---
title: 'Everyone Was Wrong About the Haranir Reveal...'
source: 'https://youtube.com/watch?v=Pc9flwgEZMU'
video_id: 'Pc9flwgEZMU'
date: 2026-08-18
duration_sec: 1678
channel: 'Taliesin & Evitel'
---

# Everyone Was Wrong About the Haranir Reveal...

> Source: [Everyone Was Wrong About the Haranir Reveal...](https://youtube.com/watch?v=Pc9flwgEZMU)

## Summary

This video analyzes the new story questline 'Legacy of the Armani' in World of Warcraft, which reveals a shared ancestry between elves, trolls, and the Haranir. The host dissects the cinematic's implications, community reactions, and Blizzard's clarification, ultimately arguing that the Haranir are not the progenitors of all races but rather a splinter group from the Amani or dark trolls.

### Key Points

- **Questline Launch and Spoilers** [00:20] — The 'Legacy of the Armani' questline launched as a lead-in to patch 12.1, but its story was already spoiled twice by Blizzard since 12.0.7, including in the 12.1 reveal stream and the 'Bitter Truth' audio dramas.
- **Community Reactions and World-Building** [02:11] — The host praises the questline for showing lingering tensions between elves and trolls, Talanji's return, and the early reveals of Uulatek and Kith'ix. He also appreciates Zul'jin's characterization and the funeral rites for Kinduru.
- **The Cinematic Revelation** [05:10] — Hadar reveals that elves, trolls, and Haranir are all descendants of one lineage, shocking the gathered crowd. This is the central point of contention, as it implies a common ancestor.
- **Is the Elf-Troll Connection News?** [06:17] — The host questions whether the revelation is actually new, noting that the connection was hinted at in-game since patch 1.11 (2006) with the 'Twin Empires' book and the 'Troll Compendium' feature, which described it as a theory.
- **Evidence from Brann and the Magazine** [10:18] — The host debunks claims that Brann Bronzebeard confirmed the connection in-game, noting the Halls of Stone sequence doesn't mention it. He acknowledges the World of Warcraft Official Magazine issue 5 does state it, but questions its canonicity.
- **In-Game Evidence: Lorewalker Cho and Nighthold** [12:23] — The Family History quest with Lorewalker Cho doesn't show troll ancestry for blood elves. The 'Trolling Them' quest in Nighthold features mocking items, but the host argues this is likely referencing legends, not confirmed fact.
- **The Haranir Contention** [14:02] — The real issue is the Haranir's place in the timeline. The host outlines two interpretations: they are a dark troll offshoot (acceptable) or the super-special original progenitors (bad). He argues the cinematic visuals seem to imply the latter, but he disagrees.
- **Evidence Against the Progenitor Theory** [18:22] — The host presents evidence that the Haranir are not the original race: Hadar's words suggest a common ancestor, the Echoes and Memories questline shows them fighting nerubians (which evolved later), and Zul'jin confirms knowledge of dark trolls.
- **Blizzard's Clarification** [24:55] — Keith Riley, senior quest designer, clarified that the cinematic is an in-world Haranir presentation, not Blizzard's absolute truth. The Haranir believe they are the original race, but the vision may be inaccurate.
- **Conclusion: The Haranir's True Origin** [26:59] — The host concludes that the Haranir likely came from the Amani who settled in Hyjal, splitting into Haranir and dark trolls, or they were the dark trolls themselves. This aligns with what players always assumed.

### Conclusion

The video concludes that the Haranir are not the progenitors of trolls and elves, but rather a splinter group from the Amani or dark trolls, as supported by in-game evidence and Blizzard's clarification. The cinematic's visuals were misleading, but the story remains consistent with established lore.

## Transcript

>> Hello internet, Taliesin here and welcome to another episode of the weekly reset. Taliesin [music] and Everteel's wondrous wisdom show and actually a very special episode where we will be talking about one thing and one thing only, the
new story quests that launched this week as part of the lead in to 12.1 and what it reveals about the Harriers and their relationship to the trolls and the elves and indeed the timeline of the Warcraft universe because everyone has
an opinion on what was revealed in this questline and cinematic, which is good, but there are a lot of various details and law nuggets and interpretations and occasional misunderstandings and also some Blizzard clarification
and also some Blizzard clarification which has happened since that we need to go through if we're going to actually work out what on earth is going on here. It's the kind of investigation and analysis and dissection that I love
doing and yes, it's going to be our entire episode. So, Everteel was going to talk to you about new housing stuff like the very strange lost curio gameplay mode and the new artisanal runes with pre-built windows and
skylights and pools. Those were so cool, but I'm sorry, all of that is going to have to wait because actually everyone is wrong about the Harrier reveal, but everyone is wrong about different bits. So, cursive Ulatek chapter one, Legacy
of the Armani launched this week, a questline and the story that had already been spoiled twice by Blizzard since patch 12.0.7 released. First in the 12.1 reveal stream and more recently in the bitter truth short audio dramas, all
three parts of which weirdly went live within a few hours of each other on the same day. Huh, another very good reason, if you needed any, why this questline should have dropped with the launch of patch 12.0.7 in the first place. But if
you thought those story spoilers were going to rob Legacy of the Armani of its impact in the community, well, you would have been very, very wrong. First, cuz I compliment, [music] some stuff that I really liked about
this quest line. I love the gathering of the elves in Harundal. After the whole Darkwell story line, there was much debate in the community as to whether what happened there was a rushed and empty reunification of the elves with
unearned hugs and rainbows powered by the magic of friendship, or whether it was a little bit more nuanced than that. A temporary alliance of separate, often antagonistic, factions to deal with a very immediate threat. [music] But, at
the beginning of this quest line, it's clear they are not all friends, and clear they are not all friends, and there are still very real tensions and resentments still at play. And, I think that's good. I move that we stop calling
whatever happened at the Darkwell the reunification of the elves, cuz it never felt like the right description anyway, and it feels even more wrong now. I love that there was so much outright hatred between the various elves and the trolls
that are here, too. I love that Talanji has returned, and how much she just absolutely serves. She can't even help it. And, I love how after the big revelation from the Har'onnaire in this cinematic, basically no one cares and
still hates each other, and mostly just a little bit annoyed with the Har'onnaire for dragging them down here for no reason. This is all good stuff. This is fun world building. I liked [music] how we got very early reveals of
both Uulatek, the final boss of 12.1's Venomous Abyss raid, and Kith'ix, who looks certain to be who we're going to fight in 12.1.5's mini raid. I like because he's awesome. [music] And, I think Zul'jan's voice actor was knocking
it out of the park this entire quest line. You all know I'm not a fan of the been set on, [music] but my distaste for the arc itself aside, I think the arc is being done really well. I understand [music] Zul'jin's motivations and how
frustrating it must be that basically all the other Amani disagree with him on the best way to protect their people and lands. I thought Malacrass's gentle nudging of him throughout the quests was great, and I liked how the questline
ended with us performing funeral rites for Kinduru, an [music] echo of the leveling quests where we performed the same rites for the Amani soldiers that died when Zul'jin ordered an attack on the Twilight's Blade. Because it's
important to remember this, isn't it? The problem with Zul'jin is not that he cares about his people, not that he wants to protect them, all the Amani want that, but because his methods do tend to regularly kill quite a lot of
Amani, a constant loss of life that he seems either completely unmoved or oblivious to, so single-minded is he on the ends he is trying to achieve. So, questline. [music] Because no one's talking about any of
that, the real headlines are in that cinematic where Hadar revealed to the cinematic where Hadar revealed to the gathered trolls and elves their ancestry that all three of their races share. >> Generations upon generations ago, we
Aranasi stopped the forest of the world above. above. Until we heard the call of our goddess. Seeking her will, some left the forest behind, vanishing deep within the sacred
hollows of the world. But many Aranasi remained above, and over time, they changed, splintering apart as millennia passed,
splintering apart as millennia passed, giving rise to mighty empires and terrible wars fought by those who had forgotten they fought by those who had forgotten they had ever been one people at all.
had ever been one people at all. Elves, trolls, and Harania. We are all the descendants of one lineage. lineage. We are in essence one people.
>> Many talking points, and frustrations, and questions to pick out on this one. But, let's start small with a relatively unimportant point before the main event. unimportant point before the main event. Is this actually news? Am I going mad?
always known, right? What's the big revelation? Gathers everyone together, tells them something everyone knows. You can clap now. Lol, the Harania really have been underground a long time. Yeah, we know, Hadar. Me when I replace all
the writers with AI and need to sell old lore like it's new. I know this isn't what everyone's really upset about. But, I do think it's an interesting question. How aware are the inhabitants of Azeroth supposed to be about the fact that elves
and trolls are related? We, the player, know cuz it says so in Chronicle. But, pretty much everyone gathered here seems incredibly surprised apart from Talanji cuz she's got like a library or whatever. Is that surprise a believable
known? I think it might be worth having bit of lore to try and make sense of it. As far as I can tell, the very first mention of elves being descended from trolls comes in patch 1.11,
Shadows of the Necropolis, released on June the 20th, 2006. The Naxxramas raid and Scourge events. In that patch, a number of books appeared in Gadgetzan, number of books appeared in Gadgetzan, including one called The Twin Empires,
author unknown. It reads, "Around 16,000 years ago, long before the night elves foolishly called down the wrath of the Burning Legion, there were twin troll empires, the Gurubashi and the Amani. At the time, [music] their greatest common
enemy was a third empire, the civilization of Azj'Aqir. The trolls and there is a reason I'm reading this bit, I promise. Maybe try and remember [clears throat] driven into exile, the twin troll
empires returned to business as usual. However, the ancient texts speak of a small faction of trolls that broke off from the Amani empire and founded their own colony on the dark continent. There, these brave pioneers discovered the
cosmic well of eternity, which transformed them into beings of immense power. Some legends suggest that these adventurous trolls were the first night elves, although this theory has never been proven. Now, this is all especially
fun, because it's also literally what this 12.0.7 story is about, and 12.1 for that matter. That vision or wayner shows Zul'jan of the Amani fighting the Aqiri and summoning Ultek to defeat Kith'ix.
That's literally what the Twin Empires book is describing, and what is described in Chronicle volume 1, chapter 3. The book describes the idea of night elves evolving from the Amani as legend. So, as this book describes it, it's
definitely something that people on Azeroth may have heard of, but in the minotaur, or Icarus, or King Arthur. Also, in that same patch, a quest was [music] added to Alterac Valley for
Alliance players. In the since removed Staghelm's Requiem, after Aman'thul orders, all trolls on the field of battle must be exterminated. Their preposterous claims of birthing night elves must be met with force and due
prejudice. Then, a couple of weeks after that patch went live on July the 3rd, 2006, the worldofwarcraft.com ran a feature called The Troll Compendium, which had a section called
this, "Little is known about the night elves' precise origins, for their race was formed so long ago that no hard evidence has surfaced to prove or invalidate this theory. All that is
known for certain is that a tribe of nocturnal humanoids came to live on the shores of the first well of eternity and that the well's cosmic energies changed them into the night elves we know today. Certainly, many trolls do believe that
night elf race were trolls. Nevertheless, many night elves find this theory preposterous and abhorrent. point in debating the merits of this controversial theory. No doubt it will
remain a matter of contention for years to come. Oh, how little you knew. So again, a thing that some people believe but which there is no real evidence for, like chemtrails or Atlantis. Our next witness is Brann Bronzebeard. I've heard
the troll and elf connection in the Halls of Stone dungeon where he talks to the Tribunal of the Ages. That's not true from what we see in the game. All becoming dwarves and there is not a single mention of trolls or elves in the
entire entire interminable sequence, which yes, I did go and sit through again just to make sure. [ __ ] you. Lots of people will also point to the fact that Brann supposedly confirmed that night elves evolved from trolls from
Freya and Cenarius. So it's literally total fact and the whole world should I'm not here to argue about this, okay? But when you look at the evidence [music] in question, it's a drawing in issue five of the World of Warcraft
official magazine from 2011 just before Cataclysm came out. And the magazine is never really usually about story or lore and instead focuses on dev interviews, gameplay guides and stuff like that. But there's a couple of pages in [music]
this particular issue dedicated to Brann's notes where he says that the Chad dark trolls were progenitors to the virgin night elves and above his illustration of the virgin night elf, he scribbled tribe I'm not doing the voice.
Tribunal of the Ages, Freya, Cenarius, all of them confirm. This will ruffle some feathers for sure. And okay, one, I don't like that Malfurion disrespect with the jab on ruffling feathers, okay? But two,
I mean, yes, it does say that. In issue number five, the final issue of the World of Warcraft official magazine, it definitely does. I'm not denying that for sure, but I kind of think that if it also said Taliessin is the best WoW
pretty sure you'd all be tripping over yourselves to explain to me how it's not exactly Chronicle in terms of canon, is it? The World of Warcraft magazine. But it definitely does say it, yes. Bran apparently just called up Cenarius and
about the trolls and night elves. Please confirm." And they were like, "Yeah, happened." That groundbreaking [music] news clearly never made it as far as Pandaria, because when blood elf players take part in the Horde-only Family
History quest with Lorewalker Cho, the altar shows them their race's history, and it shows blood elves with night elves in the background representing their ancestry with them. But it doesn't go back any further. It doesn't show us
any trolls, which leaves us with just the best and most cited evidence for the [music] in Azeroth, the Trolling Them quest in Nighthold raid in Legion, where players run around disposing of offensive items
that the blood elves have left in the night elf camp. Well, hang on. Blood elves and night elves working together. Is this some sort of reunification of the elves, including a troll mask with the flavor text "Just wanted you to feel
at home, mon"? And a troll figurine with the flavor text "Your ancestors." So yes, some of these blood elves are definitely [music] mocking the night trolls, and also mocking themselves by extension. But jokes aren't funny when
think about that. Maybe this proves they all know for a fact that it's definitely true, confirmed by Freya no less. Or maybe they're just aware of the legends. One of the night elf NPC reactions when you do this quest is, "I don't get it."
I think with all the evidence we've gone over, I'm willing to believe it's the latter, and that confirmation of this news with like a cool vision cinematic something of a revelation to those present. Like if they discovered the
real Atlantis, it would be huge, shocking news to everyone, even though know. So that's all quite interesting, and some of it may even be foreshadowing. But of course, the real contention, the reason this video
exists, lies in the other people suddenly joining this family tree, the Har'onnaire. And when I say contention, the Har'onnaire are pretty much the Zov Val to troll and elf lore now. Ouch. Hey, you like my OC race? It's actually
no one cares about your new little guys, so you have to make them the extra everything. Now of course, from the second the Har'onnaire appeared in this game, their connection to the trolls and
by extension the night elves was pretty clear. Many in the community originally referred to them as the missing link troll elves because of the way that they seem to embody physical traits of both races. So the fact that the Har'onnaire
are part of that evolutionary process isn't shocking or new, and actually I think most players were pretty on side with one particular version of the Har'onnaire placed specifically here in the timeline, where the trolls
are already firmly established on Azeroth, the dark trolls are just starting to settle near the Well of Eternity when some of those dark trolls splinter off and go and follow the Radiant Song underground and become the
Har'onnaire. While the dark trolls that remained were transformed by the arcane well into the night elves. See, that's cool. It doesn't retcon any existing lore, and it's the part of the link that the Har'onnaire look like they should
be. The problem for most people is option two. If the harbingers are positioned as the uber magic super special mega important progenitor of all things race further back in the timeline. Like in the beginning there
were harbingers and then everything else came from that. To be clear there's always been a suggestion that trolls evolved from something. They didn't pop out fully formed like well humans and trolls did. Noble correctly pointed out
kicking off that in Shadows of the Horde in 2013 the ghost of Vol'jin's dad says, "It be certain I'm not doing the voice. It be certain we were something before we became trolls and likely going to be something after." So it's not like the
harbingers coming first would cheat the trolls out of some secret position as the original anything. But this version would feel a bit crowbarred in, a bit forced, totally unnecessary and more importantly not actually anywhere near
as interesting as what players had assumed. So now the big question is which of these two scenarios is it? Dark troll offshoot or super special OGs?
Let's look first for the evidence of the bad option for harbingers as the super special OGs. The situation that everyone would be upset about and generally hate myself included by the way as presented in the cinematic vision. These visuals
absolutely do seem to be implying that in my [music] opinion. There were ones that were left didn't just become the original trolls. Some became trolls and some these fellows on the left here just flat out became night elves
completely [music] erasing the dark trolls from history as ancestors of the elves as well. In my opinion if you were just watching the way the cinematic shows us this story it is completely reasonable that you would come to that
conclusion. I think that's what these visuals are showing us and that's bad. completely fair that people are disappointed that Blizz is going with this pointless retcon just to position their new special race at the center of
with this pointless retcon just to position their new special race at the And this being where Blizz is going with the story is the reason the reaction to it has been so strong and so hostile. And fair enough, honestly. I think it
absolutely sucks, too. However, I don't actually think that is the story being told here. I don't think Blizz is saying that the Haronnir are the true OG progenitors of the trolls [music] and night elves. And actually, I
think the initial assumed dark troll version of history is far more accurate. Basically, what I'm saying is everyone is wrong about this except me. And I
thinking, "Blizzard does some stupid [ __ ] again. Tally, you don't understand." And okay, but I promise I'm not being contrarian here. Allow me to present you all the evidence against the Haronnir are the progenitors of everyone
else interpretation, [music] which is literally everything else in the game. Starting with this very same cinematic where the vision ends with Hadar saying, where the vision ends with Hadar saying, >> Elves, trolls, and Haronnir.
We are all the descendants [music] of one lineage. one lineage. We are, in essence, one people. >> one lineage. A line which doesn't suggest trolls and elves came from
Haronnir as we know them, but that all three share a common ancestor distinct from all three, which by the way fits the dark troll interpretation. And it's watching the cinematic for the first time, even if the visuals definitely do
different. And I agree they do, but those visuals are pretty vague and open to interpretation. In fact, Alleria herself says that details in these visions may be missing or inaccurate. And in situations where one thing
always more inclined to believe the actual words being said in a cinematic rather than a vague visual. A lot of people do not agree with me on this take, which is fair. But even if the only evidence I had was this cinematic,
I would still be making the argument that the visuals are bad and confusing and have made people miss the actual headline here. The trolls and harnea and headline here. The trolls and harnea and night elves share a lineage, a common
ancestor. Hadar calls them harnea because to her, they are. But a troll might refer to that common ancestor as a troll. And night elves might even call completely wrong of course, but as we've seen, they get a little bit touchy about
this [ __ ] This very questline also confirms that the dark trolls aren't being written out of the story. Zul'jin speaking of the Zandalari's incredible historical records says, "Of course we knew about the dark trolls." Which
conflict between the revelation she's just heard and the dark trolls being that's the argument I'd be making if there was no other evidence beyond this cinematic. As it happens, there's quite important other evidence, too. Exhibit
one, the Echoes and Memories questline in Harandor, where we relive the story of the harnea leaving Hyjal to head underground. And we are explicitly shown that they were living around Mount Hyjal at the time, like the dark trolls were
supposed to be. And on their way down into the earth, they are shown fighting nerubians. And this is really important, okay? Because not aqir, not Kith'ix's bug people, nerubians, who didn't evolve until after the Amani fought Kith'ix in
the wars described in the Twin Empires book. See foreshadowing. Writing is my passion. That means this memory that will when you shows will Jan of the Amani summoning Ulatek to defeat Kith'ix and the Akeer. The events it portrays
and the Akeer. The events it portrays happened before the Har'innir had even split off and headed underground. So no [ __ ] it forms part of their memories cuz the Har'innir as we know them aren't progenitors of the Amani. The Amani are
in fact the ancestors of the Har'innir. This by the way also fits with the dark trolls evolving from the Amani according to Twin Empires. So to be clear, original Har'innir as we recognize them were either Amani, some of whom went
some of whom stayed on the surface and became dark trolls and eventually night elves. Or the Har'innir flat out were the dark trolls like it says in the text that starts this quest line. When the Har'innir began to grow restless, they
looked to new sources of purpose. Some cast their gazes upwards towards the [clears throat] such as the Harati heard a call from deep within the world. There is admittedly nowhere near as compelling and that's Liadrin's history of the
Har'innir in the Midnight art book where she describes them like this. Long ago after the dark trolls settled the Well of Eternity and became the night elves, those who would eventually become the Har'innir split from them and journeyed
deep below the ground which is crazy obviously because it is actually saying that the Har'innir evolved directly from night elves which makes less sense than anything we've heard so far. And like where did Liadrin get this information
from? She's never been to Harandor at this point so it's not first hand accounts. I wouldn't say this is brown in the Warcraft magazine levels of art book that came with the expansion [music] and it came out this year rather
than 2011 but still I think it's it's easy to assume Liadrin might be getting her wires crossed a bit here. I definitely don't think a blood elf heard of 5 minutes ago and has had no meaningful contact with is an
making sense of an evolutionary timeline that no one can agree on, but it is worth mentioning. So, with all that in mind, I'm going to say that based on nothing other than what the game tells me, the side of this debate that I
personally land on is that yes, the visuals in this cinematic are confusing made lots of people assume something about the story being told that isn't true. And everything else in the game,
including spoken lines in the same cinematic, would suggest that in fact the original Highborne either were the Amani trolls who split off and settled in Hijal before again splitting into the underground Highborne and the ones who
stayed on the surface and became the dark trolls, or the Highborne flat out were the dark trolls, some of whom split off and went underground and became the modern Highborne while others became night elves. Either one of those fits
with everything else we are told and shown in the game way more. This visual is literally the only thing contradicting that timeline, and honestly, I can only imagine the lore people in the writing room when they
animations of this sequence putting up their hand to point out that it was potentially very confusing and wrong, only to have everyone be like, "Nah, we don't think that's a problem." Cuz I've been in meeting rooms like that before,
and I bet you have too. And that's where this script originally finished. Maybe you agree with me, maybe you don't. Either way is fine. I've hopefully given you a pretty comprehensive rundown of the important evidence with regards to
evolutionary timeline of the trolls and night elves, but of course you need to make up your own mind. Just don't be a dick to people who disagree with you, okay? And that's where I was going to finish, but as I was writing
this piece, we did actually get clarification from Blizzard devs. And yeah, actually I'm completely right, and if you did disagree with me, then you're and delete that rude comment you left halfway through watching. Please don't
actually one of my favorite things. From Keith Riley, senior quest designer on Wow, the cinematic is an in-world Haronnir presentation from the Haronnir point of view via a Haronnir vision. It is not Blizzard's presentation on the
absolute truth of Haronnir elf troll genealogy. Oh, geneal- I should have Ol' Whitemane says that Haronnir visions may contain missing or inaccurate cannot [music] lie. So, the Haronnir believe the general idea of the vision
is truth, that there were ancient Haronnir who stayed on the surface, and [music] That's the basis for their "We are one people" statement to the attendees. Based on the vision, the Haronnir
believe the elves and trolls descend directly from ancient Haronnir. But, as mentioned earlier, Ol' Whitemane says details [music] in visions may be missing or inaccurate. So, I think with this clarification in mind,
>> yes, it's completely fair to say that, even if, based on the vision, the Haronnir believe they are the original race that spawned [music] the trolls and necessarily mean they are, because they are the Haronnir, an in-game mortal
race, and not Blizzard. [music] I think the masses of contradicting evidence in the game isn't a mistake, it's not [music] suddenly retconned by this vision. It's all stuff that should be used to inform our interpretation of
this vision. Because actually, in our positions of players of the game, we know stuff about this that the Haronnir don't. So, I think I am on safe ground here when I say that no, the Haronnir didn't evolve into trolls, or if they
basically unrecognizable as the Haronnir that see today, which trolls and modern harani both evolved from separately. To repeat my own personal thinking based on what we have, the harani as we know them
came either from the amani who settled in Hyjal splitting into harani and dark trolls, or the dark trolls who came from the amani who settled in Hyjal splitting and heading underground. In other words, what everyone always assumed they were
anyway. And this entire 16-page discussion was completely pointless. Did I mention there's some really cool housing stuff on the PTR? But what do you think? What is the story being told here? What is the actual position of the
harani in the story of Azeroth [music] and the genealogy of the trolls and night elves? Like I said, this is essentially a matter of interpretation, interpretation [music] in the comments below. Thanks for
video, don't thank us. Thank our patrons who give their actual real life money to make all of our work [music] happen. If you didn't like it, downvote the [ __ ] out of it. Remember, my name is Keith Riley.
No, I'm Taliesin. From me [music] and Evitel. Until next time. Cheerio.