[00:02] in my head and it's going to be so much easier to eat snacks the next time and I don't want to eat snacks. Something important happens. It opens up this window, a a habit window where your habits become more malleable. They can
[00:16] advantage of that window, and that window eventually closes, right? It's not open forever. Then you still keep the weight off. You still keep the healthy habits that you developed. >> Charles, welcome to the show. Thanks for
[00:29] >> Yeah, I'm excited to have you on the podcast because I read your um book which is I think one of the most known habit books about like 10 years ago. So yeah, I'm excited and honored to have you on my podcast now. So uh you also
[00:44] actually reached out about a very interesting new kind of area of research interesting new kind of area of research which is uh GLP1s and habit formation. which is uh GLP1s and habit formation. So you describe this idea of how GP1s,
[00:57] you know, not only affect weight loss, but they also have quite interesting effects on like the brain chemistry and habit formation. So yeah, that's right. Excited to delve into this uh topic. So yeah, maybe we can start off with um
[01:10] that you've uh you know researched about >> Sure. So I I started I started using a GLP1 about two years ago and and I being on it. I started losing some weight. I thought that was really,
[01:26] really helpful. Um, and then I started noticing that the habits in my life were noticing that the habits in my life were changing because I was using the GLP1. Eating habits, yes, but also like exercise became easier. Um, I stopped
[01:41] drinking alcohol. I just had no taste for it anymore. And so I became really interested in trying to understand what's going on here. like why why is big impact on my life and we know that it's not just me right there's people
[01:54] who have who are suffering from alcoholism or gambling addiction and they find that when they start on the GLP1 all of a sudden those cravings diminish and so I started looking around for people who are doing research and I
[02:06] found this company N that I'm now working with um N for anyone who's not aware is this app on that you can download on your phone more importantly the app is this thing that's designed to help you recognize and change your
[02:18] habits, particularly habits around food consumption. And what what their research suggested is that when you start using a GLP1, something important happens that we can go into the details of, but what it does is it opens up this
[02:35] window, a a habit window where your habits become more malleable. They can change more easily. And if you take advantage of that closes, right? It's not open forever. But if you take advantage of that window
[02:50] and you change your basic consumption habits, then when you discontinue the medication, you still keep the weight off. You still keep the healthy habits that you developed. And I thought that was really really fascinating. So I I
[03:04] told new I I wanted to work with them to understand more about this um and help their research. and and it's been a great relationship and and we've learned a lot about how habits function within our brains by using GLP-1 as a variable
[03:17] that that um changes things. >> Yeah. I mean, people know that GP1's are very effective at weight loss. And I guess the basic understanding of how it works is that it suppresses appetite. It's like a diabetes medication
[03:32] historically, but yeah, it like reduces your appetite. But what yeah people say what you also alluded to is that it just reduces this food noise or um yeah just less less kind of interested in
[03:45] different kinds of activities that uh >> and it's important to to note it it's not that it necessarily represses your appetite that actually ends up happening because your stomach shrinks and so as a result um you're
[03:58] just less hungry. But what it actually does is it quiets it quiets what you mentioned that food noise in people's heads. it it seems to somehow heads. it it seems to somehow moderate or remove the cravings that we
[04:11] that we that all of us feel throughout the day versus on a lot of various things. Um you know and sometimes like for me example I did not even understand that this food noise was inside my head until I started the GLP1 like I wasn't
[04:25] aware of the food noise. I would just sit down at dinner and there'd be a, you know, at a restaurant a basket of fries on the table and I wouldn't be hungry and I didn't want any fries, but I would just reach over and start eating them,
[04:38] right, without even thinking about it. And and that's the food noise. The food noise is this thing that's kind of that's kind of creating this slight craving anytime you see food that you know is tasty, that you want to eat it.
[04:53] And what's interesting is that by quieting that food noise, oftentimes we don't understand that the food noise is even there until it goes quiet. And then suddenly, in my case, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this is such a change. I didn't
[05:05] understand that this this is what was happening before." But when you quiet the food noise, you quiet the cravings, that actually changes a lot of mental that actually changes a lot of mental habits around food and other behaviors.
[05:19] Yeah, I think that it actually very well also describes what you wrote in your >> Uh about that. Yeah. It's not necessarily the fries or whatever the else that people crave. It's, you know, something else. And uh the GFP ones
[05:34] almost like help you to detach from that signal quue. let's talk about exactly what's happening. So um you know the power of really the habit loop which is that every habit has three components.
[05:50] There's a cue which is like a trigger for an automatic behavior to start and itself. What we think of as the habit and then finally there's a reward. Every habit in your life delivers a reward to you. And about 40 to 45% of what people
[06:05] do every day is a habit. It's not a choice. It's a habit. So these habits are all around us all the time. And so their Q routine reward, that's the habit loop. So let's talk about what GOP ones do. One of the things that they
[06:20] do is that by by diminishing the food noise in your head, they're disrupting noise in your head, they're disrupting the cues that normally exist, right? So suddenly these cues and these rewards are suddenly getting shaken up a little
[06:34] food noise was a cue for me to reach over and eat a French fry or perhaps um you know just uh I I I start imagining the reward of it. I start imagining that the crunchiness and the salt of it and
[06:47] that's what drives me to pick up the fry. All of a sudden that food noise is quieted and so as a result the cue has been disrupted which is how we change habits. Then the second thing that happens is that oftent times and this is
[07:01] what you had alluded to before the reward also changes because one of the things about rewards is that rewards are more rewarding when we recognize them as rewards, right? So like so like if you eat a the reason you like you love to
[07:16] eat a bowl of ice cream is a it tastes good. That's a reward in and of itself. But b your brain anticipates how it's going to taste. It starts expecting that taste. It creates that sense of craving. One of the things that GOP ones do is
[07:29] One of the things that GOP ones do is that they suddenly make food seem less pressing. Like it's just easier to ignore things. And so as a result, you stop anticipating the reward from that French fry. And because you're not
[07:41] anticipating the the reward because your brain has essentially said like, "Yeah, It doesn't doesn't really get me that excited anymore." Now suddenly the reward is diminished as well. So, we're in this situation where your cues have
[07:55] been disrupted. The rewards associated with eating French fries have have been start changing the routine, the behavior, right? We can sort of say about it, the thing I like about the fries is the crunchiness. So, I'm just
[08:10] I'm going to eat carrots instead. And I do that once, twice, three times. Suddenly, I have this new habit loop inside my head that the old cue that I sit down at the dinner table is now linked to a new routine. I I eat carrots
[08:25] instead of French fries and the reward is I get that same crunchiness, which you know is pretty good. That's how that's how GLP1s help create this habit window where our behaviors become more malleable.
[08:38] >> Yeah, that's that's super interesting. One kind of interesting thought I had is um or a question that uh you know people who are leaner you know you would presume that they are a little bit better at this um you know control of or
[08:52] they might get less first of all they might get less food noise for various reasons or they're just much better at controlling it with the GLP ones. Is it that the idea of just detaching yourself from the the habit or the queue of
[09:06] unhealthy or junk food eating versus is it that people who um are leaner are just experiencing this similar kind of mechanisms just by default or because they're leaner or they're already managed to distance themselves from that
[09:21] don't totally know the answer to that, but it is important to make this distinction. When people are leaner or less lean, it is not because of a willpower problem, right? So, it's not about whether they can control it or
[09:34] they choose to control it. That that's not that's not why people gain weight or lose weight. In fact, we know lot there's lots of people who have very very strong willpower and have struggled with their weight. And it's not just a
[09:47] matter of them just, you know, taking on more discipline. Rather, what often seems to happen is that some people for genetic reasons do experience less food
[09:59] genetic reasons do experience less food noise naturally. And some people they're able to achieve satiations that satiate much faster um with less food. And so as a result, the urge to eat is diminished. You know,
[10:15] that's that's genetics. But but the truth of the matter is that all of us can achieve that through through changing our biology and changing our it's not that they have more willpower. It's not that they have more discipline.
[10:29] advantage, but we can replicate and mimic that advantage. Because the truth who don't feel food noise, who are skinny when they're kids, and then they grow up and suddenly they become overweight, right? It's not it's not
[10:43] that your your the die is cast in your head when you're born. Rather, what we know is that environment matters much much more than genetic predisposition. much more than genetic predisposition. And in in particular, um forming new
[10:56] habits through choice has much much more to do with your weight than genetics. And so as a result, what we see is that when people are in that situation where they do want to lose weight, they struggle with their weight that we can
[11:11] struggle with their weight that we can change the biology through the GLP1. And and that that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a permanent change, right? But during that habit window that opens up when you're on a GLP1, you can
[11:24] build new habits. So So it's about it's about biology plus psychology. GLP1 takes care of the biology. We can take care of the psychology by understanding how habits work and by creating new deliberate habits that are
[11:39] healthier and then relying on those even once the medication discontinues those habits remain and it's the psychology that wins out. I want to take a quick break to let you know about my favorite wellness devices which are the bone
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[12:34] buncharge.com and use the code seam sim for a 15% discount. Yeah, I was just sharing my own experience to a little bit that um when I'm a little bit more strict with my diet or I, you know, let's say I'm already kind of lower body
[12:50] fat, I eat a bit less food, then also the desire to eat more food usually to if you know I might have a little bit of more snacks or like a little bit more junk food, then it kind of feeds into this loop that you keep wanting it more
[13:04] stricter then the desire to eat the junk food is also much lower. It's kind of like when you when people say that you know um I can't eat one donut. I'm going this on >> No. And I think what's probably
[13:17] happening there is that and this isn't to say that discipline isn't important at all. I obviously I mean one of the things that we know from the National Weight Loss Registry which is the largest database of people who have lost
[13:29] I think you have to have lost 30 lbs to be on it and have kept it off for 2 years and many people lost way more than 30 lbs is that the most the most influential habit is food journaling. Right? If I write down what I'm eating
[13:42] Right? If I write down what I'm eating at each meal I tend to eat less. So what's going on there? like like or when it comes to you, what's actually happening when you when you consciously decide to eat less or to eat healthier
[13:54] or to not have snacks. Well, part of it might be your bi biology, right? It might be easier or harder for you to make that decision. But a much more important part of it and and frankly a larger impact is that you're either
[14:07] reinforcing or diminishing certain habit loops within your brain. So, when I'm of writing down everything I'm eating, one of the things it does is it forces me to pay attention to what I'm eating, right? I can't just reach over and grab
[14:21] a couple French fries because I haven't written it down. And if I write it down, have to admit to myself that I broke my diet. So, I'm creating a a psychological diet. So, I'm creating a a psychological tool to help me pay closer attention to
[14:35] what I'm consuming and pay closer attention to what my stated preferences I'm only going to eat healthy. I'm reminding myself of that stated preference. Similarly with you, when when you decide
[14:47] to eat fewer snacks, there's probably part of you that recognizes if I eat snacks today, I'm reinforcing this habit loop associated with snacks in my head eat snacks the next time and I don't want to eat snacks, right? My stated
[15:01] preference is that I want to avoid snacks. So, you probably have some system in place to help remind you. And it might just be completely mental and and like you might not even be aware of it, but there is some system in place
[15:13] that's reminding you of what your larger goals are. And as a result, it's helping you make the right decision to influence the habit loops. It's reinforcing the habit around healthy eating and deprioritizing the habit around eating
[15:27] snacks. >> Yeah, that's that's quite interesting. And yet the way you frame it can be yeah quite powerful that if you think you're going to like overindulge then you're probably going to be more likely to do
[15:39] >> Yeah. And and this actually gets to something that's kind of interesting in psychology which is there's this tension inside everyone's head between what are known as revealed preferences and stated preferences. So stated preferences are I
[15:53] want to lose 20 pounds. But the revealed preference is that even though I say that I have ice cream after every meal, right? And there's a tension between what I say I want and what my behavior suggests I want. And what the reason why
[16:07] kind of two brains in our head, right? There's the prefrontal cortex, the the conscious thought part of our brain. And that part of our brain, it pays a lot of When you say, "I want to lose 20 pounds," the pre prefrontal cortex says,
[16:24] We're going to make this happen. This is real. This is true." Like, we like we love this idea. But then there's the deeper interior structures of our brain, which frankly are much much more of our brain, right? It's it's it's like 80% of
[16:38] our brain is the deeper interior structures. And they are incredibly powerful at influencing habits in part because the place where habits live within our inside our head is in the basil ganglia which is at sort of at the
[16:51] center of people's skull and it's one of the oldest structures inside inside the brain. the the pref the basil ganglia it does not care what your stated preference is like it it doesn't even
[17:03] listen to your stated preference is rather what it does is it observes how you behave your revealed preferences and from those revealed preferences it
[17:15] develops a selfidentity so you say I want to lose 20 pounds but the basil ganglia is like h yeah you say that but then you have ice cream after every dinner so like I don't actually think you want to lose 20 lbs cuz the revealed
[17:28] preference is that you prefer ice cream to losing weight. >> So, I'm going to create a selfidentity that makes it easier for you to to eat ice cream. It's going to make eating ice cream into a habit because the the basil
[17:41] doesn't except for the prefrontal cortex. It doesn't say like these are good habits or these are bad habits. It just says these are habits, right? If you're behaving in a way that suggests you want that reward, I'm going to make
[17:54] it easier and easier and easier for you to get that reward. So the reason why this is important is because >> when we start to change our behavior when when I sit down at the table and I
[18:08] don't eat from the bowl of French fries, perhaps because I'm on a GLP1, the interior structures of my brain, my basil ganglia says, "Oh, you know what? kind of guy who can ignore French fries." And if he's the kind of guy who
[18:25] of all, I'm not going to I'm not going to make eating French fries easier because he clearly doesn't want it. But second of all, the kind of guy who eats He's the kind of guy who can go for a run in the morning. Like he's the kind
[18:38] of guy who can who can eat a salad at lunch. So So my self-identity is going to update to the identity that makes it easier for me to make healthy choices and for those habits to be prioritized, >> right?
[18:52] >> right? But yeah, the the key is having this gap or like this window, right, to become this self-aware in that moment to uh make those uh kind of narrative choices. >> Yes, that's exactly right. That's
[19:06] advantage of the habit window, right? that that can be long in duration, but also to take advantage to apply that So, you have a system in place that's
[19:18] fries that's causing you to say like, h I don't want any French fries. >> Yeah. Gotcha. So, uh where can people then start? So um let's say whether they then start? So um let's say whether they do it with a GLP or or or not um
[19:33] how do let's say how do people start with trying to change their uh habits like let's say in the context of dieting and the weight loss. >> So this is why I started working with N is I thought they did such a good job of
[19:46] making this starting and tracking easier. So one there's a couple of place if you want to create behavior change. The first is that you need to have a system for being able to analyze the cues and the rewards that are
[20:02] talk a little bit about how we build that system. Secondly, we need a system of monitoring. The thing about a habit is that when we're in the grip of a thinking. Like that's kind of why habits are so useful is you don't have to
[20:17] them. Otherwise, we'd never have been able to evolve. All mammals I should the reason why it's so critical is because if you can't form habits, you
[20:29] down a path, you have to decide whether to eat the apple or eat the rock, right? It's just mentally exhausting. You don't have any time for anything else. And so when you're in the grip of a habit, your brain basically kind of turns off. So
[20:42] it's very, very easy to not notice habits. And so you need a system that habits. And so you need a system that forces you to to notice them and to track them and then you need a system to figure out where they fail. Right? So
[20:57] talk about the first one identifying the cues and the rewards. Um there's a method for doing this which is uh let's say you know I kind of I had this cookie used to go get a cookie from the cafeteria and I didn't want to do it. I
[21:13] I did it every day cuz I would just have this craving and almost automatically I'd stand up and go get a cookie. And so I needed to figure out what the Q was. Now, we know that all cues fall into one of five categories. It's usually a time
[21:26] of five categories. It's usually a time of day, a particular place, the presence of certain people, a specific emotion, or a preceding behavior that's become ritualized. And so what I did is literally like I I
[21:42] had a piece of paper and every day when I when I felt the cookie urge, I would write down those five things like what time is it? It's 3:15. You know, where around me? Jim and Bill are standing around me. And and after about 2 or 3
[21:56] days, it was pretty easy for me to identify the cue for this cookie habit. It was the time of day, right? That's the only thing that remained constant day after day was it was usually that the cookie h the cookie urge would hit
[22:08] the cookie h the cookie urge would hit between like 3:15 and 3:45. Okay, so I know the cue now I have to figure out what the reward is. And at first I right? Cookies taste delicious. But when I talked to researchers, they said, "No,
[22:21] no, no. You don't understand. Like a cookie is a bundle of like 20 different rewards. Like is it the carbohydrates? Is it the sugar? Is it the taste sensation? Is it something that's going on around you that standing up from the
[22:35] desk is actually like the reward because you get to take a break? And so what I experiments. The next time I had a cookie urge, I'd eating a cookie, I would take some Splenda and spread it on my tongue,
[22:50] which is actually a really good way to um satisfy a a a craving for sweets. It works. It doesn't taste great, but it works pretty well. Then the next day and then I would ask myself, do I still have the cookie urge? Then the next day I
[23:03] would go up and I'd take eat an apple. Maybe it was just that I'm hungry and an apple is satisfying as a cookie. And I'd pay attention. Does that work? The next day I would conduct a third experiment. I instead of going up to the cafeteria,
[23:15] I would walk around the block cuz maybe the reward that I'm seeking, maybe it's that I just need like a break from work, like I need to stretch my legs. So I would do that for about four or five days and pretty pretty quickly it became
[23:28] clear to me it was not the cookie that was the reward for this. Like the thing was the reward for this. Like the thing that I was craving was talking to other get the cookie I would often times as I'm eating it walk through the cafeteria
[23:42] sit down and I would chat with them for you know 10 or 15 minutes and we gossip about you know everyone else in in the office. And so it was, it turns out that when I would stand up and instead of going up to the cafeteria, I just find
[23:56] I was at working at the New York Times at that point. I'd find someone else in at that point. I'd find someone else in my newsroom to go talk to that the cookie craving would be completely gone when I went back to my desk. So now I
[24:08] knew the queue. The queue is a time of day between 3:15 and 3:45. The reward is basically socializing with other people. Once I know that now I can reprogram the
[24:20] habit right now I can create a brand new behavior a new routine. So, what I started doing is I started setting my alarm for, you know, 3:30. And when the alarm got off went off, I would stand up and I'd look around and I'd see someone
[24:35] and I'd talk to them for 10 or 15 minutes. And then I'd go back to my desk and continue working without having eaten anything and the cookie urge would not be there anymore. And and after about a week of that, I didn't really
[24:50] even crave the cookie anymore. Like, I didn't think about the cookie. So that's how we that's we need a structured system to help us identify our cues and our rewards. That's the first step for figuring out how to change a habit. And
[25:03] one, as I mentioned, one of the things I like about the N app is it helps you identify those cues and rewards. It helps you do those experiments to figure helps you do those experiments to figure out what is driving a habitual behavior.
[25:15] out what is driving a habitual behavior. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's um you know you be is also like a muscle the mindfulness muscle or just becoming aware of it that uh when you do it once it becomes easier to do it again and uh you know
[25:27] neuroplasticity works through that way that over time it becomes easier. So uh one like very powerful idea that I've utilized in the past um has been yeah there just the idea that okay whatever
[25:40] you're doing it's reinforcing that new habit again. So um >> you know, if and especially in the moments of the awareness, if you know that you're in a habit window, you know that you're uh at like a crossroad, are
[25:53] you going to eat a cookie or not? Then that's especially powerful because you're, you know, mindfully or you're enforcing those neural pathways uh while being aware. Whereas in most cases, people do it automatically. You know,
[26:07] pattern, but at least you're not you're not being uh that aware in that moment. bad habit, then you're especially kind of worsening that pathway. But yeah, if
[26:19] if you're also doing the right thing in that in that habit window, then uh you're able to change it and steer it to another direction. mechanical explanation for what's happening here, which is the way that
[26:32] our brain works is neural pathways get either thicker or or thinner, and as they get thicker, it's easier for electrical pulses to travel down them, right? Basically the electricity kind of powers our brain and as well as
[26:46] neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine which influence um the gating functions for neurons and this electrical impulse. So when when you build a habit loop what what's happening is that your brain is creating a neural
[26:59] pathway that connects the cue the routine and the reward. But there's two ways you can influence that. First of all, as you mentioned, when we when we do a habit deliberately, what we're doing is we're actually strengthening or
[27:14] thickening the neural pathway associated with a Q routine or reward that we want to encourage. So, you know, if you every time every time you eat a cookie habitually, then that neural pathway gets a little
[27:29] easier for electrical impulses to move down it and and that's why it feels like the habit gets stronger and stronger and stronger. But you can disrupt that. You can take advantage of that by, as you mentioned, basically deliberately
[27:44] yourself. So, when you create a new habit and you're saying, "Okay, I'm bed so I see them when I wake up in the morning. That's going to be the cue. I'm routine. I'm going to let myself have a really good smoothie when I come home.
[27:58] That's the reward." When you do that and create a habit deliberately and then you create a habit deliberately and then you you do it, it will get easier each day. is because you're thickening the the
[28:10] pathways associated with that Q routine and reward. So, so it's not so much that I can like just decide to reprogram the habits in my head. That's not that's not what how neuroplasticity works. The way that neuroplasticity works is my ability
[28:24] to influence which neurons are are connected to each other through choices and the thickness of those connections. And when I deliberately say every the shoes next to the bed. I'm going to go out and have a run. I'm going to have
[28:38] a smoothie afterwards. What I'm doing is I'm teaching the interior parts of my brain, okay, make this habit thicker and thicker and thicker and easier and easier and easier to do. >> Uh what's the role of a dopamine in
[28:51] this? So that's the neurotransmitter associated with addictions and rewards. But how does it work here? I mean it so so the the answer is that we don't we don't really know a lot about dopamine like dopamine serotonin there's a bunch
[29:04] of neurotransmitters that we can identify and we do have some sense of how they function but we don't completely understand them. So actually
[29:16] serotonin is a better example than dopamine. Do dopamine dopamine seems to be associated with a pleasure response. Um and that's why people associate it with with addiction. But probably even more influential is
[29:30] serotonin, right? So when when people are are um when people are suffering from depression, they'll use an SSRI, which is a seroton selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor to basically create higher levels of serotonin inside your
[29:43] brain. And one of the things that it does is when I talk about that electrical impulse, it's not it's not really an electrical impulse and it's not just an electrical impulse. Like electricity is part of it, but the
[29:55] neurotransmitters are part of what makes are part of what powers that neural connection. And so the more serotonin you have until a certain level, um, the more that you're able to to change your behavior. There's a gating. We can get
[30:12] experiments that have been done with MDMA for instance they show that not they increase the serotonin levels in people's heads they also slightly change the gating function so that serotonin gets released differently and that also
[30:28] has the capacity to thicken certain neural pathways and to create sensations and dopamine and other neurotransmitters. They're really really neurotransmitters. They're really really important and but they're also very
[30:42] know about them and ultimately it doesn't it's it's less helpful to know about the neurotransmitters than to know about the techniques we can use to influence them. People also report that uh some of the addictions tend to be um
[31:00] easier to manage like alcohol or some other like addictions. >> Yeah. And and we don't know exactly why. You mean on a GLP1 the GLP1's help help with with with addictions? Yeah. We don't exactly know why. Um the the
[31:14] has something to do with that craving interrupting the craving loop that that people people become addicted to say for instance alcohol not necessarily because of the influence that alcohol has on them but because
[31:30] they they cultivate a craving for alcohol and that craving is very hard to ignore. And the same way that GLP1s quiet food noise, there's a lot of evidence that they might be quieting other kinds of cravings or other kinds
[31:44] of noise in our head as well. And that if we can just disrupt that craving just a little bit, then the cue that used to prompt people to drink suddenly either isn't there or it's much quieter. And as a result, it allows them to make the
[32:00] choice that they want to make, which is to avoid drinking. So you're exactly right. GLP-1s appear to influence all kinds of things and and this gets to like how what we don't know about the human body. We know a good deal about
[32:13] we still don't know. So, a GLP-1 is a gluccogen-like peptide. And for a long just this thing that had to do with digestion and feelings of of fullness.
[32:27] But it's becoming clear that gluccogen plays a much bigger role in our bodies and our brains than we we previously realized because influencing glucagen seems to cut down on other kinds of addictions. And so so that's that that's
[32:42] there's new things for us to learn and hopefully use those learnings to help people live better lives. >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. the you know in a lot of ways um you know there's like the two kinds of people always that uh
[32:58] people shouldn't use medications that uh they should just you know be very disciplined and uh you know just put in the work and stop eating the junk food. But on the other hand, there's just people who are stuck in their habit
[33:11] loops and uh for various reasons for environmental reasons, genetic reasons or just being yeah lazy and you mean stuck in this kind of a bad habit loop. People put a moral argument over it >> and the science is really clear on which
[33:25] of those arguments is is right. It there is no moral component to to to this is no moral component to to to this stuff. I if somebody had cancer and we
[33:37] said oh you shouldn't do chemotherapy right you should just be more disciplined and you'll beat your cancer everyone would be like that's you're an idiot like that's not how cancer works that's not how biology works right if
[33:49] somebody if somebody was um if they had poor eyesight and they were like no no no I don't want to wear glasses I I that cure my eyesight problems I just want to everything I want to we would say you're a Like
[34:05] discipline is not going to give you your eyesight back. Like just use the tool in front of you. The exact same thing is true of weight loss and of using medications. This is not about discipline. People who are overweight,
[34:18] it is often not because of a disciplined problem. Many of them have very strong Similarly, there's people who suffer from gambling addictions or alcoholism. oftentimes they're incredibly disciplined. It's because there's
[34:35] something in their biology that's that's conspiring against them. The same way something in their biology or someone who has cancer has something in their biology. And so to say you shouldn't use a medication is
[34:49] not only is it counterproductive, it's it's frankly idiotic. What you should do is you should acknowledge that there are some things that I have control over. variety of reasons it's harder for me to control and so I should use the tools
[35:05] available to me to try and control them. But there's this demonization of like But there's this demonization of like using GLP1s as if like they're in a lower moral category than using glasses or chemotherapy is just total BS.
[35:20] Yeah, I agree. you know, it's um it's it's yeah, first of all, it's just going to be better for the society if there's less people who are obese and metabolically sick because you'll spend less on health care as a society and
[35:34] you'll save a lot of money. So, uh yeah, I mean, everyone's going to win at that kind of argument already. >> Yeah. No, absolutely. >> Yeah. And a lot of uh a lot of addictions also require a lot of
[35:47] discipline. So they have the discipline of getting out of their own way to fulfill their addiction whatever that >> absolutely anyone who who has met someone who's addicted to opiates knows they are one of the they are some of the
[36:00] most disciplined individuals on earth like when and again it's because of that craving for the opioid when they start to go through like like sort of par um withdrawal syndromes and the craving is really strong they're often times like
[36:16] getting themselves to walk miles and miles or getting themselves to do really boring tasks or if they're hiding that addiction, they have to be incredibly disciplined at work. Addicts addicts have a lot of discipline. That's the the
[36:30] problem there is not the discipline. The problem is the biology. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean even then um this is just uh how GLP1s have un unraveled like this area of research about the habit window and how even
[36:45] people who aren't using GLP1s they can use the same ideas to u you know help with their own habits or just because everyone doesn't need to go on a GLP1 and you know you can use these same ideas of the hic you know for quitting
[36:58] some other like smaller kind of ISIS or other things that you want to change. >> Absolutely. Absolutely. It's and and I I will say the thing about GLP-1s is you prescription and I think I believe other places as well. And it is really
[37:12] important to work with a medical provider in figuring out dosage and the other reason I like working with N is that they they can actually prescribe GLP1s either micro dose or macro dose. And in addition, they have medical
[37:28] Because that's an important part of this is all of this stuff is pretty complicated. So if somebody's like, "Oh, I'm I'm an alcoholic. I'm going to start taking a GLP-1 just to see what happens." That's probably going to be
[37:41] much less effective because first of all, you're not talking to a medical provider who can help you figure out dosing, who can observe the responses that you're feeling and having. Second is that if you just start taking a GLP1,
[37:54] maybe you will stop drinking during that that time you're taking the GLP1. um you your head quiets enough that you can make different choices. window, if you don't change your fundamental habits, if you don't develop
[38:10] new better habits to deal with things like stress or you know or um or cravings, then once you stop once you discontinue the medication, the the
[38:22] drinking is going to come right back. Just like when people who are taking JLB-1s for food reasons stop the medication, oftent times they regain start regaining the weight immediately. But if you build new habits in that
[38:35] window, what one of the things that N has found is that 80% of people who have built new habits in the habit window can maintain their weight loss for up to two
[38:47] than two years. It's just what they studied because the habits take over. new habits take hold, take root and and then you can discontinue the medication and still continue to live those healthy habits.
[39:02] Is there like any I guess uh like a workout plan for creating this u uh you or helping to use this habit window so you know if you train your muscles they get stronger. So uh there something you can do for your habits similarly.
[39:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's exactly what the new map does, right? Is that it it gives you a daybyday plan to strengthen those healthy habits. Um, I mean, it's those healthy habits. Um, I mean, it's it's not as easy as as with weights and
[39:31] but like if you want physical strength, we say, "Well, you should go lift weights." That's not actually true, right? Like the reason people worked with trainers is because just lifting a weight doesn't actually do the trick. I
[39:43] need to to lift certain weights for certain muscles in certain ways. I also need to like increase my protein. I need to allow myself for rest and recovery. So strengthening your muscles is actually a little bit complicated,
[39:56] get real strength, you need advice. Whether that advice is from a trainer or or from the internet. Similarly, when it comes to changing habits, particularly if they are habits around
[40:08] food, it really helps to have someone you can turn to advice you can turn to for advice. That doesn't mean it has to be N or it has to be an app, right? There's lots of resources online to help you educate yourself. But it is
[40:20] important to have sources of advice that tell you what to do to make this habit stronger and that habit stronger and then this bad habit weaker. and and and and having a system particularly in my opinion having an app
[40:35] to help you is really helpful just because the app can be personalized to you. What do you think of this phenomenon that people report feeling phenomenon that people report feeling more numb or you know less they enjoy
[40:49] things less when they started GLP ones? What's the like the brain chemistry there? So, so you're referring to the to the anhidonic um response that some people report around GLP1s and it it's important to note it it it does not seem
[41:05] widespread and it does not seem pervasive. So often times what people say when they're on a GLP1 and I I think this is true. I've experienced this myself is you tend to exp you tend to enjoy food just a little bit less. Like
[41:18] I used to really look forward to dinner, right? like I would kind of be like, "Oh my god, this is going to be delicious." Now that I'm on GLP1, I'm like, "Oh, dinner. That's great." Like I I'm yeah, I want to eat dinner, but I just it it's
[41:31] think I enjoy it like just a little bit less. And that probably has to do with my anticipation being muted because when I anticipate a reward, that reward I anticipate a reward, that reward becomes more um satisfying.
[41:45] So, so, so when it comes to food, there probably is some anhidonic response. probably is some anhidonic response. It's not universal. It's not 100%. It's like very small percent, but it exists. When it comes to enjoying feeling
[42:00] pleasure from other behaviors, there doesn't seem to be a lot of a lot widespread basis, right? Or that it even happens at all. what what might be happening is that um let's take sex, right? So like I don't I don't think
[42:16] there's a lot of records of people saying they enjoy sex less on a on a GLP-1, but let's imagine that they do and it's probably out there. It could have something to do with as you're losing weight and as your body is
[42:30] changing, the serotonin levels in your head are also changing. We know that taking an SSRI often times diminishes libido. It doesn't make sex less pleasurable. It makes the desire for sex less strong. And my guess is that
[42:45] something similar is happening here. That as your body and your brain chemistry are changing that you're experiencing more serotonin or you're experiencing something similar to more serotonin that makes the craving for sex
[42:58] serotonin that makes the craving for sex less feel less urgent. And so you'll enjoy having sex just as much. But because you're craving it less, you your subjective evaluation is that is that there's less pleasure associated with
[43:12] the behavior. Does that make sense? Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Your um so in in a lot of cases of let's say someone even like they're used to
[43:24] drinking alcohol, they stop drinking alcohol. I've some people have said that alcohol. I've some people have said that um yeah they just feel a lower kind of you know dopamine or less kind of this uh vigor or something else like that
[43:37] after quitting some sort of you know it can be alcohol it can be you know some other some other type of things junk food or some something like that. So they were using before has kind of elevated their dopamine and now they're
[43:51] at at their like true baseline. So it feels lower but that's what their actual true baseline is. So if they remove this kind of artificial, you know, kind of stimulus that has raised their dopamine, now they're just
[44:03] than they're used to. >> I think I think what's probably happening um and again, we don't really know very much about this. Like we're edges, and I'm not an expert on this, but I think what's actually happening is
[44:15] it's not that drinking the alcohol is producing less dopamine. it's that the for the alcohol when that craving is satisfied it creates its own dopamine.
[44:27] And so as a result because the because the the craving has been removed there's dopamine here to stand in for a bunch of neurotransmitters because it's not just dopamine but but there's less total dopamine in the in your system. Not
[44:44] because the alcohol the the impact of alcohol on dopamine has changed cuz you can't really change that, right? Like like I if you if you eat 1,000 calories, enjoyed it or not. There's just a biological impact of eating 1,000
[45:01] biological impact of eating 1,000 calories. But if I if I really anticipate eating 1,000 calories, if I'm really craving it, then when I satisfy that craving, there's an additional dopaminic or neurotransmitter response
[45:14] associated with that. And now that's been removed from the equation because the craving has been diminished. You've mentioned, you know, several times that there's limitations in this area of research still. What do you expect uh
[45:28] that we discover in the next few years about not only the habit formation but context? >> I mean I think the big question is understand more about this food noise
[45:42] we need to understand more about cravings. We we we had a model of cravings which is that your body began to um anticipate a reward sensation and
[45:54] it started anticipating the pleasure of that reward even before the reward was delivered. This is a research by a guy named Wolf Gang Schultz for the most part um that did these experiments with monkeys and juice. And so the idea was
[46:07] that because my brain would start anticipating the reward, it would start experiencing the reward before the reward even came. If the reward failed to show up, I would have a neurochemical response that looks very similar to
[46:21] depression. Depression in in in many cases is actually a when your cases is actually a when your expectations fail to be actualized that the that you have sort of a backlash of in in your pleasure response. That was a
[46:36] work pretty well. It seemed to explain a lot of things. Not everything, but a lot lot of things. Not everything, but a lot of things. But now we're we're thinking that like actually that model might be incomplete, right? Like if if I can
[46:50] change the food noise, if I can change the craving inside my head and and we don't even really know what craving means in this capacity, right? Am I craving the reward? Am I craving the quieting of something in my head? Am I
[47:03] cra am I craving simply meeting expectations? If we we're learning that like that's much more complicated and GLP1s will give us a window into experimenting with that. Like if can we identify a certain
[47:17] that. Like if can we identify a certain type of addiction? Can we use a GLP-1 to reduce that addiction? Can we figure out what specifically the GLP1 is doing inside our brains? What glucagen is doing inside our brains to affect that
[47:31] that that addiction? Then we're learning a lot about how habitual behaviors emerge. And that's really really valuable. So that's what I think is years, probably the next 5 to 10 years, is that we're going to gain a much much
[47:44] better understanding of the mechanics of habit formation, the mechanics of craving, the mechanics of anticipation, and how to influence those in a way and and the mechanics of reward sensations and learn how to influence those in a
[47:59] and learn how to influence those in a way that gives us more power over over ourselves. >> Yeah. So yeah, you can uh you know kind of because the addictions usually aren't your true self in a sense that um you're
[48:13] being hijacked by your own neurochemistry. >> Yeah. No, absolutely. Absolutely. And and and again much like I can get hijacked by bad eyesight and so I use a tool glasses to to overcome it. You can
[48:27] get hijacked by by a the biology of addiction. And so using a tool to whether you know in some cases it's like methadone for opiate addiction or using a GLP1 to quiet the craving. That tool allows me to be the person I
[48:42] want to be. >> Yeah, that's super interesting. Um people learn more about you and your work? >> Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So um my my you can buy the power of habit
[48:55] anywhere you read books. Uh my website is charlesdoohig.com and that's just d charles duh hi gg. I also have a newsletter that comes out that sort of uses science to explain how to become better versions of ourselves.
[49:09] It's called the science of better. And you can sign up at my at my newsletter or you can find it on Substack. And then if people want to learn more about N, if you literally just type NOM into your search bar, um you'll find the website.
[49:23] download the app and what the app does and how to use it. It also tells you how and how to use it. It also tells you how you can order GLP1s through N. show notes. And my last question is, what's this one piece of advice or habit
[49:38] that you wish you had updated sooner? >> Oh, that's a good question. I mean, I think that I think the biggest thing is just to realize how much power and control you have over your own life, right? I think
[49:53] particularly when you're younger, it's very easy to to to feel like there's a lot of path dependency. Well, I went to I went to a mid-tier college, so I'm never going to get like the big fancy job. Or I, you know, I I'm someone who
[50:08] struggled with it for 18 years or 25 years. And so it seems unlikely that I'm going to be able to change that. But what we've learned is that again to that neuroplasticity you mentioned, any habit can be changed. Any habit, there is
[50:22] someone in this world who will drink their last drink today and will never will give up cigarettes today and they will never smoke another cigarette. And they might have been people who drank or smoked for 40 years. They might have
[50:37] addicted in nicotine. But there are people every day who change those habits that seem so difficult to change. And so that's the thing I would say is that any habit is wi is within your reach if you have a system if you have an
[50:53] understanding of how that habit works and if you have a system to change that habit and then for some of them if you take advantage of the tools that are easier. Yeah. Yeah. That's a very good good uh
[51:08] more powerful than you think. You might just need help. >> All right. Well, it was great to talk with you and thanks for coming. >> You as well. Thanks for having me on.
[51:21] want to discover your health percentage and get your road map to top 1% of the link in the description. I'll see you there.