[0:02] Hello there and a warm if not very very
[0:05] very warm welcome to the latest edition
[0:07] of the DF direct Q&A show. Yes, we're
[0:10] enduring a heat wave here. So um yes,
[0:12] recording this under bright lights is uh
[0:14] just the ticket. Uh joining me for this
[0:17] particular show, it is Will Jud. Hello.
[0:20] >> Hello. Good to be here. Looking forward
[0:22] to talking about the steam machine with
[0:24] somebody that actually owns a steam
[0:26] machine. Incredible.
[0:28] >> Yes. And there it is. Uh just just over
[0:30] there. There we go. You can see it right
[0:32] there. Tiny little cube there. Awesome
[0:33] stuff. Um yes. Um let's just get
[0:36] straight onto it. But first, this this
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[1:51] Okay, so obviously the pricing of Steam
[1:52] Machine, I think it's been the biggest
[1:54] negative factor. I think we highlighted
[1:56] that in the review. Um, and obviously
[1:58] the discourse surrounding the machine is
[2:00] basically defined by that price point.
[2:02] Um, man, we've got uh a lot of points to
[2:06] cover on this one. Let's just take this
[2:08] question from Marcus. Hi, I found him an
[2:10] exclamation point. The Steam Machine
[2:12] price has landed and wow, the price
[2:14] debate has been adnauseium has been had
[2:16] adnauseium though that is not really
[2:18] what I wanted to ask about. Part of the
[2:19] value proposition seems to be form
[2:21] factor integration and library access.
[2:23] My dad is not a serious PC gamer, but I
[2:26] already have a large Steam library, so
[2:28] family sharing would give him an instant
[2:30] pool of games without needing to build a
[2:32] library from scratch. I could buy or
[2:34] build him a traditional gaming PC, but
[2:36] realistically, he does not want a tower
[2:38] or Windows Windows setup or something
[2:39] that he feels like a hobby project.
[2:42] Yeah, fair point. Um, the appeal of the
[2:44] Steam Machine is is a neat whisper quiet
[2:47] little cube of Steam OS that offers
[2:49] something much closer to a console style
[2:51] experience while still giving access to
[2:53] the flexibility of PC gaming. So, my
[2:55] question is uh how should we think about
[2:57] the value of that kind of product? If
[2:58] performance is broadly in line with
[3:00] similarly priced small PCs or DIY
[3:03] builds, is it actually a strength that
[3:05] Valve is delivering something this
[3:07] compact, standardized, and console-like
[3:09] for roughly the same money? I hope you
[3:11] have a great week. ation point. Um, this
[3:15] is an interesting question, isn't it,
[3:16] Will? Because fundamentally, um, the
[3:18] key, um, criticism of the Steam machine
[3:21] is the fact that it does start at $1,049
[3:24] and you can build, uh, an equivalent
[3:27] machine, a more powerful machine for the
[3:29] same price. However, pretty much all of
[3:32] those machines that I've seen are kind
[3:34] of like your your standard um, PC towers
[3:37] or mini towers. Um, small form factor.
[3:40] even then you're not dealing with like a
[3:42] you know a 6 in 6 in cubed little device
[3:46] like the steam machine over there. Um
[3:50] what do you make of this uh discussion
[3:52] about pricing?
[3:54] >> I mean yeah I think it's obviously very
[3:56] unfortunate for anyone that was looking
[3:58] forward to it to suddenly have the
[4:00] prospect of uh a machine that is much
[4:02] much more than we kind of expected and
[4:04] that Valve pitched as being a kind of
[4:06] console equivalent device. And yeah, I
[4:10] mean, I think that's just kind of the
[4:11] reality of the day, unfortunately. And I
[4:14] think, you know, PS5, Switch to uh
[4:18] Series X, and the upcoming consoles are
[4:20] all going to likely go up in price based
[4:24] on our projections. It seems like this
[4:26] kind of crisis is going to continue for
[4:27] a long time. So clearly Valve have baked
[4:30] in maybe, you know, three months, six
[4:32] months of price increases into what it
[4:36] uh, you know, what their cost price is
[4:38] for the the Steam Machine, and they've
[4:39] come up with this, you know, $1,049
[4:42] price to kind of make sure they don't
[4:44] have to change it immediately. Um, and
[4:47] yeah, it's expensive. There's no way
[4:48] around it. But I think, you know,
[4:51] >> I think Marcus and Marcus' dad are in a
[4:54] really good situation here in that
[4:55] they're going to benefit really well
[4:57] from the Steam Machine. You know, it
[4:59] sounds like they don't need necessarily
[5:01] the the most powerful PC that you could
[5:03] buy for the money. They need something
[5:05] that is, you know, flexible, works
[5:08] easily, integrates easily into a living
[5:10] room, and it takes advantage of the fact
[5:12] that Marcus already has a big Steam
[5:14] library, and there's a really good
[5:16] family sharing option. So, you know,
[5:18] from that point of view, obviously
[5:20] you're paying more, but you are getting
[5:21] some stuff in return that you don't get
[5:23] from a standard PC build. And I think
[5:25] that's fairly reasonable. Um, yeah. What
[5:28] do you think?
[5:29] >> Well, uh, it's a tricky one, right?
[5:31] Because, um, uh, there's been
[5:34] comparisons to PlayStation 5 and PS5
[5:36] Pro. The PlayStation 5 from a GPU
[5:38] perspective is a little bit more
[5:39] powerful. From a CPU perspective, it's
[5:41] less powerful. Uh the PS5 Pro um
[5:44] obviously that's still cheaper but has a
[5:47] much better GPU and the gap between the
[5:50] CPUs closes up a little bit. Um the
[5:52] issue with these comparisons with with I
[5:54] mean there's all manner of comparisons
[5:56] going on here and the issue with them is
[5:57] that we're comparing um apples to
[5:59] oranges. So let's consider first of all
[6:02] the PlayStation side of things. First of
[6:04] all, you know, and it's kind of borne
[6:06] out by Marcus' case here. um if he
[6:09] bought his dad a PlayStation 5, he's not
[6:11] going to be able to play his PC games on
[6:13] it. So, you know, this is kind of like,
[6:15] you know, it's it's it kind of that sort
[6:17] of argument only applies to a specific
[6:19] person who doesn't have an existing
[6:21] library of games anywhere. So, I don't
[6:25] understand. I mean, I think in terms of
[6:27] like um building out a console
[6:29] comparison in terms of like the
[6:31] performance of the machine, the
[6:32] performance profile of the Steam machine
[6:34] to get an idea of what it can do, I
[6:36] think that's entirely valid and that's
[6:38] what we did. But, you know, as I said in
[6:39] the review, you can't play your PC games
[6:42] on it. So, it's kind of academic. It's
[6:44] more about, you know, getting the sort
[6:46] of laying the sort of expectation level
[6:48] of what we would have expected from that
[6:50] hardware. So, you know, console
[6:52] comparisons valid to a certain extent,
[6:55] but not really borne out by the real
[6:57] world. Now, you have the PC comparisons
[7:00] where, you know, we did it as well. You
[7:02] know, it's kind of like, well, what kind
[7:04] of PC can you build for the same money?
[7:06] And the answer is um pretty much the
[7:09] same thing, but you can put in an um
[7:11] RX960 XT uh which is a much more
[7:15] powerful proposition than the Steam
[7:17] machine. However, are are we comparing
[7:20] like by like for like rather when you're
[7:22] sort of dealing with tiny little box
[7:25] there and and sort of mini tower PC? I
[7:28] don't think we are. Um that's that's
[7:31] kind of you know the whole point of the
[7:33] Steam Machine I think was to kind of
[7:34] like move PC gaming into different
[7:37] spaces, specifically the living room I
[7:39] guess in this case. And um those
[7:41] machines do not meet that criteria. They
[7:44] don't do that really. Um secondly,
[7:46] there's a lot of other little things in
[7:47] there. you know the um the acoustics
[7:50] just awesome. I mean we we are running a
[7:52] heatwave here. I was doing some FSR4
[7:55] testing on Steam Machine yesterday and
[7:57] it was still operating just fine despite
[7:59] the fact that within my office it was in
[8:01] excess of 30° C. you know, if that was a
[8:04] a PC, that would have been like, you
[8:05] know, fans at maximum warp
[8:09] and even then, you know, maybe things
[8:10] would have uh sort of, you know, uh the
[8:13] performance would have dropped a bit,
[8:15] but um yeah, so are we comparing like
[8:18] like for like there? Not really. Um and
[8:21] then you have kind of like um building
[8:22] your miniITX machine. I think that's a
[8:25] fair shout, right? because you can you
[8:27] can build a living room PC, but at the
[8:29] same time um what's the warranty
[8:32] situation like? You know, there's
[8:35] there's a reason why um pre-builts
[8:37] exist. And um yeah, you kind of want to
[8:41] have a sort of backup of um assurances
[8:43] that the thing is going to work uh and
[8:46] and be sort of serviced if something
[8:49] goes wrong. And secondly, there's the
[8:51] concept that maybe you don't want to
[8:53] build a PC. Crazy thought, I know.
[8:56] So, one thing I've been thinking about
[8:58] is that, you know, even when you do make
[9:00] this miniITX PC, and we speced out a few
[9:02] for the website, is that you're going to
[9:05] end up with something that's probably a
[9:06] little bit more expensive than the Steam
[9:08] Machine when all is said and done. You
[9:10] got to build it yourself. And you're
[9:11] getting something that's really unlikely
[9:13] to be as small as the Steam Machine is.
[9:16] Like even a small miniITX PC is often,
[9:19] you know, in the 20 L kind of range and
[9:21] the Steam Machine is what, like 4 L. So
[9:24] there's a huge gulf in, you know, where
[9:27] you can stick that and how nice it looks
[9:29] and everything else, right? So I don't
[9:32] know, obviously, you know, Valve are
[9:35] making it as easy as possible for people
[9:36] to go out and make their own mini ITX
[9:39] PCs and have the other way of doing it,
[9:41] right? So, they're kind of leaving all
[9:43] the options open, which I respect, but
[9:45] obviously having the Steam Machine in
[9:48] such a nice form factor and with all the
[9:50] extra little features it has, like being
[9:52] able to control your TV, there is value
[9:54] for that. And I don't think it's
[9:55] unreasonable for people to say, you know
[9:57] what, that that sounds good to me. Like
[9:59] one point they've made a lot with the um
[10:02] Steam Machine is that it's so much more
[10:04] powerful than the Steam Deck. And people
[10:06] have gotten so much running on that and
[10:08] have had really good experiences with
[10:10] it. And I think we're going to see a
[10:12] similar situation where, you know, the
[10:14] Steam machine comes out and game
[10:16] developers start to target the device a
[10:18] little bit. We have the verified program
[10:20] to know where games are going to run
[10:21] well or not and people are going to be
[10:23] able to get, you know, every last bit of
[10:25] performance out of the thing. So, I
[10:27] think, you know, there's a strong
[10:28] argument to say like this is going to
[10:30] age relatively well,
[10:32] >> right? Yeah. I mean, it all depends what
[10:33] those new consoles do next year and how
[10:35] they're priced. I think fundamentally I
[10:37] think the core problem here, the core
[10:39] issue is that basically Valve didn't
[10:41] want to sell this machine uh at this
[10:43] price point. I think that's the bottom
[10:45] line. They were looking for something
[10:46] else.
[10:47] >> And um when I spoke to Valve, it was
[10:49] kind of like well you know we saw you
[10:50] added like circa 40% price um to the
[10:53] Steam Deck
[10:54] >> and um is it a similar margin for Steam
[10:57] Machine? And they kind of indicated that
[11:00] broadly yes but you know Steam Machine
[11:02] has more memory than Steam Deck etc etc.
[11:05] If you apply the same multiple to um the
[11:07] the $1,049, you start at $750,
[11:11] which is still kind of like um you know,
[11:14] in excess of PlayStation 5 money, but
[11:17] kind of a bit more understandable at
[11:19] that point. You know, it sort of works.
[11:21] And then we found out, you know, um that
[11:24] um Valve simply don't have the sourcing
[11:26] capabilities to get the the same kind of
[11:29] um deals as Sony and Microsoft, etc. And
[11:32] so that's where we are. you know,
[11:34] basically they've they've um they need
[11:36] some to improve logistics, I think, in
[11:38] order to be able to secure those deals.
[11:41] But the promise has not been fulfilled,
[11:43] I guess, is the main problem here, which
[11:44] is kind of like, yes, we're going to
[11:46] bring a console style box and um it's
[11:49] it's built on affordable parts. You
[11:51] know, those AMD CPU and GPU they've got
[11:53] in there, they are essentially salvage
[11:56] parts from other products. And um uh you
[12:00] know the promise was yeah we've put this
[12:02] together uh the form factor is great and
[12:05] um you know pricing should be reasonable
[12:07] I think was that uh was was the basic
[12:10] idea but the pricing for whatever reason
[12:12] isn't reasonable and and we are where we
[12:14] are. Yeah, it it's certainly uh um a bit
[12:18] of a sad situation really, but I guess
[12:21] we were kind of expecting it to happen
[12:23] when we saw the price increases on the
[12:24] on the Steam Deck
[12:26] >> because um they were just crazy high to
[12:29] the point where you looked at like an
[12:31] Asus Rog Alli X, the Xbox Alli X uh
[12:35] handheld and it was like $50 more for so
[12:37] much more. Um yeah, I mean I'm going to
[12:41] be interested to see if the um you know
[12:42] the likes of MSI, Asus, maybe uh you
[12:45] know um the people that assemble
[12:47] pre-builts like Cyber Power come up with
[12:49] their own small form factor machines
[12:51] that that kind of offer the extra
[12:53] performance with a similar um with a
[12:56] similar price point possibly. I mean the
[13:00] build that you put together for the
[13:01] website I thought it was pretty good. Um
[13:04] obviously it's a bit bigger but still
[13:06] kind of fits the remit.
[13:08] >> Yeah. I mean,
[13:10] >> yeah. Um, it's it's just really sad.
[13:14] Let's move on to this question from
[13:15] anxiously chrono figured. Hey, DF crew.
[13:18] I st I struggle to understand who the
[13:20] target audience for the Steam machine
[13:22] is, especially at this price. I admit it
[13:25] looks cool, but so does the Series X.
[13:27] Um, Steam OS is amazing, but if the main
[13:29] aim is to have a nice piece of hardware
[13:31] that provides a good gaming experience
[13:33] in the living room, then the current
[13:35] consoles already do that. It could have
[13:37] been a great entry point into the uh
[13:39] Yeah, it could have been a great entry
[13:40] point into the PC world. And I admit I
[13:43] considered buying one on sale before the
[13:45] Ramageddon and storage aocalypse.
[13:49] But good prices and sales are just a
[13:51] couple more things AI has taken away
[13:53] from us. Cheers. Exclamation point. I
[13:54] think you know basically as as we've
[13:56] already mentioned here, the problem here
[13:58] with that kind of comparison is it you
[14:00] know it kind of suggests that you aren't
[14:02] playing games at the moment. Therefore
[14:04] you don't have an existing library.
[14:05] Therefore, you have the choice to choose
[14:08] an ecosystem. Whereas, you know,
[14:11] basically, I think chances are you're
[14:13] probably already invested in one
[14:14] ecosystem.
[14:16] And um you're going to need to be buying
[14:18] machines within that ecosystem, whether
[14:20] it's PlayStation, Xbox, or PC. So, I
[14:24] think, you know, that's kind of like the
[14:26] target audience for the Steam Machine is
[14:27] the PC gamer who maybe just wants to be
[14:30] able to play fast-free games within the
[14:33] living room. And um I think that was the
[14:36] target audience and I think maybe there
[14:38] was um aspirations of expanding that
[14:41] audience um by providing you know really
[14:45] good accessible hardware. I'm not sure
[14:48] what you think about that.
[14:49] >> Yeah, I I I think yeah I I agree pretty
[14:52] much. I think anxiously chrono triggered
[14:54] is in the same situation that a lot of
[14:56] people are in where they thought oh yeah
[14:59] I maybe I've heard about the Steam Deck.
[15:00] I've tried a Steam Deck that's really
[15:02] good. Valve can make some really nice
[15:04] hardware and so I have belief that this
[15:06] will be good for the price and it, you
[15:08] know, it looks reasonable and has these
[15:09] other advantages and I'm sure Valve are
[15:12] also, you know, very upset and gutted
[15:15] that, you know, things have gotten so
[15:16] expensive. So, you know, I I think that
[15:20] obviously takes away from the mainstream
[15:22] aspect that Valve are probably going to
[15:24] try and target for this, but it still
[15:27] doesn't mean that um you know, the the
[15:29] Steam Machine is necessarily the only
[15:31] way forward. Like, it's a very good
[15:33] option if you want something that's very
[15:35] streamlined and works well. And, you
[15:37] know, they're making it easy to to build
[15:39] your own if you want to do that instead.
[15:41] Um, one more thing is I I guess you know
[15:44] Sony and Microsoft and Nintendo are all
[15:47] kind of insulated against price
[15:48] increases just because they operate on
[15:50] such scale and they have a lot more
[15:53] leverage when it comes to suppliers.
[15:55] Obviously, Valve is completely the other
[15:57] end of the scale. But we may see that
[15:59] when it comes time for the next
[16:01] generation consoles that they're also
[16:02] going to be at these kind of ridiculous
[16:04] price points and it just becomes the new
[16:06] normal. And maybe at that point the
[16:08] Steam Machine becomes a little bit more
[16:10] viable when people can say, "Ah, yeah,
[16:12] the PS, well, it's £1,500 though, so
[16:15] maybe I'll go for that cut price Steam
[16:17] Machine instead and get a similarly uh
[16:19] fluid experience." I mean, who knows?
[16:21] But yeah,
[16:22] >> I mean, yeah, talking about again the
[16:24] console comparisons here because
[16:25] anxiously figured he's is picking it up
[16:28] again basically. Um the the pricing
[16:32] doesn't really again it's apples to
[16:33] oranges, right? Because you're buying
[16:34] your PlayStation for $600 at this point,
[16:37] right? Um and however, you're um
[16:41] basically locked into that specific
[16:44] store with no competition. Um, you're
[16:47] also paying a monthly fee for
[16:50] multiplayer.
[16:51] >> Yeah.
[16:52] >> So, there's a lot going on in terms of
[16:54] um cost throughout the whole ecosystem
[16:56] there that maybe isn't being factored
[16:58] into this at all, which I think is a bit
[17:00] disingenuous. I guess my question to
[17:02] you, Will, is like um I'm pretty sure
[17:05] that when Valve released the Steam Deck,
[17:07] right, I think the base model was like
[17:09] $399 for the 64 gig um flash version. um
[17:16] they must have been subsidizing that
[17:18] they must have been um basically taking
[17:20] a loss on the units sold and I think if
[17:22] they were I think they've in fact they
[17:25] even mentioned that the pricing was
[17:26] painful for them from a certain
[17:28] perspective it was new for them but you
[17:30] know from that point of view um there is
[17:32] a strong argument that Steam Deck was
[17:35] looking to expand the audience
[17:37] >> you know to bring PC gaming to different
[17:39] places I'm not sure that applies to this
[17:42] but what do you make of this um
[17:44] statement that Valve put out about not
[17:47] subsidizing um the Steam Machine at all.
[17:51] >> Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like they
[17:53] could have maybe gone halfway and maybe
[17:58] just bundled the controller for no extra
[18:00] cost, something like that, because
[18:02] presumably that isn't as um dependent on
[18:05] other uh you know on flash storage
[18:08] basically being expensive. So, they
[18:10] could have done something to make it a
[18:11] bit more amenable, but I kind of get the
[18:14] point that they don't want to just
[18:15] undercut anyone else who potentially
[18:18] could be making mini PCs and kind of get
[18:21] an unfair advantage from that. I mean,
[18:23] I'm not sure if that's entirely not
[18:27] truthful, but if that's the the entire
[18:28] story, but I can kind of understand that
[18:31] if you get into the habit of subsidizing
[18:33] things, then you're kind of dependent on
[18:35] people definitely using Steam OS and
[18:37] definitely buying a lot of things from
[18:38] Steam and it kind of sets maybe the
[18:41] wrong expectation for the future. So, I
[18:44] don't know. In the end, it didn't
[18:45] happen. So yeah, not much really to say
[18:48] about that, I guess, other than the the
[18:50] controller bundle thing could could have
[18:52] been better, but
[18:54] >> I don't know. What do you think?
[18:55] >> Um, I think there is two sides to this
[18:58] because um the pricing is now dominating
[19:00] the the discussion on this to the point
[19:03] where it is effectively detrimental to
[19:05] the product. That said, do do Valve care
[19:08] >> uh because they're going to sell all of
[19:09] them anyway and they're not going to uh
[19:12] miss out on um games being bought on
[19:15] Steam because you know if somebody
[19:17] builds their own Steam machine
[19:19] >> and they're putting Steam OS on it,
[19:21] they're likely going to be buying their
[19:22] games on Steam. And even if they're just
[19:24] a PC gamer, they're likely to be buying
[19:27] their games on Steam.
[19:29] Um it was really interesting in the
[19:31] interview. Uh there are a lot of things
[19:32] that um we talked about and uh you
[19:35] supplied a lot of the questions to that
[19:37] but there was one that I put at the end
[19:39] which was basically you know this
[19:41] situation isn't great you know is are
[19:44] you still going to continue uh
[19:46] developing Steam Deck 2
[19:49] uh because you know this pricing
[19:51] situation isn't going to change in the
[19:52] foreseeable future. That's their read on
[19:54] it. And uh the response was basically,
[19:58] well, people still need to play games
[19:59] and we're going to make the hardware
[20:01] that makes that possible. So, you know,
[20:04] they're still all in on this despite all
[20:06] of this crazy stuff going on. Yeah. I
[20:08] just think that, you know, there was a
[20:10] very sort of specific balance for this
[20:12] product when it was put together in the
[20:15] initial stages. It was to create
[20:17] something more accessible. It was to
[20:18] create something cute and exciting. And
[20:20] I think they succeeded on that. And um I
[20:24] think also there was a pricing part to
[20:25] it which was to make it affordable and
[20:27] that's the reason why you get that
[20:29] specific CPU and that specific GPU um
[20:34] which aren't you know they aren't great
[20:36] parts let's be clear you know they're
[20:37] kind of like just a touch above entry
[20:39] level really if we if we're looking uh
[20:41] looking at it but you know taken as a
[20:44] product altogether with a decent price
[20:47] it would have done really really well. I
[20:49] mean, we are in a situation now where
[20:51] yes, it's going to sell out most likely
[20:53] because they can, you know, they're not
[20:55] able to make as many of them as they
[20:57] wanted to in the first place, but in
[20:59] terms of that target audience, I think
[21:01] it's now skewed from, you know, maybe
[21:03] expanding that audience just to kind of
[21:05] like um uh doing something for the core
[21:09] who have to pay for the privilege.
[21:12] Okay, let's move on to the next
[21:13] question. This one comes from Steve Mil.
[21:16] Hey Fman, exclamation point. uh did
[21:18] Valve miss the mark by not using unified
[21:21] memory for the Steam machine. They
[21:22] shipped with 24 GB total memory uh which
[21:26] thus is their total cost. However, only
[21:28] 8 GB is addressible by the GPU. Seems
[21:31] like a big miss. Having the consolelike
[21:34] flexibility of unified memory would have
[21:36] at least solved the 8 GB GPU limitation
[21:39] and solved some performance issues
[21:41] without modifying the overall costs.
[21:44] Thoughts?
[21:46] I have some thoughts. So, um, basically,
[21:50] yeah, unified memory is really cool and
[21:52] it makes a lot of sense for certain
[21:54] applications, but you are kind of paying
[21:57] a price for it. Um, obviously, if it's
[21:59] soldered to the board, then the user
[22:01] can't upgrade it. Uh, Valve can't easily
[22:04] make changes to how much they're going
[22:05] to equip each machine with. And there's
[22:08] a trade-off in terms of your RAM wants
[22:11] to be really low latency, your VRAM is
[22:13] kind of really high bandwidth and you
[22:16] can only satisfy, you know, one of those
[22:18] things at a time with the unified
[22:20] memory, right? It kind of has to sit
[22:21] somewhere in the middle. Whereas if you
[22:23] have RAM which can be all in on low
[22:25] latency and VRAM which can be allin in
[22:28] high bandwidth, then there's potentially
[22:29] some performance implications there,
[22:31] right? So yes, they they could have done
[22:34] it a bit differently, but clearly I
[22:36] think you know the core issue is that 8
[22:38] GB is just about enough. It's not ideal,
[22:42] but on this class of GPU, which is kind
[22:44] of, you know, we we roughly think it's
[22:46] between the RX6600 and the 7600,
[22:49] somewhere in that region.
[22:50] >> 8 GB is a limitation, but it's not a a
[22:54] drastic limitation. And hopefully
[22:56] through the verified program they can at
[22:58] least guarantee that most games will
[23:01] come out with um you know specs and and
[23:04] settings at a certain level that that
[23:06] isn't a problem.
[23:08] >> I think there's a design issue here
[23:10] which uh Stephen is perhaps overlooking
[23:13] is the fact that um to be able to use
[23:16] unified memory you basically need to
[23:18] unify the CPU and the GPU as well.
[23:20] >> Yeah.
[23:21] >> Uh which which isn't part of the design
[23:23] here. So, you know, when you've got that
[23:25] unified uh SOC, which would be, you
[23:28] know, the the CPU, the GPU, the media
[23:30] encoders, everything sits on a single
[23:32] slice of silicon and um then you can
[23:35] have like a single unified memory
[23:37] interface that attaches to uh the
[23:39] memory, which would be in this case, I
[23:40] guess, GDDR6 or 7. Um the problem is
[23:44] that um that would require spinning up
[23:47] an entirely new processor out of
[23:50] nowhere. So basically then you're
[23:52] looking at hundreds of millions of
[23:54] dollars in development costs in creating
[23:56] a new APU from scratch. Um the only
[24:00] other alternative I think would have
[24:02] been for Valve to do some kind of
[24:04] variant on Stricks Halo which does that
[24:07] job.
[24:07] >> Yeah.
[24:08] >> Uh which has you know they could have
[24:10] maybe locked off one of the chiplets uh
[24:13] for the CPU. You don't need 16 cores and
[24:15] 32 threads for a Steam machine.
[24:17] um uh then you're left with the uh main
[24:21] um GPU slice there where maybe there
[24:23] would have been salvage parts for that
[24:25] as well. The issue there is that Stricks
[24:29] Halo is first of all gigantically
[24:33] expensive. Uh secondly, you're getting
[24:36] performance in line with a PlayStation 5
[24:39] when you're when you're when you're
[24:41] using Stricks Halo, which is ultimately
[24:44] just a bit better than um what the Steam
[24:47] Machine is already delivering.
[24:49] >> Yeah,
[24:49] >> you would have had the advantage of
[24:51] unified memory, of course. Um but that's
[24:55] um uh you would have likely ended up
[24:57] with a much more expensive processor in
[25:00] the in in the in the process there. when
[25:02] looking at what uh Valve has actually
[25:04] delivered here, it is, you know,
[25:05] essentially um a lower-end mobilebased
[25:09] CPU cluster um has been sort of factored
[25:12] into a GPU as well, but it is
[25:14] fundamentally a mobile CPU. And I think
[25:17] you know the the GPU is kind of desktop
[25:21] class. It is Na'vi 33, the same as the
[25:23] RX7600,
[25:24] but it has a lot in common with the um
[25:27] 7600M, which also has the 28 compute
[25:30] units. Um so yeah I think it's basically
[25:34] a case that um the fact that there is a
[25:36] separate CPU and GPU was done for uh
[25:39] cost reasons and then because you've got
[25:41] a separate GPU it can't share the same
[25:43] memory as the uh as as the main CPU. So
[25:46] that's kind of like how things ended up
[25:49] there. I mean, I think it would have
[25:51] been awesome to do a a Stricks Halo box.
[25:53] And I think fundamentally, if people are
[25:55] looking for um um a small form factor PC
[26:00] uh that is sort of more powerful or as
[26:03] powerful as a PlayStation 5 that does
[26:06] have unified memory to overcome that
[26:08] issue, you're looking at a Stricks Halo
[26:10] box. And a Stricks Halo box is way, way
[26:13] more than $1,049.
[26:16] Uh, interesting question nonetheless,
[26:18] but yeah, kind of like um suggests that
[26:21] Steam Machine shares design concepts in
[26:24] line with a standard console, but that's
[26:26] not really how it works.
[26:28] >> Okay, let's move on. I got a question
[26:31] here from Matt GPT. Hello Jets. Uh, with
[26:36] a Steam controller now pushing back
[26:37] deliveries until 2027, is it realistic
[26:41] to expect Valve to ship anything at in
[26:43] volume at the moment? The Deca
[26:45] controller are impossible to get hold
[26:46] of. The machine and frame are delayed to
[26:48] an unknown date. And we have been
[26:50] waiting for HalfLife 3 for more than two
[26:53] decades.
[26:55] This seems to be a bit more of a problem
[26:57] than being directly triggered by the
[26:59] RAM/s storage supply constraints. Enjoy
[27:02] the mini heatwave. I'm not enjoying it.
[27:04] Uh as it seems to be nice for every
[27:06] nation in which the DFT reside. Yeah,
[27:10] it's not great. Um,
[27:13] basic question here from Matt GPT. Can
[27:16] Valve ship anything at this point? And I
[27:19] think basically the answer is it's
[27:21] challenging clearly.
[27:24] >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, obviously the
[27:27] RAM and SSD pricing situation doesn't
[27:30] help. The fact that there's inflation,
[27:32] the fact that there's, you know, tension
[27:35] on supply lines in general, you know,
[27:37] it's just a bit of a weird time to make
[27:39] or ship anything. um they are going to
[27:42] be shipping the Steam machine soon I
[27:44] guess. So that proves that they can
[27:46] still do something and obviously the
[27:48] Steam Deck although it is now extremely
[27:50] expensive we do expect that to
[27:52] eventually come back onto the market and
[27:53] be purchasable and whatnot. So clearly,
[27:57] you know, Valve as a as a company is
[27:59] functional, but I think the interesting
[28:02] thing about Valve is that they're kind
[28:04] of masters of their own destiny in that
[28:08] both they have a huge amount of money
[28:10] and they have the luxury of being able
[28:12] to say, "This is what I really want to
[28:14] do, and I'm and I'm happy to wait until
[28:16] it's done, until it's perfectly ready,
[28:18] and then we'll do whatever we want."
[28:20] They also have, you know, employees
[28:22] within Valve are kind of free to choose
[28:24] what teams and what projects they work
[28:26] on. So they're probably a little bit
[28:29] less pushed by an outside force to bring
[28:31] things to completion, which you know,
[28:33] traditional companies typically do have
[28:35] somebody in that role, right? So there
[28:38] are some kind of structural things
[28:39] there, but I mean, nobody's having a
[28:42] good time shipping things at the moment.
[28:44] Everyone is, you know, thinking, okay,
[28:47] well, how do we make this cheaper? How
[28:49] do we, you know, get away with not
[28:51] shipping our new products yet? How do we
[28:53] wait until things cool off? So, you
[28:56] know, in in in one sense, yes, they
[28:58] haven't shipped that much, but at the
[29:00] same sense, everyone is dealing with the
[29:01] same challenges, and, you know, we're
[29:03] seeing a lot of things getting delayed
[29:04] right now. So, I don't think it's a
[29:05] purely Valve problem.
[29:07] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just
[29:09] extremely tricky for them. I mean, the
[29:11] stories that um they shared in the
[29:13] interviews about sourcing RAM sounds
[29:16] completely nightmarish, to be honest.
[29:18] And um yeah, I mean basically it seems
[29:21] to be a sort of wild west in terms of uh
[29:23] logistics and procurement at the moment
[29:25] which isn't great for them at all. I do
[29:29] wonder I mean we did discuss um in fact
[29:31] um one of the the questions that you put
[29:33] down when we uh spoke to Valve was about
[29:35] sort of securing um third party
[29:39] partnerships
[29:40] >> you know in in in getting um in getting
[29:42] these components and maybe that is a
[29:44] route forward for them going forward.
[29:47] Yeah, certainly tricky though. Yeah, I
[29:49] think to sort of summarize on this one,
[29:51] I think the obviously there's issues at
[29:52] Valve in terms of actually getting stuff
[29:54] out of the door at this point and it
[29:56] certainly seems to be very very tricky
[29:57] and I'm not sure based on the
[29:59] conversations we had with them that it's
[30:00] going to get any easier for them anytime
[30:02] soon. I mean there have been sort of um
[30:05] um comments from AMD that maybe things
[30:07] are going to ease up um sort of maybe
[30:09] towards uh the tail end of next year and
[30:11] into 2028 but I didn't get any kind of
[30:14] indication from Valve that they feel the
[30:16] situation is going to change at all. Um,
[30:19] but they did say that, you know, if it
[30:20] does change, they'll be rethinking
[30:22] pricing on Steam Machine, which I think
[30:23] is obviously a logical route forward
[30:25] there, especially if there are going to
[30:27] be new consoles coming out, which, you
[30:29] know, may be putting pressure on the
[30:33] Steam Machine price point.
[30:34] >> Maybe not because they are existing in
[30:37] different markets, I guess. Yeah, but
[30:40] it's not great. Okay, let's move on. Got
[30:43] this question here from Michael P. Um,
[30:45] hi Foundryman. Perhaps the most
[30:47] interesting part of the Steam Machine
[30:48] announcement was Valve outlining their
[30:50] plans to ship Steam OS for all AMDbased
[30:53] PCs with other graphics card support
[30:56] indicated potentially for the future.
[30:58] How realistic uh would it be to get
[31:01] native Nvidia Linux support with a
[31:03] future Steam OS version? I think it's
[31:06] basically extremely realistic because
[31:08] they've said they're going to do it.
[31:10] >> Yeah, I think that sounds about right.
[31:12] Um clearly uh there are bigger players
[31:16] uh involved here. Nvidia themselves
[31:19] obviously need to be quite active in
[31:21] this and that's not always easy.
[31:25] Historically their approach to Linux has
[31:28] been a little bit more hands-off than
[31:30] AMD you could say. They have a closed
[31:33] source uh driver and they don't tend to
[31:36] make new drivers available on Linux as
[31:38] quickly. I know when Forza Horizon 6
[31:40] came out, I was running a Linux PC on
[31:43] Cashios with I think it was a GTX 1660
[31:47] or something inside and that worked
[31:49] perfectly fine. But when Forza Horizon 6
[31:51] came out and I wanted to play it, the
[31:53] driver wasn't available for days after
[31:55] and I ended up just booting back into
[31:56] Windows to to get that done eventually.
[31:59] So there is, I would say, some
[32:01] organizational inertia to overcome. Um,
[32:04] Nvidia is typically a little bit more
[32:07] keen on proprietary stuff and that makes
[32:09] it difficult for uh people in the Linux
[32:12] community and for Valve to be able to
[32:15] implement things in a way that actually
[32:17] makes sense and avoids, you know, bugs,
[32:20] artifacts difficulties restrictions
[32:22] etc. So, if anyone can make it happen,
[32:25] obviously Valve is a is a really good
[32:27] candidate. I think Nvidia are no doubt
[32:30] looking at the popularity of Steam OS
[32:32] and Linux in general and perhaps that's
[32:34] enough to kind of force a bit of a
[32:35] rethink. But yeah, I'm I'm cautiously
[32:38] optimistic. I think it would be lovely
[32:41] to to have it happen because this is one
[32:44] of the biggest stumbling blocks for
[32:45] Linux at the moment is that, you know,
[32:47] people always say, you know, go with
[32:48] AMD, you'll have less problems. And
[32:50] that's kind of been borne out in my
[32:51] experience. But I guess we'll have to
[32:53] see exactly, you know, how successful
[32:55] Valve are in in this attempt.
[32:57] >> I agree. It would be lovely.
[33:00] Be absolutely lovely. Um, no. Uh, more
[33:03] seriously, I mean, um, here's the thing,
[33:06] right? One of my big takeaways of using
[33:08] the Steam Machine is that basically
[33:11] everything works, right? You've got a
[33:14] great interface that's very, very
[33:16] smooth, very, very nice to behold, great
[33:20] functionality that PC users would like.
[33:22] And if the P if the functionality isn't
[33:24] there, then you know obviously you can
[33:26] sort of dip back into the Linux desktop
[33:28] and set things up there. Then go back to
[33:30] that lovely interface and you're good to
[33:31] go. Um the the stumbling block has been
[33:34] from my perspective in terms of like um
[33:37] Linux um adoption has basically been
[33:40] that Nvidia at the forefront of you know
[33:43] doing some fantastic um new things with
[33:45] graphics rendering right and um you know
[33:48] path tracing multiframe generation that
[33:50] sort of stuff you know uh really nice
[33:52] new features for people to enjoy and um
[33:55] if that support isn't there day one um
[33:58] on all the new titles within Linux
[34:01] within Steam OS that's a problem. Um,
[34:04] but it is fundamentally the, you know,
[34:06] one of the only reasons from my
[34:08] perspective why I wouldn't move across
[34:11] fulltime to a Steam to Steam OS for a
[34:13] gaming box. And there's the small matter
[34:16] of the fact that they've got like
[34:17] gigantic market share, right? which you
[34:20] know if you're not supporting the number
[34:22] one GPU supplier for the for the PC
[34:25] market then you know obviously that's
[34:27] only going to there's a sort of ceiling
[34:29] based on how far Steam OS can actually
[34:31] go. So Steam OS receiving proper Nvidia
[34:35] support is going to be a gamecher for
[34:38] Steam OS in terms of like expanding its
[34:40] reach and potentially causing more
[34:43] problems for Windows, although they're
[34:45] causing plenty of problems for
[34:47] themselves and um and basically um the
[34:51] amount of people who would then be
[34:52] tempted to either a give it a try or b
[34:56] just move over full-time to Steam OS, it
[34:59] suddenly, you know, is is you know
[35:02] almost an order of magnitude higher the
[35:04] total addressable marketplace for steam
[35:06] OS and I think you know that's a logical
[35:09] route forward and I also think that
[35:11] Nvidia are probably quite aware of the
[35:14] dissatisfaction with Windows
[35:16] >> generally and um seeing the way the wind
[35:20] is blowing I mean you know at the moment
[35:21] Linux has got like a poultry market
[35:23] share in terms of you know even the
[35:25] steam hardware survey is saying it's
[35:27] like what three 4%
[35:29] >> and a key reason of that is probably
[35:31] going to be that the most gaming GPUs
[35:33] out there don't properly support Steam
[35:35] OS. So, you know, it's it's a logical
[35:37] move for everybody involved really. So,
[35:40] I'm really excited by this. I think it
[35:42] could be really cool. I mean, you can
[35:43] run Bazite now with uh Nvidia GPUs,
[35:46] right? But um I think there might, you
[35:48] know, I haven't tried it myself, but I
[35:49] understand that there are some
[35:50] roadblocks there. Um, but you know, a
[35:54] properly invested Valve, a properly ini
[35:57] invested Nvidia to make this work, I
[35:59] think it would be absolutely awesome,
[36:01] right? I think it's the the number one
[36:03] sort of um route forward for for, you
[36:06] know, taking Steam OS to the next level,
[36:08] you know, expand it out not just to
[36:10] Nvidia, but to Intel as well. Everybody
[36:12] um could get a really good Steam OS
[36:15] experience. Um, yeah, that's my thoughts
[36:18] on that. Okay. Uh, let's move on to the
[36:21] final question. This one from Darjako in
[36:24] brackets. Dan, I don't know about
[36:26] everyone else, but I feel like the
[36:27] biggest letdown with a Steam Machine is
[36:29] not the absurd price or the absence of
[36:31] Gab's cub cubified face on the front.
[36:35] That That's the stuff of nightmares.
[36:37] Could you imagine the
[36:38] >> Jeez, my god. Where's the lunchbox
[36:41] handle? What's the chance that Valve
[36:43] realized the errors of their ways and
[36:46] add it as an optional extra or a
[36:48] hardware revision? Yeah, I mean I did a
[36:50] I did a he's alluding to the Gamecube
[36:53] here and this is the Gabe Cube and uh I
[36:56] did do a comparison, right? It's in the
[36:57] video. You did an article about it on
[36:59] the website where
[37:01] >> you put the GameCube side by side with
[37:03] the Gabe Cube and you realize that man,
[37:05] this is actually a really really cool
[37:07] little device. Just, you know, I think
[37:09] your headlines summed it up entirely.
[37:11] It's just like tiny cubes are cool,
[37:13] right?
[37:14] >> Yeah.
[37:14] >> But uh does does it need a handle?
[37:20] Yeah, I feel like the the benefit of the
[37:22] handle is that when you're bringing your
[37:24] Gamecube to to your friend's house, you
[37:26] can kind of carry it like this and go,
[37:28] "Hey guys, I'm here. I got the
[37:30] Gamecube." And I'm not sure the Steam
[37:32] Machine is really intended to be used in
[37:34] the same way. But having said that,
[37:36] we've seen Valve release a lot of, you
[37:39] know, 3D files, project files, stuff
[37:42] that you can use to be able to print out
[37:45] your own accessories, right? I know for
[37:47] the plate like on the front that's
[37:49] definitely something that they've
[37:50] released uh files for or will be doing
[37:52] soon. So maybe they're going to go a
[37:55] little bit further release files for the
[37:56] entire enclosure and in that case you
[37:59] could just take out the internals and
[38:01] then get have your 3D printed
[38:03] alternative with handle and then you
[38:05] know jobs are good. So Valve make it
[38:08] happen.
[38:10] >> That's what it needs. It needs a handle.
[38:12] I think I think more generally, you
[38:15] know, it's just again just sort of going
[38:16] back to the to the feedback and I can
[38:18] kind of understand it, right? Because um
[38:21] uh form factor is quite, you know, in
[38:24] theory it should be a really easy thing
[38:26] to express to the audience, right?
[38:27] Here's this cool little cube, but
[38:30] actually it's it's quite difficult to
[38:32] actually sort of say, well, okay, you
[38:34] know, this machine, it's very very cute.
[38:36] It's very very tiny. It's got extremely
[38:39] it's extremely appealing and instead the
[38:42] focus is elsewhere on performance when
[38:44] it was you know the the thing is about
[38:46] the performance side of things. We all
[38:48] knew what the performance would be
[38:50] pretty much from when the specs came out
[38:52] >> because it's existing Radeon and and
[38:55] Ryzen parts. So we had a kind of idea of
[38:57] what to expect. Hardware set in stone.
[39:00] The price is the price and uh I guess
[39:03] from their perspective it's going to
[39:05] sell out anyway. just probably wasn't
[39:07] this sort of massively successful thing
[39:10] that uh we kind of hoped it would be.
[39:13] You know, the sort of um aura of a Valve
[39:15] product.
[39:17] >> Uh there sort of maybe been a bit of a
[39:20] it's not quite the same as it was
[39:21] before. Um anyway, that is our QA on the
[39:26] Steam Machine. Lots more to come on the
[39:27] Steam Machine. Um I'm currently looking
[39:29] at FSR4 running on the Steam Machine,
[39:31] which is throwing up some very, very
[39:33] interesting results. In fact, I'm just
[39:34] going to give you a teaser clip here.
[39:36] This is Cyberpunk 2077
[39:38] running on Steam Machine. Um, and it is
[39:41] the PlayStation 5 performance mode
[39:44] settings and uh it's FSR4 running at
[39:48] 1620p resolution, but it's dynamic
[39:51] resolution scaling. It can go down to
[39:52] like minimum 50% and uh um it it looks
[39:57] really really cool. It actually runs
[39:59] very very smoothly at 60 frames per
[40:01] second. That's um just part of some of
[40:03] the stuff that I'm doing at the moment
[40:04] with FSR4 on Steam Machine and more
[40:07] generally with FSR. Um but that's it.
[40:09] That's our Q&A show for this week. So
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[40:29] other stuff there. Um, add free website,
[40:31] add free video downloads, um, uh, access
[40:34] to the team, all manner of great stuff,
[40:36] updates of the team. Um, but that's all
[40:38] from us on this one. Um, thanks for
[40:40] watching and supporting Digital Foundry,
[40:43] and we'll see you soon.