[00:04] was the Stanford Prison Experiment. They tend to focus on how unethical it was,
[00:17] and are less critical of its supposed conclusion. Palo Alto, California. Twelve young men are rounded up from their homes by police,
[00:29] in the basement of Stanford University. led by Stanford psychology professor Dr. Philip Zimbardo.
[00:41] 12 guards and 12 prisoners. recreating life in a correctional facility.
[00:54] The prisoners are booked and stripped nude. forced to wear smocks, stocking caps and shackles. Identified only by their prisoner numbers.
[01:13] Given anonymity by their mirrored sunglasses, restrict prisoners' bathroom use. so do their cruel methods.
[01:36] conditions are so bad [man] The study makes international headlines.
[01:51] and his conclusions are taught to students worldwide, and are even submitted to Congress The study brings up a question
[02:04] is evil caused by the environment, Zimbardo's shocking conclusion and have power over depersonalized others,
[02:18] And it occurs more often than we'd like to admit. during the Stanford Prison Experiment, wasn't what we've always been told?
[02:53] has always had its controversies. have pushed it back into the spotlight Today, I'm going to speak with journalist Ben Blum,
[03:05] of the experiment to a larger audience How did you get involved in the Stanford Prison Experiment Well, my involvement was quite personal.
[03:18] the basic lesson of the experiment And then my cousin Alex was arrested for bank robbery. This was a team of mostly military guys with AK-47s.
[03:33] He was a 19-year-old U.S. Army Ranger. that organized and led the bank robbery. He was just so brainwashed in this intense Ranger training
[03:49] that when a superior proposed this bank robbery, he took it as just one more kind of tactical thought experiment. in his legal defense.
[04:04] Zimbardo submits a letter to the court, that Alex, my cousin, had been so transformed by the social environment of the Ranger battalion
[04:18] without exercising his own free will. He received an extraordinarily lenient sentence of 16 months.
[04:30] So Zimbardo was a family hero. you know what, I knew this was a bank robbery by the end, Alex, myself and our whole family
[04:46] came to view the Zimbardo argument as a way to shirk personal culpability, and to put all the blame on the situation.
[04:59] at the Stanford Prison Experiment in particular. as well as some of those who participated. I learned, to my deep surprise,
[05:13] had stories of their experience that completely contradicted Which is, look, these regular people,
[05:25] and because of the situation, became evil. Zimbardo has claimed that the guards and then the kind of hidden wellspring of sadism
[05:39] unfolded organically. [Zimbardo]
[05:54] They had been told quite explicitly That falls under the heading of what psychologists call Experimental subjects tend to be motivated
[06:09] [Michael]  Demand characteristics occur act differently than they normally would and feel that a certain kind of behavior is being demanded.
[06:25] who wasn't being tough enough.
[06:58] from the Stanford Prison Experiment they'll do it if you tell them I think the study stands still as a fascinating spur
[07:16] as a demonstration that should make anyone curious in such a short time. but it might need to be reinterpreted.
[07:31] than the one that we've been telling for so many decades. The flaws in the experiment call into question large portions of the narrative
[07:45] So I want to hear from someone who was actually there.
[07:59] agreed to tell me his side of the story. You're a living, walking piece of psychology history.
[08:11] although I still get some hate mail. Well, what do you say to them when they react that way? I say, well, there's probably a lot about that
[08:24] Well, Dave, before we go too far, so we can kind of talk about what we see.
[08:36] So how did you get involved with a Stanford Prison Experiment? and I was home for summer, looking for a summer job.
[08:49] $15 a day. The way it was introduced to the guards, we were never led to believe
[09:03] We were led to believe that our job that they were the ones the researchers are really studying.
[09:17] And we all knew they were filming. commenting on the action from the other side of the wall. Here. Make sure you get a close-up of that."
[09:30] Okay? So if they want to show that prison is a bad experience, Didn't you feel bad? but 18-year-old boys are not the most sensitive creatures.
[09:45] the worst guard I could possibly be. -And it's pretty serious. -Mm-hmm.
[09:57] This is my favorite part of all the footage we have It's you and a prisoner confronting each other I remember the guy saying, "I hate you, man."
[10:10] -Yeah. -"I hate you."
[10:38] Each day I said, well, what can we do to ramp up Why did you want to ramp things up? I was helping the researchers with some better understanding
[10:55] it was personally interesting to me. You know, I cannot say that I did not enjoy what I was doing. Maybe, you know, having so much power
[11:08] you know, maybe you kind of get off on that a little bit. You weren't entirely following a script from a director. But you also felt like
[11:23] -Yes. -And you gave that to him. I was going to do a better job than anybody there But does that excuse me from what I was doing?
[11:36] So the question is, was there a point where I stopped acting and I started living, so to speak?
[11:49] The standard narrative is that Dave Eshelman did what he did it's easier than we think for abuse to happen. but how predisposed to aggression was Dave?
[12:03] a "prison study," after all. and helped the experiment, may have affected his behavior.
[12:16] in the absence of outside influence, can anonymity, power, and depersonalization alone I'd like to design
[12:29] So I'm meeting with Dr. Jared Bartels about the Stanford Prison Experiment I would love to do the Stanford Prison Experiment again.
[12:46] but still find the same conclusions. It's important. It's interesting. is eliminate as best as possible the demand characteristics
[13:01] Why do we even need to call one group "guards" Oh, I'm a guard? The cover story is really important,
[13:16] and you want to hide the true purpose of the experiment. and personality traits. asked for participants for a study of prison life.
[13:31] that were more kind of disposed to aggression. -"I want to be a part of that." -Exactly. of kind of authoritarian-minded individuals together,
[13:47] an authoritarian regime and environment. of the individuals. to be as evil as they can?
[14:04] that were assumed to be influential You have to have the depersonalization. You have to have some power differences.
[14:19] in just a number of hours? there wasn't anything dramatic that happened when the guards started to assert their authority.
[14:35] That came about because of prisoners testing [Michael] Yeah, and that led to fear. That, like, wait a second, these prisoners need to be
[14:47] So I think you still need that provocation. Something that's going to increase Right. All right, so, Jared,
[15:01] brainstorming a new design -Absolutely. -Awesome.
[15:15] to begin the planning process. Will a person, without any expectations or pushes in a certain direction still be abusive or not?
[15:28] we want to eliminate all outside variables of the Stanford Prison Experiment. Subjects need to believe that no matter how they behave,
[15:42] This is where people will be coming in in the morning. That's important, because we don't want them to ever meet their teammates face-to-face.
[15:55] by providing mirrored sunglasses and uniforms. Our study will take place in a room that is pitch-black. [Michael] Ah. I would love to see how dark
[16:10] -You ready? -I'm ready. [Michael] This is uncomfortable. thanks to infrared cameras.
[16:24] The second element is depersonalization. they will only be identified by number, not name.
[16:37] we don't want our subjects to know what we're studying. All they'll be told is that we are studying how they solve puzzles in the dark.
[16:52] -who is also solving a puzzle. -Okay. suggest certain expected behaviors, and will simply give our participants an unseen,
[17:07] We will measure the cruelty predicted by giving our participants What I'm going to show you next is the system
[17:21] We've armed the teams with a "distractor button" jarring noise into the other team's room.
[17:33] and they'll be told that anything below a 7 And each person has their own control. -You can't see what they're doing. -Okay.
[17:48] as well as the frequency with which they push the button, the participants become in this situation. Well, I'll give you a demonstration.
[18:03] Hey, Derek, could you play level 3 for me? So that's a 3. Perfect.
[18:16] or a member of their team pushes a distractor button, will be determined by the highest level selected This is to increase the feeling of diffused responsibility.
[18:30] take advantage of these factors and act sadistically? to actually be harmed in our experiments, Instead, Jared and I will be the ones
[18:46] at a safe level, no higher than a 3. we selected participants We screened our participants
[19:00] "The Personality Assessment Inventory," like honesty and conscientiousness. But it's pitch-dark.
[19:15] Thank you, and once I leave the room you may begin. Okay, here we go. [man 2]
[19:29] [man 1]
[19:41] of the control panel at this point. [man 1]
[19:55] [man 2] [laughter] We picked people who were most likely
[20:10] [man 1] [woman]
[20:25] [woman] [all] -[high-pitched squeal] -[woman] Did somebody do it already?
[20:38] -We should retaliate. -Yeah, retaliate now. [loud, discordant horn] [all laugh]
[20:53] [horn blares] against that most recent buzz.
[21:09] Shall we try again? [loud, discordant horn] this team doesn't appear to be turning evil.
[21:22] Just ignore it and keep working together. They're not interested in retaliating. [discordant horn blares]
[21:37] we blasted them with noise 23 times. and never above a level 5.
[21:51] Puzzle pieces down. that encouraged them to act aggressively?
[22:03] Although the other team your team will not. Your only task is to operate the distractors.
[22:15] without their knowledge. You will not hear any sounds if they buzz back at you. where there's a little bit of power differential.
[22:27] [Michael]  By now saying that the buzzer is their "task," Similar to how instructing prison guards may have encouraged more use of force.
[22:42] [woman] Even though they were given instructions just started chatting with one another.
[22:55] No. Oh. Okay. [woman]
[23:08] [high-pitched squeal] this group only pushed the button three times. in blasting the other team?
[23:23] with that predisposition, right? who shouldn't be interested in retaliating. on what we were actually studying.
[23:37] Here I am. I'm Michael, and this is Jared. There are no other people. There was never another team doing anything.
[23:52] This is a study related to the Stanford Prison Experiment. The standard narrative we hear about that experiment So, yeah, we're trying to see if we get the nicest people we can,
[24:08] and the ability to be cruel, but never encourage them to, Did you have any suspicions about what we were studying
[24:22] or what was going on? that what we're really looking at
[24:36] That's really what we're looking at. who, like the first group, were screened to be individuals Anything up to 7 should be safe.
[24:54] you can go ahead and get started. [laughs]
[25:12] [high-pitched squeal] Yeah. [high-pitched squeal]
[25:27] [discordant horn blares] Okay, here comes number two. Number two is still at a volume 3.
[25:44] Let's see what will happen if we continue buzzing them. Derek, let's blast them again. Number 3. Okay, let's...
[26:00] But she's not touching the dial. [Jared] She's not. [loud, discordant horn]
[26:13] [woman 2] It's just annoying. [blaring horn]
[26:27] [high-pitched squeal] [all laugh]
[26:40] was really the only one hitting the distractor button, So we decided to see what would happen [man 1]
[26:56] and we have not blasted them with the noise, and they haven't played one either. they would never touch the distractor button.
[27:12] In the end, we buzzed this group a total of 44 times, 37 of which came from number two All right, guys. Puzzle pieces down.
[27:31] to make this group sadistic. [woman 1] -Oh, she... -[high-pitch squeal]
[27:46] -Wow. -Yeah, she's-- She's going nuts. At a 7.
[27:59] That might explain why she was just going nuts on the button, Okay, they're all pushing the button a lot more. that it was their only task.
[28:19] [all laugh] Just like in the Stanford Prison Experiment. that they have a certain task to do, they'll do it,
[28:32] The thing is, they never hit upon what we really cared about, Yeah. [Michael] Hello, everyone. I'm going to turn the lights on in this room.
[28:46] -And slowly... -Ah, it hurts. So, hello. I'll give you time to adjust your eyes.
[29:00] Today, you've been part of a study where all we wanted and gave them that feeling of anonymity if I crank my dial up really high,
[29:12] So you have this opportunity to be cruel. Like, when the other person was pressing-- Sure, but that's-- that's just in-kind retribution.
[29:25] As it turns out, so far, everyone stays in that "below 7 or under" range. trying to ramp up the demand characteristics.
[29:38] And I believe number one, right, you did say at one point, So I loved that phrase, because it says but I'm doing it because I believe it was expected of me."
[29:51] Jared and I sat down to discuss our results. We brought in people who had very different personalities We put them in a situation that did not demand things from them.
[30:07] I think we have some intriguing support for the idea that it's more than just the situation.
[30:19] We really saw personality kind of shine through. -of where that line is... -Yeah. None of them did.
[30:34] Dr. Philip Zimbardo, "How to Make a Hero." For years, Dr. Zimbardo has responded to criticisms
[30:48] always maintaining that they aren't valid. of demands from authority, I then told him about the study we ran to get his reaction.
[31:02] I wanted to know what the sufficient conditions might be And we struggled to get that to happen. Just giving them anonymity, and a dehumanized other,
[31:20] Well, I mean, maybe the problem was, who were extremely conscientious, by selecting people who are high on compassion,
[31:34] you broke the power of the situation. we had, I presume, We gave them six personality scales.
[31:50] who were mostly in the mid-range. some people behave cruelly, evilly. Not everybody, but more of the guards than not.
[32:04] So, again, I think that your study is a demonstration -Ah.  -Where the personalities are-- The personalities are special.
[32:21] the disposition, the personality, No, that's the big-- Where is, you know, how much of one
[32:35] Right. played little role in his subject's behavior. that what happened was what was asked for.
[32:52] then the Stanford Prison Experiment, like the classic Milgram study, still has an important lesson. if an authority figure suggests that doing so
[33:04] In our test, we made sure that such influences didn't exist. Personality rose above the situation.
[33:18] if we want to improve conditions where power is involved. And look, questioning methods and interpretations It's how we improve our confidence in what we know.
[33:34] So stay curious, never stop asking questions, and, as always, thanks for watching.
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