[66:47] >> Yeah. Got unlucky. really lucky on 100
[66:50] and our reclair was bad. I don't fully
[66:53] remember. I dodged I dodged rec clear. I
[66:54] dodged it.
[66:55] >> Dude, all I'm saying is you kill this in
[66:57] less pulls if your pull 60 right here
[67:00] was a 2% wipe instead of like a 10.
[67:02] >> I bet you would have pulled it longer.
[67:04] You would have killed it. It would have
[67:05] taken you longer to kill it purely due
[67:07] to tilting
[67:08] >> honestly. Like cuz that that's so so
[67:10] real.
[67:11] >> Boy, do I have some words on the next
[67:12] boss in that raid about that. Oh,
[67:14] >> okay. Yeah, I Yeah, most most pull also
[67:16] you guys killed it pretty fast. 100
[67:18] pulls, which is again double the race
[67:19] world first pull count, but people were
[67:21] pulling this boss hundreds of times.
[67:22] Like it was just straight farming people
[67:24] and it was so easy to wipe early, too,
[67:26] which is really easy to rack the pulls
[67:27] up. Plus, it's just an alltime tilter of
[67:29] an encounter. Uh, but I thought it had
[67:32] pizzazz. Also undertalked about cuz it's
[67:34] a trash area, and it's a trash area that
[67:36] also people skipped, but the casino area
[67:39] before you get to this boss is like one
[67:41] of the coolest.
[67:42] >> Yeah, that's one of the coolest things
[67:44] they've done in this game. Dude, I got
[67:45] to like explore that place because I was
[67:47] going back for the uh there's an
[67:49] achievement on that boss that gives
[67:51] decor. So, after raid last week, we uh
[67:53] we went to or the week before we went to
[67:55] go do that and oh my god, that area is
[67:58] so cool. It is extremely hype. Um okay,
[68:02] also is it never mind. Uh number four, I
[68:06] have Mugsy boss right after this, which
[68:09] we're going to talk about right now
[68:10] because you guys have it listed, I
[68:12] think, all pretty positively. Um I had
[68:14] it in uh five.
[68:16] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[68:17] >> I had it eight.
[68:18] >> Uh I don't I I have I have some Mugsy
[68:21] thought any Let's just have Fran Franco
[68:23] go first.
[68:24] >> Um I think Mie saw what should
[68:27] objectively be the worst raid night of
[68:28] my life. Uh my guild pulled a classic uh
[68:31] let's just raid Friday real quick. So uh
[68:34] so we can kill it. Um going to send once
[68:36] again a nice little graph of our
[68:38] percentages here on that Friday. Um we
[68:40] did a oh let's do like 3 hours, right?
[68:42] We did 3 hours. I had a deal with my
[68:44] mates. I was going to meet him at the
[68:45] bar. It was going to be great. We raided
[68:47] for 5 and a half hours and had a 0.25%
[68:50] wipe after our DK left who had the best
[68:52] execute damage at all. And it is one of
[68:55] my fondest WoW memories and always will
[68:56] be cuz that is an incredibly fun raid
[68:58] night. But man, what what a rough boss
[69:01] sometimes. Like the first two phases
[69:03] just became nothing. The last phase was
[69:05] kind of frustrating at times with like
[69:07] visual bugs and whatnot. Um but yeah, I
[69:09] overall really enjoyed my experience on
[69:11] this boss. Uh had a lot of fun with my
[69:13] guild doing it. Wish that the like
[69:16] soaking and and the specifically taking
[69:19] the last set of bombs where the like
[69:21] line was kind of [ __ ] up if I remember
[69:22] correctly wasn't as impactful as it
[69:24] ended up being. Um cuz it really felt
[69:26] like all the difficulty was loaded in
[69:28] the last 15% or so of the fight.
[69:30] >> Yeah, that's uh I think that's the only
[69:31] reason I maybe don't have it higher. uh
[69:34] is the difficulty in the last phase was
[69:36] so backloaded that you could get there
[69:38] pretty easily, but then it was just so
[69:40] nuclear hard that it took a lot of time
[69:41] to get there. And I think that's maybe
[69:43] that I could see an argument that that's
[69:44] like good boss design. But on that boss
[69:46] specifically, it felt just just the
[69:48] difficulty jump
[69:49] >> a little too much.
[69:50] >> Yeah, it was just so much harder. And
[69:51] and then also uh the bug in the last
[69:54] phase, which I believe
[69:56] >> still I don't think that ever got fixed
[69:59] somehow.
[69:59] >> It was active for us, too. And I think
[70:01] we were world 160 or something like that
[70:03] on it. So or 180 I think or something.
[70:06] Yeah. No, that that thing definitely
[70:08] suck.
[70:08] >> Yeah, it's uh Yeah, I mean that the fact
[70:11] that you had to like learn how to deal
[70:12] with a really annoying visual bug is
[70:14] just really shitty. Uh that that keeps
[70:16] it from being a little bit higher for
[70:18] me. I think the the like lore of this
[70:20] boss, like who it is, who the boss is,
[70:22] like the the two-headed ogre, one of
[70:24] them's wearing a [ __ ] tuxedo, the
[70:26] other one's like a brute. Like I just
[70:28] think that's cool as [ __ ] Uh, I also
[70:30] thought from a strategy standpoint that
[70:33] like jails and the way that they worked
[70:34] was really unique. I could see you
[70:36] playing a certain class and hating that,
[70:38] but like I just thought the way you
[70:40] actually planned that out was really
[70:42] cool. It's a really fun planning boss.
[70:43] We changed our strategy on how we were
[70:45] going to kill this so many times. It was
[70:47] a super epic kill. Like when you killed
[70:49] this, you were so happy. Like borderline
[70:51] end boss.
[70:52] >> Yeah.
[70:52] >> Uh, like feeling of actually killing
[70:55] this. Um, yeah. I don't know. Mugs is
[70:58] great. That's all I got.
[70:59] >> Yeah, 100%. It was This is one of one of
[71:01] those bosses that like my guild had a
[71:03] funny week or for as well. So, this one
[71:05] we had one where uh anytime either the
[71:08] boss or another player did a slashyell
[71:11] of any of the boss voice lines, it would
[71:12] like play it at full volume for you and
[71:14] make your character slashyell it too.
[71:17] So, it was uh this one like that's a
[71:19] vibe check that some of these bosses
[71:21] pass like this Rick Reverb, Dmensia
[71:23] Slater that were just like I don't know
[71:25] if your guilt makes a weak or it lands
[71:28] significantly higher on your rating.
[71:30] >> Yeah, I mean well it's you know how much
[71:32] is a cause and effect, right? Or is it
[71:34] like the
[71:34] >> you know the fights that are just have
[71:37] some element of of uh passing the vibe
[71:40] check to them, right?
[71:41] >> Yeah, that's fair.
[71:42] >> Um okay, let's uh keep moving. Uh, year
[71:46] four Dratnos.
[71:48] >> Uh, Vexi and the Gear Grinders.
[71:50] >> All right. This will be the highest for
[71:51] this. All right. You have a You have
[71:53] this very You have You chosen a list of
[71:55] the entire expansion of bosses to put
[71:57] Vexi in four. What What do you think,
[71:59] >> dude? Hell yeah. This is a It's a sweet
[72:01] first boss. It's It's fun. It's short.
[72:04] It gets shorter during farm nicely. It's
[72:07] uh It does not overstate its welcome. It
[72:10] kills your AFK people on the entrance
[72:13] animation, which never stopped being
[72:14] funny. True, true.
[72:16] >> Yeah. I don't What What more could you
[72:18] want from a boss,
[72:19] >> Frank?
[72:20] >> Yeah. I mean, that that's a pretty fair
[72:23] assessment of the boss. Um kind of
[72:24] annoying that you sometimes have to get
[72:26] into a bike. Not a fan of of not doing
[72:28] damn, but that was very minor. Um yeah,
[72:31] I mean, it was it was just a good boss.
[72:32] I have those.
[72:33] >> Oh, yeah. Had a damage amp as well, but
[72:35] you're right there. It did have that
[72:36] element of like
[72:37] >> the damage did
[72:39] no damage. The damage amp was I feel
[72:42] like you needed to come to a conclusion
[72:44] in your guild of like how long you were
[72:45] going to delay starting the thing cuz
[72:47] like you wanted if you were a dude
[72:48] >> somebody always had a different idea,
[72:49] dude.
[72:50] >> Yeah, that's true.
[72:50] >> The boots were ready and one guy took
[72:52] the bike hostage.
[72:52] >> Yeah, there were the people who wanted
[72:54] it to be like 1:30 and the people wanted
[72:55] to go at exactly 2 minutes or whatever
[72:58] and like Yeah. Lust the
[73:00] >> If you're going to lust the burn, you
[73:01] need to have CDs for it. And if you CD
[73:04] the pull as a two-minute class, you need
[73:06] it to be super delayed to really get a
[73:08] good burn
[73:09] >> and then like people would just send it
[73:10] early and you're like, "Okay, I guess I
[73:11] should have held
[73:12] >> and then it's I don't know. It's it's
[73:14] >> okay. But maybe is that good? Like maybe
[73:16] we don't reward the people who are
[73:17] trying too hard on the first boss. Send
[73:19] your cool downs when the the heart ones
[73:21] and then maybe you get rewarded and
[73:22] maybe you don't."
[73:23] >> Yeah, that's a good point actually. Like
[73:24] imagine actually caring about that. But
[73:26] people do that absolutely do.
[73:28] >> I know. I know. And we got to hunt them
[73:30] down.
[73:31] >> Uh okay. So yeah, Vexi Vexi. I mean, I
[73:34] had it a little lower, but not in any I
[73:36] I think Vexi is awesome. I did think
[73:37] Plex sent Sentinel was better. Um, but
[73:39] also I don't have the You guys are
[73:41] saying like I like a boss to get shorter
[73:43] in farm. So the thing about farm is I
[73:44] don't do it. So that's like completely
[73:47] >> That makes two of us, brother.
[73:48] >> Completely removed from my brain. Uh,
[73:52] Franc, what is your four?
[73:54] >> My four is Kyvesa.
[73:56] >> All right, we can talk about this. Uh,
[73:58] I'm just going to get mine out of the
[74:00] way. I understand Kyz as a absolutely
[74:01] banger uh of a of a fight. In its
[74:04] inception was really cool. If you were
[74:06] to just count the first 75% of
[74:08] progression we did on the 300 pulls of
[74:10] this boss, even up to 300 pulls, I would
[74:13] have called it an all-time absolute
[74:15] banger. Maybe it's my number one of the
[74:16] expansion. But the fact that we had to
[74:18] sit there and one tank this fight due to
[74:21] tuning, which was the least fun rating
[74:23] I've ever done, if anything happened,
[74:26] you were just not only could you just
[74:28] It'd be different if if someone died and
[74:30] you just waited to reset the boss and
[74:32] you just reset it instantly, but if
[74:34] someone died in the first minute and you
[74:36] lost that battle res, you had to wait
[74:38] until the first intermission was over to
[74:40] reset it because it wouldn't run in the
[74:43] intermission and it was actually slower
[74:44] to have everyone try to die in that
[74:46] phase. So, the amount of time wasting,
[74:49] I've just never been more frustrated. I
[74:51] had a crazy headache on this boss
[74:52] because I was so tilted from just the
[74:55] nature of what we were doing. And I
[74:57] don't know, that was it. It took a boss
[74:58] that would have been an all-time great
[74:59] for me into one that was one of the
[75:01] worst progression experiences I've ever
[75:02] had. But I do totally understand that's
[75:04] very unique to me. But this is my list,
[75:05] so that's where it is.
[75:06] >> I don't blame you at all. I don't blame
[75:08] you at all for that.
[75:09] >> Yeah. I also docked a bunch of like I I
[75:11] put this on seven and I think there were
[75:14] this boss like 90% of the work that went
[75:17] into it would have put it in like the
[75:18] top few spots but uh the difficulty and
[75:22] then leading to it needing to get
[75:23] nerfed. This is another one of those
[75:24] bosses where it's like we progged a
[75:26] version of the boss that then we did not
[75:28] get to kill, right? We we got to kill we
[75:30] got to roll up the next week and like
[75:32] fight the Disneyland version which
[75:34] obviously was still really hard. And
[75:35] there were a lot of guilds on both this
[75:37] boss and Forge Beeper that only ever
[75:38] fought the post nerf version and fought
[75:40] a really hard and fun fight. But like if
[75:42] you did a lot of Prague on the pre- nerf
[75:44] version, the nerfs that ended up needing
[75:45] to happen to these bosses were severe
[75:47] enough that you basically they basically
[75:49] robbed that experience of actually
[75:51] overcoming the challenge. Yeah.
[75:53] >> And getting the kill.
[75:54] >> Realistically, anytime you nerf a boss,
[75:57] the only people that are mad are you,
[75:59] right? Cuz like the people who have
[76:00] already killed the boss are like,
[76:01] "Easier clear." uh the people who have
[76:04] yet to get to the boss are like, "We
[76:06] probably needed that nerf." Right? And
[76:08] it's just the people that did that
[76:10] weren't able to quite kill it but
[76:12] progressed all of it. And then when you
[76:13] kill it, there's like this empty feeling
[76:15] like you're robbed of the screaming
[76:18] let's [ __ ] going like crazy [ __ ] of
[76:20] killing a hard boss and instead it's
[76:22] just like okay. And that's just such a
[76:24] let down. And Dratnos was just happened
[76:26] to be in that in that area. That
[76:27] happened a few times this expansion,
[76:28] right?
[76:29] >> It did. Yeah. Which I mean it's that is
[76:31] sort of the danger zone, right? is like
[76:32] if you're a little slower than the race
[76:33] world first guilds, you're going to
[76:35] you're going to catch the nerfs that but
[76:36] like they they ended up being some
[76:38] pretty heavy-handed nerfs this expansion
[76:40] it felt in particular.
[76:41] >> Yeah.
[76:42] >> Yeah. I don't know. This fight was great
[76:44] for us. We didn't have any big nerf
[76:46] issues. It was nice. It was good fun. It
[76:48] was a very difficult fight. It was a
[76:49] very punishing fight. I think I dock it
[76:52] uh the tiniest bit uh just due to the
[76:54] amount of damage some of those debuffs
[76:57] did, man. like needing a healer external
[76:59] if you take damage is not always the
[77:01] most fun at least in our world rank
[77:03] because like you got to get the macro
[77:04] and everything
[77:05] >> but like this fight was [ __ ] anyways
[77:08] it was a great fight
[77:09] >> I I think you actually brought up
[77:10] something that's very interesting there
[77:11] that I believe this is the like single
[77:14] you could call it a dot with like a big
[77:15] upfront hit and then a huge hit at the
[77:17] end but the when you got targeted by
[77:19] this boss's mechanic I don't know if
[77:21] there's ever been a dot that's hit
[77:22] harder in this game and it's on like six
[77:24] people at one time or some [ __ ] like
[77:25] it's it's [ __ ] nuts
[77:27] Uh,
[77:28] >> not a fun time to be a shadow priest,
[77:29] man. That's all that's all I'll say.
[77:31] >> I mean, I feel like
[77:32] >> especially if you got like two in a row
[77:33] or something like that cuz then you're
[77:34] out of juice, dude.
[77:35] >> I feel like every class in the game got
[77:36] [ __ ] nuked by that except for like
[77:38] evoker. Like evoker was the one class
[77:40] that just had obsidian scales anytime
[77:41] anything happened to them and they
[77:42] renewing blaze the dot damage and it was
[77:44] just nothing. Yeah, I don't know. But
[77:46] also the dagger dodging was like really
[77:48] hard. Um, okay. Yeah, Kyza, banger,
[77:51] except I hate it. Um, number three for
[77:54] me. So, we're getting into the top
[77:55] three. Interesting to see how much our
[77:57] top three differs. I have Nexus King in
[78:00] my my three spot here. Um, have you guys
[78:03] both ranked Nexus King?
[78:05] >> I have not.
[78:06] >> You have not, but I imagine it has to be
[78:08] soon. Uh, Dratnos, what's your three?
[78:10] >> My three is Sprocketmonger, Lockentock.
[78:15] >> You have it higher. Nice.
[78:16] >> Yeah. Wait, I had it. I must have had
[78:19] Okay, interesting. All right, Franc,
[78:21] what's your three?
[78:22] >> I have Nexus King at three.
[78:24] >> All right, Nexus King. So we can talk.
[78:26] We both ranked at three. I I I thought I
[78:28] was going to have this a lot higher than
[78:29] you guys cuz I think Nexus King is a
[78:31] fight where once you have it figured
[78:34] out, especially in the last phase, it
[78:37] kind of just feels like nothing's
[78:38] happening. Like you're just you're just
[78:40] like very slowly going through these
[78:41] things. But like the process of figuring
[78:43] out the right way to do planets in the
[78:46] last phase, which I I believe everyone
[78:48] does our strat for that. like the amount
[78:50] of time we spent figuring that out was
[78:52] just so rewarding to see it play out in
[78:54] real time. Uh it's just a huge trap
[78:57] offs. But then like a lot of I I
[78:58] expected you guys to rate it a lot lower
[79:00] because of that. Like cuz if you're not
[79:02] doing that and you're just you're go to
[79:04] these three markers, go to these three
[79:05] markers. It is just kind of like a
[79:06] really long phase that's really easy. Um
[79:09] the the visually really cool ad phase
[79:13] fine. Uh it's a damage amp fight that I
[79:16] think was like a little weird with how
[79:18] it lined up, right? Like if you use two
[79:20] minutes on the poll,
[79:21] >> not for me,
[79:22] >> you could use them at the beginning of
[79:23] P2 on twotarget and then you could have
[79:25] it for the burn, but you wouldn't be
[79:26] able to have it on the ad platform,
[79:27] right? So it was like,
[79:28] >> yeah, that's
[79:29] >> so I think minute and a halfs were
[79:30] actually
[79:31] >> Yeah, don't pot on pull. Don't do it.
[79:34] >> That is actually minus points for me.
[79:36] >> So also was like a it was this was the
[79:38] one of the first bosses where the minute
[79:40] and a half uh supremacy locked in,
[79:44] right? You had to like if you weren't a
[79:47] minute and a half class could minute and
[79:48] a half on the poll, minute and a half
[79:49] right at the end of P1 have your minute
[79:51] and a halfs for the ad platform which
[79:53] they carried it and then they had it in
[79:55] the burn and I feel like that was like
[79:57] just it was just superior to two
[79:59] minutes. You could only have a few two
[80:01] minutes get carried by the fact that
[80:02] your minute and a halfs were actually
[80:03] using on the platform. So like uh I just
[80:07] found that to be really interesting
[80:08] because like obviously that played out
[80:09] on Demensius. If you were a two-minute
[80:11] class on Demensius, you were just like
[80:12] were holding CD. It's like you just
[80:13] couldn't send on CD. Uh at least in
[80:15] progression. And I I think that was just
[80:18] a really interesting thing of Nexus
[80:20] King. Also, P1, how do you guys feel
[80:22] about P1? Is is P1 an all-time great
[80:24] phase for you or was it
[80:26] >> P1 was intense, man? It was intense. I
[80:29] feel like since I feel like it was even
[80:31] like more sudden than Tindril. Like you
[80:34] were [ __ ] in there and if you didn't
[80:36] use a personal immediately, you were
[80:37] dead like on the first mechanic of the
[80:38] fight. and that felt kind of sick. Um, I
[80:41] think the ghosts were a really funny way
[80:43] to figure out uh who in your guild is
[80:44] really stupid and can't turn their
[80:46] character and they needed a weak or that
[80:48] pointed at it. Um, I think P1 was
[80:51] fantastic actually. Like overall, it was
[80:53] just a a great time.
[80:54] >> Wait, did I I felt like it was a I
[80:57] noticed in when we were doing this fight
[80:59] that P1 and the Souls were a graphic
[81:02] setting problem, too. Um, I know that
[81:05] two things about
[81:06] >> two things are true. There was some
[81:07] graphic setting that I saw uh fired up
[81:09] wasn't using and I was watching VODs of
[81:11] other people like during wipes and like
[81:14] it looked way easier to see and then I
[81:17] looked at fired up and it was like okay
[81:19] change this whatever. Also inky black
[81:21] potion is something that's really
[81:22] underutilized. Inky black made the
[81:23] spirits way more obvious. Uh so that was
[81:26] something that we never were like you
[81:28] guys have to do this but honestly we
[81:29] probably should have. Um yeah super hard
[81:32] also never the same. you had to be
[81:35] willing and able to pivot based on the
[81:38] spawn order. The strat everyone ended up
[81:40] using uh was where there was basically
[81:44] only two options, right? It was either
[81:45] you're going to go first or you're going
[81:46] to go third, I think.
[81:47] >> Uh yeah, so like that that made it a
[81:49] little bit easier to understand, but
[81:50] like I don't know. I I think P1 I think
[81:52] you comparing it to Tendril is really
[81:54] interesting. They're obviously both
[81:55] second to last bosses, but Tindra was a
[81:57] fight where it just felt like you went 0
[81:58] to 100 instantly, and this fight also
[82:00] does that in a way that a lot of other
[82:01] fights don't. Yeah, I feel like it's the
[82:04] two only fights that I've played that uh
[82:06] I guess start that aggressively where
[82:08] it's like, okay, you got to you got to
[82:09] be fully like sit up and and for every
[82:11] pull like you can't slack one pole or
[82:13] you just immediately die. That's kind of
[82:15] cool.
[82:16] >> Um, one thing that takes something off
[82:18] of this is the first time you kill Nexus
[82:20] King, you know it's dead for like 30
[82:21] seconds.
[82:22] >> Uh, maybe for you, not for us. Like it's
[82:25] dead by damage, but you do have to aim
[82:26] the beam at the right turtle shell and
[82:29] >> Oh, that's hard. That's genuinely hard.
[82:30] >> Twice. Yeah, exactly. So, our kill timer
[82:33] lined up roughly or roughly with one of
[82:35] those, and that was kind of kind of
[82:37] intense. And we did have one wipe at
[82:39] like 2% due to somebody missing their
[82:41] their shot. Um, but yeah, it was it was
[82:44] good. We we prepared two different
[82:45] strats for this fight. One of which
[82:48] involved, oh, they're going to let us
[82:50] shoot the same planets over and over
[82:51] again. And the other one was you could
[82:53] never shoot the same planet twice. And
[82:55] that version of the boss, which they
[82:56] could have made, would have been I mean,
[82:58] it would have made P3 into just an
[83:00] absolutely nuts phase. It's like you
[83:02] would it would have been so hard. Um
[83:03] Okay.
[83:04] >> I also like the ad phase. Like I feel
[83:06] like it was a good one. It was It was
[83:07] kind of short. It was kind of intense.
[83:09] Like you have to play right. Yeah. I
[83:10] don't know. I like
[83:11] >> Yeah. Uh okay. Top two. What is my top
[83:16] two? My number two is Queen Answer.
[83:18] >> My number two is Queen Answer.
[83:21] >> Oh my god.
[83:23] >> Uh which means that you have Sprocket
[83:24] Monger as your number two.
[83:25] >> Sprocket monger number two. Yeah.
[83:27] >> I'm going to let you fight. I mean,
[83:29] actually, wait, both of you had the
[83:31] second and third. I'll let you cook.
[83:32] >> Well, that fight makes me feel a lot. I
[83:34] think there's a The movement was really
[83:36] interesting on the fight. Uh, there's a
[83:37] lot of ways to optimize. There's a
[83:39] slight bit of RNG that made it like
[83:41] which side you you got at the start kind
[83:44] of dictated how much you have to move,
[83:45] but I liked how that basically meant I
[83:48] had to learn two different fights. Um,
[83:51] which I thought was really cool. And
[83:52] then it's another fight where I just
[83:55] feel like I can't slack at all. like I
[83:57] kind of have to be on all the time and
[83:59] then the DPS check wasn't really that
[84:00] tight for us and I think that's the only
[84:02] thing keeping it from a number one spot
[84:03] almost for me. Yeah, it was a great
[84:06] time.
[84:06] >> Yeah, it's like they took the Silk and
[84:07] Court mechanic and they just made it uh
[84:10] >> fun to play and not immediately wipe the
[84:12] raid but kill me.
[84:13] >> Yeah. Uh okay, Dr. I'm assuming similar.
[84:18] >> Yeah, that was a it was a sick fight. I
[84:20] don't know. Answer was like, "Wait, are
[84:22] we talking about we're talking about
[84:23] Answer?"
[84:24] >> Sprocketer. Both these fights I think
[84:26] have very similar uh W's actually for me
[84:29] though, cuz I I'm I'm sitting here
[84:31] thinking about Sprocket and this is a
[84:33] fight where it was like the experience
[84:37] of Kyza and Forge Weaver in that like
[84:42] this was a boss that had to get nerfed
[84:44] into the ground like on the second week
[84:46] of the raid or whatever on mythic. And
[84:48] when I say into the ground, you and on
[84:49] the second week, obviously each of those
[84:51] fights was like a little different nerf
[84:52] timing, but this was the one of the
[84:54] three that my guild actually killed the
[84:57] hard version of, not the easy version
[84:59] of. So for me, like that I think the
[85:02] fights would probably all be about the
[85:04] same for me were it not for that. But
[85:05] like this one was it was so satisfying
[85:08] to actually get to kill the like week
[85:11] whatever week two version of Sprocket
[85:13] Monger um the same week you guys killed
[85:14] it. Not the same week Ekko killed it.
[85:15] They're they're of course much better
[85:17] were able to get it that very first
[85:18] week, but uh that was a that was a
[85:21] really satisfying experience on this
[85:22] one. Yeah,
[85:23] >> I'm just going to jump in right there.
[85:25] That that's part of the reason I have
[85:26] sprocket monger lore. Like I was
[85:27] thinking about why I like didn't think
[85:30] of it as positively in my brain and I'm
[85:31] pretty sure
[85:32] >> if our power doesn't go out and we kill
[85:34] sprocket first reset,
[85:36] >> I probably am like this boss [ __ ]
[85:38] owns. But part of my brain is like the
[85:40] fact that this kill was so antilimactic
[85:42] for us because like when we killed this
[85:44] we felt nothing cuz we're like okay like
[85:46] we should have killed this before and we
[85:48] felt like part of that was out of our
[85:49] hands. So like we I don't know just not
[85:52] not very positive thoughts about it.
[85:54] That is probably certainly a reason that
[85:55] it is down a few ranks from what it
[85:57] would have been. But I mean I I thought
[85:58] it was a great fight. Uh also just looks
[86:00] really cool. anytime you do the like
[86:02] siege crafter blackfy type like there's
[86:04] a bunch of like
[86:05] >> saw blades and rockets and all that [ __ ]
[86:07] especially with the raid you were in was
[86:09] like super thematic and was like I
[86:11] imagine like a race world first viewer
[86:13] just loved watching this fight for
[86:14] example and I think that adds points
[86:16] even when you were playing it. Um, the
[86:19] RNG on needing a weigor for this, I
[86:22] don't know if it needed a lot of
[86:23] maintenance. Like the weigora assigning
[86:25] people to certain spots and it was based
[86:28] on if you've been picked already or if
[86:29] you were the right color. I don't know
[86:31] if ranged necessarily like
[86:33] >> we never really had issues with that.
[86:34] Like I feel like that one always ended
[86:36] up coming down to like personal
[86:39] performance like you misunderstanding
[86:41] what you were supposed to do which I
[86:42] don't know is fine with me but I guess
[86:44] that could be different at a high level.
[86:45] >> Dude, someone in my chat said something
[86:47] very funny. They said if you would have
[86:48] killed it first week, it would have
[86:49] gotten nerfed faster and it would have
[86:50] ruined it for Dratos. [laughter]
[86:53] >> Actually, that actually might be true.
[86:55] >> It's possible. Yeah. I mean, we would we
[86:57] hadn't even started proging it, right?
[86:59] Like we we hadn't even uh cuz Sticks bug
[87:01] Junker was still alive for us at the end
[87:04] of the first week. So, it probably
[87:05] wouldn't have even ruined it that much
[87:06] for us.
[87:07] >> Yeah.
[87:07] >> Rumors are Poptart Kog paid off. Dingy
[87:10] to EMP. Look.
[87:11] >> Yeah. I mean, I was in the facility. I I
[87:13] was the agent.
[87:14] >> Yeah.
[87:14] >> True.
[87:15] >> Um Okay, we can kind of leave it there.
[87:17] That's I mean that I'm pretty sure
[87:18] Sprocketamonger is like the highest like
[87:21] fifth middle of the raid ass boss in a
[87:24] very long time actually. I'd have to
[87:26] like sit there and think compared to
[87:28] previous cuz also another thing that
[87:29] would have been nice on this. I didn't
[87:30] give him a ton of time to make this but
[87:32] like an average ranking for each boss
[87:33] which it looks like Queen Ansre is going
[87:35] to be the highest but Sprocketmonger I
[87:36] think is second. That's like pretty
[87:38] that's pretty insane. Um
[87:40] >> yeah I think you'd have to go back to
[87:41] like painmith right before there was a
[87:43] boss of that caliber. Oh, next
[87:46] waterfall.
[87:46] >> Uh, okay.
[87:49] We have or sorry, we have number one
[87:52] here. My number one. Only boss left is
[87:55] Demensius. Dratnos, you must also have
[87:57] Demensius. And Frank has Queen Anserek.
[88:01] Uh, we have number two.
[88:02] >> Uh, let's actually we'll we'll just
[88:04] start with Demensius and then we'll go
[88:05] to Queen Anerk after. Okay. So,
[88:07] Demensius. Uh, I'm I mean the boss
[88:11] [ __ ] owns last phase all time great.
[88:14] When you did it in progression, all your
[88:16] cooldowns lined up. You didn't have to
[88:17] do any damage stop stuff, which I don't
[88:19] know, but I think that might be part of
[88:20] Franc's bit. Uh, P1, this is how much
[88:24] this boss owns. We found out after
[88:27] progression that we just thought when
[88:29] people were dying in P1 of Demensius,
[88:31] they were just like, you know, there's
[88:33] four ads out that could all just pick
[88:34] one person and you would just die. We
[88:36] found out after progression that those
[88:38] ads were just bugged. They were just
[88:39] sometimes randomly shooting off like
[88:41] four damage events in 0.1 seconds and
[88:43] that is actually what was killing
[88:44] people.
[88:45] >> Um and it wasn't like like it wasn't it
[88:47] was like going on random people but
[88:49] enough of that events they were just
[88:50] literally bugged and they eventually
[88:51] fixed it. That would be enough to be
[88:54] like holy [ __ ] we wiped in P1 so much.
[88:55] Just the progression of this fight when
[88:57] you progress this fight you progress P1
[88:59] with lust and it was hard. You progress
[89:01] P2 first platform really hard. P2 second
[89:04] platform really hard with a caveat of we
[89:07] like almost one-shot it and it was
[89:09] because if you could just kill that guy
[89:10] fast enough you just our cool you know
[89:12] you didn't do the delay thing for cool
[89:14] downs or anything but like you could we
[89:16] was just kind of insane that that last
[89:17] winds didn't kill you like it just there
[89:19] was zero death floor if you killed the
[89:21] guy in time I think it's a good thing
[89:23] that that's the case by the way it was
[89:24] like already really really hard and then
[89:26] the last phase is just one of the
[89:28] hardest tank phases ever it's just
[89:31] positioning wise so insane There was a
[89:33] lot of constant strategy changing. The
[89:36] fact that even I hope I wonder if people
[89:37] still do this to this day where like you
[89:39] stand still and let the boss drag you
[89:41] and let it resolve as you're being
[89:43] dragged sometimes right next to a planet
[89:45] and if you move at all you just die for
[89:47] some reason even though that's not what
[89:48] it looks like. Like
[89:50] >> that I don't know like the fight was
[89:52] just like just crazy. And then on top of
[89:54] all that you finally progress P3. Now
[89:56] you have to go back and progress P1
[89:58] without lust which was probably the
[90:00] hardest part of the fight. I don't know
[90:01] that there's never been a fight like
[90:02] that ever. There's always a phase that's
[90:04] a gimme or a phase that's [ __ ] or
[90:07] something. None of it was [ __ ] It was
[90:08] all really fun progression. And on top
[90:10] of that, it is probably one of the
[90:12] coolest looking fights ever, if not the
[90:14] coolest looking fight ever. Um, that's
[90:17] it. That's all I got.
[90:20] >> Draos, you want to sque?
[90:21] >> Yeah, Draos. I mean, yeah,
[90:23] >> beast mode fight. Um, I want to shout
[90:26] out one underappreciated part of this
[90:28] fight as well is the uh the music of
[90:31] this fight goes crazy as well. If you're
[90:33] I don't know if people are playing with
[90:34] in-game music, but if you're not, you're
[90:36] missing out in the last phase. It's like
[90:39] the there's like a a choir that's just
[90:42] like singing in Latin or something about
[90:44] how how Pogers Demensius is or
[90:46] something. And yeah, it's great. And and
[90:49] another un before Franc demolishes the
[90:51] fight. Um the one other thing is we're
[90:55] about to go into a world of no weak
[90:57] oras. Well, kind of in the next
[90:59] expansion.
[90:59] >> Yeah.
[91:00] >> And
[91:01] >> for sure
[91:01] >> this fight outside of the P1 mechanic
[91:04] where you had the left middle front
[91:07] thing for the gravities, the rest of the
[91:10] fight is an example of what a fight
[91:12] could look like without weak warors. a a
[91:15] two expansions ago version of reverse
[91:17] gravity in P2 and P3 has an assignment
[91:20] and a map where you're supposed to
[91:22] stand, but it goes on a healer or ranged
[91:24] and a melee every time. And if you've
[91:26] made your raid comp correctly, basically
[91:28] everyone except for on average like one
[91:31] person is doing the exact same thing
[91:32] every time, which requires no weak aura,
[91:35] but is still very challenging, but in
[91:37] the way of you don't have a lot of time
[91:38] to do it rather than figuring out where
[91:40] the [ __ ] you're supposed to stand. That
[91:42] is really cool. That's an example of
[91:44] like you can remove weak ores and that
[91:46] fight's the same after P1 basically. Uh
[91:49] and I just think that was really
[91:50] impressive. All right, Fran, why does
[91:51] the fight suck?
[91:52] >> All right, first off, quick question. Do
[91:54] you think you have this above answer
[91:57] because the race was so much closer when
[91:59] you finished this? Like, do you think
[92:00] that impacts your decision-m at all? Cuz
[92:02] I feel like it would if I was in your
[92:04] shoes. I feel like dementias would be an
[92:06] alltime great cuz you know you you
[92:07] barely squeak by
[92:09] >> I mean not really like I mean what I
[92:10] care about is being better than our
[92:13] competition and in Queen Anerk there's
[92:15] like no way that anyone could say that
[92:18] they're better than us. We did so well
[92:21] on that fight that we just [ __ ]
[92:22] stomped everyone and Demensius I can't
[92:24] look at you with a straight face and say
[92:26] that we were just better than Ekko.
[92:27] That's just not true. And like even
[92:29] though it was like really exciting when
[92:30] we won,
[92:31] >> it's also like holy [ __ ] we almost
[92:34] didn't win. So like I I don't know
[92:36] >> play that through for content.
[92:38] >> Yeah. Yeah, maybe. I I don't know the
[92:40] But yeah, that's uh I to answer your
[92:42] question. Okay, I I'll let you continue
[92:44] owning it.
[92:45] >> Yeah. Time for the truth nuke. This
[92:47] fight post the first few weeks. So
[92:50] boring, man. So boring. Last phase was
[92:52] exciting. Rest was boring. Uh the first
[92:54] phase, you're looking at hands. You're
[92:56] kind of doing nothing. We only had to
[92:57] grab two people down, so we didn't have
[92:59] to be as locked in as you guys. We got
[93:00] the whole damage in about a minute worth
[93:02] of damage almost. Like it felt like you
[93:04] were just holding forever. Uh phase two,
[93:07] you're flying down, you're killing
[93:08] things, you're holding damage again.
[93:09] Nothing really happens again. Uh you fly
[93:12] to the second platform. This one's kind
[93:14] of tight. Like you have to damage a
[93:15] little, but you have to kill it at the
[93:17] right time again. You have to wait until
[93:18] the winds cuz healer cool downs,
[93:19] whatever. Whatever. you get to the last
[93:21] phase and much like you're giving it
[93:23] credit for being one of the hardest tank
[93:25] fights ever, um that can also really be
[93:27] a detriment if you have a tank who maybe
[93:30] shouldn't have that much responsibility
[93:32] and then you have 19 man basically
[93:34] relying on one player and that ended up
[93:38] being really frustrating to prog um and
[93:42] then something that like I feel like
[93:43] very few other bosses has such a crucial
[93:46] job that's as difficult for as long as
[93:48] what Dementia's had in the last phase.
[93:50] um for whatever tank you had running
[93:53] things. And uh that made it a really
[93:54] difficult fight for us to play and a
[93:56] really difficult fight to enjoy because
[93:57] I feel like I figured the fight out
[93:59] about a 100 polls before it died and
[94:01] then you just kind of sit there and wait
[94:03] for it to click, you know?
[94:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's
[94:05] >> frustating. No, that that that feeling
[94:07] of I think that's actually what makes
[94:10] people hate raid fights. Like it's
[94:11] really hard to hate a raid fight if you
[94:14] are the person that figures out how to
[94:16] kill it on the pull you kill it. If
[94:17] you're the person in your guild that's
[94:18] figured it out 50 pulls ago, those 50
[94:20] pulls are terrible because you're just
[94:22] like actually not stimulated in any way.
[94:24] You're just waiting for it to die. Uh,
[94:26] and you'd hope that, but that's like
[94:28] less the boss's fault and more like in a
[94:31] like lowkey it's like a guild fault.
[94:33] Now, a lot of guilds can't have that,
[94:34] but like finding good skill parody, but
[94:36] like like for example, you might have to
[94:38] you might have ranked this three things
[94:40] higher if you had a different tank. It
[94:41] sounds like not% like I think uh P1
[94:43] would still be an issue. Um, mostly just
[94:46] due to the fact that your damage really
[94:48] didn't matter in that entire phase at
[94:50] all to basically anything like the ads
[94:52] died long before they had to you had the
[94:55] whole damage on the boss anyways. So,
[94:57] you may as well not really care about
[94:58] that. Getting people down didn't really
[95:00] matter at all. So, it just ended up
[95:02] feeling like you were tapped out until
[95:03] the last phase where you were hoping
[95:05] that one player got his, you know, stuff
[95:08] together and and the boss could die.
[95:10] ended up being a very frustrating boss,
[95:12] which sucks because I really did like
[95:14] playing it when it was good and I liked
[95:16] progging it originally, which is why I
[95:17] have it as high as I have.
[95:18] >> I mean, I I don't As soon as you had it
[95:21] at 10, I I already knew it was the
[95:22] damage stop. That is that is genuinely
[95:25] annoying. Like, people like to play the
[95:27] game when you are when you at multiple
[95:30] times in a 10-minute fight for 20 to 30
[95:33] plus seconds, don't press anything and
[95:35] just run around. It's just simply not
[95:37] fun. That's not why you play this game.
[95:38] It's just not fun to do that. Uh that's
[95:41] why tanks hated necrotic. That's why
[95:43] healers hated overflowing. That's why
[95:45] melee hated uh was it spiteful or
[95:47] whatever where they just had to run away
[95:48] from the ads. Like like anytime the game
[95:51] forces you to not play your character,
[95:52] it sucks. And I wonder how they're going
[95:55] to go from that cuz like Demensius is
[95:57] just like one of those. It's just the
[95:59] first uh actually not the first. There's
[96:01] been a few in the last two raids, but
[96:03] for many years after Sanctum of
[96:05] Domination, they didn't make bosses that
[96:07] were phase based on the percentage of
[96:10] the boss's HP. They did that all the
[96:12] time in Sanctum Domination and before
[96:14] that. And what it Yeah. What it resulted
[96:17] in is people having to wait because
[96:19] that's just how that works. You need
[96:20] damage for and healing cool downs for
[96:21] the phase. And then for literally years,
[96:24] they did not make any fights like that
[96:25] for that exact reason because of the
[96:27] fallback. And then like they recently
[96:28] tried to dabble in it again. And kind of
[96:31] similar results.
[96:32] >> It's the same result every time, right?
[96:33] Like at least if the next phase is hard,
[96:35] you're just always going to wait for
[96:36] cool downs or try to
[96:38] >> Yeah,
[96:38] >> there's no reason not to, right? You
[96:40] just get punished for doing the boss
[96:42] efficiently, which always
[96:44] >> random random thought before we finish
[96:46] this off. What was the worst boss with
[96:48] damage stops?
[96:49] >> Keazad.
[96:50] >> Keasad is up there. Sylvanas.
[96:53] >> Wait, isn't it Zakul?
[96:54] >> Oh god, Zakul was so bad. But Zakula was
[96:56] like the fight even starts with it. But
[96:58] yeah. Yeah, that was also
[96:59] >> like you literally pull the boss and do
[97:01] nothing for a minute.
[97:02] >> Okay, maybe maybe I'm biased on to cool
[97:04] cuz I went downstairs and I got a lot of
[97:06] haste and that felt great. I feel like
[97:08] Sanctum was just the worst, man. That
[97:10] that's my least favorite right there.
[97:12] >> Yeah. Uh, okay. Fr's last pick has to be
[97:16] Queen Anak. You have it in
[97:18] >> uh Oh, I must have done the list wrong
[97:20] then cuz I have Lumathar right here.
[97:21] >> Oh, okay.
[97:22] >> No, no, it's Queen Answer. It's Queen
[97:24] Answer. That's
[97:25] >> Wait, where do you have Lumar? Oh, it's
[97:26] down there. Dude, I was actually
[97:27] looking. I knew it had to be Queen Aner,
[97:29] but I like was actually looking to see
[97:31] Lumar and forgot it was pink. Okay.
[97:33] >> Yeah, could be anything.
[97:34] >> All right, you can start it then.
[97:35] >> Uh, yeah. I mean, the fight was sick. I
[97:37] think P1 was pretty good. You did have
[97:39] to hold like a little bit of damage, but
[97:40] it was really nothing compared to what
[97:42] Dementia felt like, at least for us. Um,
[97:45] P2 was pretty fun and then P3 was just
[97:48] incredible. Like, I feel like P3 is one
[97:50] of the best P3s I've ever played. It's
[97:52] really fun. Sometimes ads spawned. I
[97:54] liked multi- dotting the ads and like
[97:57] where we killed it. The soft en rage of
[98:00] the next set of ads spawning and and
[98:02] like you kind of wanting to skip that
[98:04] ring completely or you're just hard dead
[98:06] was really fun. Um yeah, I mean overall
[98:08] I think it was just a really fun fight
[98:10] through and through. Also, your damage
[98:12] mattered all the time which is sick
[98:13] compared to Dementia's stinky B.
[98:15] >> I I thought P I thought P2 wasn't
[98:19] amazing. I don't know if it was bad, but
[98:22] I think P1 and P3 of this boss are like
[98:24] Alzheimer's. And also just like what it
[98:27] required from you in every phase like a
[98:28] bit different. Uh I thought the inter
[98:30] first intermission was good. I actually
[98:32] thought this was going to be pretty
[98:33] lowly ranked by a lot of people because
[98:34] it was just so hard. This boss was just
[98:36] like insane, insane, insane. I think
[98:40] Demensius was probably as hard as Anerk,
[98:42] but like I think Anerk was just like
[98:44] definitely harder than any boss that's
[98:45] ever existed when it came out. And I
[98:47] just anytime that's the case, people get
[98:49] better from it. But also, it's just you
[98:52] like I like I don't know. It's uh I just
[98:54] foresee that making people dislike it
[98:57] cuz like when you're on something that's
[98:58] really hard, they just don't like it,
[98:59] right? But it's uh but yeah, good.
[99:01] >> It depends on where you place the
[99:02] difficulty. Like at least for me cuz
[99:03] like yeah, this was where the difficulty
[99:05] was fun. I didn't have much fun when the
[99:07] difficulty was placed on, you know, one
[99:08] guy in the raid and you just hope he
[99:10] figures it out and then you pray.
[99:12] >> Yeah, I guess for me a lot of the reason
[99:13] that Demenius was so fun is cuz I was
[99:15] the tank. So, you know, last phase is
[99:18] like so sick for for me.
[99:21] >> Um, also like Brew Master in that phase
[99:23] as well. I was like transcending over
[99:25] these lines and it's it's rare that
[99:27] there's a mechanic that will kill you as
[99:29] a tank, but when you have that damage
[99:31] amp on you, the the line would um Yeah.
[99:34] I don't know. I I get it though. I get
[99:36] where you're coming from because I think
[99:37] a lot of my fights that I dislike are
[99:39] ones where I'm waiting for somebody to
[99:41] figure it out.
[99:42] Uh I I only ranked Demensius over Answer
[99:46] for one reason and I don't even know if
[99:48] this is even relevant because I'm like
[99:49] thinking to next expansion, but I gave
[99:51] Demensius points over Answer because it
[99:54] outside of the literal one mechanic in
[99:56] P1 which could have been changed in a
[99:58] 100 ways to not have this work. It just
[99:59] didn't require weak or in any way. It
[100:01] all could have been done by just looking
[100:02] at your screen and answer that was not
[100:04] true. There's like multiple mechanics
[100:06] that had like lists like in P2 counting
[100:08] down. you had like people assigned to
[100:10] like go to certain spots with the uh uh
[100:13] like the explosions and the frothing
[100:15] toxin or whatever in P1. Uh in P3 you
[100:19] had like specific spots you went uh with
[100:21] the thing that chained you to the
[100:23] ground. And I don't know that that that
[100:25] to me I think was uh enough to put
[100:28] Demensius ahead even though it's like
[100:30] when both of these bosses came out we
[100:32] were in the weak oras era of this game
[100:35] and that was all fair game, right? But I
[100:37] don't know. I just that one small thing
[100:39] put it ahead. Also, I think when we
[100:41] killed Queen Anerk, I've never quite had
[100:43] a feeling like that. When we killed
[100:44] Demensius, when we've killed almost
[100:46] every end boss, I knew that it could die
[100:47] on any pull. As much as we were telling,
[100:51] you know, the broadcast and interviews
[100:53] and even to each other, we can kill this
[100:56] boss. I don't know if anyone actually
[100:58] knew that to be true. like like the
[101:00] whole surprise from the viewing
[101:02] perspective of like oh my god they
[101:03] killed it after literally our casters
[101:06] and everyone is on Reddit saying when
[101:08] are they going to nerf this for like a
[101:10] day before we killed it. I don't really
[101:12] know if we knew we could kill it. And
[101:16] then I also don't know if we ever knew
[101:18] we could do as much damage as we did.
[101:20] Like that was just a pull that I don't
[101:22] think we've ever had anything like that
[101:24] where like we're steadily getting to the
[101:26] last phase and one pull we just like pop
[101:28] the [ __ ] off to where we're screaming
[101:30] that we've killed that boss like 3
[101:33] seconds like sorry like five or six
[101:35] seconds before it even casts the
[101:37] starting to wipe you mechanic like that.
[101:39] You don't do that you know. Uh I just
[101:42] don't really I still don't really know
[101:44] what happened on that pull. I guess we
[101:45] just like crazy high rolled or
[101:46] something, but like that that feeling in
[101:48] real time was just like so surreal. Like
[101:49] I just didn't like I think all of us
[101:51] were like, "Oh my god, we killed it." We
[101:52] were like, "Oh my god, we can kill it at
[101:53] the same time." Which is really rare,
[101:56] >> right? Yeah. Usually you have that, oh,
[101:58] it's killable and then like 10 pulls
[102:00] later you actually get the kill pull,
[102:01] right?
[102:02] >> Yeah, exactly. Like I I don't even like
[102:03] for example, if we wiped on that pole
[102:04] somehow and then had another pull for
[102:06] like an hour or two, I don't think we
[102:07] would have a pull like that. Like that
[102:09] it was very I I don't It was just crazy.
[102:12] >> Sometimes the stars alsign, man. But
[102:13] yeah, that fight's fantastic. I kind of
[102:15] agree that P2 is not the greatest P2
[102:18] ever, but I think it was not a bad phase
[102:20] ever. And I think P3 and P1 does like
[102:23] outweigh the the fillerness of P2.
[102:27] >> Okay, I do have a picture of the average
[102:30] and median of everything that we've
[102:32] ranked. But before I do that, I haven't
[102:35] asked you guys to do this, and I'm kind
[102:36] of putting you on the spot right now. If
[102:38] you had to rank the three raids, where
[102:41] would you rank them?
[102:42] >> Yo, Daddy, you go first. That's all you.
[102:45] >> I think ManForge Omega was the best and
[102:50] I think it has to be Liberation second.
[102:53] >> I mean,
[102:53] >> and then Yeah, it's weird because it's
[102:55] like how much do you rate because the
[102:57] the end bosses and the rest of the raid
[102:59] I have a pretty big disparity on like
[103:01] like the raids that I liked, the end
[103:02] bosses and the raids that I liked the
[103:03] middle bit of. I loved the middle bit of
[103:05] liberation, but the end bosses of the
[103:07] other two were both alltimes.
[103:08] >> One thing that I'm noticing is that we
[103:10] all have more bosses ranked at the top
[103:13] from Undermine.
[103:14] >> Yeah, but the the end boss is the lowest
[103:16] of of them.
[103:17] >> Yeah, exactly.
[103:18] >> That matters so much. Yeah, but like so
[103:20] basically Undermine was like a banger
[103:22] end boss away from being like the best
[103:24] rate ever or something like that.
[103:26] >> Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it had the
[103:27] the sticks problem as well. And, you
[103:29] know, it it had some some other bosses
[103:32] that were problems, but it had so much
[103:34] also like just the overall flavor of
[103:36] that raid was so good.
[103:38] >> Yeah,
[103:38] >> it did have a lot of swag. Yeah. Yeah. I
[103:40] would probably go man forge one and then
[103:42] um oh what was Narubar two and then uh
[103:47] >> and give me the goblins at
[103:48] >> mine's the same as Franc
[103:52] uh here is the uh thing so picture I can
[103:56] put it in a discord as well so this is
[103:59] the the average of like what the average
[104:01] rank was on the left and the right is
[104:03] the median so we have I mean that looks
[104:07] about right like looking at the bottom
[104:09] specifically Like that. That adds up.
[104:12] >> Yeah, that makes sense. You're really
[104:13] dragging Silken Cord up, though. That's
[104:14] great.
[104:15] >> Me?
[104:15] >> Yeah.
[104:16] >> Yeah.
[104:17] >> Uh Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did.
[104:19] >> All good.
[104:20] >> Cool. Yeah, this looks about right to
[104:21] me.
[104:21] >> Mario W.
[104:22] >> Dude, if anything, I kind of think the
[104:23] median is maybe like the perfect list.
[104:26] >> It is. Yeah.
[104:27] >> No, that one's got dimensions on.
[104:29] >> There's there's nothing. I mean, dude,
[104:30] Kyza is getting so owned by me. It's
[104:33] insane.
[104:34] >> Yeah.
[104:34] >> It's just like on both lists is just
[104:36] getting crazy owned.
[104:37] >> Well, no. the the median the how bad the
[104:40] lowest person has it doesn't affect the
[104:42] median.
[104:42] >> Yeah. Or I would have dragged dementious
[104:44] down.
[104:44] >> Oh, I see it with I understand math. Um
[104:48] yeah. All right. W
[104:51] >> Thank you. Thank you for your time,
[104:52] gentlemen.
[104:53] >> Thank you.
[104:54] >> Yep.
[104:54] >> Thank you for having us.
[104:55] >> Yep. Love you all. Bye. Destroyed. Okay.
[104:58] That was a nice little bit of content
[105:00] today.