[00:00] I've spent over 17 years negotiating with some of the world's most hostile regimes on behalf of families in the United States. This is everything I'm authorized to tell you.
[00:15] are actually not as rare as people think they are. that are wrongfully detained or taken hostage. There are typically tens or even hundreds more that are in grave situations.
[00:31] Time is the worst enemy for the prisoners themselves. or a violent act in the prison can take place. And I've been in this long enough to have experience of those.
[00:50] are extremely sophisticated, I meet with them on a negotiation mission. And sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
[01:05] They knew exactly what I was going to do. several steps ahead of me on the play, and they're moving at their pace in the direction that they wanted.
[01:19] In terms of the negotiations and diplomacy, they're old school. They would step into a meeting and they would know who we are. and they'll be prepared with what they want.
[01:36] When we first reached out to the Russians, when Paul Whelan was taken before we talk about releases, let's talk about a humanitarian gesture.
[01:48] Get him a medical exam out of the prison. And the ambassador looked at us like, well, it's funny you're coming. Complaining about the humanitarian and lack of medical
[02:03] When we have this Russian prisoner. and he's been begging to see a dentist. And he hasn't been able to see one for all this time.
[02:17] And maybe by proving to you that we can get him the attention. And the ambassador would say, well, we believe in reciprocity.
[02:30] But he had printed in advance government for the dentist. He had it printed before.
[02:44] He had it played out and and that was my first encounter with him. And I've learned from that.
[02:59] in these negotiations is to really assess, It's easier when it's a leader because there's a lot of material out there. or a mid-level official.
[03:17] It's repeated engagements. Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico used to joke around One, you only need to convince one person you don't need like a democracy.
[03:32] And second, they stick around for a long time. I try to avoid reading what other people say about an individual.
[03:46] I try to listen primary material speeches, interviews. Sometimes the content matters less than the tone I know I can't bluff.
[03:59] I actually lead with my vulnerability. and a leader or somebody to say, oh, no, but I'm genuine. It comes very clearly from the stories you share and the way you speak.
[04:14] I would never go and sit in front of a captor and say, the man you're holding is innocent. and I try to find ways in which I want to bring the person home.
[04:29] I'm not there to win a punching game. It is never a one time game. You would think, oh yeah, I got the person now.
[04:45] Or next year there'll be another one. And so it's always important in every negotiation, even if you can squeeze more to the extent that you know that your counterpart appreciates it
[05:00] because they know when you have leverage and when and you know when they do. And if you maximize on your negotiations at a certain moment, guess what? they will squeeze the living hell out of you.
[05:14] Which is why President Trump is doing relatively well with the bullies of the world. He knows how to communicate, he knows how to talk, and he gets what he wants.
[05:26] But that's beside the point. The Biden administration worked really well with our allies, who are not bullies, but did poorly with the bullies of the world.
[05:45] There are the government officials who negotiate on behalf of the government, and they are what we refer to as third parties, which includes myself.
[05:58] We actually do not receive funds from any government, even foreign government. We work on behalf of the families of those who are being taken. We raise our money, in from donations
[06:14] Sometimes when Americans are taken at the beginning, nobody knows who has them and why. how to how to locate them.
[06:28] Because we're private, we're able to throw in quick money in order to buy data services to help triangulate and find somebody. so they know, because the fastest we know who has somebody
[06:42] When we actually negotiate with captors, when we're in these countries, it's Civil society is not independent. that we indeed don't work for the government.
[06:59] That's that's illegal in the United States. When the governments deal with these things.
[07:11] Will we make concessions? and we can take them back after we get our people home as well. Because the people that you make the deal with are not exactly reputable people.
[07:26] Most of the time, in the case of the release of Americans out of Iran, there was a big part of it that was very criticized a few years ago, that there was a huge amount of money of Iranian frozen assets
[07:38] that were held in South Korea that were unfrozen following that deal. You you bought their freedom. Easy to punch politically, but
[07:53] The money was not American money wasn't taxed American taxpayers money. It's Iranian money that was frozen under American orders in South Korea.
[08:05] it was money that the South Koreans were not going to be able to keep holding The Iranians sued on this, and we knew that there's going to be released.
[08:18] You can argue that we just the United States actually used money that was going to be released anyway as leverage in order to get Americans home. There will be an American that needs to come home,
[08:31] And it will appear that nothing was given in return. But the host country gets an aid package a few months later. Now people can claim cynically and say, oh, look at that.
[08:45] It's like, yeah, but is it the ransom if it actually is paid to do good in the country and help a society?
[09:00] This comes to them out of left field. might be the decision that will get the freedom gained, the freedom of their loved one,
[09:15] or will cost them a month, a year of their lives. is unbearable. The first call that they make is either to the Department of State
[09:31] The representatives at this point know enough. okay, here are the entities in the government that you need to reach. at the State Department, or there's a hostage recovery fusion cell at the FBI.
[09:49] of government that you might want to start reaching out to. Sometimes we're able to collaborate with the US government.
[10:01] A lot of Americans, when they hear those stories every now and then in the news, And truth is, in some cases, they have done
[10:13] something wrong that puts them into the system. They get treated differently because they're Americans. And so you will get on on tiny little violations
[10:27] for example, you end up with eight and a half years in prison. Once we accept the case, we come up with
[10:39] We think that somebody can come home. Building a strategy based on that, theory of return creating the narrative in the US media if needed, and engaging with the U.S.
[10:56] the pieces come together, that brings the American back home. is to tell a family, don't say anything. the price, for your loved one.
[11:14] By the time the captive government or the captors have the individual, they know exactly who they have and they know exactly how important it can be or not be and how to play that.
[11:27] The captors don't care about what the family says. So all media engagement by families is directed at one audience, and that is the White House.
[11:40] By creating a groundswell of support publicly A big part of our work is also to maintain and grow
[11:53] And those relationships are always complex. A they change in politics. Is it a Republican administration? The people change inside the administration all the time.
[12:08] and we know when there is because we work it. That's when you put the actual pressure in saying, okay, decision time. And sometimes we would go to to our government and say, look, there is a deal.
[12:24] Now we're going to give you a month to do it and we will sit in the back on this and not and not say anything. But if you don't do it in a month, remember, we don't work for you.
[12:38] And America will need to know that there's a very reasonable deal here you're keeping an American in prison because of that. exposure.
[12:57] case, unique was her stature. At that point when she was taking, she was the highest profile political prisoner hostage, however, you want to call it, that has been taken.
[13:10] Even though I know the story publicly that has been out She didn't. And so that was much more of an entrapment.
[13:24] The average time it takes for somebody to come home is about two and a half years. We had some successes of much shorter time, and recently it's been getting shorter. But with Brittney,
[13:39] that this might play out much, much faster. Brittney got a lot of hate and balancing that was very difficult because we would get, you know, Governor Richardson was a public figure,
[13:54] as, as was publicly known that when negotiating and working on this. forget about that basketball player, make sure you bring Paul Whelan home.
[14:06] We're working on bringing them both home. And you can imagine how hard it is for her family to hear as well. Brittney Griner, her agent, Lindsay Colas, they knew how to build up
[14:21] But they only unleashed them when the time was right, Brittney also elevated this whole field in a way that we never had before,
[14:36] and she continued to do that after she returned, she knew she was going to meet the president at the White House
[14:49] She would send a note to her agent to me Give me two talking points that can help a family in need right now.
[15:03] And I can tell you, at least in one case, she had made the president pay attention to a case that we couldn't get his attention on that resolved in the person coming home.
[15:17] Viktor Bout, who was an arms dealer, that was a tough one from the justice perspective, an innocent basketball player for an arms dealer who was responsible for the death of a lot of people.
[15:31] It's not just before there was Brittney Griner and before there was Trevor Reed. The Russians suggested to us at some point that they'll give us Paul Whelan back. Yeah, we can go to the white House and say, yeah, release Viktor
[15:46] But we we won't win on that one. We can convince ourselves the deals never get better in time.
[15:59] Or if we're lucky, they don't change. So when Viktor Bout was a nonstarter for the United States in return for Paul Whelan
[16:12] We traded him for Brittney Griner. The deal got worse.
[16:25] from Detroit, and he was working in Myanmar. They found that a publication that he used to work for He was held in Myanmar for a total of six months from May
[16:41] The charges against him were not justified. In order for his for his return. It was much more of a personal, relationship that we built
[16:55] with the leader of the general between Governor Richardson and him. That ended up as a personal favor and a gesture to the governor to let him out. It took us two trips over there in the middle of the pandemic.
[17:07] Danny's arrest is a great example of how a lot of these cases It wasn't a targeted arrest. He wasn't anybody of importance.
[17:21] They started finding things of him criticizing the military. And under military rule that you can apply as violations of the law. And then, of course, added the fact that the United States government
[17:36] And that was a way of forcing engagement in trying to get Danny Fenster home. Interestingly enough, the one of the biggest obstacles for us
[17:48] We knew that the way to get Danny home is for us to go physically to Myanmar, meet with the leader and convince him to let Danny go.
[18:01] until we managed to get the invitation And then the State Department turned on us and they said, please don't go. So of course, we didn't go because the last thing we want to do is
[18:19] So, you know, it's fine for the government. And so eventually we had a conversation between the governor, myself,
[18:32] where the governor reminded her where private citizens were going. But you have it wrong. But she also made the request from us
[18:46] Governor Richardson's response was, we will not raise Danny Fenster And then he he looked at me and he says, Mickey, remember,
[18:58] We work for the family. me a mandate from the family to go on that trip. And I called Brian Fenster, who's Danny's brother, who was my point
[19:10] if we have an opportunity to bring Danny home, And I was laughing, and he was laughing. See if you can bring him home, please don't leave him behind
[19:26] If we had an opportunity to bring him home, we were to raise it And that's what we did.
[19:40] in that new age of hostage diplomacy or prisoner diplomacy between the U.S. Many things about his case were unclear when we looked into it. And when Elizabeth Whelan, Paul's sister, reached out and we talked about to us,
[19:56] it was very clear, especially we engaged with the Russians. If the captors are asking for something from the U.S. government, then it doesn't matter what the person did or did not do.
[20:08] There are political prisoner at that point with every single, And Paul Whelan, it felt like government decisions let him stay behind
[20:23] That's what Viktor Bout. We laughed at of this and said, oh, Konstantin Yaroshenko for Paul Whelan, that was caught in West Africa and was extradited to the U.S..
[20:37] did not. Then they took Trevor Reed, the Russians. And then when we went to negotiate with them, Trevor Reed was sick.
[20:49] We thought it was an infection in a Russian prison during the pandemic. We came back from Russia with a proposal to do two for two, government decided to do only Trevor Reed for Konstantin Yaroshenko.
[21:05] So the same guy that that could have been released for Paul Whelan And Poland stayed behind. Brittney Griner.
[21:17] It was two for two from the Russians, Viktor Bout and Vinnik And we brought that back. And this time we didn't want to hear about a one for one, because we couldn't
[21:30] And we conveyed that to the white House. Somehow they couldn't communicate in the formal channel with the Russians
[21:42] And time was was ticking and they realized, well, we can get Brittney Griner, for Viktor Bout, and then we'll do Paul Whelan after.
[21:54] And that was extremely painful for the Williams family. And it took a long time after The uniqueness of Paul was that
[22:10] he was left behind, in my count, at least four times. The deal that brought Paul Whelan back home was lots of moving parts, I know people like to criticize the work that we do and the deals that we make
[22:22] as saying, oh, if you negotiate, you incentivize taking more Americans. Well, Russia is a great example of when you refuse to negotiate. You also increase the motivation to take more Americans.
[22:39] 3 to 5 new cases, average every week that come to us with families but we need to do our own due diligence, because there's a lot of cases
[22:51] and we're not in the business of getting criminals out of out of prison. The first one is an American that did nothing wrong but was entrapped
[23:05] in order to solicit something as a concession from the U.S. Number two are the cases of Americans that have done something wrong. doing the same crime.
[23:19] The third category, is one in which Americans actually did something wrong in a country, or that we cannot argue that they didn't. to a local that would have done the same thing.
[23:33] and their physical well-being is at high risk. but there are still people that we will try and help
[23:45] because their terms of, of being held are subhuman or far away from the US standard of what an American should be treated like. It is true that we need to come up with the policies
[24:00] But it is morally corrupt to try and do those that deterrence on the backs of Americans that are being held already.
[24:18] when people think about hostage negotiations, especially, internationally, there is an immediate reaction or they're holding Americans already.
[24:30] It's risky and it's true, and there is a risk to it. but we only go to these countries at the invitation of leadership, And for that, government, the government that holds the Americans,
[24:48] that invites us to come over, we're actually an asset for them either they don't communicate with the US at all And we're a channel.
[25:01] So they're not incentivized to take us more completely out their message. but the the motivation is one in which we're assets of them. There are countries and situations where we would decide not to go.
[25:19] when we negotiate with the Russians or meet with the Russians, The countries that I can't go because of my place of birth, from Israel.
[25:32] it's not that it's not risky, of us being detained, but if we're responsible, we can mitigate that risk to some extent.
[25:44] A lot of the countries that I travel to are would be considered for, Russia, especially since the war started, Venezuela,
[25:57] Myanmar, North Korea, all of these Sudan. When I think of going on a mission and you have to assume that something bad might happen, and when you play that out in your head in advance and you say, okay,
[26:12] if something bad happens, the seconds before I either get arrested or my head gets cut off, do I know who's doing it and why? and why, then I can mitigate the risk.
[26:30] then I can't go. I cannot go to Iran, because in Iran, even if the president invites us
[26:42] the borders. There is a Revolutionary Guard that answers to somebody else. you don't know who's doing it to you and why.
[26:56] And if you don't have an answer to that, to those questions, you can't mitigate it. So when I negotiate with the Iranians, we do that in a third country. I don't necessarily go with a sign,
[27:11] any leadership or any officers or foreign country before they meet. They do their homework so they know and, you know, and I do have some public, profile of things when I travel to,
[27:26] I had my friends ask me, like, aren't you scared? And I laughed and I said, you know, actually, North Korea was one of the places that I actually felt most comfortable with traveling
[27:41] not because I was Israeli or Jewish. when the person comes home often,
[27:57] I never meet the prisoner. But the prison never knows who did what for them. There are elements that we don't do.
[28:12] For example, while the families handling the case where the loved one is home, there's multiple issues and and things that they need to handle. Sometimes, the person being held is the one
[28:24] They need psychological help. They need legal help. Then they also help the prisoner when they come home.
[28:38] There is a lot of elements of of this work that is that is very emotionally taxing. early in the pandemic, before the before the vaccines. We just had to because there was negotiations
[28:54] The pandemic added a risk factor for all of our prisoners over there, and my wife and I had a huge argument over this. we had our our masks and everything, but she was right about the risk.
[29:09] So the unpredictability of the work, the danger that is involved in this, as you can imagine, is it takes a huge toll on the family. this is the best I can in every given moment.
[29:23] There are moments where when my daughter asks me, why do I have to do this? from early, from very early age, when I started talking to her about my work when she was four, she has met many of the families.
[29:39] And she understands a big part of this work is the conversations And the same way that I deploy empathy towards the captors or our own government
[29:55] I deploy empathy with the families. So after a family call or before a mission, you know what the stakes are.
[30:11] And I found and this is just of recent years, that helps me regulate my emotions.
[30:23] You know, when when people see, comments on people who are running long, this is to say, oh, you know, they must be running from something like. That's exactly right.
[30:39] I know that negotiations are a repeat game, I need to maintain those relationships. I'm genuine because, again, I can't bluff.
[30:52] I don't I don't have a lying face of late. We have seen that the taking of Americans by foreign governments They used to have a case against them.
[31:06] It used to be important to present this person did X and put a trial of late. There's no charges really pending trial. All these things because it's so clearly now a transactional thing.
[31:22] is also dealing with it. the response to us will be transactional as well. I hope it's going to start winding down in numbers.
[31:38] And I think that the massive return that we've seen since January of Americans, And I hope that we will also see a decrease in the number of Americans
[31:50] that are being taken, I think hostage taking or political prisoner taking, It runs certain waves in certain countries, historically speaking, it's it's been a a tool of diplomacy by certain countries for decades.
[32:06] Iran has always been using that as a diplomatic tool for them. But there was a period around 2013, 2015 in the United States because of ISIS, because they took Americans.
[32:22] There were no negotiations over there since then, we have seen since the demise of ISIS or their their downfall for at least for now, hopefully forever. more of, state sponsored hostage taking,
[32:36] And we have repeat offenders, States that have become have become regular doing it. Iran, historically Russia, increasingly China.
[32:50] And those dual citizens, even though according to Chinese law, because as soon as they become an American, they forfeit their citizenship.
[33:02] But these are repeat offenders that we have and the dynamics with them, and it's a part of the exchanges of of agents with Venezuela. of bilateral negotiations and relationship that they want to work through.
[33:16] But there are other countries that it just happens randomly. is an example of a country that used to be a repeat offender.
[33:28] But since Otto Warmbier and the result of Otto Warmbier was they decided they don't want to play in this anymore. Most commonly, we see a lot of the exchanges.
[33:44] You can't get there without the personal gestures, the photo ops play a big role, the legitimacy that comes through those photo op.
[33:58] So when if Governor Richardson, I traveled to to Myanmar and had pictures with the leader and the leader used it to mystically for so and look at that, international leaders, we're not a government.
[34:11] If that's what he needed out of it, I'll be paying that price any day. If I serve in American life with it, I'm okay with that. Once somebody is back home, where we fail
[34:27] is to debrief with that person, learn about everybody who was wrong, that person from the prison guards to the judges to the to the people in charge of the justice,
[34:40] to impose costs on those in a way to mitigate the risk that even if American is taken, because there's a risk to them personally.
[34:55] Technology and social media and the ability to consume information is is both. but it's also negative when the way the captors are using it
[35:07] to demonize the the person that they have, I can tell you, a funny story that during the pandemic we couldn't travel so much. like we had with Venezuela, we would do a lot.
[35:21] And that's when I realized, because negotiating over text is very different than in person, you can do complex and nuanced questions. And that's when I learned the power. And I know this.
[35:37] I will sound weird and funny, the power of emojis, But if you couple it with emoji, you can create a layer, an emotional layer to it
[35:51] the tone in which you're saying something. And I can tell you that the Venezuelans are really good at that. during the pandemic with a lot of emojis, smiley face, flower, sun,
[36:09] somebody will need to write a book at some point. But there is never and I don't think there will be ever a replacement as good as in person.
[36:26] My accent, doesn't lie. I came to the United States. I did my graduate degree at Georgetown University School of Foreign Service,
[36:39] that my career will be foreign policy, probably Israeli, Arab conflict. But my first job out of Georgetown was with the Clinton Global Initiative, was to talk to heads of corporations and foundations,
[36:56] because the former president, he wanted everybody to make a personal commitment Part of my job was to call those people and solicit those commitments. if I'm asking all these people to make commitments, I should make one myself.
[37:12] There was a genocide taking place in Sudan. the inaugural conference of the Clinton Global Initiative in 2005, between Chad and Sudan, interview some refugees for two weeks,
[37:28] and then come back and raise money for whatever I found that they need most. on a Wednesday and I get a phone call, is this Mickey?
[37:41] Bergmann said, yes, this is governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico. You're coming with me to how to. whether this is an opportunity of a lifetime or the stupidest mistake
[37:58] I do before my head gets separated from my body, was not yet an American citizen. I was an Israeli, a former officer. So going there is is a risk.
[38:10] to Santa Fe, have lunch with the governor and then talk to him and explain to him that I don't want to risk the mission,
[38:22] And he just, he looked at me like, no, no, no, no, Mickey, I told them that I know you for six years.
[38:35] And we're all leaving. They're not separating us. Governor says I get people out of jail. Think what it will do to your career.
[38:52] I thought I would do Middle East in my life, but the world was much bigger and exciting, and the Clinton Global Initiative but businesses can do it.
[39:05] Because of my upbringing and because I served for six years in the Israeli Defense Force to understand the sense of loss and understand the ramifications of violence,
[39:17] I'm one of those who came out of military service and in combat with a very, very clear conviction that violence never solve our problems.
[39:41] If you like this episode, then you should check out our new podcast and comment below with the names of people you'd love to hear us interview.