---
title: 'So Far, the New Xbox Boss Is Saying (and Doing) the Right Things | Friends Per Second #93'
source: 'https://youtube.com/watch?v=3sQwBhZigAw'
video_id: '3sQwBhZigAw'
date: 2026-08-14
duration_sec: 7916
---

# So Far, the New Xbox Boss Is Saying (and Doing) the Right Things | Friends Per Second #93

> Source: [So Far, the New Xbox Boss Is Saying (and Doing) the Right Things | Friends Per Second #93](https://youtube.com/watch?v=3sQwBhZigAw)

## Summary

In this episode of Friends Per Second, the hosts discuss the recent changes at Xbox under new CEO Asha Sharma, including a Game Pass price drop and a renewed focus on the Xbox brand. They also interview the creative director of Saros, Gregory Louden, about making the game more accessible than its predecessor, Returnal. The episode covers a variety of other games, including the new Diablo IV expansion and the charming sci-fi adventure Pragmata.

### Key Points

- **Game Pass Price Drop** [06:06] — Game Pass Ultimate has been reduced in price, with Call of Duty removed from the service. This is seen as a positive step, but also a correction of previous price increases.
- **Xbox Brand Rebranding** [13:25] — Microsoft Gaming is now simply 'Xbox', with a new logo treatment that nods to the old school neon green. This is seen as a move to recenter the brand and take pride in it.
- **New Leadership Manifesto** [14:18] — Asha Sharma and Matt Booty released a manifesto outlining their goals, with daily active users as the guiding metric. This shift in focus is significant for the company's strategy.
- **Exclusivity Debate** [17:30] — The hosts discuss the possibility of Xbox revisiting its stance on exclusivity, with some arguing that exclusives are important for competition and innovation, while others prefer games being available everywhere.
- **Saros Interview: Spiritual Successor** [32:23] — Gregory Louden, creative director of Saros, explains that the game is a spiritual successor to Returnal, focusing on 'come back stronger' mechanics and a more approachable structure.
- **Saros Accessibility Features** [39:02] — Saros introduces a 'second chance' system and early game modifiers to make the game more accessible, while still allowing players to increase the challenge if they wish.
- **Saros Gameplay Impressions** [55:12] — The hosts praise Saros for its tighter, faster, and more responsive feel compared to Returnal, noting improvements in controls and verticality.
- **Diablo IV Expansion Review** [07:02] — The new Diablo IV expansion adds two new classes (Paladin and Warlock) and a substantial campaign, with the hosts noting it's a significant improvement over the previous expansion.
- **Pragmata Impressions** [11:18] — Pragmata is praised for its solid gameplay, charming characters, and lack of filler. It's noted that the game was developed largely by younger developers, which is seen as a positive for the industry.
- **Titanium Core Interview** [40:15] — Titanium Core is described as a match-three strategy game that blends puzzle mechanics with tower defense and a surreal narrative. The creator, AP Thompson, discusses its development and unique design.

## Transcript

beans. >> know why he's so spry. It's 11:00 p.m. >> 7:30, baby. >> It's like we're It's like we're we swapped. I'm always the sleepy one. >> Now you guys are the sleepy ones. Now
you got to keep up with me. >> [laughter] for Second Podcast, uh where we gather here to talk about video games. I am Jake Baldino. I'm joined by Ralph, aka Skill Up, and Lucy
>> Good. >> covered that we're sleepy. >> We are. >> But otherwise, well. >> Otherwise well or wow? >> Otherwise well. Otherwise broadly fine.
>> Broadly fine. Broadly fine. Well, you were actually at BAFTA this >> That was a big day. >> Please be excited for all of the videos on the BAFTA socials cuz I was the red carpet correspondent with Jane Douglas.
reveal We also got to present an award as well, which >> Game design. >> Wow. right? >> Tanner Ross, yeah, for Blueprints.
>> nice. Well, it was a full circle moment cuz when we did it last year, Jane and I were both playing Blueprints and we couldn't stop talking about it. And then we got to give them the award. >> That's great.
Um a really fun night. >> You got to speak to Charlie Cox. That's crazy. That's That's our Matt Murdock right there. >> [laughter]
I Yeah, I finally met like Jack Septiceye for the first time, even though I've never met him, but I got so many mutuals including you two. Um and >> Bloodborne guy now. >> Yeah, the Bloodborne guy. What? The You
>> Yeah. >> Yeah. I'll I'll be I'd die happy with that on there. So, >> Mhm.
I asked him so many questions and he was like he's very very tight-lipped about >> Of course. Of course. >> Very excited about that. really fun night and I got to see all my friends. But I mean the problem {quote}
ever in London for such short periods of time, you don't really get as much quality time with as many people as you would like I'll hang out with people for like 15 minutes and then move on and go see
some other friends. Um but it was a lovely night and then we stayed up until 4:30 in the morning and we had to get a train to my parents' canceled. Me [laughter] and two of my friends and
we were just like not hungover, luckily cuz I didn't drink that much, but it was just exhaustion. So, we just sat outside the Greggs in King's Cross. [laughter] on the platform. They had to get the police in.
And I was just like I'm too tired for this gang. I'm too I can't do it. I >> Couldn't you have just caught like a 300-lb cab home? >> 300 lbs, Ralph? It's like a 6-hour drive.
>> Is it really? Okay, right. Fair enough. [laughter] Okay, scrap that then. >> 10,000 lbs. >> We ended up getting a train to like around all the disruption and then just go from there. Which which we did.
in Bath and then catch a 6-hour train home. That was the plan. >> Three 3-hour trains. 6-hour drive. >> Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. Got it. Okay. >> So, honestly, the train up to Newcastle is wonderful. It's really easy. It's
usually really comes really often through King's Cross. But sadly not that day. But it's fine. We made it. I saw my parents. A lovely time was had. >> Definitely. >> Sometimes they did tell me
tell me that sometimes they listen. So does my uncle Ken. >> Who do they like the most? >> Yeah. >> Me. >> [laughter]
>> [laughter] >> Yeah, your mom's like your mom's like, "I watch for Jake." Why? Why do you watch >> [laughter] >> Thanks. Thank you.
mother says But anyway, that's me. How are you guys? >> Jake's been in LA. >> Yeah, I checked out a video game. >> What's the embargo for that? >> Uh not now, but I
speaking about it. Yeah, the other thing is is kind of I did the YouTube Creator >> Okay. >> Uh where I got to like learn a lot about the execs and the engineers and like learn more and pepper them with
questions and tell them to fix the algorithm and stuff like that. Uh it was It was a good experience. Uh met a lot of people. It's kind of like I get thrust into a room with a bunch of content creators in other fields. So
it's very it's very different for me cuz I'm used to like our gamer crowds, you content creators. Uh but yeah. >> No. No, they wouldn't go to something like that.
[laughter] Seriously. >> It's to be able to yell at the same people. >> people were there though cuz like I posted from the same event and I was like,
like, "I missed her. It's fine. I'm sorry." >> No, it was it was cool though. It was it was nice to speak to a lot of you know, of in the space. Uh learn from some people, learn some
like that. Ralph, I actually have some cool things to tell you off camera just >> Cool. >> But yeah, for now I think we should >> But yeah, for now I think we should probably get into the video game stuff.
Uh next >> Again. >> Xbox again. Um I think since the last time we met, uh time we met, uh new Xbox CEO Asha Sharma has been
saying and and seemingly executing quite a bit. Uh I think the top thing is uh Game Pass. Game Pass Ultimate is now down in price. ever received an email telling me that one of my subscriptions is going down in
price. >> Yeah, huge in this economy. >> Yeah. >> So, yes. For now. For now. That's right. uh you know, taking out Call of Duty is
clearly like you know, that's what they did to bring the price down. Uh it's like, you know, you guys did drive the price up. Now you're just back. Yes, it's a good move, but it's also like you're unfucking your own. But
trying to take a punt with COD. They're like, let's see if this results in enough like new subscriber game to like balance it out. But clearly it didn't. Um I'm not fussed about COD not being on a subscription service. Obviously I
like I think if you also Also, if you did care about COD, I don't imagine that subscription service or like I don't know. If you're truly invested in COD, >> And you're probably you're probably pre-ordering so you get all your
>> All your bonusy stuff, you know what I mean? Like I think you're missing out on to play the yearly entry without having to front up the cost. And I understand that. Yeah. Sure. But like I don't know. If it results in the rest of Game Pass
per month, then clearly that's not a good value question for most people. For >> Yeah, I think a step in the right direction, for sure. Uh and you know, a lot of people are and there's been rumors and even like kind
suggestion that maybe Game Pass might become more of like a flexible subscription is interesting. >> Because they talked about some stuff >> Yeah, what what is going on with Discord? All I saw was like a a kind of
cryptic announcement that I did I couldn't really glean much from. specific. They just said that you're going to see I'll just say like you're like cuz they're they're testing some integration stuff. Discord was also
doing little winky faces at the camera. Like clearly they're proposing there's >> see see some code? What do you mean? See like get a code? Like >> No, no, as in like see code in the back
end of either Xbox or Discord. >> Oh, interesting. Nitro, there's Xbox Game Pass, you can imagine a world where one of those comes
And it kind of Yeah. Especially not I think Discord kind of needs that a little bit cuz the Discord Nitro product isn't as like compelling off the jump to just your average punter. Like if you're a real Discord hardcore user, you can
like if you're just sort of using Discord casually, you might need a bit for it and this could be that nudge. So it you know, it could make sense. >> I used to have Nitro and it was really nice to use custom emojis and stuff in
>> Sure. >> I was like, is this worth what, £5 a for it? >> Generally not. It's I think the main thing is like file sharing and also streaming quality if you're like
>> file sharing is a real >> Yeah. yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> For sure, for sure. >> [laughter] >> Oh, you do? I hate those ads. I'm like
>> It's like a game. You get to click on it and you win. Yeah. >> Although the only person I've ever seen do a Discord quest [clears throat] my god. >> I hated it so much. It was so bad.
>> [laughter] >> Um, but I think I mean look, it's it's this way. I think there's questions obviously about whether other first-party titles get pulled out of um the service, you know, on day one. Um
angsty about that, but I don't know, man. I just I I'm on a very different page when it comes to Game Pass versus most other people, which is like I'm kind of deeply uncomfortable with like these games that cost 200, 300
day one on a subscription service. Uh I think it makes a lot of sense for them to be sold at the box price at the beginning and then go to subscription services in back catalog. I know
about that and I get it for sure, you know, it's like tough times and all, but I also think about it from an industry sustainability perspective and just like how we value video games, what kind of premium we put on them as
stuff and I don't know, I just feel like anything that goes like day one onto Netflix, it just feels inherently less important release. Do you know what I mean? And I think for the overall sustainability of
it's it's imperative that like movies keep going to theaters. I think it's releases actually like have their moment in the sun as like box titles that you sort of have to really decide to like commit to
and decide to pay for and back catalog absolutely 100% makes perfect sense, but also it doesn't necessarily need to be like all or nothing, right? Like maybe Elder Scrolls 6 isn't on this service day one, okay? But you know,
next like Double Fine game on there, you know, day one. That's a that's a >> Good point. Yeah. >> But it's a smaller game and mean, a discovery and all sorts of things. Different different game budget. So, I
mean, I I'd be okay with them having a sort of hybridized approach where it's not every single game is going to be day one, but like where the game costs a lot of money and it's kind of a big deal, I don't I wouldn't think oh greedy
video game. I'd be like, well, they spent a lot of money to make it. it. You know what I mean? I don't know. I know a lot of people feel differently. >> I just like owning things even though sometimes I'm just owning a license, you
>> Yeah, exactly. >> Cuz that's the hellscape that we live in. No, I think Ralph, I agree to your point. I think just in practice to that where it's just like, well, how
why? And yeah, I think that's just that's just a very difficult path to walk down unless they do a real a new Game Pass ultimate ultimate tier which is everything Xbox owns and will always be there day and date.
>> No, yeah, I mean, sure, messaging messaging it would be tricky for sure, but like I don't know. Yeah, I mean, as I said, I begrudge a company charging money for a day one
money on. Do you know what I mean? I don't know. So, yeah. I mean, and look, like if they can find their sweet spot that makes it work. If they can find the sweet spot where it makes a lot of sense for them to put like, you know,
making money from it, the studio is sustainable and healthy, people are afford, then great. Everyone's happy. Do you know what I mean? It's just that I'm that is actually working for Microsoft, hence why we've had all these this
movement and this confusion and this back and forth. So, I don't know. Yeah. uh also Microsoft gaming is now just simply Xbox. Uh there's like a new logo treatment.
>> different logo. >> No, it's like it's it's got a bit of an It's like old school neon green, yeah. Yeah. >> It is. >> It's just like a nice nod.
>> Little things are appreciated like that. Uh and then the big thing was that Asha Sharma and Matt Booty collectively put out a big old manifesto or statement or targeting. >> Manifesto.
>> Absolutely. >> It's like a big long memo. >> Um you know, breaking down like, you know, what they want to do and like, you know, strengthen the current gen that still exists. Uh do the Project Helix
stuff. Enable developers. Build users. Fix their subscription stuff. It's a pretty long comprehensive list, but the big thing that I would love to know what you guys think is uh I believe they said daily active users is going to be their
their guiding thing for everything. >> Just like YouTube is, man. Just like us many people play Marathon, man. Same thing, you know. thing, you know. >> [laughter]
Does that mean more like log in every day and get your Game Pass quest stuff? >> They used to do that and then if you got enough points or whatever, you could get money off your uh like money off stuff or your money off
>> You could game it, but like at the end of the day, I don't know. I think I'm pretty shitty engagement. They're looking for They're probably looking for >> Yeah, like make a cool new Halo. That gets everybody playing again. Like
>> I don't know about that. I don't know. >> Um So, I mean, look, I think yeah, for me personally, I think that, you know, the rebrand to like Xbox gaming, I I
>> Yeah. >> they're really sort of putting like planning a flag cuz I I think I was definitely convinced last year that like Xbox as a brand was kind of just going to fade and just be like well we're
Microsoft gaming now. >> Six months ago we were talking about it >> For sure. We're like we're bigger than Xbox now. Microsoft gaming is Mojang and it's King and it's this and that. It's a bunch of disparate publishers and you
Microsoft gaming label. And uh you're just cracking a beer there Jake. >> Little bit of a day for him. Hey. >> Um it just came through the mic so >> I tried to hide it. Sorry, excuse me. [laughter] I was trying so hard
>> right up and just owned it. Um But yeah, so like they really they're saying that Xbox is their brand. Xbox matters. And I really respond to that a lot. I'm like cool, that's great. Like taking some pride in this brand and
of their gaming stuff. And obviously like Minecraft and King sit separate from it sure, but like what they're saying is that like the cultural center of their gaming initiatives is Xbox. And I'm into that man. I'm into that sort of
brand pride and and then recentering that. I don't know. Um >> Yeah, I don't think I realized just how much stock I put in uh or how much weight I should say that I have to certain brand names. And I
think the thing that was just so unattractive about Microsoft gaming as a of Microsoft word word processing, Teams, Outlook. You know, like even if it was Windows. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just
all this stuff where it's like Xbox um automatically unconsciously like oh like. That is the gaming. That's the good stuff. And so yeah, I I the pivot to Microsoft gaming was a bizarre one and I really question the
But yeah, I do I do like the fact that Asher and Matt are kind of just proof is going to be in the pudding. We'll have to see what actually does end >> Yeah. >> But I don't know. It feels like
going away. This is all seems to be good momentum in a direction that's All right, hey, it's a direction. Clear direction. >> And I think but I think, you know, there's also that the question about
the most salient detail in that whole thing where they said they're willing to revisit their view on exclusivity. >> Mhm. changer. And >> you think you What do you think? Like I
genie's out of the bottle. You can't really go back on that. I think it can be I think people they can reverse that. >> I mean and like I don't know again, different views on what this is and whatever else, but like
I don't know if if if Xbox were to say Elder Scrolls 6 is going to be, you know, exclusive to Xbox consoles for at least a year, think it moves the needle, right? Because it's like cool. What they What
actually care about their hardware. They think it's worth like putting money behind. They think you should buy this product and they believe in it. And then have to look stand back and look at that and be like, well, do I agree? Do I
money? And you might come to the conclusion till it comes to other consoles or whatever. But you might but that moment it, you really can force to confront like, is Xbox worth my money at this
I don't know and I think that, you know, obviously Xbox will have fought pretty might say yes in that moment. I don't know. I I exclusivity. I've always long been a like proponent of the idea of consoles
having exclusive video games and taking pride in that. You know, it's like it's obviously why Sony is as dominant as they are. Um so, yeah, man. I don't know. I know it's super unpopular. I get it, but I
I'm also just kind of into it. I mean I'm into exclusives. I'm into like these platforms really valuing their products and really saying no, we believe in what experience it here. I mean, that's it, you know, and and if I'll put the caveat
other platforms down the track for sure, you know, and I think Sony stepping away from PC is a real disappointment. I think that's a just a straight-up But it is their decision. Nintendo obviously, we don't even bother thinking
anything cuz Nintendo are just so weird, right? We don't even bother thinking companies, they feel like we can they could be reasoned with where like, "No, everywhere else? Yeah, sure." Yeah. Um
>> Did you see Shpeshal Nick saying about the PlayStation PC stuff, too? He was >> get why they're doing that." >> Yes, I did see that. He was not happy. >> So, how do you feel you guys feel about exclusivity? Don't What do you What do
>> Yeah, you always have a hot take, but I kind of like I flip-flop on the day. I everywhere and more people playing them and more option and more choice, but uh it Yeah, it's undeniable that like it's it's a good enticement. It's a good
>> Yeah. >> W- especially in terms of like Xbox, the thing at the top of my head is just, all right, get some good [ __ ] Like again, like what I I I joked, but like seriously, like Halo used to move
mountains. Get Halo going or come up with the next Halo. Like I know that's easier said than done, but like get it going. Get the games, you know? Get me [clears throat] wanting to buy the console and have the exclusives on
>> Yeah. I'm in the same boat as Jake with. I feel like I flip-flop on it cuz I do agree that I want more people to be able to play wherever they are at, whatever point is. Um but at the same time, competition breeds
>> Yeah. >> um scrappiness. It breeds innovation. Um and I I miss the We've talked about this before. I miss the PlayStation versus Xbox stuff. I miss you know the the playful jabs at
Um the infamous E3 hallway photo that miss that stuff. >> Yeah. >> I'm I'm glad that like Xbox isn't
dissipating into some other kind of Microsoft product. I'm I am glad that they are doubling down on Xbox presumably now uh for that reason because like it keeps things interesting. And it
interesting. If you have two players, one is Sony doing their console, making games, making people want to buy the console. And then Xbox, then also they're doing like the thing with PC with Helix and like
[clears throat] so it's like you have two different avenues. That's cuz I like talking about this stuff for my job, but I think just in terms of >> Yeah. >> Yeah, it's it's better than just Sony
>> I totally agree. How do you reckon Phil Spencer is happening right now, all this messaging going out? give a [ __ ] >> [laughter]
now. >> Well, do we know is he is he completely retired? Does he like have some sort of chair or board position or or what? >> he's done. Yeah, they didn't announce [laughter] any kind of yeah, emeritus
he's he's just done, so Um yeah, I mean I don't know. I I I don't know. Like we I think we kind of know Phil Spencer's instincts as like a hardcore gamer guy and I think we kind of assume that many of the moves in the
last little while away from that kind of hardcore vision was sort of hoisted upon him by Microsoft especially the post-Activision Blizzard acquisition era, you know? I don't know. I I
I don't know. I I I I think obviously this is clearly a break from the last the decisions that he made. I wonder whether or not he was the one that made those decisions. >> But he took the fall for it.
obviously just guessing and we're just whatever else, but secretly, this is my I think Phil Spencer would like these changes. I That's my That's my belief. and how he like and what he understands in this industry, what That's my
suspicion. I could be wrong about it. As I said, it just be head canon [ __ ] >> I mean, I'm I'm I'm still I'm still very interested in what Sarah thinks of it all and where Sarah's going to end up.
>> I mean, obviously yeah, I mean, [clears throat] obviously Phil was leading the division and stuff. Um but I I still find Sarah's stuff interesting, but that's cuz I'm a nosey cow.
cow. >> [laughter] >> Love that. Um so that's Xbox. I as I said in my news show as well, I'm like Xbox does this. They talk.
>> Yes. >> They're like Guys, guys, we've heard what you have to say and we've decided this is what we're going to do now. And then 18 months later, turns out we didn't do any of that.
So, I think uh it's encouraging. It's the right direction. I think I think though. Like she's, you know, cut the spice of Game Pass, re-centered the Xbox brand, and you know, we're sort of really committing
about this. Like we're not [ __ ] around. This is Asha was clearly not brought in to sunset the Xbox brand and like, you know, make AI slop games. Do you know what I mean? Like I think Clearly, she has a
different agenda and I think she's like communicating it well off the jump. And hope for for someone who's like new to a position like this. >> Yeah, like we've seen quick actionable things. They're not all completely big
picture yet. Like, you know, the full actions need to be seen down the line. are steps, there are things happening this quickly makes me go, "Okay, let's see how we're looking in 6 months, in a year, and how things are going now."
Looking forward to their showcase in June, cuz they always have like because they have all of the IP now, they own all of it. They just always have the games, so >> Yeah.
come to us." Do you know what I mean? So, uh it'll be interesting to see what >> Yeah, just uh make them good. Make them good games. That's That's all I want in this world. Uh so, with that, uh we do have a very
stacked episode. We have uh an interview with some of the folks behind Saros. We have an interview with some of the folks behind Titanium Core. Uh and we have to talk about playing Saros and playing Pragmata and a bunch of stuff. So, I
think for now, we'll probably kick it to an interview. Uh Ralph, who did you >> I spoke to Gregory Louden or Lowden. I don't know actually. I don't I should have I think it's Louden. I could be wrong about this. I feel like I should
behind you? >> That's actually what I was thinking to >> Have I just like uh So, uh I wonder if I could just Is it Lou It
is It's l o u d e n. That's definitely how it's spelled. How it's pronounced, a really um fascinating chat. He is the creative director on Saros. Uh and I had finished Saros. Um and then cuz we recorded it earlier
obviously I finished the game before I reviewed it. Um but yeah, he's Australian, and he's just made He and his team, I should say, have made like one of the best games of this cuz present generation, you know,
it's another like incredible Sony first-party exclusive. So, kicking over first-party exclusive. So, kicking over to that interview right now. >> Just kidding. Before we do that, a quick word from the sponsor of this week's
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>> I didn't know that that was the deal. That's actually really cool. >> I got to re-sign. Cool, that's what I'm saying. All right. Thanks, HelloFresh, for sponsoring the episode. Yeah. Now, let's get back to that interview.
let's get back to that interview. >> [music] The guys are really devastated they couldn't be here for this chat as well, but time zones are not kind to us. So, we do appreciate you. Where are you
based right now? Where are you? >> I'm here in Helsinki, Finland. >> Yeah. Originally from Australia. We were just chatting. You're from Australia as >> Yeah. >> Uh the the the the I don't follow the
football. Do you follow the football? There's a team. They wear the red and >> Yeah. >> Dragons. That's the one. That's it. >> Not so much now that I've I've been in Europe for almost 15 years, but still.
When I grew up, it was the thing, so. >> Uh nice. Nice. always great to go back, but yeah, Finland's been really good to me. And I'm really proud of, so. Yeah, here I am.
>> Quite a quite a scene over in Finland, if I'm not mistaken. Quite a game dev >> Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yes. So, I actually I got my foot in the door. Really grateful to Remedy. I got to work on Quantum Break in the early days of Control
I was lucky enough to hear about Housemarque wanting to kind of transition into doing a game with story. That was kind of my part of my narrative and cinematic director on Returnal.
yeah, the creative director of Sarrows. So, it's been been amazing. Did not see it coming when I joined Housemarque after their history, but yeah, I'm Returnal and Selene. Yeah, cool to be here.
>> Well, dude, I got to tell you, I was a massive fan of Returnal. I loved it. I genuinely don't think people are ready for just how good Selene is though. Like I am playing it right now. Like I'm I'm just finished the second biome and I'm
just [ __ ] blown away by how good this is. Like I something about this thing that as soon as I picked it up, I'm like, what the hell? Like how what is this? How did they find a new level? Like this is the
soundscape, the visuals, the art design, the story, like all of it. It just feels like unbelievable. I love it so much and I guess I just want to say that right the way. As I said, I've only finished the second biome, but um it's rare to
click with the game this fast and this hard, but I'm absolutely um done so. >> That's so cool. Yeah, no, we're so proud. Like we have such an amazing team for the longest time we've all felt we've had something special, but we've
just kept pushing to try to make it better and better and better. So, it's >> I'm so interested cuz I'm like when I played Returnal, I'm like, how do you make this better? This is it, right? It's it. It's done. Just put a bow on
this formula. But it feel but like you have found a new level here and I guess processing it. I'm still playing through it. I haven't really figured out like what is that thing? So, I'm really interested to think about like to to
discuss the foundations of this. You know, when you set out to make a sequel to Returnal, like what were your goals and and in particular, like why isn't it it just a narrative thing or are you making a statement about how it's a
different experience as well? >> Yeah, no, it's it's definitely intended ways. You could say it's a spiritual successor, but it was never our intent. we were so proud of Returnal and we felt like we said what we wanted to say with
But we're also even early on we were talking about things that we felt like could have been Returnal 2, but weren't really true to Returnal. Like we wanted to have more characters. Um we wanted to kind of change the formula a bit, and we
almost wanted Returnal to stand on its own the same way that Resogun stands on its own. It's these games that when you think of a PlayStation 4, you think of Resogun. When you think of a PlayStation 5, you think of Returnal. It was just
special that we could have continued, but instead we're like, "How can we challenge ourselves even more? How can we push ourselves? How can we push the formula we've created?" So, with that in mind, there was a small crew. It was the
Returnal directors. We kind of came together and we're chatting the immediate things was it's not just a tagline was come back stronger. How could we take the formula and actually allow players to
um even more players to come into this experience that we're really proud of. themselves. So, that was kind of the initial vision intent. The next thing uh back Harry Krueger when we were working on Returnal, he's like, "Let's
said, "Harry, it's hard to do one character well. Let's do one character really well, and then once we've done that, we can add more characters." So, then other thing in the cocktail, you could say, was additional viewpoints.
Um we all love dark science fiction. We all love cosmic horror. We all love the atmosphere and vibes we created with Returnal. So, that was something we And then last but not least, there was the eclipse. This idea of what's a
bigger cosmic event than literally two celestial bodies overtaking each other. It just felt like something so right for cosmic horror. So, with all that in mind, it was not Returnal 2. It was Saros. It was
was just a process of iteration, evolution, deciding what to keep, deciding what to change. But the comeback stronger, the eclipse, genesis point. >> Right. So, it sounds like
it was in large part driven by the narrative choices for the game, but at the same time there was that mechanical aspect of come back stronger where of meta progression that's kicking in that's, you know, changing the
correct? >> Yeah, somewhat, but I would say even tool. It wasn't just purely thematic. It was how can we use this to escalate our gameplay? It's Basically, it's back when we were chatting about the early vision,
just how can we push to your point? How can we push this gameplay even further? It's like let's add this whole world escalation. So, I say it really at soon as you're on board there's a big thing that says gameplay first and
and the art and the visuals and the music. Really proud of the music in Saros, but nonetheless it's always been from a gameplay perspective. get to music. Oh my god. So, but I want to ask what did Sony say
don't want to call this Returnal 2. We wanted to call it Saros." Were they "I don't know about that." or were they fully on board? They were like, "Yep, >> PlayStation have been incredible. They've just backed us. So, we told them
we wanted to kind of create this new vision. We wanted to add these features amazing game." And it's been a privilege to work with them all. For Returnal we're an independent studio. Saros is our first game as a
supportive. It's And still humbled. I always told the team we're so lucky to be doing this. We're having this full support to create a new dark science fiction world and creating a really bold and pretty
wild game. Like you've only seen the opening, but we really really go for it by the end. So, it's it's phenomenal. But yeah, no, they've supported us and they've believed in us. So, it's it's been wonderful.
>> Awesome. That's fantastic. So, um tell me as So, you as you you had your own vision for what you wanted to create. But I guess you were also probably responding to some of the feedback from Returnal.
points. So like what were you holding in your mind in terms of player feedback that you were looking to like double down on versus maybe, you know, take another stab at this time around? >> I'd say in the biggest way it was um
as a team we really loved Returnal and we really believed in it and the the critical response it was phenomenal. So many people loved it as well. So for us the main vision statement originally was refinement not reinvention or evolution
not revolution was so much of what we're doing is working mentioned earlier, how can we push it and make this game even better? How can we make our even tighter? How can we push our
DualSense haptics even further? How can we use the adaptive trigger more? So it was just a process of refinement and distillation to really try to refine the formula. How can we tell an even more haunting story that
have another character that you can examine and study. So it was just it was a process of evolution more than anything. And from there it's and turns. That's the nature of developing a game but in the end it was
we always just played a lot as a team enough and we kept pushing and pushing and pushing and it's it's been team working on this game.
>> Nice. So in terms of I definitely one of the pieces of feedback with Returnal before was that, you know, some people really liked the idea of it and they found it quite impenetrable in terms of the structure of it and I know you guys
well with regards to like, you know, saving runs and suspending your system and all sorts of stuff. So I guess it feels to me as though this is more accessible. Like Sarcophagus is a more accessible game structurally.
like, "Hey man, you just got to get to the end. You're going to see actually like, where where do you think you landed on that? it's more approachable, and it's more approachable intentionally that
>> the big thing we realized with Returnal was once people got it, they they loved couldn't click with it. So, from the beginning, we're like, this opening ballet. It's about learning to teach you how to dance. So, the enemies are kind
of providing these things, and we do escalate the challenges we continue, but rather than just saying there's a there's a wall that you can't get to if you really want to love this game. Um we actually have more systems. So, one
second chance, which obviously if you've played Returnal, that's the the astronaut figurine that you you love when you get. We just give this to action. It has more of the arcade spirit. You've got one extra life. You
can get back to it. Don't give up. The next thing was the early game modifiers. >> By the way, I was quite surprised how early that came. I was like, "Oh, okay, difference for your progression very early on.
>> 100% and it was also it's it's once again, it's like the vision statement as you have both. So, you're kind of some people that picked up Returnal, they bounced was they just didn't feel
as rewarded, but we give you Lucenite, which is what the Solari's come into this planet for. You use this energy to upgrade yourself. We have the Don't know >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Once you unlock it, you can if
you're like, "I want Saros turned up to 11." Push it. Like, you can do it. Turn off second chance. Turn off the permanent progression. Just go. But we allow more people to love what we're building cuz as a team, we love it. We
just want even more people to experience like what we're building. So, it was a make it approachable, but once again, if you want challenge, it does escalate by modifiers to get through the end, but at least the beginning, we wanted to guide
everyone through the bullet ballet, guide them through even the aiming. We really assist you with that, cuz the game's about movement. So, really put a lot of attention to detail in our onboarding, so everyone who picks
up Saros can love it and just get lost in it. >> So, do you think anything's lost by these structural changes? Cuz I think it was one of the defining aspects of Returnal, it's is its, you know, quite
anything is lost in this change of formula, or do you think it's like it's >> I think it's just different. And I think that's the nature of we still have Returnal, so that people that jump into Saros, and they're like, I want to try
like it but Returnal, and then you can have that. Um the other thing with the modifiers to the point was we we wanted to allow that structure to be played as well. You can remove the second chance, so you don't have that. You can remove
Returnal, you rely purely on the transient, what you're getting in run. for us it was we wanted to create something different, which is why it's new it's a new game, a new world.
But I would say if you do want the a kind of Returnal experience, you can you is we allow you to teleport to find stuff, but you can you can just go from the beginning and just flow through them all. It's awesome. I love that. So, it's
it's just about we've created something we've set out to create something really special and bold. So, it's just another way for players to experience it. And that feel, I mean, I it feels tighter, it feels faster, it feels more
responsive, like it just feels more, I don't know. I I again, I haven't picked it up, I'm like, there's something here. So, what was that thing and how did you do it? Like, mechanically, what were you thinking
about with regards to how you were going to evolve the overall feel of this game? proud of the team. Like I didn't think we could top Returnal either. I was like, "Okay, this is great." But then the moment we pushed the controls even
it was maybe about halfway through development where jumped back into slow. Like this is bizarre." >> Definitely does. Absolutely. >> Yeah, so basically it was just a process of iteration and like the adaptive
trigger. We knew we loved what we did with Returnal, but we wanted to add even >> So don't know if you tried the old fire, if you halfway pull. >> It's it's amazing, but basically taking all these elements we have and just
constantly pulling and pushing and trying to find a way even the our enemy designers for these spectacular like bullet patterns. It's I think every aspect is just >> Yeah, it's just a benefit of building on
your success. To the same point, it's refinement, not reinvention. We're just refining every aspect to kind of make it like tighter and faster and yeah. But no, I feel the same. When I I love Returnal,
but when I jump back, it's even some control movements we did. Like we moved fingers off the DualSense. It's >> Yes. >> Totally. And I'm also playing with the
so I'm using the back paddles and it's such a godsend cuz I'm using like one for the grapple. And so like I just off the sticks and it's just if you know what I mean.
Um so really interested in this story. I think it's fascinating. As I said, I'm only starting to scratch the surface of it in my own playthrough. Um but just finding it so compelling. Tell me like what was the inspiration
you know, like yeah, where did where did this come from? And I guess I would just as a bit of grounding for anyone who hasn't played Returnal yet, maybe just as well. So people you know, get a sense of of of what the mystery might be.
particularly as you're not there yet, but um but nonetheless, like I'd say Saros is a story of a stranger in a strange land and an ominous eclipse, and our goal was to make a haunting dark science fiction adventure about uh
basically a character coming back stronger, a character growing from their So, basically, it's it's a story of Aaru Devaraj, performed by Rakie Ayola. He's gamer. He really has believed in this game and
so proud of his performance and like >> Mhm. >> Definitely. >> Nonetheless, um immediately from Returnal, we wanted to have a crew. So, you're part of the Echelon 4.
And Echelon 4 has gone to this lost planet Carcosa. other ships. They've all lost contact, and Aaru's But part of the twist, no one say more is he's there looking for someone and he
>> Yeah. >> That's as mysterious as I can be. Our goal is to tell a mysterious and haunting story, but it is dark sci-fi. corrupting people's minds and >> Mhm.
adversity in order to reach the other side. No, I I again, I don't want to spoil anything either, but it it doesn't waste any time. It immediately starts teasing things, and I'm finding that it's
it's delivering me little like meaningful story clips at a like at a good beat, you know what I mean? Um and I'm just very, very compelled to find out more about it. I think it's really well written and just very, very
compelling. I just it's a real when you get to those cut scenes and you find rewarding. Um never feels like it's kind of spinning its wheels, you know? Um so, really, really enjoying it. Um the
sound. Like I just >> [sighs] man? Like just how? Like how do you do this? What is the process of making a I don't understand. Can you please explain it?
we're working with like the amazing like PlayStation creative arts team. So, we worked with us on the sounds. So, they're based in London, we're here in There's other people that contribute, but they're
they're masters. Like, I'm so proud and humble I get to work with these people. They really know how to use Tempest 3D audio. They really understood the vision. They they really aligned with everything we're building. So, with this
in mind, they just came together and once again, iterate on what we did with Returnal. But, the big thing is we've got a very different identity with this it's just oh, they just took what they did, but
it's really been tonal change everything. Like, Sutarius is a lot more brutal, um more dystopian company. So, Astra was more friendly. So, the sound heavier, more brutal as well. So, all these
Tempest. They've we worked with them on the haptics, but it's a real process of iteration. We do lots of reviews. We always add lots of subtle storytelling to every sound. So, we put lots of
secrets in this game. So, a lot of the listening to are actually made of samples of other things. So, we're through sound design so much storytelling and atmosphere. So, yeah,
>> Yeah. >> It's been a dream to work with them. So, once again, the same people that helped us work with Sam Slater. And then the dialogue. So, yeah, it's they're incredible. So, I
spent a lot of time in mixing reviews of them, listening to the game, and pushing sound as good as possible. But, it's just to your question, it's just a lot with a lot of experience pushing. So,
sound was industry leading, and I think this again tops that, you know? And I think the music as well is just like unbelievable the way it sort of Yeah, I have words for it. I just know it's just [ __ ] cool music, man, and everyone's
>> Yeah. >> On that point as well, just on the Sony other Sony studios in any of the aspects that you work on? Like And And are there something from another studio, they've added something to your game to make it
>> Yeah, so something um uh we kind of announced it earlier. the longest time. So, we worked with XDEV since 2006, so that's 20 years. Been part of PlayStation since 2021, so 5 years. But, yeah, 20-year collab with
been supporting us and all these kind of great PlayStation of it. Uh we've also been working with Nixxes in Utrecht in the Netherlands. there's been a lot of uh co-development to really support us to really develop
I've I've loved it cuz everyone's so excited about the game and is so proud. And it means a lot. Like, we have our Slack and everyone's saying, "I love >> Dude. >> It's a It's a great vibe.
game, man. Like as I said, I'm only halfway through it, or probably less, but even even then it's just so clear that it's just a just a like instant [ __ ] banger. Like, it's so good. Anyway, um wrapping up, I want to ask
you've made Returnal, it was incredible. You're making this, it's incredible. Are there more games like this on the way from Housemarque? Or is it like, done with this formula. We want to try a totally different formula now." What can
you tell us about the future? >> I'd say um obviously in the end it's it's always based on success. We'll need to see what happens with Saros. going to I'm going to tell you right now. It's going [clears throat] to be a
>> Thank you. All right, great to hear that. But, I think in the end it's we we see how people react, how people respond. And if people love it as much yeah, we'll keep building on what we're building on.
much for your time. Really do appreciate it. It was um really great talking to so um and uh yeah, best of luck with the future. And uh we'll hopefully chat again. I'd love to love to chat the next
time you uh put something out. >> Yeah, we'd love to. I know. Thanks for hyped. Enjoy the ending. It's it's it's great. >> Awesome. Thank you. >> [music]
like we're both on the same page. Uh really like it. I think for me, man, I >> [gasps] >> here we go." Cuz [laughter] I >> here we go." Cuz [laughter] I appreciated Returnal. Yeah. I played a
really appreciated what Returnal did, but ultimately pretty far in, eventually, like I hit a wall and I was like, "I just can't do to play something else. I want to see something else."
So, eventually, I fell off of it. Um and Souldiers hooked me. It does a lot like we could talk about like the difficulty and stuff, but um Souldiers just really hooked me. I love the way it plays. I like the story. I
really like the sci-fi aesthetic. Uh I just think it's really solid. I was think for me I I I've been describing it to some friends as kind of like Returnal but like by way of
go, "Ooh, Doom Eternal." But I mean it in terms of like you can play it like a maniac. You can zip around. You can jump on that. Grapple on that. Boom boom boom >> things? >> I so the parry I [ __ ] love in this
game. And I'm not this big parry guy. But when I unlocked the parry in this game, and when it finally clicks, and like especially when you get into a boss back-to-back parries, it almost feels like a sports game where you're like
spiking a volleyball after a while and the game just has so much like all the games mechanics from like the way the weapons fired everything all has that weapons fired everything all has that satisfying tangible to it. I I've been
The the difficulty is interesting because it's generally >> Oh dude. >> But there's also the modifier system as well. So if you need even more help or if you want to make it even sweatier.
worked for me. It's cool. I think there's there's two ways. I think developers can stick to their vision and have this uncompromising challenging way to go the other route and kind of have the best of both worlds.
>> I feel like sorry about my disc. I think that the difficulty conversation I sort of view it differently because like I think that the this game is that if you just go into a new biome without farming up
it's challenging. You know, like it's it's a challenging game. If however you have played a few biomes before that and you use those as a chance to farm up materials like farm up artifacts, weapons
whatever stats, levels, whatever. >> Yeah, stack your build basically. >> Then the game becomes extremely easy, right? And I think that there's definitely going to be some kind of discourse around that.
because like you can I'm not exaggerating when I say that you can just like go back three biomes, play through them minutes, right? You are so fat with stats you are essentially unkillable and
just lets you hold down a button and it will just clear the room for you and you to say well clearly that's a bad thing because it's not as hard as Returnal was and whatever else and it's like well you control the buttons you press man.
biomes. You can go back one biome and you just become a little bit stronger or still harder for you. You can put those modifiers on. And I think if there's one complaint that I might have about that difficulty is like I it would be nice if
incentivized a little bit, but they're not. They're like purely optional, >> Yeah, that's that's a good point. >> And so, you know, but those choices are all there for you. And I think we also just like need to recognize the reality
of like only about 25% of people who bought Returnal finished it. Because it >> You know what I mean? Structurally, it was just too much. And so, it's kind of like for the people who did finish it, then that's great. Good for you. Good
loved it. It was incredible, right? But I also don't begrudge them wanting to say, "Okay, well, we've made something that not everyone can enjoy. Let's figure out a way to to do that." And I don't I never felt like that um
the challenge or the the feeling of Returnal was at all lost when I was playing through Saros so long as I was playing it at that sort of when I wasn't farmed up, as I said, right? If I go back and farm,
the game is very, very easy. But if I'm playing it like the other way, then it's it's there right the way through. And I also, without spoiling anything, there is a thing at the back end of the game that kind of forces you to play it
on the game's terms more so than your own and you can have farmed up the skill tree to make that easier, but you can't like pre-farm that last area. I'll put >> Yeah. >> So, that is is is still intact there in
Um So, I just think it's phenomenal. I just some Returnal um during the review process and the feeling that you that of Saros is so different and so much better than Returnal was. Returnal has this
I don't know you I don't Did you go back and play some Returnal while reviewing >> Okay, right. You can watch some of the videos, but if you play it, you'll feel when you jump around a lot where your character almost starts to lose their
response like Selene loses her responsiveness which you when you bunny hop too much, she stops being fully controllable and she'll start to slide a little bit in her jump where there's nothing like that in Saros. Like Aja is
single second. The game is so much more vertical cuz of the uses the grapple hook more. There's more jump pads. Like it's just faster, man. Like it's so much faster and tighter and better and that feeling is just incredible like all the
game. It's it's it's crazy. >> I loved the like it really clicked for me when like I hit the hit the boost jump and I jumped up in the air and I like just happened to jump up and dodge some particles and
then I did the ultimate blast and like blast an enemy and finish them and I was like, "Ooh, that feels really damn good." And I like though that they did carry a lot of the stuff over from Returnal like the all the dual sense
stuff, the half pulling the trigger for different things. Like all that feel is just kind of built on top of that. Um and also the story cuz I remember with Returnal I was like, "Ooh, there's some cool ways
they're telling the story." And they do more of that from like visuals and just that. There's some like stilted character conversations that aren't the best, but I think the game has really good character
>> Yeah. >> They're actually damn good. Like like a BioShock where you want to listen to all these >> audio diaries. The world itself, the sci-fi aesthetic
>> is incredible. I watched your video this morning. You nailed it with the >> Yeah. >> That entire biome tricks look and feel. I never thought I would like see that level of detail and that visual
insanity on screen. And it it it's just so cool from the the the AI Echelon's AI. I forgot what it's called program. >> Uh primary. >> Primary. All that just the way it speaks, the way it continues to speak,
>> the way it looks. I like just good sci-fi like you're kind of working for corporation like >> I think also the soundscape is connected >> The soundscape is actually I feel like quite Dune-inspired. Like there's this
sort of like very deep guttural sort of quality to many of the sounds that it employs where they sort of seem to like leap out from a deep dark place, you inspirations from different places. Like I I definitely feel some Dune in its
sound. I feel some like Matrix in its its visuals and um you know, obviously see some Alien in many parts of it, right? The the corporate Weyland-Yutani thing but also some of the visual motives and yeah,
which I won't spoil there's like all different inspirations again. So I think it's drawing from such a broad so many broad places and I think it's really creating something unique and on its own though,
right? I just think the this motif of like the sun and and the eclipse and this cycle and it's all just really fascinating and it's and it's really well told. Um but just it's the playing of it that defines it, right? As you
know, as as cool as it is to look at this game and listen to it and the the end of the day, right? You pick this up and you're like, "Whoa, I don't want want to You just want to like suck every [ __ ]
ounce out of it in terms of its gameplay because it's just so good and so rewarding and so satisfying to do it. And as me the point of my review where I'm just like there's a point where just instinct takes over. You don't even feel
you're playing this game because the controls are so intuitive and it's so fast that there's no kind of gap between you and the and the control and the like just you're just reacting at that point and
There's so few games that get that right and this is one of them. >> It really shows when it's like your first time experiencing a boss and then it turns out there's a million more phases to that boss and you're like,
And it's just you got reacting with everything you've kind of learned and like your instinct and like how you're working through these bosses feels so just get into this groove and you're like not thinking but like you're just
well and feels really smooth and is just well thought out like can enable that. >> Yeah. >> And then I I like um actor Rahul Kohli
>> And then I I like um actor Rahul Kohli as Arjun Devraj. He's badass as this Superman-y character. His character is more in-depth than just being badass. There's There's a lot to it that I think is cool to see portrayed in a video
game. Uh there's some subtleties there that I found really interesting. >> But uh yeah, man. Just good bosses, good feeling weapons. Honestly, like my other nitpick or criticism is I wish there were more
ways to build out your character, you >> I I agree. I I think yes, I do agree problem with the weapons is that like there's clearly weapons that are way
way better. You know, and there's certain variants. Like there's a shotgun and then there's one that has like a pellet variant. And that's like basically a grenade launcher and this thing just shreds everything and you're
use." And there's assault rifles and there's one that has like a smart tracks targets for you and can shoot them through walls and you're like, "Well, that's the one I'm going to use." You know? Uh there's a there's a
charge it manually and release it every time. Or you could just hold down the button and it just fires automatically really fast. And the alternate fire for that one automatically targets enemies around
>> Yeah. >> So there are those things where you again, I do come back to this idea that like well, that's part of the texture of the game. Like if you want to play it in different way and make it harder for
yourself, you could play the normal sort of like >> Yeah. >> And you could focus more on melee some of the melee artifacts to build around that. But you're right, it's
could do a lot more work there for sure. Um but >> Also, the weapons that uh are like without spoiling them, but grain and are a little more experimental,
>> I found them really interesting. I was like, "Ooh, I don't think I've ever seen >> And you know, like they're all the time convince someone to buy the game. There's the the coolest weapon in the
entire game is this like um you fire >> Yeah, they're multiple size. >> You fire a projectile and it embeds itself in a target. And then you half
press the left trigger and it will basically grind that target. Like it'll spin that projectile. So it's in their flesh spinning. It's the most Doom so bad >> It's like the uh Do you remember the
>> 100% of the time. >> And it's like now you're holding the a >> brain out, you know? So that is exactly you see with the weapon design. And there are other examples like that. None
lots of cool examples, you know? Uh but it's just a really really good. >> Man, it's so good. >> this type of thing. And then I think the way they tie it in with very like
kind of realistic and like dark feeling and storytelling and environment design is just a really cool combination that like you can only that's only video >> Yeah, I totally agree. I think it's just a really
crushed it, you know, I think there's obviously going to be discussions around know, that's fine and that makes a lot of sense because Returnal's story was different style of story here. Um and I think there's obviously going
to be a lot of discussion around like difficulty and how much more something's been lost. But again, I just think I don't think anything has been lost in terms of
you can choose how hard you want to make this. You really can, you know, and if if a hard Returnal style experience is what you want, this game will give it to >> Yeah. >> you didn't choose anything. Returnal was
meant a lot of people couldn't enjoy it. Now so many people will be able to um because they can sort of dial up or dial down that challenge as they please and I think that's a good thing overall for this type of game, for Housemarque,
what I mean? So um I'm on board with the changes. Um really brilliant game. I loved it. I thought it was incredible. I'm on board for those changes too because I struggle sometimes. So it was
nice to have a game where like I could really see what Housemarque does for the >> Yeah. >> Because I've loved them for a long time. them since um uh Resogun.
>> Yeah. >> And it's been really fun to just see how they were always like fun factor first and addictive gameplay first and just how far that's come, you know? >> Yes, absolutely. Um
yeah, so great game. >> You heard it here, Sarris. We give it right? >> I don't know if we've actually When done the other thing with Lucy or not? >> I don't know. People will see in this
podcast that we're also rating other games. Thumbs up. >> Have you been playing the new latest Diablo expansion? >> I played Lord of Hatred. Got access to it on a test realm that
Blizzard set up for us. And yeah, put about 30 hours into it, level two characters to max level, and played some of the end game and whatever else. I think it's good, man. I You know, I I think there's definitely
sentiment around Diablo IV. I think at the start everyone was like, "This [ __ ] sucks." And like, it had its pros and had its cons, but like obviously just a critical mass of people weren't happy with it.
since then. And I think people have also just kind of given it a bit of a chance on its own terms. I think they kind of were I think, you know, I think a lot of people wanted more from
Diablo IV at launch. Fair enough. But I also think that like, you know, were intending to make a different type of game. Like they were intending to hold true to a vision of a ARPG experience that is more accessible, more
streamlined, more casual, dare I say. And over time that has been proven out as a worthwhile pursuit because, you know, obviously there's Path of Exile sophisticated. And it's just like the really hardcore thing that you want. If
you love that kind of thing, Path of Exile serves you really well, one or then there is that other side of things, where it's looks like, "Well, people click on demons and they want to make it pretty mindless and almost second screen
listen to a podcast while playing Diablo, and that's a great Saturday afternoon, man. That's [ __ ] great day right there. So, you know, Blizzard have gone in that direction. That's not to say they haven't added more depth and
complexity and stuff to the game over time, and it definitely there. And >> Two new classes actually. There's the the Paladin who is incredible and the Warlock who I wasn't personally a fan of but you know, different class fantasies
others judge. But the Paladin though is like an incredible Paladin just like much fun. Uh there's also you know, a 10-hour campaign here which is really beefy, fantastic storytelling all the way
through and a very climactic conclusion to this saga because the last expansion awful. >> Okay. like a shitty 5-hour campaign with terrible storytelling and it was just
it was bad. Whereas this though feels completely different. Way bigger up, way more way better, strong story moments. Just all of it so so good. Um and then systems as well. There's sort of like a war plans thing which basically is like
activities. So instead of like choosing I'm going to do this and that and queue up a bunch of activities and do them all in a row and get rewarded for I won't go into any all the detail but I
there are new end-game systems that add depth and replayability to the end-game. They're not uh revolutionary, they're more about like evolution and and refinement and what have you. Um you
sure. Like that hasn't fundamentally changed but you know, um what's there is good. There's also fishing. I'm not a fan of fishing video games but so you can enjoy yourself. Um
Diablo. >> Correct. Exactly. Like you literally need to pause in moments cuz demons spawn on top of you and they're like like two presses of a button and then you whip the fishing rod back out again
>> [laughter] >> Uh so I had a really nice time with the expansion. I plan to log back into it on launch day to um continue playing it cuz every single season, but like quite a few seasons. And had a really good time
>> your check-ins. >> I just like it's an old it's a it's a stayed connected with. But I and I but I also think it's like it's managed to stay relevant in its own way, right? You know, it's it's
deal, man. Like it's still a you know, we're still playing it, we're still Um and I think that for anyone who's and I think that for anyone who's looking for a relaxed uh RPG ARPG
experience, a a relaxed loot chase, it's in a really good spot. I really I think worth checking out. I think the the best way to play Diablo 4 at this point in my view is you log in, you like obviously get through the
basically it's just, you know, every new season you log in for like a week or character and, you know, like get pretty deep into the end game and get a nice build that feels good and and complete some or all of the season pass.
you're kind of done. But you've had a really good couple of weeks. And it's step away from the game ready to take a break from it, recharge the batteries, come back again, do it next season. That is how many people play Diablo these
>> right way. >> beautifully in that regard. You know, the kind of game that you're meant to just grind endlessly. It's the kind of game you're meant to enjoy little little little spurts like every now and then.
And I think the expansion puts it in the best place it's been to enjoy the game in that context. So, yeah, it's out this week on Tuesday, I think. It's on like all platforms, not Switch, on PlayStation, Xbox, PC, and um
well. So, uh and it's yeah, it's I think it's >> substantial. Two classes and all that story content, too. That's great. it's a meaty expansion offering. Um and the Paladin alone I think is worth the
pre-ordered cuz they had a deal where like you could play the Paladin early if didn't even hesitate. I just immediately heard heard that. Paladins are cool, Paladin is just a brilliant Paladin. So, like
>> Yeah. It's It's good. It's good time. >> Next up, in terms of games that we've >> Yeah. >> Have Have you guys all kind of >> Sure have. >> a few hours in it. Um it was still
embargoed when I was traveling, so I could not whip it out on the plane, but Man, makes me feel young again. >> It feels like a game I would play in 2010 and I loved it with with the most
really enjoying Pragmata. >> Yeah. Something about a good chunky third-person shooter with fun elements. It knows what it is. It doesn't fluff welcome. It's just like
>> Yep. >> a really solid one. I think for me, uh the what I really liked about it is that it felt like there was no filler and every like gameplay system, con- uh concept,
progression, everything just felt rock solid. Every weapon, every use case, every optional thing, all of it to me just felt like really just done with intention. And um I really enjoyed it. I just thought it
was a good simple adventure. Uh and it's the characters. I think the characters are just awesome. I loved Yeah, I love Hue and Diana. I thought they were really cool because the actual
overarching sci-fi story, like predictable. It felt like an old video game, like whatever. Um but I just liked them and I was excited to see them interact and just see them get through this thing. They were very charming. I
think for me it was like the So, there's essentially this whole uh base. Like there's a home base you can continue to go back to to heal, change your equipment, level up. and you find little things to give her like little
her she'll just be like, "Hey, I drew a picture for you. Here you go." And like, I got to the point where I like wanted to earn those pictures. The The pictures don't give you any gameplay
But I just wanted it because I was like, "That's nice. That's cool." It's like a "That's nice. That's cool." It's like a quirky, charming thing. I just It worked, and I hate kids, and I hate video game kids, [laughter] and kids in
>> I think you were playing this game while you were ovulating. I think that's what >> [laughter] >> Jesus Christ. >> That's how it got you. >> It's nice. It's just charming, but the
gameplay. Specifically because again, the whole thing with intention in terms enemy um uh enemy type enemy variety, how that's abilities are trickled out through the whole thing. Um the hacking mini-game.
this?" But they kept introducing good new elements to it throughout the game. case of structure and pacing. Am I Am I off Am I off base on that? >> No. I'm really enjoying it. I think
to your point, it's structure, it's pacing. Crucially, it knows exactly what it is, and it's not trying too hard to stuff itself with concepts or, you know, like even too much backtracking or even just like
that. It's just like a It's just a fun little fun little sci-fi romp. I I charming, and I'm in the same boat as Jake, where it's just like kids and things are usually quite precocious, and I don't love that. Like,
I'm aunt to many, and I love all the kids that I am an auntie to. kids. But typically, when you see kids portrayed in media, especially I mean, or whatever. But, you know, like when
they're always really precocious and annoying. Um but I find that really charming and I agree when she gave me that picture for the first time, I was That's really >> The high five. The high five did it for
>> also just like that it's you know just like it's a guy trying his best. And they're just trying to get through And they're just trying to get through it together and it's not, you know, like
a real horrible uh like oh time to go to therapy session >> Yes. I agree with that. >> to just trying to do it, you know? And I I kind of like that. I feel like that's a nice break from what
we usually get in gaming. Honestly, yeah. Just a fun >> Yeah. She is a little creepy though. Like >> You want to get into that Do you want to get into that Discord? Do you want to
go there, man? Do you want to go there? >> didn't mean creepy in like some like I hey like >> Yeah, I look I personally did not like like her as a character. Like I I didn't actually quite like Hugh cuz I was like
cool. We got like a dad in video games who's not like [ __ ] up and angry and just like sad and you know, like hates his kid or whatever. I was like he's mean? So that's like fresh. I like that, right?
Po- positive fatherhood models in video games is very fresh. Um doing here? Like you're a super smart AI, you can hack robots. But that's the know what I mean? Like oh, you know [ __ ] everything but you don't know
are we now? Like what's going [laughter] on here? You know what I mean? Like I what are we >> what? Logically I agree I agree with you >> Yeah, but I like I also like this is not how children talk or act in any way,
shape or form. There was actually nothing child-like about her except in the most kind of exaggerated sense. And I think that like you could have like given that Hugh was like a really good dad, you know what what And there there
could have been a thing where she was like a good child in a way in a weird describe it, but like it's almost like she just has no real child-like qualities at all that I could It was said it was all just a
very sort of played up rendition of childhood, and I didn't really find that very interesting or like whatever. I just I don't know. I just I found her whole conceit just very conflicted and weird and I I couldn't
I was like yeah, cool. This guy's all right. I like him. I wish he had you know, like play off against I I know I'm like the only one that thinks that.
like, "Oh, she's so cute." Whatever. I was like, "That's fine. That's cool." But uh yeah, just that part That's like the one part of the game that I didn't whereas everything else that I was really on board with. Like I actually
loved the combat. I think it felt fantastic. Fun, interesting, and it got more fun as it went on. And I love the puzzle challenges and like the little sort of the the VR sim stuff were really really great.
>> Yeah, they were like the best combat challenges in the game, really. You of that kind of concept. >> find I would unlock more and I'd be >> Yeah, no for sure. 100%. And then like those red rooms as well, which are like,
>> meant to be pretty challenging, but then >> thing that they did. dude. >> It's like a little battle pass. Like I piss out of [laughter] a battle pass. They were like, "Here you go."
>> Um so I like and yeah, the weapons were really fun to use. Overall progression thing. And and I think it's also very transparent. Like here's the every level. Here's all the collectibles on every level. Here's a thing that lets
where they are. Go and get them. And you can wrap this whole thing up. Like I but I imagine you could probably get the completionist trophy on this in like under 20 hours. Like I'm going to guess 15 to 20 hours
to get like a to a platinum trophy to guess, right? So really enjoyed it. I'm actually surprised by how much people have loved was like, "Cool, this is a fun little game that everyone is going to enjoy on
no, no, this is like my game of the year." Whatever else. I'm like, "Oh, enough, you know what I mean?" So, but it's nice. Uh like Capcom also made the point that it is it was developed largely by younger developers.
>> Interesting. >> And I think that's rad. Like go Capcom giving them a project to work on and backing people. Also, the game director was like art director on Chronicle director on on the Nier series before
director on on the Nier series before that. Um and so that explains that. And >> from the environment design to really good robot designs. Like the as it went cool as [ __ ] man." >> Yeah, yeah.
>> I mean, honestly, between this and Kunitsu Gami, I'm really happy that Capcom is obviously just still willing to be experimental. Come on. >> And Exoprimal, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. But
you know, just have these moments where it's like, "You know, let's just try something new with a smaller team, younger team, less experience, but like >> I just think it's such a sustainable way to look at this industry, you know, like
again, these sort of they could pump everything into Resident Evil and just like just do it all and I don't know, you know, whatever. And they've tried multiplayer stuff and lots of spin-offs and whatever else, but they're you know,
spreading their stuff around. They're they're going back like Onimusha, don't know what I mean? So, like it's just they just it's a really smart, where they're not putting all their eggs in one basket. We as consumers don't get
experiencing new things as we go. They invest time and quality into their know. I I I I suspect Pragmata is a new franchise reckon they'll do a sequel and they'll build it up and man I'm day one on a
I mean? Cuz they can for sure yeah cuz like you can tell that right reasons and putting the time and money into them to make them great. So I don't know I just really respect it. It's a really fantastic publisher and I
just think such a great showcase of how to do this right in this modern era. >> And they're doing a Kami too. Yeah, we had the 20th anniversary of Kami last >> Yeah, yeah, yeah of course. >> You feel real old.
>> Yeah. >> Woof. Well, Pragmata official Friends per Second Seal of Approval. be our new favorite thing we're doing. >> Yeah.
>> [laughter] >> Three thumbs up. They'll be like 10 10 10 10 and then >> Lucy, what have you been playing? >> So I've been playing a bit of Vampire
Crawlers. Very quickly on that one. So um Vampire Crawlers is Vampire Survivors? Well, it's taking all of those assets and turning it into like
a deck buildery dungeon crawlery type thing. Scrolls Arena like type. >> Yes. And so I think I've only put a
couple hours into it. Um really good second screen um as Vampire Survivors uh while mom and I were watching Four in a Bed which is a really fun British reality TV show. You both pulled that face at the exactly moment.
>> No. Uh we're watching a marathon of it. Um you know what? Google it. It's fine. [laughter] Um So it's basically yeah you get like it's all of the characters, all of the abilities, everything from Vampire
Survivors but in a card deck builder each that it that it costs to cast it. I will say I think at the very beginning I think the balance is maybe not quite
there because I'm just finding myself like if you if you play things if something costs zero then one then two mana and you play them in ascending order then you get like it does more damage and stuff and so it's like well
>> Yeah that's just how I'm going to every every time I'm just going to I'm I hate when games do that. >> So it's like >> I think there's something to be done with the balance at the very beginning.
And like I said I only put a couple of hours into it but I think for me it was the Vampire Survivors stuff. It was it like felt nice to be back in hearing all those sound effects and seeing all of those very familiar sprites. They have
>> [snorts] >> Um which I was I was playing kind of on some of the like their voices and then I'm like oh yeah they kind of go um and then you can unlock some of the >> The sound designer the sound designer in
>> I was just playing it on mute and I was like well I guess I'll play it on mute right yeah thanks. Not all games I play on mute but um unfortunately Foreign getting real spicy that
>> Gosh. Very important to listen to that >> Um cuz there's always like a [ __ ] on Foreign Affairs who never like >> [laughter] >> So I think I think in the beginning it
maybe like the balance is a little bit off but I was still very much enjoying different isometric view rather not from the isometric view into more of a first-person and it was just
goes. I need to spend more time with it and luckily I've got a 10 and a half >> There we go. Done again. Wilds. >> Ah, download it.
>> You're not going to do it. >> I don't want to play it on a hand >> I don't want to play it on a hand console. I'll play it on my PC. Um I played The Expanse Osiris Reborn beta.
>> Tell me about this. >> to bloody shreds on the Gamespot preview I did cuz I called it a beta. I was like, "Oh, I'm sorry." learned that lesson long ago. You have to call it beta or Americans just winch.
They just lose their [ __ ] mind >> when they hear this word. Oh, I can't >> You know, no, you you you should stick with Mario. It's it's super cool, >> I know, I know, I love it. >> Like I get I get
>> [clears throat] >> So, The Expanse Osiris So, you said it's a beta, but like I thought it was like a adventure sci-fi game. >> What? >> [laughter]
He's saying [clears throat] they're not mutually exclusive, Jake. >> [laughter] >> It can be a beta of a a sci-fi game. player just like a regular old game. [laughter]
you talking about? >> Um >> That's what they're calling it. Um really, it's just like if you pre-order the game, you get access to an hour of um like a you get a and and they're
calling it a beta beta. Beta. And it's coming out [snorts] next year. Um so, overall, I think it's a bit of a mixed bag. I think going in, you that this is not final. And so, I kind
of question a little bit their choice to put this out at this point because it's not early access, but it's Al Cat and they kind of have done that thing before where they want to have the community shape the game a little bit. Um
but then they've also charged for it, I guess. So, >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. >> So, overall, you play as Yeah. How do I how do I describe it? So,
you're you're on a you're on a ship uh and a bio-hazard takes over and then the only people who survive and then a security firm sweeps in, tries to kill everyone, you're the only loose thread um and then they chase you to another
another station. And so, I will say it's just like it's quite 10 years for a Mass Effect to come along and then sort of like two and three two >> [snorts] >> Exodus and then you have allegedly a new
a new Mass Effect uh in the works. And so, it's quite overt. Obviously, Mass Effect did not invent a lot of sci-fi concepts not it was it wasn't the very first
example, but there are some things that The Expanse does that are just so plucked from Mass Effect. And so, for me muscle memory was kicking in
instead of a power and weapon wheel, it's a list. And so, I kept and it's bumpers it's on the D-pad. And so, I kept like pressing the D-pad and like NOT WHAT I'M TRYING TO DO. I'M TRYING TO GET THIS guy to do something."
I think I I think overall I enjoyed it. I think there was a lot of work still to be done. The combat didn't necessarily feel as um crunchy or whatever as I would like it
to have been. And the conversations were a little bit a little bit Not not too much. If we're talking about the spectrum of Joss Whedonisms and that kind of writing. >> What it Well, is that The Expanse? Is
>> I mean, I mean, there's some in the series. >> Some parts of it Yeah, but like not on the whole, no. No, it's really not. >> But I think that was mostly in the writing of the twin.
Um but again, it's like you have an hour with it and you don't and it's a you know, very conversation dense heavy. I want to see how cuz apparently like the it. So, I want to see more of that. But the thing that I really did like about
um is that your companions can like pick off things in the environment if you tell them to. And so, instead of tell them to. And so, instead of you um you know, just focus firing on
"Hey, there's a little gas pipe or something over there. Wouldn't it be fun out a big thing of enemies at once. And so, I did actually quite like that. But quite busy. So, it was kind of hard for me to
like I was catching most of them sort of at the end of every uh encounter. Um but yeah, overall, I'm intrigued to see where it goes. I liked The Expanse TV show a lot. I haven't read the book.
Uh there was a reference to Holden that I caught um over like a tannoy in the game at one point. So, Into it. Mixed.
>> Oh, Holden in the uh the main guy. >> the books in the show. >> Oh, okay, cool. Nice. A lot of thoughts about the casting of no time to no time to delve into that now.
We know we know. We don't have to. >> That show is over. It's just it's it's which is a shame. Um but really fantastic show and I'm I mean, look, it's a high bar to hit for a show like for this game because the thing is
For anyone who doesn't know, The Expanse is very Mass Effect coded, right? It has lots of things like a It basically is Mass Effect. we'll say it's the writers cuz I didn't I also didn't realize it was two writers
under one pen name. One of them tweeted like, "You can say One of them tweeted like, "You can say that I've pulled from XYZ, but game is you need to stop thinking that Mass Effect invented sci-fi." And so, it's
from the same cloth because they obviously share a lot of inspirations. it's just like it's extra funny that they've gone for companion system. >> Well, that's the thing, right? This is
this full circle, this kind of recursive thing where it's like, you know, Mass Effect." And then they're making an Expanse game that's Mass Effect, you challenge is like it's a very high bar to hit in terms of writing, you know,
because it's a they're really great It's a great story, The Expanse story. It's Effect in terms of like the Mass Effect relays and what that means, explore space exploration technology, that sort of stuff. But um but yeah, like it
characters and great story moments, great factions, and you know, to to really nail that would be tough, I think, cuz your audience is going in expecting a level of writing that is a
high bar to hit in the world of video games. Like 95% of video games are not well-written, do you know what I mean? So, uh fingers crossed they can find a haven't I haven't played this yet myself, so I'm going to check it out,
but I'm definitely rooting for them. Would love to have a great Expanse game >> Yeah. >> So. Um Cool, that's exciting. And uh is that
>> Uh was one of them Titanium Core? >> Titanium Core. I'll talk about it very quickly, then we'll throw it to the interview. But Thompson, who's the creator of Titanium Core. He also worked on Consume Me. Um
Titanium Core is that game if months ago, you remember when Chris Plante of the year." And he was a tease, and I immediately
me what that game was." And it was Titanium Core. Titanium Core is a match-three strategy absurd
>> Roblox. >> [laughter] >> I mean the con- the conceit of the story is
are walking through forest and you find yourself the queen of the fairies. You are the queen of the fairies and uh they are going to war and uh you have to you can shape the
battlefield uh by moving things tiles around, but it's match three. So, if you match three pieces of wheat, then you get food. And other way around. >> Yeah.
>> Um is when you can use those things that you have gathered by matching uh to feed your army or to create your army. And then there is a period where you just you just sit back. It's an auto
happen. >> Yes. And then as you progress >> there will be things like um there'll be catapults, there'll be boats, there will be a dragon that will follow you around. Uh there will be um
a volcano that volcanoes that will erupt and ruin all the tiles around them. So, it is strategy on strategy because at the beginning you get to move you can um you can move the castle around anywhere.
You can move the court around uh one tile at a time. So, basically like um >> move it Yeah, because I was like, "No, the queen can go there." Um
Uh so, it's a basically moving the king in chess um to get in like If if you are surrounded by water, for example, like certain enemies can't go and hit you or hills
Um And then surrounding that is a really surreal narrative about these people at the court and their daily lives and
truth from you about what you're doing, why you're about what you're doing, why you're there, where you even are. Um and all of character dialogue? >> And all of this is punctuated by little
>> And all of this is punctuated by little comic um panels that pop up with like comic um panels that pop up with like like playing golf or baseball or um like a glass of wine that will fill up and stuff. And it's
>> like little like jaunty guitar music and little like a really >> Okay. >> I find myself thinking about it a lot. It's really funny. Like there is a joke
in there about um being like the tool tip talks to you. Um to give you and then and then it's like, "Well, I'm a secular >> [laughter] >> I I fear no God.
>> It's just yeah, it's just really well written. It's really It's really challenging. I find myself getting like being an absolute idiot um and just I >> I felt cuz the the the the thing about
board up for a battle." And you're like, "Well, I and hills block the catapults from attacking you." And rivers stop uh troops from crossing them so they can't And they're like, "Well, that all sounds pretty simple." But the only way you can
position them is through match three. So, if you want to have like a hill next to you, you have to have broken down all the tiles that lead to that hill being next to you without also accidentally breaking the hill. You know what I mean?
two other hills. So, that's what's hard about it. The idea that you need to position a battlefield while doing these match three activities. So, it actually very differently, almost like a Rubik's Cube because, you know, with match
many matches as possible. Quick, quick, quick, let's go. Whereas, like with a Rubik's Cube, you're sort of having to move one piece from there to there. And that I need to do to be able to get that to happen?" So, that creates a naturally
three formula. >> with the time mechanic, too, because >> Yes. >> takes a little bit of time. But if you >> takes a little bit of time. But if you do one move and others cascade and you
do other moves as part of that one go, then you get time back. >> you are really skilled and you can do what Ralph was saying, like look and then you can you can gather as many
uh pieces of food or water or whatever as you like and just actually I've gotten into multiple battles just not being very smart at all and not having soldiers.
>> bum time. But it's great game. And when you do succeed, oh my god. That was that that the dragon is the one that you come up against at the end of the demo. Um and yeah, that is a whole a whole thing. And
god. Oh my god." >> Are you like succeeding in getting Are you just hooked on the gameplay or is the story what's what's keeping you going? Like is it is it both? >> I mean, the story is so well written and
intriguing. What I mean, not to spoil the interview a little bit, but listen to hit AP's answer about how he feels about meals of the day as it pertains to the gameplay. That was fascinating. And like as I've
to him, I was like, "Oh, yeah, wow. This is really set up in a very interesting way." And this is also just like like >> There's Oh.
you take of just some of the ridiculous >> I like it. >> The music is also great. It's this kind of like shoegazy sort of like dreamy guitar that just perfectly sit like
that he's going for. Um I I love it so far. Like I'm I'm slowly in between other things and it's because it's very snackable as well. Like you can literally just log on and play for you know a few rounds of it and
like, "Hey, this match three's going really well." and my board's looking But if you're like, "Ah, I kind of [ __ ] this up. Well, I'll just I'll installed on like a Steam Deck. It's best played there. Um very as I said
snackable but also very It's not snackable in a like a sort of just do it and then forget about it. It's like you're getting these little nuggets like reading a a chapter of a book and then it kind of you put it
know when you're thinking about the next chance to return to it. So, it's it feels very nourishing. I guess it's probably a good way to describe it. >> It's great. >> Wow. All right, I'm interested now.
guy to talk to. >> Yeah. So, >> So, you'll enjoy the interview. >> And here it is. Roll Roll the tape. >> AP Thompson. Enjoy. >> [music]
for you that has has like it's been on me for a while because how do you describe Titanium Core? Cuz I've tried, your publisher has tried, every email I get about it tries, but how do you
describe that game? >> Uh that is a very good question cuz I've >> [laughter] >> I think that uh uh for a while I would basically try to give people a mechanical overview of it.
three, but all the tiles are kind of like pieces of a little battlefield. They're like terrain and you get resources and then eventually it turns into a tower defense game and then you spend all those resources on guys and
uh while and then I eventually discovered that there was a pretty obvious correlation between if I just describe the game mechanically and whether the
person I had described it to would then proceed to skip all the text. >> Oh, yeah. Uh maybe I should just not say anything and that seemed to work a lot better. So, I kind of gave up on describing the
game after a certain point. But, I don't know. More recently I've been saying things like it's a very difficult game to describe because it's got a lot of got a little bit of match three. It's got a little bit of tower defense. It's
got a little bit of rogue-like structure going on. It's got a whole lot of narrative that's kind of weird and surreal and magical and it has a in general irreverent tone that will occasionally veer into the sincere.
And I don't know. That's Titanium Core. >> I think the thing for me is that like you everyone knows how to play a match three game. How did you start to add those levels of complexity? Was it all did you always knew know that you were
all these other elements to it or was it just something that kind of came to you >> Well, the original prototype for the game which was a a game jam game that is actually available publicly or has been for like quite a while.
tower defense cuz that that was really the the seed of the idea at least initially was creating a match three grid that then turns into a little tower defense battlefield. Uh I think there was a there was a few
months between when I made the original game jam prototype and started working on it as a larger project. But, once I kind of figured out a with it, that's when it was like, oh yeah, full speed ahead. I'm just going
just, I don't know, keep throwing ideas into this thing. And I really love the vibe. Listeners at home, we're also dealing with some some lag from Lucy. So, if we
talk over each other, I apologize. Um but, yeah, just the overall vibe of it, man. I don't know. Like, that was uh that's what I'm really gelling with the most. I'm only I'm very early on in the game, but there's just a sort of weird
surrealist sort of ephemeral thing going on that is Like, when the battle is over, it's nice to return to that court and just kind of feel the weirdos that you're hanging out
like the music. I just I don't know, man. I really dig it. I wondered like how that coalesced for you. Were you just like feeling different things and have like a very clear vision for how this should feel at court?
>> Uh I didn't have the clear vision initially. I think the very first like into the game, they were not actually really separated from the battle system. across narrative events while you were playing through a run. And I think it
was Eventually, I kind of came up with like, oh, why don't we treat this more like a routine? Why don't we treat this a little bit more like you have some narrative for breakfast, and then you have some mechanics for lunch, and then
you maybe if you complete a run, you have some narrative and puzzle solving have some narrative and puzzle solving for dinner, right? But, uh I think maybe maybe the inspiration for doing that was the context in which a lot of this was
being developed, which was uh I kind of started working on a lot of this stuff in early 2020, which if folks remember various things that happened historically in 2020, I don't know. It was like a time of like
building a routine. I don't know, cuz there was kind of nothing else to do and I think there was this sense that like oh yeah, like eating breakfast in the morning feels like a very important part of the rhythm of going through the day.
the morning. >> I mean in terms of that, you know, finding a routine during COVID, I mean when were you starting to work on Consum Me and how did you balance, you know, working on Titanium Core, Consum Me and
doing? Cuz was it Did you want to spend more time on one nice irreverent humor versus, you know, the the quite serious topics that Consum Me
delves into? >> Uh well, to answer your first question, I started working on Consum Me in 2018 um and I didn't start working on Titanium Core really full-time until around 2020. And I'd always had side
projects kind of during that two-year gap while Consum Me during that two-year gap while Consum Me was my main project. Um went back and forth a lot. I think that it was actually pretty refreshing to be
like when I got uh sick of working on Consum Me, I could bit and then when I got sick of working on Titanium Core, I could go work on Consum Me for a little bit. Although it was really the structure was set up such
that Consum Me occupied most of my time and Titanium Core was very much a side project. It was kind of like four weeks of Consum Me followed by one week of Titanium Core generally. Uh But yeah, I don't know. It was like they
were in different phases of development at least initially, but then towards the end they were kind of like neck and neck for who's going to finish first. So, at was kind of in a difficult part of development, which is sort of the
post-game jam phase where it really often feels like you're doing tons of work and not really making much progress. Yeah, Titanium Core was really period. Uh But, you know, sometimes I'd have a week
where Titanium Core was not going well. I like barked up the wrong tree or least I get to go work on Consume Me on Monday." >> And I mean, in terms of barking up the wrong tree, what kind of things did you
kind of cuz there's a lot in this game and I and I love every single, you know, against whether it's the narrative or different aspects to gameplay. It's like, what were the ideas that didn't work and that didn't coalesce?
>> Oh, yeah. I had this whole plan when I first developed it where it was going to be four chapters and only the first chapter would happen in Titanium Heart and then every other chapter would be like a different court and it would
style to it. Uh I I won't mention any spoilers. One of those chapters in a certain form did end up in the final game, but a lot of the others they didn't because they were like huge mechanical departures from I
guess the original vision in ways that required me to do a lot of work to make the system able to handle what is effectively two different games and it took me kind of almost a year to realize [laughter] that that was not the correct
approach and that I should A, limit the scope and B, if I was going to add variety to the gameplay, do it in ways that did not make working on this thing kind of a nightmare. So, I mean, that that's kind of what I was doing in
least. >> Well, it seems like a lot of it worked because this thing started winning awards before it was even out. know, you actually won you for your work on
Shamus McNally Grand Prize and obviously Titanium Heart won the award the following year and that one obviously is is your own solo project. Um
Yeah, like how this cuz how does it work that a game gets nominated for an award deal with that? Cuz I've never heard of that before. >> Uh well, it helps that it is the IGF and the IGF has been doing that for a long
the IGF has been doing that for a long time. Uh it has always accepted entries there are actually plenty of prominent prominent indie games that have won the IGF prior to being released. Like Fez is a big example of this where Fez won, I
a big example of this where Fez won, I think, in like 2007 for visual art. And >> Okay. >> in 2012 when it won the Seumas McNally Grand Prize and actually came out. Uh although they have since added a rule
basically saying if you get nominated for an award, that game is no longer eligible to submit for, you know, uh later in later years. But I mean, other examples of this are like uh Outer Wilds won the Grand Prize, I think, back in
2016. That game did not come out until Was it know, >> 2018, yeah. uh award ceremony.
>> Yeah. And were you at all surprised by that Or like while you were making it, you're like, "You know what? I'm making a [ __ ] good game here, man. People going to love this shit."
were definitely moments over the course of development where I'm very am in the going to love this. People are going to love this. But at the same time, I'm also like staring at it all the time. So, it could be, you know, I can
don't know. It's kind of lost all meaning to me. >> Yeah. >> I've no I'm incapable of experiencing it fresh. Have no idea if this is actually going to work for anyone else. So, yeah,
I wasn't sure what was going to happen. Like I knew that I I thought it was cool and I enjoyed a lot of the premise premises behind it. Uh I done a bunch of play testing and it's always sort of hard to gauge with in-person play tests
whether, you know, how much people actually like it cuz, you know, they're going to usually be that critical to your face generally. [laughter] for play testing I'd pay more attention to like, what are they doing? What is
they look like while they're playing it? And not necessarily to um how much they tell me they like it. So, yeah, it's really it's really gratifying that uh people enjoyed it as much as they did.
have never gravitated towards a a bunch of Titanium Core, I wouldn't game." because there's so much more to it. Um but this isn't the first time
made a game that's a match-three. Like, what is Why do you like match-three so Yeah, what is it about it? >> I think it's a great ingredient. I think uh I don't know, sometimes you got chefs and they're just like, "I love eggs.
Eggs are great. Let's have a Let's have an entire menu of eggs." or I don't know, maybe they do that with other ingredients. But, I think uh it's it's very flexible. You can do a lot of things with it.
fundamentally engaging to the human mind. It's like activating our pattern matching uh capabilities and letting us exercise them and there's just something very meditative and enjoyable about finding
little patterns and making little matches and watching things go, right? And I guess the other half of this is that uh I did a lot of, I guess, research or like design around procedural generation
like years ago like trying to generate levels or or other things, right? And uh I found it was generally hard to beat a match-three as a level generator just by how simple it was and, you know, how by its very
nature it generates kind of interesting levels, right? It's like what's one way much of the same stuff. Well, that's just kind of match threes don't let that happen. So, you kind of always end up with something that's got variety in it.
uh if you just start thinking about like, okay, well, what might these tiles then represent if I've thought of them as a level, then it's very easy to come uh yeah. >> Have you considered selling extra lives
during playthroughs for people who get stuck? >> Yeah, so match three, you know, they get stuck and they run out of lives and then then, you know, could be an idea.
that before? >> I'm not sure. I think we should look >> Could be a goer. >> Could be an untapped market there for >> untapped, I think, is the right word. I think exactly right.
>> [laughter] >> Um I I'm actually very curious um about career prior to this is like, you know, have you all How long have you been making games for? And yeah, you know, like what drew you to this career and
what what are you sort of taking from it now in terms of cuz it it's a it's a a game on your own like this. It takes a certain type of like engagement. So, to this profession? >> Uh I think there there are a lot of
things kind of going on. I could talk a little bit about uh how I got first introduced to game development was kind of as part of a summer camp when I was a kid. I don't remember how old I was exactly, somewhere between 6 and 8, but
uh it was kind of they ostensibly we were learning programming and we were making video games, although at least when I first attended the camp, it was really more of the counselor was guiding our hands on the keyboard to show us how
to like make a very simple breakout clone, which uh uh I I called Space Balls and I did not know about the Mel Brooks movie at the time. Space Balls just [laughter] seemed like a very good name for a Breakout clone. Um and Mr.
Brooks has yet yet to, you know, take any legal action. I have to assume it has his blessing, so I think it's all good there, but um as to I don't know, good there, but um as to I don't know, what what draws me to development now is
actually I think I think you touched on it a little bit in the question is that there are so many different artistic disciplines that go into it. And I just think it is really fun to kind of like learn all those and
with them, right? I feel like I've always uh always uh been doing things uh since I was a kid like creatively, like writing or drawing or like doing music.
Um and I was always I don't know, I liked programming as well. I think it's kind of like a little little puzzly activity and those are always pretty enjoyable. And so games allow me to do kind of all of that stuff at the same
perfect. I like it. >> In terms of the music, so all the all the guitar in the game is you, right? >> So are you did you learn guitar to put into your game or did you
guitar to put in >> Uh so I I learned guitar while I was making Titanium Core. I basically kind of learned in 2020. Uh it was like sort of the the deepest darkest part of the pandemic and my cat had just died. And
so I was like pretty bummed. Um and I had had a guitar already from attempting to learn in the past, although not particularly successfully. And I was just kind of like I guess I
have a lot of free time right now. I will pick this up and see what we can do with it. Uh I had already been I I've made music for my games previously, although they've always just been like uh,
you know, basic doing basic MIDI tracking in like uh, in Garage Band or Ableton. Uh, never really in recording my own instruments, but uh, I picked up goal here is to learn to play this well enough to write songs. Uh, and
if I do that, then maybe I could use some of those songs in this game that I am making. Uh, and that could be the plan for what I do for music, and I guess it just kind of worked out like that. Although, not 100% like that,
to do what Mugenics did, which was have a background, and then when you get to the boss fight, tada, there's lyrics. Now it
>> Yeah, right. >> Um, that that didn't work out for me, with lyrics, it ended up like at least 3 minutes long, and the battles in Titan was not going to fly. But, people who have played the game uh,
a certain amount may have found that I found another use for those songs, so. >> Did you do the vocals? >> Mhm. So, that's that's that's exciting. Okay, great.
the music is a real standout. I don't know I I actually really like that sort of genre of guitar anyway. Like it's sort of shoegazy kind of style, and I the court, and I get to hear it, I really love it, so.
thing. >> Right. >> So, this is a this is a Boss DD-20 delay pedal. >> I don't know very much about shoegaze, but every time I've been like Instagram
essential shoegaze pedals, this one's always there. So, I'm like, this might just be a shoegaze pedal. I don't know. >> Okay, got it. Yeah, well I actually really like that genre and so when I was when I was listening to it it just yeah,
as I said I love getting back to the court and hearing that sound and whole package. I just I think it's so interesting cuz yeah, I think from an audience perspective you know, it is weird to look at cuz you're like it's
got weird baseball imagery alongside fantasy castles alongside these kind of smooshy, you know, chances drinking at at the court's table and whatever but then like you kind of just go okay, let's just have a crack at this and as I
sort of sunk into it I was very won over by yeah, it's sort of weirdness and how surprising it is and yeah, just the overall feeling of of that's what I take away most from it just a unique feeling. It's it's less
about those mechanics. I actually kind of live for the return to court when the battle is done, you know, and that's just keeping me going. So I am having a great time and I'm definitely planning on playing a lot more of it. So it's out
we're recording this on it's out tomorrow. >> Mhm, yep, it's out tomorrow. >> Yeah, and are you doing any kind of I don't know special launch event activity stuff or
traveler is publishing, correct? >> Mhm. Uh I don't know if we have a if you mean like a like a launch party or like a in person launch party. Not doing that cuz I have a nasty cold right now, so
>> [laughter] >> Uh I don't know, maybe once I maybe once >> And I mean what is next for you? You know, Consumable came out last year, have other projects that you've been tinkering on or are you just taking a
>> Uh well, technically I've got ports that are on the horizon for both of these are on the horizon for both of these games. Consumable I got to get back on that cuz I made a unspecified port already that now
I just have to actually get out the door. Uh Got to start doing some of that But I do have another I do have a prototype. I started working on it over the Christmas like holiday period and then have not
been very busy getting ready for launch, but I'm >> Is titanium cord going to come to mobile by the way? >> I hope so. It was originally a mobile game that was the original orientation
for it was portrait and that is is still there. It's still functional and still maintained and I play it on my phone all the time. So very excited about letting other people play it on their phones. When that's
going to happen, I'm not sure, but >> Nice. Okay, cool. Excellent. Well, thank the lag, but it was lovely to speak to you. We are having such a fun time with >> Yeah. I guess one thing before we go.
I've had a bunch of interviews lined up for this week and an idea I had at least before the week started was to come up with a list of I guess small stories or fun facts and give one out to each interview and give
not give it out to anyone else, right? So give you a unique little fun fact >> Yes, cool. >> Give it. Give it. the one that I kind of chose here is that you may have noticed on the title
screen there is a clock. So that clock is based on a clock a real clock that you can find in Sleepy Hollow, New York. You might recognize that name because that is in fact Sleepy Hollow from The
you're familiar with the Headless Horseman, that's where that guy comes So yeah, I think that's a fun little fact. It's it's on the title screen mostly because I liked it, but I also feel like it fits some of the themes of
the game nicely, but yeah. >> I love that. much, man. Really do appreciate your time. Fantastic talking to you, and good pops off. It certainly deserves to. >> Thank you.
show intel. The segment where we talk about some stuff that isn't a video game go first, class? >> I'll go. Tell time. >> Okay, first of all, you there in the >> Continuing continuing our Nolan rewatch.
I watched uh Dunkirk. >> Mhm. interesting story without any characters. >> Yeah. >> Uh and incredible cinematography. Many
parts of it I enjoyed, but ultimately I was like, "No, I just really need some I watched Tenet. Oh my god. Now, listen. I really went into Tenet being like, "I bet you I was wrong about Tenet. I bet you I was wrong. I'm going to go in
know what? Actually, I was a dumbass. Tenet's [ __ ] great film. Tenet is so >> So awful. >> I feel vindicated. I don't like it. >> I feel vindicated. I don't like it. >> It's [ __ ] awful. It's so unbeli-
Everything about it is terrible. Everything about it is awful. I hated it so much. I just I couldn't believe it. I was just like, I couldn't believe it. was just like, I couldn't believe it. Anyway, then we watched Highlander.
>> I haven't watched [groaning] Highlander since I was like a [ __ ] kid or >> Yeah, it's still good. >> believe how good it was. The know if you've like really paid attention to it. Some of the
transitions, I was like yelling. I was like, "What is this movie, man? How are ONE KNOWS how to use a camera like that in the modern era. It's insane, right?" Um the Queen soundtrack, [ __ ] Clancy Brown as the villain.
>> He's so good in it. >> He's so good. >> [laughter] >> laugh that he does all the time. It's just the best. Sean Connery in his ridiculous outfit. Like the whole
>> the Spaniard Sean Connery and the [ __ ] Scottish Christopher Lambert. Like but honestly though, just an incredibly watchable film full of great incredibly watchable film full of great cinematography and set pieces and just
the whole thing was just a really really great movie. And it wasn't like enjoyed Highlander, don't get me wrong, but you just you actually just appreciate it as a film. Because of like how well made it was. And the contrast
[laughter] like >> the same night? was awesome. >> then Highlander and we just like it was [laughter] like I just I can't it was like crawling through the desert and
just Tenet was the desert and I was just dying of thirst and then all of a sudden >> [laughter] >> oh my god, it was amazing. So >> I'm so excited for this Henry Cavill Highlander movie. Just for like a new
Highlander again. >> I agree, but it gets people to watch the >> I really wish that I'm going to assume that um Henry Cavill is playing Connor >> But I would love to have seen Henry Cavill play the bad guy. I forget his
>> Oh yeah. Yeah. >> Cuz like he could have just he would has that kind of darkness that he could if he could tap into that, he'd be a great villain. But yeah, he's going to be Connor MacLeod and um
well to see I wonder I hope they don't [ __ ] with it too much. I just I don't know. It has to keep that B quality and it has to keep the soundtrack, man. The I'm blue. >> Who wants to live
>> [laughter] >> Oh, so >> good. Anyway, that was that's me. >> Uh I'll go. I watched uh a show called DTF Saint Louis. >> Oh, the Jason Bateman
>> Yeah, so it's it's really good. It's got Jason Bateman, uh David Harbour, and Linda Cardellini in this kind of like trio leads. It's also got Richard Jenkins, who I also think is
great and really underrated. But um it's essentially it's like an HBO show. It like feels very like edgy and it's like very mature and dark. But it without spoiling it, it's kind of like a it's just like a juicy drama with
like a it's just like a juicy drama with like cheating and and thruples and and scandal and stuff like that. It's very like a it's like a sexual charge. >> DTF St. Louis. >> Is DTF like as in the way we used to use
changed over the years like the word goon has changed like it's the same >> It's the same meaning. Okay. >> a it's like a it's like an app. It's >> And they're all using it in this city and it's like it's very weird and it had
moments throughout. And also I think it was like David Harbour at >> it literally came out as um the album did I think. Lily Allen's. Who got tickets to go see that show. >> Okay.
>> There you go. >> So the thing was the show kind of bummer. Why did I watch that? Like it was just kind of like it after after it was said and done cuz it's also centered around like a murder mystery who done it
as well. I kind of buried that lead. But uh yeah, the way the conclusion kind of really left me like I don't know. I don't know why I watched invested in the characters and I actually started to like feel for some
of the characters despite them all being kind of like weird or despicable or I don't know. I I don't totally I really did because I've been I've been gaming
>> Speaking of uh Linda Cardellini, did you ever watch uh Bloodline? Did anyone ever >> No. >> Uh dude, you should watch this show. [ __ ] guy from Friday Night Lights, the coach. What's his name? Kyle
>> Kyle Chandler as the lead. >> heard this show was good. Yeah. >> Mendelsohn as like the crazy brother. And like honestly, it is an incredible after like three seasons because the Florida government like pulled funding
Um cuz it was being shot in the Florida Keys. But like man, incredible >> Oh, yeah. It's like It's like an early Netflix show. of the shows that like made its burn on. Yeah, yeah. So anyway, sorry, at least
>> I went to the theater. I went to the London's West End. >> West End. >> I did. I saw Cynthia Erivo in her one-woman Dracula play where she plays every role, like 20-something roles.
So, remember how I saw Dorian Gray last year with um >> Yeah, Sarah Snook. Um who was incredible. Uh so they did another one, but this time with Dracula. And Cynthia Erivo plays Dracula. And
they do the same thing where they have all of the screens. She puts on different like wigs and costumes and does accents. Um does accents. Um yeah, just it it's it's something like
way way more lines than Dorian Gray, which I find incredible because Dorian Gray was I thought very wordy. But no, Cynthia Erivo yeah, wow. What a powerhouse. Like just
no memorizing it all, memorizing every um mark, every like being able to slip into the accents. There was one Irish accent that it would could we could have left that one. Um Cynthia. But like yeah.
>> Was it It wasn't a musical? It was all >> She did She does sing. Like I don't know think it She sings like a little like a little Dracula? >> I was going to try and ad-lib one then
>> No, don't, please. >> We've already We've already sung Queen on this podcast. No, but she um Her voice was spectacular. My god. Like
whatever and it's like I think it's very different when you are watching a like a recording that's then gone through post or whatever, but like hearing her live, like her voice is so powerful and so clear. It was stunning.
But um yeah, really enjoyed it. Um and that's the what we did on my London. So, trying to yeah, go to the I got got Phantom of the Opera tickets for Ooh. >> Ooh, nice. Oh, I went I went to uh I saw
uh I went to Radio City and I saw La La Land in concert with an orchestra conducted by Justin Hurwitz who uh conduct like who composed the music. >> Um and I am like a like a unabashed La La Land person. I I understand why
people don't like it. Absolutely totally understand why people don't like it, but like I think it's like one of the best [ __ ] things ever. I It's great. I love the music. I love the story. Everything about it. Um so, it was
really cool to hear that music uh live. >> I did that for The Batman a couple years >> [laughter] >> No way. >> Yeah, that's what I did. >> I want to do like the Lord of the Rings
cuz it came to San Francisco and it was like I think it's actually like this week. I'm like >> [snorts] >> Shout out to the theater.
The theater. Sorry. Well, Don't make a Listen. >> All right. Well, with that, I think uh I think that about wraps it up. >> Right? That's it. What are you guys What are you guys cooking on?
uh something on the embargo which I can't talk about just yet. Uh and then after that, I'm pretty chill I for the next little while. There There are games coming out next month. I think the first one is going to be
>> Yes. >> Mixtape is the next one. >> Um so, I haven't got code for that yet, but super excited. After that is going to be Zero Parade for Dead Spies, then after that is Batman, then after that is
>> That's like That is like the most Lucy ass month of games, [snorts] I think on record ever. >> Just cuz it's a the eclectic mix, you my favorite games of all time. So, you got 007.
>> I love that you got Batman. Love Batman. I like you just said I want to see Batman in concert. Um Zero Parade is also big. big. >> It is. It's going to be a good month.
So, um but I haven't started on any of it yet cuz I said no codes through, but So, yeah. >> You will be busy. So, be sure to keep it >> I don't know if you are actually I mean the frames per second
>> Yeah. >> Uh thank you guys very much for places, clicking the like button. We really appreciate it. Uh thank you for weeks, but for now, tie your shoes and go to bed.