[0:02] Hello there and welcome to the latest
[0:05] edition of the DF Direct Q&A show.
[0:07] You've got questions, we've got answers.
[0:09] Uh hopefully joining me first of all,
[0:11] hello Will Jud.
[0:13] >> Hello. It's good to be here as
[0:15] infrequently as ever.
[0:17] >> However, there are questions
[0:19] specifically aimed at you. So, this is a
[0:21] good one. Um okay. And uh also joining
[0:23] us, John Lman. Hello.
[0:26] >> Hello. Happy to be here on this
[0:27] judacular Monday. Uh, it's great to be
[0:30] joined by Will Jud. It's been awesome
[0:31] having you back, Will. I just want to
[0:33] say that so the public can hear it.
[0:35] >> Uh, it's good having the proper support
[0:37] on the back end, the the website stuff.
[0:40] So, yeah, good job, man. Welcome back.
[0:42] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, okay. Well,
[0:45] um, I guess we should just crack on with
[0:47] the questions, but first, this
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[1:57] Okay, then. So let's kick off with our
[1:59] first questions of the week. And uh
[2:02] we're actually having to refilm this
[2:04] because the dynamic situation with
[2:06] Microsoft is so dynamic that it seems to
[2:09] be changing on a 24-hourly basis. So our
[2:12] previous responses to these questions
[2:14] needs to be completely recalibrated. Uh,
[2:16] let's kick off with this one from Skyrim
[2:18] 26 FPS edition. When I see Satcha
[2:21] Nadella quoted as saying, "Now we have
[2:23] to turn Xbox into a sustainable
[2:25] business. Why do I mentally insert or
[2:28] else afterwards? Supposed options are
[2:30] spinning it off presumably to die and
[2:32] and be reborn as Activision Blizzard 2
[2:34] private equity edition or turning it
[2:37] into a JV, i.e. dead but someone maybe
[2:40] Asus gets the brand. I think that's
[2:41] probably pushing things a bit. Although
[2:43] things are pretty dire seemingly, I just
[2:46] hope for a quick resolution of the Xbox
[2:48] fiasco as I want this industry to
[2:49] succeed and maybe taking a player off
[2:51] the board will help that. Um, Djako in
[2:55] brackets, Dan, uh, lads exclamation
[2:57] point, what do you think to the recent
[2:58] rumblings that Microsoft is even
[3:00] considering spinning off or selling
[3:02] Xbox? Who would your preferred buyer be?
[3:04] Could Elon Musk really do a worse job?
[3:07] Absolutely yes, without doubt. Um, and
[3:10] if he bought it under his macro hard
[3:12] anti-Microsoft uh company name, would we
[3:15] be living in some kind of mirror
[3:17] universe? More like a sort of dystopian
[3:19] reality where everything has kind of
[3:21] gone horribly wrong. Although some might
[3:23] say the last 10 years is pretty much
[3:25] evidence of a Kelvin style divergence in
[3:28] the timeline. Um John, um yes, we
[3:32] originally um uh responded to these
[3:34] questions in the first draft uh of the
[3:37] first recording session, but um we were
[3:40] kind of like wanting Microsoft to just
[3:42] shut up and get on with business
[3:44] basically. I think that was the uh the
[3:46] the overriding messages because Satcha
[3:49] Dadella was basically coming out and
[3:51] saying, "Hey, you know, um we've been
[3:53] subsidizing video games for the last 25
[3:55] years. It's time for them. It's time for
[3:57] video games to pay us back essentially.
[3:59] And in the time since we recorded the
[4:02] first response to this uh to this topic.
[4:05] Um well, basically
[4:09] parts of the plan are starting to become
[4:11] apparent and it's pretty pretty bad
[4:13] news, right? Uh yes.
[4:17] I man I was commenting earlier that the
[4:21] the whiplash from this whole situation
[4:23] is honestly staggering because I think
[4:25] we came out of that recent sort of
[4:28] pseudo E3 presentation feeling pretty
[4:31] good about things right like it seemed
[4:33] like they were heading in a good
[4:34] direction. And it seemed like, you know,
[4:36] there would be some sacrifices,
[4:38] unfortunately, but what seems to be sort
[4:41] of coming out now suggests that it's
[4:43] actually a lot worse than we're
[4:44] expecting
[4:46] with studios either being spun out as
[4:49] independent in the best cases or simply
[4:52] being shuttered. Uh, and the names that
[4:54] are being mentioned is what's so
[4:57] concerning. Like in the case of
[5:00] Compulsion Games, for instance, I
[5:02] actually I I don't like to see that. I
[5:04] think they made a really cool game.
[5:06] They've done some good stuff, but you
[5:08] know, they haven't made enough games,
[5:11] one could argue, and the sales and
[5:14] performance of it was really poor. I
[5:15] mean, I can understand where the
[5:16] decision would come from, but when
[5:18] you're hearing, you know, you see Arcane
[5:21] is mentioned, um, Ninja Theories being
[5:24] mentioned despite just announcing a
[5:26] brand new game, sounds like Double
[5:27] Fine's going to spin out on their own
[5:29] hopefully. And then even stuff like
[5:31] machine games and ID software comes up
[5:34] as potential things that could either
[5:36] get shut down or hit. We don't yet know
[5:38] what's going to happen, but like it's
[5:41] just going too far. It's like they're
[5:42] saying, "Hey, we're just going to close
[5:43] all the developers you guys like." Um,
[5:46] >> right. And that comment about them just
[5:49] wanting to chase, it sounds like they
[5:51] just want to chase like the ultra
[5:53] high-end AAA uh sort of experiences,
[5:56] whittle down their portfolio to just the
[5:59] basics that like hit that market and
[6:02] that's it. And
[6:04] >> right,
[6:05] >> I guess basically the the best thing we
[6:07] can hope for is that these developers
[6:09] are able to essentially exit from
[6:11] Microsoft gracefully and somehow
[6:13] continue, right? If they could continue,
[6:16] that would be okay.
[6:18] >> But I don't want to see studios shut
[6:19] down and mass layoffs occur over this.
[6:21] And if that's the case, if they're just
[6:24] essentially removing so much talent and
[6:27] experience, it just feels like they're c
[6:29] like they're creating the problem that
[6:32] got them in this position in the first
[6:33] place, right? Like if you really go back
[6:35] historically and look, the Xbox 360 had
[6:38] a remarkably strong first and third
[6:40] party lineup. So did the original Xbox
[6:42] even, but 360 especially. But then there
[6:45] was a point where, and I think this was
[6:47] on Don Matrix watch, where they
[6:48] basically like whittleled down their
[6:50] first party stuff to almost nothing and
[6:53] they either focused too much on connect
[6:55] or they just didn't have much uh because
[6:57] they were so, you know, convinced that
[7:00] the third party support was all they
[7:01] needed. And then they spent years and
[7:03] years and years building up their first
[7:05] party portfolio again. And now I would
[7:08] say over the last five years, Xbox has
[7:10] had a pretty great stream of games being
[7:13] released, right? Like their developers
[7:15] are producing. There's a lot of stuff in
[7:16] the works. Like it seemed like things on
[7:18] the software side were going well and
[7:20] now it sounds like they just want to
[7:21] close it all down again and they're just
[7:23] going to wind up in that same stupid
[7:24] situation.
[7:26] Um, and it's just it's just emblematic
[7:29] of this constant feeling that they have
[7:31] no vision for where to go forward. And
[7:34] it's just decisions are being made on
[7:36] the whim. And every year it could be
[7:39] different. There was that clip from
[7:40] Psycho Odyssey
[7:42] >> uh about the making of Psychonauts 2
[7:44] that always goes around where somebody
[7:46] was asking about like uh you know when
[7:49] corporate visits and like oh yeah we
[7:51] love like Matt Booty and Phil Spencer
[7:52] and them you know they're they're the
[7:54] fun guys. It's what happens when Bill
[7:56] from accounting and so and so from
[7:58] marketing comes in on Friday. That's the
[8:01] problem. And it just feels like they put
[8:03] on a face that's like says one thing and
[8:06] then you know the penny pinchers come
[8:08] in. It's almost like they just
[8:11] >> uh leave them to they they say oh we're
[8:13] going to be hands off of the studios but
[8:15] they provide no guidance or support and
[8:16] then all of a sudden they like look at
[8:18] the at the you know finances and say oh
[8:21] we got to do something about this. Sorry
[8:22] guys. And it just kind of keeps
[8:24] happening. So
[8:26] >> right. Yeah. I mean, um, I'm just
[8:28] looking at reporting from Tom Warren,
[8:30] who is very well, uh, integrated. Lots
[8:32] of sources within Microsoft. He's saying
[8:34] that Xbox is closing down Ninja Theory,
[8:37] Compulsion Games, and Double Fine are
[8:39] also in quote unquote active
[8:41] negotiations about spinning off. I I
[8:44] wish them well. Um, and um, he also uh
[8:48] refers to an interview that Asha Sharma
[8:51] and um, Matt Bouty gave with Windows
[8:54] Central. And I'm just going to quote
[8:56] this. Um, the first conversations Asher
[8:59] and I had when we first met to do all of
[9:01] this, to her credit, she immediately
[9:02] emphasized supporting our studios and
[9:04] our games. Our ecosystem is built to be
[9:06] a portfolio of everything from small
[9:08] games to ongoing franchises to the big
[9:10] blockbusters. We've built at our core uh
[9:13] to build everything from Kil to Call of
[9:15] Duty. Everything from um Minecraft to
[9:18] South of Midnight. That's core to how
[9:20] we're set up. This is Matt Booty here. I
[9:23] think we've got one of the best
[9:24] portfolios out there, even in the
[9:25] entertainment industry more broadly in
[9:27] terms of that range. We're dedicated to
[9:29] it. And here's why. I believe that
[9:31] almost everything big started out as
[9:32] something small. We cannot lose the
[9:34] ability to have those places where
[9:36] little sparks can grow into something
[9:38] big. The creative environment that lets
[9:40] us take bets and creative risks has to
[9:42] be part of Xbox's culture. We're
[9:44] committed. Our studio system is built
[9:46] for that. Well, are they committed based
[9:49] on the fact that um you know it doesn't
[9:52] look as though um a lot of these studios
[9:55] are going to be supported in the way
[9:57] that was suggested there. Uh it's it's
[10:00] kind of shocking really the the the you
[10:02] know there's always a legacy quote that
[10:05] comes up to bite Microsoft uh in the
[10:08] behind whenever there's a big move like
[10:10] this really does suggest that there's
[10:12] just no sort of coherent strategy. Um,
[10:16] well, this is I mean I'm I'm staggered.
[10:20] I shouldn't be based on everything
[10:22] that's happened, but I am.
[10:24] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's
[10:26] just that whiplash between, you know,
[10:28] the executive statements, which seem
[10:30] very reasonable and seem like there's a
[10:32] clear direction in place, the Xbox
[10:35] showcase, which was really positive,
[10:36] really exciting as, you know, an Xbox
[10:38] fan or somebody who just enjoys the
[10:40] games on PC. Seems like there's plenty
[10:42] going on. And you know, as they say,
[10:44] like a good range from AAA stuff down to
[10:46] double A stuff and indie games all kind
[10:48] of included. But you know, and then the
[10:52] other shoe drops and then this is the
[10:54] kind of stuff that we have to deal with,
[10:56] right? And that these developers have to
[10:57] deal with more importantly
[10:59] >> is that it seems like, you know, there's
[11:01] going to be a very harsh reset for a lot
[11:03] of studios. And I'm sure that beyond the
[11:06] closures and the studios being spun off,
[11:10] there's also going to be a lot of them
[11:11] that are facing layoffs, right? So,
[11:14] >> it's Yeah, it's just really problematic,
[11:17] I think, especially, you know, for Ninja
[11:19] Theory to have had a game announced and
[11:22] have such a positive reception to it and
[11:24] then to be in the headlines a few days
[11:27] later to say, "Oh, yeah, and probably
[11:28] the studio won't exist after that."
[11:30] Like, will that game even come out? will
[11:32] come out and then the studio closes
[11:34] down. Like neither of those are great
[11:36] options. And uh yeah, it's it's just a
[11:40] real shame. Like obviously there's a lot
[11:42] of pressure from Xbox and certain parts
[11:45] of it at least to be um always producing
[11:48] bangers, you know, being uh capable of
[11:52] producing these kind of evergreen titles
[11:53] that people will just spend almost
[11:55] unlimited amounts of money on. But I
[11:57] think it's really important for
[11:58] Microsoft and for Xbox to also be
[12:01] supporting these kind of mid-level um
[12:04] studios that have more reasonable
[12:05] budgets that aren't taking huge swings
[12:08] on everything and are able to come out
[12:10] with games that are made at a reasonable
[12:12] price and you know therefore you get a
[12:15] lot of different bites of the cherry,
[12:16] right? So
[12:18] >> yeah, just super disappointing news and
[12:21] uh yeah, hard to see how this kind of
[12:23] jes with everything that Microsoft's
[12:25] executives have said before.
[12:27] Right. Yeah. I mean, the ecosystem seem
[12:30] to be designed for Game Pass to create a
[12:32] range of um games of varying sizes and
[12:36] varying shapes and different types of
[12:38] games to support a vibrant
[12:40] subscriptionbased offering.
[12:42] >> And I think, you know, it took years to
[12:44] get there. And I think, you know, part
[12:45] of the issue that Microsoft had with
[12:47] Xbox Series in particular is that there
[12:49] was a failure to deliver games in those
[12:51] first few years.
[12:54] um that has kind of like been reversed
[12:56] at this point. We've had some
[12:57] sensational games from Microsoft. Um we
[13:00] had this fantastic showcase just a few
[13:02] weeks ago. There seems to be I don't
[13:04] know, John, there seems to be this
[13:05] incredible sort of lack of
[13:07] self-awareness about about everything
[13:10] that they're messaging to the audience
[13:11] at this point, you know, because
[13:13] obviously they went into this showcase
[13:15] and uh we're going to show great things.
[13:17] there was um a lot of interaction
[13:19] between um management and um the fan
[13:22] base and then this happens like weeks
[13:26] later. I just don't understand the
[13:29] reasoning or the strategy here. It just
[13:31] doesn't make sense. And you know, if
[13:33] there are poor decisions being made just
[13:36] on the messaging side, then what else is
[13:38] going on? I mean, man, this is this is
[13:41] just crazy stuff. From the outside,
[13:43] there's this sense that there's a huge
[13:45] conflict that's brewed between, say, the
[13:48] Xbox group and Microsoft corporate. You
[13:51] know, people like Satia Nadella at the
[13:53] top. What they want doesn't really seem
[13:55] to align well with this. And when you
[13:58] see them all interviewed separately,
[14:00] they often make statements that feel
[14:02] kind of conflicting, which makes it seem
[14:04] like they all have their own desires for
[14:06] things and kind of let that slip. And
[14:07] there's no like real unified message
[14:09] here, which makes me do it makes me feel
[14:12] like Xbox if it I don't know how this is
[14:15] possible, but I would just it would be
[14:17] interesting to see it spun out as its
[14:19] own thing somehow, at least somewhat
[14:22] separate from Microsoft corporate. I
[14:24] mean, we know that Satia is all in on
[14:27] co-pilot and AI and all that nonsense.
[14:29] Like to him like I think he is exactly
[14:32] the type of person that would feel zero
[14:35] remorse about laying off the entire
[14:37] gaming team, every single person, so he
[14:40] could, you know, invest more in AI. I
[14:42] genuinely think he would not care. Uh
[14:45] it's that type of like personality we're
[14:47] probably dealing with here. And I think
[14:49] this is not what's interesting to him as
[14:51] as a business leader. And it doesn't
[14:53] feel like it suits what Microsoft is
[14:56] right now. You know what I mean? like
[14:58] Microsoft of 2026 is not the same
[15:00] Microsoft that started Xbox. And I think
[15:04] I would like to see all this Xbox
[15:06] because we know we know a lot of people
[15:08] that work at Xbox, right? We have like
[15:11] friends and contacts within all these
[15:13] studios and Xbox proper. I do believe
[15:16] that the people working within that
[15:19] organization genuinely do actually care
[15:21] about this stuff and they want to make
[15:23] great things, but they're limited by
[15:26] this this management situation and being
[15:28] part of Microsoft as a company. So, if
[15:31] they could find a way to split, that
[15:33] would be wonderful. But how that's
[15:35] possible, I do not know.
[15:39] >> Right. I think, you know, fundamentally
[15:40] the issue with spinning off from um
[15:42] Microsoft is that they would still be
[15:44] the the effective owner. They would just
[15:47] be outside of the corporate structure to
[15:50] a certain degree.
[15:51] >> To a certain degree. And maybe that
[15:52] would be what's necessary to make the
[15:54] decisions that are actually good for the
[15:56] gaming business. I I don't know. Like
[15:58] this is
[16:00] there's just there's too much going on
[16:02] here and we don't have enough
[16:03] information. I think most of most of
[16:05] what we're saying is just born out of
[16:06] frustration of seeing a business that we
[16:09] love and care about essentially being
[16:11] like ground down into nothing and this
[16:14] like constant whiplash between like a
[16:16] positive message and then a negative
[16:18] message. And unfortunately, I feel like
[16:21] the Western gaming industry especially
[16:23] is just in a really bad place right now.
[16:25] Microsoft's not the only one doing this,
[16:27] but it's pretty severe from their camp.
[16:30] And
[16:31] >> I feel like what we're really seeing is
[16:33] the effects that we all cautioned about
[16:35] is like all these acquisitions and like
[16:37] creating large conglomerates built from
[16:41] so many different companies. It's not
[16:42] sustainable and it's going to end badly.
[16:45] And I think there's definitely cases
[16:47] where certain acquisitions may have
[16:49] occurred because the company could no
[16:51] longer operate independently and they
[16:53] essentially needed an out and this
[16:54] essentially just bought them time. But I
[16:56] don't believe that's the case in every
[16:58] situation.
[17:00] So, I don't know.
[17:02] >> Yeah, there does seem to be like um
[17:05] inconsistency in messaging because um
[17:07] and this goes back to um the whole uh
[17:10] four games situation um the business
[17:13] update where you know we heard about the
[17:15] the the beginnings of a multiplatform uh
[17:18] plan which everybody kind of knew was
[17:20] already fully formed or very close to
[17:22] it. And at the same time as that was
[17:24] happening, you know, there was very sort
[17:26] of careful messaging from management at
[17:29] that point, even though it didn't feel
[17:31] particularly accurate. Um, but at the
[17:33] same time, you had Sachin Nadella
[17:35] basically wading in with his size
[17:38] 12elves
[17:40] saying, uh, yeah, you know, what's the
[17:42] point of exclusives, that sort of thing,
[17:44] basically undermining management. So,
[17:46] you know, there does seem to be a
[17:47] continuing sort of um friction between
[17:50] Microsoft and and Xbox leadership and uh
[17:53] and now it seems to be the same thing
[17:55] happening again where you know we've
[17:58] basically got comments that were being
[18:00] made by new management just a few weeks
[18:02] or or you know a couple of months ago
[18:05] basically disappearing and uh complete
[18:09] about face on strategies just absolutely
[18:11] baffling. I think there's just got to be
[18:14] a firm sort of um strategy that they're
[18:18] going to commit to that is positively
[18:20] communicated to the community because
[18:22] what on earth is all of this about and
[18:25] it is just you this lack of
[18:26] self-awareness you know Sanchi was
[18:28] talking about um uh obviously the big
[18:31] hardware issues that we've got at the
[18:33] moment and you know complete sort of
[18:35] lack of self-awareness that Microsoft is
[18:38] a key player in actually causing all of
[18:40] that and no sort of evidence that
[18:42] Microsoft is, you know, going to help
[18:44] out uh to help out Xbox in navigating
[18:47] through this when surely they can to a
[18:49] certain degree. No, it looks as though
[18:52] that um they've made their investment
[18:53] over the last 25 years. Uh uh YouTube is
[18:57] making more money off Xbox than Xbox is,
[18:59] which is baffling. I don't know where
[19:01] that comment came from. I just don't
[19:03] know what to make of all of this at this
[19:04] point. And it's funny because we did
[19:07] record an initial response to these
[19:09] questions yesterday in fact where it was
[19:11] kind of like okay maybe they just need
[19:13] to shut up and get on with it and then
[19:15] you know come up with a strategy and and
[19:17] execute it and um uh you know it's sort
[19:21] of we have to redo our own content now
[19:24] to adjust to Microsoft's changing
[19:26] messaging over 24 hours. Absolutely
[19:29] baffling. Absolutely bizarre. But no, uh
[19:32] I still think that Elon Musk would
[19:34] probably do a worse job.
[19:37] >> Oh yeah, undoubtedly.
[19:40] >> Any final comments, Will?
[19:42] >> Um I would just say that, you know, if
[19:45] this is going to come to pass, I really
[19:47] hope that they say, "Okay, we've had to
[19:50] close some studios. We had made some
[19:52] layoffs, but from now on, we're going to
[19:55] invest in the studios that remain. we're
[19:57] going to be trying and get ourselves
[19:58] into a really strong position so that
[20:00] when Helix comes out it'll be supported
[20:03] by a really good like you know launch
[20:05] library right I think that has to be the
[20:07] goal here and if these cuts are
[20:09] necessary to make that happen then you
[20:11] know it still is incredibly painful but
[20:14] at least it would have been worth it in
[20:15] some sense right so I just hope that
[20:18] this is the start of a consistent
[20:20] strategy that actually sets them up for
[20:22] some kind of success in the future
[20:25] >> yeah I think I echo that I think the
[20:27] bottom line is that um we just need to
[20:29] know what the plan is and I think more
[20:30] to the point the staff at Microsoft in
[20:33] all the development studios and you know
[20:35] and within Xbox itself kind of need to
[20:37] know what's going on because I don't
[20:38] think anybody does at this point it's
[20:40] just absolutely absolutely baffling. Uh
[20:43] a final comment from you John.
[20:45] >> Um what you said will that sounds so
[20:48] hopeful. That would be nice. Uh, but I'm
[20:51] sure that's exactly what they thought
[20:52] when they launched Xbox Series X and S,
[20:56] right? And it didn't pay out. So,
[21:00] although they did actually end up
[21:01] getting the games, but I feel like now
[21:03] it's just I don't know. All I'll say is
[21:05] if they if they dare touch a company
[21:07] like ID Software or something, I will
[21:10] never forgive them.
[21:13] I was super angry over the things with
[21:15] like Bluepoint and all that with Sony,
[21:17] but if you go after a a studio like ID
[21:21] that has produced nothing but greatness
[21:23] and the best technology in the industry
[21:25] and try to shut them down or bring or
[21:28] cut them to to pieces, like no, it's not
[21:31] okay. I'm not I I could never forgive
[21:33] that.
[21:35] I think basically, you know, an
[21:37] explainer to the audience about what has
[21:39] happened and why rather than just, you
[21:42] know, we typically what happens is a
[21:44] memo from the CEO is sent to the staff
[21:46] and that memo is then shared with the
[21:48] audience and the memo is basically word
[21:50] salad. There's no real sort of proper
[21:53] explanation. It's challenging
[21:54] conditions, that sort of wordage. Um,
[21:58] what's going on? you know, you know,
[22:00] Xbox, you can't reach out to your fan
[22:02] base, uh, try to reconnect with them,
[22:06] show them amazing games, and then
[22:08] basically come back a couple of weeks
[22:09] later and say, "Well, actually, we've
[22:11] got some real problems here. Sorry, it's
[22:13] just absolutely bizarre." Anyway, I
[22:16] think we can all hopefully move on.
[22:19] Okay, sort of leading on from that,
[22:20] interesting question here from Dudley
[22:22] the Gentleman. Hello, renowned Pixel
[22:24] Purity Police. Do you see the Xbox brand
[22:27] becoming the next 3Dio where Microsoft
[22:29] defines the specifications and OEMs
[22:32] build the hardware? If so, how can they
[22:34] be successful where 3Dio and even Valve
[22:36] with the original Steam machines have
[22:37] failed? Uh I think that is probably a
[22:40] key part of the strategy, right, John?
[22:42] Where they're talking about um
[22:43] partnerships, hardware partnerships. Um
[22:47] uh yeah, Will, we had a a discussion the
[22:50] other day. It's like, well, why are
[22:51] Microsoft seemingly so badly affected by
[22:53] these component shortages when
[22:56] >> Microsoft is buying a lot of the
[22:58] components elsewhere within the
[23:00] business? And I'll come to you shortly
[23:01] on that, John. But 3DIDO, obviously, you
[23:04] know, there's associations that this
[23:05] this wasn't really a great thing. It
[23:08] didn't really um make an impact. It was
[23:11] an interesting idea.
[23:13] Is it the new 3Dio? Could Project Helix
[23:16] be the new 3DO?
[23:17] >> Is there a positive spin on that?
[23:20] I mean, maybe, but I I think
[23:22] conceptually what they did with 3Dio is
[23:24] interesting, but it's just like the time
[23:26] and place, the market conditions now are
[23:28] just so fundamentally different that I
[23:30] don't really think it's even remotely
[23:33] comparable. 3DIO ultimately the biggest
[23:36] issue there was um obviously software
[23:39] was not as good as it needed to be. uh
[23:42] though it's not bad but secondly that
[23:44] model at the time game consoles really
[23:47] relied on on being subsidized right so
[23:50] it was the blades and ra blades and
[23:52] razor model essentially or blade and
[23:54] razors model where essentially you know
[23:57] they sell the hardware often at a loss
[24:00] they make it up with software licensing
[24:02] but due to the way 3DO worked you know
[24:04] if you have Panasonic or Goldstar
[24:06] whoever making a 3DO back then they
[24:08] didn't get anything from the software
[24:11] really, right? So, there was no benefit
[24:14] to them selling units at a loss. So,
[24:17] they didn't. And that's kind of why the
[24:20] price had to be as high as it was. And I
[24:21] think at the time, it was just way too
[24:24] expensive. Didn't have enough software.
[24:26] Uh, and it was just a crazy time in the
[24:28] market in general. Everything was in
[24:29] flux. And so, you know, a year or some
[24:33] change later, Sony comes along and does
[24:36] a similar thing, but way better. Uh,
[24:38] yeah, there was no chance. Now we're in
[24:41] the era of I guess I mean hardware in
[24:44] general is more expensive. Uh
[24:48] Xbox as a brand is already established,
[24:51] right? 3Dio had to be uh built up from
[24:54] nothing and Xbox already has a very
[24:58] large library of games and publishers
[25:00] working for it and it owns tons of
[25:01] development studios. I mean they have
[25:04] what they need for software support. So,
[25:07] if they were to take this approach,
[25:10] conceivably like the software side
[25:12] wouldn't really be an issue, which is
[25:14] why it could still find success. Um, but
[25:17] I don't know what that would mean for
[25:18] prices. And I mean, if OEMs are building
[25:20] this hardware,
[25:23] but I don't think companies today take
[25:25] as much of a loss on hardware as they
[25:28] used to, it feels like. Uh, I I I we
[25:32] need to actually check the numbers on
[25:33] that, but I don't know. And I still
[25:36] think that Xbox itself at least I would
[25:40] imagine that it's still going to
[25:41] manufacture at least its own firstparty
[25:43] devices to some degree. Like I don't
[25:45] think it's all going to become like Asus
[25:47] ROG boxes and stuff like that. Like I
[25:50] still have a feeling that Helix or
[25:52] whatever it is is going to end up having
[25:54] an actual official Microsoft built
[25:57] device.
[25:58] >> Oh, sure. Yeah. They've committed to it.
[25:59] They're making it the reference device
[26:02] that's happening.
[26:02] >> Exactly. So that and that's a different
[26:04] thing. You know, if they allow others to
[26:06] make a similar thing, that's that's, you
[26:08] know, that is more like what the 3Dio
[26:10] did, but 3Dio never had its own
[26:12] reference device.
[26:14] >> Yeah.
[26:14] >> So,
[26:15] >> what we need is a uh Project Helix
[26:17] Wonder Mega.
[26:19] >> Oh my god. Yeah. That's Sega. Sega
[26:22] really did used to do that, right? Like
[26:24] they had their main systems, but then
[26:25] they let companies like JVC make their
[26:28] own stuff. And damn, if anybody has a
[26:31] Wonder Mega, man, that's the one that's
[26:33] my my white whale for for retro
[26:35] consoles. The original Wonder Mega. I've
[26:38] been wanting one of those for so long,
[26:39] but man, they're tough to get.
[26:43] Um, well, let's talk about this OEM
[26:45] strategy. I'm a bit confused by it
[26:46] because um
[26:50] it surely it's just adding somebody else
[26:52] to the supply chain that wants to make
[26:54] money out of these devices. So, you
[26:56] know, obviously there's going to be AMD
[26:58] making all of the um uh all of the
[27:01] chips, right? Uh TSMC probably making
[27:04] actually pro actually fabricating the
[27:07] chips. AMD, I don't know, are they are
[27:10] they kind of making a license? I guess
[27:12] it is a license deal with Microsoft. So,
[27:14] Microsoft would then sell the chips to
[27:17] Asus, MSI, whoever wants them, Dell. And
[27:20] you know, surely this is just like
[27:22] somebody else in the chain who needs to
[27:24] make money out of this device. And how
[27:26] how are they going to make money on it?
[27:27] I'm a bit confused by that.
[27:30] >> Yeah, it's a bit of a weird situation.
[27:32] Like with the ROG Ally, it kind of made
[27:35] sense because ASUS had already produced
[27:38] this device and Microsoft could make
[27:40] some small hardware changes, make some
[27:42] bigger software changes, and then they
[27:44] had a product that made sense. But for
[27:47] Helix, I don't know if that's kind of
[27:49] the same situation. Obviously, Asus and
[27:51] Dell and whoever isn't going to have,
[27:53] you know, 90% of a viable project Helix
[27:55] sitting around. So, I think if they do
[27:59] go down this route, it might be more
[28:01] about adapting it to different regions.
[28:04] Like, um, for example, like Valve, they
[28:07] kind of let other companies in China
[28:10] run, you know, the Steam network and and
[28:12] run, you know, and sell devices and
[28:14] things like that, right? where they're
[28:16] kind of handing over some
[28:19] responsibilities to local experts. So, I
[28:21] could see a situation like that where
[28:23] they say, "Okay, well, we're going to
[28:24] make Project Helix for China and it's
[28:26] going to be made by a Chinese company
[28:27] and it's going to have different
[28:29] software and it's going to have all
[28:30] these, you know, adaptations that make
[28:32] it more viable there." And, you know,
[28:34] you could do the same thing with South
[28:36] Korea or Japan or another kind of big
[28:38] but slightly different market. Um, in
[28:41] terms of just, you know, having it
[28:42] wholesale, I think, yeah, it does just
[28:45] kind of complicate things and there
[28:46] would need to be a good reason to do it.
[28:49] I guess diversifying, you know, the
[28:51] investments and things like that would
[28:53] be good, but yeah, it's hard to say that
[28:56] there's like a huge need for, you know,
[28:59] Project Helix to be made for like by 12
[29:01] different companies unless they're doing
[29:03] something genuinely interesting with the
[29:05] hardware or the software or something
[29:06] like that.
[29:07] >> Mhm. I mean, the only thing I can think
[29:09] of is that possibly they would have um
[29:12] uh superior procurement on stuff like
[29:15] SSDs and memory modules compared to
[29:17] Microsoft, but that is kind of
[29:19] staggering in its own. Yeah, just the
[29:21] conceit of that is kind of hard to
[29:24] believe. You know, Microsoft have been
[29:26] making even without all of the server
[29:27] stuff, they've been making laptops,
[29:29] they've been making consoles, they've
[29:31] had relationships presumably with TSMC
[29:34] and and the memory manufacturers for
[29:36] decades. So, I'm I'm still sort of a bit
[29:38] mystified by all of this. What I can see
[29:40] is that if Helix is indeed a machine
[29:43] that is just as much a PC as it is a
[29:46] console, then there could be uh bespoke
[29:49] designs designed for specific uh PC use
[29:52] cases because obviously the um the great
[29:55] thing about the PC is the diversity of
[29:57] the components that could go into one or
[29:59] the use cases, you know. So you could
[30:01] possibly have a helix machine that has
[30:03] more memory for example if you wanted to
[30:05] also use it for production tasks or
[30:07] something like that. Uh so then you sort
[30:10] of build up an ecosystem of Xbox
[30:12] adjacent or or even Xbox branded devices
[30:15] but they are made by like MSI Dell or
[30:17] whatever. And I do think, you know, from
[30:19] a value perspective, compared to some of
[30:21] the pre-builts, there is probably going
[30:23] to be a good value argument there. But,
[30:26] you know, a mainstream device, um, I I I
[30:31] find it really hard to imagine um those
[30:34] guys coming up with that, um, particular
[30:37] device for that particular audience
[30:38] because there's not really any money in
[30:40] it. Um, okay, let's move on. Okay. So, a
[30:45] question here from Marcus. Hi,
[30:46] Foundryman. exclamation point. What your
[30:48] thoughts on ARM's new quote unquote
[30:50] neural technology stack for mobile
[30:52] graphics with new super sampling, new
[30:55] frame rate upscaling, and neural super
[30:57] sampling and denoising? Seems like an
[30:59] unusually open attempt at an ML
[31:01] rendering suite for mobile covering
[31:03] upscaling, frame interpolation, and
[31:05] combined upscaling and denoising. Could
[31:08] this be important for vendors that do
[31:09] not have something like DLSS, Metal
[31:11] Effects, FSR, or a mature in-house
[31:13] solution? More broadly, could open
[31:16] developerfacing tools like this help
[31:18] raise image quality across Android
[31:20] phones, handheld class devices, and
[31:23] perhaps eventually Windows on ARM
[31:25] systems? I hope you have a great week.
[31:26] Explanation point. Uh, thanks for that,
[31:28] Marcus. Um, well, we were going to talk
[31:30] about this in the direct last week, but
[31:32] um, we didn't because well, you actually
[31:35] did the article on digitalfoundry.net.
[31:37] You spoke to the people involved,
[31:39] >> and I thought we'd save it up
[31:42] >> uh, for you to talk about.
[31:44] Yeah. So, it's a pretty cool uh
[31:47] announcement really. So, it's
[31:48] essentially a whole uh version of the
[31:52] kind of DLSS suite of technologies. So,
[31:55] there's uh upsampling, there's
[31:57] upsampling with dnoising, there's frame
[31:59] generation under a different name. And
[32:02] yeah, it's very very cool. It's got um
[32:05] you know some limitations but they've
[32:08] already demonstrated it by building an
[32:10] entire game with Sumo Digital which is
[32:13] about 2 hours which feels like a full
[32:15] length game for for a mobile uh mobile
[32:18] system and it seems to allow you know
[32:21] enough uh extra performance headroom
[32:23] that you can do some really cool uh more
[32:26] advanced graphical techniques on what is
[32:28] fundamentally a very low power device.
[32:31] So, they've demonstrated it with uh
[32:33] Unreal Engine 5 megal lights and they've
[32:35] got kind of an interesting cave system
[32:38] that has all these bioluminescent things
[32:40] in the background all drawing, you know,
[32:43] doing their own lighting and yeah, it's
[32:45] it's an interesting idea. I think the
[32:48] key limitation at the moment is that
[32:52] this is going to require future ARM
[32:55] hardware like I guess their next
[32:57] generation Mali GPU to work. So that
[33:01] means that until that hardware is
[33:03] actually in the hands of a significant
[33:05] number of people, you can't fully rely
[33:07] on it to produce a game, right? But what
[33:10] it does do is it makes the development
[33:12] process a lot quicker and easier as well
[33:15] because you don't have to bake out
[33:17] lighting and then see how it looks and
[33:19] then adjust things. You can, you know,
[33:21] have artists working and seeing their uh
[33:23] changes in real time. And then after you
[33:25] get to the end of that process,
[33:27] presumably you can then say, "Okay, and
[33:29] now we convert this to a baked
[33:30] alternative." So, it's still
[33:33] interesting. And the fact that they're
[33:34] releasing a toolkit and they're
[33:35] releasing all the assets from the game
[33:38] is a really cool move. And it seems
[33:40] like, you know, they just want to make
[33:41] sure that this level of technology is
[33:44] available to a whole new um, you know,
[33:47] platform, a whole new audience. And
[33:49] yeah, it's it's uh, fascinating. I think
[33:52] we'll probably have to wait until we see
[33:54] the game running, you know, on real
[33:56] hardware to get a better sense of how it
[33:58] does in terms of image quality. Uh
[34:00] certainly what they've released looks
[34:02] like the image quality isn't, you know,
[34:04] certainly the highest end that you would
[34:06] expect from a PC or a console. And there
[34:09] are some question marks over um
[34:11] performance as well, especially in terms
[34:14] of touch latency and how that interacts
[34:16] with uh 30 fps to a 60 fps uh frame rate
[34:20] upscale aka frame gen. So very very
[34:23] interesting so far. I think you know as
[34:25] an open source open kind of project it's
[34:28] it's really worth um you know mentioning
[34:31] and and highlighting and and gives a lot
[34:33] uh of interesting ideas for mobile
[34:36] developers no doubt but yeah really
[34:37] cool. Yeah, they put out a video asset
[34:40] and um
[34:42] sort of a bit sort of uh curious about
[34:46] why they did that because they're
[34:48] talking about, you know, upscaling frame
[34:50] generation, frame generation, and then
[34:51] they put out a 30 fps video.
[34:54] >> So, you know, show us the frame
[34:56] generation, please, because we're not
[34:58] seeing it in a 30 fps video. It's just
[35:00] kind of bizarre. But yeah, it's an
[35:02] interesting step forward. But, you know,
[35:03] I'm there've been kind of lots of um
[35:06] technology demos we've seen in the past
[35:08] for mobile that, you know, never really
[35:11] translate into final products and there
[35:13] isn't really any kind of need for them
[35:15] because, you know, cutting edge
[35:16] rendering on a mobile phone isn't really
[35:19] done anymore. So, I'm very curious as to
[35:20] why they did this. But, you know, the
[35:22] the sentiment behind it that, you know,
[35:24] to to actually go open with all of these
[35:27] technologies, I think is uh is to be
[35:29] commended. Um, do you have any thoughts
[35:31] there John?
[35:32] >> Sure. Yeah, I mean I think the open
[35:34] nature of this uh is actually
[35:36] potentially important if it can take
[35:38] off. I mean just being open doesn't
[35:40] necessarily mean success, but I mean
[35:42] they're targeting mid to lower-end
[35:44] devices and mobile in general where
[35:46] there's more sensitivity towards battery
[35:48] life. And Android traditionally, they
[35:50] haven't really had a solution for this.
[35:52] Uh other solutions like on Apple for
[35:54] instance, the metal effect stuff that's
[35:56] all closed proprietary, right?
[35:58] >> DLSS itself proprietary.
[36:01] uh FSR is and XESS are kind of open, but
[36:05] there's still more fixed functiony and
[36:07] there's still limitations there. So,
[36:09] this is kind of like, you know, this
[36:11] feels like a pretty awesome solution,
[36:14] especially when targeting those mobile
[36:16] devices. Uh, it could be good for
[36:21] basically allowing lower res rendering
[36:24] on mobile where battery is so important,
[36:27] but a lot of the other stuff, I'm not
[36:29] sure how important that'll actually wind
[36:30] up being in practice. talking to people
[36:33] that are into like big mobile games for
[36:35] instance, uh the high-end Unreal stuff
[36:38] for typically isn't very popular or
[36:42] there's issues with it because it is
[36:44] notorious for just being heavier on the
[36:46] phone, draining the battery faster,
[36:48] taking longer to load up. Uh one of the
[36:51] things that helped make like Mihoyo
[36:53] stuff so popular like Genchin is that it
[36:56] looks beautiful. Uh, but it's actually
[36:59] like pretty lightweight, right? It's a
[37:02] Unity based game, but it's it's fairly
[37:04] lightweight. It's quick to load. It
[37:05] actually runs quite well. Um, but maybe
[37:10] this could help make some of the more
[37:12] advanced stuff a little bit more
[37:14] reasonable. We'll see. I don't know.
[37:17] It's It's good though. It's always good
[37:18] to see additional open standards uh
[37:21] dropped into the market. It just reminds
[37:23] me of um what what was the uh the
[37:26] standard prior to Vulcan? Uh
[37:30] >> no, no, no. There was that one that I'm
[37:32] forgetting the name that was developed
[37:34] before Vulcan.
[37:37] >> Mantle.
[37:38] >> Mantle. Yes. Remember Mantle?
[37:40] >> I do.
[37:43] >> I don't know. That just sprung to mind.
[37:46] >> Okay. Yeah. Mantle. What a what a time.
[37:49] That was awesome.
[37:50] >> Yes.
[37:50] >> Uh okay. Uh, let's move on. Um, I got a
[37:53] question here from Andreas Wright. Hey,
[37:55] DFO over Overlords. I'm not sure who
[37:57] we're overlording over, but whatever.
[38:00] Uh, hey DF overlords. Due to leaks on
[38:02] Nvidia reportedly releasing 50 series
[38:05] super cards, do you think these are
[38:06] necessary? And what specs prices should
[38:09] we be expecting? So, yeah, I mean, we
[38:12] were kind of expecting this this year,
[38:13] but owing to the memory crisis, it never
[38:15] happened. But um the 50 series line was
[38:18] to receive a refresh which would have
[38:21] seen um essentially uh cards that have
[38:24] got 2 GB memory modules replaced with 3
[38:26] GB memory modules. So um an RTX 5070
[38:30] would go up from 12 GB to 18 GB which
[38:34] sounds pretty awesome, right? And 16 to
[38:36] 24 for like the 5070 Ti and 5080 and you
[38:40] know not too bad. potentially the idea
[38:44] of a 12 GB RTX 5060. I would be super on
[38:48] board with that. Um Will,
[38:51] what do you think?
[38:53] >> Yeah, I mean I think in a normal year
[38:56] this definitely would have happened and
[38:58] it would have made sense. And I mean I
[39:00] think one of the major criticisms of
[39:04] Nvidia graphics cards over you know the
[39:06] past 5 years has been that they haven't
[39:09] really kept pace in terms of VRAM
[39:11] allocations certainly compared to AMD
[39:14] which seems to see 16 GB as more of a
[39:16] standard for a mid-range and above card.
[39:19] So you know using more advanced memory
[39:22] uh chips that have 3 GB instead of two
[39:24] that makes total sense. It allows them
[39:26] to not have to change much else in terms
[39:29] of the design and still bump up the VRAM
[39:31] to levels which you know I feel 12 GB is
[39:34] is extremely reasonable for a 60 series
[39:38] uh class product. So
[39:39] >> absolutely
[39:40] >> I think it makes a ton of sense in terms
[39:42] of pricing. It's hard to say. Normally
[39:44] the super uh lineup kind of replaces the
[39:48] original cards at the same price because
[39:50] those original cards will have you know
[39:52] gone down in price in the intervening
[39:55] you know months or years but given the
[39:58] current memory crisis and how much
[40:01] everything costs that extends to VRAM so
[40:03] it's hard to see if that is necessarily
[40:05] what we should expect. Um, I ran some
[40:09] numbers and I'm kind of thinking 5060
[40:13] super would be 349 to 399 possibly. 5070
[40:18] super 559 5070 Ti super 749 and 5080
[40:23] super 9999 again if they're kind of
[40:25] replacing those original cards at a
[40:28] similar price. So I think you know
[40:31] competitively these look really good but
[40:34] again we're in such an unprecedented
[40:36] time at the moment that it's really hard
[40:38] to predict with any level of certainty
[40:40] what these things are going to cost but
[40:41] you know the the core concept is at
[40:43] least solid and I would welcome this.
[40:46] Yeah, I think um Nvidia in a hard place,
[40:48] right? Because if the um next generation
[40:51] GPUs have also been delayed, which seems
[40:53] likely, right? It's not beyond the
[40:55] realms of possibility, then you can you
[40:58] go 2 years without a new GeForce product
[41:00] launch.
[41:02] >> Uh that would be asking quite a lot,
[41:04] right? Um the question is availability
[41:06] of these um higher density memory
[41:09] modules and how much it costs them to
[41:11] buy, which we just don't know. So
[41:13] pricing could be anything really. We
[41:15] just have no idea whatsoever.
[41:17] >> The weird thing is from from my
[41:18] perspective is that we are in the middle
[41:20] of a memory crisis. We have seen um
[41:23] comments from Asher Sharma from Xbox
[41:25] about you know ballooning prices and and
[41:28] yet you can still buy um an RX970 XT and
[41:33] a 9070 for reasonable prices. Uh the
[41:37] other week you could buy an RTX 5070 in
[41:39] the UK for less than its original launch
[41:42] price. I'm wondering what's going on
[41:44] there. Is there is there something in in
[41:46] terms of the sort of supply chain that
[41:48] we're missing here? Um because those
[41:51] prices, you know, they're not bad.
[41:54] Certainly nowhere near as bad as what's
[41:55] been happening on the SSD front and um
[41:58] on the DDR5 side of things. So, I'm I'm
[42:01] kind of curious as to how that's all
[42:03] sort of panning out.
[42:04] >> Uh but John, new graphics cards, even if
[42:07] they are essentially the same generation
[42:09] with more memory, that would be pretty
[42:10] good, right? I mean, sure, but we
[42:12] already have a product coming out again.
[42:14] It's called the uh RTX 3060.
[42:17] >> Yes, somehow it has returned.
[42:21] >> Uh I mean, sure. Yeah.
[42:22] >> Style.
[42:24] >> It's more cards would be nice. I guess
[42:29] it's just we're we're still in this
[42:31] weird spot with pricing and
[42:33] availability, so it's really hard to
[42:34] say. And launching anything new is just
[42:37] going to sell out quickly. They probably
[42:39] won't make that many. I don't know is
[42:42] we're we're still in a weird I said the
[42:43] other day like it feels like they they
[42:46] made it to the 5090 and then they like
[42:48] put the you know they they marked their
[42:51] spot on the rock and they're like all
[42:52] right we've we've gone far enough let's
[42:55] go back down the mountain and like it's
[42:58] like we're are we going to see anything
[43:00] beyond that level anytime soon any
[43:03] >> soon? No the 6090 I guess possibly yes
[43:06] but that's going to be some time away.
[43:09] Yeah someday.
[43:09] >> I don't know. It's just the it feels
[43:11] like the whole GPU situation is really
[43:14] strange right now and there isn't that
[43:17] much demand I think for new faster cards
[43:20] at the moment. Like they're they're
[43:23] already very fast for all software
[43:24] available. Um the prices are really
[43:28] really high. I I think at this point
[43:31] most gamers would be like well if I have
[43:33] cash for a better graphics card that
[43:36] probably already exists and I'll just
[43:37] put my money on that. You know what I
[43:39] mean?
[43:40] >> Yeah, I do think that the sentiment
[43:42] might be changing, John, because uh it's
[43:44] interesting you make that point that
[43:45] when the 5070 came out, you know, it was
[43:47] basically um it was it was badly
[43:51] reviewed because it wasn't that much
[43:53] better than a 4070 Super. Um and um
[43:57] obviously Nvidia made these crazy
[44:00] comparisons with the 4090 and uh that
[44:03] didn't work particularly well. However,
[44:06] the 5070, you know, it's it's a good
[44:09] card. I think you could do path tracing
[44:11] on it. You could do multi-frame
[44:13] generation. I could play Pragmata with
[44:14] path tracing at 1440p
[44:17] um you know, at like 160 frames pers.
[44:20] It's it's all right, you know. And I
[44:23] guess the fact is that when the 5070
[44:25] came out, you couldn't buy a 4070 Super
[44:28] anymore. So, the comparison there was
[44:30] kind of a bit strange. I think there's
[44:32] obviously a um push back against the
[44:35] fact that um raw performance hadn't
[44:37] improved. I think that's a valid point,
[44:39] right? But ultimately, if the scope of
[44:42] the requirements of games isn't actually
[44:44] changing either, then effectively it's a
[44:47] replacement product that's got some nice
[44:49] extra features, which you know is it's
[44:52] okay. I think if I was unable to play
[44:54] like uh great games on the 5070 or or,
[44:58] you know, I wasn't able to do path
[44:59] tracing on it, that'd be a different
[45:00] thing. But it's it's kind of been okay.
[45:03] Um let's move on to another question
[45:06] here. And um yeah, what can we say about
[45:09] this one? Spot asks um please can you
[45:13] summarize Intel and and Nvidia
[45:16] suspected collaboration
[45:19] and what this means for the future of
[45:21] Arc? Uh we're going back a while here,
[45:23] aren't we, Will? But um there is it's
[45:26] not a suspected collaboration. There is
[45:28] a collaboration between Nvidia and Intel
[45:30] and I believe Nvidia owns good chunk of
[45:33] Intel stock as a result of that
[45:35] collaboration. But it is potentially
[45:38] quite exciting what they're doing there,
[45:39] right?
[45:40] >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think the
[45:42] the core idea is that there will be an
[45:44] Intel SOC for like a laptop or a gaming
[45:47] handheld or whatever. And instead of an
[45:50] ARC graphics portion, it'll have an RTX
[45:52] graphics portion, which could be, you
[45:55] know, potentially uh more powerful,
[45:58] could have a higher top end. And
[46:00] probably the most important thing is it
[46:01] gets access to DLSS then, which is from
[46:04] what we've seen on the Switch 2 and from
[46:07] obviously just general PC gaming is the
[46:10] best uh upscaler package generally. So
[46:14] yeah, it's it's pretty exciting. It's
[46:16] interesting to think about potential
[46:18] products that could use this. Certainly,
[46:20] you know, Intel just launched their own
[46:22] gaming handhelds powered by ARC
[46:24] graphics, and we'll have to see how they
[46:26] do in terms of power and performance and
[46:29] everything else, but this kind of gives
[46:31] them another option for a co-branded
[46:33] device that is able to potentially hit
[46:35] higher performance levels and do so with
[46:37] better upscaling.
[46:38] >> Mhm. Yeah. What do you think about the
[46:40] future of Arc? Because um there have
[46:43] been lots of rumors as usual. I mean,
[46:45] seems to be like pretty much every few
[46:47] months there's a new rumor that Arc is
[46:49] in terms of its discrete graphics cards
[46:51] is a thing of the past, but then you see
[46:53] Panther Lake where you see a very very
[46:55] good integrated solution. What do you
[46:57] think is the future of Arc?
[47:00] >> Oh gosh, it's hard to say, right? I
[47:01] mean, I I get the idea that maybe Intel
[47:04] is a bit like Microsoft and there might
[47:06] be different factions within the company
[47:08] that see different paths for it.
[47:11] Um because you know certainly we have a
[47:14] lot of people that are genuinely seem to
[47:16] be really big fans of ARC internally and
[47:18] want it to do well and you know have
[47:20] plans for all these you know discrete
[47:22] graphics cards and mobile chips and
[47:24] everything else and the work that Intel
[47:27] engineers have done to you know make it
[47:29] a viable solution both discrete and in
[47:31] terms of uh you know laptop integrated
[47:34] has been you know really promising. So
[47:37] from that point of view, you would say
[47:39] that the Nvidia stuff is maybe, you
[47:42] know, just a contractual obligation or
[47:44] it's something that, you know, is not
[47:46] going to be the main thing going
[47:47] forwards. But I think it does give
[47:50] perhaps other factions within Intel that
[47:53] don't think that ARC is worth the
[47:54] investment a good kind of get out clause
[47:57] to say, "Ah, but we don't need to do our
[47:59] own things. We can just ask Nvidia, who
[48:02] are already really good at this, to just
[48:03] handle these things going forward." So
[48:06] yeah, it's obviously all kind of based
[48:08] on rumors. We don't really know what
[48:10] these first products that are um you
[48:13] know, combining these two uh Intel and
[48:16] Nvidia uh SOC's to you know, we don't
[48:20] know what they'll what they're going to
[48:21] look like and we'll have to wait until
[48:22] they're actually out and we can test
[48:23] them in terms of performance and
[48:25] features and everything else.
[48:26] >> But yeah, it's it's a complicated
[48:28] situation for sure. Yeah, I think you
[48:31] know ultimately it is just going to be
[48:33] um integrated processors with a Intel
[48:35] CPU and Nvidia GPU which sounds like you
[48:38] know um the scale of it could be
[48:41] relatively limited. It could be
[48:42] something bigger. I mean in the past
[48:44] Intel actually did a similar
[48:45] collaboration with AMD uh which was um
[48:49] very very very shortlived. you had like
[48:52] an Intel uh CPU and like a Vega GPU, not
[48:56] the Radeon 7, I'm afraid there, John
[48:59] Fury X,
[49:01] >> my favorite,
[49:03] >> but you know, potentially this could be
[49:04] really, really cool. um you know
[49:06] bringing those technologies together. I
[49:08] think it could be quite compelling from
[49:10] a gaming perspective maybe more
[49:12] compelling than the Windows on ARM stuff
[49:14] that Nvidia is pursuing at the moment
[49:16] because it bypasses the whole ARM
[49:18] situation and um Intel CPU cores are
[49:21] actually pretty good. Right.
[49:22] >> So, you know, potentially good stuff
[49:24] there. what it means for the future of
[49:26] ARC. I honestly think that's a separate
[49:28] discussion because you know um releasing
[49:31] a product with an Nvidia GPU doesn't
[49:33] mean that you know you you suddenly have
[49:36] access to Nvidia IP and um if Intel want
[49:39] to be competitive on the graphics front
[49:41] on the AI front they need good GPUs I
[49:44] don't think ARC is going away the
[49:46] consumerf facing side of it from gaming
[49:49] might change not really sure at the
[49:51] moment um what do you what do you make
[49:54] of this suspected collaboration, John.
[49:58] >> I mean, it seems not that different from
[50:01] uh what we've seen already with like,
[50:03] you know, laptops with Intel CPUs and
[50:06] Nvidia GPUs. I guess it's just would be
[50:09] an integration.
[50:10] >> Yeah.
[50:10] >> Uh this just feels like an a way to
[50:13] offer a high-end option while still
[50:15] leveraging Intel CPU cores because as we
[50:18] know, ARC doesn't really play in the
[50:20] high-end GPU market at all. So I think
[50:23] ARC would remain for now as a part of
[50:27] their mid to lower-end stack and you
[50:30] they could deploy Nvidia technology
[50:32] working together with them and higherend
[50:35] systems basically right. Um so that's
[50:39] basically the idea I guess and that
[50:41] sounds good to me.
[50:43] >> Um going to round off with a final quick
[50:45] question. Uh this one comes from KBAC.
[50:47] Uh, what do you think of the rumors of
[50:49] Sega supposedly working on a lowowered
[50:51] handheld akin to the Everade handhelds?
[50:54] Uh, have you heard any rumblings on the
[50:56] digital web or is this pure hogwash,
[50:59] John? Is it pure hogwash? Is there
[51:01] something of it, do you think?
[51:02] >> I don't know. I haven't heard anything
[51:04] about this rumor. Uh, that's interesting
[51:06] though because it may it's Evercade has
[51:11] quietly Blaze Entertainment. They have
[51:13] quietly carved themselves a weirdly
[51:15] successful little niche. Evercade
[51:18] devices are really cool. Like they're
[51:20] lowcost handheld units that play
[51:22] cartridge-based games. And they've now
[51:25] got like hundreds of games on that
[51:26] thing, including games that otherwise
[51:29] don't really have easily accessible
[51:31] physical versions at all. And just due
[51:34] to that low cost, it's just like a fun
[51:36] little system to collect for. And um it
[51:39] plays well. And some of the units have
[51:40] TV out. there's a console as well. Like
[51:43] it's just it's a it's a fun device and
[51:45] the price is low enough that it's
[51:48] managed to find that audience. So maybe
[51:50] something somebody like Sega sees that
[51:52] and says, "Hey, we could do that."
[51:53] Because unlike the mini consoles which
[51:55] are like locked down devices, this could
[51:58] be a way to sort of more easily bring
[52:02] their classic catalog back again
[52:05] somehow. But they've done that enough
[52:06] where I feel like they'd have to find
[52:09] some kind of spin to make this more
[52:11] interesting. I I don't know. And also
[52:15] like doing a handheld
[52:19] well to make it actually compelling is
[52:21] tricky in terms of screen quality,
[52:23] screen selection. Like if they just
[52:26] slapped like a 16x9 LCD of some sort
[52:28] like in there, that would be pretty
[52:30] crappy for for that, I have to say. Uh,
[52:33] but if they actually properly source
[52:35] like a good 4x3 panel, you know, they
[52:37] take care of the treatment correctly,
[52:39] something like what was in the Ambernick
[52:41] RG477M,
[52:44] a panel like that maybe too expensive
[52:46] for what they want to do would be pretty
[52:48] nuts. Uh, in a little dedicated handheld
[52:50] unit. So, I don't know if they're going
[52:52] to do it. I'd like to see them try
[52:54] something. I still have my Game Gear
[52:56] Mini, though, which or no, it's the Game
[52:58] Gear Micro. I don't know if you ever use
[53:00] one, Rich, but the screen it's like the
[53:01] size of a thumbnail. Like literally,
[53:03] it's very very small.
[53:05] >> Yeah. To which my question is why? I
[53:08] mean,
[53:08] >> it was just it was a fun it was a fun
[53:10] little toy in that case.
[53:12] >> Um I guess from my perspective, the
[53:14] question is like what kind of games do
[53:16] they want to run on it? Cuz I know the
[53:18] games that I really want to play and it
[53:20] would be like, you know, the Dreamcast
[53:21] and the Saturns, that sort of
[53:23] >> arcade games is what I would want.
[53:25] >> The arcade games. Yeah. You know, the
[53:26] model one, two, and three games. I mean,
[53:28] that would be awesome. a handheld with,
[53:30] you know, model one, two, and three
[53:32] titles on it would just be incredible.
[53:34] Um, it would,
[53:35] >> but, you know, all of that sort of
[53:37] custom hardware,
[53:39] how's the emulation on that could be a
[53:40] bit tricky. Uh, I don't know. Um, well,
[53:44] do you have any thoughts on this?
[53:46] >> Um, I don't have any thoughts on this
[53:47] particularly, but I just wanted to say
[53:49] that I already have the uh Sonic the
[53:51] Hedgehog mechanical keyboard.
[53:55] That
[53:55] >> our audio listeners can't see it, but he
[53:57] held that up and it is indeed very Sonic
[54:00] the Hedgehogy.
[54:01] >> Hold it up again. I want to see it. Just
[54:04] >> This is the show and tell portion of the
[54:05] show.
[54:06] >> Yeah.
[54:06] >> Yeah. Mhm.
[54:07] >> Wow. Okay. That's That's quite nice.
[54:10] >> This is made by High Ground. They also
[54:12] do a different design in black for uh
[54:15] you know, shadow obviously
[54:17] >> and they do various mouse pads and this
[54:18] is currently what is on my uh PC for
[54:21] testing purposes.
[54:22] >> Huh. I like it. Looks cool.
[54:24] >> Okay, good stuff.
[54:25] >> So, you know, if if they want to take
[54:27] any design notes from that, then, you
[54:29] know, get in touch.
[54:30] >> Fair enough. Okay, what a great way to
[54:32] end the show because that was indeed the
[54:33] last question. So, if you enjoyed it,
[54:35] please do like, subscribe, share, that
[54:36] kind of stuff. Ring bells for apparently
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