[00:01] >> This uh podcast is sponsored by Odyssey Bau, the special Odyssey Bureau that gets you nothing but good memories cuz you ain't drunk. So drink some Odyssey be today. That's just Tom Holland dropping in to talk about his new
[00:15] Odyssey Bureau stuff. We are here to talk about the Odyssey though. You're as big of a Christopher Nolan fan as I am Griffin. So be the perfect person to get on the show. You've got an IMAX cap on. You've got a June t-shirt on. You're
[00:28] loving it. the we also managed to get the guy the uh Hamilton Odyssey watch and >> that was you, man. Yeah, that was that that. >> So, Gri Griffin basically edited my
[00:41] entire watch video, the the James Bond one. I think I've tricked him into loving watches and then he saw the Odyssey one today and was like, "Will We managed to secure one. I'm going to send them out. And I'm actually wearing
[00:54] my Hamilton from Interstellar. So, it's a bit of a Nolan watch day, but no one cares about that other than us. And what they do care about is the Odyssey. So, I talked about it privately where you were saying you you enjoyed it,
[01:10] >> but you weren't that high on it and it there were certain problems that you had with it and I did feel the same way. I've been asked a couple of times what I of 10 off a first watch. >> I do feel like it'll go higher.
[01:23] >> You've seen it a couple of times now. How do you feel after a couple of >> Yeah, I've seen I've seen it twice now and as I kind of assumed it would, it played much better on the rewatch. I I not that it played bad the first time
[01:37] watching. I think it was I mean the the the film or sorry the the poem kind of midst of everything that's going on. It's you know the typical media's res kind of starting point. Nolan does that in his movies, but for whatever reason,
[01:52] the way that the this film started, the first time I saw it, and the way it was kind of moving through the narrative and and catching us up with everything that and catching us up with everything that was going on was a bit was a bit jarring
[02:05] and and I also think that it was the first time where I felt the the technical constraints of of the project. Like, you know, it's been reported that he could not go over three hours. there there were technical like IMAX could not
[02:19] be projected technically projected uh for over three hours so there were technical limitations that necessitated the runtime that we got and the first time watching I thought >> you know there's there are moments like
[02:31] Nolan as a filmmaker I think is incredibly skilled at uh making us feel something in in lingering with moments uh in order to to get every bit of emotion out of a scene and out of his actors as possible and there were a
[02:44] couple of moments specifically uh when they went to Hades and he was conversing with Elliot Page's character and then Agamemnon and stuff like that where it felt like it was a bit it was going through stuff in a bit like too too
[02:56] rapidly and I'm like that this is a really profound moment uh of revelation that I wish we had been able to linger with a bit more and there were other instances of that throughout the film where I thought like the movie had to
[03:09] keep moving because they literally could not go longer and so I was like you know minutes to it I think we'd be looking at a much much better film. And so, yeah, the pacing was definitely something that I think affected me the first go around.
[03:24] Second go around absolutely did not feel that way at all. I I a lot of those issues of just like, you know, lingering emotional I they hit me harder. Uh the the opening stuff and getting situated like with a lot of his films. Um I that
[03:40] that start in a similar way. I I was just kind of like ready for it. I I I think I it it functioned a bit more effectively for me. So yeah, I I don't know. I it's a lot of the criticisms that I had I I I if someone made those
[03:58] be like, "Yeah, I get what you're saying." But I think for me, they know? >> Yeah. One of the big editing issues I noticed was around the Cersei scene when Yeah. when Adicius shows up and they
[04:12] kind of just sit down and chat through stuff and it kind of goes quite quickly into pigs, but there's not necessarily like him the realization and that actually really horrifying and it's like oh crap I've got to get out of here.
[04:26] through things. So definitely I do agree with the editing with that. A lot of Nolan films do just drop you in at the deep end and Inception is like the perfect example of that. And I know it's kind of based around a dream where you
[04:39] don't necessarily know what's going on from the off. You just kind of find yourself in it. But I do find that with a lot of Nolan's stuff like Oenheimimer, Interstellar, they sort of introduce you to the characters and the concepts, but
[04:52] first, especially if you don't know the characters. Luckily, I have been back through the Odyssey and I do I am aware of this stuff, but I can see from a of this stuff, but I can see from a general audience members perspective how
[05:05] it is laid out a bit strange. Like normally you would have Tmicus going and things through that way, which he does kind of do, but even with that, you still have before that the events like the Trojan horse and the him being on
[05:19] the island with Calypso and it can be kind of you're trying to get your bearings. And when I was watching it the first time, I was very much sitting there thinking of my knowledge of the book and going, "Oh, when is this? All
[05:31] must be this bit." Yeah. >> So, yeah, I do kind of get that and I Nolan films. You know, Tenet was one of those ones where >> I didn't fully vibe with it the first watch and then it was on multiple
[05:46] everything fit together and it just worked so well. And yeah, it's just I do I did enjoy it, especially the last 45 minutes, I would say, where it all kind of crescendos up, ramps up this big thing, and it's just
[05:59] >> got so many big scenes back to back and not even ones that unnecessarily action scenes like even, you know, Odicius sitting with the the door in between him and Penelope just talking about things works really well. And I think there are
[06:13] some fantastic moments and towards the end everything just kind of fell into place and a lot of the issues that I had with the film earlier just swept away with the film earlier just swept away when he pulls this the bow string go and
[06:25] >> No, no, it's it's it's such a great it's such a great moment especially because of like what that moment means like what it's set up to mean earlier in the film and then with it being we're talking spoilers I'm assuming, right?
[06:38] >> Yeah, it's a spoiler review. It's on the thumbnail. We did I didn't warn anyone, you >> to be fair, it's like a >> 3000 about the watches. Yeah. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. But no, when he when
[06:51] established that at the beginning with it being like I'm going to like I only pluck my bow when I'm hunting, right? To give to to like show like honor and creatures or whatever them that I'm about to do. But then he won't pluck it
[07:06] there's like a distinction in his mind even though to the victim it is literally the exact same thing. And then at the end when he plucks it before he okay now you have come to the realization that it's like you you
[07:21] all of these contradictions that you've carried within yourself. you're owning them and you're just going to act and do the right thing and you're g like, you bow and you'll you'll like give them the honor uh whatever of of letting them
[07:36] know you're going to kill them. >> Yeah. I love when some of them are just start kneeling down and it's just like I'm just giving up. I'm just I'm taking >> But yeah, I kind of wanted to just start at the beginning and sort of work
[07:50] through the film. >> It is nonchronological storytelling. I'm possible, but it's going to be jumping all over the place. So, we begin with Travis Scott with the like a face, a war, a fleet, a man, a Thor, a trick.
[08:08] It's very It reminds me a lot of The Greatest Showman where it's like very sort of heavily heavily centered around the score and banging away in like a rhythmic thumping thing. >> Yeah, sure. Yeah. So, he was also quite
[08:21] a big controversy around the movie, his casting. And I think it's a shame because it's difficult to go into this movie without thinking about the weeks >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I think the film has a lot of I've
[08:36] seen a review describe it as a lot of stress tests up first and you have Paige and there's just lots of things where it's like if you can go with this, movie. Some people will have problems with it. We've seen that online. There's
[08:49] lots of people who haven't even seen the Odyssey telling you that the Odyssey is >> But I thought this was just a really gripping way to start things that kind of just immediately grabbed your attention because it's very rhythmic and
[09:02] just something that's simple. It's it's just words to a beat and it just kind of grabs your attention. >> Yeah. Well, it's it's the film, you know, setting up that this is this is a a a retelling. This is this is like the
[09:16] Odyssey, >> you know, back when when it, you know, back in the day and everything like that. It was a it was an oral poem that was recited and performed and the interpretation was then passed down to
[09:29] through the through, you know, through the bard and everything like that. And in a sense, this is Nolan doing the same thing. Uh and I think that's a great way of establishing right off the bat of like, okay, this is going to be the
[09:42] Odyssey. this and and it's going to be told to you through the voice of Christopher Nolan just as the bard is recounting the the Odyssey to you know that. >> Yeah. And I think a lot of people say
[09:58] accurate to the Odyssey, but I don't even think the Odyssey is accurate to the Odyssey because, you know, it was told for so many times and in different ways and then Homer kind of puts tales together and and crafted this narrative.
[10:11] And >> it's I would say it's more Nolan's interpretation of the Odyssey. And I kind of compare it a lot to theater where it's just like actors of the day kind of brought on to do like part and
[10:25] and drop about. But obviously it's bigger scale than that. But I did find the beginning quite difficult to gel with when Tom Holland's kind of running around Ithaca and sort of seeing the suitors and stuff and
[10:38] he's training on the hill and it's kind of and you know they're going through look if you make him look like you're weak then it's going to draw people in and it's going to make them attack and then you're going to be able to take
[10:51] that moment and flip it on them. And that does kind of speak to a lot of the combat moves within the film. For for example, you know, Adysius at the end appears like a beggar and gets everyone to kind of pick on him and underestimate
[11:04] him and then they're caught off guard when he reveals who he is and they're all kind of shocked more than anything instead of like fully assessing the situation. >> Yeah. So, in hindsight, I did like those
[11:16] bits, but getting into them, I thought it was there was sort of a false start to the film almost because we had the sinn bit with the the horse, the Trojan horse, and then kind of jumped about and it was kind of like, well, which one are
[11:29] Calypso as well. And I know Christopher Nolan often has different plot threads kind of weaving together. But I did find that a bit difficult. It was more kind of instead of being sucked into the film, I was existentially trying to
[11:43] process what was going on and how these stories work together. >> Sure. Yeah. No, I think that's that's totally fair. I think I probably felt mean like you you you talk about Tenant where Tenant being a film that uh took a
[11:57] little bit for you to get on board with when you were watching the first time. I think for me one of the reasons that film hooked me so immediately is because of that the intensity and the the visceral nature of that opening. A lot
[12:10] of a lot of his films have like a very similar like a lot of his films that start in media res I think have a very similar uh kind of approach like you kind of just like drops you into the middle of what's going on but they drop
[12:22] you into the middle of a heist. with Dunkkirk. It drops you into the middle following this guy and you have no idea what's what's happening. I mean, the >> Yeah. Right. Right. >> Did you start off with like wondering
[12:36] he he's drowning in the tank and he's rushing backstage and kind of jump back >> Yeah. Yeah. >> What's What's all this what's going on? >> Yeah. No, no, no. Totally. Totally. And like the the same with The Dark Knight
[12:49] Rises like Yeah. You get the little Gordon speech, but then it goes into, which is like one of the most exhilarating things he's ever crafted. we could go on. I think the reason that this is this took a little bit for me to
[13:04] process or or at least wrap my head around is because he always starts his movies with, you know, we're big Bond fans with a Bondesque pre-title sequence that kind of gets you into the feeling of the movie, grips your attention, and
[13:17] then like takes you on this journey. So the the you know jumping in in medius res is a little less like disorienting. He does not do that here which I think is actually one of the the riskiest things he's probably ever done in his
[13:30] career is taking that style and then trying to you know move you around I think with Oppenheimer it's a little bit it's it it works a bit more because
[13:42] there is such an intense focus and there's such an intense existential character and like yeah we kind of just jump into the proceedings of his life but there is there's room to breathe I
[13:54] think in the beginning of that film that really just like it gets you it I don't know it it allows you to inhabit his headsp space and his worldview uh and how he sees things before it kind of like takes you through him in school and
[14:07] and whatnot. Not. So, yeah, this was um I I don't think I've ever for for as he's never really opened a film like that. And I think that's what took a little bit of getting used to. >> Yeah. But they do quite quickly
[14:21] establish all of the rules and stuff. For example, they quickly say Odysius is gone. His house is full of suitors trying to marry Penelope. He's been gone like I think 20 years roughly because they do say the Trojan War was 10 years
[14:35] ago and it's been eight years since then. But they also say the dog's 20 in the time there. But they quickly set that up and they also set up Zeus's law and how there's this thing where basically if a stranger enters your
[14:49] home, you have to show them kindness because they could be a god. And it just kind of civilization is built on the idea of being kind to strangers because just go out into the world and you could run into the wrong crowd and yeah, there
[15:02] would be trouble. So the all of society is built on people treating others how they would be treated, which is quite a strong throughine. And it's also something that Adius breaks by, you know, getting into Troy. They send that
[15:17] gift in and they're in someone else's home, quote unquote home, and they kind of what the suitors are doing to his home. So, there is some karma there. >> And it just kind of sets up the stakes and how, you know, Odicius is sort of
[15:32] trying to regain his honor and live with the guilt and everything that he's been through and how vile that his men were, they're willing to sacrifice sin on to to get make this thing look believable.
[15:46] >> And throughout the film, there is a lot of Odysius choosing to sacrifice his own men to get past things. And we even have like a a literal trolley scene where monster and he's told all this beforehand and he still chooses to
[16:01] though we could >> I don't know. There was another way to it altogether. >> Yeah. No, I I think that's kind of the I mean that's what makes him kind of like an Oenheimer like protagonist or
[16:16] there actually I found a lot of overlap between him and Cobb from Inception as well. Just sort of like the withholding of information but also like kind of like imprisoning himself in in this this reality.
[16:28] >> And and whatnot because of because the guilt the intense guilt that he feels. >> he just wants to get home really. He just wants to get home and Right. Right. He could easily have stayed at places, but they're like, "Well, you'll have to
[16:41] home, and they will all die at some point." He's still like, "Oh, well, I getting home." >> Yeah. Yeah. But it's but it's interesting because it's like he still tries to save them. I mean, I think
[16:55] there is this interesting and this is the case in a lot of Nolan films, this this idea of like, >> you know, your your like agency versus destiny or or fate and whatever. It's like can you actually control these
[17:08] things that are that are destined to be if time is you know linear and what's happened has happened you know do do your actions really matter and what not Adysius I mean he he still kind of like clings to the idea that I he he is going
[17:24] to try and act even if like he knows his men and he knows what they're going to do in a given scenario. I mean, you see him try different tactics where it's them, make them believe that they're going to be okay, and then we'll see
[17:37] mad at him, and he's like, "All right, well, I'll just tell him the truth." going to die. Don't do this, and you will live." And then they defy him anyways. So, there there is this kind of just like this inevitability for, you
[17:51] know, humanity's capacity for self-destruction that I found really >> uh profound. And also how that ties into the the idea of just like >> godhood and us being our own gods. I I think one of the reasons that Odysius
[18:07] goes on this journey that he does is because he's uh he he's sick of following Agamemnon. And it's like you followed him in the battle, you followed him and you allowed him to, you know, have this horrible victory over Troy.
[18:21] Why is it the moment that you need to return home and the moment that you probably should just follow him back? because at this point you're just trying to go home. Why is that the moment that you decide to defy him and then put
[18:34] everyone else at risk? There there is there's a defiance on his part there that I think is just birthed out of well intense guilt for sure and like needing to atone for everything, but also like he doesn't really know why
[18:47] he's defying, you know, his god and his god being Agamemnon other than just like things, so I'm just going to recklessly do something else. And then you see that trickle down to his men where his men get fed up with Adysius because he's
[19:03] doing things and they, you know, look to him. They kind of abdicate their agency and their responsibility to him. And Odysius is just a man and he's making decisions and sometimes they're the right decisions. Sometimes they're, you
[19:15] make the best decisions possible. And then his men get sick of it. And they don't want you making decisions." They go to Cersei's house and they make a terrible decision and they, you know, basically could have died in that
[19:30] instance, but Odysius came in and saved them. So there there is this I don't know this this interesting relationship between people who are like you know between people who are like you know they they claim to be devoted followers
[19:43] or whatever but they don't actually want to sit with the um uh the challenges of of being a devoted follower and not quite understanding you know uh your own your own faith or or whatever. I I just and then, you know, just recklessly
[19:59] lashing out because they feel uh because they're just mad, you know, they're not rabbit hole here, but like that that whole thing I I found like super super >> Yeah, I think there's definitely this idea of defying people and entities and,
[20:14] you know, Odicius defies the gods, his men defy him, >> Nun's wife defies him because she kills him because he was trying to appease the there's lots of things like that throughout. And I think the there's so
[20:30] not even going to really scratch the surface on here. But even the suitors surface on here. But even the suitors are kind of defying the gods by ignoring >> But in in the beginning, it's very much about duty and following things.
[20:44] Zanadicius and Penelopey have a really touching goodbye where they kind of lay in the bed and you know he's got his son in front of him but Agamenon calls towards him who is just aura farming throughout the whole movie.
[20:56] He really is >> Benny Safy when he was speaking it just they held off on his voice for so long and I was imagining him him having like a >> this you must like that sort of like a
[21:09] >> and it was just kind of like yeah I got home and my wife she stabbed me right in the throat y'all what was that about? Um, so but as far as costume design goes, I thought it was excellent when they actually open the doors to Troy and
[21:24] people run past him. It's like a [ __ ] Darth Vader or something. say I saw someone compare it to Darth Vader. It's like it is literally it's the Darth Vader one. >> Yeah, right. It is the Rogue One scene.
[21:38] No, it's it's so effective. I love that. I I love that they don't have him speak him speak and you're kind of just like taken off guard by it. you're like, "Oh, a guy." And >> yeah, I suppose that's a good read on
[21:51] it. Yeah, definitely. >> But yeah, I did quite like seeing Adysius just at home. And there was the puppy scene where, mate, I tell you, >> John Legu was when he throw when he threw that first puppy over the cliff. I
[22:03] was like, "What the mate? I hope he's you still get [ __ ] up for that." He does go blind. He does go through a lot. But yeah, Dia takes the second puppy, August, and then he sets out on a gives a heartfelt goodbye. You know, they talk
[22:15] about maybe going into exile and sailing away one day and just living their life, which does come full circle at the end. >> Odicius also makes her promised, I mean, I'm going from memory here, but makes her promise to remarry or something.
[22:29] It's something where it's like, yeah, you must remarry or something. And she gives him the Athena totem as well to carry with him, which is kind of, you know, symbolic of her love, his connection to home. Um, Athena in
[22:41] general, who follows him throughout the movie. And it's kind of this one tie that he carries with him throughout very close to him that is also in that watch YouTube. >> We're going to have to do like a we're
[22:53] everything for that when that comes in. We'll just like we'll open it up and Yeah. No, but I I loved I love that the Athena pin was basically just like a interpreted was just sort of like him her her giving that to him and like her
[23:08] being I mean that whole scene where where I can't remember who says it if it was her or him, but the the idea of like love being like torturous and and painful at times and like really testing like your devotion to one another and
[23:21] that and knowing that it's not going to be a like a one-way street like a one constantly like take from. you're going to have to give some of yourself in order for this thing to to be what you want it to be. And you see Penelopey go
[23:36] course of the film, which I think is so profoundly acted by uh you know, Anne Hathaway. I think she does an incredible incredible job with those moments and the the simmering frustration and rage just bubbling underneath the surface.
[23:51] She she's so good. She's so good in the movie. But then the way that love kind of like ties back into like the spirituality aspect of it where people relationship with the gods. They're acting in ways that are antithetical to
[24:05] their beliefs and yet they'll kind of like invoke the god's name when when it suits them. And so that's you know this this Nolan guy, he knows know. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I mean Tom Holland heads
[24:20] out or Telmicus he heads out alongside Reinhurst who I've just seen today is no Apparently he's had a right >> a major inj injury. Yeah. And they've for him to get better. I don't know what the hell is going on there. But yeah, he
[24:35] and thinking, "Oh, this is like God of War and he's he's killing it." So I that and then maybe go, "Oh, well, we'll give him a bit more time." But he heads off to Menaaus and he's instantly welcomed in in you kind of see Zeus's
[24:50] law where he's brought up to see the king himself and he also introduces Helen of Troy who's like the face girl launch a thousand ships more like 500 now and she's all cut up and she kind of represents the cost of war I think and
[25:03] time and how it's ravaged everything and she also is someone who the war was she also is someone who the war was declared to go and get her but it clearly It was for other reasons. It wasn't It's like we're going to go
[25:17] Hussein is >> bad or something and really they want >> Yeah. >> Well, I mean it's I mean it's the classic case of Yeah. literally. I mean, it is the it's it's kind of what I was
[25:30] just saying where it's like people invoking these very like emotional like personal ideas, whether it's like love or or or faith or whatever in the name of something horrific where they they have ulterior motives, but they kind of
[25:44] just want to, you know, abdicate their own responsibility. thought that was a really >> they allegedly get the oil. Yeah. >> Allegedly. It's not alleged. >> Yeah. But yeah, there it's quite a good
[26:00] scene and that kind of takes us back to Troy and we see them inside the Trojan horse which I've never thought about how grueling that would be. But they were >> pissing and [ __ ] The tide was coming in. They were drowning. It was
[26:13] just a horrendous place to be and they hadn't even started the mission at that dragged in slowly and then they're sticking swords through it to check if people are in. And there's people in the crowd shouting like burn them and stuff.
[26:26] mate. This is a nice horse." It's like if you see like a nice couch at like a dump or something and you're like, "We pick up the couch. We're taking that hiding inside of it to rob you. So yeah, they put that inside and then eventually
[26:41] they put that inside and then eventually the the Trojan, not the Trojans, Adius's men come out and they then open up the doors for Agamenon's forces to come in. And we don't get the full sacking of Troy here yet, but it's quite a
[26:53] thrilling scene. >> Yeah. And I was really just feeling like almost I don't know an overwhelming sense of like oh [ __ ] it's about to to kick off and it does but when they take it further in the film it really takes
[27:06] scene as well. >> Yeah I think the the distinction is is like and it is perfect because it's it's it's when you when you consider like who is telling the story. Menaaus is telling it and of course that entire sequence is
[27:19] like thrilling on the on the edge of your seat just like in completely like just locked into the the intensity of what's going on. There's like the thrill that I think Nolan really channels there. And then when Odysius tells it,
[27:33] it's a bit more horrific. It's a bit more harrowing. You're seeing things that perhaps the other version of the story told is omitting. Um, and that you really you feel the weight of what that Trojan horse was. It was not just this
[27:49] like, you know, really incredible brilliant military victory. There was like a cost that came with that and the way that those play, you know, they're on the person telling the story I thought was brilliant. I actually wanted
[28:04] to know if you got like Dunkirk vibes when they were like stuck in the horse. when they're stuck there for 10 years get inside. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. I was Yeah. I was like,
[28:17] Yeah, I see you circling back to the >> Yeah. Dunkerk has the the boat scene as well where they kind of try and sail out and people start shooting at it and it's kind of like, oh, can we can we keep going?" Yeah, definitely. I think I
[28:32] >> Yeah. But basically they take Troy, they go arch I think do they go archery ring go arch I think do they go archery ring at this point and Tmicus um and they kind of talk about things and then you know it's Tmicus basically learning what
[28:47] his dad was actually like which brings him to tears and he's not experienced him and this is he's hearing him through someone who really knew him and sort of seeing what he's like. But then after that, we then see what happened after
[29:00] the war when they decide to return home. And uh everyone's like packing up ready to sail home and like, "Oh, Agamenon's going that way. We're not going to go can just go do what we want for a bit, but I'm not following the boss cuz he he
[29:15] But yeah, they all head home, or they think they do, and they come, we learn film, we discover they've been up to no good and kind of landing on places and sacking them. And there is one village that they go to, a coastal village where
[29:29] all the villagers flee and they're like, "Do you not know Zeus's law? You're him anyway. >> Yeah. Right. Exactly. >> It's It's off camera, but I think the guy they have hostage, one of the guys
[29:42] spins the knife almost as if he's going to kill him and then we kind of Okay. Yeah. I don't I don't remember that. I I'll have to like just kind of check and see that for what like when I when I go back to do my rewatch. But I I
[29:55] don't know if you got this, but to me and I mean this is definitely like in know post-atomic bomb drop and everything like that. But to me that sequence was giving like big Vietnam war energy where it's like no we're the good
[30:08] guys. We're like coming in here but like we're kind of like burning but it's like okay we're you're burning down villages. You're stealing their food. You're terrorizing the people. are you really the good guys? You know, and
[30:21] imagery with it, I I don't know. To me, it gave Vietnam war vibes, but that also could just be me projecting something that I was thinking about or whatever in >> To be fair, though, Vietnam, I'm sure, is a lot more talked about and discussed
[30:36] in America, whereas it's not really part of our history curriculum. It's just not. It's like >> like the Civil War and Independence Day and stuff. We don't really learn that in school over here at all. Yeah.
[30:48] normally from speaking to Americans, which when I was growing up, I didn't, and we didn't have the internet and there wasn't like I couldn't just text an American straight away and be like, "Hey, mate, what's what's all this stuff
[31:01] about the tea you've been dumping into the harbor? What's what's that about?" stuff in school. And it Yeah. So, Independence Day and things like that and Vietnam, we I kind of it's going to sound so ignorant, but I learned most of
[31:15] the stuff I know about Vietnam through Vietnam movies. So, um Rambo. >> Platoon, Full Metal Jacket. >> Yeah, >> that sort of thing. Apocalypse Now, whereas I'm sure you guys probably study
[31:27] >> Yeah, we So, because of that, my mind just doesn't default to instantly like seeing, you know, soldiers burning a village being like, "Oh, that well that's a Vietnam thing." Oh, no. For sure. For sure. I think I think I was I
[31:40] like, okay, this is like post Oenheimer, post atomic bomb. If you're thinking of like America as this civilization, okay, what was the things that they tried to do to kind of like control their own fate? That was But to to your point, it
[31:53] not to get too much off on the tangent, but like for as much as uh you know, we are aware of the Vietnam War, I I still think that it's an area that we don't because it's like >> we [ __ ] up in that instance. And so
[32:06] things where it's like you want to get the fullest like you know insight into research on it. So it's Yeah. >> Yeah. But I noticed that quite a lot >> Yeah.
[32:20] >> I'll clearly see illusions to TUDA stuff and like Henry VIII and the Middle Ages and stuff that we learn. And I noticed that a lot of American breakdown breakdowners don't pick up on it because it's not something I think you guys
[32:34] would have learned. Whereas for us it's like drilled into our heads when we're >> Queen Elizabeth stuff like that and Henry that's all middle school is just >> Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. I I love that. I love that kind of just like Yeah. It's
[32:48] >> But yeah, the the guys So the guys are land on a place, see some sheep. They're follow." They go straight into the cave. Like they've got this guy's got cheese.
[33:00] He's got loads of cheese. These cheese sacks are pretty big actually. bit bit strange that and then we have just them hearing something turning around and just a hand just comes in and then yeah the boulder goes up and it just becomes
[33:14] >> where there's something in the darkness you can't quite see it and I love the kind of >> when he's eating his face is kind because his head's tilted it kind of you can see how it would look normally but
[33:29] he puts it up and it's like all twisted and disfigured. I know the cyclops in the original poem talks a lot more and they kind of talk back and forth. Dialogue that they have in the poem is quite funny and it shows how witty that
[33:43] Adysius is. But I do like that they kind of keep the Cyclops as something that just won't speak to them and they touch upon how you know you don't you wouldn't speak to an ant and it's just kind of this weird abstract thing that they're
[33:55] trapped in with and they're like do we kill it? Even the fact it's going to sleep around them is like it clearly doesn't care and it just views them as food rather than seeing them as something that could stand up to it. H
[34:07] but yeah, just the score at this point as well and the way they use music and darkness and I thought it really came together in this moment and it's it it sort of becomes a puzzle. Adysius even gets out and decides to go back in
[34:23] >> he wants to help his men navigate this threat. And it sort of becomes like a a sort of how do I get everyone out and kind of figure out how to beat this thing? And that's to the point that he even has to boast almost upon escaping
[34:36] >> Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you you mentioned you mentioned like people taking issue with the fact that he doesn't engage in like a a verbal, you know, exchange with with a guy. He's not he's not exercising his intellect or or
[34:50] lording his intellect over this Cyclops, but Nolan still keeps like the core essence of that, which is that Odysius is beating down on a creature that is you know, simple. He's a farmer, right? He's just kind of doing his thing. And
[35:04] Odysius is like using it as an opportunity to like exercise some of his going to save my men." It's like like, "Fuck you. You're a monster." Whatever. And so the last thing that he does to kind of do that is to is to shoot him.
[35:17] He's like helpless. They've already escaped. What point is there to to shoot him other than for his own hubris, which is similar to, you know, what he does in the uh in the poem with with the with the verbal exchange. It's just he's not
[35:29] speaking to him. He's he's acting, which feels more in line with the way Nolan >> Yeah. And it works for for a movie. And it does. The Cyclops gets really annoyed and chases after them. And had Adius not done that, they probably would have got
[35:43] stayed on the boat this whole trip. I'll just say that cuz whole time and wait there. >> And they see that definitely in the next place, which is the Lragonians. >> Oh, the Lonian. Yeah. Yeah.
[35:58] arrive on the shore. I knew straight away as soon as I seen like the back of the person hunched down, I was like, "Oh, this is going to be a kid who's a >> Yeah. >> And then they're just kind of like,
[36:12] "What?" And then screams and then just that army must have been just sat waiting for someone to show up cuz they just start walking towards them. All the hell breaks loose. And I like how it flips the positions on these conquerors
[36:26] going anywhere they wanted, taking what they liked, and now they've hit a force that is just overwhelms them and >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean to to a similar sense, the same thing that happens with
[36:39] the Cyclops. Like every island they go to, they are confronted with someone who cannot like they were able to, you know, kind of work their way past the Cyclops because he's got one eye and like, you
[36:53] through and take advantage of like his one eye. But like with these guys, I giants. It's like what are what are you going to do against this? And these people clearly do not believe in the same things that you do. Therefore, like
[37:07] they're they're not it's like you coming in being like, "Hey, give me a meal. it." It's like, "No, they don't." Like, "Fuck you. We don't like we don't watch they've created. So, like, of course, they're going to be hostile towards
[37:20] them. >> Kind of like Rap going back to Rambo. >> is it John Rambo? What's the fourth one called? when the it's like the like we're going into a Burma war zone and we're going to show them
[37:35] and we're going to show them Christianity and be nice to them and and them to run across minefields and stuff and Rambo's like don't [ __ ] go there. >> So, yeah, it's kind of like don't expect people to initi like assimilate to you
[37:50] straight away and to show up and be instantly welcomed in. >> Yeah. which is kind of a flaw in Adesius as well because he's obviously lived by that law and we see what's happened to his home and it is kind of maybe putting
[38:02] a god up. I don't know. Don't know. But they then go to on the sea. They kind of start blaming Adysius for, you know, getting the gods to curse them by harming the Cyclops after they already beaten it. Um, and they feel like the
[38:16] gods are kind of punishing him for his pride. And that definitely comes to a just kind of down the coast. I would have sailed a bit further to be honest. I do wonder if it was if there was something in between that that they
[38:30] edited out to get it down to that runtime for IMAX. But it seems like they like the giants are all like rocking everyone else's ship and destroying the to get away and then they sail like 2 minutes down the road and they're like,
[38:42] >> that looks good. >> Yeah. Right. Yeah. But yeah, they land on Cersei's island and they kind of start seeing strange animals about like lions and tigers and bears. Oh my. But they're also like, "Look, Adysius, we're
[38:58] going to do go do this, mate. You It's a m It's a If you want it to be a mutiny, it will be, but uh you just chill out." And he's like, "Well, least I can do is go get some food." So he goes off and goes hunting. Kind of sees a deer. He's
[39:10] goes hunting. Kind of sees a deer. He's very sportsmanlike. He makes the bow noise to warn the prey and then chases it. And they go into Cersei's house and kind of This is where I felt like they just edited it down a bit too much where
[39:22] it wasn't really sitting with certain moments in their initial meeting where it was like, "Yeah, sure. Come in, sit down, have some food." That like buildup or questioning. It was just kind of going straight into it.
[39:35] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I It was I I think it was I think the cool Yeah. What's cool about it is you're contrasting how Odysius kind of navigates the world and why he's like as skilled as he is because he's
[39:47] he's he's used to kind of like thinking on his own and so he's like viewing things and he's able to see that stuff is out of place whereas the men are just followers. So, they're going to go in and they're going to just like, you
[40:01] know, like believe in Zena in Zeus's law and believe that they are going to be like treated hospitably even though they have not done that to other people. Even though people like them have caused someone like Cersei to be the person
[40:15] that she is. And so, yeah, it's like it's like Odysius is like clearly aware of the fact that like they're doing not great things and that this is probably going to have effects on their journey. And then yeah, the man is like that
[40:28] you're you're you're incapable without someone who can perceive the world the way Odysius can. >> Yeah. So she gets them to chow down on >> I love the body horror stuff in this where she just kind of starts rubbing
[40:41] them and their noses come out cuz it's all practical. It reminded me a lot of like that >> where it's very much in camera. The actors physically doing it. It's makeup, the ears ch even just the ear changing
[40:57] could see how they did it where she kind of rubbed it and obviously they swapped the ear around and stuff but it's just nice seeing something that isn't CGI practically and that was kind of seen throughout the scene and the squealing
[41:11] you've got Adysius discovering the deer at this point as well. You know, he's tracking it. He shoots it a couple of times. He chases it and then discovers a naked man and then the penny drops that these guys are becoming pigs. And then
[41:24] loads of pigs and they're banging on the door and stuff trying to get them to not eat the food and they just it's clear he's figured things out and they just have a nice back and forth and Cersei from her point of view is doing the
[41:38] were going to come in and just take what they wanted. >> It wouldn't be just the food. It would be more than that. and she's turning them into pigs. Does she say that she's she doesn't even choose what they
[41:50] >> They kind of >> guide themselves to that. >> That I mean kind that's kind of my assumption of it. I'm or or I mean you know she basically is like well your your men are pigs like like I'm just
[42:02] away and it's like this this is who they are. They're animals. changing them back and says to go back to your disguise. >> Yeah. Yeah. Good line. Yeah. >> It was a great line. Yeah. No, for sure.
[42:16] I I think it is like Yeah. They they come in kind of expecting all these the suitors just continue to take and take and of course like she has every right to be afraid given like stuff that she's kind of experienced in this new
[42:29] world that exists of people coming into your home and Yeah. and like taking advantage of you. So like of course it's like they like they can say like oh we >> but is that true? It's like, do are you just saying that because you kind of got
[42:44] >> is it actually how you would have behaved? >> Yeah. I mean, the I think the cat will later on show that when push push comes they're still like, "We'll still just do it anyway. Whatever. [ __ ] [ __ ] the
[42:57] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And she, this is obviously like her way >> she's not killing the people. She's just turning them into animals. And even her sister, which is a bird, she says like, "Oh, we get a we get along better this
[43:10] >> Yeah. >> It's clear that she's not evil. >> The shades of gray to it. >> Yeah, for sure. I I think she is Yeah. I wouldn't I wouldn't say she's like strictly evil, but like she's uh Yeah.
[43:24] Like like it is it is like it's wrong, but also at the same time, what is wrong killing them. and she's just kind of like turning them into animals and she's turning them into people that or turning them into animals that they already were
[43:37] kind of like representative of in real life. So is in her mind at least it's like am I really doing anything different or am I just exposing the id of of these people you know? Well, yeah. And I think from a certain point of
[43:49] view, Cersei is the hero of her story. And if these guys are like the suitors, the suitors are the bad guys. And you know that she's in her home. And there there is a version of this story where she's just milling about her form just
[44:03] show up, these soldiers show up to take over. And there's kind of her fighting back and and doing what she can to not even kill them, just >> turn them into pigs. >> Well, she directs. Sorry. Go ahead.
[44:16] even even down to the fact where it's like she was not going to kill the pigs, but she was like, "Hey, Odysius, pick pick a hog. You can kill him." dinner right there. She's like, again, she's kind of like she did this thing,
[44:29] but she's abdicating her responsibility being like, "Well, if you want to eat, men." And it's like, which is basically what he's been doing this whole time. It's just in a more like literal sense, I guess, there.
[44:41] >> Yeah. Like someone dies every place they go to on his road home. >> And that takes us to the land of the dead, Hades, where they just sail to. >> And this is Yeah. Quite a It's quite a haunting scene. It's not over the fact
[44:55] like over the top effects wise. It's just people covered in black sand >> But the way they move them and kind of Agamenon floats in and >> Morticia Adams sort of thing. >> Yeah. Right.
[45:09] >> You got Sinn coming up. And this is kind of where we learn more about Sinnin and Antinineas. I keep I had to re-record my breakdown with his name twice because I kept second guessing how his name was.
[45:22] >> Antinius. Antinius. >> So, we basically found out that there had been a lottery for people to go to Troy and Sinn had taken his place and there'd be protection and I'd look after your family and stuff like that. I did
[45:37] love as well how throughout the movie Robert Patatterson's constantly like I I tried to volunteer to go to Troy. I was going straight there. I wanted to go the whole time. He just constantly tries to make himself look like he's a hero. And
[45:51] >> chucking the dog out and getting it dumped on a pile of dump. >> He's basically doing it like, "Oh, we must treat this dog well." Yes. Take him outside to give him some air. Yeah. >> So, yeah, this is kind of a big reveal
[46:04] with Sinnin. And it's also in this moment that we learn that Odicius >> Yeah. >> And it just shows again that idea of sacrifice and using people as a resource and them being pawns in a game rather
[46:18] interests at heart and being what a leader is normally seen as. I think what's interesting about that is because of the person that Son was uh
[46:30] and the the loyalty and devotion and because they were someone who was genuinely there they were fighting for the right reasons. I think had you know Robert Patton and Tinius gone to Troy he would have gone for glory. He would have
[46:43] be a martyr or whatever. He wouldn't have gone for the right reasons which is have gone for the right reasons which is why son is the one who ultimately goes. But I think the tragedy of that moment is like Odysius realizing like because
[46:55] of the person Son was if you had just told them they they would have just done it anyways. And and he's like he's like well I was with you the whole time like like well >> what comfort does that bring me when I
[47:07] you're there. It's like if you had just told me that I like I would have been and I still would have done it because of the the virtues that live within me. And and I think that's the moment for Odysius where he recognizes like, you
[47:22] know, I don't always need to like I I know the the the people who are loyal and the people who aren't and who are just like doing this for for optics and perhaps I should trust my own instincts and and be honest with people um
[47:35] including myself uh about these things. So I Yeah, that was a really really profound moment for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I like the way that Agame Menon is kind of telling him not to go home almost because he talks about
[47:49] we kind of learned throughout the movie that he'd sacrificed his daughter for certain way or something along those lines. I'm sorry if I keep getting minor and it's a lot to kind of take in, but it was something about sacrificing to
[48:04] >> Yeah. >> And his wife's been waiting for him. She bathes him, combs his hair, makes him look all fancy, and then stabs him in the throat because he killed their daughter. And I love that reveal as
[48:18] well. And it kind of does say that when you get home, don't expect everything to just go smoothly and for a door be like just showing up at the door. And yeah, I think just that with Sinn and then the the stuff with Agammen on it works
[48:32] really well. Now, the let's go moment was a massive point in of contention kind of want to use this as a moment to segue into the dialogue for the film. thought worked really well because it
[48:46] and he's he's not saying like, "Let's [ __ ] go." He's saying it like, "Let's go and get out of here." It's not like, "Let's go." So, yeah, he's saying to his men, "Let's go and get to the boat and leave." not not how it was interpreted
[49:00] >> But saying that, the dialogue it did take me a while to gel with. And I don't know if it's because I'm British. I don't know if it's because fantasy is >> Yeah, >> there was some bit and I don't know if
[49:14] it's because Tom Holland and Robert Patton are British as well. I can hear that transatl transatlantic accent that they put on. It's just kind of the very generic accent that >> English actors do and you know Benedict
[49:28] Cumberbatch does it, Andrew Garfield does it where it's all kind of the same accent but it's not specific to a certain region of New York or not New York.
[49:42] like America's attempted like an elevated elegant elegant kind of accent. My my favorite part is when is towards the end of the film when Robert Pens is here. He like sounds like an old he sounds like an old movie starts. So it's
[49:57] like the best. It's like that and like the feast is done or over or whatever. like, "Oh, that's this is this is like a movie movie. This feels like an old movie." >> Yeah. Yeah. But I I didn't mind
[50:11] the anneronistic approach to the language as much because >> it did I did get into it and it was fine after a certain point. It was just a bit >> Well, I think it's it's kind of just indicative of like Nolan's whole whole
[50:24] view of of the story, right? Like I mean he we we often I think he he's made this thought was really brilliant. But he's like he's talked about how you know a lot of our perception of like this period of time
[50:37] is actually kind of colored in by like the Renaissance or or or stuff like that which was filtered through the prism of of like that time period. And so like of like that time period. And so like even what even what we think of as being
[50:51] like ancient Greece or or whatever isn't really what it is. And so like even down to the fact like with with like a lot of these old historical epics or these old the British accent things, like we've kind of just accepted that the British
[51:05] accent like it for whatever reason just feels like oh that's that's like the way that these movies should sound, but it's like that's not even really even remotely close to like how they would have actually spoke or whatnot. So, I
[51:19] like his I like his approach in making it a bit more contemporary, a bit more easily accessible to people to understand this like 30,000y old text and and the the timelessness of the essence of the story. Yeah. So, like I I
[51:32] nitpicking about historical accuracy like when it comes down to like dialogue and stuff like that, it's like you're you're thinking of something that it's just the way that things have been done, you know, in in in epics in the
[51:47] 20th century. That that's not necessarily true of like it's not the guess, is what I'm trying to say. >> Yeah. And I I've seen loads of things where it's like even if you went back to 1300 England.
[51:59] >> You wouldn't understand it at all because I mean, if you watch The Witch by Robert Edgars, he he really tries to nail down the language and style of talking. Yeah. And you watch parts of that and you think, I' got no [ __ ]
[52:11] idea what these guys are saying. And you can go even further back than that to like 1066 and stuff like around the battle of Hastings and the dialect and Shakespeare, >> a lot of that stuff you're like, well,
[52:25] I've got no [ __ ] idea what any of this means. And so going back thousands even you wouldn't have understood it anyway, even if they were speaking offthe-wall. But yeah, this is kind of lays out. It's at this point that the
[52:40] mate, you're going to sail past this thing. You're going to uh there's going You're going to have to decide, do we destroy the ship or do we lose six men?" And Adysius is very aware of what this cost is going to be. And he does kind of
[52:55] play where it's like, we've got maybe steer towards there, but if we can also like bend around the whirlpool and go that way and stuff. And yeah, just a great and I love when they kind of make it past the willpool and then there's a
[53:08] moment of just like and then Sila comes down, grabs the guy and pulls him up. think he's from the start of Tenet. He's one of >> Yeah. Yeah, he's one of those men. Yeah, I recognized him. I saw that guy.
[53:21] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Good moment. of the the Sila design? I thought I thought maybe didn't like it. You didn't thought maybe didn't like it. You didn't I I get it because it is like it's not
[53:34] very striking, but I I think within the uh you know the realism of the world he's created making it just like this really large barnacle that basically grabs people and stuff. That's like it's kind of like how those those things eat,
[53:47] kind of like operate. Am I like I I don't know. Maybe maybe I'm making that here. But like I was like, "Oh, that's kind of that's kind of cool. It's just a you." So yeah. Yeah, I don't know. But but I get it because that for a lot of
[54:01] >> we want to see this whole sequ you want it to be like the Kraken scene from Pirates of the Caribbean >> and it's not. And so I can understand some disappointment there. >> Kind of reminded me of Rocky from
[54:15] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Kind of like that. So yeah, they kind of ride on through that and then they get to the cattle of Helios. Oh, sorry. The sirens next, which is all putting wax in their ears and just kind
[54:27] of sailing past it and Adysius subjecting himself to it. And even that like, what? What the [ __ ] are you doing, mate? You are defying advice there by >> I like the way the sirens are shot as well where they're not they're sort of
[54:41] just people sitting on a rock and it's like you can see that they're women and stuff and all sexy and that, but there's not like a shot on the rocks themselves. distance that you kind of are drawn towards and want to see much like the
[54:55] sailors. >> Yeah. No, I agree. I think that the the effective. That whole sequence actually I thought was really really powerful. Just just him kind of being like told by the like the told through the song of
[55:09] just like all the promises he he failed to keep is basically the punctuation point on that that whole monologue that he gives right there. And I was like, "Yeah, that's that's like kind of the truth that he needs to hear and the, you
[55:22] know, him kind of coming to terms with with his own decisions." I mean, it's it is interesting that that happens right before the Silus stuff because it is the it is almost like him preemptively. It's like a bit of self flagagillation before
[55:34] he goes and like sacrifices these men. He's like, I have to I have to like kind >> I don't know like hurt myself a little bit in order for for this to be okay. >> Yeah. Yeah, they kind of offer surrender and
[55:49] there's a part of him that wants to stop fighting and he just doesn't want the He thinks about just >> maybe ending it all there and just that he was. And then that kind of takes us to the sacred cattle of Helios, which
[56:03] is not a massive scene. It's just them kind of sitting about and seeing the the cows and talking about how they tried to outlast the hunger and live there and knowing full well what the warning was. But I suppose we have these things in
[56:17] you're a religious person you've got the ten commandments if you're a Christian things and most of the stuff on there you might have done. >> oh no straight up >> not the murdering stuff. We all we've
[56:31] all been told like there's certain rules you just don't break and we still end up doing some of them and I can see on that island once you hit a point of being so hungry you just like >> we'll just have one. We'll just eat the
[56:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it is it is I love the line. I mean it's kind of funny when he you you think because you think the gods wouldn't notice if you ate quietly. Like really good. But it's true. It's like you think that be like the way the gods
[56:57] operate is like they don't they don't they don't abide by like human conventions like they they're they're all seeing they're all like you you know something or not done something and the fact that these people think that they
[57:10] can just like hide from them if they they can like break their convictions their beliefs and whatever it's going to you know it's going to come back to bite you in the ass. say I think that is that whole idea in the way like that that
[57:22] idea of faith and of like performative faith versus like actually being a true your guns like that that's that's something I think is is at the core of this and the men acting the way that they do I think really exposes that they
[57:38] uh yeah they're they're just they're they're kind of lost you know. >> Yeah. And I do like the way that in this movie you don't other than Athena you kind of like >> Zeus is a storm and that's it. And and
[57:52] of thunder and stuff and you know even when he's a beggar there's the sound of thunder and it's like is is that Zeus or not? And they play with that really >> They do. >> So yeah, they sail cuz the wind all of a
[58:05] sudden once they've eaten the cattle it's safe to sail back. And yeah, this is when the ship gets wrecked. And we got a strobe light warning at the start scene. >> Yeah, even I was like, "Mate, I might
[58:17] need to [ __ ] get out of here quick." >> I I was like, "Do I do I have epilepsy?" I was like concerned for a second. Like I was It was That was like powerful. >> light like Oh my god, it was a lot. It was a lot.
[58:31] was a lot. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, he sails off on a little bit. Uh his he sees his crew going down. I do kind of hope they been fine. But he goes to live with Calypso who's been giving him these
[58:44] lotus leafs or lotus flowers. Sorry. I would have lived there, mate. I would being immortal and lived there for thousands of years, mate. But >> Odicius is very much like Jason Bourne. He's got that thing that's calling to
[58:58] him and he starts remembering things and he also talks with Athena who we learned throughout the movie is someone that is kind of connected to Troy. So, she was that was kind of killed in front of him and it represents the guilt and
[59:14] >> what he what his war cost and how he should have stuck to Zeus's law. And she's kind of a reminder of that of how bad this army were that they just stormed the place and killed loads of innocent people who just so happened to
[59:27] live there. Which does kind of tie in with Oenheimer as well, I think, because obviously, you know, if you drop an atomic bomb, you're not just hitting to be people caught up in that who are innocent.
[59:39] >> And that was kind of what they unleashed on the on Troy. It was just everyone was >> Yeah. Yeah. 100%. I mean, even those those targets that they selected to drop the bombs on were like civilian targets. So, it's like you were you were
[59:53] >> Yeah. >> Yep. So, yeah, pretty messed up. Uh and jumped ahead there, but that does sort of circle us back around to the suitors who want to eliminate Tmicus. And they send a guy to I'm going to butcher the
[01:00:09] guy's name, John Leguismo. They send I probably mispronounced that as well. I name right, but they send gods to him. Yeah, they uh so they kill his dogs. Odysius at this point's decided to head home and he kind of comes across the
[01:00:23] farm, but they're also going to go assassinate Tamicus as well, who's coming back to Ithaca. So Adysius learns about this, goes and stops it in the temple of Athena. They all kind of make a break for it. It's a great moment and
[01:00:36] I love Adysius not being recognized by Tmicus was something that I always this because >> it's something that if they ever do a similar problem because that there's a returning character in that who's kind
[01:00:50] of dressed in robes and people suspect he's a certain person, but you can't out and outdo it. Whereas in a book, you can do that easily because you just you're film, it's quite hard to disguise it. And I thought the way they shot it where
[01:01:05] kind of just his hood up, his beard sort of popping out. That was a really good understand why he just thinks he's a beggar or one of his soldiers.
[01:01:17] >> Yeah. No, I I agree. I thought that was really it I mean, it was testing Tmicus in a sense. I mean, and the the the poem kind of points to this as well where it's just like Tmicus genuinely believes in Zeus's law and the core ethos of like
[01:01:30] treated. And so like he he shows respect for beggars and like even if the beggars are like just saying they know of Adysius or like where he might be just going to turn them away, right? Like they're still going to he's still going
[01:01:46] to like speak privately. And it just so happens that one of, you know, his faith is rewarded by one of those beggars being his father. And I love the scene, the way he's like, yeah, they like fight together without knowing that they're
[01:01:59] like father and son. And then also the way that uh Damon kind of like escorts You want to talk about Jason Bourne? That felt like Jason Bourne like the the Station thing from Bourne ultimatum where he's like guiding him through.
[01:02:14] >> Yeah, it was good. It was good. >> Yeah. So they get them home. There's like Tamicus is like, "Oh, throw a party tonight. Throw a big banquet. I'm back, "Get everyone's [ __ ] weapons out here. Get all your armor hidden away.
[01:02:27] Put it upstairs in a cupboard and lock that room cuz stuff's going to kick off tonight." And this is because he knows his dad is back because the dog that's been waiting, I'm going to tear up. The dog's been in a pile of [ __ ] waiting for
[01:02:40] its master to return. And he bends down and strokes it. Tail wags for the last time. And then it dies and it's held on there. I don't know why you held on because he just ditched you 20 years ago. But you you're bloody good dog. Oh,
[01:02:54] dogs are the best. >> Yeah, they are the moral of it. >> So, yeah, they they kind of have what I would describe as just getting you to hate the suitors as much as possible. And they have a moment where Adysius is
[01:03:07] going around begging and saying like, "I've got nove there's room in my bowl and like they're tipping the food out and then spitting in it and throwing a and then spitting in it and throwing a chair off his back and stuff." Like just
[01:03:19] insane. Just like God, you guys are [ __ ] monsters. Like [ __ ] [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, yeah. Penelopey gets the bow out and they're all like struggling to string it up. Antinuous doesn't even
[01:03:32] bother doing Oh, sorry. I forgot to mention that Odicius says that his lottery stick and it's kind of like where'd you get this from? It's like yeah [ __ ] you. I know you're a punk ass [ __ ] That's what I know. So yeah, they
[01:03:45] have the the big moment and I just thought the way that he's the the whole and spot on >> where they have everyone laughing and kind of struggling to do it and then everyone's had a go and Antinuis won't
[01:03:59] even try and then Adius is like I haven't had a go. Everyone's like bursting out laughing and he [ __ ] it up and then Penelopey starts walking away and they do it where they integrate the score. So they have the strings, they
[01:04:12] have two beats and then he pulls the bow and that's like the third note and then shoots it and then even before the guy can say, "Oh god, that's Jason B." He's shot through the neck and he's dead and it all just kicks off.
[01:04:25] >> Yeah. Yeah. For real. Oh yeah. And it's it's just such a great It's such a the thing you've been waiting for this whole time and it fully delivers. You get all these these, you know, freaks get their just desserts.
[01:04:38] >> Yeah. The way >> Rambo again Rambo 4 bit again when he gets on the 50 cal and he just starts [ __ ] wasting people. >> Yeah. >> A massive Rambo four fan.
[01:04:50] >> I was like, "Yeah, man. You're a big fan of that movie." No, no, no. It's it's great. I love I love when he he gives he gives Robert Patson back his shame, kind of parading around and like refusing to acknowledge this whole time
[01:05:04] and and own. He's just like, "Yeah, well, if you're not going to take it, I'm going to give it to you." And and plunges the dagger. It's so good. was hooking up with Mia Goth as well. Where what happened to her? That was one
[01:05:18] locked out. She kind of runs about for a bit and then they just don't Did they >> No. Well, I think the the the assumption is that Penelopey leaves her in there so rest of the suitors. And I believe that character in the poem does get
[01:05:33] slaughtered with the suitors for for basically betraying Penelopey and >> But we don't actually see what happens to her. I'm assuming that arrows just found their way into her neck like similar,
[01:05:48] So, but we don't actually see >> but Yeah. But Tmicus during this has Green's character. I did like the way Leguisamo's character has been blind and he's constantly being like, "You're too
[01:06:02] loud. You're too [ __ ] loud." >> And then he hears him going to the cub really good payoff. Would never suspect they do something like that, but really, >> Yeah. And that just fell in really nicely. And having him being wanting to
[01:06:16] king. >> Yeah. way to do it. and just kind of get his ass handed to him. And I there were around and stab him, mate. He's he's he's on the ground over a table, right?"
[01:06:29] >> But worked really well. And we just have Matt Damon just tearing [ __ ] up. Thunder in the background. The score going wild. So loud. Incredible. Loved it. >> No, for real. I and I do love how the score echoes the same piece of music
[01:06:44] that that is played during the the the Trojan horse sequence, but it's like now it's like within Odysius's own home and it's like him actually like fighting the the thing that he has brought to, you know, his own city to to Troy and
[01:06:58] reversed. It's like him him trying to like clean up the mess that that he's made a little bit. But yeah, I I think the the great thing about Tmicus is just like in the sense of of it being like this coming of age story,
[01:07:13] like, "Well, you're just doing all these. You you like you want to like and everything, but you don't actually know why you want to do it. You don't doing it for the right reasons. You're just doing it because you think it's
[01:07:26] what you should be doing. It's the noble thing you should be doing." And then throughout the film he comes to understand the what what is required of leadership the cost of leadership and then upon meeting his father he it
[01:07:40] finally all comes together and then he's only able to become the king after he you know has his convictions tested. Uh, and I and I thought that was a really really beautiful way of just like um of of testing him as a person and and doing
[01:07:55] you know, so intrinsic to that character's arc in the in the poem. >> Yeah, definitely. We've missed out so much, but even now I'm looking at this, video and we're like seven minutes into
[01:08:08] >> But yeah, just the speech they have at the window I think is the sliding door, sorry, I think is so good and it kind of does the Athena reveal there as well. It's talking about how much time's passed and if it would even be possible
[01:08:20] for Adysius to return. And I think a lot of this movie is about letting go of the trying to make the most of what you have of the feeling that I get when they end things and they decide to sail off into
[01:08:33] things and they decide to sail off into the sunset and go off together having finally seen gone through this massive journey to see what really matters. And I love the way that home for Adius had been trying to get home this entire
[01:08:47] time, but it wasn't about getting home. It was getting back to what his home is, which is Penelope >> and sailing off together. And she is his home. And wherever he goes and she goes, that's their home together.
[01:09:00] And they kind of decide to do that instead of just, you know, grieving the missed out on. It's more kind of optimistic and sailing towards that sun
[01:09:13] and trying to make the most of it. >> Right. There there is this there's this idea there's this like crossgenerational handoff if you will where it's like the world the the world has been mucked up and it's like it has changed because of
[01:09:25] and it's like it has changed because of the actions of the older generation and traditionally what we've seen is like the handing off of generations results in the future generations having to clean up the mess of the older ones. And
[01:09:37] what Nolan's trying to say at the end of this is like just as you would if you were a guest in someone else's home, clean up your your mess on the way out clean up your your mess on the way out and leave the the the world in a you
[01:09:49] know manageable situation so that the future generation could actually like figure their way out, fix the problems, make things a better place. Nolan is smart enough to recognize that there's a cyclical pattern here that we're just
[01:10:01] kind of we can't quite shake. But there is like a little like silver lining of optimism in in there which is that you know the things we leave behind are the lessons and the stories that we impart onto our children and in these future
[01:10:14] generations and if they're listening if they're receptive to it they'll be able to interpret them in ways that will make their lives better. And which is what we see with Tmicus and everything. It's like he learned the lessons of his
[01:10:27] father and is able and is going to then go forward and hopefully make good on on like all of that. He'll he'll be a better version of what his father tried to be. And Odysius and Penelopey are able to exit, you know, their their
[01:10:42] spotlight here and just kind of like do their own thing now, but not before, you know, cleaning up their mess and making rights, which is which is the key there. You can't just like leave things, you know, just be like, "Whatever, we're out
[01:10:56] of here." No, you you got to Yeah. You got to make things right before you you move on. Yeah, definitely. And there was there's like a split-second shot. Well, not a split second, but it doesn't end on that shot. It ends with Matt D. I
[01:11:10] think it ends on this, but it's like right near the end. Him back in Troy on the ground staring up at the Trojan horse kind of on its side on fire. feelings on it. >> Yeah. I mean to me because I think the
[01:11:25] line that accompanies it is like something to the effect of like Matt Damon saying like it'll be like per like perhaps time will like forget about all horse burning and it's a reminder that it's like well we don't well it's like
[01:11:39] yes we we do forget all about all about it but we forget the truth of it. We remember the myth of it and thus we kind of are doomed to repeat the same cycles. So there is this like melancholic kind of ending where it's like Nolan has this
[01:11:52] >> here's the hopeful thing that we should really like try to do. Here's the of the nature of that that final ending uh that final shot of the Trojan horse. >> Yeah. I think it's just for me it's kind of almost like Oppenheimer where that
[01:12:07] ends with him thinking about how the atomic bomb has kind of set off all lead to the world being destroyed potentially down the line. And by breaking Zeus's law and people not treating each other like how they want
[01:12:22] to be treated, it's led to this massive thing that's kind of ruined so many people's lives. And it's kind of almost a warning of the whole thing of like, look, Adysius could have skipped out on a lot of this and been back home and
[01:12:34] been grand had he not necessarily broken this law. >> Yeah. >> But it's one of those shots that's open to interpretation. And I do really like your take on it too and kind of how he's
[01:12:46] like the stuff will be forgotten. It's like mate with 3,000 years still making Exactly. No. >> Yeah. Yeah. But thank you so much for for so much longer now. >> No, no. This is great. I've wanted to
[01:13:01] talk about this movie uh ever since I saw it and we finally got a nice right? You know, it's great. >> Yeah. I've just realized I haven't pressed record, but no, thanks for joining me and yeah, really appreciate
[01:13:14] it, mate. If you want to check out Griffin as well, go to film speak. It's thoughts in the comments. I'm sure there's lots of stuff to talk about. I'm going on Twitter every couple of hours and [ __ ] hell, what a hell site it
[01:13:27] going to check it now and see what everyone's saying to leave your comments >> Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me. me. Take care, mate.