---
title: 'Everybody Makes Cacio e Pepe Pizza Wrong'
source: 'https://youtube.com/watch?v=tGj_mL6ac1M'
video_id: 'tGj_mL6ac1M'
date: 2026-06-28
duration_sec: 1125
---

# Everybody Makes Cacio e Pepe Pizza Wrong

> Source: [Everybody Makes Cacio e Pepe Pizza Wrong](https://youtube.com/watch?v=tGj_mL6ac1M)

## Summary

This video demonstrates how to make Cacio e Pepe pizza using a homemade starter and an ice technique that creates a pasta water-like emulsion in the center. The host explains the entire process, from creating a sourdough starter to shaping the pizza and baking it. The ice prevents the center from puffing up and creates a starchy liquid that emulsifies with pecorino cheese for an authentic sauce.

### Key Points

- **The ice trick** [0:00] — Ice on pizza prevents the center from puffing up and creates a pasta water-like emulsion when melted with flour dust, essential for a true Cacio e Pepe sauce.
- **Creating a starter** [0:58] — Mix 200 g water, 4 g instant yeast, and 200 g bread flour (12.7% protein) to form a bubbly starter. Leave at room temperature for an hour, then refrigerate overnight.
- **Making the dough** [4:10] — Combine 220 g starter, 345 g water, 10 g sugar, 15 g olive oil, and 615 g bread flour. Mix in a stand mixer, rest 20 minutes, then add salt and mix for 6 minutes with short rests until the windowpane test passes.
- **Bulk fermentation** [9:14] — After shaping the dough into a ball, let it sit at room temperature for 3-4 hours until it jiggles and shows air bubbles. Then portion into 220-230 g balls and refrigerate overnight.
- **Assembling the pizza** [11:51] — Stretch the dough, place ice cubes in the center, bake at 550°F on a preheated pizza steel for 1-2 minutes, then broil to brown. Add pecorino and parmesan (2:1 ratio), black pepper, and optional guanciale for an Amatriciana variation.

### Conclusion

The ice technique creates a starchy pool that emulsifies the cheese into a creamy sauce, delivering an authentic Cacio e Pepe pizza. Mastering the starter and dough process ensures a puffy, flavorful crust.

## Transcript

Now, I'd bet my life savings that if I
told you that you could make one of the
best pizzas in the world with nothing
more than a pizza dough, pecarino
cheese, and ice, you'd say, "You, Steve.
Get the out of here, you lying."
But today, I'm going to blow your mind
and show you why ice on pizza is a
genius level and technically sound way
to turn this icon into a worldclass
pizza. This is Kacho Pepe pizza. As you
evolve as a bread baker, you start to
realize for pizza, breads, whatever, a
good starter is easy and actually good
to have around. And if you use the right
flour, you don't have to worry about
this kind of volcanic bubbly crazy thing
that is kept out and is super kind of
hard to manage. So, if you don't have
this in your fridge, here's what you
could do. the day before or even a
couple days before you want to start
this, we're going to make a little
starter. And in this recipe, I have more
starter than I need. So, that residual
starter that I don't use gets refed. And
then you just keep it going. So, here I
have 200 g of room temperature water.
I've got some instant yeast. And I'm
just going to add about half that
package. Maybe about four grams. The
more you add, the more bubbly and faster
everything kind of happens. This is nice
and loose, if you can tell. Bubbly and
thick and creamy, but it's happened
slowly because we're not using an
incredible amount of yeast. We're not
throwing the entire package in. And to
that, we're going to follow up with an
equal amount of the water we added. So,
it's one part water, one part flour. So,
that's going to be 200 g. We're using
bread flour. Bread flour got more
protein in it. 12.7%. That's the protein
content. That extra protein sort of
creates like a more firmer, maybe like a
little bit more resilient dough. And so
to this, we just stir. We want to
hydrate the water and the flour.
You want to just make sure it's really
kind of worked in well. And how you'll
know it's ready is that it's kind of
sticky.
That's kind of what you're looking for.
Try and clean up the sides. Now, what
you can do a couple days before you're
making pizza, you can put a lid on this.
Put a rubber band roughly where it is
now. And then pop it in the fridge and
it should roughly double. Although
doesn't really matter. You just want to
see a loose structure. If you kind of
jiggle it, a lot of action, a lot of air
bubbles. So if it's not doubled, that
doesn't mean it's not good. It's a
characteristic we're going for rather
than a volume. There's only 400 g of
ingredients in there. So it's always
going to be 400 g, even if it fills up
this entire container. Now, if you are
making this tomorrow, what I like to do
is just leave this out at room
temperature and allow the warmth of the
room to kind of get it kickarted, maybe
about an hour or so, and then pop it
into the fridge. Let that go overnight.
And then that would give us this today.
And like I said, you're looking for that
sort of ooze, a lot of air action, like
a lot of webbing when I pull it away.
What this sort of gives me is a starter,
right? I don't need to now add any more
yeast into the dough. This is
essentially going to be my natural
version of that. And even if this gets
down to kind of nothing, if you can kind
of scrape all the gunk off the sides,
add more flour and water to it. You
never have to add yeast to this again,
really. So, now on to the dough. I've
spent years intimidated by ds. And if
you haven't noticed, this year we're
focusing a lot on them. You know, you've
heard people say you can't make a Philly
cheese steak at home if you don't have
the right bread. And I got good bread
around here, but not everyone does. So,
I'd rather start to learn how to make
these things, even if I don't do it
often, but just have it in my rolodex.
So, to start in our mixing bowl, because
of my shoulder, I'm sort of like moving
away from hand stuff for a little while
and relying on equipment. Something I
like to do on this show is teach
everything how to do by hand, so you
don't need an equipment. But sometimes
life has different plans. So, we're
going to adapt. on a scale. We're going
to get our mixing bowl on. To the
KitchenAid bowl, I'm going to add 220 g
of the starter. Now, I have some room
temperature water, about 345 g of it.
That's going to go straight in with the
starter. So, that's measured. We can set
that off to the side. So, now with that
starter and water, we can set up our
KitchenAid. It's going to be my friend.
Get the dough hook in. And then we're
just going to start it on low and just
sort of break up the starter into the
water. Now I can go in with my sugar. We
need 10 grams of sugar. We need 15 grams
of olive oil. And I'm just going to add
half of it now and then half of it a
little bit later. And then I have 615
more g of bread flour. So I'm just going
to use a small little container. I'm
going to scoop some out. Put a little
bit in at a time. And we're going to
just slowly work in the flour, allowing
it to hydrate more evenly, a little
faster. Make sure all the flour gets
soaked in that yeasty, milky mixture.
It's a similar concept to the way we
roll out fresh pasta. That little well
with the water or the egg in the center.
Slowly, we just work the flour in from
the sides until it becomes a dough. Once
it starts to become less soupy, we can
kind of add a little bit more speed to
it.
Rest of the flour goes in, that's when
the rest of our oil goes in.
Now all the ingredients have combined
except for the salt.
Now that dough is looking nice. All I'm
going to do is shut the machine off.
Cover the dough with a towel. You're
just going to let it rest for 20
minutes. That dough is going to calm
down and then we're going to add the
salt. And if you weren't going to use a
machine, you would do a technique which
is basically kind of slapping and
folding. You're just kind of getting a
shaggy dough like this. Then you're
resting. Then you come back, you form it
into a ball, put it back in, rest it for
20 minutes, come back, stretch it, fold
it over itself, come back for 20
minutes. You can just do the same kind
of idea in a stand mixer without having
to use your bad shoulder. 20 minutes
have passed. Now, that dough before was
tough, right? So, that machine was going
to fight. Even now, you could see how
much more elastic it is. Now, we're
going to go back onto We're going to now
add in that salt. It's going to start in
like this ball and then it's just going
to start to kind of unravel a little
bit. And you'll see the the side of the
bowl, all that gunk stuck to it starts
to get pulled away and cleaned up. The
salt is absorbed. And now we're going to
let this run for 6 minutes.
Now, since we're doing a dough that's
about 63% hydration, meaning 63% water
compared to flour, that dough starts off
sticky, which is why it sticks to the
bowl. But as it needs, as it works, as
the gluten starts to develop and the
bread flour with all that protein and
structure starts to get worked, it'll go
from like sticky and hard to handle to
tackier, but workable. And that's what
we're looking for.
6 minutes up again. We're going to give
it 5 minutes to rest.
Another quick 5m minute break.
Let it go for another 6 minutes. And
then one more 5minute break. That's when
we're going to do the window pane test.
As you can see, the dough is much more
relaxed. It looks very different, but
it's all in the process.
Then we're just going to cover it for a
final five minutes. And then we're going
to give it our window paint test. Less
than 20 minutes of mixing, less than 20
minutes of resting, and you're halfway
to the finish line. So after that final
rest, now we can take a look see. So I'm
going to take the dough and stretch it.
And you see how it's tearing? That means
it needs a little bit more time. I
really want good strength to the dough.
So we're going to go another 5 minutes
followed by another 5 minute rest. And
we'll repeat that until the window pane
has been achieved.
Cover rest.
Now let's take a look. You see how much
more elastic it is? Now eventually it
will tear. It's not infinitely
extensible, but it should just feel
really easy to work. And I just want to
roll it onto the board. And then I'm
just going to do a couple slap and
folds, which is just basically picking
it up, slapping it, and then folding it
over itself like that, creating like
tension to the dough. And then what I'm
going to do is use my palms like that.
And you're basically pushing up, over,
back.
Movements up, over, and then pull back.
Trying to get under the dough with your
fingers. Turn it again. Pull back.
And then you got a beautiful dough. The
bottom is nice and sealed. That's going
to go into a bowl. Now we proceed to
what is known as the bulk fermentation.
Going to get it covered nice and tight.
Then we're going to allow this to sit
out at room temperature for about 3 to 4
hours. We're looking for it to rise,
right? But it's not about if it doubles
or not. It's more about the type of
consistency it is. Does it jiggle? Does
it look airy? Are bubbles starting to
form around the surface. That's what I'm
looking for. And obviously some kind of
rise. But, you know, it doesn't need to
overproof or, you know, come out of the
bowl. We're just kind of getting it
started. And then we'll ball it, portion
it, and it'll chill in the fridge
overnight. There you go. It's been 4
hours and we got where we want it. It's
got a little jiggle. I can see little
air bubbles kind of not going crazy, but
you could see them forming. This is the
sign of uh fermenting proofing dough,
but it's not overproofed. That's what we
want. So, we're going to get it out of
the bowl.
See there? You can really see the
action.
So, we're going for like 220 to 230 g
dough balls. Let me take them and just
sort of fold them on top of each other.
Start to create like a little bit of a
dough ball.
You should get about five balls. You can
do the same thing we did with the big
batch to create the ball. Bring your
hand around then pull back to keep it
tight. There you go. I got one that's a
little bit bigger. I'm going to use that
for a different thing. I like to have
differentiz balls when I make dough. It
gives you kind of some options. You can
get them into some containers. Cover
them. And these go into the fridge
overnight, 24 hours. You can go couple
few more days, but 24 hours should work
fine for you. We take it out, let it
temper, and we make pizza. Now, today is
day two, unless you didn't have a
starter already. Tried to make this not
a crazy long fermentation. Just 24
hours. I'm going to pull out two of our
doughs. Let that come up to room
temperature. I told you we were making
kaco e pepe pizza which would be the
dough pecarino cheese and I've also got
a little bit of parmesan mixed in maybe
like a 2:1 pecarino to parm ratio and
black pepper but just like in the four
Roman pastas if we took kacho pepe and
added guanchal we have alaga which we
can easily do by the addition of some
diced guanchal which I'm just going to
get into a pot we're going to get that
onto mediumigh heat and we're just going
to slowly render out that fat and crisp
up that guanchchala. That's going to be
like the topping to turn it into greca.
While that happens, I'm going to spill
the beans. This is a technique you may
have seen in my Sunday supper series.
Chef Fausto, the pizza chef at the
stand, a man from Naples, I might add,
started playing around with ice on pizza
during some downtime before the event.
Now, he's a man of few words. So, as I
watched, it all began to click to me.
rolled a bit smaller to emphasize the
cornachon or the crust of the pizza. Ice
is placed in the center which does two
main things. It prevents the center from
puffing up just like a sauce and cheese
might do. But it also does one other
magical thing. It creates pasta water
just like cooking pasta in a pot of
water turns water into that gold that
emulsifies iconic sauces like kachoi
pepe. That pizza dough with all the
flour dusted on top of it mixed with
that ice does the exact same thing. Once
the dough is cooked, the ice is now a
pool of pasta water held in by that
puffy crust. And with a simple addition
of some pecarino cheese, a bit of
agitation to form the emulsion. You've
got a truly authentic way to make a
kachoi pepe pizza while following all
the same rules. Now, while this is
almost crispy, mind you, I've had my
oven preheated to 550 or the highest it
goes with my pizza steel about halfway
right in the center of my oven. That's
been preheating for like 3 hours. With
something like a pizza steel, when
you're making pizza, you really want to
give your oven all the time it needs. A
woodf fired oven needs to be started
like hours before you want to cook to
get the base of the pizza oven up to
temperature and retaining its heat so
that every time you put a pizza on
there, it doesn't cool down to a point
where it can't recover. And if
everything goes well, we're going to get
a puffy crust holding in a bunch of ice.
It's going to look like it was made in a
professional pizzeria. Now we're nice
and crisp. We're just going to run that
through a strainer. Catch the fat cuz
you need it to make the gichca. Top it
at the end with our gonchal. Drizzle
with our guanchale fat. We'll get greca.
Now let's make a pizza. First up, I've
got my pizza peel. I've got some flour.
Hit it with some cornmeal. Just going to
get roll that right onto the board for
me. I'd use semolina. I just don't have
it. Now, our dough looks beautiful. That
smells like beautiful New York pizza
dough mixed with a little margarita.
This Steviey's new pizza dough. I'm
telling you, this thing's money. I got a
scraper. Put a little flour on the
scraper. Put a little flour on the
board. So, I'm going to take the
scraper, put a little flour kind of
around the edges, and then scrape the
dough under. Get it onto the board.
Now, you see this? This is the bottom of
the dough, which is actually going to be
the top of the dough. That imperfection
is perfect to create the base on, while
that nice smooth side can create a nice
crust below. We're going to flip it. Get
both sides coated. And then we're going
to begin to sort of set the corn. So,
I'm going to press in strongly.
Rotate it. Set the crust.
Set that edge. Set the rim with my
fingertips. Just like that. Now,
remember that's the bottom. Flip it.
Do the same thing. Choking off the crust
from the rest of the dough so that it
puffs up nicely.
Move the flower off to the side
and just start to work it out a bit.
Then start pressing out the center. And
then we can take our palm, place it kind
of in the center, stretch it,
and then turn it. Don't have to do it
fast
and sort of stretch to the size you want
it.
Get our dough onto the peel. Make sure
it moves. Then I've got these little ice
cubes, these little balls of ice, almost
like little cubes of mozzarella. I got
it on Amazon. Our oven's preheated.
We're going to get ice into the center.
Fill it up just like uh you would
mozzarella. We want a nice pool of water
in there. Then we're going to pop it
into the oven. We're going to give about
1 to two minutes and allow that crust to
puff up, create that sort of cradle for
the pasta water while the ice melts.
Once that crust starts to puff, we're
going to transition to the broiler and
recreate the same environment of a pizza
oven. Of course, the broiler is not
working, you would do the broiler. We're
going to make it work.
Rotate it. And we're trying to brown it
nice and evenly.
It's a little bit of evaporation that
happened. So, I want to make sure I have
enough pasta water in there just like I
would with the kachoy pepe to form the
cream. Otherwise, it's just kind of
bunch of grated cheese on top. Cheese
mix.
Making the cream. Keep going.
So, we're going to create kind of like a
creamy bottom.
You're going to really want a good
amount on there. Fresh cracked black
pepper and you've got kachoi pepe pizza.
Transform it to grecia. A little bit of
that guanchal fat.
Top with the crispy guanchal.
You see that cream in there? The little
dusting on top just like you would
pasta.
I mean, it's a really beautiful dough.
Flavor is incredible. Reminds me of
dough from New York slice shops I used
to have growing up. Truly incredible
that this had water on it. You haven't
noticed, there's been a motif to this
year, which is emphasis on fresh bread
baking and dough making. You might not
have noticed, but I've been subliminally
training you to demystify the dough
experience, which I once had. are soft,
crunchy airy fluffy.
Even if you're not interested in the ice
part of this, this is your new go-to
dough. Keep the starter alive. Keep
feeding it a little flour and water
every day. If it goes too long, throw it
in some more flour, a little bit of more
water. Throw it on the stove. Make fried
bread for breakfast. Keep it going. Now,
if you want the recipe, it's going to be
linked down in the description. I've got
some updates on the shoulder. It's not
great. Not going to tell you yet. will
in the coming weeks. Stay tuned. For
now, that's all I've got. I'll see you
next time. Until then, take care of
yourself. Emphasis on that. Go feed
yourself.