[00:02] imagine in the book during the first years when it was really really easy difficult but we could still play all these tricks and now since 2023 it's going to get significantly more difficult to trick the machine
[00:16] because the machine is getting super smart so if we say Jason Barnard is the CEO of Cy Cube it understands Jason Barnard it understands Cy Cube and it understands CEO and it therefore it understands these two things Jason Bard
[00:28] and C Cube and the relation ship between them which is is the CEO of somebody said I made a million dollars in the 3 months that I happen to rank number one 2 months later Gary is said the helpful content update was all about
[00:42] understanding confidence in that understanding and The credibility of the entity that has been understood and you need all three or you've got no hope so the day that we get into trouble as a human race is the day Quantum Computing
[00:56] becomes a practical reality in production for Google and if I can no longer manipulate Google you know what happens if chat GPT is the future and I said well can you not manipulate chat GPT you're a writer who specializes in
[01:09] SEO which is much more powerful in terms of content creation than an SEO who happens to be a writer [Music]
[01:29] episode where I'll be interviewing SEO experts and entrepreneurs from around the world in today's episode I've got somebody who has been in the industry for a long term who has literally written the book on entity SEO please
[01:44] welcome to the show Jason Bernard ladies and gentlemen thank you Charles delighted to be here the book woohoo y the the book on ncso in my opinion um so how did you kind of get started in your SEO career right well you said a long
[01:58] SEO career right well you said a long time uh it's 25 years now coming on for 26 I mean I started in the year Google started so me and Google have grown up together I've seen every iteration of Google since the very beginning and that
[02:11] Google since the very beginning and that I think or fact I know is information knowledge you cannot buy there are very few people who started with Google and are still with Google and have done every single trick
[02:24] you can imagine in the book during the first years when it was really really first years when it was really really easy uh and now or in the in the after 2010 side going a little more difficult but we could still play all these tricks
[02:36] and now since 20123 it's going to get significantly because the machine is getting super smart yeah it is it's it's getting to a point now where the uh the kind of
[02:48] everything and understanding of the web and crawling and stuff is at such a fast technologies and stuff it's just unbelievable and that's exactly what I kind of want to talk to you about today so for the begin ERS and the the non SEO
[03:01] folks in the back of the room what are the what is what what is the meaning of entities within SEO kind of context right well lovely question and it actually beautifully follows on for the last one is that Google announced from
[03:15] strings to things 10 years ago from strings to strings of characters anymore we're going to understand what the thing is that those characters represent so if I take my name for example Jason Bernard
[03:30] the string of characters j s o n space b a r n a r also multiple other people called Jason Barnard so we tap two things here number
[03:43] one is the string of characters Jason Barnard Google would in the past just then it would wait it according to the number of times it should appear on the page the the algorithms were written by people so the people would give it a
[03:57] guess what the number is or figure out what the number is and then beat the the machine because it was written by humans now we're getting into machine learning where the machine learning the AI if you prefer is understanding what
[04:12] the string of characters means so if we say Jason Barnard is the CEO of C Cube understands C Cube and it understands CEO and it therefore it understands these two things Jason Barnard and C Cube and the relationship between them
[04:27] Cube and the relationship between them which is is the CEO of so from that which is is the CEO of so from that perspective Google understands like a human being but it announced that from strings
[04:39] to things 10 years ago so I built cadu Pro in 2015 thinking I've built the machine that can figure out the things part of this which means we can now beat Google hands down from today turns out it took
[04:54] Google eight years to catch up with me in 2023 Google finally nailed it it did a huge update to its knowledge last year we called the killer whale update and I've been here for 25 years all the time Google's been there doing its thing I
[05:09] Google's been there doing its thing I have never seen an update this big it was so huge that was in July and all of a sudden now the machine I built eight years ago is the best way the only way
[05:25] to manage entities for Google if you want to beat the strings to things deal yeah well that's it's impressive that you kind of preempted Google and that uh Google only took that well only
[05:40] only took eight years but it took a long eight years to kind of catch up um it's Google's documentation I think has been what it wants to be rather than necessarily what it actually is which is
[05:52] why I've always kind of told people to take with a pinch of salt and kind of necessarily what the documentation is literally say which is a great Point um publicly is marketing and they're trying to Market their product to us as SEO so
[06:08] so that they can get to where they want to go and what was lovely about this is I took them at their word I was still quite naive less so today but it meant that I I just leaped so far into the future as it were that I now have this
[06:25] amazing product and service that that people can now Buy and people can now Buy and use uh to Great to great benefit to themselves and from that perspective I was lucky but
[06:38] now I am taking it much more a pinch of Salan you know Google say this Google at what the machine is doing and John Muer from Google said outside of C of Google nobody knows more about entities than knowledge panels than Jason Barnard
[06:54] written the algorithms they give it over to the algorithms but who else in the the world can actually make the algorithm jump to my tune and that's the entity machine it's not theer machine it's how does Google
[07:08] understand and the the idea of Google understands the world like a human being does is something that people pull me up on sometimes and say well it's not quite the mathematical space blah blah I can't remember what the silly phras is that
[07:21] they use uh and I was talking to a friend of my daughter who's doing a PhD at Oxford in robotics and she does the site part of Robotics and she said oh we understand the world but we're struggling to
[07:35] understand it over time and over space so I asked her to clarify she said well if the robot is standing still and doesn't move its eyes to all intents and purposes it understands the world and in AI for robotics we just say we've
[07:48] understood the world as it is as soon as I get it to move its eyes all stand up and walk around then we have a problem so we can say Google can understand a static world
[08:02] understand a static world today it can't understand very well the passage of time and the movement in space and if you look at Google Maps it does understand movement in space but that's Google Maps and that's a part
[08:14] different Knowledge Graph so Google is working towards this real human understanding right now it's a static childish understanding and I I'm I'm it in a couple of months Google is a child learn to make it love you and if
[08:31] the game well that's a that's a pretty cool quote from John Mueller as well I'm hoping that he wrote it on Twitter or something so it feeds into AI for your own entity and that you have that you
[08:43] have GLE recognizing that you know more than anybody about it with your own entity right entity Inception if you will um so how has Google's knowledge based you said last year that there's a massive killer whale update and that
[08:57] of change panels and entity understanding and entity recognition how has Google's knowledge based and kind of definable entity recognition changed last few years and now for a quick message from our sponsor search
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[10:06] effective campaign about how to sleep on your back I hope this inspires and I hope you'll use this technique to learn massive links to your or your client's
[10:19] website well over the last few years it's evolved in kind of these steps so if I I don't know who out there remembers the Google dce but the Google daners the idea that you update your content Google crawls it 3 months later
[10:34] it then goes through its index again and updates the entire serp and index so there's a what we call data Lakes I.E it stores the data in a lake and then it trolls through it once in a while and so when you change something today you
[10:50] result of it it didn't work you had to change it again then wait another three months but if it did work you made a fortune for three months and people were dollars in the three months that I happened to rank number one brilliant
[11:04] down again but I had my million dollars I didn't care and today in in the Ser index sorry in the serfs we expect things to update in a day a week
[11:16] maybe that wasn't always the case so people who haven't gone through the whole history of Google don't really realize what the Google dance was but have three Google dances going on the Google dance which is between a
[11:30] day a week maybe two weeks if your site isn't trusted and that's important it's a day if Google trusts your site it's two weeks if it doesn't so if your website is taking two weeks to update in the syrups you know Google doesn't trust
[11:42] you you've got a problem the second Google dance is knowledge and that's three-month iterations so I update today Google that I've made will be reflected in a knowledge panel or in the Google
[11:56] Knowledge Graph and the third one is going to be large language models right now that's a one-year iteration if I add information to my site today it has no chance of being in the llm until this time next
[12:09] things and stuff right it's like a training delay as well right because sorry no no yeah continue sorry no that's exactly it it it it if you just think about lakes and rivers uh a data river is just flowing
[12:23] so if it doesn't trust you it'll just let everything Flow by into the lake to picks out the nuggets on the way past and sticks it straight in the Sur and does show you does Google trust you and if it doesn't you need to do something
[12:39] if it doesn't you need to do something about it and then the data Len idea is what we're looking at with knowledge graphs and the knowledge panel and llms is let it all Flow by and I'll let another algorithm deal with that and it
[12:51] ready when the engineers are ready to feed it more data and that brings me to the killer whale update which is is that the number of person entities in the knowledge graph I the number of people Google understands
[13:05] tripled in four days now if you think about the scale here if it understood 500 million people which maybe it does it understands 50 billion entities by the way if it understood 500 million people it went
[13:20] from 500 million to 1,500 million that's huge that was in four days so what what the engineers did is they had this huge Lake of data they cleansed it as much as they could and they gave it to the machine and said
[13:33] to the machine now figure out people it didn't increase the number of people it didn't increase the number of companies or songs or events only people companies or songs or events only people and it tripled them so they gave this
[13:46] machine huge amounts of data unimaginably huge amounts of data and said to it very specifically two things find the people and reclassify all of them reclassify all the people you
[14:00] understood then what happened in September two months later Gary is said the helpful content update was all about classification we have improved our months what did they do in the knowledge graph they reclassified
[14:16] everybody so this is the first time this is why it's so huge not only did it is why it's so huge not only did it triple in size but they reclassified everything with a much higher bar to be classified as anything in particular
[14:29] and then rolled it into the helpful uh The Helpful content update two months later and that for me is a direct relationship and what's classification when you think about people it's what what job do I do what's my role in in
[14:43] life and they reclassified by taking away the the classification of many many many many many many entities and the only ones that increased were writers
[14:55] and authors so Google reclass classified looking explicitly for who creates the content what does that say to you Charles yeah no I I fully understand I I I think that it's also potentially
[15:09] feeding into Google's idea of how to classify content for its own future AI specifically go okay these group of people are authors on this subject go
[15:21] find every piece of content they went and went and created and now this is our data source for this piece of expertise right so that's where so I I see it's kind of it's these systems are effectively stacking on top of each
[15:34] effectively stacking on top of each other and creating this uh a new kind of Media and I think that's also why Google is having these unintended consequences that you see like s sites getting hit out the blue that you wouldn't expect to
[15:48] get hit and also sites also going up massively that you really wouldn't expect to go up massively at the same time right and Google itself is even kind of confused and to to an extent suiv I think last December asked on
[16:01] Twitter for like the SEO Community to send in examples of the helpful content update with these wrong classifications so I do think that it's it's just it's like a stacking of data with also um Google's ability to just try and Define
[16:15] that data into thect clusters as as as refined as possible right um and I think that will be kind of the future and that's my next question um how do you see ML and AI which is the future of this technology kind of the future of
[16:29] every technology it seems at at this stage anyway um how do you see that moving especially the next year the next two years three years and changing entities and Google itself right firstly I'd like to say I
[16:42] didn't mean to sound condescending just before I was actually passing the bat on to you because I knew you would have something to add to that and expand on it and you you've nailed it um there a couple of exra things I might have said
[16:54] but I think we can we can safely say Charles just nailed the what does all Charles just nailed the what does all this mean to SEO um the the the future is really really interesting for me I'm super excited and I'm making the mistake
[17:07] going to happen in eight years time and I need to focus on making money today so I'm going to try and balance those two out now but if you look at Google the like a child I started in
[17:22] child I started in 2012 so yeah 12 years and realized that Google is a an unn knowledgeable child that learns by repetition so it doesn't know anything
[17:36] repetition so it doesn't know anything about you me c Cube anybody the audiences n person sorry or or company and it's trying to figure it out the world is incredibly messy the web is in incredible mess and we don't realize it
[17:50] our ecosystem every mention of us is incredibly messy all you need to do is clean up your digital ecosystem create one Central Hub which is called The Entity home and Link out to all the things that
[18:02] entity home link back from them to the entity home and Google Goes Around in Circles like this seeing exactly the same information and after a while like a small child it will say well I've seen that so often it must be true Bingo
[18:15] Bob's your uncle you've educated Google the child that's really simple anybody can do it the only problem of course is it takes you 14 hours we've tried it to compile your own digital ecosystem
[18:29] we built cicu Pro which can do it in 10 minutes and cicu pro will find 40% more than a human being and Kiku Pro will prioritize it according to how important it is to Google so each source is then prioritized you go from top to bom of
[18:44] the list and you sort it out and it takes an afternoon rather than taking it people generally spend two months doing it because you get tired you get bored and it's so easy just to give up but that prioritization is really important
[18:59] because if you're spending your life trying to convince an author who's something but Google doesn't care about it you're wasting your time and some of the surprising sorry some of the ones that aren't important
[19:14] that are are surprising sorry so if you take are are surprising sorry so if you take um aita solist wrote an article about me Google doesn't care Matt Arts wrote a page about me
[19:27] page about me Google does care so I'm focusing on those two people within the SEO Community you think a ler Solace is going to be more important not case and so KY Cube will give give you that prioritization now what I've just
[19:44] that prioritization now what I've just described is a simplistic child I'm desperately trying to not say stupid simplistic learns by Route learns by repetition what it's doing now is learning to learn
[19:59] well which is once again why it's such a huge update is the engineers gave the child immensely way and the charges went okay and it created three times more people than it had before now a lot of them are
[20:14] duplicates a lot of them are wrong but that doesn't matter right now because Google need to push this forward as fast as they possibly can and they're not worried about the duplicates I am I think it's a huge problem it's a huge
[20:27] problem that's waiting to bite us all in the as thank you very much uh it's going to bite Google in in the in the backside in a few years time it's going to bite
[20:39] all of them in the backside in the next few years as well it's a huge problem just waiting to explode in our faces I would suggest we need to sort it out now in a few years time because that would be disaster because think about what it
[20:51] does it's if I thinks is two different Jason Bernards but they're actually the same one it splits any credibility Equity I've got between two so the of its Equity to this other pretend Jason Barnard imaginary Jason Bard
[21:06] that's a huge problem I spent all of this time building links building up eat credibility and I've just given half of it to an imaginary person and lost it and I don't ever know which one of
[21:20] build it so I need to get rid of that duplicate but then when I do and I merge duplicate but then when I do and I merge them together I reunite of My Equity and poof it's like I've just built 10,000 links in a day because I've managed to
[21:35] unify My Equity that doesn't tell you where ML and AI are going but now I will Google is going to grow into adulthood it will learn to learn and the engineers will lose control the machine will become smarter
[21:50] than we are at which point we won't be able to teach it explicitly in the simplistic way that I've described we will look need to learn to manage how the machine understands and how it represents is and that's going to be the
[22:04] now figuring out and I've got a good idea how we're going to do it but right idea how we're going to do it but right now if you don't sort it out today when that does happen you have no hope of managing what that machine is
[22:19] it's going to understand you and importantly how it's going to represent you to your audience when they Google your name or when they come across you in search results and both happen and I think people forget that in order for
[22:32] necessarily need to search your name although they do they'll see you across all of the different results where you appear and increasingly in search gend of experience as that evolves how do you get Google Search generative experience
[22:46] to push you in front of the audience and that's through understanding if it doesn't understand you it can't recommend you and search gener G experience is Google's um
[22:58] analysis and its opinion about the results that it's delivering below and if you look at it that way it's much easier to deal with Google's got knowledge on the right hand side in the knowledge panel SE results
[23:11] recommendations takes this knowledge and the recommendations brings them together pushes them to a large language model gives its opinion makes sense I I think that um what you just said is kind of
[23:25] what you just said is kind of scary to some extent um but also quite intriguing around how you kind of said the next eight years Google is going to have this technology right A lot of people are saying um very wildly
[23:40] different statements right so some so so so as think that right um I saw on Twitter recently there was a quite a big discussion amongst kind of Marie Haynes and AA and a few other people and stuff and they were having some kind of debate
[23:54] around when Google would implement it into their system because obviously there's a different or a delay between when the technology is available and when it's available for commercial implementation right and so they're
[24:07] saying hey this technology is probably going to be here within a few years right but we're lucky because it's not going to be implemented commercially on on a an extent to be within G's index maybe for a decade or longer right I
[24:23] don't necessarily agree with that because Google that I don't think take into consideration that the AI is also making Hardware improve at such a rapid scale as well so the because the hardware is improving you know two new
[24:39] Nvidia chips every year that are twice as powerful as the last year which is just unbelievable um that kind of Rapid technology growth I think will allow that commercial implementation to be sped up faster I think it will allow
[24:53] Google have already kind of done it in the world they're getting all these h100 chips from Nvidia and they're getting the most compute in the world um I I think so so my question is how many
[25:07] years do you think it's kind of implemented is it eight years is it four years is it five years how many years do people have until Google um make us all overlords yeah um right I think there there are
[25:21] one is a lot of this has already happened and people just haven't realized entities in the Ser have been around for a long time H you got entity boxes now you've got if you search for the best of
[25:34] instead of giving a list from a website that they' found online they're now we've got several clients who come on we need to be in best in you know uh HR software for example and they're not because they're
[25:49] entity and or they're not understood as a credible entity so there's entity understanding confidence in that understanding and The credibility of the entity that has been understood and you need all three or you've got no hope so
[26:03] all of that is already here and people are saying oh we don't need to worry yet and they're all being happy in the little corner uh and that's lovely but you're missing a huge opportunity it isn't because not everybody's doing it
[26:15] that you shouldn't be doing it and it isn't because it isn't right now the most obvious way to appear in a Google Sur that you shouldn't be doing it you should be doing it because it's already important and it's about to become as
[26:27] said significantly more important especially with sge sge actually now gets data from the knowledge graph for the moment it's only dates and places of birth or in my case because I've been doing some experiments one of my songs
[26:42] doing some experiments one of my songs that I wrote 30 years ago it gets the date of release of that song on a specific album from the knowledge graph and not from the results underneath so Google's already experimenting with
[26:55] integrating the knowledge graph uh in real time into sge and at caku we know how it does it and it's not the knowledge graph lookup table that bill slowski mentioned to me several years
[27:10] to me several years ago that allows us at Kyu to then and been trying not to say manipulate my whole career manipulate Google that's what we do we do it in a nice way because it's all truthful and honest and
[27:25] I'm such a lovely guy I never tell a lie but we're still manipulating Google's Focus Google's understanding Google's attention and one thing that I learned the other somebody said to me the other day is the currency today is
[27:39] can sell if you can't get attention you can't sell wonderful how can you get the best attention or the most attention it's being presented by Google either in the surp OR now in sge and sge being all about Google's opinion and its
[27:55] recommendations you really have to be understood confidently and be seen to be understood confidently and be seen to be the most credible by Google so I would argue that saying oh we're okay for the next 10 years is a hugely foolish
[28:11] mistake over the coming years I agree with you the technolog is advancing advancing and we can't necessarily understand how fast it's going to evolve evolution and fabis canel who's Mr bingbot he builds bingbot and he's built
[28:25] it since the very beginning he's been doing it as long as I have but obviously doing it as long as I have but obviously slightly more important than me um said anyway who don't to worry about that Pard me nobody uses Bing anyway so you
[28:38] don't need to worry but the the really cool thing about Bing is I interviewed six of their team leads the people who build the algorithms because I realized that they've got nothing to lose and nothing
[28:51] their information so i' learned how search engines work from the people at Bing who actually build thing people said to me oh yeah it's just Bing saying but Bing and Google function the same it's the same audience it's the
[29:04] same technology it's the same data set and the same aim they work the same it's obvious then Gia said it a couple of years ago and I was I'm I'm very happy and pleased with myself for that one but understanding how they work what's
[29:19] flow goes through that entire system reading patents is great but when you what actually doing and not what they could potentially be doing with the patents they've got then they're not necessarily doing but we've just
[29:33] digressed from the topic uh fa said to me that 2023 we would see most of the growth the the exponential revolutionary growth in Ai
[29:47] going to be very fast Evolution but it's still Evolution the next big moment in Tech is going to be Quantum Computing so basically we're on a on a rising Plateau we just went up this huge hill this mountain this venous Mountain
[30:03] we're now on a rising plateau and the next vious mountain is quantum Computing so the day that we get into trouble as a human race is the day Quantum Computing becomes a practical reality in production for Google and bang yeah
[30:19] because you can run those algorithms you know even the the current algorithm you could run out an efficiency of 0.00 what ever percentage what you're currently running it at with using Quantum Computing so it would be
[30:32] mindboggling how efficient that would be and I also think that there's some level of um unlocking Quantum Computing UTI utilizing the current AI technology I think it will uh fasten in to the point we can unlock it um even on this stage
[30:46] that the AI can start simulating variations of the technology to see the output and performance and things and then we can get it to do it but anyway I digressing get to a lot of topics and we could probably do that all day because
[30:59] it comes to this technology and entities and Google everything right no 100% I mean I'm just really excited because for me this is this is you know it's not even it's it's not even once in a lifetime it's once in the entire human
[31:14] sitting in exactly the right place at exactly the right time and obviously it's scary and hugely hugely challenging but it's also unique opportunity opportunity with the most interesting thing in humanity
[31:29] ever ever ever in my opinion and sitting right in the middle of it is so much fun so for me this is a game and it's a game I'm fig I'm going to figure this out I'm what I'm going to do for the next years and in the meantime I need to make money
[31:43] which is why are entities important today why should we be working on them today for our SEO of today tomorrow and the next day uh and if we come back to why entities are important I I mentioned this to Lily Ray four years
[31:58] this to Lily Ray four years ago without entity understanding eat means nothing and she said oh yeah maybe and now she's saying it everywhere because it's obvious if Google doesn't
[32:11] understand your entity who the person is who wrote the content if you think to the number of people in the knowledge graft because it wants to understand who the authors are then it can understand what is and isn't AI generated because
[32:24] it can also understand all the vectors so it can look at your work and say this is written by Jason Berard he had it written by a and is's just putting his name at the bottom and the other thing of course is eat what is it it's
[32:37] credibility we call it neat we've added notability at the beginning and transparency at the end thanks to Jano vreo so if you look at it it's expertise experience authoritativeness and trustworthiness Plus notability in your
[32:50] Niche not Wikipedia notability we don't care about Wikipedia notability Google is incredibly Niche it's more Niche than you can possibly imagine to the point at which my website is a reference for the knowledge graph
[33:04] for my music group for my cartoon characters because it knows that I I created them therefore I'm an authority that's nich that's authority that's nich that's lovely notability for buan quala who are
[33:18] the cartoon characters notability for the barking dogs who are my music group I've sorry they are sorry I've got Authority for them I'm getting myself mixed up there and they are notable within their sphere although they
[33:30] famous so French alternative rock the barking dogs that's a niche blue dogs and yellow koalas and cartoons who were V vaguely Famous online for two or three years that's another Niche but they're authorit sorry
[33:46] they're notable enough for Google to take notice and I'm authoritative enough directly where it doesn't even double out anything because I'm so authoritative about them Google spent so
[33:59] long 25 years I can't believe it spent 25 years relying on links links are 25 years relying on links links are popularity you can possibly get by you say well it is author I mean I use the example of the Sun newspaper it's
[34:16] the example of the Sun newspaper it's popular but you wouldn't believe what it says so the popularity and the authority are two very different things so eat then starts to measure all the different aspects that aren't just popularity I
[34:30] want to dis links they are very important but what you then have is Google had or has links and people are saying they're still important they are still important but then you've got all the rest of it which Google can only
[34:43] apply if it's understood the entity and in the quality rers guidelines they talk in the quality rers guidelines they talk about the website owner not the website they want to understand who owns the website they can understand that that
[34:55] they can start applying all of the credibility signals such as Awards time in Market um references to them across the internet without links uh employee
[35:08] feedback and if they can then identify the person who wrote the content which is what the author update from killer well from last year was then they can look at qualifications other articles uh what
[35:22] I've been writing about for the last 25 years um p approval social Buzz all of these things that then add on top of the links so it's not links aren't important they are but look at all that stuff you're
[35:37] missing if your entity isn't understood yeah it's it's sort of like links are the base layer and you're building your entity on top of them basically and and the idea is that you're trying to get as a authoritative
[35:51] or as notable I'm trying to think with the correct word as a high up there uh so for example as you already said earlier some links have higher priority than Google than others and you're just
[36:06] wanting to try and get that entity information on that priority list as high up as possible right um and currently the way to do that seemingly normally especially with a new site anyway is probably with links um but
[36:19] combination of a lot of different things right and I think that will be the right and I think that will be the future of everything um it's just when and and what will happen and and I I do also want to to your point earlier as
[36:32] well where you talked about manipulation a lot of people yeah a lot of people have said what happens if I can no longer manipulate Google you know what happens if chat is the future and I said well can you not manipulate chat P can
[36:47] thing where it's reverse engineering something positioning something in the correct place and then hoping that output is in your favor and it's the exact same thing that we've been doing with this system of SEO and Google but
[37:00] we're just going to have to adapt to these new systems right yeah and yeah and you're you're going to have to get used to the Google dance so people who going to have to learn how to deal with the Google dance and it's hugely
[37:12] frustrating I can tell you but the an inter thing about chat GPT is I was at a conference the other week and I was saying Google search results look at how Google and you'll see I've got this amazing knowledge panel
[37:27] amazing knowledge panel amazing results and the person said I don't care about Google I use chat GPT I said we TR chat GPT and chat GPT says Jason Barnard is a world-renowned expert in knowledge panels and brand Surs he's
[37:41] been in SE for 25 years and he for he created Cy cube in 2015 I think but basically says he's a world-renowned expert then we tried somebody else's name and chat GPT had to look it up on Bing and came back with the answer which
[37:57] was simply a summary of the search results and that doesn't sound like such a problem because it got a good answer but what was happening there is answer but what was happening there is you ask about me and the child chat DP
[38:10] GPT can recite from its own brain without looking it up in a dictionary or encyclopedia exactly who I am and give an opinion world renown whereas with the other person it had to go and look in the encyclopedia
[38:25] which is Bing look at the current results and then summarize no opinion so recommendation there are two things number one I didn't get the the the recommendation number two is those search results can change from day to
[38:38] the answer it's giving is going to be different tomorrow than it was different tomorrow than it was today so the llm behind chut GPD was trained in April 2023 was its last data set so I was already in there in April
[38:52] 2023 but to get there I had to prepare in April 22 let's say so doing this over important that Google dance is going to be a huge problem for people who don't
[39:05] understand how it works yeah I've managed to get myself in chat as well so about a year and a half ago when I was using it and uh I was really frustrated it came up with like I don't know who that person is I was like I'm Gonna Make
[39:20] You know who that person is and lo and behold the April 2023 training date to it did so yeah I the the way I kind of reverse engineered it was I looked up other people that it had found within our Niche um and that it did recognized
[39:34] and then I just reverse engineered where those sources came from there likely Source sites went and bought articles on those websites about interviewing me or about me and then suddenly Lo behold it's it's
[39:46] within chat's training data so it it works out pretty well and like I said have been doing with SEO with chat optimization it's just reverse manipulate the output and I think that is in in inherently what SEO is at its
[40:01] core yeah no oh that's a good quote and 100% what you just said is something that we do at Cy Cube which is look at the competition what we do is take we call them entity equivalent so it's same entity type same G region same
[40:17] industry and we put them into the CQ Pro system so we try to get 50 to 70 entity equivalents and then what we can do is template and we can then template not just which are the sources of your hated
[40:33] Rivals as it were but what does Google look for as a template for this cohort for this group and that means you can immediately say well this is going to be better than that even though that person is in this particular Source the
[40:48] in general is is going for this that's key it's not just where they are it's where is Google gole paying attention and that's what technology does for you it does at scale what you would do by
[41:01] hand much faster much more accurately and with prioritization and that is hugely powerful but we also do what we call competitor Envy analysis so we take the hated rival we analyze them and that's
[41:15] where you poke the client is say look at what they've got that you competitor Envy thing that we can get them going with but the actual real power is the cohort analysis the market analysis of 50 to 7 50 to 70 equivalents
[41:31] the clients because the competitor Envy works much better to get them moving yeah it turns out ego is a pretty good selling El when you start talking to them I I've really appreciate you coming on Jason is there anywhere anyone can
[41:44] find you online yeah Google my name or look me up on g chat GPT ask chat GPT you he's a world-renowned expert in brand Surs and knowledge panels and has been in SEO for 20 5 years he created Cali cube in 202
[41:59] 2015 and next next year maybe I can get it to add he's a it to add he's a genius maybe that's a joke by the way no get get it to say the full IR man thing you know Playboy billionaire Phil
[42:13] philanth the whole lot right we need yeah I need to get some some extra names on my entity I think going forward with with chat G as oh I'll tell you one last thing uh about classification is the Google for the last six months has been
[42:27] explicitly looking for writers and authors so if you're an SEO who has now been classified as an author or writer Go With It Go With the Flow because as you said earlier on Charles you're a writer who specializes in SEO which is
[42:41] much more powerful in terms of content creation than an SEO who happens to be a writer sometimes so that's Point number one point number two is once that happened I was a writer in Google's brain and I had been for a while we
[42:54] decided as always at CBE to EXP experiment and we decided to change me from a writer to an entrepreneur which is very much going against Google's current flow and current focus and we did it it took us two
[43:06] months so now Jason Barnard entrepreneur in the knowledge panel why did we do that because I don't really care about Google search results ironically even we we use Google to learn what we need to do for our clients
[43:23] can teach it we can teach it by improving the digital ecosystem by improving the digital ecosystem we've improved the funnel and all the touch points for the potential client Google then reflects it in the SE search
[43:36] results for their name so it's learn sorry it we're learning from it and then we're teaching it and we're teaching it by what we can call it implicit semantics about entrepreneur is why is that important because every single
[43:50] project I get involved in now benefits from my Nea from my Nea TT so next company I create Google say a super duper entrepreneur and has been for 30 years that's going to get some
[44:05] extra credibility just from being associated with Jason barard that's my next project well I look forward to seeing it come to parition and I appreciate you coming on once more um that's been
[44:18] going to be completely mindblown by this interview and they're going to walk away with just you know so much information take away so much entity research to do um I really appreciate you having having having you come on as well and I'll see
[44:33] having you come on as well and I'll see you guys the next one peace