[00:02] close to every game in a casino every game in the casino can be beat under the right conditions which may not happen very often we could not lose at this game and we lasted 15 months at this game it's this dark alley this guy knows
[00:17] I'm coming with $20,000 every step I took I'm like I should not do I should not go there I should not do this so now we just have to smuggle the money out he points down and we look and there are $100 bills cascading out of his pant
[00:32] legs all over the [Music] apprenticeship and I'm joined with legendary Advantage player Richard munchkin Richard has beaten perhaps every game in a casino with the edge
[00:46] Fame and for those APS traveling on the road you certainly know him as one of the hosts of the gambling within Edge podcast Richard how are you doing good good happy to be here well thank you for joining us it it's something I would
[00:59] have not even asked over over the years until recently when you've been willing until recently when you've been willing to show your face to the world yeah well to show your face to the world yeah well I I I'm sure I'll regret it uh sometime
[01:12] in the future uh because this has happened before where I thought I'm retired uh which I've done many times as many listeners to the podcast know so um I'm sure there'll be some opportunity come up where I will kick myself for for
[01:27] having done these well we caught you in in a rare window where you're willing to do it and I'm I'm I'm grateful hopefully you don't regret this your first Advantage play was playing back Amon for money is it true that you put yourself
[01:40] through college by playing back Amon I actually started playing poker before I started playing back Ammon but it it it was a pretty short window before I went from poker in into back Ammon and I went through college playing both bamon and
[01:53] poer yeah and was that stressful or was it pretty consistent money um was it was fairly consistent money um it wasn't that stressful just because it was more
[02:05] like having a part-time job because I was a full-time student so yeah I mean yeah it was stressful when you lose but um but it wasn't that bad was it
[02:17] mostly weekends or or seven nights a week it was every day every day uh poker was maybe once or twice a week but uh back Ammon was every day if I wasn't at school I was at the back Amon Club oh wow and were there any other Nicholls
[02:33] one of our our Pros he wants to know if there are any other non-c casino games that you've played for money oh I'm trying to think of games I haven't played for money I mean I hung out in this bridge and bamon Club bridge
[02:47] clubs are often a hot of places to gamble at other games and so um yeah bridge and backham and Jin rumy peanuckle uh cribbage and and one of the
[03:01] peanuckle uh cribbage and and one of the funnier ones was uh the backham and Pros when there was nobody around if we didn't want to play against each other uh which usually we didn't we were always looking for the weaker players
[03:14] always looking for the weaker players but uh we got some hot and heavy mealor games which I don't know if you're familiar with this game but it's it's familiar with this game but it's it's kind of a kids game uh where you have um
[03:27] a it's a card game but with it uses a special deck and you have sort of mileage that you're trying to go and um anyway it it it'd be I guess the
[03:39] equivalent of playing Uno for money I would clean up against my kids no all their allowance money would would flow this way yeah I know Joe has been into uh card counting at UNO I I heard on one of the earlier podcasts and
[03:53] uh S sd1 one of one of our other Pros he wanted to know if you take the money out of it what's been more fun beating Casino or beating some of these other Casino or beating some of these other card games chess or or back G I mean I
[04:05] have more fun it's it's not about the winning the money that's fun it's about uh when you're playing with friends and other people it it's about the people you know what I mean so it's much more enjoyable to play poker with a bunch of
[04:21] people you know or or whatever the game is um casinos it's more of a satisfaction of okay he you're going to make the rules and I'll abide by the
[04:33] rules and I'm going to find a way to beat you yeah and and so there's a satisfaction there but but when I think about Blackjack about Blackjack trips um all of the ones the the the
[04:46] good memories are about either the big comp dinners with the whole team or the hotel room where there' be four of us you know in one hotel room you know two
[04:59] guys sleep on the floor or whatever when we easily could have afforded to each had our own room but we all wanted to be together yeah you know um so yeah that's the enjoyable part is the the people absolutely that's why I tell people you
[05:13] know team play isn't the most profitable things we did but it's by far the most memorable and the best the the most fun I ever had yeah yeah yeah yeah I yeah I I ever had yeah yeah yeah yeah I yeah I agree and I I've said often um that if I
[05:27] had to play alone I wouldn't play I you know playing Blackjack alone for me was miserable I remember the last trip that I did by myself oh I don't know this was maybe I mean I just never played alone you know
[05:43] what I mean Russia was a time I played alone it was horrible um but the last trip was maybe maybe 10 or 15 years ago I made a trip to Iowa in the middle of winter and I I was just why am I doing this you
[05:58] know just H it was terrible you've told the story before on on our podcast and you did recently on Las Vegas advisor and and that that we created about how you got
[06:10] into card counting and basically it it took someone else banking you for you to really get your start and my question for you is if you hadn't met Alan Woods you would have gotten into Advantage play well I was already playing
[06:26] Blackjack when I met Allen but I was only betting for small Stakes cuz I didn't have a bank roll so I'm sure that I would have been in gambling my whole I would have been in gambling my whole life regardless of of meeting Allen um
[06:41] I'm not sure exactly how it would have happened but but I I would have been in happened but but I I would have been in gambling my my life and when you were playing initially yourself you were also a dealer how helpful do you think that
[06:54] was being a dealer while learning to count cards tremendously helpful count cards tremendously helpful tremendously helpful it it not I was a dealer I was also I guess now they're called dual rates but so I was on the
[07:08] floor occasionally but uh I really attribute that attribute that um I've had very very few bad backoff situations and I attribute that to having been a dealer and on the floor
[07:25] which gave me I think the ability to sort of see when problems were starting sort of see when problems were starting and get out before anything really went bad did did you have any responsibilities of trying to deter or
[07:41] catch card counters when you were working for casinos first of all I I called The Castaways it's where the Mirage is today and we had single deck
[07:53] stand 17 every card counter in the world came to this casino so um one time I was on the floor
[08:07] and now I I should preface this our shift boss knew how to count cards but our backup shift boss was one of these oldtimers who had come from of these oldtimers who had come from Newport Kentucky who had no clue and so
[08:22] when the shift boss was off the backup was the boss and so one day the shift boss is off I'm on the floor I come in from a break and the backup shift boss
[08:37] says uh I had a pit four tables and the backup shift boss says um there's a guy on table three and I think he's I think he's a student that's what they used to call students of the game yeah and uh and I look over and it's a guy I know
[08:52] and I look over and it's a guy I know very well his name is Arthur and uh I later played on a team with Arthur but I go to the the table it's a single deck and I go Arthur you're putting heat heat on me and he goes I'm putting heat
[09:07] on the Pit Boss how can I put heat on you and I said well you know the shift boss wants me to do my job and and you know see if you're counting cards and um the dealer has just dealt the first round of this single deck and it's like
[09:22] round of this single deck and it's like plus six and he goes oh great and I go well I think you need to play at least one more hand and uh so he shoves out like a $200 bet going from a quarter to 200 and uh he wins the hand and he gets
[09:37] 200 and uh he wins the hand and he gets up and he goes and uh I go back out into over and he goes uh so what about that guy I go he only played two hands I so I don't know what happened um so yes I
[09:51] mean they would uh I just I didn't bust people I just didn't I had more fun talking to them which would freak them out but um yeah but I I didn't bust them
[10:03] I remember one time I broke in at the Golden Nugget uh on Fremont Street and I was standing one time uh on a dead spread and I look at the table next to me it's a six deck game there's a guy sitting there and he's got about
[10:19] $1,500 in green and red and he's betting $5 a hand right and I'm like okay I know what's going on here and uh the the account gets negative and he gets up
[10:34] with all of his chips and he's about to walk away and I go I have one seat open I have a dead table and he looks at me and he goes oh I'm just leaving I'm going sit down you should play here right and uh he goes well okay you know
[10:52] so he sits down and he puts $5 in the Square I shuffle the six decks and I take the cut card and I put it like halfway in the shoe like I'm going to cut three decks and then I run it all the way to the back
[11:06] then I run it all the way to the back and I cut like 15 cards and his eyes get like this game and uh so anyway um he was one of
[11:18] the Czech team which um sort of became famous in the Ken Houston books and that's that's how I ended up meeting the check team was uh from that encounter but you know I left the table before the shoe ended
[11:32] I left the table before the shoe ended and when I came back the deal the dealer that had taken me out said what the hell did you do I almost ran out of cards in it too thin oh I've had dealers like you and it
[11:48] is the best feeling you know while I'm thinking about it the Golden Nugget I have to tell you another story I uh I was on a double deck and there's one was on a double deck and there's one player a woman middle AED woman and um I
[12:02] realized like she's counting cards and I had never seen this before and um and I said where did you learn to count and she was very matter of fact about it not
[12:16] nervous nothing and um you know she said oh I got this book called plank Blackjack is a business and she was her husband was there on some convention and she thought you know if I'm going to go there I should learn how to do this
[12:29] whatever anyway so I was dealing her dealing to her and we're talking about dealing to her and we're talking about it and this boss comes up to me and and to the player so they're facing the opposite way when they want to say
[12:42] something in your ear and he goes I want you to deal down to the last card and Shuffle in the middle of the hand and I go
[12:54] okay and he walks away and I say the woman you're going to love this game so I'm dealing down to the last C to this woman and finally it it's time for my break and I come off the game and I go to the boss and he's standing there with
[13:09] another guy and I go what was that all about and he starts laughing and he points at the other boss he goes this idiot thinks that lady's counting cards wow when when was this oh I was at the
[13:24] Golden Nugget in 1977 wow when did cat get into because she was the first female card counter there was also this woman that Ken Houston called engga um that uh I don't know who was actually first but um there
[13:39] were a few um but you know they were younger not you know um and I I hadn't met cat at that point I had never seen a woman card counter at that point but um uh yeah cat got there before me I think she started in about
[13:54] 1975 I know you started off and you had a rough what 167 hour losing streak and a rough what 167 hour losing streak and you kind of I quit you quit Y and what what brought you back in I had a very close friend who was a backham and
[14:10] player from Chicago that uh moved out to Vegas about the same time I did and um he also was counting he was on that team with me with Alan Woods you know where I
[14:23] was losing and he was the one winning anyway uh when that team broke up and I quit he joined Allen's old team that Allen he joined Allen's old team that Allen was leaving behind and they started
[14:38] winning like crazy and he came to me after about three months and he said you got to give this another shot like we're just making money like crazy um you know just making money like crazy um you know just give it another try and I said okay
[14:52] and um and so I joined another team and started playing and I started winning and I was like oh okay you know and how forms of Advantage play Oh almost immediately um because the shuffles were
[15:07] so simple back then uh they they were all very simple one pass shuffles and at would say nobody can count a six deck shoe all the heat was on the single and shoe all the heat was on the single and double deck games so um you know you
[15:22] added in the ability to bet big off the top by Shuffle tracking um so yeah I started Shuffle tracking right away and then how quickly did you add other other forms of Advantage play um pretty quickly I added whole card play um I
[15:37] didn't learn about uh a sequencing until the late 9s okay and that that happened because um uh Al Francesco who was the guy who
[15:49] um uh Al Francesco who was the guy who invented the whole big player concept uh he was about 70 at the time and he decided to form an a sequencing team and decided to form an a sequencing team and he asked as me to be part of it and um
[16:02] and so that's when I started sequencing was in the late 9s and of all the advantage play skills that you've learned what would you say was the most challenging uh probably the the sequencing yeah the sequencing is is
[16:16] sequencing yeah the sequencing is is really mentally taxing and it reminds me really mentally taxing and it reminds me of uh I I played um tournament chess for a very short time and it reminded me of that you know this sort of of very
[16:30] focused concentration for a long period of time and you come away just exhausted even though you've just been sitting in a chair but um but it's also really a chair but um but it's also really fun um especially because
[16:45] sometimes you get situations where you know more than just an acis coming and know more than just an acis coming and um you know I I remember a um you know I I remember a particularly fun hand was um
[17:00] I was sequencing with my partner Daryl and we alternate right you upload one show download the next and you alternate so you can bet every so you can bet every shoe and um he had um ace deuce against
[17:16] shoe and um he had um ace deuce against a s and I give him the Double Down a s and I give him the Double Down signal and he gives me the question signal and he gives me the question signal and I give him Double Down and he
[17:29] doubles down and catches an eight oh wow and um you know so I mean really fun things can happen um you know when you have a good sequencing game yeah um someone someone else I know that that's done a bit of sequencing or or quite a
[17:44] bit said you feel like God when it works out yeah yeah yeah I mean the other thing that's that was a lot of fun I don't it was challenging for a different reason was um computer play was always challenging because wires would break
[18:00] you know you run back to the room and have to solder things and you there were just all kinds of technical problems to get it to work which nowadays the technology is so much better I'm sure that a lot of those problems would be
[18:16] gone but um that was that was challenging and at this point you've beaten probably close to every game in a casino is is is a quote a quote from you
[18:28] yeah every every game in the casino can be beat under under the right conditions which may not happen very often it might be a rare thing but but every game can you've been around a lot of advantaged players have you learned some of the
[18:45] characteristics that make someone good at becoming an advantage player or at becoming an advantage player or sticking with it thinking creatively um and and you know one of the things I learned in the movie business was that
[18:59] um people in the movie business often have tunnel vision if they're a costumer all they see is the clothes and if they're a makeup artist all they see is the makeup and when the sun is going down and you only have 15 minutes to get
[19:15] the shot it doesn't matter what the makeup is you know what I mean and they don't see the big picture and too many card counters only look at the Blackjack T tables and the penetration and think about the card counting game and they
[19:30] don't sort of widen their vision and start looking around the casino at what else is there you know um Don Johnson tells a story about walking into a casino and seeing Phil Ivy playing bakara and he's like Phil Ivy is not
[19:46] here gambling at bakara and went and sat at the table and Phil was like you know be playing here and Don was like I think it's a very good time for me to be playing here so so yeah I I had a situation where I walked into a casino
[20:03] situation where I walked into a casino one time saw a guy I had known for 20 one time saw a guy I had known for 20 years sitting at a bakra table and I was like he is not here gambling that is a game I need to go investigate when I get
[20:16] a chance you know um so yeah every game you you just have to pay attention I you you just have to pay attention I mean that's one of the big dangers that um you know one of the reasons that I didn't like to go on video is not just
[20:30] that the casinos uh know what I look like but other Advantage players when they see me playing you know some other game then suddenly they're going to be looking at why is he playing that game
[20:46] and there were many times where I would be on a table with other teammates and somebody would walk in the casino and we would all just have to get up and leave because we didn't want them watching what we were doing yeah that makes sense
[21:00] going back to hul caring at the time was there a legal precedent that you could do this it wasn't cheating or was were you Unsure how they would treat it well you Unsure how they would treat it well um so uh I knew Steve einbinder well um
[21:14] and that case was in 85 but we were not worried about it it 85 but we were not worried about it it did not bother us at all um and and also back then the dealers peaked under their tens
[21:27] and Aces to see if they had Blackjack so the prevalent whole card game was called a first baser where you're only seeing under 10 and Aces and um you know the
[21:39] games were so prevalent that if it wasn't 100% we didn't even bother um but no we were not worried about it the shoe computers that you guys were using to beat beat blackjack those were legal at the time but were they awkward what you
[21:56] said that a lot could go wrong was it cumers some or what was that experience like using them yeah first of all they were legal we we didn't do it when it were legal we we didn't do it when it was illegal and um that also I think was
[22:08] 85 yeah you know the whole card decision I think was earlier but 85 was when the I think was earlier but 85 was when the computers got um outlawed in Nevada and you know that one of the things that I always found amusing was whenever you
[22:23] would bring up back in the old days The Forum was bj21 Stanford Wongs for them Forum was bj21 Stanford Wongs for them and anytime somebody would bring up uh computers immediately people would respond and say they're illegal you'll
[22:36] jail I don't know anyone who ever went to jail for using a computer um and they assumed that because things were illegal in Nevada they were illegal
[22:50] everywhere so you know we played with computers in California up until on New Year's Eve of I believe it was 2003 when the law changed you know we were in a
[23:03] casino until like 10:30 at night when a a wire broke um and and how did you know when things those things happened well basically you lost communication you know suddenly you weren't getting any kind of response so you knew something
[23:19] had gone wrong a battery had died or a wire had broken things like that did ever heat up yeah so there were a couple of incidents this didn't happen to me or part of my team but I know other people who had
[23:33] incidents one guy was using a roulette computer and uh he was in the Fremont I believe and he started to feel like heat in his back and the computer was in his
[23:45] in his back and the computer was in his his back and uh he was you know it he thought our the computer is heating up and after a while smoke started coming out of his clothes and he had to hight tail it out of there yeah uh you know he
[23:58] had some kind of short that had happened and uh it had started a fire um and I I where that must have been must have been a scene guy running out with smoke
[24:11] coming out of his clothes as a person who's put quite a bit of effort into the ACT blending into a casino do you think that your theater background was helpful for that I do think that was helpful although I I changed over the years and
[24:27] although I I changed over the years and and played with a friend who um paid me one of the highest compliments I ever had um he he said that PL that when he
[24:39] played with me it was as if I was invisible at the invisible at the table um and and so yeah I went to the opposite extreme and and tried to first of all once I started gambling with an
[24:53] edge I had to just shut up because people recognized my voice and um so people recognized my voice and um so yeah now I try to be just yeah now I try to be just as as vanilla as POS as unmemorable as
[25:09] possible in in team play you've utilized quite quite a few big players over the years any any memorable BPS or stories with with BPS oh we we we had this BP that you
[25:24] know we called a superstar he was just unbelievable he was Japanese and we we first started using him when we were playing in Korea um his name was Rocky
[25:36] and um we would play we would play an eight hour shift play we would play an eight hour shift and then the play caller would switch out and he would play another eight hour shift and he was immaculately dressed he
[25:55] shift and he was immaculately dressed he just had the greatest look just had the greatest look and you just could not ask for any and and he followed directions perfectly he was just a machine it was yeah anyway he
[26:10] was fantastic he was our best BP ever did he have a good act well his Act was to sit there like a stone I mean yeah he didn't talk he didn't you know and he was he had a Japanese passport he spoke fluent Japanese I mean he lived in
[26:26] fluent Japanese I mean he lived in America but um yeah and and even when they finally tried to Bar him in Korea he told them he said if you do this I will go on the television in the news in Tokyo and you will never get another
[26:42] player from Japan and they immediately backed down and and said oh no no no no you you can you can still play you just can't bet so much you can only bet you
[26:54] know three hands of 1,000 instead of 3,000 and um but then they got smart and started barring the white guys and oh yeah you know so and perhap perhaps it's that same story of of Korea but I'm
[27:08] curious if you can share your most profitable Casino in Casino play you've done Korea I think Total Money taken out of
[27:21] Korea W would have been the most but that was over a three-year period um that that lasted um most profitable single play I
[27:34] lasted um most profitable single play I still can't really talk about um but uh actually most of the really really profitable plays are things I can't talk profitable plays are things I can't talk about sure so fair enough um maybe you
[27:48] could talk about this what's the most fun play you've done in a casino well yeah yeah yeah okay so a really the really fun play was um darl and I played a sequencing game where um I described before you know we
[28:06] would alternate sequencing and um and that was that was a lot of fun that was a lot of fun the game was so strong we just we just could not lo I mean we could not lose at this game it that's and when you find a game
[28:22] like that where you just you can't lose um you can get very creative in how to take the money out without causing a ripple and um and we lasted 15 months at
[28:36] ripple and um and we lasted 15 months at this game um and and even then when they this game um and and even then when they finally backed us off um the shift upstairs and I think they're making a mistake but they told me I have to tell
[28:49] you you can't play Blackjack anymore wow and um yeah so um that it was a really and um yeah so um that it was a really fun play so you spent 3 years in Korea and you shared with us a story at a at a private event about e exchanging some of
[29:05] the currency do you mind sharing that story with us the first time I went to story with us the first time I went to Korea I'd never been to Asia um and um Korea I'd never been to Asia um and um and and actually um that's how I how
[29:20] that happened was kind of interesting too um so I got a call from Alan Woods too um so I got a call from Alan Woods the guy who launched me uh as a player and he said I have a game for you to go play it's an advantage off the top uh
[29:35] and I'll put up all the money and you know we'll split it and I said you know what I'm playing with the team at the moment and I can't go play on my own and moment and I can't go play on my own and he said well how about um you the whole
[29:48] team can go play and whatever you guys were going to bet uh just bet twice as much and I'll take half the bank and I said okay so now I was the first one
[30:00] said okay so now I was the first one going to Korea and um Allan told me that uh when I got there you have to change the money on the black market because otherwise you'll take like 5 to 10% haircut if you try to change the money
[30:16] at the casino or at the bank and this is usually the case usually the casino is the worst place to change money in a foreign country so uh I said well how do I find the black market and he said uh call this guy Marty and one of the
[30:32] things you'll find when if there is a foreign game that is really good there's some card counter that found it and he just moved there right and and once you find that guy he can help you tremendously because he knows everything
[30:47] that's going on if he's been there a while anyway so I I get a hold of this guy Marty and Marty says okay let me take you to the black market so we go
[30:59] and there's this major shopping area in Korea called Ewan and he takes me off Korea called Ewan and he takes me off the main street and down to an alley and down the alley and the alley is filled with like open air stalls with fresh
[31:14] fish on ice and plus they're selling all kinds of crap you know futons and kinds of crap you know futons and t-shirts and and knockoff shoes um so he
[31:26] takes me down Fishel and then down a side street to this guy's house and um he starts giving chocolate to the guy's kids and they obviously know each other
[31:38] very well and Marty goes okay you know this is Mr Lee he'll take care of you I this is Mr Lee he'll take care of you I got to go Marty leaves so I go into the got to go Marty leaves so I go into the house and um it's a traditional korean
[31:51] house there's no furniture you sit on the floor the only thing there there's a corner and uh so he says how much do you want to change I say $20,000 he goes hundreds
[32:05] to change I say $20,000 he goes hundreds or smaller bills and he goes this is the price for hundreds this is the price for smaller bills and hundreds are worth more so I was like great yeah I want I have hundreds so um I take out the money
[32:19] he very carefully counts the $20,000 he puts it in the safe he closes $20,000 he puts it in the safe he closes the door he says come back at 7 o' and I'm like no no no no give me my money back he's like no problem just come 7:00
[32:33] I'm like no big problem give me back my money and he says it's it's okay just come back 7 no no it's not okay give me back my money okay he opens the safe he gives me back the 20,000 he says come back 7 o' I
[32:51] say okay so now I leave and now I'm going back and it's 7:00 but now it's dark and the alley all the stores are closed so it's this dark alley this guy knows I'm coming with $20,000 and the average
[33:08] income in Korea at that time was $200 a month and I'm thinking this is crazy I should not be doing this and again like I had not traveled a lot I and i' had
[33:20] I had not traveled a lot I and i' had never been to Asia and and I just every step I took I'm like I should not do that I should not go there I should not do this but in the back of my mind I'm thinking I can't go tell my teammates oh
[33:33] I was afraid to go to the money changer because it was dark right so I I went because it was dark right so I I went and I got there safely I thought now I'm I going to get out you know and sure enough he opened the safe he had my
[33:49] enough he opened the safe he had my money counted it all out gave it to me and everything was fine and I ended up doing business with that guy dozens of times over the next three years and and I now know for sure
[34:04] I could have just left him my 20,000 and and picked up the money at 7 o00 and it would have been fine but at the time I was just really frightened and uh and it
[34:16] was a big lesson you know I mean money changer was a very respected job in Korea and there was one in every neighborhood and my 20,000 was actually a small part of the amount of money he changed every day so yeah was a learning
[34:35] never known going into yeah I could never have known I mean Marty told me that that the guy was okay but you know still is there any casino that stands
[34:47] out as particularly memorable uh Walker Hill in Soul where we you know took over a million dollars out of that casino um there was a casino out of that casino um there was a casino in St Petersburg Russia that was the
[35:03] most beautiful Casino I've ever seen I mean it was like being in a palace like you were in Versailles or something just just amazing with you know uh paintings on the ceiling and um just gorgeous um you know the Cal the Cal Nea
[35:21] gorgeous um you know the Cal the Cal Nea uh always sticks out to me just because you know I I swore that that was the worst Casino in the world um you know that they had hadn't changed the carpet in 50 years um but it was always a great
[35:35] Casino for us we took an awful lot of money out of the Cala you you'd mentioned before you started recording that you had a memorable experience in Poland do you mind sharing a guy who a Pit Boss who worked at Caesar's in Lake
[35:49] Pit Boss who worked at Caesar's in Lake Tahoe invented a side bet one of the first side bets um and it was called over under and you could bet on whether over under and you could bet on whether the your total would be over or under 13
[36:02] the your total would be over or under 13 and if you got 13 both sides lost right this is a really countable side bit uh it's worth much more than just counting it's worth much more than just counting cards uh and it was up at Caesars in
[36:16] Lake Tahoe and every counter in the world was Tahoe and every counter in the world was up there playing it and I knew that was not going to last so I called the guy up I called Caesars
[36:31] asked for him in the pit and I told him that I was a journalist and I was writing a story about these new casino games and and these side bets and uh
[36:44] tells me a little about it and I said and and now I know you have that there at Caesar's is it anywhere else and he named some other little Casino uh that I knew about that had a very small limit and he said but you
[37:00] know um Huxley is representing the game in um for other countries in the UK and I said oh okay well thank you very much now I called Huxley and I said
[37:12] you know I understand I'm writing an article about this new side bet and you know can you tell me where else they have it and they said well we just have it and they said well we just placed it in Warsaw now the Berlin Wall
[37:26] had just come down down and uh they open these casinos in Warsaw so I called these casinos in Warsaw so I called Daryl and I say we're going to Poland right and uh so Daryl says we should take Rocky right because they're going
[37:41] to let a Japanese guy win more than they'll let us win okay so we call Rocky we all take off we head to Poland so uh we're playing in shifts you Poland so uh we're playing in shifts you know uh and after two days um
[37:58] they came right at the time where there would be an overlap where darl would be table and then eventually one of us would be ending our shift and the other taking over all three of us were at the table and um they came over to Rocky and
[38:13] told him you know sorry you you can't play Blackjack anymore and um he had won play Blackjack anymore and um he had won 70,000 and so Rocky gets up and leaves and the dealer says um well yeah I mean the guy want a lot of money but what's
[38:29] he going to do with it and we said what do you mean and he goes well it's polish lotes I mean you can't take them out of the country and you can't change them to any other currency and we're like
[38:46] really wow so so you know now we go back to the room when we have this big powow like what are we going to do right and um you you know uh so we're trying to come up with these ideas well we could buy like
[39:02] a couple of Mercedes and drive them over the Border or you know we buy lots of first class uh refundable airline tickets and you know now and one trick that had worked in Korea was um I don't know if this is still possible but you
[39:18] could go into an American Express office and pay down your credit card so you could just go in there and you know hey I want to put $20,000 in payment toward
[39:30] my credit card and and you could do that anyway so we're trying to come up with anyway so we're trying to come up with all these ideas and and so but we decide we should at least investigate this not being able to change the money kind of
[39:42] thing and so darl and I go out and we find money changing places and um you know we go in and sure enough they they will change them into American
[39:55] of the country but at least we can get them changed um so we you know they don't have a lot of money so we have to go from place to place and we end up in this um uh kind of square in the old section
[40:12] um uh kind of square in the old section of town and um we kind of start asking around if there's money changer and we they're these two guys and they're like
[40:24] they're these two guys and they're like the black market money changers and so the black market money changers and so but they seem sketchy to us right so we say um they're like how much do you want to change and we say
[40:37] to change and we say $11,000 and they go yeah okay right come down here and they're like leading us down the street and we're like oh let's down the street and we're like oh let's do it here anyway they try they do this
[40:49] like fake count they were not good at it like counting it was like 900 but kind of thing and we're like no no no no no no and we just start walking away and now they're following us and um they won't leave us alone they keep following
[41:03] won't leave us alone they keep following us and to get into this area you have there's no cars you have to go down these narrow streets right and uh so now we're like how are we going to get out of here and literally they have these
[41:15] carriage rides these guys with horer carriages and we were we're like that guy right and we jump in the carriage and like get us out of here and uh so he he got us out and uh eventually we we changed all the money and we didn't know
[41:32] how to get it out so we went and we got a safe deposit box and we thought all right we'll figure it out back at home and we'll come back and get the money have any other ideas about how to get
[41:45] the money out so uh we decided all right well we're just going to have to smuggle it out I said well I've got one I've got one idea like usually when they're in these currency restrictions you can take
[41:58] these currency restrictions you can take out as much as you brought in right so I out as much as you brought in right so I write a check to myself for $70,000 and then when we're going in I declare on the form that I'm bringing in
[42:13] $70,000 and the guy says uh you're you're bringing in 70,000 yeah and he goes let me see it so I show him the check and he's like oh it's a check right and he writes on the form right so that's not going to
[42:26] work so now we just have to have to smuggle so now we just have to have to smuggle the money out and and I'm like well darl I might have heat on me because of that form so you have you have to do
[42:39] it right so we get the money and we decide that uh that's it's probably better to fly out of krackow instead of uh Warsaw right so we go down to krackow
[42:51] we book our flight and um and and we head to the airport and you have to drive basically right by asit to go to the airport outside of Koco uh which was kind of a bad Omen you know and um uh we get there
[43:10] and we got through we got through fine we're like I mean we were [ __ ] we're like I mean we were [ __ ] bricks but we got through fine and um like straps around his ankle these ankle
[43:23] wallets and um whenever we whenever he flies the first thing he does when the plane takes off is he you know puts on a you know eye mask and his ear pods and
[43:35] you know tries to go to sleep so we get on the plane the plane starts to take off he tries to go to sleep and all of a sudden there's a steward is there tapping him going sir sir and he's like yeah yeah and she points down and we
[43:50] look and there are $100 bills cascading out of his pant legs all over the floor like a big pool of money on the floor and we dive down and they're like you have to put your seat belt they we're like getting all the money we get all
[44:05] the money we we recovered all of it we didn't lose lose any bills so uh yeah that was uh that was we do stupid things when we're young you know did did he have holes in in his pocket or what happened I think the bands broke that
[44:20] were holding it around his ankles um yeah worst case scenario is they confiscate it he didn't have a way to get it out anyway well true yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah I guess you could go to prison oh yeah what are some of the
[44:37] lessons you've learned over the years from Advantage play your network is more important than anything two things two things are more important than anything number one your good name
[44:52] good name like it is so important that I mean it it just seems like crazy to even have to say it say it but you know to not blly cheat and steal
[45:05] you know I mean every person that has stolen from me would have made so much more money if they had just been honest it's it's unbelievable how shortsighted people are that steal so number one that your
[45:21] that steal so number one that your reputation and and number two is your your circle your the people um in your network is just invaluable and and you know I have numerous stories just on alen Woods alone right I mean
[45:36] because he called me up and he told me about Korea um I mean he got me started actually I have another Alan Woods story if you want to you want to hear it so
[45:48] Alan Woods I forget what year it was maybe it was like 92 94 something like maybe it was like 92 94 something like that um when the World Cup was happening and Allan calls me up and he says uh hey look uh you know I I got a bunch of he's
[46:05] look uh you know I I got a bunch of he's in Hong Kong uh betting horse racing and uh he said you know I got a bunch of these guys and uh the their bookies are asked if they could lay off to me so I'm taking it he goes do you want a
[46:20] piece I was like sure I mean if Allen's doing it right there's there's an edge there so um I said yeah sure he goes I was thinking I I'd give you half of 1% I'm like oh okay thanks Alan you know
[46:36] maybe I'll buy lunch uh when we're done and um so anyway you know I don't watch soccer I don't pay attention to any of it and he goes um he calls me up before
[46:48] the finals he goes hey you know uh you remember that that soccer I was thinking maybe you want to take your percentage down to a tenth and I'm like Allan how much can I swing with half of 1% he was like
[47:06] swing with half of 1% he was like 125,000 wow yeah um yeah so he had like I don't know 25 million dollar or something um just on that match so anyway you know I ended up at when all was said and done I ended up winning
[47:23] like over $40,000 just because he called me and offered it to me you know um so yeah your network tremendously so yeah your network tremendously important that's amazing um what do you
[47:37] think are some of the biggest sacrifices to pursuing a career in Advantage play it's hard on your family you know I mean it it it's really hard on your family I mean I when my kids were little there were times I was gone for a month
[47:52] at a time um so yeah yeah that's it I mean there can be sacrifices to your health too um especially you know the worst part about playing for me is the smoke in the casinos
[48:07] um yeah but I think those are the two major things yeah I was I was going to ask you about that with family CU you know that's what got me to just stop know that's what got me to just stop being on the on the road and and I I
[48:20] being on the on the road and and I I miss I miss it but uh it it's quite a sacrifice to you know and and there plenty of trip I mean I did road trips with my wife and we had four kids you know in in the minivan and dropped me
[48:33] off of the casino and you know but that that's hard to do for a long time yeah well I did trips here you know I would uh like when my kids were little MGM actually had a theme park in the back and so you know we would stay there and
[48:48] my wife could take the kids to the theme park and things like that but um but yeah it's it's hard being away uh we've heard you say quite a few few times that that you're retiring what is it that what's the poll
[49:03] because that goes back to maybe you could even tell us about the the first you unretired my original plan was all my degree was in theater my original plan
[49:17] was always finish college go to Las Vegas make a bunch of money and then go Vegas make a bunch of money and then go to La and become a movie star and I realized Iz that you know if that if that didn't work I had a backup plan
[49:30] which was I would be a television star instead um and and so my first instead um and and so my first retirement was uh retirement was uh 1983 uh I retired and moved to LA and uh
[49:44] got into was trying to make it as an actor and then um I came out of retirement what happened was I found I found two
[49:58] was I found I found two games um I don't remember how I found one of them was they had early surrender in curaco and uh I don't remember how I found out about that but I do remember
[50:11] that I found out from a magazine called gambling times that they were going to open a brand new casino in brand new casino in Aruba and they were going to deal single
[50:24] deck which was unheard of outside the United States so uh rather than calling my old teammates I called darl and I told him
[50:37] we should go play these games I said look but I don't want to get tied up in look but I don't want to get tied up in some long bank roll so you know I just want to like make the do this and and that'll be it and he was like yeah we'll
[50:50] just go for the trip we'll go for a couple of weeks or whatever and and when it's over we'll just split up the money and and that'll be good unless we lose and uh I was like okay sounds good so I call him back I go we're leaving in
[51:06] three weeks and he goes why are we why why why aren't we leaving tomorrow and I said well you know the tickets like if we leave tomorrow the tickets are like a th000 bucks and if we wait three weeks it's like 600 he's like
[51:22] we're going to play games that might be worth $1,000 an hour and you're trying to save money on the airline ticket and you know it was such a real I was like duh yeah but but my old team like you
[51:36] were supposed to drive three extra blocks to see the what the price of gas was and they weren't even paying the expenses anyway you know what I mean like you didn't spend money on anything if you didn't have to so that was my
[51:49] first big kind of culture shock playing with Daryl instead of like the people I'd been playing with before so I rebooked the tickets we go to cirasa and of course we lose you know and we're there and so we keep extending
[52:04] in cirasa and not going to Aruba because we keep being stuck and finally we only have a few days left and we're like we have to go to Aruba and at least like check on this game so we go to Aruba we go to there's like nine different
[52:19] casinos we go to every single casino and we cannot find this single deck game right so we end up up coming home and being stuck but I later found out there being stuck but I later found out there was a tenth casino that we never found
[52:34] that we didn't know about and the guy who found it they had single Deck with surrender and the guy won $300,000 before they backed him $300,000 before they backed him off um but anyway now we were stuck so I
[52:48] was out of retirement until we got unstuck and so that was my first uh my first retirement and over the years what has
[53:00] pulled you back out of retirement is there just kind of a need to keep being things well no I usually want to when I step away it's usually because I have something else I want to be doing and uh for the longest time that was film and
[53:15] television one period where I you know was working for years in La not making much money and then I needed money again so I had to go back to doing what I knew so I had to go back to doing what I knew to do um and uh you know my latest one
[53:30] was about a year and a half ago Daryl convinced me to come out of retirement convinced me to come out of retirement bet Sports so now I'm betting sports do you think you're going to retire again soon quite
[53:42] possibly yeah quite possibly what what else are you interested in doing well I I still you know I've done some theater here in town I do some some theater here in town I do some plays now and again so um yeah so I I'm
[53:56] plays now and again so um yeah so I I'm interested in in going and find seeing if there's uh any shows that I might be right for doing some acting and they're oh they're talking about building a big Studio here too so uh Warner Brothers is
[54:10] talking about uh I think Mark Wahlberg has something to do with it so on the west side of town they're talking about you know a big movie studio which suddenly there'd be a lot of work for actors and stuff so I might you know I
[54:23] actors and stuff so I might you know I might do some of that if if it comes comes to it thanks so much for sharing your stories with us and U and your face gambling with an edge are there any episodes that really stick out to you
[54:38] that someone might want to start with definitely the Billy Baxter episodes I think there are a couple of those if you like stories about the old times and things like that one of the episodes that I think is really great that if
[54:53] case is the episode with Kelly Sun who was the girl with Phil Ivy when they did the whole Edge sorting uh bakra thing um I I
[55:06] think that's uh an episode a lot of people would enjoy um and and for people you know I'm attracted obviously to good storytellers so another one that
[55:20] um is not as gambling related if you wanted an episode that that um you know it would be enjoyable I think to almost anybody is an episode with a to almost anybody is an episode with a guy named Norman Beck and uh he worked
[55:35] guy named Norman Beck and uh he worked for this company that they provide Insurance to for example if you're having a golf tournament and you want to give away $100,000 if someone gets a hole in one well you buy insurance from
[55:50] them and then if the hole in one happens they pay the they pay the $100,000 and I mean he has had bets they had a billion dollars on if somebody found the right Pepsi cap they had cow
[56:05] found the right Pepsi cap they had cow patty Bingo where people would bet on which they would let these cattle into the rodeo ring with a big bingo card and they would bet on which number you know the cow was going to crap on anyway Norm
[56:20] is a great Storyteller and and that's a very entertaining episode that I think uh a lot of people would enjoy thanks so much for sharing your time and your stories with us and hopefully we'll hear some gambling with an edge podcast
[56:33] again at some point I I hope so too or or life is a gamble life is a gamble that's my other one and thanks for having me I was happy to do it thank you