[00:01] (eerie sound) Every episode of Mind Field is now free to view Whoa!
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[00:56] that helped new research happen and improved the lives Season Two, Episode Six, the Power of Suggestion.
[01:10] (upbeat music) It boasts and enrollment the campus employs 1700 professors,
[01:26] and it's proud to be home to 12 Nobel Prize winners, one of the finest research universities in the world. have embarked on a study that uses a brain scanning device
[01:40] to read people's minds and implant thoughts into their heads, or so their subjects think. to help kids with ADHD, anxiety,
[01:52] migraines, Tourette's, and more. The MRI machine behind me may look impressive,
[02:04] but it's a sham, it's deactivated, non functioning. What this study is really about is faith, in science. It's about the power of thoughts to heal.
[02:23] All you need is the power of suggestion. (upbeat music)
[02:41] but due to the power of suggestion, but we don't fully understand yet how they work,
[02:53] For example, if a small child hurts themselves, negative symptoms like pain and crying can be good. while signaling adults to come help.
[03:08] When help arrives, even if it has no active effect. to redirect resources away from seeking help, Modern medicine has found a way to harness
[03:21] this power by prescribing placebos. For example, a sugar pill will help your headache more if given to you by a doctor than by a poker buddy,
[03:34] A blue pill will work to make you feel calm, because blue is a more calming color. and give you more energy than a blue pill will.
[03:50] because it looks more important. And we're gonna stop right there Let me first introduce who the guests are.
[04:06] Daniel Toker is a PhD candidate at Berkeley at least season two and three. - And the Fear episode, which isn't even out yet,
[04:19] Thanks, Daniel. who worked on season three as a producer, writer. but I save the middle for last
[04:35] from the Culture, Mind and Brain lab at McGill University, And he's also going to be featured And he is the one who told me, Stop let's talk,
[04:49] And I just mentioned in the episode that the color of a pill A blue pill will tend to be more calming However, we need to be,
[05:05] blue pills don't have a calming effect with the soccer jersey of the national soccer team. with a kind of a feeling of arousal and not calmness.
[05:21] the different effects of some colors. as something that triggers high arousal, but not blue.
[05:33] - I'm really not sure. we seem to have some inbuilt attentional biases towards red works really well that way
[05:45] It could be blood, yeah, could be fire even - Wait, but how universal is this? Have studies looked at Papua New Guinea
[06:02] that we have in America or in Europe? I mean, is this something that, you said in built? I think red for sure is something
[06:16] for which we have a relatively innate attentional bias, red processeses salient in the environment. like there could be a person here in America
[06:30] because of their particular circumstances. So I flew in. is how much red lighting there is, big red LEDs.
[06:45] it's meant to catch my attention, It's sort of alarming. And it's more just like a color of good luck. Most restaurants have their title
[06:58] to simulate arousal but in less of like a negative way so red street sign isn't necessarily gonna be. and culturally contingent on some level.
[07:14] is gonna be something that we can automatically attend to. - And once we attend to it, how we feel may depend a lot - But I think the point is that even things like the color
[07:28] and who gives it to you will affect how it works. there's so much more, so much in the mental world. Because if it's a blue pill or red pill,
[07:43] - And you know what, why is it red or blue? The shape? - Right. So, right, I guess this is gonna be a question
[07:55] Because I think in the episode, that should cause that effect. because its molecular structure
[08:11] then there is something chemically in that pill And it's not because the ingestion helps, I guess it's easier to define what's not a placebo,
[08:26] - Well, that's why another term for placebo effects So whatever factors involved in healing that is targeted in the treatment.
[08:41] even that are, so tone of voice setting, waiting times. for all these different psychosocial symbolic ritual factors
[08:56] but that we know contribute to a cure somehow. So those are called non specific, the specific ones. the actual analgesic property of a pill,
[09:11] we know it produces that effect. and beyond that, that also contribute to healing. where we know that specific molecule
[09:27] but healing will still happen, then we need to investigate That are nonspecific. non placebo effect of a medicine would be what works,
[09:43] who doesn't know what's happening, But we know that that molecule in the blood or whatever, causes pain to be felt less, I don't know.
[09:59] placebo effects have been found, for example, who for sure cannot understand the nature of the suggestion, about a therapeutic target and a mechanism of action,
[10:17] then that will greatly help in the placebo effect. who have no idea, who don't expect anything, there's a social cognitive component to placebo effects,
[10:32] what other people expect of you even implicitly. it's also say, the reassuring tone of voice of the parent, the sort of contagious hope that might work.
[10:46] might be involved in dogs and in advanced social species - Very cool. Here we go.
[11:01] because it seems more serious and potent. or Sham surgeries have positive effects.
[11:13] It may be fake medicine, but the effects can be real. we're talking real physical healing, - [Dr. Samuel] So again, briefly,
[11:26] all these different dimensions of placebo effects the more elaborate the procedure, the better it works. but also motivationally elaborate.
[11:42] if it seems really symbolically prominent also. that will tend to work better and also socially elaborate.
[11:54] So if you can notice improvements in other people, you can talk to them, that will also help - It's amazing.
[12:06] when so much of just the way people think about it, And I wanna revisit that when we start looking because talk about
[12:20] making it feel technologically interesting. Why would a film crew be here unless it's gonna work well? We'll get right back into it, The Power of Suggestion.
[12:34] struggling with debilitating behavioral whether their afflictions could be cured - Malaya, I'm Michael Nice to meet you.
[12:49] from a common skin ailment, eczema, Dermatillomania. What like this year? - Early September?
[13:04] So what kind of things worry you? - Probably the picking-- - Of your skin? It's kind of gross.
[13:17] - Have you tried different things that will help you stop? I'm just like, today, you won't pick. And then after I'm just like,
[13:31] - Yeah, is it embarrassing? because my arms are like, if they're really bad, - How are your arms now?
[13:44] - And that's all just from scratching and picking. - 12 year old Nicholas was troubled So what do you wanna be when you grow up?
[13:57] probably a NHL and MOV player, one of those two. is unfortunately also the original source of his suffering.
[14:09] - My first head injury which was concussion, and then I hit my head in a game of hockey. I was throwing up having auras.
[14:23] before you have a headache. and into their concussion program. - Oh sure, yeah, we have almost two years worth.
[14:38] - Every single day, this has turned his world upside down. and impulse control disorder.
[14:51] First of all, how old are you? - [Michael] How old do you think I am? - Oh!
[15:04] What were kind of the symptoms you were seeing? - Tantrums all the time. to communicate to him, to connect to him.
[15:17] Were you like, why are my parents not happy? - I don't know, maybe because I had problems.
[15:31] - Impulsivity, hyperactivity, Where is he gonna go? - These families had tried conventional methods
[15:44] But they were about to find out whether their symptoms a fake non functioning MRI machine.
[15:56] in action is the brainchild of pioneering researchers at McGill University's esteemed Raz Lab, suggestion, hypnosis, placebo effects,
[16:12] that that's a topic that we study And the device that we are using is a sham scanner.
[16:25] we stack so many different layers of deception. done at the Neurological Institute. That's why we have all of this scientific looking equipment.
[16:41] They've already in their mind built up They really believe that what we're doing is real. they're not immune to the power of neuro enchantment
[16:55] - So it's this idea there is immense power that is attached whereby neuro scientific props and accessories,
[17:09] have more healing power, more physiological effects, I mean, the same kinds of cultural cognitive mechanisms So here we are praying
[17:23] - Talk to me about the ethics of lying. we tell them at first that everything that they see that suggestion is a way to tap
[17:39] And we keep emphasizing even as they go in the scanner, that is doing the healing, that they're basically reprogramming their own brain.
[17:51] But for the study to work, So before they visited the lab, to help raise their expectations.
[18:06] about something brand new in science - Well, today, we learned about this amazing new machine - We really hope that you get a chance in person
[18:21] you can focus better, you can be more confident, - Not too many people get the chance but we hear the scientists in Canada--
[18:34] - I gonna have it? - Yeah, and it's very cool. It makes you better at. - I wanna heal faster, and this probably be a good idea.
[18:50] One, this episode is really different because we're treating people in it. A ungenerous way to look at this is that in this episode,
[19:07] and performing fake medicine on children. - So if you carefully examine what we say, it is correct that we explain the mechanism correctly.
[19:23] we do probably rely on the children's in the healing power of the machine And this is because we know it is very effective for people
[19:41] to some kind of an idea that they have Now, note here how both the brain and the machine So we tell them,
[19:56] it is your brain that is doing the healing. for the children to at least initially believe that the machine has some kind of special power.
[20:08] the parents flat out the machines not even plugged in. but is this safe? We're in the basement of a neuroscience lab,
[20:21] - Not even that they would ask, They wanted us to comment on neuro imaging results. We're not doing actual neuro imaging,
[20:36] that are not even there, they would forget. And I think it would demand so much mental effort
[20:49] that people revert to a kind of adaptive self deception. We're aiming to tap into the children's ability like say, if you're really, really nervous
[21:03] to convince yourself that you're not nervous, Now initially, there might have been some self deception. - This is what I really love about all the episodes
[21:19] Because we also worked on the reverse exorcism putting a spirit in someone that, okay. to pseudo scientific practices.
[21:35] If I have some mental block or some behavior I don't want. And my mother takes me to a person who prays that crystal has no chemical mechanism
[21:51] However, if I truly believe that this is significant, and I think so much more about my behavior,
[22:03] because of all of that, I can actually get better. But instead of using crystals, and whatever, we're using science looking stuff, lab coats, and an MRI,
[22:17] and imaging of brains on the computer screens around But in reality, they may as well be laying on a bed - And I like the parallel that you draw.
[22:32] they draw on these transitional objects, or stones or rocks, or even magic, crosses that people can sort of attribute healing power to
[22:47] it becomes a convenient way to instill hope in people. - I hope he heals me with my concussions and now I hope my headaches go away.
[23:01] The very first use of accessory assisted suggestion Mind Field would play an integral role in the study,
[23:13] and the results could be new and significant for science. (upbeat music) several measures were put in place
[23:25] - Nathan. - [Michael] A friendly fake nurse, a walk down a long, impressive hallway
[23:38] And a 10 minute anticipation building wait outside the lab, - [Doctor] Shall we? This was Dr. Veissière and Jay Olsen's
[23:53] on real children with real disorders. - I have a question, so it seems to me that placebos work, have a lot of faith in medical science.
[24:10] I mean, and I guess my question is, who doesn't feel like doctors are working to their benefit, - Well, a lot of people might say
[24:26] But for example, if they have acute appendicitis, their first intuition will be to rush to the ER. it needs to be culturally widespread.
[24:39] where most of the solutions to our everyday ailments and children are receptive to these kinds of cues,
[24:51] So I think, try it out at home for example, show her a picture of a builder, and ask your niece, which one is the smartest?
[25:06] because they've picked up on a cultural consensus that this is where, elaborate knowledge lies. testing medical placebos on people
[25:19] who are completely into alternative medicine, I think it's a good hypothesis. Where (laughs) and what I mean by that?
[25:32] So that's like somebody who's skeptical, even if you give them a potent drug, they don't react to it, nocebo is something different.
[25:47] Where, because of all the done specific crap surrounding a chemical mechanism that should work, it works less well, - That's really interesting.
[26:02] And it may be that people people who are not very suggestible, may also reverse placebo themselves inadvertently,
[26:17] because they can't let the self regulatory magic happen. or naive beliefs in some things like say, that may not be scientifically validated.
[26:30] like say, certain food intolerances, Well, there's some psychogenic factors involved with collective nocebo effects.
[26:43] that they're genetically at risk for a particular condition, or may even trigger the condition in a way that not knowing might have been better.
[26:58] - I think it's very ethically tricky, then. but then there are also risks associated with telling. - Right?
[27:13] neuro enchantment effects So we're about to do a study So Sham, swab and genetic.
[27:32] So we give people a shock and pain. we've tailored the machine and we fully expect that is gonna work
[27:47] And then eventually, one of our dreams three on trial to do Sham neuroimaging to see which one has the strongest effect.
[28:01] Neuroimaging or genetic testing? believing more in genetic testing,
[28:13] Whereas belief in the power of neuroscience we're more than, two decades after the decade of the brain.
[28:25] it'll probably be genetic testing. For now, it depends on levels of exposure. the idea of a gene is still very, very opaque,
[28:37] and this authoritative hospital might-- and telling them something. One of my roles was to help build up
[28:52] the children's belief that it would work. As you go into the machine, you'll relax more and more. - I can go in quickly,
[29:05] Although the MRI scanner was completely deactivated, we needed the kids to believe it was fully functional.
[29:17] to signify that the machine was working. that it would help the patient heal. - You may notice some unusual feelings, perhaps a tingling,
[29:31] your brain is continuing to learn and to heal. And to help you find this constant feeling of confidence. the placebo effect of the Sham brain scanner
[29:45] that real neuroscience was at work. - [Michael] This would allow their subconscious minds to harness the power of their brains to heal themselves.
[29:58] or the back part of the head but it could also be We'll find out afterwards. - Cool, it's like a roller coaster.
[30:12] - The deeper you go in, the more you'll relax. - Okay, I wanna go all the way deep this is because you're already at level three.
[30:26] You might notice a deeper feeling of relaxation. Can we go a little bit deeper please? - [Nathan] I want my whole entire feet
[30:41] believe the children's brains have always had the ability The children just needed to believe it themselves. can sometimes make people sneeze
[30:57] as a sign that they're relaxing just very deeply. - [Michael] The children all appear to enjoy the procedure
[31:09] to reinforce their neuro enchantment. and the second set of beeps - Well, the first time I went in the machine,
[31:22] - What level was she taken to today? - [Dr. Veissière] Yeah, level two is great, yeah. I was going backwards and forwards.
[31:35] You might have noticed how you were yawning. - That's great. Nathan was already appearing calmer.
[31:49] Dr. Veissière bolstered the suggestion that today's session - So I know for sure that you're gonna be more relaxed,
[32:01] much, much less anxious, I would not be surprised at all. If the scratching really diminished to no scratching at all. is that it has this fantastic power to heal itself.
[32:14] with the power of suggestion is to get your brain So how do you feel? - [Michael] Mind Field provided the Raz Lab
[32:28] with Octopus by Joy, Smartwatches. to remind the children in between visits, - Just having the watch with you will make you feel better.
[32:43] that's making you feel good, it's your own brain. at this time when this was filmed, smart watches were like a whole cool brand new thing.
[32:57] And we had to be like, it's not like an Apple Watch, Tell me about the watches, we focused enough on what their role was.
[33:10] So first we enlisted a response in the scanner, anticipation and all the effects that you showed. Now once we've found a target response, like say relaxation,
[33:23] then we get the kids to expect that They're going to keep experiencing So usually respect, relaxation, focus, and so forth.
[33:39] for the children where they would get a little buzz and then it would remind them Oh, I guess I'm doing great. I would decrease the delivery schedule of the buzzes
[33:52] And eventually after a third week, because I didn't want them to rely on the buzzes.
[34:04] a lot of the kids still wanted to have the watch as a kind of a transitional object like a little blanky, or a special ring that people have.
[34:16] Oh, you're at level three. There were no levels. But yet the kids really read a lot into that.
[34:29] And they surrender themselves to the-- or how they felt they were told that's good. - We were validating everything they felt.
[34:45] Or what that improvised on camera? And then we stuck to it. I just allowed Samuel to guide the whole thing.
[34:58] So I go, uh, oh wow. because he'd be like, Ah, yes. Well, oh, you feel sleepy?
[35:12] And I'd be like he said about everything. And I was always excited to see what level of how much further you wanted to go with them.
[35:24] And because as you remember, we had many more kids And we had great results with all of them. So you see three children featured here in this episode.
[35:40] that we actually worked with. not all 12 could fit That's partly why I wanna have this marathon
[35:54] Really, really hyper, And still, there were lots and lots of improvements at home, he made a friend at camp.
[36:06] because he was very focused on it. And I made him work really hard to earn that watch. he was more respectful to his dad.
[36:19] - I think I remember the parents, the dad saying, okay, so we reached a point where your goal that you don't need to watch, after all, your own brain,
[36:33] your own self can control this. And the parents were like, and it makes them more thoughtful.
[36:48] - Do you use any of these tactics on your own kids? who suffered from chronic migraines.
[37:00] And we had amazing results on his chronic migraines, But he also helped in the initial study as a child mentor,
[37:13] of getting into the machine. and who could talk about how fun and safe it was then we were able to have much better results.
[37:26] that we're still using, actually, in the studies And I give placebos to my children, all the time.
[37:40] because you're right, we don't show Matia, Mathias? - We don't show Mathias in the episode, but he was there. And man, the kids believed him so much more than the adults.
[37:53] or whatever his schedule was, and he was honest about the good results he was getting. this MRI is just a piece of plastic, it is not plugged in.
[38:07] in their magnets in anything, it's just plastic. was still blind to the condition, that there was something to the machine
[38:23] he understood the concept of suggestion, - How can this only be a suggestion if I'm in the basement Clearly, they're lying when they tell me the truth
[38:38] Here we go. to check in on their progress. (upbeat music)
[38:54] what McGill university's It was an old discarded hair dryer. In the original study, 56 undergraduate students were told
[39:08] influence sexual attraction The labs new, more modern sham brain scanner in its test on a whole new group of adult subjects.
[39:26] - Okay, so you can come in here and just grab a seat. of what's possible today with neuroscience. to believe in the impossible,
[39:42] Now, we're looking at cutting edge psychological research. It's part of the neural activation mapping project. So it's a modified one, it's called a CTMS FMRI.
[39:55] Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging, - All right, okay. - Okay.
[40:09] Dr. Veissière here will try to infer - [Michael] Most adults know the basics about MRIs, so we made sure to cover every detail.
[40:22] this is good for the documentary team, so that said, we do have to remove the metal gadgets. but completely unnecessary step,
[40:35] it was time to begin our fake mind reading experiment. - So we're gonna start the calibration, there was actually nothing to calibrate,
[40:49] with the expected procedures, sights and sounds of a real MRI study. Okay, think of the number one.
[41:01] to concentrate on the numbers zero to nine, while the machine supposedly mapped parts of their brains. remained in character at all times,
[41:14] but the images on our screens were actually - [Jay] Is the calibration good? - With our subject now primed, it was time to convince her
[41:28] she was thinking of, by reading her mind, - Okay. - Okay.
[41:41] (soft music) (beep)
[41:53] - They're gonna print it out, and then we'll see. - It was pretty clear. of the MRIs analysis, but actually,
[42:06] with a little sleight of hand. - 31. - What?
[42:19] - Yeah, okay. So the results didn't appear to be perfect. - So you're doing well, we'll do another trial of this.
[42:33] (upbeat music) will the scanner get it right this time? - It's clear. - Really good this time.
[42:47] - 27 - Okay, great, yeah so if you can set up here. I don't understand, crazy.
[43:02] - And technician got 27 as well. - Oh, wow, how does that feel? - I didn't expect it to be so specific.
[43:17] - [Michael] What do you know, it worked, the skills of Jay, happens to be a professional magician on the side.
[43:34] The mind reading illusion is very similar that have entertained audiences for over a century. see the stunt performed in a magic setting,
[43:48] - The machine had 89. - That's cool. these subjects thought our magic trick was real science.
[44:02] that the real science they were experiencing. - Wow. can make for a formidable and effective placebo.
[44:20] - What was your experience? I sort of felt like tingling through my head-- Like this whole area felt more like full
[44:33] - I felt like a sort of pressure or something like that, - [Michael] In the back? - Somewhere in the back of the head, right, interesting.
[44:46] - I wanna hear what it felt like to have your mind read. I think I was probably skeptical, like going into it. how that would happen otherwise.
[45:02] - Yeah, yeah. So some deception has been going on today. Dr. Olson is not reading your mind, neither is this machine.
[45:17] All the noises were coming from a speaker. (laughing) - Dr. Olson is not reading your mind.
[45:30] It's just from a speaker. - Well, it's like placebo. Now imagine tapping into this power for other effects,
[45:45] - I'm definitely believe the placebo effect - All right, so we just saw adults being fooled and certainly lied to.
[45:59] However, the cool thing is that, while we punked the adults, we used that same phenomenon for good with the children. we just allow them to deceive themselves.
[46:16] And I never asked because it's his trick, But when the participants said the number on that sheet and the time it took him to be like,
[46:30] And then to hear people say, It's like you were just laying on a bed. It's all in your imagination.
[46:44] a second condition to that experiment, where we implanted numbers in people's heads. So their minds are blown.
[46:57] So one of the guys you might remember, say, I would never myself, pick that number, And so it's in that second condition
[47:11] kind of weird feelings like tingling and headaches. It didn't even make it into the episode. we are going to implant thoughts into your mind,
[47:27] you'll close your eyes And of course, we use the same sleight of hand trick whatever they thought they had.
[47:40] And, like that could be abused so much. But yet we convinced neuro science postdocs
[47:54] with doing like just improvising a third condition or we induce the symptoms of Tourette's. And in retrospect, if we had done that saying the behavior
[48:08] like, we were able to induce all kinds of weird feelings, but we couldn't really get people to speak. But if you'd have taken them
[48:22] that this machine is doing something, to do all kinds of wild things. let's just go out on the street, recruit people to come in.
[48:35] like they're a puppet of the machine. It is hypnosis, it's accessory, ritual assisted hypnosis.
[48:49] well, at least I can speak for myself I know that there are cases where it's used clinically. I mean, what are you really doing
[49:03] - Have you ever been hypnotized? - No, I think I could respond to being hypnotized like this. in whoa, Hocus Pocus, hypnotizy,
[49:17] you're wearing a lab coat, - Yeah, so is hypnosis like placebo But if what you're asking is, is hypnosis,
[49:32] tapping into some, say, autonomic resources don't have access to volitionally effort fully, then yes. So getting people to somehow relax their hyper vigilance
[49:44] or elicits physiological responses Yes. The induction ritual
[49:56] about falling into trance, that works for some people, that may not work for others. But I think that anyone can be hypnotized,
[50:10] So you tap into the kind of knowledge, as being authoritative, then you can definitely get people - So, I'll say I've actually been hypnotized before.
[50:26] And as the hypnotist was telling me, I remember thinking to myself consciously, And then he say, Okay, now count to 10.
[50:40] even though I'm telling myself, in my head, I'm saying, - Wow, I need to do this, I need to get hypnotized,
[50:52] where I'm gonna make you bark like a dog on stage - But you may not be susceptible. So there's a pretty Gaussian distribution of susceptibility.
[51:06] Some people will fall for nothing. - So it's interesting because it is a relatively stable psychological trade, and that's well studied.
[51:19] So between the ages of seven and 14 And some people are so we say their highs or lows, and there is a normal distribution.
[51:34] It was a kind of an unpleasant experience to be hypnotized. I think, I wanna talk about that after this episode, and scary moments, but for now,
[51:48] (soft music) even works on animals.
[52:01] found that 86% of dogs receiving real seizure medication but almost as many a full 79%
[52:13] Now, we don't know how a placebo effects a dog's brain. to associate vet visits and medicine from humans
[52:25] could help a dog's brain heal itself. Quick note, we There were so many takes, were you there, Dan?
[52:40] I don't think a lot of people don't know this. from season one and two were shot at night. from 5:00 in the evening to 5:00 in the morning.
[52:54] But we're all exhausted. - It's like 3:00 - The dog would jump on me yeah. the dog doesn't understand its cue.
[53:07] And he doesn't know when it's a good moment. Shall we continue? - So first, I'll ask you to lay down again.
[53:22] - [Michael] For several weeks, at McGill University. as we keep unleashing this healing energy.
[53:36] that through concentration and relaxation, - There we go. Finally, after six weeks of receiving the placebo sessions,
[53:48] it was time to get a report on the results. and a compulsive skin picking disorder. Had she experienced any level of success?
[54:00] - Go ahead and take a seat, you're wearing you've just got a tank top on. And your face I mean, all of it.
[54:14] - I'm guessing it's the machine. - Ah, I'm not really sure how it works. sometimes if I see like a tiny flake,
[54:27] - That's a pretty short amount of time for such a big change - I don't really feel the urge to do it as much as I did before, so it's a big improvement I guess.
[54:41] and sounds like your brain being powerful. because my arms are better. holding your head up higher, would you agree Anne Marie?
[54:54] She's more positive, (mumbles) I was hoping for this. - Yeah, good work.
[55:06] And ask for Nicholas and his migraine headaches. Tell me about the procedure and how you felt afterwards, I haven't had a migraine at all.
[55:20] - And concentration is a big thing that it helped. - So these go back to February. - And you can see not good, lots going on.
[55:33] That's incredible. - They thought it was quite remarkable. and he hasn't needed the preventer.
[55:47] - I'm actually really excited for high school. attribute their improvements to the Sham scanner. They believed it was working for them, and indeed it did.
[56:01] and impulse control disorder fair over the last six weeks? with an update on his progress?
[56:13] was just what it did to our son, we noticed a difference - I slept?
[56:25] very often during the day, he slept for two hours. And then what happened was the entire summer He thought about stuff before he did it,
[56:42] we were able to talk things out and it's been fun. And we just had such a great experience, - [Michael] The Children's results are encouraging,
[56:56] and our willingness believe them can be. how all of the power was within them, This work is truly cutting edge it hasn't been done before.
[57:13] We also think of this as a great new way - So much more of the public will see what's being done. It's about spreading the ideas that you find.
[57:26] in our scientific experimental paper. (upbeat music)
[57:41] were caused by the placebo effect. The parents knew the machine was deactivated. to put a suggestion in their brain,
[57:56] a suggestion that ultimately came from themselves. and their lack of intrinsic power, No, studies show that even when subjects learned
[58:11] the positive results do not go away. remains with them. I think this is Mind Field at its best.
[58:27] and helping the public see how the brain is studied. But these kids always had the power to start healing.
[58:41] All they needed was the power of suggestion. And as always, thanks for watching. Dr. Veissière I have dismissed Elisabeth and Daniel
[58:56] - I miss them. What are your thoughts now two years after that episode? And so I'm thinking lots of directions.
[59:12] is really interested in this. the scientific community and the clinical community,
[59:24] because it's so weird. it's been difficult to get our research papers accepted this particular project,
[59:37] on the effectiveness of placebo? Like, do you test it against a different placebo? when we try to submit this from publications.
[59:50] so it seems you're doing this really cool, a lot of positive reinforcement. And what doesn't work?
[01:00:03] that is absolutely necessary or essential? Could you just go and, give kids their hyperactivity to be really focused and strong?
[01:00:18] so I can tell you something we're doing right now is, just the watch versus just the machine - Huh, okay, that sounds really nice and precise.
[01:00:35] as you know, so say, the charisma, Like I'm sure you're interested So one of the hypotheses is also that well,
[01:00:48] it could be that some labs are trying to replicate a study. there's just not as good or not as authoritative. And it's not just a mechanism itself that doesn't work
[01:01:01] - Man, it's so hard to control for all of those things, but they all have to have the exact same charisma. Because we really only wanna look at watch versus machine,
[01:01:19] when we know that the charisma can play such a big role. Or is it like right now now that Mind Field is not there
[01:01:32] to bring all the participants in the hospital. And as such, we also have to use a simpler mock scanner.
[01:01:44] a big limitation of how Mind Field can help. I've got a different experimental design But it's very similar.
[01:01:57] I would love to, So I hope that Mind Field and its importance to the public,
[01:02:12] so that they know what to support and they know what to, and why it's important for us to have research institutions that are investigating things that might seem I don't know,
[01:02:27] but yet can lead to amazing discoveries. that might be interesting. I know that you were working with tulpamancers.
[01:02:41] And if so explain what that is. we're also doing lots of stuff related So we're testing like, say fake Adderall, fake psychedelics.
[01:02:55] - There's an episode in the first season of Mind Field, and we have Confederates in the room And sure enough, you can make people think they're tripping.
[01:03:09] just like you guys, and we had really good results. what variables are you kind of tweaking and studying? of non specific psychosocial effects
[01:03:24] including the particular cultural expectations should yield this particular effect. So we're looking at, social proof, social conformity,
[01:03:38] testing particular cultural beliefs. We're also going to be testing, Sham genetic testing to see how convincing that might be, and at some point,
[01:03:51] one of your dream is to compare that to Sham neuroscience, so to see, different kinds of neuro enchantment. Okay, so we learn that people are neural enchanted,
[01:04:04] what's the word for that, our faith and genetic research? particularly when we start thinking about potential,
[01:04:16] So, genetic testing also generates a lot of anxiety. under proper clinical settings and clinical guidance,
[01:04:28] that is thought to correlate And that can bring about all kinds of negative experiences, including sometimes perhaps precipitating early onset
[01:04:43] of diseases that may not otherwise have been triggered. particularly in terms of, debunking, So if we're able to demonstrate
[01:04:57] a lot of placebo nocebo effects associated with, to inform clinical practice, for example, or policy-- - And the public cannot be quite so enchanted by it
[01:05:12] Wow, it's important stuff. As you recall, I did a cyber ethnography years ago, on these really cool, weird young people
[01:05:28] that they come to experience as basically as auditory visual hallucinations, except they're not crazy.
[01:05:40] of having picked up the practice. they're hearing voices, and we think we're able to show that in which you can hear voices and be a very healthy person.
[01:05:54] So now, under the leadership of Dr. Mike Lifshitz, and Dr. Tanya Lerman at Stanford University, of tulpamancers and comparing them also
[01:06:07] to evangelical Christians who speak in tongues. when either spirit or tulpa And we're interested in the
[01:06:23] And we wanna see if something different is going on. is sort of in control. when you aren't in control of your thoughts and behavior?
[01:06:39] then are we literally finding like that is your agency And if it's gone, then you feel like you're possessed. our reverse exorcism episode,
[01:06:55] because I really wanna help in any way that I can. So Dr. Veissière thanks. - It's always a pleasure,
[01:07:07] - Now, we're gonna turn to a darker topic. Should I die? (eerie music)
[01:07:26] will die. I would take that in a second. But how long is too long?
[01:07:40] Is death something I should deny forever? something I am better off accepting?
[01:07:52] (upbeat music)
[01:08:13] death affects how we live and treat one another. like you and me manage the terror of death's inevitability
[01:08:28] That the more aware a person is of their own mortality, of the world on to others.
[01:08:40] Jeff Greenberg, and Tom Pyszczynski or TMT suggests that often we are afraid of change, Each one of us has a worldview, a set of beliefs,
[01:08:56] after our business physical bodies die. are correlated with rises in the salience of mortality,
[01:09:09] is in people's minds. and two have TMT originators Jeff and Sheldon of Terror Management Theory
[01:09:22] and real life reminders of death. What's your hypothesis today? Well, I think we're gonna hope for the participants
[01:09:34] who are reminded of their mortality to be more punitive, - Let's see what happens. - [Michael] For our study, we created a fake Research Center
[01:09:46] to be a part of what they were told was a focus group During the actual study, each group will hear and will then be asked to propose a punishment
[01:10:01] ranging from one to seven, with one being the most lenient, The control group will simply enter the survey room
[01:10:13] The experimental group, however, will first be exposed with strategically placed posters in the lobby. will include questions about their own death.
[01:10:29] with violations of common worldviews, will recommend bigger punishments for the crimes presented. not just the survey questions usually used
[01:10:44] Well, first, let's look at the control participants. there are no right or wrong answers. This is just about your gut level reactions.
[01:10:59] After raising millions of dollars a fundraising manager unhappy with this life where he was living under a different name.
[01:11:15] So one, his punishment three months in prison, Please answer now. (upbeat music)
[01:11:27] - This is one that I think does has views on both sides. If our control group is already maxing out like that,
[01:11:39] to show any effective mortality salience. learning how to better isolate mortality salient's effect Hey! - Hey.
[01:11:53] - An imposter with no medical training posed as a surgeon The patient recovered fully after additional treatment. One is six months on probation, seven is 10 years in prison.
[01:12:08] - Okay, if you are taking on the persona of a doctor, (bell ringing)
[01:12:20] and was found to be under the influence of narcotics, and ruining her career. A 16 year old girl who had just received her license
[01:12:34] that was being driven by a talented pianist. A couple was taking their two children to the playground there could be a gender gap.
[01:12:49] - [Jeff] Yeah, absolutely. (upbeat music) for spring painting profanities at the Lincoln Memorial
[01:13:03] - Wow, she went one right away. of authority and rules. - Yeah. (upbeat music)
[01:13:16] - All right, so here's the results These are averages per question. - The fours are great, the three is great.
[01:13:31] - Seven was the max sentencing value and our control group gave an average of 4.5. - Absolutely.
[01:13:44] Remember, they will be seeing posters and will be asked different questions in their questionnaire that the thought of your own death arouses in you.
[01:14:01] what you think will happen to you physically as you die. Let's see if this group is more punitive towards worldview violations.
[01:14:17] for needy children, a fundraising manager and was arrested months later in Tasmania. seven, 10 years in prison, please answer now.
[01:14:31] (upbeat music) - Please hold up your answers. - Ah, okay.
[01:14:44] (upbeat music) and bungled a minor operation to remove a child's tonsils. One, six months on probation, seven, 10 years in prison.
[01:14:59] (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
[01:15:14] - A 10, I'm pretty sure she knows that seven is the highest. even though I'm like breaking the bounds (upbeat music)
[01:15:31] at the Lincoln Memorial in Washington DC. - I really do appreciate the way they clearly
[01:15:43] seem to be taking a bit more time to deliberate. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
[01:15:58] and tell them that we will be in shortly. So if you don't mind just hanging out for a moment. to ask you a couple questions.
[01:16:10] we showed our experimental group were salient enough. did you all notice the posters at all? - Okay.
[01:16:25] and I saw the gravestones. - I wondered what did I get into? that's called Terror Management Theory.
[01:16:39] can affect the behaviors that you exhibit, knowing that we are mortal, by behaving in certain ways,
[01:16:52] because we can kind of live on through the societies - Did any of you feel like you were still thinking - I was definitely going after people
[01:17:08] Yes, I noticed that. - So this was incredibly helpful. It looks like our experimental stimuli were successful.
[01:17:22] to think they were related to the study. - The control participants averaged about 4.5. The experimental participants were close to 4.7.
[01:17:37] So there's a slight tendency for the experimental people But we're talking about relatively It just makes me hungry to run more people.
[01:17:51] That's statistically insignificant. of mortality salience today? tended to take a little longer before responding
[01:18:05] they really put more effort into trying - Absolutely. a couple more passes and some more vetting,
[01:18:18] it took for our groups to respond. and 46 seconds to decide on their punishments. of seven minutes, 18 seconds.
[01:18:33] the right thing by their own worldview. we wanna do what's right. we wanna make the right decisions.
[01:18:45] the goal isn't to prove one thing one way or the other. In the most careful way possible. To know a little bit more today than we did yesterday.
[01:19:01] And luckily, I've got just the person here with me a clinical neuropsychologist, tenured professor at Pepperdine, you run your own practice,
[01:19:15] What is your actual position? at Pepperdine University, because you were doing the trolley experiment.
[01:19:27] - Yes, if you have seen the trolley problem episode helping us with the ethics Maybe it's not okay for the university to do,
[01:19:41] Bottom line is we learned a lot. about running experiments on people, okay.
[01:19:53] But also running experiments on people for a TV show. And I think that what we just saw is a great example
[01:20:07] that are both good and bad, when it comes to psychological experiments. - So the biggest problem we have is,
[01:20:20] enormous numbers of participants. and we have a whole crew working with us, we can run like a couple dozen.
[01:20:36] a statistically significant result. - Also, I think it's very clear here.
[01:20:49] The kinds of participants who come on to the show, by the way until the end when we debrief them, but the kinds of people who are available here in LA,
[01:21:01] - Right. and a very wide group of people. and we needed people to be free in the middle of the day,
[01:21:14] - Yeah. their worldviews would be pretty similar. I mean, they're all at the same institution,
[01:21:27] because they're at this university. Their cultural backgrounds might be much more similar where we might get retired people and immigrants
[01:21:43] and really young people and actors, a lot of actors. who were free to do studies in the middle of the day, who part time actors is a huge,
[01:21:56] goes, wait a second, and they Google up something Is this all just fake? to just grab who's available in LA.
[01:22:11] But because of the diversity that we get, I think our populations represent the country better. - Yes.
[01:22:23] an American monument are going to have very different answers from different people. - And in this particular study, we had that problem.
[01:22:38] that you're going to die someday, had very different worldviews. - A lot of stuff to talk about.
[01:22:52] And it was a really, really good episode to watch. of the theory that was so cool 'Cause they are invested in the theory.
[01:23:05] And it was truly science in action. we found out Wow, some of these are just so extreme,
[01:23:18] for any other variables to change in that direction. So we had to rewrite them in between days, - Yeah, no, it was really cool to see it in action.
[01:23:33] the control group and the experimental group was as they were considering all of this. that they just seemed like they were taking
[01:23:46] Whereas sometimes when you get these people $10 or whatever you're offering them for their time. And I certainly saw that with a second group,
[01:24:00] there was just this real pronounced sense of gravity what the severity of punishment dealt out, that will be
[01:24:14] But it turned out to be disposition and thoughtfulness. So we could go back and say, how long did they take?
[01:24:27] And we found out that it took almost twice as long about what I think death will be like. This is a heavy thing, too, and they reacted differently.
[01:24:44] I mean, I understand the original tenants But I can also imagine when somebody is really, that they might actually be more lenient,
[01:24:57] And so I think part of what wasn't measured is actually trying to counterbalance the two groups in terms of do you have the same types of belief systems,
[01:25:10] then they're kind of just going at their own values. you can see why that noise could contribute - Exactly, which is basically no difference at all right?
[01:25:23] - But yes, I think in hindsight, and this is, again, all right, what can we learn? the uncertainty on this track down and down?
[01:25:37] what people's worldviews were ahead of time, long enough ago, that they don't remember it anymore, right? too much that the questions are related,
[01:25:53] then the test, I think, could have given us better results And it can be frustrating when you wanna do a show, but you also want to experiment.
[01:26:07] with everything nicely tied up. but it has been frustrating to do experiments it's easier on the Mind Field,
[01:26:22] we just need to see it happen one time. - Like can I get someone to falsely confessed to a crime? But if I wanna see a tendency for people
[01:26:36] their worldview violations, if they're reminded of death, So I mean, what do you what do you think?
[01:26:48] - Honestly, I don't think so. that social psychology experiences (mumbles) especially, of very homogenous populations,
[01:27:01] who are given the option of either doing It's not really very ethical, actually. And so you're gonna get lots of first
[01:27:16] And, again, it's still for a class. Because what if the professor discovers that are already inherently an issue,
[01:27:30] And I think what a TV experiment really does planned out research study with hundreds is a really lively and visual demonstration.
[01:27:47] Now, I wanna take that study protocol, - Which they should do, by the way, Mind Field would have done its job.
[01:28:00] But yeah, I think the responsibility I have with Mind Field is to document how science is done, And then the comments
[01:28:13] how it would have been a differently and I'm like, perfect. - Exactly go off and do that, And I still don't know how it would go
[01:28:27] - Well, and I think it also shows Like oftentimes you have your hypotheses, and you would see that there was gonna be more severity
[01:28:40] But actually, you didn't see that. And, oh, it's how long they took. And that difference was significant.
[01:28:56] that the experimental group, it was cool to see that. which it's hard to measure. everything from multiple angles, you have that evidence,
[01:29:12] Like, when I was watching them, I felt bad for them. it's like hey, this person botched a surgery Or this doctor got drunk and hurt someone.
[01:29:27] - This really just brings up though, kind of the spirit because it's always a cost benefit analysis. It's really about what kind of information you're getting.
[01:29:42] Or are you providing some kind of educational value or a way When I first saw you in the casket, We talked about this on the most recent episode I worked on
[01:29:58] So that you are providing some value and insight of my time on this earth? that I'm gonna feel better about myself in my life
[01:30:13] for people to better their lives. - Yeah, that's my favorite part of every experiment we run, And people they've never gone,
[01:30:28] But also, of course, they're like, wow, oh, yeah. to think about it on the on the car home,
[01:30:40] And I hope it does a lot of good for them, - Yeah, yeah, exactly. of why the experiments are important on TV,
[01:30:55] And if it encourages people to think about themselves, and family, then I think you've done a great job. will turn out different if you had 500 people running it,
[01:31:10] as it is built is what's triggering these people I mean, that's part of the problem with experiments a psychologist to subscribe
[01:31:25] that you wanna pay your $500 a year. Oh, my gosh! and not feel afraid, a lot of people will tell me,
[01:31:40] Well, the way that it was broken down in the episode, can't do a version of it themselves sometimes. - Yeah, we made it look easy, love to hear that.
[01:31:56] to talk about hidden camera shows. how do the people not know they're on TV?
[01:32:08] How do they not see the cameras? And they don't, we do a really good job. and I'm working with the best hidden camera people.
[01:32:21] but aren't we gonna film this? - Yeah, the ways they have the disguise cameras, So that people know how well hidden the cameras were.
[01:32:36] the producers are like, no, and they'll know what to look at. You know what?
[01:32:49] there's probably a camera behind it. If you look at the projectors screen,
[01:33:01] And that is something that a camera can see through. It's just this boring feature, and no one notices. they're all like, what?
[01:33:16] after they learn that, or else people will act different if they know And we see that a lot in social psychology studies,
[01:33:31] can already impact how they respond. it feels less like an audience. and it does like really,
[01:33:45] with themselves, deal with each other, a little bit more ginger with things. are watching and taking notes about them.
[01:33:58] we really need to get back into the episode, So Mind Field began, that at the time I called Prankology,
[01:34:14] and college psychology professors and then talk about the social psychology The clips were entertaining, the science was cool.
[01:34:27] and pranks were kind of a thing because of Punked. But all of the pranks that like networks wanted to do They just wanted people to get really scared
[01:34:42] Luckily, YouTube saw that there was value We're like, so is anyone gonna scream? And I'm like, no, they're just gonna respond
[01:34:55] to a question with a number. How do you have someone fill out a survey Well, we came up with the idea of having them write
[01:35:08] their number and then show it to the proctor of the study, That's the whole reason they did it that way, - Which of course changes results too.
[01:35:20] - They're showing, then their face is associated with it. we had to put those blinders up. Because we knew that that would affect it.
[01:35:33] we want them to put the number up but we don't want that to affect So how do we make sure that it still feels
[01:35:45] - A lot of thinking goes in this. And I also wonder to just even the characteristics Again, with certain of those questions,
[01:35:59] of well, this person might judge me if I rate this a seven, of what that person might be thinking-- more experimenting with more.
[01:36:12] What I can say is that during those trials, she's just perfect at this kind of role, and many others, but we told her, you have to kind of act bored.
[01:36:27] - Yeah, no gasps of surprise. Also, she just read a script, she read each word off a page. And it was just monotone, which is a funny direction to give
[01:36:44] To be like, we need you to-- - As boring as possible. - Right, right. - Always a pleasure. - Awesome.
[01:36:59] when we come back, I will have a new guest, but I'll have a different guest. about whether Michael should die.
[01:37:12] Our pilot test shows that there's still a lot to discover about terror management, and many promising ways to do it. that for all the closed mindedness,
[01:37:26] mortality salience appears to cause it also led to what looked like increased consideration, and thought, But the point is this.
[01:37:38] If death's effects aren't all entirely bad, what if, instead of, or at least, at the same time we also find a way to accept it.
[01:37:55] Now, obviously, I don't want to die, at least not soon. and being less afraid of it feels powerful, and honest.
[01:38:08] (soft music) author and death positivity activist
[01:38:22] the aspects of death that most of us prefer to ignore. and says, I think death is terrifying.
[01:38:35] so scary and sad that Or is this person-- I would tell you a couple things.
[01:38:49] with the primal existential quandary of human existence. the many billions of people who have felt this, So we go through life, we reach a certain age,
[01:39:05] and we begin to understand that someday, And that's powerful, painful knowledge. we have to start developing
[01:39:19] and to integrate that into our lives. - I think that the more obvious ones would be having a child creating a legacy of some kind,
[01:39:35] but there's also a more insidious version, which is war, and being okay with other people being poor. they're all saying, but I'm okay
[01:39:48] or I have these kind of dark impulses that allow me to say, And of course, that's not true, no one can outrun death.
[01:40:01] - So how would you characterize - Take America 150 years ago, I would be entirely in charge of you,
[01:40:17] to make a wooden coffin for you, on our shoulders to the grave It would have been an entirely self sufficient process.
[01:40:31] is really three big things in my mind. so people were no longer dying at home, which means that we are now outsourcing our death.
[01:40:47] so all of a sudden, all food production, And we live in our suburban houses and layers of denial around death.
[01:41:04] - But what does it mean to accept death? - I don't think that you ever truly accept death. But I believe that the movement toward accepting death
[01:41:16] about where you're hiding your fears of death. That's where real awareness and acceptance can come from. is that I just I'm done.
[01:41:30] and seeing what happens, and I'm just not part of Earth anymore. when you think about it?
[01:41:42] If you didn't have an endpoint, and do the huge amount of legwork - No, right?
[01:41:55] 200 years from now, whereas right now you wanna produce exciting things - This is your one chance, the passion and the realness
[01:42:10] That's the great gift that death gives us. to have to your own mortality? and the pursuit of, "I will stay alive
[01:42:23] That worries me, the idea that everyone from here on out, is not environmentally sensible. It's just not a sensible position to take.
[01:42:38] (upbeat music_ of possibilities unfold on planet Earth. What more amazing will be like in say 80, 100
[01:42:53] Wouldn't you like the possibility of finding out? - To understand why some people feel like death one of the world's leading life extension facilities.
[01:43:07] - Great to meet you. I'm meeting Linda Chamberlain, So this facility that we are in right now
[01:43:21] is where you both cryo preserve people and store them. - And we have 1190
[01:43:34] - A member is someone who is alive today. Once they are cryo preserved, they become patients.
[01:43:46] - Okay, tell me about why you use that word. which is like an on off switch. What we are trying to do is to slow down
[01:44:01] - To become a patient at Alcor. First you have to pay between 80 and $200,000, be pronounced clinically dead.
[01:44:16] At that point, Alcor can begin their work. There's a whole body patient or as a neuro
[01:44:29] - It means yes, the cephalon actually, which is all the structures down to about the clavicle. I'm a neuro, everybody in my family,
[01:44:41] Most of the people who really understand The primary reason that people choose whole body - And they're not comfortable with the idea of their body
[01:44:58] So let's say that our patient, is whole body, they go into an ice bath. and its water in there as well.
[01:45:13] they're intubated and their lungs are functioning again being ventilated circulating the cooler temperature. So you need the veins, the arteries, the vasculature,
[01:45:27] continuing to pump and circulate. So basically, they'll go into this specially developed operating table,
[01:45:44] it is going to be circulating nitrogen gas over them And if its whole body patient, and then we begin circulating
[01:45:59] - Once in the operating room, with cooled organ transplant fluid to rapidly cool down the internal
[01:46:11] Now, just before the water within the body tissue Cryo protective fluids are introduced. of ice crystals that could damage soft tissue.
[01:46:26] This is called the vitrification process. So they come in first here-- - Right the surgeons will do the neuro separation first.
[01:46:38] which is all of the structures down to about the clavicle, bring it over here to this operating field.
[01:46:52] the organ transplant solution. essentially their head in here, That looks like I'm sure
[01:47:08] - It really happens. The patients are placed inside bags which are then placed inside cylindrical tanks
[01:47:23] - So this is our patient care bay. - In these tanks. and each one of these four whole bodies and five neuros.
[01:47:43] is where my husband - Right, this is where Fred is at the moment. My mother and my father in law are
[01:47:57] - Wow, it's so weird because I am right now, Alcor is very much like an ambulance
[01:48:10] that a hospital in the future, - They're not being transported (upbeat music)
[01:48:24] I'm going to sit down with Max More, Alcor's CEO and a future neuro patient. to revive cryo preserve specimens?
[01:48:39] it's gonna be decades at least before we can bring back But we already cryo preserved eggs, sperm, all kinds of things.
[01:48:53] Now you move from that to an organ, But we actually did an experiment a few years ago So it would learn that,
[01:49:06] And we cryo preserved them, and then we just waited, that the memory test that the ones So it was the first time in an organism
[01:49:19] So now we're asking, okay, what's the next step? but step by step, the more progress we can make, - Now, when it comes to extending life,
[01:49:32] some questions come up, like should people die? I know we don't like the idea of death, but - Yeah, I think we will lose something
[01:49:45] So I think people, people find themselves Right now we're kind of in this tragic situation your wisdom grows over time,
[01:50:00] and physical health is declining, that's really sucks. so you could live hundreds of years and hopefully more mature, and have more foresight,
[01:50:15] What we'll have is a world of like ultra mature people, And if they say well, Bullshit.
[01:50:29] who live to 90 should be killed off at 45, the longer you live, because you can build the meaningfulness of life, my view.
[01:50:45] I I'm looking for ways to excuse it and accept it. - Well, I have to accept it
[01:51:00] One thing I'm have to stress because every article written And that's not on the table here. in the time when we've beaten aging.
[01:51:14] we're offering an unknown extension of human lifespan. - Okay, so, Elisabeth, welcome back.
[01:51:26] - Pretty heavy stuff. In fact, you were the one who got us that interview.
[01:51:39] - So how did you come into contact with Alcor? - Well, I grew up in near San Francisco in the Bay Area. So I think Alcor has always been in my consciousness,
[01:51:53] I was familiar with the philosophy of it. And I probably have a dozen friends or so who are members. with the couple on the brochure about Alcor.
[01:52:06] - Right. - Yeah, the CEO. - I'm not a member yet, but I intend to be at some point. - It's just the cost right now,
[01:52:21] if I were to die right now, the chance of being cryogenically frozen is pretty low be in a motorbike accident in India or something like that.
[01:52:35] back to the Alcor lab in time. It's weird to talk about this the best way to die, to be cryogenically frozen is to die,
[01:52:48] right there near their facility. who near the end of their life move to the Scottsdale area,
[01:53:00] an Alcor team can be at your deathbed. And this is kind of what makes me feel
[01:53:13] is that the best way for me to be cryo frozen to literally kill me right now. the fluid to cool my body down and kill me by cooling me.
[01:53:31] or at least there will be some, while the law decides whether I'm dead or not,
[01:53:43] And also, I suppose by that logic, when your brain is in the best possible state. all right, I have cognitive decline.
[01:53:58] And it's happening to the tissues in my brain. by an authority, what brain will I have left? They may believe that in the future,
[01:54:14] by just knowing a little bit but I guess all of this brings us to she really was uncomfortable with that idea.
[01:54:28] Non sensible. immortality is pretty nonsensical. that what they're striving for is not immortality.
[01:54:45] And there's many ways that we do that already. We have antibiotics and vaccinations and things like that. is a life extension protocol.
[01:54:59] seems much more sci fi. around the cost, only a certain kind of person to be preserved.
[01:55:18] those from now in history will predominantly be high. And I'm back and now it's the year 8000, and I'm back.
[01:55:31] - Yeah. - Yeah, so is that possibly not gonna represent if only those with the means to extend their life
[01:55:46] - And the other thing that goes along with that are also more likely to want to extend their life, but because they're living a good life.
[01:55:59] it's not about denying death, It's because I actually love life. And the only tragedy is, like you said that I won't,
[01:56:12] I won't be able to keep growing, So people who enjoy life who have the fortune of being able to do all of that naturally want that to continue.
[01:56:28] - Now I get some of the reactions people have like, And we only have a finite amount of resources, I get all of that, I hope that that ceases to be a problem.
[01:56:44] And to think any other way is ridiculous. We need to make sure we can sustain all of those lives
[01:56:57] - And that could take us about overpopulation. I feel like any negative side effects of overpopulation bring back a frozen brain.
[01:57:11] Okay, we should be working on both. I think it's not going to be an issue in the future, problems of overpopulation.
[01:57:23] or else we're not gonna have enough beef for everyone, But assuming that that's fixed, I still feel like there's
[01:57:35] to the idea of extending your life like this. Why do you think that you get to live longer in this? I hate to say artificial because seat belts are artificial,
[01:57:50] so often and quickly. it does feel kind of self indulgent, to be able to say, I get to be one of the few that survived in the future.
[01:58:03] with any new technology, it's always initially only limited to a subset of people who are risk takers, early adopters,
[01:58:15] or sort of long term perspective And just because that's a small set of the population
[01:58:27] that's the first step to making it accessible to everyone. that I think is in the bonus footage,
[01:58:39] but didn't make it into the episode about social progress. 700 year old, super mature people, what if their ideas about the way society is organized,
[01:58:53] doesn't change, and we wind up getting stuck, because the population wants to keep living which, in 600 years might not be the way.
[01:59:10] But if we start having people not die out, It's a weird argument. genocide people when they're old?
[01:59:25] Am I making sense here? I mean, I think that the brain As we get older, people tend to be more conservative,
[01:59:39] But I think by the time we have the technology to, and cryonically free somebody and revive somebody we'll also have age technologies to make the brain
[01:59:54] the aging process in the brain. So it might not actually be an issue anymore. okay so maybe that is true.
[02:00:08] We're still gonna be having children, right. new generations, the generational dynamic Because it won't just be boomers versus millennials.
[02:00:23] - Yeah, there will be like four or five generations There will be 20, And man, we will learn so much.
[02:00:36] I think a lot of that fear you have as you get older about things changing is an evolutionarily designed process therefore, the way I was raised must be good enough.
[02:00:51] So of course natural selection will choose people to change, it doesn't want the kids be too different, but imagine living to be 600 years old,
[02:01:05] that like different kinds of music and things and they're all okay. you'd have after 600 years.
[02:01:18] and look at the decision that I make. (upbeat music) to cryonically freeze an entire person and then revive them?
[02:01:38] I believe that cryo preservation and medical technology that will improve all of our lives.
[02:01:50] want to extend my life indefinitely? Well, on the one hand, obviously, death is a bummer. without me for billions of years.
[02:02:05] that it should never not have me again? Should I be around as long as possible? Or do those who will come later deserve their own world?
[02:02:19] Should I try to extend my life? when my time comes and return all this matter Well I don't think there's a right answer.
[02:02:34] and should be able to make. (upbeat music)
[02:02:46] the mortician to confront my own mortality. I've been surrounded by death lately, spoke to you.
[02:02:58] if we never invented technology to bring people back But they have that hope. And I even had a loved one pass away just two weeks ago,
[02:03:15] - She was cremated, as well as my father. I've never made a clear decision about what should happen to me.
[02:03:30] but I could die at any time. - So I wanna be prepared, and I want my wishes to be known. So I've decided, when that moment comes,
[02:03:43] I wanna give all my atoms and molecules back to the universe, and I've decided that I want to die. - I want to be
[02:03:59] become worm food and plant food But I kind of want a place where people can come to be like,
[02:04:13] - So there's everything from just little discs in the ground where you are, to GPS that locates you to natural cemeteries - So you can have your own Joshua Tree.
[02:04:29] So the first thing I'm gonna give you to give a look over And everybody needs to have one of these. And why it's so important is that it's you,
[02:04:42] as you're dying, right after you die, but also who that person is. - Oh, no, it's about death dying death
[02:04:57] A choice like this is extremely new to humans. upon death were cremation, embalming or rotting away.
[02:05:10] at death's door until the door But I've decided not to do that. (upbeat music)
[02:05:27] - Weirdly, I feel very relaxed and good. but what it really was was death changing. - Thank you.
[02:05:40] the power of death's influence. Max, thank you for the work you are doing And all of you out there,
[02:05:55] All right, Elisabeth, and still believe - You're still happy with that decision?
[02:06:09] And I'm really happy for you to make whatever decision you're you, you own you. I just I don't know,
[02:06:25] the main part was that I just feel like I at this game. being like, well, I'm older than you, so.
[02:06:39] other people's decisions about this. When people talk about immortality,
[02:06:52] there's some sort of costs that comes with it. without some sort of drawback. And all this sort of fantasy and sci fi about it
[02:07:05] it comes with some sort of terrible burden. That's just something that we culturally have created,
[02:07:17] And I that we can extend our lives it probably be, some sort of magic drink that we're gonna live forever.
[02:07:32] of first it's gonna be normal to live 100 years and then 110 years, and 120 years and hundred like that. And, yeah, probably without some kind of crazy
[02:07:46] or freak of nature or something like that. the points that you've made about, like a vampire in that sense of whoo,
[02:08:03] but to strive for immortality is something against God. you could still get hit by a bus Your brains connections are completely lost,
[02:08:17] That's why I think that what Alcor is doing, and extend people's lives is so important. If a drink was invented, that allowed one to stay
[02:08:32] exactly as healthy mentally, and physically as they were that moment they drank it, I wouldn't drink it. I want my song to have a final note.
[02:08:49] kind of like punted down the road. back, before antibiotics, and somebody described to them, antibiotics
[02:09:03] doesn't have to cripple you and kill you. If someone said, okay, you're gonna die like in a week,
[02:09:15] I don't know if I'm just feeling like there is like a right time to die. Like, the way it's sort of been.
[02:09:28] When it's time your family can move on and you've and everyone gets a turn as the leader. And I guess another reason that I haven't done Alcor yet
[02:09:45] that are a little more accessible. the chances of actually being revived are extremely low, - Yeah, what do I lose?
[02:10:01] is getting my stem cells cryonically preserved. called Forever Labs in San Francisco.
[02:10:13] they're gonna extract the stem cells, - So you can use those for therapies or? So say, I have an organ down the line that needs repair.
[02:10:30] that we could use, or maybe they'll develop And then I could use those stem cells, And done some very basic, clinical studies with humans,
[02:10:48] where they've given human stem cells from younger donors. they show more physical fitness, more cognitive sharpness, after the stem cell injection.
[02:11:03] when they receive too much of the stem cells, But that's probably because their immune system which is why there's a benefit in banking your own.
[02:11:18] I think that sounds brilliant, I would love to do it-- and you've got like the freshest best stem cells. They'll be like, when you were a baby,
[02:11:32] So they're still fresh. Well, it seems to me like I should go, when I naturally go. or just what's socially, the right thing to do.
[02:11:49] if the technology were available to everybody, and everybody you knew was living to 100 or 120, I think it would be it would feel more okay.
[02:12:01] Okay, I'm entitled to this new technology, the rest of the world isn't--
[02:12:13] really admirable actually. - The world needs me forever, If I would left the world, oh, that'd be such a tragedy. you're breaking some sort of like,
[02:12:29] agreement that the whole human race has accepted, that we've all sort of mutually agreed But if we all mutually agree something else,
[02:12:45] then it doesn't feel like or is nothing to feel, weird about. I wanna point out, though,
[02:12:58] that he's not selling immortality, that you'll hear from their members, where their consciousness can be recreated in a computer.
[02:13:15] but you could get hit by a bus, but you could, No, but I never will be because I will exist And that I don't wanna do,
[02:13:29] with more of me than it needs. in the area I wanna say yes, I'll do it, like why not?
[02:13:41] where that doesn't feel like me anymore. he was describing people want to preserve their entire body
[02:13:53] as just a head or just a consciousness. So it's just hard to imagine, if I can't experience visceral experience of the world.
[02:14:09] - It's kind of lonely in a weird way - Yeah. - Right, lonely. I guess you could have a robot body.
[02:14:22] really without this input? from some kind of like, Cyborg body that they built you into through the wire right?
[02:14:36] Because you've come up with a way to solve any accident And that's very different than a bring me back when you have a cure for this cognitive problem
[02:14:50] for another like, I don't know, a couple of decades or what? Wow, this is all fascinating, and very important stuff. And without further ado, we're gonna keep bulldozing on
[02:15:06] through here we are with your Brain on Tech, not your brain made out of tech, but your brain on tech. technology isn't just changing our lives.
[02:15:20] Not just how they think, but how they look. can improve your memory for details,
[02:15:32] and can make your brain well certain parts of it bigger. can change our brains in ways that improve our ability
[02:15:46] To find out, we've built a giant maze to test their theories for the first time ever, outside the world of computers. (upbeat music)
[02:16:19] Our brains have been profoundly transformed A lot of the information that I used to have to store in my brain is now stored in my phone,
[02:16:32] what used to be done by this organ, Doing that frees up my brains resources or that technology can't quite do for us yet.
[02:16:48] So while we all don't have implants in our brains, yet, which is why you may find it deeply disturbing to see me do something like this.
[02:17:10] by having enriching experiences, To learn more about this, I came to UC Irvine Stark lab So Dane and Craig, you guys work on learning and memory,
[02:17:27] - So the lab is trying to figure out how memory works, and the temporal lobe - So what does the hippocampus do?
[02:17:42] and really a certain kind of memory. to rapidly form new arbitrary associations definitely needs the hippocampus.
[02:17:56] And we need to be able to remember, I parked my car in this exact spot in the lot. seems to really be helping us out on.
[02:18:11] of chewed bubblegum on the book, is that a hippocampus? - Is this the whole thing? - Yeah, mirror image of it.
[02:18:24] conducted a study to show how video games affect the brain. and split them up into three groups, any video games for two weeks,
[02:18:39] and an experimental group who played Beforehand, they had all the participants on computers to measure their spatial memory.
[02:18:52] And what we found was that the people who played the 3D game whereas the control group and active control group did not. to the experimental groups hippocampus.
[02:19:09] - So what are we gonna be doing to me here? in our past studies, except we're gonna add two new things. to see if we see a change
[02:19:21] at somebody's brain scans And the second thing we're actually gonna do - You're gonna be the rat in a maze.
[02:19:34] The effect of video gaming on spatial memory On a scale this big and comprehensive, a 3600 square foot physical maze,
[02:19:50] in the real world? If so, society will have a whole new way to look at gaming. - Welcome to the MRI center,
[02:20:03] as the before scan to then see what's gonna be happening - Cool, what kind of things are you looking for? and also changes in the connectivity between brain regions.
[02:20:19] with a special emphasis on my all important hippocampus. I had a bunch for this episode.
[02:20:31] - I'm glad to be here. what the heck is a diffusion MRI, I had like five of them. Yeah, interesting. I'm actually not sure why that happened.
[02:20:46] done a few weeks ago. - My lab mate wanted to test his scanning protocol. so I was watching Star Trek
[02:21:00] - That's not bad. - Yeah, yeah. like an MRI, basically how that works, and then diffusion.
[02:21:14] to image various kinds of molecules in your brain. you can pick up on different kinds And what diffusion MRI specifically is doing
[02:21:30] So if you look at a really big white matter tract, that bridge different areas of our brains together.
[02:21:42] - Please, yeah, visual aids. But all this stuff on the inside would be white matter.
[02:21:54] to send a signal to some area over here, - And it's a white because it's myelinated. Which helps the signal transaction.
[02:22:07] we would we would see a more white color - Yeah exactly, it would literally be gray up here, - And so diffusion MRIs
[02:22:19] It has more water content, and there-- So there's water flowing there's not gonna be a consistent direction,
[02:22:34] If you average them out, there's not a single, - Sure, what does the trajectory of water flow mean? - Well, your brain has tons of water in it, right?
[02:22:48] - And water is flowing along these white matter tracks, And so if you are tracking and you can see a consistent sort of vector of water flow
[02:23:00] a white matter tract going this way. like the fact that water went from there to there Or thought means that what the two brain regions
[02:23:15] - No, so that would be what we call a functional scan. - So you're saying diffusion is just structural. - It's an anatomical scan of basically, your connectum.
[02:23:30] - Exactly. - Not why they're connected, It's just physically, diffusion MRI would give me a really great looking map of.
[02:23:46] So what you're missing is a lot of the miniature wires there are lots of microscopic wires
[02:23:58] But what it can do is pick up on the really big wires, Okay, perfect. it's counted in that because we're really looking
[02:24:12] through this diffusion MRI. - So I think that was probably more for the connectivity but it's gonna be talking to other regions
[02:24:25] We're gonna go back to the episode right now. - So this first test is a standard memory test that we do, - This test began by showing me
[02:24:39] I did my best to commit every one of them to memory. is we're gonna test your memory for those objects.
[02:24:53] into the hippocampus that we know is so important - This time, I had to view another series of objects I'd seen previously.
[02:25:06] but not exactly the same. This tested my memory for details, and very slight changes. normally used by rodents.
[02:25:21] a hidden platform in a pool of water. - Oh, man, so glad I'm not a lab rat. I had to find the same invisible underwater platform
[02:25:36] using only the shapes of the mountains as my guide, Ay, that was more difficult than I expected. because we can put them on a computer,
[02:25:50] But we also have a really great opportunity here now and actually get it into the real world. - No, we don't get to do this kind of thing.
[02:26:05] (upbeat music) to have a real world test of memory,
[02:26:20] So this is a big first for us. what you guys have already seen, in the video game can actually physically affect your brain,
[02:26:35] to be better at spatial memory and spatial navigation, - And it's not just gonna be running a maze, And we're gonna be testing your ability
[02:26:49] - And build a mental map of whatever is inside there. learn the maze and learn the objects. - Because the walls were six feet tall,
[02:27:03] My task was to create a spatial memory based entirely on the angles and turns of the white walls and light poles outside of the maze.
[02:27:17] Okay, so I've oriented myself, the entrance is that way, I'm considering this the right side that the left side, that I feel like exist along the outside edge,
[02:27:31] - And time. find out where the objects are. and we'll be timing you and seeing where you go.
[02:27:44] - [Dr. Clemenson] So first object is the bicycle pump, go. (upbeat music) hugging the right most part of pump.
[02:27:58] Now, I guess I do the opposite to get out. Yep, I think I should make this turn. Yes for a pump.
[02:28:11] - Later, Dr. Stark and Dr. Clemenson would evaluate the number of errors I made - [Dr. Stark] And time.
[02:28:25] - Here kitty, kitty kitty. - [Michael] Retracing my steps. - The boot.
[02:28:38] - Water bottle. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)
[02:28:51] No? Okay, maybe it's down here. Oh wait, that's no.
[02:29:03] It was down some sort of a long corridor like this in this area, oh man. but now it felt like my hippocampus was failing me.
[02:29:18] and it was difficult to distinguish the differences I went about, through, got it.
[02:29:31] Got it, that was a little tougher, huh? Now we're gonna make it a little bit more difficult. And that's gonna be from the other side.
[02:29:44] will be an even bigger test of your spatial memory. We're gonna give you a list of four things to get in order. the bottle, the crayon and the boot.
[02:29:57] that's the ball. Got it. But now, I remember which alley to go down.
[02:30:11] Crayon Okay, now I need the boot. But how did I?
[02:30:24] Got them. the basketball and the cat. - [Dr. Clemenson] Good job.
[02:30:37] This experiment could use a control. with daily video game playing Well, luckily for that,
[02:30:50] we've got a nice matched control, guys similar to me. You ready? it was important to have a control group,
[02:31:02] that I did to establish their individual baselines, absolutely no video games for the next 10 days, would be compared against any changes in theirs.
[02:31:17] Next, I began my gaming regimen, since I hadn't played video games in years.
[02:31:29] Now Daniel, on YouTube, I'm known as a pro gamer, right? You know what I mean, you get it.
[02:31:42] what video game was Michael playing during this test? because the makers of the game didn't give us permission
[02:31:54] So we had to replace my screen I don't know outerspace looking stuff, are like, that's not a game.
[02:32:06] I played (laughing) And people made that very clear to me.
[02:32:23] - By people online or? And I play and I'm still kind of learning And then when it was over, people could like comment,
[02:32:38] And like you, I'm gonna flag you for being so bad. I mean the point here wasn't really good at the game so much - Exactly, I did not get good at the game.
[02:32:53] But I did explore 3D spaces I normally wasn't exploring. League of Legends so I don't know. - As established. - As a pro gamer,
[02:33:07] is basically like Mario meets checkers. I didn't get better at the game.
[02:33:20] I really was investigating 3D spaces in a new way every day. - Right, I mean, I guess, if they were testing something like visual working memory, for example,
[02:33:35] Because it's your ability to, or your attention, for example, to learn a new space.
[02:33:49] and explore some new spaces ourselves. is from my house where I used to live. And you'll get to see my kitties, corn and pickle.
[02:34:05] (upbeat music) Technology isn't just affecting the way we remember things. and social circuits of our brains.
[02:34:19] relating to machines than we are to people. roboticist, and MIT Media Lab alum, a miniature robot equipped with a camera
[02:34:34] of unsuspecting pedestrians. what would it be? - [Michael] The majority of people
[02:34:47] that you've never told a stranger before. and to let myself go in a love relationship.
[02:34:59] talking to a machine than a human. I mean, it's often easier to say difficult things Well, what if the person on the other end
[02:35:15] wasn't a friend or a significant other, but was a therapist? allows adult users who pay a weekly fee We believe that therapy should be anonymous.
[02:35:31] Stigma free, simple, affordable and comfortable. they need to be open and honest. not during an appointment or business hours only
[02:35:45] - [Advertiser] Talkspace, therapy for how we live today. Better now that my phone is working?
[02:35:57] for technology to comfort us. We're finding ourselves wanting to comfort technology. This is a ROBOTIS OP2, cute little fella, isn't he?
[02:36:11] Well why? metal and wires and computer chips, We depend on technology and we care about it.
[02:36:26] we empathize with it depends on context. (upbeat music) Recently, my Vsauce was invaded by bugs,
[02:36:38] metal electronic circuitry, they aren't alive, cause them to inspire empathy in humans?
[02:36:50] A 2015 MIT study found that giving a robot movement, tends to increase its anthropomorphic effect, We decided to see this in action.
[02:37:03] - Of course pleasure. a new user friendly technology. and then asked to describe it.
[02:37:17] only I don't know what it does. - It's sort of a rectangle, but the ends are like hexagon, Akrino, what I would like to do now
[02:37:31] there's a magnet that will hold it and I would like for you to take this mallet. Okay, that's cool.
[02:37:44] no resistance to smashing this lifeless object. Many of them even seemed to enjoy it. - Not really, I felt indifferent to it.
[02:37:57] - While these subjects exhibited Look what happened when we gave This is Margaret.
[02:38:10] I just want you to take a moment to watch Margaret. She's really well behaved. - So how would you describe Margaret's personality?
[02:38:25] But I think if I pick her up, she calms down. has already anthropomorphized the object - Could be.
[02:38:39] - [Michael] Do you think Margaret likes you? And maybe when I go like that she doesn't act or all eratic. - He can be a bit of a pistol.
[02:38:54] - Yes, it really depends on who's holding him. Oh, yeah, he's got a lot of energy. - [Michael] Now that you've interacted with Eli a bit more,
[02:39:08] He's scared, he doesn't know what's going on. to smash their bugs? Amy, I'm gonna place Margaret right here.
[02:39:22] And I'd like you to smash it. I don't wanna hurt it. - Just take this mallet and smash Aaron.
[02:39:40] and I'd like for you to smash it. - Chris.
[02:39:52] - [Michael] Please smash Joe. Oh Joe, Joe!
[02:40:10] And how did it feel to smash Aaron? after spending time with him and getting to know him. and doesn't have a mind of its own,
[02:40:25] Because when I put it in my hand, I felt its energy. - I do, I do feel bad about Joe, he's pretty cool. - He's back!
[02:40:40] (laughing) I'm not gonna for humans to become emotionally attached to technology.
[02:40:55] But after my 10 days of video gaming, nice. had affected my spatial memory and my physical brain.
[02:41:07] - Exactly, so we're gonna look at the difference and your test now to see do we see any change? and the Morris water maze task,
[02:41:21] than they had the last time. see how you did, but now, (ubpeat music)
[02:41:36] built a new one to try to be ISO morphic. the same number of choice points, to each one of the objects to try to have a similar maze,
[02:41:53] one, As before I was given five minutes to familiarize myself Now this is where I was before I hugged that wall.
[02:42:09] and stay all the way right, a vase. At this point, it was hard to tell. all the objects hidden here.
[02:42:23] - [Michael] Then my test began. - The rubber duck was way over here. Got a duck.
[02:42:35] - With this maze, I found myself instinctively instead of thinking of the overall geography of the maze, This time I was remembering specific details.
[02:42:48] Literally recalling certain corners, turns - [Dr. Clemenson] Now, blue base. But would this improves my overall performance?
[02:43:03] So we've gotten all the objects. We're gonna go around to the other side of the maze is the blue seahorse, the flashlight,
[02:43:17] (upbeat music) Even though I was working from the opposite entrance, which seemed to serve me well.
[02:43:30] Nice. is the blue vase, the hat, the backpack - So how was it?
[02:43:45] It was about details. I was literally thinking Oh, okay, there's that turn, the gloves the first one, the bonsai even before
[02:43:58] My look alikes were also tested in the new maze. - [Michael] Again, their non gaming condition with my performance measured against theirs.
[02:44:14] - Finally, my brain was scanned once again, Dr. Stark and Dr. Clemenson would analyze the MRI along with all the other data and report their findings.
[02:44:28] - I did there's corn and what's the other one? Pickle's the younger one. We're here to talk about my hippocampus.
[02:44:41] The hippocampus seems to be very involved in spatial memory. And more broadly, what we call short term memory.
[02:44:57] So if for example, you're rehearsing phone number So it's stuff that it's consciously in your head, So if you're thinking about
[02:45:10] that's the hippocampus that store that new information. but like three weeks from now, - Exactly.
[02:45:22] the hippocampus over the course of days and weeks is actually offloading its new memories into your cortex and actually kind of erases
[02:45:37] - How does it decide what to store - Well, it's not so understood, actually.
[02:45:49] what we know is that when you're asleep, So let's say for example, you have some sort of pattern that we know course bonds to your memory,
[02:46:02] firing in the same pattern when you're asleep. explain what dreams might be at least partially? So one worry if, for example, your hippocampus is playing
[02:46:18] your new memories to your cortex is that you might erase And again, this is not well established science. that's emerged largely from modeling work.
[02:46:33] you went to the park with your wife. and there are some similarities there.
[02:46:45] And so one idea is that dreaming could be the reactivation so as to basically keep them from getting overwritten. - It's just a theory, sure, but I like that idea.
[02:46:59] your memory will be affected. you really do need to sleep. what we call consolidated in your cortex.
[02:47:13] because the thing that would be doing the short term But if it's playing your memories to your cortex, what's happening in your cortex.
[02:47:26] - Exactly, so that the direction So normally, it's the cortex getting sensory inputs, But when you're dreaming that information flow
[02:47:40] - Fascinating. because dreaming, it's a pretty hard thing to study So, a lot of this comes from making inferences
[02:47:55] from fMRI scans of people who are asleep. - Just for clarity sake. that dreams might be the hippocampus plane
[02:48:09] - Not cortex playing long term memories back playing old memories to itself - Okay, could be either, right.
[02:48:22] Maybe one of you out there will become to answer all questions about dreams. like, it's probably a tougher nut to crack then.
[02:48:36] - Yeah. - Do you imagine someday being like, And people be like, Wow, that's so crazy--
[02:48:49] that people used to think of as mystical. which isn't totally related to this is epilepsy. Whereas now we're like, how do people ever think that?
[02:49:02] Are you ready? - Let's do it. - Here we go. Yeah, actually, no, I don't know.
[02:49:18] I'm anxious to see what your results are. And it's important to know that in our control tests, But your memory got better.
[02:49:34] 10 points is actually 20 years worth - Oh, wow, that's about what you might see but they might go down by 10 point.
[02:49:48] of the water maze task, the second time that you did it. that I was using better strategies.
[02:50:01] - We also had the real maze, as you know we made two mazes. more difficult than the first maze, if we took a look at things like how quickly
[02:50:15] and we looked at the control subject performance, So on all of them, they actually got a little bit slower We took a look at your performance, you didn't get slower,
[02:50:30] - [Michael] Really. so they don't improve, and you did. had a small number of subjects,
[02:50:43] with our virtual maze, study with 70 test subjects. - Inside your brain, it's a little tougher to really tell, is going to be small.
[02:50:59] because then it would have to be pushing something else out. So it's just not going to be a large change. is actually in the shape of the hippocampus,
[02:51:12] on both sides that appeared to have changed shape from day one before gaming to day 10, after gaming. my brain is still changing,
[02:51:27] Exercise it more, So I'm not just stuck with what I have now, today. - I mean, in all of this, I think that the big takeaway
[02:51:41] is that doing things, giving your brain something to learn, this is what we think is actually keeping your brain sharp. (upbeat music)
[02:52:01] - As our relationship with technology becomes ever stronger, will offloading memory and computing Will our empathy for machines have negative consequences
[02:52:18] Well, let's look back to another time, to fundamentally change our brains. the Greek philosopher Socrates worried
[02:52:32] would have a negative impact on people's minds. create forgetfulness, they will trust the external written characters
[02:52:47] Socrates was right. But it's also one of the cornerstones One of the defining characteristics of being human
[02:53:03] And this is not the boundary of my mind. And as always, thanks for watching.
[02:53:16] Episode is over, how do you feel? I liked what we covered about the hippocampus that the hippocampus is not just short term memory,
[02:53:31] but also spatial memory and spatial navigation - Whoo, right. - Yeah, yeah.
[02:53:43] I've written plenty of fanfiction about that show. into I think he calls it his memory palace, right? from this very ancient memorization technique,
[02:53:59] that's actually it's been used since ancient Greece, And the reason it works. you imagine some two dimensional three dimensional space
[02:54:15] and you place an object to be remembered So for example, let's say you walk into the kitchen. and you go into your bedroom.
[02:54:29] And the reason this works is because your hippocampus is very spatial, it organizes information spatially. And this actually has an impact on our cognition.
[02:54:41] So it's also involved in, for example, our sense of time, So do you ever like walk into a new room - That's because of your hippocampus,
[02:54:54] and certain memories to the room you're in before, and that context isn't attached to this memory.
[02:55:07] Because it's always kind of you realize that you don't know Then you're like, all right, new place, with the last place, didn't we shoot, why am I here?
[02:55:23] showing that this can warp your sense of time. back when I was an undergrad, they encode our sense of the passage of time,
[02:55:38] And so if you constantly switch context, of things you're thinking about, - Huh, interesting.
[02:55:53] by even having someone walk into a new room, - Right, and so they will think that it's been longer. So your memory of time passing
[02:56:06] of time passing. this is so boring, later on. because I've got so few memories from there.
[02:56:18] in season one episode one of Mind Field. I have like, no memories from those three days, I just stared at white walls all day.
[02:56:30] when you were in there? There's this whole soliloquy I gave halfway through, But it was something like, wow,
[02:56:45] every moment is the same. I wonder if this is how a bug feels that you just exist, And so death isn't scary.
[02:56:58] - I know, I know but I'm just thinking, Like if it exists, and it might not plan for the future much it did that other thing in the past.
[02:57:13] But yeah, because I have no memories from that. But if I look at what I've done in the last three days, it feels like that's so much time passed
[02:57:29] So we actually did, this wasn't the hippocampus, called the internal cortex, which is kind of the, the part of the cortex
[02:57:43] So we looked at how activity there predicts And so what we did is we put people in the scanner, And after they left the scanner,
[02:57:58] and we asked them how much time do remember And what we found was the more activity changed the more time they remembered passing between those two.
[02:58:13] there was more stuff changing in their head, in that period. the memory of time passing, dreams, what do you say YouTube?
[02:58:29] - All about them, I would love to do a themed season. or every episode is about the hippocampus. But there's a lot of cool stuff out there.
[02:58:42] Thanks for joining-- - Always fun to be here. - That concludes our Mind Field marathon, for now. So many incredibly talented people worked on this show.
[02:58:58] I'm so grateful to their intelligence and their knowledge If you haven't seen every episode of Mind Field yet, Right now they are free to view all around the world.
[02:59:12] check them all out, I recommend all of them. A wonderful field. Any who, you know the name of the show, go check it out.
[02:59:27] (upbeat music) I hope you had as much fun as I did.
[02:59:40] this remote I was using the whole time. Hollywood magic, everything is smoke and mirrors except Mind Field, it's a very serious show
[02:59:55] you don't have to do too much, for season one, here for season two. Have fun and as always, thanks for watching.