---
title: 'Ranking Every The War Within Raid Boss w/ Dratnos & Fronk'
source: 'https://youtube.com/watch?v=mbK3Z31TtC4'
video_id: 'mbK3Z31TtC4'
date: 2026-06-16
duration_sec: 0
---

# Ranking Every The War Within Raid Boss w/ Dratnos & Fronk

> Source: [Ranking Every The War Within Raid Boss w/ Dratnos & Fronk](https://youtube.com/watch?v=mbK3Z31TtC4)

## Summary

Three WoW players from different guild skill levels—world-first, high-end, and mid-range—rank every boss from the War Within expansions three raids. They debate each bosses merits and flaws, highlighting differing experiences based on guild progression speed and nerf timing. Their collaborative tier list shows substantial disagreement, especially on bosses like Nexus-Princess Kyveza and Brood Twister Ovax.

### Key Points

- **Format Setup** [0:04] — Max, Dratnos, and Fronk explain they will each list bosses from worst to best, only discussing each boss once when it appears for the third time (or at its highest rank). They aim to capture different guild perspectives.
- **Ovax – The Most Hated Boss** [5:07] — Dratnos and Fronk both rank Brood Twister Ovax as the worst boss. They cite WeakAura reliance, a comp gate (frost DK required), 117+ pulls, and miserable reclears. Max (world-first) disagrees, noting his guild killed it pre‑nerf and he values a hard fight.
- **Fractalus – Nothing Encounter** [8:50] — Fronk calls Fractalus 'a complete nothing encounter'. The only mechanic is a safe spot moving twice, and the boss dies fast with the echo strat. Max agrees it’s worse than Ovax in terms of design.
- **Olgra – Time Sink** [12:00] — Fronk complains Olgra is a 9‑minute fight with a boring intermission and no skips on reclear. Dratnos notes it’s not a terrible first boss, but the length makes it painful.
- **Rashinon – Difficulty Spike Catalyst** [20:44] — Max defends Rashinon for its unique, chaotic pull. Dratnos counters that its extreme ease created a huge difficulty chasm into Ovax, directly causing the raid’s worst experience.
- **Stix Bunk Junker – RNG Hell** [28:07] — All three agree Stix has infuriating RNG: the ball target can lock healers or key DPS, pull-to-pull variance is huge, and it creates massive tilting swings in progression.
- **Soul Hunters – Guild-Specific Bias** [34:50] — Fronk hates Soul Hunters purely because a WeakAura update from his guildie caused 3 hours of reclear wipes. Dratnos likes it for sitting bad melee and good loot. Max praises the non‑binary council phase.
- **Silken Court – Divisive Design** [47:33] — Max ranks it high (unique rotation, CC, visuals). Dratnos and Fronk hate it: one‑dimensional, no RNG, you just repeat the exact same pull until people execute. They call it a boring 8‑minute slog.
- **One‑Armed Bandit – DPS Bias** [67:50] — Fronk (shadow priest) loves it because he pumps 30% ahead. Dratnos (tank) loathes it for the damage stops, alt class stacking, and frustrating P1 difficulty.
- **Cyclopean Demensius – End Boss Greatness** [77:50] — Max and Dratnos rank Demensius #1. They praise its incredible last phase (hardest tank phase ever), no WeakAura dependency (P2/P3), and the surreal world‑first kill. Fronk ranks it #10, hating the damage holds and the feeling of waiting for one tank to carry.
- **Queen Ansurek – Top End Boss** [84:00] — Fronk and Dratnos rank Ansurek #1. They highlight P1 and P3 as all‑time greats, with meaningful damage throughout. Fronk notes P2 is filler, but overall the fight is superior to Demensius because you never stop playing.

### Conclusion

Guild perspective massively shapes boss enjoyment: world‑first guilds value raw difficulty regardless of design flaws, while mid‑tier guilds resent RNG, weak aura dependencies, and nerfs that rob them of satisfying kills.

## Transcript

Yo yo.
>> Oh my god, you're so loud. Turning you
down.
>> Sorry. Uh so we're going to rank every
boss uh today in the expansion. I I
prepared my list and I asked you guys
not to watch it and I have no idea
what's on your list. Uh the reason we're
doing this is we're coming from a little
bit different perspective. So mine is
like the world first perspective, world
first race. uh Dratnos is just behind
that and I think that's a very
interesting perspective because a lot of
time like for example like think about
the difference between Dratnos' guild
which is very very highly ranked but
like on a boss like sticks or a boss
like uh forgew weaver I think those are
like brood twister right major things
were like even guilds way near the top
have like totally different experiences
um and then franc uh what was your world
rank again
>> uh I've kind of been teetering between
200 and 300 this expansion
>> yeah which is perfect that's exactly
what I wanted cuz I you you are killing
some bosses not not only after uh like a
couple weeks of gear, but you're killing
them, I believe, in almost all the
harder bosses cases, like when they're
nerfed. And I think that presents an
entirely different set of problems cuz
now like certain bosses are easier,
certain bosses are harder. Now you have
to hold damage and that's like really
shitty or whatever. So
>> [ __ ] love doing that, man.
>> Yeah. Uh if needs to be louder. Okay.
Increasing Funk's volume. Uh so we're
going to go just in order. Uh I have
like a little spreadsheet up right now.
Uh we'll just go me then Dratnos then
Franc. Uh we're going to list from the
bottom to the top and we are only going
to discuss each boss one time. So let's
just say for example I'm like I think
the worst boss in the expansion is
Demensius. We you guys would be like oh
okay I you one of you or both of you
would say I have that higher and then we
would just simply move on to Dragnos's
pick. And then once someone has a a
basically a boss has been listed for the
third time or is it it is at its highest
point, we will then like discuss how
good or shitty the boss is. And if
there's massive differences like I know
there will be on one of them. Each
person that has it either really high or
really low, two different extremes can
like explain explain their reasoning for
for that argument. Does everyone
understand?
>> Yeah.
>> W All right, I'm gonna go first. Um the
boss that I have the lowest rate in the
expansion. I did have to think about
this a little bit. Uh, but I ended up
landing on I have Fractalus as the as my
24. Does anyone have it higher?
>> I I have it higher.
>> I have it higher, too.
>> W. All right. Dryos, what is your 24?
>> Brood twister. Ovax.
>> Oh, okay. I have that higher.
>> Yeah. Uh, same as Ratnos. Could just go
next.
>> You You also have it. Wait, I I I'm
>> That boss is so [ __ ] bad.
>> Yeah, it's bad. I I Where do I have
that? I uh It's not too far away. So,
we'll have a chance to talk about it.
All right. I'm going to do my I'm going
to do my my 23. I have a Rick Reverb.
>> I have it higher.
>> I have that higher.
>> You have a tad higher. Okay. Uh Dratnos,
you're 23.
>> Olgra the Devourer.
>> I have that higher.
>> Oh, interesting. Yeah, I have that
higher as well.
>> Dude, I kind of feel like with this
format, it's like like usually use the
format of not talking about it until the
person who has it highest. But like
here, I think it's like there are some
like if you want to rant about a boss as
well, it's like also interesting. I
think we're going to be able to start
>> your
>> I think you're you're right, Draatnos.
However, we're going to start talking
about these bosses within the next like
two or three picks and I think it will
start being more fluid then. But because
of the nature of the list and how many
bosses there are, probably for the first
couple rounds, they're going to be
pretty slow. But I think we're going to
end up talking about a lot of them
later. Uh unless you have like a unless
you have like a way better way to do it.
It's just like the only issue is this
way you avoid talking about each boss
more than once.
>> It's just it's always really fun to
complain about the format. That's uh
>> that's something that you can do
regardless of the setting.
>> All right. W uh Frank, what is your uh
>> Yeah, my next one is Soul Hunters.
>> Oh, wow.
>> I have it higher.
>> Yeah, I have that. I definitely have
that higher. Uh, my third and okay, this
is I'm going to have to explain myself
later, but my my next or most hated
fight is actually Nexus Princess Kyza.
>> I definitely understand why I can't say
I'm surprised.
>> Yeah, I have it higher as well.
>> I'm sure you guys both have it higher.
Okay. Uh, Draatnos, your third or 22nd.
>> Uh, 22nd for me is Rashinon.
>> I have that higher.
>> I have that surprisingly a lot higher,
[laughter] but we'll get that in a
second. Okay, we're we're about to start
talking about a boss on my next pick, I
believe. So, uh, Franc, what's your 20?
Uh yeah 22.
>> 22nd is Fractalus.
>> Okay. And you still have that a little
bit higher, right, Dus?
>> Uh, yes, I have it much higher.
>> Wow. Okay. Okay. So, we're getting to
>> Yeah, we're getting to my 21st pick,
which is Brood Twister Ovenax, which
will be uh Now we can uh we can talk
about our dislike for so so explain your
all's perspective. Why Why is Ovenax the
worst boss of the expansion?
>> You want to go first right now,
>> dude? just like viscerally. It's the one
that I think is the most like misery
inducing boss to be pulling like both in
progression and reclar. Like this this
was the thing about it as well is like
the reclair sucked too cuz you just had
to if you were swapping anybody in and
out it was like a pain. It was
simultaneously a weak aura boss and also
not really like an interesting a super
interesting boss. Uh and then it also
had the like not getting nerfed for a
while being a hard boss after four
really easy bosses. So, a bunch of
people were stuck on it for ages. So,
yeah, many many sins, but also just like
I don't know, viscerally is the one that
I feel most negatively towards.
>> Uh, yeah, I mean roughly the same for
me. Um, we spent 117 polls here. Uh, I
believe probably 70 or 80 of those were
either weak or issues or big wigs not
being updated or a setting not being
enabled or whatever else. Um, the comp
was super restrictive. It felt like uh
we only had one frost EK and and that
clash just did 20% more damage than
everybody else. So that kind of sucked.
Yeah, there was just not really any
redeeming factors at all. Um best case
scenario, you didn't think at all. You
followed the weak aura and the boss
died.
>> Okay, I hear both of you. I I mean I
still have it really low. Also, one
thing that's funny about this list so
far is Draos [ __ ] hates that raid
Narabar Palace. Um, but I I uh Okay, I
feel like when I was comparing these, I
also thought Ovanax was like a huge weak
ora problem, but I felt like Fractalus
is just the worst version of it cuz
Fractalus was also giga weak or issues.
But when you actually look at the fights
after the weak or issues, I just thought
Ovenax was just like had more going for
it. As much as it's like kind of
annoying maybe like compwise, this is
why these lists are fun and different is
we don't have the comp issues, right?
Like we can run literally anything. So,
I don't really think about that. I just
think that like once everything actually
worked, this fight had a was just simply
better than Fractalus, which is also the
shitty weaker boss that had nothing
going for it afterwards. And I feel like
that was also the whole like this boss
is way too hard. The Ovenax, um, Forgew
Weaver, and Stixs all had the issue of
like all the really good guilds in the
world that weren't in the world first
race were just like what the [ __ ] do we
even do with our time right now? And
that's just something that never applied
to us cuz we killed those B. I think all
of them or most of them first. And like
that still felt really fulfilling at the
end, even if they weren't awesome or if
they were harder. Like to us, like we
just want to kill hard bosses, whether
that's the second to last boss in the
raid or the fourth boss. It's kind of
weird that they're making the bosses
really hard, but we're we're down for
that [ __ ] That's what we do this for.
So like that that part didn't matter as
much to me where I know that's like a
it's a they're all really maligned
bosses in the community because of that
fact. That just doesn't apply to me. So
like I think there's going to be a
couple bosses I have a little bit higher
than both of you because of that. But I
chat, would you guys agree? What would
be the the representatives that are
closest to you have voted Ovenax as the
worst of the expansion? Is that does
that fly? Is that like what you guys
would all be like, "Okay, yeah, I feel
that." Decent amount of yeses.
>> I get where you're coming from with the
uh the Fractalus being the like worst
fight objectively. I think the big
difference for me was Fractalus was a 15
to like 20 pull boss, so you're just
kind of in and out of there where Ovenax
was a you know 120 pull. That's a lot of
raid nights for a guild that raids like
twice a week. Uh, a lot of time spent
looking at a worm, being incredibly
frustrated at tech issues and week or
updates and whatever else. True. And I
think that's really what
>> Yeah, it literally impacts at least
>> it impacts weeks of your time. And if
something is a worse boss, but it's
something that
>> is is a problem for an hour, it just
can't matter to you as much. I I get
that.
>> Exactly.
>> Um, okay. Oh my god, RO just [ __ ]
flex so hard in chat. Fractal worse than
Ovenax, but then again, we rarely have
weak or issues, so I get it. Guess who?
Guess who makes the weak oras for that
guild? That's where
>> I want you to know. Relo the sole reason
Soul Hunters is 23 for me. He's the sole
reason. He pushed a really dodgy soul
hunters update at some point and my
guild spent 25 polls recaring.
>> Oh [ __ ]
>> Reload your [ __ ] name. I think I sent
him a uh an interesting gift in his DMs
at that.
>> Let's [ __ ] go. L reo. All right. Uh
moving on. Uh Dratnos, your 21st pick.
>> Fractal. I was pranking earlier when I
said I had much higher. Okay, that's
that's very Okay, so I mean we we kind
of just already talked about this a
little bit, but I I wonder I just feel
like Fractals is just a complete nothing
encounter. Even when everything works,
when everything works, what are you even
doing? Like the only redeeming quality
is that when you had the strat for it,
the echo strat, it just died really
fast. Like that's the only thing. And I
guess that I guess that matters because
like you're you know, you don't have to
spend a lot of time on the really shitty
thing. But I don't know. I just feel
like this was like one of the least
inspired bosses they've ever made. Yeah.
Um I think if I remember prog correctly
on this boss, uh the the only mechanic
is at some point the safe spot moves
over slightly to the right and that's
about it.
>> Yeah, it moves twice.
>> Can't really say it was a very inspiring
fight.
>> And that happens like like like four
minutes into the encounter. I mean, also
I think there's some amount of people
that just enjoy a nonoying bos like some
people just like to sit still and do
damage. And this is a boss where
>> it's a fine first boss. Fine first boss.
Not a great seventh boss or wherever it
was placed in the
>> Yeah, this this is in the like pro what
what did people call fractalist before
it came out? You're like, "Okay, I'm
reading through the dungeon journal. Oh,
this is them doing sludgefist, right?
You see a boss that's third to last.
That's pure single target." And that is
the prototypical Sludgefist build,
right? So you you compare it to things
that have been like that before and
there have been amazing ones and
fractals just falls short on on
everything to do with that. You have Oh,
that's so interesting that Drus's Olgs
below that. But we'll get to that when
we get
>> I kind of get
>> Yeah. We'll talk about when we get to
Olgraphs. Uh Fran yours.
>> What would you have? Uh 21 is stick
>> I have sticks.
>> Uh I also have Sticksire,
>> but I also I respect that there's a lot
of bosses near the bottom where they're
not going to be super controversial.
Well, I I have a controversial one.
You're the bottom, but uh Okay, Forge
Weaver. Uh or sorry, I'm just reading
Forge Wever's name. 20. 20 for me is
Olgra.
>> Okay, I have that high.
>> You have that higher. Dryos, what's
yours?
>> Uh mine is the onearmed bandit.
>> I have that significantly higher.
>> I also have that significantly high.
>> Uh yours, Frank.
>> Uh 20 silken core.
>> I get I should have saw that coming. I
have much higher.
>> Yeah, I have much higher as well. uh
[ __ ] elitist
>> 19 for me. And I'm actually lowkey
surprised that you guys don't have this
lower. I thought I had this high, but
mine is soulbinder uh for for this. Like
I I I don't know. There's literally
nothing happening here. Uh Dryos, what's
your 19?
>> Uh Silken Court.
>> You said you had it. Okay. You just keep
lying.
>> Let's [ __ ] go. Let's go. You're
keeping me on my toes, man. I'm
interested to hear when we get to it why
you guys dislike this one as much
because I understand why a lot of people
do, but I just feel like boss had some
sauce. Um,
>> my 19 is
>> Oh, we can talk about it.
>> Yep.
>> Uh, let's start with the person who has
it the least, Danos. What do you What do
you specifically hate about this boss?
It's like it's a first boss with like a
damage stop intermission where you have
to kill ads and like the best way to do
it is to all group up on the other side
of the room and just AFK and like I
don't know man. It's it's the worst
first boss I think in a in a long time
because of that. And and it doesn't even
like get that much faster during recar
because you don't skip anything. You
just still do the whole the whole phase.
>> Actually, that's a good point.
>> It's like closer to like Hellfire
Assault kind of. It's like
>> it is alarmingly close to that. Yeah.
Yeah.
>> Also really interesting, at least for my
guild, this was the boss we spent the
most in combat time progressing. Like
this was a 9 minute 40 encounter for us.
>> Oh, and every other Yeah. No, don't
worry. Not total. Don't worry. We're
bad, but not that bad. But yeah, it was
just the longest fight in the raid for
us.
>> It It is a I think there have been worse
first bosses in almost every other
expansion, but this expansion had
actually really good first bosses across
the board, and I think this one's just
worse than the other two. Uh, I don't
think there's anything like particularly
agreed. Like I don't think Olgra is like
a bottom three first boss of all time.
Uh, like on Mythic, it's definitely not
a turbo stinker, but it's just not it's
not amazing. Uh, Franc would have been a
fine fight if it was like 5 minutes. You
know, I think the fact that it's almost
10 minutes makes it really agree to
immediately
>> fight time is something they've really
keyed in on to the point where they
don't make end bosses that are like
longer than 10 minutes anymore, right?
Like a 10-minute fight is like too long
or the longest they should be. And the
fact that you're doing the most boring
fight in the raid for that long is is a
is a choice for sure. Um, Franc, when
you do B-roll of like I I expect like
probably like a little B-roll for like
each boss when we actually start
discussing it.
>> If you could find the method strat,
>> okay,
>> for this boss. Do you know what I mean
by that?
>> I don't.
>> Okay. It's a huge meme in our guild, but
basically method like we just did this
fight Natty. Ekko did it. Natty and
Method was the third guild to enter the
raid. And they like tried this I guess
like cheese strat in the intermission
where apparently the boss could never
like fly through or whatever. And they
just like all pixel stacked on this edge
and then it didn't work and they just
wiped to the boss and the boss just like
[ __ ] murdered them. And I just
thought it was one of the craziest
things to try to do. So if you could
find that that would be Scott will have
it.
>> It doesn't do anything. can stand in the
blue circle
right next to the portal on the little
>> triangle of the platform. The ads are
coming out. They're going to gather them
all up. That is genius. I don't know if
Well, I I didn't see any other kills
from any other guild, so I'm not sure if
THIS IS OH, NO.
>> OH, NO. This
>> Oh, that's so
>> for sure.
>> Beautiful. I'll hit up Scott.
>> Okay. Um Okay. The uh 18 for me is
Lumathar.
>> I have it higher.
>> Okay. I have it higher.
>> Sweet. Uh Dratnos, you're 18. Uh, is the
bloodbound horror?
>> I have it a lot higher.
>> I also have that higher.
>> Uh, Franc
>> Rick Reverb.
>> Rick Rick Reverb. Uh, Draatnos doesn't
have this on his board yet. I'm I'm very
interested to hear your cook about Rick
Reverb when we get there.
>> Yeah, but a decent bit higher.
>> Uh, okay. That means nothing because
every time you've said that so far, it's
been the next thing you said. Got
>> him guessing.
>> Yeah. Okay. Soul Hunters is uh my 17 and
I think
>> mine is uh Soulbinder Nazendry.
>> Okay. And
>> mine is Giwick.
>> Oh, interesting. I was expecting you to
have Giwick's higher. I'm actually
really interested to hear your take on
that. Um
>> in a bit we have uh my 16 which is
sticks bunk Junker.
>> Hi.
>> Cool. Dados.
>> Uh my 16 is Lumathar.
>> Sweet. Do we have three Lumars? Nope.
We're sitting on like two on,
>> but I'm coming on the third right now. I
also have Blumthar at 60.
>> Oh, sweet. Okay. Um, I have it the
lowest, so I guess I'll start. Okay, so
there there's a there's a few issues
with this. I I like the idea of it like
ramping in P1 of like the amount of
soaks and and they did a good job from
PTR. If anyone remembers watching this
on PTR doing it, this was like the most
punishing. Like basically if a beam went
into the boss, you just like died, which
is just the craziest technical like
second boss difficulty ever. Uh, I don't
know. You could like kill the spots with
a lot of people dead. The last phase
just like a run around the room in a
circle. This is near like the like
middleish of the list. So, I don't think
it's like super bad. Uh, but it just uh
just had had some issues and I think the
lust timing being like on the pole
rather than the damage amp feels kind of
weird just because like the first phase
was so much harder than the second
phase. What do you guys think, Lumathar?
You don't, by the way, if you're just
like it's a boss and you don't have any
a lot to say, that's totally fine.
coming at it from a perspective of like
a a guy who who casts too much and
doesn't have a lot of mobility. And I
don't know, I just felt like the fight
you had to be everywhere. You had to run
a lot. You had to burst down things. I
don't know. I just I didn't really ever
have fun during the fight. And it was a
massive step up in difficulty from
Plexel and Soul Binder before it. So, it
just wasn't a fun experience really.
>> Yeah. I think the boss had too much
health like for where it was in the
raid. It just I don't know. It's not
even that it was that hard after you had
a a little bit of gear, but like god, it
just took forever to kill. Even in even
in farms, it's still like a a long fight
even with a bunch of extra gear. And
then yeah, the difficulty of it, I don't
know. I mean, I don't think it was way
above where it needed to be in the raid,
but it's probably a little high. And I
agree, it's also just not like that fun
of a kind of difficulty. I I also think
there is one big issue with the fight
and that is the little circles that
spawn under I believe ranged characters
that lineup that happens as you're
killing the wall. Maybe this doesn't
happen anymore, but in progression, like
right when you were killing the second
wall, like basically everyone was
stacked up ready to leave. And if you
killed that thing a little bit too slow
or people were like a little bit too
spread, there was actually no safe spot
and you just got completely exploded.
And that just seemed like an
unintentional level of difficulty that
was like really annoying to deal with.
>> You had to like you had to have the
ranged bait before you started running
out.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Like I was trying to
convince my range to just like while
we're getting ready to kill the second
to last web or the last web, can you
please stand under the boss's hitbox so
all the melee don't have to worry about
this and every single time they're like
loosely spread and it's just a total
[ __ ] show.
>> Oh yeah. Also on our kill of this boss,
I died to a mechanic I couldn't see. So
I blame
>> No, I mean that's a W. That that that
deserves to go lower because of that.
>> All right. My uh my 15 is Sikran.
>> I have that significantly high.
>> Okay. My 15 is Sikran. Okay.
>> Okay. We're not talking about that for a
while. So, strap it. I got Forgew Weaver
at 15.
>> You have You have Sikran and like where?
Okay.
>> I got that. I got that [ __ ]
high, man. I like that.
>> All right. We have Forge Weaver Arz,
which is I believe the first time
anyone's put that on the list. Actually,
I was expecting some dobbies on Forge
Weaver. Like, like Dano, shouldn't you
hate Well, we'll talk about it when we
get there. Um,
>> yeah, I have it higher, but uh
>> not a huge amount higher.
>> Okay. Uh, Forge Weaver for me. 14.
>> Forge is your 14. Okay, I have it
higher.
>> What is yours?
>> Uh, my 14 is Rick Reverb.
>> Does that mean we can talk about it now
or
>> I think so. Yeah, I think both,
>> I believe. Oh, I copied it from another
That's interesting. I actually kind of
want Dratnos to start. Why do you have
this so high?
>> It's a funny boss.
>> It has the um It has the music and
stuff. One of my guildies had a week or
where like it'd play a song that you
downloaded into your MP3 and it was like
when when the boss dropped and Yeah. I
don't know. It was a vibe.
>> Yeah. Crazy.
>> Also, I liked that. I I I liked how
difficult it was that early in the Look,
man. Okay. Objectively, it's worse than
this, but like for me, it was really
funny watching guilds struggle against
this as a third boss. They're just
getting walled by the third boss on the
the first couple weeks on this thing. I
don't know.
>> Okay. I What do you think? Uh, well, my
guild did the we we we cheeded it on
Prague. Wait, what does that even mean?
>> Where we had an extra tank who ran
around and soaked all the debuffs on the
original prog so we didn't like very few
pulls relative to world rank. Um, which
has made re-claring really annoying cuz
they fixed that really fast.
>> Uh, but yeah, I don't know. This fight
was great as a shadow priest. Um,
hitting ads was fun, but everything else
about the fight sucked bad, which is why
I have it really low. I mean, I have
this super low for one reason and one
reason only was just RNG. Like, how the
ads spawned was just completely
ridiculous. Like, if you're going to
make you unable to kill an ad means that
you wipe, you need to have better spawn
logic. They spawn within 10 yards of the
boss. Like, they can spawn like across
the room and they could be stacked
versus not stacked. So, I was looking at
polls on like when we were figuring out
how to kill this where, you know, do we
bring in like a do we farm more gear
before doing this so we waste less time?
Uh, what classes do we bring in? Okay,
when we got like two spawns in the fight
to be relatively stacked to where we
could just AoE them down, our boss
damage went up by like by the end of the
fight, the boss was just like 6% lower.
That's such an insane swing on a check
like that just due to pure you could
have him on the wall, it doesn't matter.
just like pure RNG. Yeah, I thought and
and and this just I like symmetrical e
not easy but like a way for you to brain
out a symmetrical solution to a fight
and me figuring out Rick reverb was so
annoying because there was no way to do
things like in a line of two like that
one does solo at the beginning of every
phase mean you had to have like a like
some weird kind of setup and I just
always found it very frustrating that
there was no like perfect way to
strategize this just personally I just
found Rick reverb I just spent so many
hours in raid plan trying to come up
with some [ __ ] And every time I thought
it was great, the guild was like, "Yeah,
I don't like it." I'm like, "Okay,
fuck." Then I just went back and just
came up with just the most basic dog
[ __ ] kindergartener strat for this. And
that just ended up being the best thing
to do. Uh, and that I just hate fights
like that.
>> I forget. Were you guys uh like close to
enrage when you killed it?
>> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you would you
would you basically
>> frustrating for you guys?
>> For us, it didn't really matter, you
know like
>> Yeah, the first couple like
>> enrage kills. It was uh it was super
hard for it was in the raid.
>> Yeah. Yeah, it was funny. It was a good
prank by Blizzard.
>> Um, okay. Onwards. Francing.
>> Okay. Yeah, I had it lower. So,
>> you had it lower. I haven't listed it
yet. So,
>> okay. So, we will not talk.
>> We continue. Uh, we have my 13, which is
Vexi.
>> I have it high.
>> I have that high.
>> My 13 is Forge Weaver.
>> Uh, did we proc a talk? We did.
>> Right, Max? Oh, you did.
>> Yeah, we we both listed it already. Um,
okay. I mean, we all have we pretty much
agree here. We have Forgew Weaver within
a three ranking thing in the middle. So,
neither of us were were super offended
by this, but none of us thought it like
really really owned. And this is, I
believe, going to be very different
perspectives, right? Like we killed
Forge Weaver when it was crazy style
like 1 second beams and all that [ __ ]
Draatos was like I don't even know if
you decided to fight the boss that week
or if you waited. We we we got it to 5%
that week and then we didn't kill it.
>> Oh. And then you and then you like
pulled it the next week and it was just
a total [ __ ] joke.
>> Yeah, we one shot it the next week
basically. Like it was it was uh it it
was it was it felt like you remember
fighting Anduin pre- nerf and then
coming back like 3 months later and it's
like oh this boss is, you know, a
completely different thing. It felt like
all of that had happened in one reset
for that boss.
>> Yeah. And that was uh and then and then
Franca is killing it way later when it's
in its like non-offensive very easy
fourth boss thing. But I think it's
still if I remember Forge Weaver even
after all those nerfs still was a
challenge for a lot of guilds I think
because of just like
>> the CC chain.
>> It was mostly the CC chain. Yeah. Like
it it was a kind of frustrating boss to
wipe to cuz we didn't like it it didn't
feel like it was super outplayable by
most of the raid. It usually came down
to like two individuals and whether or
not they could knock the orbs into the
pools. And uh for reclers, we just
straight up ended up putting the balls
behind the pools not to deal with the CC
stuff. Realistically, we probably should
have done that during proc too cuz that
is just way more consistent.
>> That's my fault. We we were talking
about doing that in progression
>> and a few people were like, "We should
go behind and I'm like, well, if we go
in front, we're going to get like way
more damage on these." And it was such a
tight damage check that we coordinated.
But people missed their typhoons all the
time cuz like it was genuinely like a
really tight timing and really hard. And
on a fight where as guild skill level
and experience level goes down and
investment level, the thing that becomes
the hardest, this is why and was so hard
was assigning people to press a like
utility button at a very specific time
like a CC chain on anything. That is
like the hardest thing for guilds to do.
The the lower you go, it's just
something about it is just you have to
rely on someone. It's very binary. If
someone misses it, it's just [ __ ]
over. And that is just so challenging.
And I think no matter how much they
nerfed this boss, that still was really
really hard.
>> Yeah. And like realistically, we
completely blew the boss up um near the
end. Like we we got like 10 seconds in
the last phase. So we really didn't need
the boss damage. It was really just, you
know, doing what better guilds were
doing for no reason. Um and that kind of
[ __ ] my experience of the boss up.
>> Prime example of how raid leading a
guild at a lower level. the first guild
that decided, you know what, we don't
need the people are going to mess up the
typhoons more than we're going to miss
the damage on this stuff. Let's just put
them behind that. That is a perfect
example of like good strategizing and uh
stuff that now that something is
different than when the world first
killed killed it. Uh
>> dude, the crazy thing is we I as soon as
we started pulling that boss, I was
like, "Okay, we're probably not going to
kill this this week. Let's just put it
behind cuz that'll be easier and like
next week it'll probably be killable
that way." And then we were getting it
like deep enough there's like okay
actually we can make the DPS check if we
start putting it in front. So then we we
had to do the midweek swap over.
>> Oh how many wipes did you have to that?
It had to be just all the time.
>> Yeah. Uh well we actually we picked it
up pretty quick because we yeah we got
it to 5% so we we saw the whole fight.
We just like didn't have the damage at
the end the overall damage. Um but I
think we would have if we'd had a couple
more hours of frog. I don't know. It's
one It's one of many fights on this list
where it's like I have a lot of negative
feelings about the timing and severity
of nerfs for my experience, but I do
think the actual Forge Weaver fight that
did exist for that week was good enough
to save it. Like it basically I'm
ranking it above all these fights that I
think have no real redeeming
characteristics. And this one does,
right? Like that was actually really
sweet. Yeah, there is another and I
don't know if you'd consider this a
downside or an upside. I think it's a
downside. This boss had this super weird
thing where if you hit a certain
threshold before the last phase started,
the boss would AFK for like 8 seconds
doing this knockback cast and it just
made the last phase a total joke because
it just gave you infinite more time of
standing still. And I I I can't remember
a boss that had something like that.
That's just so I always thought it was
like a I thought it was a bug.
>> I think the jailer had this thing where
if you did something right uh it kind of
stopped doing mechanics for a bit as
well. I think that one was pretty
>> Oh yeah, if you did something right.
Yeah. Uh but it wasn't a bug though. It
was like
>> No, it was an accident. It was an
accident.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh
>> okay. Uh Franc
13.
>> Uh Soulbinder.
>> Soulbinder. I think we both had it
lower.
>> Okay. I I don't know how you guys have I
mean I guess we're like kind of close.
There's a big soup of bosses in the
middle of this where just a slight
opinion change can have something go a
few things higher. I the only thing I
could see as a positive review of
Soulbinder is when you're doing this
boss on farm, it's just like super
basic. There's a little AoE thing,
you're single targeting, very little
going on. And for an early boss, it's
like the assault of Zakali uh opinion
where it's like I don't know, it's just
kind of non-offensive. You just go in
there and kill it real quick and it's
all right. You get some loot from it.
Like maybe that's the soul binding
argument. But like the fact that the
boss never changes in any way. You just
you just do the same thing over and over
again and it's so basic. I just feel
like is it's so uninspired that it's
hard to rank it very high.
>> I mean the the only reason I have it
this high is because I don't really have
anything bad to say about it. Like
nothing really happens. You just kind of
there dies and then I go out and that's
it.
>> I mean I had it lower, but it's like I I
get it right. It's it doesn't do
anything bad. Like you're you have no
negative experiences while fighting Soul
Binder and his injury, right? Like you
walk up, you kill incredibly
forgettable.
>> That's kind of cool. Like I don't know.
That's that experience is much better
than like fighting an actively unfun
boss, which some of these were. Also,
their dungeon journal, they try really
hard to have the dungeon journal even in
a nonlinear raid like uh Giwick's raid
is probably the best example of this
where like you I think you technically
could have fought any of the first five
bosses first that they still list their
dungeon journal in the difficulty
intended difficulty order which means
that in a raid like this with very
little uh nonlinear stuff there the only
choice that existed was uh was whether
you killed Soulbinder or Lumathar first,
right? I think I guess you could have
technically gone to Fractalus or Soul
Hunters, but like Lumathar is the second
boss in the journal, meaning that they
intended Lumathar to be easier than
Soulbinder. That is just what that
means. And the fact that Soulbinder was
so much easier than Lumathar, or I guess
the way you could look at it is Lumathar
was so much more difficult than
Soulbinder. And I ranked both of those
bosses lower than I would have because
someone did something very wrong in the
fight. And and I know that doesn't
really matter to a lot of people like
whether which one's the second or third
boss. I just know that they intended
Soulbinder to be harder. So, what could
have went wrong for it to be that wrong?
>> Yeah. How was that fight supposed to be
hard? I don't know.
>> I don't know where they saw the
difficulty. Got to agree with
>> Dra. Okay. Um, cool. Soulbinder. Yeah.
Makes sense that also that Soulbinder
will be the least that we talk about any
fight cuz
>> Yeah.
>> What what what is even happening here?
Uh, okay. My 12 is rationan. Do you guys
both have that lower? I think you do.
>> I do have that lower. Yeah,
>> I had it lower. Yeah. I'm going to
defend it before Draos thrashes it. We
one-shot this boss, but it was
exhilarating. We didn't know what was
happening the whole time. We were like,
for the first time ever, you're just
like actually like rationan done any
other way runs away after like a
two-minute cycle. This boss like every
40 seconds is charging across the room.
And it was just what the [ __ ] is
happening? This is so different from
heroic. And I've never seen them do a
boss like that before. And I give it
points for just being unique and really
having a completely like unique boss
experience. Uh it was very easy. I think
you could also take points away from
rationan because I believe forgewaver
and sticks were both direct casualties
of rationan being the way it was. Uh but
I don't know. I I just thought rationan
was cooler than I expected to be. That's
coming from someone who saw the heroic
version of the boss or during testing
and we were ranking these bosses
pre-expansion and I said it feels like
rationale was made by AI which I should
not have said and as you might have
expected people who design bosses really
really really don't like it when you
imply that the boss they made was made
with with artificial intelligence. So
I'm just ranking it a little higher.
>> So you you gave us some pity points.
That was
>> Well, I maybe slightly, but also I I did
I did find it very entertaining. It was
very fun to do.
>> Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I don't know.
This fight was It's just a forgettable
fight. Like, you just kind of run up and
down. You get pulled. The boss dies.
Like, nothing nothing really happens.
And I'm playing a slow ass class. That
[ __ ] sucked. Just running slow, having
no fun. Yeah,
>> dude. I don't know. I think it was like
a little worse than than those because
you also set up this huge difficulty
chasm that were like not just the
problem of the next two raids they made
the fourth boss nuclear difficulty
because of this. I I don't think you can
really fairly blame Rashan for that cuz
that's like that's still their
decision-m but like the fact that brood
twister was such an awful experience
directly followed from how quickly you
got there which a huge part of that
problem was how easy rashon and to a
lesser extent sick and and stuff were as
well before it. So I think it it needs
to get some of the blame for that too. I
mean,
>> I'm not going to blame Rashanax on
ration, man. He did nothing.
It is a real thing. What Draos is saying
is better, but Oven axe is unredeemable.
That boss is the worst thing they've
ever made.
>> Okay, I I have a maybe a little bit
different way of looking at this. So, I
think forgewaver I think as long as you
make eight boss raids, it is extremely
likely that you are going to have a
rationan to brood twister jump. You're
going to have a Rick Reverb to sticks, a
whatever boss you killed into uh Forge
Weaver, like forge weaver sticks,
whatever that th those are. With only
eight bosses, it's really hard to get
from a first boss to what a last boss
is. And they're just simply there isn't
enough bosses for there not to be some
jagged spike in difficulty throughout.
So, I don't even know if I would blame
Rashin for Rovenax. I would almost blame
not having 10 boss raids on basically
all three of the raids in this expansion
having that issue.
>> Yeah, I think there there's definitely I
I am a big fan of going up to more
bosses as well. But I do think that when
the jump is from one pull to over a
hundred in one boss like that
>> that is a little bit more than
necessary.
>> Isn't that what happened in the other
two bosses too though? Is that identical
to Rick Reverb? I guess Rick reverb was
a little bit harder than
>> these are like is like you know seven to
to 100 which is still really bad but
like literally one to
>> how many people one shot Rashan.
>> I think we had four pulls.
>> We were the only guild in the top 10 to
do it. So I don't know how many.
>> But also the difficulty spike in at
least mana forge wasn't that bad for us.
Like Lumathar was a 31 pull boss. We did
33 on forgew weaver. We did 18 on
Fractalus and then
>> yeah, the difficulty was even for most
other guilds in on Rick Reverb as well,
right? Cuz like Reverb was uh was 30
pulls, 50 pulls for a lot of guilds.
>> Okay, so Lr Rinan and and just before we
move off of this, I'm very interested in
what difficulty curve spikes look like
in the expansion because it's just crazy
that this happened three raids in a row
and basically hasn't happened before
this expansion. Uh I Oh, Biff is saying
that method one shot ration. All right,
I made that up. L me. Um okay. Uh but I
want to see next expansion how that
works. And especially with the way
they're laying out these raids, right?
You're getting seven total bosses within
two raids right away and then you're
getting a two boss raid. But the last
boss of the first raid is supposed to be
as hard as the second to last boss. And
the last boss and the raid that's coming
out delayed is supposed to be the true
end boss. But then the one boss raid is
supposed to be the fourth boss. I I
could just see a lot of weird difficulty
curve swings. Let's just revisit this
after next raid. I could I could see
there being another rationand situation.
Not just because it's happened three
times in a row, but because just the way
the raids are laid out. Uh okay,
Dratnos, you're number 12.
>> Uh my number 12 was Sticks Bunk Junker.
>> Okay. Uh we both have that lower. All
right, Draos, what is your redeeming
qualities of Sticks? Yeah. I mean, you
driving around on the ball. That was
kind of fun. It was There's a lot of
He's a tank. He's a tank. He's a tank.
He's tank.
>> Were you Were you driving the ball every
time?
>> Yeah, man. I got to drive. I got a
different game, bro. I get
>> this. Sick. I mean, wouldn't that be the
best example of this? Like, like, if
you're going to take the ball as a
negative, wouldn't talking to someone
who did the ball literally multiple
times every
>> You see where the tank that did the ball
was on the damage meter, man, that was
not negative. Ros was on the top the
entire time.
>> Oh, true. Maybe that's it. driving
around vroom vroom. Get
>> I think the problem with the ball wasn't
necessarily driving it though.
>> Yeah. And and if you drove it one out of
every, you know, 12 casts or whatever
and so you got to do it once every
couple pulls. It was both not often
enough to be fun, but also when it did
happen, you weren't like super practiced
on it. So there was a good chance you'd
screw it up. So I think the tank version
of it was way more fun if you were, you
know, just always always on the ball.
>> Yeah. Now, the issue for me was also, at
least with the the way my class played,
like your cooldown timings could get
really [ __ ] by getting a ball. And the
chances of getting a ball were not
really big enough to play around it
every time. And it was like you had to
hold sometimes and then not hold. And
then
>> some poles you get ball three times,
some ps you get ball zero time. And
yeah, I don't know. The ball kind of
sucked.
>> I thought about having sticks way
higher. And the reason I went back on it
is I remembered how much RNG there was.
Uh yeah, like you had you were class
stacking daughters and stuff, but like
sometimes just all the all the the like
little uh crabs you had to kill with the
bombs. They just spawned on top of the
balls and
>> sometimes your daughters get ball man
and then everything lives.
>> Oh yeah, actually you have like sh So
like one set later in the fight was
heavily carried by shadow priest 2
minutes and we were just like every pull
just praying that they didn't get
picked. Healers could get picked, by the
way, which you were three healing this
fight. Meaning that every time balls
were coming out, there was one healer
with cooldowns that was carrying you
through the next little bit. And if they
got picked, it was just red alert, all
hellstones, all health pots, slam
everything, and you would still wipe.
And that I feel like that element of RNG
in an already really hard boss is just
poor boss design. Like that shouldn't
like healers just simply shouldn't have
gotten the ball. Pretty pretty uh
blading. even if they didn't, you could
still wipe to the DPS not getting it.
Um, and then also, this is a famous boss
that there's another boss later in the
raid uh that also had this issue where
you feel like you're you you should kill
the boss far before you actually do. Uh,
>> yeah,
>> it's like uh bosses that trick you into
thinking that you're farther than you
are. And they almost all have one thing
in common. The sticks ball is what it is
in this example where over the course of
30 minutes you can have a stretch where
basically the same people get picked
just by pure RNG and naturally you will
have really good pulls because
everyone's not only experienced with the
ball but they've done it recently and
then you're like getting a crazy low
pull. Okay, we wiped it 15%. And then
for the next 30 minutes, entirely new
people get it. And then before you can
even have a chance to have the good
people get it again, you're now
regressing because you're just upset
that you think you're playing bad
because you can't identify that. And
then and then now you're tilting for an
hour because you think you're you all
think that you're bad, right? And then
that that's a bosses like that are
infuriating and and you're not wrong in
thinking that because it's almost
impossible in real time to parse why
that's happening. Like imagine a raid
leader saying, "Oh guys, I know we're
all feeling down that we wiped, but
really on that pull, Draatnos and Frunk
got the ball and they haven't gotten it
all night and of course they were going
to [ __ ] it up, you know? It's like like
that's not No one wants to hear that,
right? You you you want to, you know?"
So So I I uh I think a lot of
>> started on like putting people in either
like you cannot bench people on that
fight during prog.
>> Oh my god.
>> You're missing a guy. Good luck, bro.
Good luck. New guy, good luck. Yeah,
that's that is uh also just I don't know
if this is a 21st man thing, but like
seeing some people in your guild get the
ball and even after countless VOD review
and they've gotten the ball enough
seeing them, this is just one of those
mechanics where some people are just
simply not going to get it. Like you you
have a priority system. You run over
this thing first. If you have the the
hyenas in your way, they're a priority.
And just seeing people like 80 pulls
into this in the the best guild in the
world or so they say. Just running into
the medium over and over again because
you're not big enough to actually soak
it and just not changing that and being
like this is [ __ ] Something's bugged.
It's just insane. Like it's just [ __ ]
insane.
>> Uh I don't know. Very very frustrating.
>> All right. You guys uh done with
>> Yeah. Yeah. We can move on.
>> Tank opinion. Tanks top of the meters.
>> I'm I'm convinced I should have probably
had it a little lower than this. the
>> well I mean that's I don't even think
that's I don't even think that's well
okay a lot of stuff in the middle I
could probably argue should be a little
bit up or a little low because there's
just a lot of bosses to rank but I do
like that this is all our own individual
thing this is why it's better in a tier
list you don't have to agree yeah you
don't have to agree you can have
different perspectives there there's a
reason why
>> yourself on the top of the meters and
you put it up there man I get
>> W uh okay uh you're 12
>> uh plexus
>> uh is that the first boss of Oh I have
this I have this higher
>> manor mega Yeah, I have an iron.
>> Yeah, this is a banger. Uh, and also
another thing about randomly rating
these is like really how do you rate
like a mid end boss versus like a really
good second boss?
>> Like what what are you doing? You're
you're you're just [ __ ] making it up.
Like they're like it's it's really
really hard to do that. Uh, okay. My 11
is bloodbound horror.
>> Mine is the soul hunters.
>> Oh, wait. Did No, no. Francine is also
at 11.
>> Oh, yours is also at 11. And then Draos,
what was yours?
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, Soul Hunters.
>> Soul Hunters. Do we have three Soul
Hunters now?
>> Mine's Mine's the way down there. So,
yeah.
>> Uh, okay. Yeah. So, we have
>> If you've played it, yeah,
>> let's do uh let's do Soul Hunters first.
I'll just delete that thing for now. Uh,
okay. Uh, Francos
has it almost top 10. So, let's let's
start with Frock. Frank, what do you
hate about this fight?
>> That's all Reo's fault. We were having a
nice recar. We're doing our thing. said,
"Hey, let's do Soul Hunters. They got
nice boots." Relo, that German bastard,
decides to push a weak or update at some
point that like changed the way they
assigned people to things or like healer
dispels or something like that. And we
proceeded to spend the next 3 hours on
Soul Hunter. For that sole reason, Soul
Hunters is one of the lowest bosses for
me. It was the least fun I've ever had
rating. Um, it was it was a miserable
experience. The boss was just it's so
random. So much [ __ ] happens.
Nothing is fun. Everything's bad.
Everything is evil.
>> I mean, I can't even complain because my
my rationale on Kyza, which I'm sure
both of you will be way higher, is like
almost exactly the same thing as you,
where like we had a very niche issue
with the fight that just made me
absolutely hate it. So, I certainly
cannot dock you uh hating Soul Hunters.
Dragnos, you have it relatively high. I
think yours being 11 and mine being 17
is probably enough actually to
differentiate. So, like what what about
Soul Hunters makes it feel like it's a
pretty good fight? Yeah, I I thought it
was a fun fight. You know, like your uh
your fifth healer gets to play for a
bit. That's cool. You know, you like
that you're like your fifth healer. It's
nice that they get the chance to to play
some World of Warcraft every once in a
while. Um I don't know, you're kind of
moving the boss around the room and you
get to sit all your useless melee
players that you don't like. So, that's
also nice, right? Like you got you got
some of the people you like in the raid,
some of the people you don't like on the
bench. Um yeah, I don't know. The fight
dies during the enrage in a kind of fun
way for at least for me it did, right?
where it's like you kill one of them and
then it's sort of starting to do its
pulse damage and it dies. Has really
good loot as well, so it's an exciting
boss to kill just cuz like what am I
going to get the boots this week? No,
I'm not. But I could I could think maybe
I will, right? It's like playing the
lottery. Okay. I I think I have two
reasons that put it in between where
both of you had it. So, so number one,
uh I think leading up to the raid, the
amount of like conversation points
around like, oh my god, they made an
optional boss that has like this crazy
[ __ ] loot and how that progressed
into just being it's just a regular boss
in a raid.
>> I just felt like I wasted my [ __ ]
time. That's all. I don't know whose
fault that is, but that happened. And
then uh Okay, so you guys are mentioning
uh you know like people in your raid
like we issues. Weores were like kind of
a thing here. I thought it was like kind
of fun to strategize. I I thought the
way you killed it was really cool. I'm a
big fan in council bosses of not having
them all die at the same time. I think
having a non-binary punishment when they
die, meaning that like it's not pass
fail, if you do something wrong, you're
inst it's instantly over. Having a like
one council guy dies and then it starts
ramping raid damage and then the same
thing when the second one dies. I think
that's so interesting as far as how you
end up killing the fight. And it's so
much more fun to figure out than just,
okay, just make sure they all die at the
same time. like figuring out which
mechanics you want to have stop first
and then how long can you heal through
the ramping damage is really really fun.
I would have had it where Dratnos had it
for one but for one uh two reasons
really. One was the one I already
mentioned the uh the like talking points
before the raid about the optional boss
for no reason but also because of
[ __ ] warlocks. So we would have
killed this boss like five or six pulls
minimum before this point. But our
warlocks kept gaslighting us into not
hitting the tank guy and instead hitting
one of the lower health ones just so we
could get it within execute range so
they could gain some mobility. Uh
>> the queen score gambit.
>> Yeah. They were like just [ __ ] burn
the the small guys, but then what would
happen is they would just keep dying too
fast even if we were all off of them
after we got them into execute range.
And then they would just die and it
would just wipe us. And then we were
like, you know what we're going to do,
Warlocks? We're not going to do that at
all. We're just going to hit the one
with the most HP because that's the one
we want to have die first anyway and
then we're gonna win and then we
one-shot it. So So I just I it just uh
Warlock's wasting my time type [ __ ]
Only reason.
>> Yeah, I'm not going to lie. I've been
convinced to to move it up a spot solely
because Draos mentioned that there were
almost no melee. Something I had almost
completely forgot about this encounter.
>> Would you like to do that? Yeah. Can you
can you move fractals down one for me
and soul hunters up one? Yeah.
>> Um
>> yeah, [ __ ] you. Relo.
>> Wow. Wow.
>> No, check the screenshot I posted uh in
the chat by the way after our raid.
>> These are Re's weak or a fixes after
their raid on this day. Soul hunters
dispel weak or a fix. Actual soul
hunters fix now. Soul hunters dispel
weak or fix some minor dimensions
changes. So it happened over the course
of three and then franc also after that
posted a a like nuclear explosion gift
which I I'm going to say if you guys
ever want to post this uh just be
careful. Do not be sponsored by
>> Yeah. Yeah. Don't Don't post this gift
in the wrong situations is all I'll say.
Uh okay.
>> I want you to know that GIF is also in
Rio's DMs from that read.
>> Beautiful. All right. Um, okay. Wow. If
no one actually followed that whole
Honda stuff, they're just so confused
over what the [ __ ] I'm talking about.
But all good. Uh, Franc number 11.
>> Blood Hound
>> Blood Bloodbound horror. And that is uh
Oh, yeah. You already told me that. That
is the I believe the last we have it.
>> Yeah, cuz I had it in 18.
>> Yeah, you had it a little lower. I just
think Bloodbound is a [ __ ] banger
second boss. I I don't know how much
higher you can put a like second boss, I
guess. Except I do have a second boss
higher as well as I think both of you
do. Uh but I don't know. It just it
owns, right? You like rotate in a
circle, you AoE some ads when you're
downstairs, I guess like if you're a
DPS, you kind of want to go down. I I
forget if it's first or second because
if you like use your stuff on the pole,
it's kind of like
>> it [snorts] depends on how much you
cleave and whatnot. I think for me it
was technically best to go down second
because it also lined up better with
your second set of cool downs or
something like that.
>> Yeah, exactly. But like if you killed it
after the third set of ads, you'd want
to go down first and third and hold and
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I don't know.
>> I don't know. It was fun. Nothing too
major happened. Boss died pretty fast.
>> If every boss If every second boss in
WoW's history was bloodbound horror in
just a slightly different way, we'd be
chilling there. At least in terms of
quality. Big fan.
>> Yeah. I don't really know why I have it
that low. That that was pretty
unfortunate because I I think you guys
[laughter] I can't I can't find
something to complain about about it. So
rather [clears throat] than make
something stupid up, I Yeah, good deal.
>> That happened.
>> Yeah, Reptar really agreed with that. I
don't think you heard it in Discord, but
he started yelling.
>> I heard like a tiny bit. It got like
caught by the noise fresh or whatever.
>> Yeah. Um Yeah. Okay, that's it.
Bloodbound horror. Good fight. Um my 10.
We're getting into the bangers. So,
let's start it off with a huge banger.
Silken Court. Uh,
>> all right. Let's talk about it. I need
to know why this said 10 immediately.
>> I mean, dude, it's just cool. It had The
only issue with Silken Court was it was
over nerfed, right? It was right after
the Kyza one tank thing. So, they like
nerfed this fight because of all the one
tank stuff. You could one tank Silken
Court. So, they like just nerfed the
[ __ ] out of the fight. So, you brought a
second tank even though it never needed
to be nerfed with two tanks. Because
like if the damage tech was harder, I
think it would have been more
interesting. I don't I just don't
understand why a lot of people don't
like this fight. Like it was pretty cool
to strategize. And I understand that's
not something that everyone would do on
this, but like the way you actually
rotated and why was just really cool.
The way you had to like do CC, uh having
people go under for dispels, I just feel
like it all it it and and I give them
major points for being unique. There's
never been a fight like Silken Court.
And and since then they've done the
silken court bit just in slightly less
punishing ways. Um but I don't know like
like also visually like the boss like
charges across the room into some webs.
Damage amps are kind of cool. You can
get like two target damage amps. Your
boss positioning really mattered. I
don't know like why do why do you guys
hate it?
>> You want to go first?
>> Yeah. I mean, I think that it did have
those merits, but when you weren't
trailblazing this boss, it was very very
like you will do exactly what the guild
before you did. And like the there's
very little room for creativity or
anything here. It was mostly a fight
about just like understanding why they
did exactly what they did. And there are
some fights where it's like, "Hey, huh,
I'm going to do something different than
them, like cuz I think this is going to
be better for us." And then this was a
fight where if you ever did that, you
would learn the hard way why they why
you guys did something, right? It's
like, "Oh, [ __ ] I
>> I we lost a bunch of pulls because I
tried to do something cute here, right?"
And like this does not actually work. I
need to do exactly what Liquid did or
else I'm I'm uh I'm wiping. And
>> I don't know that to me that puts a a
ceiling on how high a boss can go.
>> The fight felt incredibly like
one-dimensional. It's like either you do
exactly what the robot says or you wipe.
And there was no real in between and
there was no real like extra difficult.
Like the difficulty didn't feel good at
all. At least when we did it, it was
just wait for people to listen to the
the video, you know, wait for people to
move exactly how they're supposed to
move and that's about it. There's no
like try to do more damage. There's no
like anything. It really just had very
few redeeming qualities, at least to me.
>> It was one of those bosses as well where
like you do the same thing pull after
pull.
>> Oh yeah. It was not a short fight. very
little of it is something where it's
like, "Oh, this pull I got targeted by
this." Like, "Oh, this pull this
happened to me." Like, "I I need to
learn how to deal with this." It's like,
"No, if you you've done the fight once
properly, like you you can press
basically those same keyboard inputs
every time."
>> Yeah. Okay. But let me let me counter
that with you could also do some MLG
[ __ ] clips on this fight. Like like
if you were on like the far team that
had to bait that one thing out like late
in the phase and then you also got like
the earthquake spawn on you. There was
just some clips of people staying alive
that I just I actually couldn't believe
they didn't kill them or someone else.
Uh
>> yeah. No, no, I get where you're coming
from there. But that's the thing is if
you tried to do those plays, nine times
out of 10 you're wiping your raid.
>> So the one clip is really cool. The
other 10 times you're just like, "Okay,
run it back, bro. Eight more minutes.
Let's go."
>> I can I can get the eight minutes. The
eight minutes no RNG. You're always
doing the same thing. I can definitely
feel that. Also, especially if you're
not like a class where naturally you do
a lot of damage, the damage amps,
>> the damage amps were very annoyingly
timed, right? They didn't like line up
with a lot of CDs. They were like really
>> You know how I know I hate this fight?
My class did a [ __ ] ton of damage and I
hated it. [laughter]
>> I was I was pumping and I was having no
fun. This [ __ ] sucked. Also, I think
part of it was like people always end up
complaining near the end of a patch that
don't raid a lot and they end up
disliking the last boss or the second to
last boss for I'm sure there are a lot
of valid reasons, but I think part of it
is like you're just kind of done at that
point. Like you've been raiding for uh
like a couple of months and you know you
you're you're looking to you want to do
this again, but maybe when the next
season comes out like you're kind of
just waiting for the raid progression to
be over. or at least some of your raid
feels that way. And Silken Court by that
point, Ansurak was actually easier than
Silken Court for like a lot of guilds,
right? Like Silken Court was the hard
part and then once you got to Answer, it
just got [ __ ] on. Uh I don't think that
was maybe true for either of your
guilds, but that was true later. Um and
maybe a lot of those guilds look at Sila
Court as like the wall and they're like,
"Man, I disliked this cuz like when I
was on this boss, I was just waiting for
it to be over and I just didn't
appreciate it." Like I just wonder if
there's any negative bias towards guilds
that clear cutting edge late in patches
against just later bosses because
they're over it and that happens to be
the boss they're fighting when they're
over it.
>> I don't know. Like it it was definitely
rough coming off. You went four bosses
that was like sub 10 poles into uh
openax where we had over 100 polls. Uh
Kysta where we had over 100 polls. We
had Silicon Core where we had over 200
polls. Like it was definitely a uh a
sluggish part of the tier. But Anzak I
have p like rated insanely high. So I
feel like it can't be only because of
that. But Silken Court might suffer due
to the grindiness of the two bosses
before.
>> Yeah. Okay. Uh Silken Court dealt with
what is your 10 Datnos?
>> Uh Plexus Sentinel.
>> Um I have it slightly higher and you
have it uh Franc listed. Uh Franc, what
is your 10?
>> Dementious.
>> Whoa. Jesus Christ.
>> Wow. Okay.
>> I'm very interested to hear about that
in a long time for me.
>> All about
>> Yeah, [laughter] I have slightly higher.
>> Yeah. Uh we have uh uh let's see. Number
nine for me is Sprocketmonger.
>> I have that.
>> I have uh I have that higher.
>> Yeah. Uh Dratnos, your nine.
>> My number nine is Chrome King Gywix.
>> I have that higher. And
>> here's my number nine, which might be
really controversial considering what I
just dropped, but give me S. Give me SN
at nine.
>> Yeah, just S. Yeah, Sran just dunks
Dementius, by the way. Just like Yeah,
it's easy.
>> Hey, listen. I get it. But once again,
we're raiding a third boss versus the
last boss. And third bosses, I'd rather
have Sen than the last boss, I'd have
Dementius. S wasn't a fun fight, man. I
I had good fun. I should uh It kind of
hurts, so you have to use your
defensives kind of good. It's a third
boss, so it's tough, but it's probably
like one of my favorite third bosses
ever. It was just a fun fight, man. I I
had fun. It was a good fun fight.
>> I think I think you're kind of cooking a
little bit. Like the first time almost
anyone killed this, you're like near the
end of the room with like
>> almost barely alive. There's like four
people alive. You're [ __ ] taken down.
>> The whole room is covered in 100 pulls
less. It was good fun.
>> Uh yeah. So that there's that also. I
mean, I guess it just kind of looks
cool. Also, the the main mechanic of the
fight, the whole like do the things in a
line was challenging, but if you failed
it, it wasn't instantly over. It was
like redeemable in some way. And I think
that's really important for a third
boss. It's also like pure single, so a
lot of people get a lot out of that. I I
I mean, we both had it a midfine boss. I
don't think like Sikran's the best third
boss ever, but what do you think, Draos?
>> Yeah, I don't know. Again, I think it
was like the difficulty is like a little
too low, and that was part of the
problem for the raids in general. Um,
but yeah, it was fine. You know, fun. It
could be it could be fun to do.
>> Um, I mean, yeah. Is that it? Just W
sick rain.
>> Just W fight, man. Great fight.
>> Moving on. Uh, I have Plexus Sentinel at
eight and the highest I have a first
boss.
>> That is That is the third time we've
listed it. Yes. I mean, we all have it
decently high. I just think Plexus
Sentinel is just one of the cooler first
bosses they've ever made. Uh certainly I
think a lot of people may not like it
because it's just like more challenging
than a lot of other first bosses. And I
think for some people the expectation is
like the first boss should be like
pretty simple for me to go in and get my
loot. And I do respect that. But I just
think visually really cool. Also like
the way we killed this was like [ __ ]
wild. There's just like I we almost
wiped on the first boss and that like
meant something to me. Um I just think
Plexus Sentinel is awesome. Cool fight.
Cool fight.
>> Yeah. I mean you guys really had the
ideal kill of it, right? Can't get much
better than that.
>> Yeah. Well, it could. We could have just
not had anyone die. That would have been
better.
>> Yeah, but that's not as exciting. It's
the same thing with SR, man. You got to
feel alive.
>> Yep. I do think
>> Yeah. No,
>> I think it was objectively a pretty good
first boss. Um I will say like it was a
little bit of a slog, like for a first
boss, and it still takes a long ass time
during like even during rec. Like I I
don't I just I kind of like first bosses
where they go from like five minutes or
six down to like three in farm rather
than like
>> 8 minutes down to six or whatever it is
in this boss's case. So that's the only
reason. I mean I have it pretty high as
well, right? 10 10 pretty high.
>> Yeah. Interestingly enough, this was my
this was my highest rated first boss and
I think both of you actually ranked Vexi
as you
>> Yeah, I have Vexi higher.
>> Hey, no spoiler.
>> Yeah, but like I mean Yeah. Like I I
feel like that's respectable. Vexi has
aura. Like Vexi is like a just
thematically awesome. Uh okay. Uh can
move on. Plex sentinel. Good first
fight. Dratnos, you're number eight.
>> Cauldron of Carnage.
>> I have that higher.
>> I have that higher as well. Uh Franc
>> Mugsy at eight.
>> I have that higher.
>> I have that higher as well. Uh seven. I
have onearmed bandit.
>> I have that high.
>> I had that lower.
>> That [ __ ] shadow priest. All right.
Uh,
>> yeah. Sorry.
>> Yeah, [laughter]
me already.
>> Yeah, Draos, what is your seven?
>> Nexus Princess Kyza.
>> I have that higher.
>> Um, where's Okay.
>> And Max already had that, right?
>> Uh, I did. Yeah, I'm I'm uh trying to
find it right now. My brain's not
working. Okay, here we go. Um, Franc
>> Vexi at seven.
>> Okay,
>> have that higher.
>> Sweet. Me? My six is Cauldron of
Carnage. Draos, you're uh
>> uh I had that lower. Yeah,
>> your next link. Yeah.
>> Oh, yeah. Okay. My six is Nexus King
Saladar.
>> I have that.
>> Okay. I also have that higher. Um,
Franc, your six.
>> My six is Cauldron.
>> So, we have all three Cauldron. I mean,
yeah, we all ranked it pretty high. I I
randomly Someone linked me a tier list
before this that they did with their
guild. I don't know what guild is. to
some random guild and they had Cauldron
as in a tier of Yeah, I'd do 300 polls
of this, which I by the way I think is
just [ __ ] not true. Like anyone's
doing Cauldron of Carnage for 300 polls,
you're you're not having a good time.
But
>> you're rating it high because you didn't
have to do 300 polls on it.
>> Yeah, exactly. But I just thematically
awesome. Also, just like using our merch
as an example, we like I think our
jersey for this tier was Cauldron of
Carnage. It was the second boss and it
obviously the boss doesn't matter, but
it just had so much aura. Just it looked
[ __ ] sick that it made up for it. And
I think if you're going to do a second
boss, there's some room for that. You
know, it's like a like as far as the
actual mechanics of Cauldron, it's not
like amazing, right? It's just it's a
boss. You you rotate between them.
There's some non-moving stuff. There's
some soaks. It's there's the kicking of
the robots. It's super whatever. It just
looks insane. I like that I could stand
in the middle and dot both of them. It
felt nice and unethical shadow moment
>> and then I could dip over to the gorilla
before the bomb spawned so I didn't bait
it back. It was very nice.
>> All right, W Cauldron. Uh my number five
is Chrome King Galleywick which will be
the highest that that is listed. I am
not surprised that mine is higher than
other people's. I am actually probably
the single human on Earth that would
rank Gywick higher than I think probably
anyone else. And it's purely because the
one redeeming quot This fight was not
hard enough for an end boss in the race
world first. But what it was was a fight
that didn't have a dungeon journal and
we were truly figuring out all of it in
real time. And as the main strategy men,
that was just really [ __ ] cool. And I
wish every boss was like that. And that
alone made this boss so much better.
That being said, if I'm in like Ekko's
position of also being in the world
first race and you don't get to
strategize this fight, you just walk up
to it and are just doing it, it's just
it's whatever, right? It's like super
it's a huge letdown, but I don't know.
Even though it was a little bit of a
letown, it was also just really really
fun to figure out. Uh so yeah, that's uh
that's my that's my take on Gallowix. It
also looked really cool. Uh Franc has it
hella low. So what's your Gwix take?
>> I don't know, man. It just does nothing.
It's very It's very sad making it to the
end of a raid to then have like a 50
pull boss that just kind of does
nothing. Like all all the prog is kind
of like the first part of the phase and
then nothing really happens and you just
hope four people live and then that's
it. That's the fight.
>> What about P1 though?
>> P1's got some pizzazz.
>> It is exciting, but I think it's also
cuz it's like it's end of the raid, man.
I'm I'm trying to get I'm trying to get
juiced up. I'm not trying to have the
raid be over. is it doesn't make up for
the fact that it's a complete like
pushover. I think at least in my mind
>> but I
>> yeah there's just this experience that's
missing that a hard boss has where it's
like you're struggling to overcome a
challenge. Gwix just never really did
that like you did not have a challenge
you were struggling to overcome
>> that just died and you know it was like
it was kind of a fun fight to execute
for sure for a lot of people especially
for the mages. I think they had a really
good time, but like is not what an end
boss should be in my opinion.
>> Yeah. I hope uh I hope even though Gwix
ended up not being ideal, I hope they do
more no dungeon journal bosses in the
future. I just think that's really sick.
>> Yep. Means nothing to me at all. So go
ahead.
>> Yeah, do it for me. Do it for me and the
race fans kind of. We're going to go
dark. Cool. Uh so it's just definitely
just for me. All right. Uh Dratnos,
you're five. Uh, Mugsy, heads of
security.
>> Mugsy, I have Mugsy slightly higher. Uh,
Franc,
>> onearmed bandit at five.
>> Onearmed bandit, and I believe that is
>> Yeah,
>> the highest. Yeah,
>> that might be our biggest delta because
you have it at five and I have it at 20.
>> Uh,
>> yeah.
>> So far, so I mean, there's there's
definitely Kyz is going to be the
biggest one. Uh, but yeah, the
>> Okay, onearmed Bandit. Uh, let's let's
start with Franc or Franc.
I mean, you kind of clocked me earlier.
I was my guild's only shadow priest on
this fight. I was like 30% ahead of
everybody else. I didn't really have to
do any mechanics or anything like that.
And then like the ending of the fight is
sick. Uh your your [ __ ] like moving
around the room. You you have to go
close to the chips to get a damage buff,
which is really nice cuz it like it
rewards like personal skill kind of like
there there's all these things and it's
it was just a fun fight. And I'm
probably incredibly biased by the fact
that my number was insanely big.
>> Okay.
Uh, Dratnos polar opposite.
>> Yeah, I mean, Francon's just clearly
been bribed by uh by details damage
meter here. This is uh this is yet
another prime example of why Blizzard
needs to go further and not just remove
details, but not make an in-game uh
damage meter. That way, the the cloth
will be lifted from his eyes and he will
see how fun the fight was. Don't don't
worry about six bunk junker.
>> Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. No, I just We're
the same, bro. We're the same.
No, I'm better than you for under
>> Yeah, sure, buddy. Sure, tank.
>> Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, this fight was
it like it was the difficulty was loaded
into phase one rather than phase two. It
had delightful damage stops. It had the
excitement of getting alt shadow priests
and alt affliction warlocks.
>> Oh, yeah.
>> To play. And, you know, they needed to
It's It wasn't just one of those cases
where it's like, oh,
>> they just need to log in and place a a
gateway, right? It was like, "Oh, they
need to pump on their class because it's
OP, but it's like it's only OP if they
pump, right?" And like that I don't know
it suck. Yeah, that that is I think the
main thing that killed kill count for
this for so many uh or pull count for so
many guilds because I was looking at
like why it's like okay if I went into
Warcraft logs and I saw that a bunch of
guilds had you know like one priest I'd
be like okay I see why you took a 100
plus pulls on this fight but every
single guild in like the top 20 had like
a bunch of shatter priests and warlocks
and I'm like why is this boss why was
this killed by world first guild so
quickly and everyone else took so long
and that that's that's not normal by the
way. That's uh that that doesn't happen
like actually ever. Like usually the
pull count usually gets lower and lower,
but this one was like real first guilds
killed it and then even months later
people were doubling the pull count. And
it's because people were were playing
for shadow priest. They were just people
who don't play shadow priest and in a in
a in a top guild you can swing you can
have people that multiclass like that.
You're just random guild even top 50
guild doesn't have four shadow priest
players most of the time, right? So like
or four warlocks or whatever. So like
you end up you end up running a uh
optimal comp with suboptimal players
playing things and that tanks your pull
count on a boss like that more than
anything. Also, if we're talking
negatives, I have this pretty high, but
I think this boss had really like
underrated RNG. Like when you talk about
bosses that have RNG, it's like more
obvious, but just the the boss spawning
the ads in the right order of like next
to each other rather than on the other
side of the room was such a massive
deal. And uh also the for a boss that
just had a red circle you had to dodge,
it just feels like this one was harder
to dodge than other bosses, like people
were getting farmed by that.
>> Rough, man.
>> They're just getting hard farmed by the
tornadoes. Um
>> I would love to hear from BM hunters
here. Did BM hunters like
>> Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I was about to say
that. I was about to say that I'm sure
this is one of the fights where like
some classes have the biggest variance
of enjoyment ever on this fight cuz
there's just no way the BM hunter had
foot. Like just
>> I don't know. I think some people that
are like super mechanic- minded are
like, "Bro, I'm going to lock this [ __ ]
down solo." I don't know.
>> I mean, maybe. I guess it depends on on
who you are, but it's definitely not the
the same World of Warcraft we're
playing, you know? We're playing two
very different games.
>> Yeah. Um there was another fight about
this, D or this is also a a fight. We
talked about this earlier with sticks
where you can feel like you're a lot
further than you are. I have yet to see
a like pull chart of someone on this
boss where they like progressed it
pretty naturally and then killed it when
they were supposed to. Almost every kill
of this has some like one 2% wipe just
like days before they kill it or like in
the case of world first skill, it's like
hours. It's just one of those fights
where that happens and then you just are
like, "Okay, time to kill it now." and
then it'll just take you 40 pulls to get
back into the last phase. It's just such
a thing. Um,
>> and that is really
>> Maybe that's where my my bias is cuz I
feel like we had a like pretty clean
one. I just sent a picture of it in the
chat. Like we
>> Let's see.
>> Our first low low pull was pull 92 and
we killed it on pull 100. So it felt
like
>> a pretty natural curve for us. Um,
>> you guys probably just got unlucky to
not get a low pull on pull 60.
>> Yeah. Got unlucky. really lucky on 100
and our reclair was bad. I don't fully
remember. I dodged I dodged rec clear. I
dodged it.
>> Dude, all I'm saying is you kill this in
less pulls if your pull 60 right here
was a 2% wipe instead of like a 10.
>> I bet you would have pulled it longer.
You would have killed it. It would have
taken you longer to kill it purely due
to tilting
>> honestly. Like cuz that that's so so
real.
>> Boy, do I have some words on the next
boss in that raid about that. Oh,
>> okay. Yeah, I Yeah, most most pull also
you guys killed it pretty fast. 100
pulls, which is again double the race
world first pull count, but people were
pulling this boss hundreds of times.
Like it was just straight farming people
and it was so easy to wipe early, too,
which is really easy to rack the pulls
up. Plus, it's just an alltime tilter of
an encounter. Uh, but I thought it had
pizzazz. Also undertalked about cuz it's
a trash area, and it's a trash area that
also people skipped, but the casino area
before you get to this boss is like one
of the coolest.
>> Yeah, that's one of the coolest things
they've done in this game. Dude, I got
to like explore that place because I was
going back for the uh there's an
achievement on that boss that gives
decor. So, after raid last week, we uh
we went to or the week before we went to
go do that and oh my god, that area is
so cool. It is extremely hype. Um okay,
also is it never mind. Uh number four, I
have Mugsy boss right after this, which
we're going to talk about right now
because you guys have it listed, I
think, all pretty positively. Um I had
it in uh five.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I had it eight.
>> Uh I don't I I have I have some Mugsy
thought any Let's just have Fran Franco
go first.
>> Um I think Mie saw what should
objectively be the worst raid night of
my life. Uh my guild pulled a classic uh
let's just raid Friday real quick. So uh
so we can kill it. Um going to send once
again a nice little graph of our
percentages here on that Friday. Um we
did a oh let's do like 3 hours, right?
We did 3 hours. I had a deal with my
mates. I was going to meet him at the
bar. It was going to be great. We raided
for 5 and a half hours and had a 0.25%
wipe after our DK left who had the best
execute damage at all. And it is one of
my fondest WoW memories and always will
be cuz that is an incredibly fun raid
night. But man, what what a rough boss
sometimes. Like the first two phases
just became nothing. The last phase was
kind of frustrating at times with like
visual bugs and whatnot. Um but yeah, I
overall really enjoyed my experience on
this boss. Uh had a lot of fun with my
guild doing it. Wish that the like
soaking and and the specifically taking
the last set of bombs where the like
line was kind of [ __ ] up if I remember
correctly wasn't as impactful as it
ended up being. Um cuz it really felt
like all the difficulty was loaded in
the last 15% or so of the fight.
>> Yeah, that's uh I think that's the only
reason I maybe don't have it higher. uh
is the difficulty in the last phase was
so backloaded that you could get there
pretty easily, but then it was just so
nuclear hard that it took a lot of time
to get there. And I think that's maybe
that I could see an argument that that's
like good boss design. But on that boss
specifically, it felt just just the
difficulty jump
>> a little too much.
>> Yeah, it was just so much harder. And
and then also uh the bug in the last
phase, which I believe
>> still I don't think that ever got fixed
somehow.
>> It was active for us, too. And I think
we were world 160 or something like that
on it. So or 180 I think or something.
Yeah. No, that that thing definitely
suck.
>> Yeah, it's uh Yeah, I mean that the fact
that you had to like learn how to deal
with a really annoying visual bug is
just really shitty. Uh that that keeps
it from being a little bit higher for
me. I think the the like lore of this
boss, like who it is, who the boss is,
like the the two-headed ogre, one of
them's wearing a [ __ ] tuxedo, the
other one's like a brute. Like I just
think that's cool as [ __ ] Uh, I also
thought from a strategy standpoint that
like jails and the way that they worked
was really unique. I could see you
playing a certain class and hating that,
but like I just thought the way you
actually planned that out was really
cool. It's a really fun planning boss.
We changed our strategy on how we were
going to kill this so many times. It was
a super epic kill. Like when you killed
this, you were so happy. Like borderline
end boss.
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, like feeling of actually killing
this. Um, yeah. I don't know. Mugs is
great. That's all I got.
>> Yeah, 100%. It was This is one of one of
those bosses that like my guild had a
funny week or for as well. So, this one
we had one where uh anytime either the
boss or another player did a slashyell
of any of the boss voice lines, it would
like play it at full volume for you and
make your character slashyell it too.
So, it was uh this one like that's a
vibe check that some of these bosses
pass like this Rick Reverb, Dmensia
Slater that were just like I don't know
if your guilt makes a weak or it lands
significantly higher on your rating.
>> Yeah, I mean well it's you know how much
is a cause and effect, right? Or is it
like the
>> you know the fights that are just have
some element of of uh passing the vibe
check to them, right?
>> Yeah, that's fair.
>> Um okay, let's uh keep moving. Uh, year
four Dratnos.
>> Uh, Vexi and the Gear Grinders.
>> All right. This will be the highest for
this. All right. You have a You have
this very You have You chosen a list of
the entire expansion of bosses to put
Vexi in four. What What do you think,
>> dude? Hell yeah. This is a It's a sweet
first boss. It's It's fun. It's short.
It gets shorter during farm nicely. It's
uh It does not overstate its welcome. It
kills your AFK people on the entrance
animation, which never stopped being
funny. True, true.
>> Yeah. I don't What What more could you
want from a boss,
>> Frank?
>> Yeah. I mean, that that's a pretty fair
assessment of the boss. Um kind of
annoying that you sometimes have to get
into a bike. Not a fan of of not doing
damn, but that was very minor. Um yeah,
I mean, it was it was just a good boss.
I have those.
>> Oh, yeah. Had a damage amp as well, but
you're right there. It did have that
element of like
>> the damage did
no damage. The damage amp was I feel
like you needed to come to a conclusion
in your guild of like how long you were
going to delay starting the thing cuz
like you wanted if you were a dude
>> somebody always had a different idea,
dude.
>> Yeah, that's true.
>> The boots were ready and one guy took
the bike hostage.
>> Yeah, there were the people who wanted
it to be like 1:30 and the people wanted
to go at exactly 2 minutes or whatever
and like Yeah. Lust the
>> If you're going to lust the burn, you
need to have CDs for it. And if you CD
the pull as a two-minute class, you need
it to be super delayed to really get a
good burn
>> and then like people would just send it
early and you're like, "Okay, I guess I
should have held
>> and then it's I don't know. It's it's
>> okay. But maybe is that good? Like maybe
we don't reward the people who are
trying too hard on the first boss. Send
your cool downs when the the heart ones
and then maybe you get rewarded and
maybe you don't."
>> Yeah, that's a good point actually. Like
imagine actually caring about that. But
people do that absolutely do.
>> I know. I know. And we got to hunt them
down.
>> Uh okay. So yeah, Vexi Vexi. I mean, I
had it a little lower, but not in any I
I think Vexi is awesome. I did think
Plex sent Sentinel was better. Um, but
also I don't have the You guys are
saying like I like a boss to get shorter
in farm. So the thing about farm is I
don't do it. So that's like completely
>> That makes two of us, brother.
>> Completely removed from my brain. Uh,
Franc, what is your four?
>> My four is Kyvesa.
>> All right, we can talk about this. Uh,
I'm just going to get mine out of the
way. I understand Kyz as a absolutely
banger uh of a of a fight. In its
inception was really cool. If you were
to just count the first 75% of
progression we did on the 300 pulls of
this boss, even up to 300 pulls, I would
have called it an all-time absolute
banger. Maybe it's my number one of the
expansion. But the fact that we had to
sit there and one tank this fight due to
tuning, which was the least fun rating
I've ever done, if anything happened,
you were just not only could you just
It'd be different if if someone died and
you just waited to reset the boss and
you just reset it instantly, but if
someone died in the first minute and you
lost that battle res, you had to wait
until the first intermission was over to
reset it because it wouldn't run in the
intermission and it was actually slower
to have everyone try to die in that
phase. So, the amount of time wasting,
I've just never been more frustrated. I
had a crazy headache on this boss
because I was so tilted from just the
nature of what we were doing. And I
don't know, that was it. It took a boss
that would have been an all-time great
for me into one that was one of the
worst progression experiences I've ever
had. But I do totally understand that's
very unique to me. But this is my list,
so that's where it is.
>> I don't blame you at all. I don't blame
you at all for that.
>> Yeah. I also docked a bunch of like I I
put this on seven and I think there were
this boss like 90% of the work that went
into it would have put it in like the
top few spots but uh the difficulty and
then leading to it needing to get
nerfed. This is another one of those
bosses where it's like we progged a
version of the boss that then we did not
get to kill, right? We we got to kill we
got to roll up the next week and like
fight the Disneyland version which
obviously was still really hard. And
there were a lot of guilds on both this
boss and Forge Beeper that only ever
fought the post nerf version and fought
a really hard and fun fight. But like if
you did a lot of Prague on the pre- nerf
version, the nerfs that ended up needing
to happen to these bosses were severe
enough that you basically they basically
robbed that experience of actually
overcoming the challenge. Yeah.
>> And getting the kill.
>> Realistically, anytime you nerf a boss,
the only people that are mad are you,
right? Cuz like the people who have
already killed the boss are like,
"Easier clear." uh the people who have
yet to get to the boss are like, "We
probably needed that nerf." Right? And
it's just the people that did that
weren't able to quite kill it but
progressed all of it. And then when you
kill it, there's like this empty feeling
like you're robbed of the screaming
let's [ __ ] going like crazy [ __ ] of
killing a hard boss and instead it's
just like okay. And that's just such a
let down. And Dratnos was just happened
to be in that in that area. That
happened a few times this expansion,
right?
>> It did. Yeah. Which I mean it's that is
sort of the danger zone, right? is like
if you're a little slower than the race
world first guilds, you're going to
you're going to catch the nerfs that but
like they they ended up being some
pretty heavy-handed nerfs this expansion
it felt in particular.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. I don't know. This fight was great
for us. We didn't have any big nerf
issues. It was nice. It was good fun. It
was a very difficult fight. It was a
very punishing fight. I think I dock it
uh the tiniest bit uh just due to the
amount of damage some of those debuffs
did, man. like needing a healer external
if you take damage is not always the
most fun at least in our world rank
because like you got to get the macro
and everything
>> but like this fight was [ __ ] anyways
it was a great fight
>> I I think you actually brought up
something that's very interesting there
that I believe this is the like single
you could call it a dot with like a big
upfront hit and then a huge hit at the
end but the when you got targeted by
this boss's mechanic I don't know if
there's ever been a dot that's hit
harder in this game and it's on like six
people at one time or some [ __ ] like
it's it's [ __ ] nuts
Uh,
>> not a fun time to be a shadow priest,
man. That's all that's all I'll say.
>> I mean, I feel like
>> especially if you got like two in a row
or something like that cuz then you're
out of juice, dude.
>> I feel like every class in the game got
[ __ ] nuked by that except for like
evoker. Like evoker was the one class
that just had obsidian scales anytime
anything happened to them and they
renewing blaze the dot damage and it was
just nothing. Yeah, I don't know. But
also the dagger dodging was like really
hard. Um, okay. Yeah, Kyza, banger,
except I hate it. Um, number three for
me. So, we're getting into the top
three. Interesting to see how much our
top three differs. I have Nexus King in
my my three spot here. Um, have you guys
both ranked Nexus King?
>> I have not.
>> You have not, but I imagine it has to be
soon. Uh, Dratnos, what's your three?
>> My three is Sprocketmonger, Lockentock.
>> You have it higher. Nice.
>> Yeah. Wait, I had it. I must have had
Okay, interesting. All right, Franc,
what's your three?
>> I have Nexus King at three.
>> All right, Nexus King. So we can talk.
We both ranked at three. I I I thought I
was going to have this a lot higher than
you guys cuz I think Nexus King is a
fight where once you have it figured
out, especially in the last phase, it
kind of just feels like nothing's
happening. Like you're just you're just
like very slowly going through these
things. But like the process of figuring
out the right way to do planets in the
last phase, which I I believe everyone
does our strat for that. like the amount
of time we spent figuring that out was
just so rewarding to see it play out in
real time. Uh it's just a huge trap
offs. But then like a lot of I I
expected you guys to rate it a lot lower
because of that. Like cuz if you're not
doing that and you're just you're go to
these three markers, go to these three
markers. It is just kind of like a
really long phase that's really easy. Um
the the visually really cool ad phase
fine. Uh it's a damage amp fight that I
think was like a little weird with how
it lined up, right? Like if you use two
minutes on the poll,
>> not for me,
>> you could use them at the beginning of
P2 on twotarget and then you could have
it for the burn, but you wouldn't be
able to have it on the ad platform,
right? So it was like,
>> yeah, that's
>> so I think minute and a halfs were
actually
>> Yeah, don't pot on pull. Don't do it.
>> That is actually minus points for me.
>> So also was like a it was this was the
one of the first bosses where the minute
and a half uh supremacy locked in,
right? You had to like if you weren't a
minute and a half class could minute and
a half on the poll, minute and a half
right at the end of P1 have your minute
and a halfs for the ad platform which
they carried it and then they had it in
the burn and I feel like that was like
just it was just superior to two
minutes. You could only have a few two
minutes get carried by the fact that
your minute and a halfs were actually
using on the platform. So like uh I just
found that to be really interesting
because like obviously that played out
on Demensius. If you were a two-minute
class on Demensius, you were just like
were holding CD. It's like you just
couldn't send on CD. Uh at least in
progression. And I I think that was just
a really interesting thing of Nexus
King. Also, P1, how do you guys feel
about P1? Is is P1 an all-time great
phase for you or was it
>> P1 was intense, man? It was intense. I
feel like since I feel like it was even
like more sudden than Tindril. Like you
were [ __ ] in there and if you didn't
use a personal immediately, you were
dead like on the first mechanic of the
fight. and that felt kind of sick. Um, I
think the ghosts were a really funny way
to figure out uh who in your guild is
really stupid and can't turn their
character and they needed a weak or that
pointed at it. Um, I think P1 was
fantastic actually. Like overall, it was
just a a great time.
>> Wait, did I I felt like it was a I
noticed in when we were doing this fight
that P1 and the Souls were a graphic
setting problem, too. Um, I know that
two things about
>> two things are true. There was some
graphic setting that I saw uh fired up
wasn't using and I was watching VODs of
other people like during wipes and like
it looked way easier to see and then I
looked at fired up and it was like okay
change this whatever. Also inky black
potion is something that's really
underutilized. Inky black made the
spirits way more obvious. Uh so that was
something that we never were like you
guys have to do this but honestly we
probably should have. Um yeah super hard
also never the same. you had to be
willing and able to pivot based on the
spawn order. The strat everyone ended up
using uh was where there was basically
only two options, right? It was either
you're going to go first or you're going
to go third, I think.
>> Uh yeah, so like that that made it a
little bit easier to understand, but
like I don't know. I I think P1 I think
you comparing it to Tendril is really
interesting. They're obviously both
second to last bosses, but Tindra was a
fight where it just felt like you went 0
to 100 instantly, and this fight also
does that in a way that a lot of other
fights don't. Yeah, I feel like it's the
two only fights that I've played that uh
I guess start that aggressively where
it's like, okay, you got to you got to
be fully like sit up and and for every
pull like you can't slack one pole or
you just immediately die. That's kind of
cool.
>> Um, one thing that takes something off
of this is the first time you kill Nexus
King, you know it's dead for like 30
seconds.
>> Uh, maybe for you, not for us. Like it's
dead by damage, but you do have to aim
the beam at the right turtle shell and
>> Oh, that's hard. That's genuinely hard.
>> Twice. Yeah, exactly. So, our kill timer
lined up roughly or roughly with one of
those, and that was kind of kind of
intense. And we did have one wipe at
like 2% due to somebody missing their
their shot. Um, but yeah, it was it was
good. We we prepared two different
strats for this fight. One of which
involved, oh, they're going to let us
shoot the same planets over and over
again. And the other one was you could
never shoot the same planet twice. And
that version of the boss, which they
could have made, would have been I mean,
it would have made P3 into just an
absolutely nuts phase. It's like you
would it would have been so hard. Um
Okay.
>> I also like the ad phase. Like I feel
like it was a good one. It was It was
kind of short. It was kind of intense.
Like you have to play right. Yeah. I
don't know. I like
>> Yeah. Uh okay. Top two. What is my top
two? My number two is Queen Answer.
>> My number two is Queen Answer.
>> Oh my god.
>> Uh which means that you have Sprocket
Monger as your number two.
>> Sprocket monger number two. Yeah.
>> I'm going to let you fight. I mean,
actually, wait, both of you had the
second and third. I'll let you cook.
>> Well, that fight makes me feel a lot. I
think there's a The movement was really
interesting on the fight. Uh, there's a
lot of ways to optimize. There's a
slight bit of RNG that made it like
which side you you got at the start kind
of dictated how much you have to move,
but I liked how that basically meant I
had to learn two different fights. Um,
which I thought was really cool. And
then it's another fight where I just
feel like I can't slack at all. like I
kind of have to be on all the time and
then the DPS check wasn't really that
tight for us and I think that's the only
thing keeping it from a number one spot
almost for me. Yeah, it was a great
time.
>> Yeah, it's like they took the Silk and
Court mechanic and they just made it uh
>> fun to play and not immediately wipe the
raid but kill me.
>> Yeah. Uh okay, Dr. I'm assuming similar.
>> Yeah, that was a it was a sick fight. I
don't know. Answer was like, "Wait, are
we talking about we're talking about
Answer?"
>> Sprocketer. Both these fights I think
have very similar uh W's actually for me
though, cuz I I'm I'm sitting here
thinking about Sprocket and this is a
fight where it was like the experience
of Kyza and Forge Weaver in that like
this was a boss that had to get nerfed
into the ground like on the second week
of the raid or whatever on mythic. And
when I say into the ground, you and on
the second week, obviously each of those
fights was like a little different nerf
timing, but this was the one of the
three that my guild actually killed the
hard version of, not the easy version
of. So for me, like that I think the
fights would probably all be about the
same for me were it not for that. But
like this one was it was so satisfying
to actually get to kill the like week
whatever week two version of Sprocket
Monger um the same week you guys killed
it. Not the same week Ekko killed it.
They're they're of course much better
were able to get it that very first
week, but uh that was a that was a
really satisfying experience on this
one. Yeah,
>> I'm just going to jump in right there.
That that's part of the reason I have
sprocket monger lore. Like I was
thinking about why I like didn't think
of it as positively in my brain and I'm
pretty sure
>> if our power doesn't go out and we kill
sprocket first reset,
>> I probably am like this boss [ __ ]
owns. But part of my brain is like the
fact that this kill was so antilimactic
for us because like when we killed this
we felt nothing cuz we're like okay like
we should have killed this before and we
felt like part of that was out of our
hands. So like we I don't know just not
not very positive thoughts about it.
That is probably certainly a reason that
it is down a few ranks from what it
would have been. But I mean I I thought
it was a great fight. Uh also just looks
really cool. anytime you do the like
siege crafter blackfy type like there's
a bunch of like
>> saw blades and rockets and all that [ __ ]
especially with the raid you were in was
like super thematic and was like I
imagine like a race world first viewer
just loved watching this fight for
example and I think that adds points
even when you were playing it. Um, the
RNG on needing a weigor for this, I
don't know if it needed a lot of
maintenance. Like the weigora assigning
people to certain spots and it was based
on if you've been picked already or if
you were the right color. I don't know
if ranged necessarily like
>> we never really had issues with that.
Like I feel like that one always ended
up coming down to like personal
performance like you misunderstanding
what you were supposed to do which I
don't know is fine with me but I guess
that could be different at a high level.
>> Dude, someone in my chat said something
very funny. They said if you would have
killed it first week, it would have
gotten nerfed faster and it would have
ruined it for Dratos. [laughter]
>> Actually, that actually might be true.
>> It's possible. Yeah. I mean, we would we
hadn't even started proging it, right?
Like we we hadn't even uh cuz Sticks bug
Junker was still alive for us at the end
of the first week. So, it probably
wouldn't have even ruined it that much
for us.
>> Yeah.
>> Rumors are Poptart Kog paid off. Dingy
to EMP. Look.
>> Yeah. I mean, I was in the facility. I I
was the agent.
>> Yeah.
>> True.
>> Um Okay, we can kind of leave it there.
That's I mean that I'm pretty sure
Sprocketamonger is like the highest like
fifth middle of the raid ass boss in a
very long time actually. I'd have to
like sit there and think compared to
previous cuz also another thing that
would have been nice on this. I didn't
give him a ton of time to make this but
like an average ranking for each boss
which it looks like Queen Ansre is going
to be the highest but Sprocketmonger I
think is second. That's like pretty
that's pretty insane. Um
>> yeah I think you'd have to go back to
like painmith right before there was a
boss of that caliber. Oh, next
waterfall.
>> Uh, okay.
We have or sorry, we have number one
here. My number one. Only boss left is
Demensius. Dratnos, you must also have
Demensius. And Frank has Queen Anserek.
Uh, we have number two.
>> Uh, let's actually we'll we'll just
start with Demensius and then we'll go
to Queen Anerk after. Okay. So,
Demensius. Uh, I'm I mean the boss
[ __ ] owns last phase all time great.
When you did it in progression, all your
cooldowns lined up. You didn't have to
do any damage stop stuff, which I don't
know, but I think that might be part of
Franc's bit. Uh, P1, this is how much
this boss owns. We found out after
progression that we just thought when
people were dying in P1 of Demensius,
they were just like, you know, there's
four ads out that could all just pick
one person and you would just die. We
found out after progression that those
ads were just bugged. They were just
sometimes randomly shooting off like
four damage events in 0.1 seconds and
that is actually what was killing
people.
>> Um and it wasn't like like it wasn't it
was like going on random people but
enough of that events they were just
literally bugged and they eventually
fixed it. That would be enough to be
like holy [ __ ] we wiped in P1 so much.
Just the progression of this fight when
you progress this fight you progress P1
with lust and it was hard. You progress
P2 first platform really hard. P2 second
platform really hard with a caveat of we
like almost one-shot it and it was
because if you could just kill that guy
fast enough you just our cool you know
you didn't do the delay thing for cool
downs or anything but like you could we
was just kind of insane that that last
winds didn't kill you like it just there
was zero death floor if you killed the
guy in time I think it's a good thing
that that's the case by the way it was
like already really really hard and then
the last phase is just one of the
hardest tank phases ever it's just
positioning wise so insane There was a
lot of constant strategy changing. The
fact that even I hope I wonder if people
still do this to this day where like you
stand still and let the boss drag you
and let it resolve as you're being
dragged sometimes right next to a planet
and if you move at all you just die for
some reason even though that's not what
it looks like. Like
>> that I don't know like the fight was
just like just crazy. And then on top of
all that you finally progress P3. Now
you have to go back and progress P1
without lust which was probably the
hardest part of the fight. I don't know
that there's never been a fight like
that ever. There's always a phase that's
a gimme or a phase that's [ __ ] or
something. None of it was [ __ ] It was
all really fun progression. And on top
of that, it is probably one of the
coolest looking fights ever, if not the
coolest looking fight ever. Um, that's
it. That's all I got.
>> Draos, you want to sque?
>> Yeah, Draos. I mean, yeah,
>> beast mode fight. Um, I want to shout
out one underappreciated part of this
fight as well is the uh the music of
this fight goes crazy as well. If you're
I don't know if people are playing with
in-game music, but if you're not, you're
missing out in the last phase. It's like
the there's like a a choir that's just
like singing in Latin or something about
how how Pogers Demensius is or
something. And yeah, it's great. And and
another un before Franc demolishes the
fight. Um the one other thing is we're
about to go into a world of no weak
oras. Well, kind of in the next
expansion.
>> Yeah.
>> And
>> for sure
>> this fight outside of the P1 mechanic
where you had the left middle front
thing for the gravities, the rest of the
fight is an example of what a fight
could look like without weak warors. a a
two expansions ago version of reverse
gravity in P2 and P3 has an assignment
and a map where you're supposed to
stand, but it goes on a healer or ranged
and a melee every time. And if you've
made your raid comp correctly, basically
everyone except for on average like one
person is doing the exact same thing
every time, which requires no weak aura,
but is still very challenging, but in
the way of you don't have a lot of time
to do it rather than figuring out where
the [ __ ] you're supposed to stand. That
is really cool. That's an example of
like you can remove weak ores and that
fight's the same after P1 basically. Uh
and I just think that was really
impressive. All right, Fran, why does
the fight suck?
>> All right, first off, quick question. Do
you think you have this above answer
because the race was so much closer when
you finished this? Like, do you think
that impacts your decision-m at all? Cuz
I feel like it would if I was in your
shoes. I feel like dementias would be an
alltime great cuz you know you you
barely squeak by
>> I mean not really like I mean what I
care about is being better than our
competition and in Queen Anerk there's
like no way that anyone could say that
they're better than us. We did so well
on that fight that we just [ __ ]
stomped everyone and Demensius I can't
look at you with a straight face and say
that we were just better than Ekko.
That's just not true. And like even
though it was like really exciting when
we won,
>> it's also like holy [ __ ] we almost
didn't win. So like I I don't know
>> play that through for content.
>> Yeah. Yeah, maybe. I I don't know the
But yeah, that's uh I to answer your
question. Okay, I I'll let you continue
owning it.
>> Yeah. Time for the truth nuke. This
fight post the first few weeks. So
boring, man. So boring. Last phase was
exciting. Rest was boring. Uh the first
phase, you're looking at hands. You're
kind of doing nothing. We only had to
grab two people down, so we didn't have
to be as locked in as you guys. We got
the whole damage in about a minute worth
of damage almost. Like it felt like you
were just holding forever. Uh phase two,
you're flying down, you're killing
things, you're holding damage again.
Nothing really happens again. Uh you fly
to the second platform. This one's kind
of tight. Like you have to damage a
little, but you have to kill it at the
right time again. You have to wait until
the winds cuz healer cool downs,
whatever. Whatever. you get to the last
phase and much like you're giving it
credit for being one of the hardest tank
fights ever, um that can also really be
a detriment if you have a tank who maybe
shouldn't have that much responsibility
and then you have 19 man basically
relying on one player and that ended up
being really frustrating to prog um and
then something that like I feel like
very few other bosses has such a crucial
job that's as difficult for as long as
what Dementia's had in the last phase.
um for whatever tank you had running
things. And uh that made it a really
difficult fight for us to play and a
really difficult fight to enjoy because
I feel like I figured the fight out
about a 100 polls before it died and
then you just kind of sit there and wait
for it to click, you know?
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's
>> frustating. No, that that that feeling
of I think that's actually what makes
people hate raid fights. Like it's
really hard to hate a raid fight if you
are the person that figures out how to
kill it on the pull you kill it. If
you're the person in your guild that's
figured it out 50 pulls ago, those 50
pulls are terrible because you're just
like actually not stimulated in any way.
You're just waiting for it to die. Uh,
and you'd hope that, but that's like
less the boss's fault and more like in a
like lowkey it's like a guild fault.
Now, a lot of guilds can't have that,
but like finding good skill parody, but
like like for example, you might have to
you might have ranked this three things
higher if you had a different tank. It
sounds like not% like I think uh P1
would still be an issue. Um, mostly just
due to the fact that your damage really
didn't matter in that entire phase at
all to basically anything like the ads
died long before they had to you had the
whole damage on the boss anyways. So,
you may as well not really care about
that. Getting people down didn't really
matter at all. So, it just ended up
feeling like you were tapped out until
the last phase where you were hoping
that one player got his, you know, stuff
together and and the boss could die.
ended up being a very frustrating boss,
which sucks because I really did like
playing it when it was good and I liked
progging it originally, which is why I
have it as high as I have.
>> I mean, I I don't As soon as you had it
at 10, I I already knew it was the
damage stop. That is that is genuinely
annoying. Like, people like to play the
game when you are when you at multiple
times in a 10-minute fight for 20 to 30
plus seconds, don't press anything and
just run around. It's just simply not
fun. That's not why you play this game.
It's just not fun to do that. Uh that's
why tanks hated necrotic. That's why
healers hated overflowing. That's why
melee hated uh was it spiteful or
whatever where they just had to run away
from the ads. Like like anytime the game
forces you to not play your character,
it sucks. And I wonder how they're going
to go from that cuz like Demensius is
just like one of those. It's just the
first uh actually not the first. There's
been a few in the last two raids, but
for many years after Sanctum of
Domination, they didn't make bosses that
were phase based on the percentage of
the boss's HP. They did that all the
time in Sanctum Domination and before
that. And what it Yeah. What it resulted
in is people having to wait because
that's just how that works. You need
damage for and healing cool downs for
the phase. And then for literally years,
they did not make any fights like that
for that exact reason because of the
fallback. And then like they recently
tried to dabble in it again. And kind of
similar results.
>> It's the same result every time, right?
Like at least if the next phase is hard,
you're just always going to wait for
cool downs or try to
>> Yeah,
>> there's no reason not to, right? You
just get punished for doing the boss
efficiently, which always
>> random random thought before we finish
this off. What was the worst boss with
damage stops?
>> Keazad.
>> Keasad is up there. Sylvanas.
>> Wait, isn't it Zakul?
>> Oh god, Zakul was so bad. But Zakula was
like the fight even starts with it. But
yeah. Yeah, that was also
>> like you literally pull the boss and do
nothing for a minute.
>> Okay, maybe maybe I'm biased on to cool
cuz I went downstairs and I got a lot of
haste and that felt great. I feel like
Sanctum was just the worst, man. That
that's my least favorite right there.
>> Yeah. Uh, okay. Fr's last pick has to be
Queen Anak. You have it in
>> uh Oh, I must have done the list wrong
then cuz I have Lumathar right here.
>> Oh, okay.
>> No, no, it's Queen Answer. It's Queen
Answer. That's
>> Wait, where do you have Lumar? Oh, it's
down there. Dude, I was actually
looking. I knew it had to be Queen Aner,
but I like was actually looking to see
Lumar and forgot it was pink. Okay.
>> Yeah, could be anything.
>> All right, you can start it then.
>> Uh, yeah. I mean, the fight was sick. I
think P1 was pretty good. You did have
to hold like a little bit of damage, but
it was really nothing compared to what
Dementia felt like, at least for us. Um,
P2 was pretty fun and then P3 was just
incredible. Like, I feel like P3 is one
of the best P3s I've ever played. It's
really fun. Sometimes ads spawned. I
liked multi- dotting the ads and like
where we killed it. The soft en rage of
the next set of ads spawning and and
like you kind of wanting to skip that
ring completely or you're just hard dead
was really fun. Um yeah, I mean overall
I think it was just a really fun fight
through and through. Also, your damage
mattered all the time which is sick
compared to Dementia's stinky B.
>> I I thought P I thought P2 wasn't
amazing. I don't know if it was bad, but
I think P1 and P3 of this boss are like
Alzheimer's. And also just like what it
required from you in every phase like a
bit different. Uh I thought the inter
first intermission was good. I actually
thought this was going to be pretty
lowly ranked by a lot of people because
it was just so hard. This boss was just
like insane, insane, insane. I think
Demensius was probably as hard as Anerk,
but like I think Anerk was just like
definitely harder than any boss that's
ever existed when it came out. And I
just anytime that's the case, people get
better from it. But also, it's just you
like I like I don't know. It's uh I just
foresee that making people dislike it
cuz like when you're on something that's
really hard, they just don't like it,
right? But it's uh but yeah, good.
>> It depends on where you place the
difficulty. Like at least for me cuz
like yeah, this was where the difficulty
was fun. I didn't have much fun when the
difficulty was placed on, you know, one
guy in the raid and you just hope he
figures it out and then you pray.
>> Yeah, I guess for me a lot of the reason
that Demenius was so fun is cuz I was
the tank. So, you know, last phase is
like so sick for for me.
>> Um, also like Brew Master in that phase
as well. I was like transcending over
these lines and it's it's rare that
there's a mechanic that will kill you as
a tank, but when you have that damage
amp on you, the the line would um Yeah.
I don't know. I I get it though. I get
where you're coming from because I think
a lot of my fights that I dislike are
ones where I'm waiting for somebody to
figure it out.
Uh I I only ranked Demensius over Answer
for one reason and I don't even know if
this is even relevant because I'm like
thinking to next expansion, but I gave
Demensius points over Answer because it
outside of the literal one mechanic in
P1 which could have been changed in a
100 ways to not have this work. It just
didn't require weak or in any way. It
[100:01] all could have been done by just looking
[100:02] at your screen and answer that was not
[100:04] true. There's like multiple mechanics
[100:06] that had like lists like in P2 counting
[100:08] down. you had like people assigned to
[100:10] like go to certain spots with the uh uh
[100:13] like the explosions and the frothing
[100:15] toxin or whatever in P1. Uh in P3 you
[100:19] had like specific spots you went uh with
[100:21] the thing that chained you to the
[100:23] ground. And I don't know that that that
[100:25] to me I think was uh enough to put
[100:28] Demensius ahead even though it's like
[100:30] when both of these bosses came out we
[100:32] were in the weak oras era of this game
[100:35] and that was all fair game, right? But I
[100:37] don't know. I just that one small thing
[100:39] put it ahead. Also, I think when we
[100:41] killed Queen Anerk, I've never quite had
[100:43] a feeling like that. When we killed
[100:44] Demensius, when we've killed almost
[100:46] every end boss, I knew that it could die
[100:47] on any pull. As much as we were telling,
[100:51] you know, the broadcast and interviews
[100:53] and even to each other, we can kill this
[100:56] boss. I don't know if anyone actually
[100:58] knew that to be true. like like the
[101:00] whole surprise from the viewing
[101:02] perspective of like oh my god they
[101:03] killed it after literally our casters
[101:06] and everyone is on Reddit saying when
[101:08] are they going to nerf this for like a
[101:10] day before we killed it. I don't really
[101:12] know if we knew we could kill it. And
[101:16] then I also don't know if we ever knew
[101:18] we could do as much damage as we did.
[101:20] Like that was just a pull that I don't
[101:22] think we've ever had anything like that
[101:24] where like we're steadily getting to the
[101:26] last phase and one pull we just like pop
[101:28] the [ __ ] off to where we're screaming
[101:30] that we've killed that boss like 3
[101:33] seconds like sorry like five or six
[101:35] seconds before it even casts the
[101:37] starting to wipe you mechanic like that.
[101:39] You don't do that you know. Uh I just
[101:42] don't really I still don't really know
[101:44] what happened on that pull. I guess we
[101:45] just like crazy high rolled or
[101:46] something, but like that that feeling in
[101:48] real time was just like so surreal. Like
[101:49] I just didn't like I think all of us
[101:51] were like, "Oh my god, we killed it." We
[101:52] were like, "Oh my god, we can kill it at
[101:53] the same time." Which is really rare,
[101:56] >> right? Yeah. Usually you have that, oh,
[101:58] it's killable and then like 10 pulls
[102:00] later you actually get the kill pull,
[102:01] right?
[102:02] >> Yeah, exactly. Like I I don't even like
[102:03] for example, if we wiped on that pole
[102:04] somehow and then had another pull for
[102:06] like an hour or two, I don't think we
[102:07] would have a pull like that. Like that
[102:09] it was very I I don't It was just crazy.
[102:12] >> Sometimes the stars alsign, man. But
[102:13] yeah, that fight's fantastic. I kind of
[102:15] agree that P2 is not the greatest P2
[102:18] ever, but I think it was not a bad phase
[102:20] ever. And I think P3 and P1 does like
[102:23] outweigh the the fillerness of P2.
[102:27] >> Okay, I do have a picture of the average
[102:30] and median of everything that we've
[102:32] ranked. But before I do that, I haven't
[102:35] asked you guys to do this, and I'm kind
[102:36] of putting you on the spot right now. If
[102:38] you had to rank the three raids, where
[102:41] would you rank them?
[102:42] >> Yo, Daddy, you go first. That's all you.
[102:45] >> I think ManForge Omega was the best and
[102:50] I think it has to be Liberation second.
[102:53] >> I mean,
[102:53] >> and then Yeah, it's weird because it's
[102:55] like how much do you rate because the
[102:57] the end bosses and the rest of the raid
[102:59] I have a pretty big disparity on like
[103:01] like the raids that I liked, the end
[103:02] bosses and the raids that I liked the
[103:03] middle bit of. I loved the middle bit of
[103:05] liberation, but the end bosses of the
[103:07] other two were both alltimes.
[103:08] >> One thing that I'm noticing is that we
[103:10] all have more bosses ranked at the top
[103:13] from Undermine.
[103:14] >> Yeah, but the the end boss is the lowest
[103:16] of of them.
[103:17] >> Yeah, exactly.
[103:18] >> That matters so much. Yeah, but like so
[103:20] basically Undermine was like a banger
[103:22] end boss away from being like the best
[103:24] rate ever or something like that.
[103:26] >> Yeah, pretty much. I mean, it had the
[103:27] the sticks problem as well. And, you
[103:29] know, it it had some some other bosses
[103:32] that were problems, but it had so much
[103:34] also like just the overall flavor of
[103:36] that raid was so good.
[103:38] >> Yeah,
[103:38] >> it did have a lot of swag. Yeah. Yeah. I
[103:40] would probably go man forge one and then
[103:42] um oh what was Narubar two and then uh
[103:47] >> and give me the goblins at
[103:48] >> mine's the same as Franc
[103:52] uh here is the uh thing so picture I can
[103:56] put it in a discord as well so this is
[103:59] the the average of like what the average
[104:01] rank was on the left and the right is
[104:03] the median so we have I mean that looks
[104:07] about right like looking at the bottom
[104:09] specifically Like that. That adds up.
[104:12] >> Yeah, that makes sense. You're really
[104:13] dragging Silken Cord up, though. That's
[104:14] great.
[104:15] >> Me?
[104:15] >> Yeah.
[104:16] >> Yeah.
[104:17] >> Uh Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I did.
[104:19] >> All good.
[104:20] >> Cool. Yeah, this looks about right to
[104:21] me.
[104:21] >> Mario W.
[104:22] >> Dude, if anything, I kind of think the
[104:23] median is maybe like the perfect list.
[104:26] >> It is. Yeah.
[104:27] >> No, that one's got dimensions on.
[104:29] >> There's there's nothing. I mean, dude,
[104:30] Kyza is getting so owned by me. It's
[104:33] insane.
[104:34] >> Yeah.
[104:34] >> It's just like on both lists is just
[104:36] getting crazy owned.
[104:37] >> Well, no. the the median the how bad the
[104:40] lowest person has it doesn't affect the
[104:42] median.
[104:42] >> Yeah. Or I would have dragged dementious
[104:44] down.
[104:44] >> Oh, I see it with I understand math. Um
[104:48] yeah. All right. W
[104:51] >> Thank you. Thank you for your time,
[104:52] gentlemen.
[104:53] >> Thank you.
[104:54] >> Yep.
[104:54] >> Thank you for having us.
[104:55] >> Yep. Love you all. Bye. Destroyed. Okay.
[104:58] That was a nice little bit of content
[105:00] today.