---
title: 'WoW Forever FINALLY Nailed Classic Dungeon Design'
source: 'https://youtube.com/watch?v=vB1teZfyM5I'
video_id: 'vB1teZfyM5I'
date: 2026-09-30
duration_sec: 1292
channel: 'Xaryu'
---

# WoW Forever FINALLY Nailed Classic Dungeon Design

> Source: [WoW Forever FINALLY Nailed Classic Dungeon Design](https://youtube.com/watch?v=vB1teZfyM5I)

## Summary

The video reviews the new dungeons in WoW Classic, specifically Ironforge and Undercity, comparing them to original dungeons like Ragefire Chasm and Deadmines. The creator shares initial impressions, discusses design philosophy, and highlights new loot and set bonuses.

### Key Points

- **Initial Disappointment with Ironforge** [00:40] — The creator was initially disappointed with Ironforge due to wrong expectations, but later understood it as an RFC equivalent.
- **Ironforge vs. Undercity Design** [02:04] — Ironforge is linear and beginner-friendly, while Undercity is more open-ended, offering different experiences.
- **Ironforge as RFC Improvement** [02:40] — Ironforge is a massive improvement over Ragefire Chasm, with more story, depth, and atmosphere.
- **Criticism of Ragefire Chasm** [03:07] — Ragefire Chasm is criticized as a simple corridor with enemies, lacking depth.
- **Dungeon Once Philosophy** [05:40] — Blizzard's philosophy is to do each dungeon once on your leveling journey, with reruns only for specific items.
- **New Set Bonuses** [06:30] — New set bonuses, like the Wailing Caverns snake form for druids, add fun and horizontal progression.
- **Snake Form vs. Transmog** [07:55] — The creator prefers the snake form over transmog because it changes your character with actual items, feeling more classic.
- **Tank Braces in Deadmines** [08:36] — Tank braces with a thorns effect in Deadmines are great for early tanks.
- **Boss Identification Issue** [10:04] — A criticism is that bosses are often mingled with trash, making them hard to identify.
- **Lessons from 20 Years of Design** [14:08] — The new dungeons incorporate lessons learned over 20 years, with better enemy placement and smoother flow.
- **Go in Blind** [20:56] — The creator encourages players to go into new dungeons blind to enhance the sense of discovery.

### Conclusion

Blizzard's new dungeons in Ironforge and Undercity represent a thoughtful evolution of classic design, offering both linear and open-ended experiences that improve upon the originals while preserving their spirit.

## Transcript

Blizzard finally figured out classic dungeon design. Bro, if you guys haven't done the new dungeon in Ironforge, the new dungeon in Undercity, oh my gosh, you're in for a treat. It is awesome. They're great. Let's take a look.
How dungeons work, I talked about it a little bit in another video, but now I've done all the new dungeons, the Ironforge and of course the Undercity dungeons, and I've done more of the original classic dungeons, I think it's well worth a discussion on how these are going and how the future looks.
I describe the university as my favorite thing I've done in WoW Forever so far, and that's amongst a whole bunch of brilliant things. So you can imagine how excited I was to go to Ironforge.
It was a little disappointing, but because I went in with the wrong mindset. So let's talk about that for a start. Were you disappointed? I went to the Ironforge. Bro, my... I mean, I'll hear him out. But bro, when I first went in here, I was like blown away.
Old Ironforge. You know, like, you could fear and hack yourself through the map back in the day with, like, Polymorph or fear and get through the wall and check it out. It was the coolest thing ever. Like, the fact that I actually did something and it looked like BRD inside,
like a little mini version, a little microcosm of what's to come. It's like, oh, I just loved it. So let's see what he says. I was obviously filled with the excitement of going in blind
and figuring things out and searching for things, and that is not the case. And I was like, oh, okay, this isn't like what we did in Yonder City, where there were lots of mysteries and things that we didn't know about because we went in fully blind, so we had no idea of finding the extra bosses that are lurking in there, little areas, trying things out because we thought there, and I've been told there is another boss in there, like how do we trigger it, what do we do, do we light this fire, do we go near this statue that's glowing, do we do this thing with gargoyles, all these areas that we explored and did stuff with,
which took us like an hour and a half, and it was great. Ironforge is far more linear. That's a fair critique, I suppose. Like, I did Ironforge first, and then Ruins of Lordaeron. So when I went into Hall of Things,
I was like, oh, this is dope. And then I went to Ruins of Lordaeron, and it's a lot more... open? Right? Choose your own path. Maybe you do some... These bosses or those bosses, or just some of them,
and like, that's cool too. But man, did I like Hall of Things. In fact, I don't think you can go wrong inside that. at all, and then I was like, ah, hmm. But then someone pointed something out to me
which then made perfect sense. The Ironforge is an RFC equivalent, a Ragefire Chasm equivalent. The Undercity is more like Deadmines, and I was like, oh, actually, this makes total sense.
And in fact, if I look at it through that lens, this is a massive improvement over Ragefire Chasm. A massive improvement. It's got a bit of story, it's got more depth, it's got more atmosphere. The Ironforged Dungeon is a lot like BRD in many ways.
It can be very, very familiar with huge, giant chasms where the dwarves have been digging, leaving these big bridges. You were expecting the Balrog to rock up at some point. It gave a much grander scale. Ragefire Chasm sucks.
I know there are people out there who love it, but Ragefire Chasm is just the absolute worst. It's so bad. It's just a corridor with enemies in it. but that's kind of like in a sense
what I don't mind or even like about like classic WoW or early game is that it doesn't make you feel like oh I'm level 14 let me go kill
a crazy world ending dragon boss dude with like 15 heads that's like gonna kill the world unless I stand in place and like I have to do all this crazy stuff it's like you know you're gonna go kill some troggs bro
yeah that's it you're going to go kill some shrugs. Like, I think that's cool. That's awesome. That's how it should be. You're level 14, bro. Yo, right? It's the most basic design ever, but it's supposed to be.
It's Babi's first dungeon. If you've never played World of Warcraft or even an MMO before, which is how Blizzard approaches these things, certainly back in 2004, they didn't want you really, like, lost and stuck.
They wanted a feeling of scale, which they do with the giant ragefire chasm itself. It's very large. It's got lava pits. It's got a giant monster in the middle of it. All very basic, tick-the-box things,
and a little bit of exploration and side paths where they give you a quest in order to show you that you could probably go up here and do something. The Ironforge takes the idea and magnifies it without getting too complicated.
You have to travel down a little side path. You come into a really grand opening before you even get into the dungeon where there's people studying it. Then you go inside where you're going to be dealing with ghosts. You're going to deal with some very creepy areas. The music could use a little bit of work.
It is surprising that there is music for While Forever already in the beta. Usually the music comes at launch at best, so maybe more tracks will be coming, but the music felt not quite on par with the eeriness and the spookiness
of what they put together in the Undercity. I would almost need to re-listen to the music because I didn't pick that up, but my music might have been a little too low. When we were exploring River Glaze, I turned my music all the way up,
and it was like amazing but I should have turned my music up when I was in Hall of Fame it's good they were trying right there was some good atmosphere and stuff going on let talk about the old dungeons a little bit and then we do our comparison The old dungeons for me there nothing to be surprised by here From everything I
done so far, they kind of just left them alone, and added a couple of quests in, on occasion, to give you a little bit more of a bonus, because again, Blizzard's philosophy here is, you should probably do
a dungeon once. That's it. On your leveling journey. If you want certain items, sure, you can rerun them, but they're not going to give you much XP. You're really there just for the items, which is
good enough, because the items are really nice to get from there. But, generally speaking, you're going to spend a good amount of time collecting all the quests. The Deadmines itself have got another big quest chain that they've added in in Forever that you want to go and do.
And then you're going to go in with your team, and you're all going to complete the quest. You're going to get some items, and then you're going to get a massive payoff afterwards. Sweet, in terms of experience and guaranteed rewards from the quests themselves.
So, thumbs up, no problem with that. If you want to go back, it's because you really, really want some item that may or may not drop, or you want to get one of the new set bonuses because they're cool,
like this existing Wailing Caverns, where, you know, druids can get this of the fan set that will turn them into a snake. I don't know if you know about that, but it's very cool. So they've added a bunch more items and modified them. We found some really cool tank braces that have...
Wait, doesn't this thing have to proc, or is it perma-snake? New set bonuses because they're cool. Like this exists in Wailing Caverns, where, you know, druids... It's perma and cat? Of the fine set that will turn them into...
Oh, I think I misread it. I thought it was a proc that procs you into a snake, so you have the snake form temporarily. That is insane! Okay, I like this for two reasons.
One, it's just, like, creative and cool. It's obvious. Sick. But two, this also gives max levels, like something to farm to AFK in a city as a snake,
even if you're a level 60. Oh, let me go hit Wailing Caverns so I can get my five set so I can unlock this snake form because it's awesome. I love that kind of stuff. It doesn't really go out of date in the sense that
you want to keep these items around forever. It's not really horizontal progression in the sense that it's just how you look. It's not like stats or anything, but it looks cool. Um, I am under the opinion, and I don't know, this might be the minority opinion, that, like, this is, like, cooler than transmog to me.
Something that actually turns your character into something with actual items is, like, is so classic-like and so cool that this is, like, way cooler than transmog.
So, obviously, they did add transmog and a toggle, and that's fine. I'll just toggle it off. Completely fine with that. That's a fair decision. Probably the right decision, to be honest. But, like, I think this is even cooler.
Like, this is the kind of stuff I want to see. So classic-like. Awesome. The snake, I don't know if you know about that, but it's very cool. So they've added a bunch more items and modified them. We found some really cool tank braces that have a thorns effect on them inside the dead mines.
Very awesome for early tanks, especially if you're going to, like, go Deadmines and maybe then Shadowfang Keep or maybe something else, you know, if you're going to be doing a lot of dungeon tanking, like, really nice to get a nice spawns effect, possibly.
Really good. Excited about all this stuff. The issue is, they're new dungeons. Even Ironforge and Dungeon City are just, they're better, but I've
been struggling with, are they better because I haven't done them before, so I've had that excitement, and I haven't ran them a thousand times. Shadowfarm Keep, Wailing Cabin, Deadmines. Deadmines is my all-time favourite dungeon.
It really is. It's so good. It delivers this message in a way that I miss so much in retail. Blowing that door off with the cannon, everything being logical, right? It's like, how do we fire this cannon? We need gunpowder.
Well, it'll be probably in these stacks of barrels. There it is. And then you open it up into that enormous cavern that the ship's waiting for you. It's so good. The worky way up the ship, fighting through pirates and the defiers all the way up there. you've got the first mate protecting it, and then you get the occasional extra bee boss at the end, like Cookie,
which can give you a little bonus, and then you get this big showdown with Van Cleef at the end, with his guards being summoned to protect him. It's such a good storytelling dungeon. It really, really fits that message. As does The Under City.
Like, both of those work really well. But The Under City does it in a much more... In a bigger way, contrast to the Ironforge, which is treated as baby's first dungeon, like, you can't really go wrong, there aren't too many difficult mechanics,
since that's the only way the bosses did anything. So I would have one criticism of these older-style dungeons. Often the bosses are just mingled with trash, and it's kind of hard to tell if they're a boss.
Sometimes you'll just be fighting a trash pack, and, oh, there's a named mob in the middle of here. If I think of the wizard, I think he's called, in the undercity, the spider, he's just a part of the trash amongst a bunch of spiders. There was a boss in the Ironforge
that was just a part of everything else. He was just a slightly large dwarf. I think there should always be an emphasis on a boss enemy being a little bit more robust and obvious when you walk into a room.
I can remember So like I feel like it okay to have dungeons that are different styles So Ruins is a lot more of this like open experience
It's really easy to, like, maybe go the wrong way or miss something, but it's unique and novel, and, like, when you go in, it's a much different experience. I'm going to be honest, I actually probably, like, don't like it as much as, like, a Deadmines,
where you, you know, you kind of work your way through to the top or whatever, But it's cool because it changes it up. It's not whether I like it more or less. It's that it gives you a new way to experience a dungeon.
So having some like this and then some the other way, I think it's a cool change up. Whether or not you like it better or worse. The name of the golem that you fight in Ironforge, very clearly a boss, right? Stomping and patrolling this sort of graveyard crypt area.
It's like, oh yeah, that's the boss. Sometimes the guys are just sort of mingled in and they seem to just have more health than the others. And you're like, oh, there's a boss. Is he doing anything? Not really. Not that I expect them to do much at that level. That's totally fine.
But the overall message that I'm getting while I do these dungeons, and I did Gwaine and Caverns, and I was like, yeah, I know the route. I know what we're going to be doing here. There's some new loot tables and stuff. Is once again falling into that very large, very long,
you might remember we did this in our classic MMO video probably a couple of years ago, where his old dungeon design was big. Go big. Go grand. They're following that mantra. The eye forge itself is still very large,
and the other city certainly is very large. If they like that big scale, I do too. I think that's very fun. Certainly for a one-time visit, perfect, right? You're going to spend a lot of time there. You're going to gather some good items. You're going to explore. Really like that.
They've maintained all those classic sticking points. They're all there. It feels quite classic. It feels slightly better. They've learned so much in terms of how to spread out enemies, right?
it's those kinds of things I often hear about this in games like Trackmania is when people build maps sometimes you just get one that's smoother it just flows nicer it hasn't got some
obtuse moment in it that you're like oh this bit kinda sucks it just goes nicely Wailing Caverns is a fine dungeon but it has lots of those moments where you can often feel a little lost you can circle back
a little bit there's trash just sort of like haphazardly placed I actually forgot about this. It totally is. But I've done Wailing Caverns, like, a hundred times.
And I probably, maybe more. To the point where it's like, I don't even remember the last time I was lost. Because it's like, yeah, I know this place in the back of my hand now. But I totally forgot. It is a complete maze if it's your first, like, 20 times, honestly.
You know what I mean? the chains in a really weird way and make some very, very awkward pulls at low levels. You'll sometimes get like triple druid casters, which very few groups can manage
in a reasonable way, and it just feels messy and less fun. It's hard to damage them because they're all spread out, and you're like hoping you've got like a shaman to interrupt, or your warrior's going to do some interrupts to try and gather them. You've got to do some line of sight
around the very tiny... It's not been considered, right? There is a place to do it, but it's not considered. in a nice way. Doing the new dungeons, that's all been considered. Those are all the lessons, the positive lessons learned over the last 20 years
of how to design a dungeon. Like, oh, if we do it this way, it just flows that little bit nicer. Oh, we can jump through this gap. Yes, yes you can. Whereas other areas, you'll get hidden walls.
It looks like you should be able to go through that, but you can't. It's a hidden wall, you're not going to be able to do that. And it's not just straight paths that lead all over the place. I am so excited for this. Obviously my tendency in World of Warcraft is towards PvE.
I love the PvE side of it. It's why I've been doing the race to World of Warcraft for so long. It's why I raided at a max level for so long. Dungeons and PvE are my jam. This idea of this Indiana Jones...
One of the things that I really liked about plastic World of Warcraft... I mean there's so many things I like, but one of the big things was... Maybe this is... actually call me out if I'm wrong here. Maybe it's just in my imagination, but back in the day, in classic WoW, it always felt like this.
You were getting your character more geared and stronger for the end goal to eventually go kick some Horde butt. Or Alliance butt, if you were on Horde.
It was always about, let me get my character juicy so I could go smoke the other factions. Am I making this up? That's how I always felt. whereas when the game became more modernized
it's like I'll just stick to myself oh if I want a PvP I'll queue Arena but if not I'll sit in the city yes, no, no, yes so maybe it depends on who you ask but for me it was always like
let me raid let me get loot let me get stronger let me build my character because at the end of the day I want to go in the world and go kill some horde right whereas I think that was lost maybe it wasn't
like a switch, but it was like a slow loss over as the game became more modern. But like it kind of feels that way back in Classic Love still. It's like I want my character to be stronger here. Dungeons Dragons style of gameplay is so exciting to me because while I looked at the Ironforge and and was initially disappointed when I did consider actually no for a lot of Alliance players
and we are seeing this even from my live stream a huge amount of players obviously I have a very mixed audience these days of variety gaming who have never played World of Warcraft and have seen the excitement and the build
and the hype towards forever it's like okay I'm jumping in now some people have even bought the base and are loving it that's going to be their first experience with this even if they play Guild Wars, Final Fantasy XIV, or whatever it might be. Guys, it's so good.
I have some friends that haven't played WoW. They've played a bunch of other MMOs, and they're like, should I play forever? I'm just like, dude, it's so good. Like, I have my gripes. I have my things. I'm like, how did this get in?
Whatever. But, like, oh, it's just, oh. This is my first experience of a WoW dungeon, and they're really digging it. Whereas I had some opposite feedback from RFC of like, well, yeah, we did RFC, but it was just like mobs in a corridor.
I thought it was simply better, more atmosphere. We're stealing heirlooms from treasure rooms. We're opening vaults. Totally makes sense, right? That little touch, that little smoothness leading to nice, obvious areas where we're doing things and controllable.
And the trash packs are just a little nicer than what you'll see in those. So one of the things that private servers did to solve this, I think, from what you guys tell me, is Turtle WoW, for example, or Ascension, added new dungeons.
But what they also did is embellish current ones, added a new boss, added a new room, added a new quest, stuff like that. Which I guess there is a new Deadmines quest. I don't think I've done. How do you guys feel about that? Maybe Blizzard's already done this. I don't know.
Like more quests and bosses and stuff. Maybe they've already done it. I don't know. but if RFC needs a little bit of love or if Deadmines or some of these like adding another little thing could be cool Scarlet Monastery is another good example
another little side room or something to make it feel like oh wow this is something new I think the Turtle Well it seemed like a lot of the private servers ended up doing that and that way they could add new cool stuff
that would align but also like give some of the stuff a little facelift because you know it could use it But, I don't know. Some of the stuff is iconic, too. Like, a lot of this comes down to, yeah, that's a good idea, if you do it well, right?
Like, for a new class, I've been telling you guys that I'm terrified of a new class. I don't want it to ruin the game. But I will say this. If a new class is done very well, then yeah, that'd be sick.
But, like, sometimes maybe I'm, like, too pessimistic, but I'm just like, that's hard to do right. So maybe we don't do that for now. because if you mess it up, everything gets awful and it's really hard to actually pull off.
So let's put that on pause. You know what I mean? ...failing taverns and even stockades, for example, which is blocked into these individual areas and certainly dead mines, which is just a stream of enemies constantly, right?
Those little miners are constantly doing that. Although I will say, one thing I've forgotten about the dead mines is that every boss you kill spawns a patrol behind you that slowly and menacingly walks towards you. I love those guys.
on its merry way. When I saw that happen after we were checking for the potential rare boss that spawns there, I was like, oh yeah! That happens. Part of me wishes they'd done a little more with these dungeons, but I think
their internal feeling was this is Classic Plus. So this stuff should remain the same. But we're fine with new stuff. We can have fun in there and we can modify
that bit, but we should leave Classic alone. And I was like, alright, I get it. I'm not going to be super excited about going to SFK. I'm not going to be super excited about going to the Sunken Temple, let's all all those things. But I can't tell
you guys. When a new one pops up, I am going to be starry-eyed and bright, and I think you should be too. And I only implore you, if you've watched this far, do it blind. Don't watch the stream
of it. True. Turn the stream off, guys. Go in with a group of people who don't know what's in there, because I will be with you. I will be criminally He just wants it. No, no, not right.
Guys, no. Now, Preece isn't saying to leave right now. That's not what he's saying. He's saying to, like, that's not what he's saying. He's not saying to tune out right now. What he's saying is turn the stream off if they're doing new content that you don't want to see yet.
I think what Preece really meant is to make sure you use your free subs. I think that's really what he's trying to get to the bottom of in this video, which is different, much different but I would overall say
yes, yes, go in blind guys, go in blind it's good, it's good, it's good, it's great they talked about Scarlet Monastery a little bit and it's plain sailing because I don't think so
I don't think it's going to be that way I think we're going to be in for a wild ride so a little dungeon comparison for you there a little to your thoughts as well, leave them down below thank you so much and I'll see you next time bye guys
Yeah, Preach video. Thumbs up on that one. That was solid. I'm curious on everyone's takes on this stuff. A lot of the times I agree with Preach. I think it's just another example of that.