How to Improve Your Memory & Cognitive Function at Any Age

[00:01] mistakes. Just seeing something many times doesn't mean you'll remember it times, of course, you know all the features, but then when you quiz people and test them, and I do this in my class, people aren't sure. Is the bite

[00:14] on the left or the right hand side? Is there a stem or a leaf? The best way to remember something is to again failures. I'll have you draw it without looking at it and you struggling. Wait, is it on the left or right? And is it stem or a

[00:26] all of these things. Then when you look at the logo again, you're going to engage in better learning than if you hadn't done that errorful kind of trial >> Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast where we discuss [music] science and

[00:39] science-based tools for everyday life. [music] of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

[00:51] today is Dr. Alan Castell. Dr. Alan Castell is a professor of psychology at Angeles. He is one of the world's foremost experts on human memory and cognitive aging. Today we discuss what determines if we remember something like

[01:06] a name or an event or how to do something. And we discuss how to improve our ability to remember information of all kinds at any age. We also discuss how anytime we plan or imagine something about our future, we are always building

[01:19] that on memories of our past and what that means for our ability to come up with new ideas and plans for our lives. And we discuss how our memory changes across the lifespan and why some people retain exceptional cognitive abilities

[01:32] well into their 80s and 90s and even beyond and what any of us can do to improve our chances of maintaining or even getting better at memory as we age. memory decline is an inevitable consequence of getting older, Dr.

[01:46] Castell explains research that tells us the story is far more nuanced and more optimistic. In fact, we cover one of the more powerful and perhaps surprising influences on our rate of cognitive aging, which is your beliefs about aging

[01:59] itself. And finally, we discuss so-called superagers, which is the name performance rivals that of people decades younger. He explains which super aer protocols are accessible to anyone and how they can be incorporated into

[02:14] everyday life to benefit our mental and our physical health. Before we begin, is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools

[02:29] to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Dr. Alan Castell. Dr. Alan Castell, >> Thank you. Nice to be here. >> You're going to tell us how to build up

[02:43] and keep our memory. But let's start by asking what is memory? Or rather, how do asking what is memory? Or rather, how do you conceptualize memory from the experience things, let's call it passively, or we try to remember certain

[03:00] things. What determines what information we hold on to, how long, and so on? It's a great question and memory is really a mental representation of the past and by its very nature it's reconstructive. It's never always accurate and I think

[03:13] that's why it's so mysterious and fascinating that you and I can see the same event and then remember it differently a week or a day later. Um, and it starts kind of almost at the sensory level and sometimes our mind

[03:26] plays tricks on us. And that's how I got interested in this field that how can I think I know something and yet not know it as well as I do. And this is something that's called metacognition or awareness of our own cognition. And as a

[03:40] personal anecdote when you know I was in fifth or sixth grade I had one line in the play The Wizard of Oz. It's a line I practiced again and again. Listen everyone, there's a cyclone on the way. Hurry and get into the cellar. And of

[03:52] course on opening night, listen everyone, there's a seller on the way. >> Nice. >> And I was thinking, how did I manage of the audience probably didn't even notice. But that to me was an early

[04:06] exposure to memory is not always kind of a function of what you do with the information. And then, you know, in high school, I had another exposure to memory where I just memorized a lot of things. And that got me pretty far in algebra

[04:18] and chemistry. In fact, I almost memorized the entire periodic table. But this was using pneummonics, you know, little rhymes or songs. And I realized really didn't have a strong understanding of chemistry, even though

[04:33] I could use all these terms. And thankfully, I took an introductory psychology class and I realized people studied learning and memory and kind of false memories and why memory can and cannot be accurate. And I I was hooked.

[04:45] I found that so fascinating and I still do today. I'm both impressed and um intrigued to ask more about memorization of the periodic table. Uh first question of the periodic table. Uh first question is about pneumonics and ways that we um

[05:01] try and batch and learn information by pairing it to other things. Trying to remember a room full of people's names and you know you uh could pair the first letter of their name with a fruit or what you know people do these things. To

[05:13] me, that seems like a very inefficient way to learn because you're adding more information that you need to store away. So, the first question is, is that the information? >> I think it's almost a workaround. And

[05:27] that's the first kind of problem people say is I can't remember names. And by their nature, names used to be descriptive of person's occupation. Someone's a baker, we call them Mr. Baker. But that's of course evolved with

[05:39] Baker. But that's of course evolved with time. and names. You know, I tell people that's probably a natural forgetting, but you remember if you had an if you can trust them, that's probably

[05:52] more important. So then to engage our kind of knowledge base so that we can remember names, we need to make this arbitrary link. And so I tell people my last name is Pastel, Castell, you know, Castell rhymes with pastel and my

[06:05] grandfather used pastels, let's say. And so people can then make this link. But like you say, that's effortful. It takes time. It takes time away from kind of the essence of something else we could talk about. And it also leads to these

[06:17] people say, "Oh, I remember his name was Pastel." When in fact, it's Castell. So I think we have to almost trick our memory into remembering things that might be somewhat arbitrary. And that becomes more pronounced as we get older.

[06:31] You know, there's more Davids, there's more Andrews, and it's just more interference. And so to get around that, we have to, you know, use deliberate practice, retrieval practice, use the name several times. But I tell my

[06:45] students whose names I often forget, that I'll still remember topics we've talked about or, you know, you know, how they felt about something. And I think just remembering a name >> to remember chemistry or uh some other

[06:59] >> to remember chemistry or uh some other subject that involves nomenclature. I uh not everyday terms unless you're a chemist but to really understand the deeper mechanics of that thing and remember that what are some better tools

[07:13] I want to say and I'm not a memory researcher that it might be helpful to researcher that it might be helpful to think in terms of verbs not labels so rather than thinking about a particular element just in terms of its name but

[07:25] think about how it interacts with something else or um how it gives or conditions. >> Absolutely. I think that's what you're looking for is deeper learning, deeper semantic learning. And this has been

[07:37] referred to as levels of processing. So I was working at a very low level of processing when I'm, you know, making up happy Henry, you know, for hydrogen and helium. Um, but if you can start to visualize things or interact with them

[07:49] and that's why we want to have, you know, chemistry labs or places where I found chemistry very abstract. I think that's why I didn't really engage with something that we were interacting with every day. I was making these memory

[08:02] grandparents remembering and forgetting things and I thought, you know, how does that happen? And the brain is so complex that I don't think we'll ever completely understand, you know, why this me memory error might happen. But I think this

[08:16] awareness um is really important and a lot of good learning happens through making mistakes. Um you know, I you know, I play piano and I, you know, mistake, I'm going to have to work on this. Um and I see that with my

[08:29] children. And you learn a lot by making these mistakes. And I think that That just seeing something many times doesn't mean you'll remember it well. And this is a classic demonstration that, you know, you've seen a penny many

[08:42] times. You don't remember all the features on the penny. I've updated that to the Apple logo. You know, you've seen the Apple logo so many times. Of course, you know all the features. But then when you quiz people and test them, and I do

[08:54] this in my class, people aren't sure. Is the bite on the left or the right hand side? Is there a stem or a leaf? Um, but if you make people draw it while they're it better >> while they're looking at the actual

[09:07] actually the best way to remember something is to again failures. >> I'll have you draw it without looking at it and you struggling. Wait, is it on leaf? And you're starting to question all of these things. Then when you look

[09:21] engage in better learning than if you hadn't done that errorful kind of trial correctly. >> Exactly. Yeah. So this sort of thing is

[09:33] you know in a in a academic setting we don't want failure. We want people to do well. But I think the sort of retrieval failure with some you know corrective feedback is really beneficial and that's kind of how you learn through life. You

[09:46] correct them. But if you're constantly just doing it the right way, you're not we've tried to extend this to other domains like you know it's called around you, like where the nearest fire extinguisher is, let's say. And I

[10:02] somewhere nearby and you've probably walked by it many times, but you stop noticing it. And it's only until you'll need it, you'll realize, wait, where is it? And so we've done this study where you have to, instead of me telling you

[10:15] where it is, you have to get up and find it. And so now you're engaging with the it and be like, gosh, it's been there the whole time. have walked by it so many times have never noticed it. And I think that's the difference between

[10:29] seeing something and noticing it. So someone who studies vision, we know a lot of information reaches the retina, but then how much of it reaches our kind of more conscious level. And not all of it does. And I think that's what makes

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[13:43] mattresses. Again, that's helix.com/huberman to get up to 27% off. Yeah, the big revelation for me when learning about neuroplasticity, and it was such an obvious one once I heard it, uh, was

[13:57] that if you can perform a mental or physical task, there's no reason for your brain to change. You clearly already have the circuit. So it's the gap between desired performance and current performance that actually

[14:09] triggers the opportunity for plasticity. >> Yeah. And those can be uncomfortable positions, right? Where it's like, I don't know this. Am I am I going to be able to learn it? And I think that's the this metacognitive aspect of when are

[14:22] now is unsupervised learning. classrooms and teachers are telling you what to do. You want to learn a new >> you might do a lot of it on YouTube, right? You're going to try and figure it

[14:34] want to learn how to communicate with people, there's going to be a lot of trial and error. And I think kind of the best learners are the ones who persist um who are curious because that's how you're going to get a lot of feedback

[14:47] asking not just lots of questions but the right questions. Yeah. Yeah. And I the right questions. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the frustration and agitation I do believe that's the you know the release of uh catakolamines you know epinephrine

[15:01] norepinephrine and those change the millu around synapses and um let them want to avoid are the things that actually allow us to learn. It could be that people that are very good at learning and have this willingness to

[15:15] you know, like, okay, they're excellent in one domain and they're perfectly happy to be a raw beginner in a different domain. I always wonder if they experience agitation the same way that anyone else would, but that they

[15:28] don't have the same relationship to it. Like, oh, here's that autonomic arousal maybe they don't conceptualize as frustration. So in terms of >> getting better at learning and remembering things um have you or any

[15:43] other laboratories parsed kind of people's um framework around it like I know there's a vast literature around growth mindset but but I'm I'm thinking more in terms of how people think about their own levels of

[15:56] frustration because if you go oh like here I am frustrated again awesome let's go now's the opportunity versus h like I'm I'm terrible at this I know I should push through I I just wonder whether or mindset can actually make a difference.

[16:08] play a big role. A lot of the learning to take a test or learning, you know, something because it'll be on a test. But as we get through life, we realize you're interested in bird watching or

[16:20] music or skateboarding. You know, a lot of this is going to be observational other people. So, I think it comes down to curiosity, which is almost closing this knowledge gap where here I am, but I want to be here. How can I get from

[16:34] here to here? And some of it is there's a strong motivation there. And that's something we've started to study with older adults as well because um we know memory declines happen with age, but not all things change equally. And in fact,

[16:47] might actually remain stable or even improve. And I think some of the keys here are curiosity, being interested in, you know, listening to a podcast, knowledge gap, and then kind of extending that and going further. And I

[17:02] I sometimes find there's topics that I'm not so interested in, but then there's some that I will almost become obsessive about that it's like I'm going to watch that YouTube video and the next one and the next one and then 45 minutes later.

[17:14] And I think that that can be, you know, kind of a waste of time in some ways, but it shows that our brain is craving this information. And uh that's how that will change as we get older. And some of our research suggests that

[17:29] as we get older, we're more selective about what we focus on. And I think that waste as much time on learn trying to learn everything, but you're more focused on the things you want to learn about. Do we know that it's important to

[17:43] continue to seek out new information as we get older in order to maintain our memory? Or is it sufficient to just make some effort to remember the past, what we need to do to get through our day? You know, I think this gets down to this

[17:58] question people think I really should be striving to to keep my memory. Everyone wants to keep their memory. Sure, that makes sense. But how hard should people push to learn new information as opposed to you maintaining what they've got?

[18:10] it's a little bit of both and you want to have that sort of balance. So, if you know, if you if you play piano, my father in his 80s, 90s still plays piano. I don't think he's learning new pieces, but he's strengthening the the

[18:23] pieces he knows and that keeps him sharp. Um, on the other hand, being traveling, if you're talking to different people, that can be really neurogenesis. You want to, you know, develop new brain cells, which we know

[18:37] doesn't just stop as we, you know, reach a certain age. [snorts] So, it's probably a bit of both. And people ask me, you know, what's the best thing to keep my brain sharp as a cross word puzzles? And that's interesting because

[18:49] I think as we get older, our actual verbal knowledge is maintained, if not improved. So in a way you're strengthening a strength and I think that can be beneficial but probably the other things to do are do new things.

[19:01] you know, go outside and appreciate the birds or talk to someone who has a different restaurant even. All of these things I find as I get older, I have a lot of routines. But it's when I start to violate these routines, take a

[19:15] different way to work or, you know, try something different at a restaurant, I different experience today. I did something else. And important. >> We do get set in our ways. That's a it's

[19:29] habits can be healthy and we can talk more about that because there those routines, you know, I drove this way and I didn't get into a car accident or I after the first couple of weeks, they all sit in the same seats. I'm always

[19:42] like, why why is that? And it's like, well, I didn't get attacked by a snake here, so it's safe. Maybe evolutionarily it makes sense. But I'll sometimes want everyone to get up and switch sides and sit somewhere else. And students are

[19:56] like, "This is terrible. Like, I have to move." But there's some benefits to having a different perspective uh both physically and possibly mentally that you're going to then remember things differently. And I know if I've taken a

[20:08] class in a different classroom every year, I can almost revisit each of those rooms and try and recall what I learned. But if you learn all in the same spot, there's a lot of interference. So I think there there can be benefits to

[20:20] changing our habits. Um but it can be uncomfortable, especially at first. I went to a lot of scientific meetings early in my career and I would change seats at after every break. It was the only way I could stay awake through all

[20:33] keep me awake and some just wouldn't. I mean, they don't tell you this, but meetings and often a lot of boring ones, too. And you feel obligated to stay. permission to get up and take a walk, but you know, um, so I do think that one

[20:49] learns differently. It even if you just change the novelty of seat position. of as you've gotten older, more experienced. First of all, you give up if this isn't working for me or I want to see something else. But I've

[21:04] over here and then over here and then over here. And you know, that's those are some principles of memory that I think when you have this metacognitive insight, um, you can use it effectively. And I I've learned and I've seen my

[21:17] children learn sometimes through mistakes or sometimes this works better for me. And I think that's fascinating that we can do that. >> It is interesting that almost everybody has an experience of saying like a gaff

[21:31] like saying something stupid or um getting the wrong answer publicly and the the shame and the arousal that comes with that means a we we're never going to forget the right answer, but we tend to remember the experience of of of

[21:44] >> Than the it sort of swamps the information somehow. And it just raises this question for me is is there a slight to severe

[21:56] emotional tag on every memory we have. >> I think you know a part of our brain like the amydala that's involved in processing emotions is is very active other parts of the brain tend to decline. So I think you're right that

[22:10] a lot of our memories. Some of them are, things we go back to for comfort. Sometimes we even change them a little thought they happened. >> I think that happens

[22:23] >> Sure. And that's part of our emotional tuning like what makes us feel good. Um Some you know PTSD there's a lot of research on how we can try and help people. Um so I think memory can be tuned that way and a lot of it can have

[22:39] usually the memories that we cherish. They're the ones that we might be afraid of. I I still remember even though I'm not sure I remember it accurately this Wizard of Oz and now when my daughter was in Wizard of Oz I was like oh this

[22:53] is such a great play so I was thinking positively about it even though at that >> What do you think happened there? >> You know I was probably just distracted you know you do a lot of these dress rehearsals. I'm not clearly I'm not an

[23:06] rehearsing and you don't see the audience. You don't appreciate what's young, you know, all of a sudden like, oh, there's all these people watching me and I know I know what I'm supposed to say, but I kind of I'm not convinced

[23:20] most people even remembered it. I'm not even sure my parents were there, you know? So, I think we then think of it as a very strong emotional memory, but it guides us. And to me, that that's a lasting memory in a sense because it

[23:32] memory really work? I thought I knew how it worked. And I see a lot of people, you know, studying in ways that aren't always as effective. You know, we know some of the work, this is colleagues at UCLA studied desirable difficulties. How

[23:46] can you make learning kind of uncomfortable, but that you'll remember things better? And it goes against a lot of our intuitions. A lot of teachers learning easier? And I think that's probably the first problem is you don't

[23:59] want it to be easy. You want it to be not a struggle, but a challenge so that you can appreciate just how difficult it is. So, if I learned nothing else from know, do a presentation or talk to other people, I love to see the room I'm going

[24:12] scientific presentation, maybe you've done this, too. The night before you're like, "Oh, this is the auditorium." And probably raises your, you know, arousal comfortable than the day of. >> I don't have a photographic memory. I

[24:26] wish I did, or maybe I wish I I didn't, but a long time ago, I decided, um, I was in a in a really cool circumstance. I was on a picnic. I think it was my thinking like, gosh, she's so beautiful. I'm just going to take a picture. We

[24:40] in the hills behind uh where I used to live. And I just went and I decided, of course, in my mind now, it's it's blurry. Like I don't remember specific think I remember that the angle was that. And then

[24:55] >> like a year and a half ago, I was in uh Manhattan. and I was in an Uber and I just was like maybe I could just do that for a like a trivial was that one of those scaffolds for construction and I just decided you just

[25:09] and I'm like I wonder if I'll remember it and I still remember it. Now the question I have is do I actually remember the content of what I saw? >> Besides just their crude, you know, the scaffold, the guy in one case, you know,

[25:23] my my girlfriend, we were sitting on this nice big lawn above there this lake there. It's it's a beautiful spot uh in Palto still there. or is what's stamped in my decision to do that and the and the sort of conscious collection of it

[25:39] is are is it these weren't like big emotionally salient events where the the difference between these visual memories and other visual memories is that the emotional load wasn't that high >> but I made the decision to do it. It was

[25:55] So, I'm not just trying to remember like like we also went to was her senior my junior prom. Like I don't I remember a few things from that prom, >> but I can't reme I don't have a visual picture of the prom, but the prom was

[26:08] also a lot more emotionally, you know, laden than anything I just >> Yeah, it's a fascinating question because I think selection is the a conscious decision like this is a special moment. Can I just take a

[26:23] memory is interesting. We are very visual people but the research on photographic memory does show that even people who have very strong visual memory will make memory errors. So it's not that you know it's exactly

[26:37] exceptional. I think what's interesting here and this is something I think is important is the selection process that you're choosing. This is a special remember it. >> You're not, you know, doing anything

[26:50] going on. Now there's probably some emotional veilance there. versus taking >> And it would be interesting to kind of test your memory later because we know sometimes we think we remember something well and in fact we misremember things

[27:05] or details and hopefully you know you got the right girlfriend of course but different or sometimes people are like of course it was spring cuz we went to the prom but it's like no actually now that you know we it was a different

[27:17] season entirely that was fall and confusing with the other picnic I took. especially as you know we get older that there are some memories these days we probably you probably couldn't then but you could have pulled out your phone and

[27:30] actually taken a picture and you see a lot of people offloading information now >> that you know I'm not going to remember this I'll take a picture there is some research showing that that act of deciding to take the picture actually

[27:42] >> for the event. >> Interesting. Now, it can also make your memory worse because you're realizing I want to I'm taking this photo so I don't need to remember it later. And so, you could see it going both ways, but that

[27:56] sometimes you're choosing this is take a picture or this is a special moment. I want to take this picture. And of my family. This is a special moment. I want to take this photo. But there are

[28:10] times where I'm like, I don't have my camera. I don't want to interfere. this is going to be like an internal memory that I can take um and hopefully it >> I tell myself that my mindset [clears throat] at the time was this is

[28:23] >> Yeah. >> I hope I never forget it. and I think, you know, the more you retrieve it and go back there, the more it. And our brain does a lot of interesting things in terms of, you

[28:37] know, reconstructing the past also has a similar brain signature as imagining the future. which you know in some ways makes sense. We shouldn't have separate the past and thinking about the future. But that can kind of then predict why

[28:51] you might misremember something. Why your imagination has to be based surely on the experiences you've had already right or you know if I say what would it be like to go to Mars? Well you've never been to Mars but you've seen movies in

[29:05] the past about it. So our, you know, if I said imagine a space alien, you and I being similar age are probably going to think of the ET version of one, >> whereas someone who's younger than us might have a very different kind of

[29:18] interesting to think of memory as kind of a reconstruction of the past, but also imagining the future involves, you know, our past experiences. >> Never thought about it that way. It's the perfect time, I think, to raise the

[29:32] quote that uh a former guest on this podcast put on social media the other day. They weren't his words, but this Morgan Howell, who did a really wonderful episode on the psychology of money. Um, and I I really love his first

[29:46] book, but also his second book u the art of spending money. Um, he put out a he said it's a Russian quote, "The past is more unpredictable than the future." Yeah. goodness, that raises questions about eyewitness testimony, um, spousal

[30:02] arguments. You know, I occasionally will get an email, my wife and I are have a and and I have a rule. I I don't get into uh spousal uh debates or arguments of any kind. So, >> do we remember things the way they

[30:17] happened or do we confabulate uh do we um muck it all up? up and I don't think we do it intentionally either. But as a result of all the information we have in our memory, we're constantly interpreting,

[30:30] you know, the future and our current state. And you spoke a little bit about eyewitness memory. I think that's a really good example of that where and like your experience where you think you're taking a picture and you're going

[30:42] to remember everything and it feels like you will. I can remember the shirt. I can remember the smell. I can remember the weather. Um, and sometimes that can that sometimes we misremember these things. In some of these classic cases,

[30:56] unfortunately, um, you know, now that there's DNA evidence, you can determine that maybe they got the wrong person. And when that happens, you want to look back and say, how could that happen? And some of it comes down to faulty

[31:08] eyewitness identification. And these are not cases where people are lying or intentionally changing things, but they'll identify someone. They'll say, "That's the person." And as a result of identifying that person in a lineup,

[31:22] that person then replaces what they actually saw. So our memory can be contaminated just like any form of evidence could be contaminated. And then when you replay it again, you're replaying the person you identified, not

[31:35] the person you actually saw. Wow. So it's almost like we as we become more familiar with this person that we identified, quote unquote, our knowledge about them, facial features, etc. is is elaborated in our brain and we

[31:49] experience. >> Yeah. And and this is you know one of the most famous cases Ronald Cotton case where really horrible event happened um and the woman made a point of trying to remember her attacker. So it wasn't just

[32:04] she got a quick glance but she had a long interaction with him and that's you know a traumatic event and she said if I survive this I want to remember his face so I can identify him later. So this is like the the perfect situation where

[32:16] your memory should be sharp. And um it was crossra identification which we know is not as reliable as identifying someone of your own race. And when she saw a lineup she identified she took her time and said this feels like it's a

[32:30] multiplechoice test. And I studied hard for it. She took her time and she identified the person and she thought in her mind this is the person who was inches from my throat. um and she identified him and he had a an alibi

[32:43] that didn't stand up and he was you know then you know found guilty and it was only you know decades later that DNA evidence exonerated him and she felt horrible. um she felt like, you know, and there's a lot of reasons why this

[32:58] could happen, you know, whether leading questions or how the identification process was conducted, but she was trying to do what she felt was her job and take someone who she thought was guilty off the street and um later they

[33:13] got to meet in fact and she you know could apologize to him. She felt terrible. And so this is one case study and you know I wouldn't draw any principles that we've talked about where you feel like you're taking a photo.

[33:28] It's a cross race identification where your confidence might be high for good reason um but accuracy might not be and then this kind of changing of the face whereas once you identify the face that's what you start to remember and so

[33:43] I think there's a lot of interesting memory principles at play here. How does thing? I mean nowadays there's so many more cameras and phones which can track location. I like to think those things have improved the courtroom scenarios uh

[33:59] genuine mistakes. >> Yeah. I think it's you know memory evidence just like DNA just like any sort of evidence but also we need to be aware that it can be contaminated just like any other source of evidence as

[34:13] evidence is perfect. Well, it can also be contaminated in predictable ways. And I think, you know, coming back to this idea of metacognition, most people feel understanding of how memory works, >> but it's not always accurate. And

[34:28] sometimes confidence, high confidence doesn't necessarily mean high accuracy. fooled is usually, you know, the more you see something, the better you'll remember it, just like the Apple logo. But that's not always the case. And

[34:42] more you see something, the more you might stop attending to the features or you don't need to use it. And so that is a more kind of predictable memory principle. But we don't have this, you know, always accurate metacognitive

[34:56] interesting. I think that's both concerning, you know, in the eyewitness learning. How can we be kind of effective and maximize our learning? >> I have a question about what I want to call medium-term memory. I don't even

[35:11] know if that's a real term. Short-term memory. Working memory. Listeners to but working memory is like keeping a phone number online in your head or a string of numbers um until you need it and then kind of you may or may not

[35:25] remember it long term. Long-term memory, obviously. Long-term memory. But there's this thing that I do. I'm there's today is a bit of a confessional. So, um, when I check into hotels, um, um, I always look at the map of how to

[35:42] get out in a fire because once staying at a hotel in San Francisco for a donor event, the alarm went off in the middle of the night. Everyone, of course, stuck was leaving and everyone like, "We're

[35:54] everyone's room. It was an actual fire, which taught me like when the alarm >> But, >> and it was pretty confusing. Yeah, >> wide hallways, wasn't clear. Exit sign was not to like the actual stairwell. It

[36:07] was, you know, was not a good situation. But of course, got out fine. But from now on, before I go to sleep, I go and I look at [laughter] the where you are >> I look for the exit. I occasionally walk the hall. I don't

[36:21] Especially in a high-rise. I just do not want to be in a situation where I can't get out of a building that's on fire. I figure it takes like 5 minutes. People laugh at me. And I do this, but I make a mental map. Okay, so let's assume it's

[36:33] Smokeoky. I do this thing. Okay, I would which is the closer door? I would go right, then left, right, then left, right. Okay, so I drill it in my head. Good. And I go to sleep. I never remember the maps, but it's not working

[36:45] memory. It's not short-term memory. I couldn't tell you for the life of me what the last hotel map looked like in my head. Had a you are here, red dot, had doors, had exit. So it had these component parts. But what term memory is

[37:00] that? And thank goodness I don't remember because it's going to change Yeah. So, what are the mechanisms that healthy? >> And also, is medium-term memory an

[37:14] >> Well, I think when you're saying medium-term, that's your everyday basic need to remember things, but I don't think I need to remember them that long, but I really need to remember them today or tonight, and it makes me sleep better

[37:27] experience. I was um staying in a hotel with my family and the fire alarm went Well, we know we don't take the elevator. That's what you're always map, but you could I looked down the hall and I swear when I looked down the

[37:42] "Let's not go that way." So, we went down the other way. We rushed down the stairs. We got outside and the kids were pretty, you know, traumatic. And actually, one of our children was like eight stories ahead of us going down the

[37:56] stairs. But what's interesting is I thought I saw smoke and that's maybe I didn't have my glasses on but that's my mind playing tricks on me. So maybe that was my concern. But I think that you know this everyday memory is is really

[38:10] relevant and um when you're studying that map you're making notes of like okay it's close by. It's down the hall. I've got to go down here. Um and that can be very informative and useful for survival. And there's some research

[38:24] brain is tuned towards is surviving. You know, where am I going to eat? How am I going to sleep? How am I going to um so when you say everyday memory, I think that's probably the most important thing. And part of that memory formation

[38:36] is also then forgetting it and updating it. It's as simple as you you need to know your hotel room number when you're staying there. But if I ask you your hotel room number a week later, it's gone. But that's good in a way because

[38:50] remember and other hotel room numbers to remember. So there's benefits of forgetting. Um and you want to So I think that's an interesting insight. You're doing some processing to remember something but then you need to update it

[39:02] and forget it. Um and you know it's the same thing. I think the best thing you studying the map is one thing, but some people aren't great with maps and where am I in the hotel is doing that active learning of actually walking the halls

[39:16] there's there's the elevator, so I can't go there. Oh, there are the stairs. I'll remember that. And then you can kind of encode it. So that sort of active extinguisher. We made people get up and find it instead of telling people where

[39:29] it was. And I'm always, you know, when you're on a flight, they'll always, you know, say there's six emergency exits on this plane. And then I think they do the wrong thing. They they tell you where they are. [snorts] I think the best

[39:41] six emergency exits on this plane. I'm >> not going to tell you where they are. >> Well, I'm not going to say not where they are, but go find them. And I notice, maybe it's just myself being anxious, is as soon as they say that,

[39:53] know where they all are. >> Whereas most people are like, "Oh, they pointed here, here, and here. And I'll even say sometimes the nearest one is to see where it is behind me. And so I think that sort of act of learning,

[40:06] whether you call it everyday memory, is is really important. And I think when we talk about memory, people are like, I can't remember names. I'm like, that's >> But if you you need to sometimes remember like what medication are you

[40:19] time you saw this person? And those sorts, I think it's really important to be in tune with what you're calling this kind of everyday average memory. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, AG1. AG1 is a

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[41:41] to get a free bottle of the new Omega-3 co-enzyme Q10 with your first AG1 Thank you for that. And I'm going to use that as weaponry when I get teased for uh walking the the fire exits. But it was because the in part because the

[41:56] you know if we should leave? Do you know do you know which way to go?" And I realized, "Okay, next time it might as well be me. I I'll be the guy that knows And then I can tell other people which way to go. Nobody else here knows where

[42:10] to know the next time. I do the thing on the plane, too. I think, okay, I actually read the thing of how to Yeah. take it out because I figured well I've experienced how under conditions of very high arousal you just default

[42:22] high arousal you just default >> to what almost feel like whatever was trained whatever reflexes you have I mean I had a scuba diving accident years came close to the end but it was an air failure and it was a whole mess and you

[42:36] >> yeah we had to do the whole share error thing it was a precarious situation to begin with and and you just default to these routines actually recently I watched what I think is a spectacular documentary about Dean Potter, who was a

[42:49] he was a free solo climber, a predecessor to um to Alex Honold. >> Um he was kind of the guy to beat and Honold passed him up pretty early, but jumping and the whole thing. And there was this um there's a scene where um so

[43:06] be warned if you watch this amazing four-part series. There's a scene where uh people were doing base jumping in Yusede are advocating for it being legal were a bunch of spectators there and they were doing this big demonstration

[43:19] they were doing this big demonstration jump. And a woman who was a very very um jump. And a woman who was a very very um seasoned base jumper, she didn't want to confiscating people's gear at the bottom. So, she borrowed someone else's

[43:32] gear and she jumps and she's used to pulling from a leg a leg pull I guess it down. >> The whole way down. And she's got, you >> Yeah. >> And just, you know, um not to give it

[43:45] away, but I guess, you know, um gave it away that uh she see her just doing this routine movement. >> And she put on a different pack. She knew that it was a different pole

[43:59] high arousal, >> even highly highly trained people um for to whatever it is that they're used to doing. And if you don't know what to do, you default to not knowing what to do. If you know what to do, you default to

[44:13] situation. And I've I've had that experience scuba diving. It's very clear from this documentary. the and I think we're all a little naive in thinking that oh no like when the alarm goes and everything is crazy like I'm going to

[44:25] sort through this in a in a regimented way like or I'll be so keyed up I'll I'll have to figure it out. This is not quite the case. The brain seems to not >> Yeah. I think we discover that um you know in these extreme situations but

[44:37] situations there's there's a really concerning thing that happens that the back of their car >> unattended and you know and these >> unattended and you know and these infants will will die on hot days. When

[44:52] reason this happens is, you know, these are very responsible, very intelligent parents who will, you know, put their child in the car and then get in the car I'm going to work. I'm going to do my

[45:06] job and you're in this routine. The baby falls asleep, you drive to work, you go upstairs, you do, and then you and then you get this phone call of like, where's dropped off? And you're thinking, what what are you talking about?

[45:18] >> Exactly. I'm sure many people listening to this are like there's no way. There's >> Well, I think there's like there's no way that could happen to me. This must be some person who's super distracted or has this. Sadly, it happens too often to

[45:34] people. And I think that's part of the issue is like like you were saying, normally is. You drive to work a hundred times this way, but it's this one day where it was your turn to take the infant to daycare and you just get into

[45:48] this mode, this habit, this routine. And now we have to have, you know, our car even say, you know, have you checked the back seat for an infant? It's like, gosh, have we come to that level where we need to be reminded of these things?

[46:02] So I think that's where you know it it you're right it becomes lethal that you terms of prospective memory remembering to do something in the future. We think of memories usually as remembering to do some from the past right but a lot of it

[46:15] today? Are you meeting this person? We have offload this to our phones and get reminders. Um but we're prone to forgetting and um especially under person's falling. But it's even as simple as when you're in the car and and

[46:30] car, you start mind wandering. You're thinking of a million other things and or you missed your turn. So our brain kind of takes over in ways that we might not be sure about. Yeah. One of the things that spooks me about scuba diving

[46:44] and I love scuba diving is, you know, I got my Patty certification because it's a bit more involved, but it worries me that you actually don't have to update and if you do, not very often. You can It's been gosh it's been four or more

[46:58] five years since I went scuba diving last time. I've got my card. I have my >> and if somebody wants to go scuba diving tomorrow I can do it legally. >> But there's a lot involved you know like you need to brush up. And so you know I

[47:11] all this like you know people can sue each other there all these legal protections but there's still a lot of ways in which we can do damage to the fact that we're we don't have to brush up on driving skills. Yeah,

[47:25] >> you know, it it's kind of a shock to me that we don't have more more problems >> It's true. I think the more you think about it, it's amazing how much we do circumstances. But I agree that a lot of this, you know, scuba diving, too,

[47:39] because you're underwater with, you know, buoyancy, you have to figure things out. And I got certified, too, when I was 20. I wouldn't trust myself to to do it again. I'd want to probably take the entire course again. Um, and

[47:51] maybe but when you're 30 maybe you feel confident and you know especially drivers like new drivers you know you give very little training to younger drivers and then you're like you're on your own. Uh I've seen it with my

[48:04] children learning to drive. I also realize I'm not as good a driver as I thought I was. I'm certainly passing on some habits that I probably should be more aware of and they're more rulebased. They're aware of how to do

[48:16] this wisdom. Well, you don't need to do that or you know that's the rule, but I do it this way. So, I think you're right. I think we revisiting these things more often and being more cognizant probably would make us safer.

[48:29] cognizant probably would make us safer. On the lighter side, um many people who are concerned about their memory as they age will ask about forgetting. Um, I want to know why as people get older, they tell the same stories over and over

[48:46] again, same jokes over and over again. Have they forgotten that they've said the joke or they just doing it for their own entertainment or [snorts] about? Like I feel like someone needs to do that study like like why why

[48:59] stories as they get older? I I think there's a lot of reasons and you know a lot of memories do change with age and some forms of memory like source memory uh tends to decline with age. You can't remember where you saw the headline or

[49:12] who you told the joke to. Um and sometimes I'll even say, you know, have it's just such a good joke or such a care because I'm going to tell it to you again because I'm enjoying this. And my

[49:24] that so many times. I'm like, yeah, but it's so good. So, it's probably a little bit of both. But I think there's also some nostalgia. Like we do share family >> And I think you know when families get together for Thanksgiving there's this

[49:38] happened? It's like yeah we tell that story every time. Um a lot of our histories used to be oral histories where you know we're telling stories and reminding people and it's how we determine what foods were safe. But

[49:51] frustrating and I think we think gosh I'm talking to this older person. They're telling me the same thing again and you're nodding. But I I take a certain amount of enjoyment from it. There's a nostalgia. Um there's also a

[50:03] feeling of familiarity. >> And so probably it's it's a collection pathological aging that people will completely forget. Um you know, they'll "What's for dinner again?" 5 minutes later, "What's for dinner again? What's

[50:17] for dinner again?" And that's where it's probably more concerning. Um but it is an interesting thing to note that as we you know get older we might engage in that sort of behavior. >> What is the consensus now on Alzheimer's

[50:30] and memory loss generally? Meaning is it inevitable that people lose some amount of memory and um conditions like Alzheimer's are just a more rapid about super aers. These people that seem to maintain cognition well better than

[50:45] their their peers anyway. Are there people who just, you know, are sharp till the day they take their last breath and that last breath comes in their 90s or even past 100? >> Yeah, I think just the the diversity

[50:57] interesting. You could look at a 100-year-old who's doing really well and a 60-year-old who's not doing so well. So, we can't just use kind of biological age as as the marker. Um, and as a psychologist, of course, I'm interested

[51:10] in psychological aspects. Um, and there's, you know, an old study on nuns how you can test different people, but nuns are very committed to their their profession. Um, and you found that these nuns, how they aged, some of them

[51:25] certainly when they passed away, their brains had these kind of hallmark signs of dementia, plaques and tangles, but behaviorally they were still high functioning. So, it's really interesting that the hardware shows what we see as

[51:38] dementia and specifically Alzheimer's disease, but their behavior uh was that of a fairly healthy cognitive person. So, something else has to be going on. say it's having a sense of purpose,

[51:52] could be having social connections. We know that's incredibly important. I control over it. And some of it might be based on physical exercise and sleep. So I know things you've talked about before and some it is having kind of a positive

[52:06] like you you know some people say well it's all genetic so what do I have to do? Well if you go on a walk some really good research shows that you know walking three or four times a week um can enhance hippocample function the

[52:21] part of the brain that's very involved in declarative memory. Um and that part of the brain you know having turned 50 recently tends to decline by about one to two% a year in terms of volume. So this is kind of physical shrinkage of

[52:33] >> But in the walking group the group that was randomly assigned to walk three four times a week for 40 minutes compared to a stretching group who's still engaging in exercise but not cardiovascular exercise. The walking group their you

[52:46] know hippocamp is actually increased in volume by 1%. So you're changing the the behavior. Their memory was much better a year later. So I think, you know, if you saw a doctor and said, you know, I'm having some memory problems. What can I

[53:01] do? Most people are looking for a pill or, you [snorts] know, sometimes it's eat this or do that. But I think physical exercise can be so important. don't know exactly, but it probably trickles down to things like

[53:14] improvements in sleep as well. M you know if you're getting exercise maybe better mood you're going to sleep better. We know a lot of memory formation happens when you're sleeping. Uh we know as we get older our sleep

[53:28] quality tends to decline even if our quantity tends to increase. So I think we can do and I'm using physical exercise as the example and it doesn't have to be you know the extreme version. um walking, dancing, um a lot of people,

[53:44] you know, enjoy being outside. Uh that can be incredibly important to offset lead to dementia. >> Was the walking vigorous? >> You know, in this group, I think it's really 30 to 40 minutes. And there's

[53:59] but it's something where you can randomly assign people to either walk or engage in stretching. >> So if you're biking, if you're swimming, can be beneficial. But here it's, you know, you can randomly assign people to

[54:12] where you're, you know, there's research showing that the people who walk slightly faster actually live longer. Um, so, you know, you're not sure >> Could certainly be that. And and a lot of this research, it's tough to do aging

[54:26] research because it's hard to randomly assign people to to certain conditions, that you have a little bit of control over the process is important. And I talk about aging, they're so worried about dementia and, you know,

[54:40] Alzheimer's disease as a specific form, but balance is even more important, I think. And most people aren't even aware of their balance. >> So, one in four people over the age of 65 will experience a fall. And that fall

[54:54] can be very detrimental. You can break your hip, your collar bone. Often, you frequently. You trip over a carpet or a rug. And you know, if you're in bed recovering from these falls, you're not walking. You know, your hippocampus is

[55:09] how's your balance?" Most people are like, "Well, it's fine. I I don't haven't had a fall." But there's a very simple test. We could do it now if you if you can balance on one leg for at least 10 seconds. And I have, you know,

[55:23] when I do presentations, I do this ideally 30, 40 minutes into the presentation. We shouldn't be sitting for so long. And most people do pretty well. it's a younger group and sometimes it's older adults I'm speaking to and

[55:35] you have something you can hold on to and you can tell that balance changes >> and then I say okay now try doing it with your eyes closed with my older adult group because then you see the younger people start to tip

[55:51] cues from our visual environment for balance >> everyone you'll see the younger people start to tip that's why it's even more test. >> It very much is, but it's this again

[56:05] you think your balance is fine because you haven't had a fall, but you could be close to falling at any given point. And so, you know, the cerebellum, the almost involved in a lot of this. What's interesting with balance is it's very

[56:20] trainable. And so, you know, there's parts of balance that involve visual inner ear, but if you engage in some training, and it can be as simple as taichi, you can improve your balance considerably within a month or two. And

[56:34] so, I think when I talk to older adults who, you know, sometimes are even middle-aged, worried about their memory, I think balance is often overlooked and I've started to do it a little bit and I've noticed changes in my balance.

[56:47] >> Sometimes good. I also notice I don't sleep well. my balance isn't as good. Um, and I think that's probably the most important thing to be on the lookout for and you have a fall, you're not going to

[57:00] memor is going to decline. >> Yeah, the old skiers and the uh old surfers look to be in pretty awesome shape. Um, there are million compounds

[57:12] there. The sunlight, the social connection, the water, the cold, the, things. Um, obviously it's not just the skiing or the surfing, but there are certain sports where you look at the people and you say, "Okay, they're not

[57:26] the biggest and strongest, nor are they the ones with the most endurance, but on looks good." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um, they seem relatively happy. Who

[57:39] >> Um, they seem relatively happy. Who knows, right? I'm intrigued by the fact that I look at a lot of these videos of of uh super aers and athletes in their 70s, 80s, 90s who are doing remarkably well. It's very rare to see a video of

[57:55] athletes or non-athletes past 80 where they're breathing through their nose with their mouth shut. Almost always you see, [sighs and gasps] >> but there does seem to be a shift in the way that people breathe as they get

[58:07] older. look at some of the um I forget his name now. He's a television um personality u who's been around a long he's in his hundreds and he's been on YouTube in the news programs recently. But at rest it's like a mouth open

[58:22] whether or not they're getting enough oxygen to their brain. And I I do think that the shift in how we breathe, spontaneous movement, these things all >> Um and I do think each >> component part needs to be looked at

[58:36] So, okay. So, it's the movement, it's the exercise, the novelty, the social connection, but ultimately there's a lot of other things going on. Like, we know older people just don't they don't move spontaneously very much. We had Twilight

[58:49] Tharpin here, the you know, world famous choreographer, and she's in her somewhere in her 80s. You know, she can >> deadlift um twice her body weight. two hours. >> Wow.

[59:01] >> She boxed for a while. >> Um but actual boxing cuz she's Twilight, right? She's a she's a really uh she's got a lot of spirit, but >> she doesn't sit like I'm sitting like kind of lazy back. She's she's fully

[59:14] active and she's she's moving and she's nasal breathing when unless she's speaking like she's >> she's her nervous system is turned on. I notice that and I go, God willing, I'll be I'll be like that. But I notic with

[59:27] each passing year, I take a few more opportunities to lean against things as opposed to standing up, not leaning against them or starting to resemble the bulldogs I've owned. There's opportunity to lie down, they lie down. If there's

[59:39] opportunity, you know, sleep and I don't know that that's good. Maybe we need to nudge ourselves to be a little more active than we're comfortable. I think I notice I'm doing more of this or I'm looking a lot like this and I'm

[59:52] surprised things starting like posture or even breathing. And I think, you but just getting more oxygen to the brain is so important. And I think know, for physical exercise, you're getting more oxygen to your brain, which

[1:00:06] really as you get older, it's harder to do that. And so exercise might be kind maybe with the, you know, advances, we're going to find other ways to do that. Uh but I think that insight is is really important. And it's also, you

[1:00:21] know, we have age-based stereotypes of what happens, like, oh, as you get older, you know, let's say, you know, my knee hurts and some people are like, oh, well, you're just getting older. >> Well, my other knee is the same age and

[1:00:34] it feels fine. [laughter] >> So, something's going on. Maybe there's does give you this feeling like, hey, there's something I can do. Or maybe you physical therapy like a lot of the exercises we do you know if you keep

[1:00:49] then you lose a lot of the other you know muscle mass and you know I think >> even walking people will say it's really like a controlled form of losing your balance and regaining it and losing your balance and regaining it

[1:01:03] >> and so you add that into hiking which is has unpredictable surfaces you know all these muscles that are you know you're not using too often now have to be I think that coming back to like challenging yourself can be very

[1:01:15] uncomfortable positions. I mean, it's great to be on this podcast, but there's want to do this, right? Like, you know, how do you get that? >> No, now I feel fine. But I think as we put ourselves in these uncomfortable

[1:01:30] >> I remember, you know, when I first started teaching, you're like, gosh, 300 people, you know, is this this is an uncomfortable situation. And one of one of my mentors said, you know what? there's only one thing you need to do

[1:01:43] and that's breathe because you start to forget that you get oxygen to your brain that then you can do what you probably can do quite >> and that's a a psychological oversight where we just kind of start I don't know

[1:01:57] if it's just mouth breathing but as we get older you know or there's more stress we stop being aware of you know the things that can really help us I notice with each passing year I get a little more difficult with myself about

[1:02:14] the little things, you know, just like so I try to this day I have to push myself. I take the stairs a little bit faster than I want to. I I don't take escalators unless there's no stairs available. Um when I travel I really I

[1:02:27] available. Um when I travel I really I find I but I have to push you know >> I I have to I mean perhaps um uh you know collateral advantage of doing this now I don't want to get spotted in an airport on an escalator. Um, the other

[1:02:41] was in a commercial gym and I was listening to music on my phone and this "I thought you don't use your phone when you work out." I was like, "Sometimes I texting and sending messages." And he was like, "Okay." You know, it's like,

[1:02:55] say." But it's nice. It actually has a forcing function, right? Um, and I think things where we're not being observed. We're we're not we know we should do them, but then we don't do them. And I think the injury thing is uh and the

[1:03:09] >> Yeah. >> You know, I I I hear this all the time, you know, like, yeah, I would exercise more, but I got this shoulder thing. I so much excitement about these peptides, and it's still very unclear, you know,

[1:03:24] Actually, there's a study out of Helen Blau's lab at Stanford um on mice and humans where they found an inhibitor of the molecule that inhibits cartilage regeneration. They knock out this inhibitor or they have a

[1:03:39] drug um kind of analog that can do this in humans and they observe regeneration of knee cartilage. I I'm sure this is going to be sourced to pharma. That's typical path for labs at Stanford if they have a discovery like that. But

[1:03:52] >> right now, knock on wood, I have [clears throat] like no no joint issues, think a lot of people just think, well, the body wears out. >> you know, the hip wears out, the knee wears out. And so when they have that

[1:04:06] overcome it by by movement. They they assume, well, you know, the chassis is >> well, a lot of this, you know, comes down to habits and some of it is motivation, right? It's hard to get motivated to go to the gym. And as you

[1:04:19] like harder to get up. it's easier to sit down. But I think knowing you have some control over it that you know a lot of especially in midlife people have back pain. It's probably the most common thing and it's probably from sitting you

[1:04:33] midlife there's some interesting you know it's not always a linear decline interesting work on you know happiness being more curve linear like midlife is

[1:04:46] happiness and life satisfaction >> really like our age 50 really >> so I hope in some ways that can well in some ways it can make great yeah well it can make you feel good because it you know a lot of people who might not feel

[1:04:59] actually that's the lowest point in the graph and it can actually get better >> The title of my book, >> but it makes you realize that as we get And yet, why are older adults, some of them who are fairly healthy and active

[1:05:14] are doing really well, whereas kind of when you're younger and your body's in decent shape, we're doing things like sitting, we're working a lot, we're stressed, we're not handling our emotions as well as we could. And so I

[1:05:26] think that's why aging is an interesting thing that you know we think when we're young that's you know the best times in our lives. It actually might be some of the most confusing times. >> Are you happier at 50 than you were at

[1:05:38] >> I think I am. I think I'm more content. >> Um but when I was at 20 or 30 I could do whatever I want. I could scuba dive. I from an injury. >> Your was your internal landscape more

[1:05:50] >> Absolutely not. And I actually see it in a lot of undergraduates who are like figure out what you want to do. You're trying you're in a different place. You have different partners. It's a you know and yet we say we almost romanticize

[1:06:05] >> Yeah. >> I am I I'll say I even though I am very >> I am I I'll say I even though I am very happy 40 was rough. My 40th birthday I was like this is rough. And coming up in sciences, I loved doing it. Loved the

[1:06:21] Raising money for your lab. A posttock is a very uncertain time. A lot of >> Yeah. >> And now I I mean, I have stressors, but >> I I view them differently. >> I feel completely differently about

[1:06:36] stress in general. I mean, I do a lot of things, but I I I don't think teen years, certainly not for me, or 20s or 30s are the best years of your of your life. Yeah. I I can attest like it didn't suck, but it it was rough.

[1:06:49] there's a lot of novelty and you did things then that you probably wouldn't do now, but I think when we talk about aging, we're talking about how how negative it can be and all these things that can happen physically, but a lot of

[1:07:02] interviewed for my book are saying actually 60 or 70 is probably the best >> Yeah. that makes me [clears throat] feel I mean it's a select group who I'm talking to but it's not like it's the best time in terms of my aches and pains

[1:07:17] or you know sure I wish I was 40 for some reasons but those times can be very psychological standpoint it's interesting to look at these kind of decline it's not that happiness just gets better with age there's there can

[1:07:32] I'm not a clinical psychologist some people call this you know midlife well conflict at midlife. Well, there's really conflicts at every stage. Some of the, you know, Ericson's work on said every decade there's a conflict and it's

[1:07:46] how you resolve it allows you to kind of move on to the next stage of life. And I think um, you know, sometimes we don't think about midlife as much as well, and this is what happens when you're old.

[1:07:59] happens in the middle which allows you to age well. Um, so when I'm, you know, older adults I talk to, I'm not educating them on how to age well. They've, they're there and they're doing it, it's often middle-aged people who

[1:08:14] are like, well, I have older parents. Um, you know, how are most people when what's my life going to be like when I'm 70 or 80? conceptualize. >> Sure. Yeah. I just try and do the best I

[1:08:28] can to take care of myself every day so that maybe I'll hit hopefully I'll hit 60 70 feeling great. I actually feel better physically now than I did in my better physically now than I did in my 40s and 30s, but I was working so much

[1:08:41] then. You know, a lot of people I'm not boasting. It's actually probably should mean I >> I worked nonstop and I don't know that little more balance would have been healthy. Now I work a lot, but I

[1:08:58] definitely take time to to meditate, to pray, spend time with people in my life. >> Yeah. >> Um the problem with academic science as you know is there's always a deadline or revision or or something. There's always

[1:09:12] always something. >> I think it's in a lot of professions, They have to prove themselves. You're either you're trying to survive, make money, make a name for yourself. And that puts a lot of stress on you. And as

[1:09:25] maybe it's not worth it or maybe I need to backtrack or maybe there's more important things. And I think it really does come down to balance. And um you know, John Wooden, the UCLA basketball coach, I got to interview him uh you

[1:09:39] know, he was in his 90s and he said it really comes down to two things. And I Coach Wooden is going to tell me, you know, the two things." And he thought of himself as a teacher, not just a coach. So he did, you know, a very effective

[1:09:52] thing. He had me guess those two things. The two most important words in the English language is how he said it. And here I am a student again. And I'm thinking, gosh, he's a coach, so I don't know. Success, teamwork, what is it? And

[1:10:05] he said, you know, the most important thing is love. Be around the people you love. Do the things you love. Um, and you know, he lost his wife well before he passed away. He wouldn't sleep on her side of the bed. He would write her a

[1:10:18] >> Wow. um you know he had report cards from his grandchildren's on the on on the wall right next to letters from presidents you know so he's really surrounded by a a great community former players calling his former players were

[1:10:32] by his bedside when he passed away and then the second most important word is struggle with we're talking about is balance and it's um partly physical balance he did have a fall >> um you know like we were talking about

[1:10:47] and it's interesting because he had a life alert around, you know, that he why I think technology is great. Maybe there's ways we can prevent falls or but he fell in the middle of the night. Um, and he broke his his collar bone and his

[1:11:02] wrist and he had this life alert button, but he didn't press it >> because of pride. >> Exactly. He didn't want to bother any >> Yeah. It's a [laughter] very but you know it you give people all this

[1:11:15] realize there's a psychological part to it as well. He waited until the morning his caretaker arrived rushed him to the hospital. Thankfully he survived but that's pride, guilt, shame, didn't want to bother someone. So that's the

[1:11:28] mental balance as he said like you were saying is he was a very driven person. coaching, but it meant a lot of time traveling, a lot of time away from his family, not focusing on the things that he found incredibly important. And as he

[1:11:43] got older, he felt like he could achieve more balance. You know, spend more time doing the things he wanted, be around the people he wanted. And I think that's a struggle for a lot of people. We get really into something and, you know, we

[1:11:55] forget about it. You know, we're having a conversation. It's hard to stand up. You know, it's, you know, you get focused on things. But as you get older, finding that balance and finding that peace.

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[1:13:39] and use the code hubman for a $50 credit towards your membership. Again, that's towards your membership. Again, that's functionhealth.com/huberman. Yeah, the notion of having to prove to oneself or even to others that one can

[1:13:53] do something, that's a kind of a hallmark of being younger. Yeah, I suppose some people escape that, but I think most people struggle with that social comparison thing >> and it can be very useful as a as a

[1:14:07] lever. >> Um, can generate a lot of hard work, great work through competition. um even competitions in one's own head, but you know, eventually you realize like you're the only one in this fight, you know,

[1:14:22] and uh I don't know. I I this podcast has a very um broad uh audience in terms of age ranges. And so I it's a it's interesting the the younger crowd, let's

[1:14:34] just say 35 and younger, tend to have questions about how to pick direction, what what direction to go. >> the older crowd um generally is asking about things related to keeping their

[1:14:47] memory, their health and these days asking a lot of questions about whether they should revise their notions of what age appropriate physical ability or mental ability should be. I think that's a big shift.

[1:14:59] >> Out there right now because um you know 20 years ago it was assumed you know people would hit 70 or 80 and start to slow down and you know now people are could feel great at 60. If I could feel great at 60 maybe I could feel great at

[1:15:13] 90. You know the possibility feels real. And I'm not talking about living longer. I actually don't consider myself a longevity person. Sometimes I'll get actually focused on that. Yes. I think it's great to live as long as you can at

[1:15:26] a a vibrant life, but what do you think about the messaging that we could go longer or could make more of our time? Do you think it's net positive or do you think that's creating a pressure for people to not live into their the

[1:15:41] reality that hey, they're like 70 and maybe slowing down and maybe telling maybe maybe they're supposed to shed wisdom and and not supposed to be uh jogging around the block. Yeah, it's so interesting to see these age age age

[1:15:55] that's shifting and we're certainly living longer or you know, for the most part if you look at our history and there's a variety of reasons for that, that we're adding are healthy ones. Um

[1:16:08] because the longer you live, the greater the chance of developing dementia. Um I think from a psychological perspective, it's interesting because uh you know, if That's very different than your biological age. Let's say you didn't

[1:16:22] parents actually said, "Sorry, we can't actually remember how old you are." >> How would you figure that out? >> We're actually not your parents. I'm I'm sure they're my parents. Um, yeah, that's an interesting question.

[1:16:35] you [clears throat] know, there's a physical feeling. There's al also this that? And actually, after the age of 40, most people feel about 20% younger than their actual age. M and so I don't know if it's deceptive but you know if you're

[1:16:50] 70 you know we just turned 50 and I'm like wow that sounds >> sounds old [laughter] I feel about 40 seemed more recent but get further along it's like gosh I'm in this age group am I supposed to do this

[1:17:04] now or behave like that but my parents are different than I was and so I think it's interesting it's also interesting that that subjective age is a better predictor of how long you'll live than your biological age.

[1:17:17] >> Yeah. So, you know, you go to the doctor and you're told like, "So, give me how old are you?" Well, that all of a sudden it's like, "Well, I guess I should 80-year-old." You're not going the doctor's not going to say, "How old do

[1:17:29] you feel?" And in some ways, people do feel their age. I certainly feel my age when I have an injury or when I'm like, I'm tired or why am I getting I'm at 5 to sleep. But there's sometimes where it's like, no, I I feel young. And I'm

[1:17:43] know when I coach my son's baseball team, I feel young. I mean, I feel old remember how much fun this can be." And it's nice to be around kids and, you like, "This is nice to be around, you know, younger people, and I'm learning a

[1:17:58] lot from younger groups, and I'm seeing how they're confused in different ways." >> I think there's a lot of age related stereotypes that are sometimes accurate, but we don't need to necessarily, you know, subscribe to them at all times.

[1:18:11] And in some ways you can have also and this is partly the motivation for my book kind of like mentors for aging. And I think when I ask my class who are some people that you really look up to who've aged well or successful aging a lot of

[1:18:25] it comes down to like a grandparent or a parent or an aunt or an uncle. And that share like some genetic overlap with them. But, you know, the stories, the that they're running marathons, but like, oh, we have this recipe or every

[1:18:41] walking and doing this and sometimes it's a public figure. Um, but having these role models is really important and often times it is apparent. So, probably my favorite podcast that I watched recently of yours was with your

[1:18:55] >> right? because you can see this dynamic and you can see like gosh this this is version but they're different in so many ways and kind of you know some people can retire and some people clearly can't and and so I don't think there's any

[1:19:10] secret to successful aging like you have to do this or that but there's certainly some people and I've seen it in my family who can't retire or they have a career shift you know I saw my dad go from being a theoretical physics

[1:19:22] professor to being an editor of a literary arts journal and it's like such a shift, but I think it revived him and allowed him to kind of like you've gone from being a professor to kind of more public outreach and that keeps people

[1:19:35] going and that can happen again at 60 or 70. Um, and so I hope you know there's age discrimination. You're not going to hire a 70-year-old to run your IT department, but I think there are, you know, things that older adults can and

[1:19:49] want to do that will kind of lead to this sense of purpose, which is really important as you get older. Do you map out your future? I mean, do you have u like a three or a fiveyear plan? Um I find that academics tend to operate on

[1:20:04] the 3 to 5 year plan because grants generally are somewhere between three and five years. That's pretty much all we can reasonably predict about where we're going to go with our ideas. We update as we discover things and um and

[1:20:17] so on. But do you ever recall having a plan currently? Do you plan like where you're going? This is just really but as a as a template for people to ask think I was ever sat down and said listen

[1:20:32] got to have a plan and the plan should be put the horizon at three years or >> Yeah. >> Um and it's very hard for me to think

[1:20:44] >> No, I think people often will say in business too the plan you have and I can motivate you. And you know, when I first got this job at UCLA, I was thrilled to leave the cold weather of Toronto and live on the West Coast. But

[1:20:57] I also said, you know, if it doesn't work out, let's see, in 3 to 5 years. So, I don't think I had this specific plan of I have to do this, but I also had a plan like, hey, I'd love to write a book that is accessible and can kind

[1:21:09] of capture the the lessons I've learned. And I didn't put a timeline on that, but was really interested in doing this. And she was very encouraging. and you know out. So I think when you articulate plans there's definitely research saying

[1:21:25] that you can realize them and when other people are thinking that's something you can or should do I think it's it's beneficial but yeah in the academic get grants and publish but I think that

[1:21:38] can also hamper some creative outputs. I don't have a plan of like in 3 to 5 sure it'd be nice to get another grant but maybe if you don't have a grant you can have a little more freedom and flexibility. Um, I'm really interested

[1:21:51] in how, you know, it's a concern now with AI, how people are subjected to a lot of information and a lot of this can be used for scams and fraud. [snorts] >> And so I'm interested in how older adults can be kind of, you know, aware

[1:22:05] of these scams that can take, you know, can be devastating and how we can make kind of the world better for older adults. And when I say older, it's like, you know, we're not that far away from, you know, why why can that self-driving

[1:22:18] car be so appealing to a younger person but not an older person. And if we can accessible to older people, it can simple ways to do it. Some it starts with attitudes about, you know, how do I

[1:22:31] break it? Whereas younger people will just they get a new iPhone and they don't there's no instruction manual. They're just playing around with it. Um, so I'm interested in that. I don't think that has like a publication that I'm

[1:22:44] going to get out of it and maybe there's a grant, maybe there's consulting, but I think it's having a broader kind of approach might might be beneficial. So, these are more abstract goals and hopefully some of them can be realized,

[1:22:57] when I was younger, yeah, I wanted to get tenure at UCLA, right? I was happy to have children and have a house where we could be, you know, centrally located without a long commute. So, I think those were the practical goals. But I

[1:23:10] think as I get older, I feel fortunate that I've achieved, you know, some of comfortable. But there's still things out there that I'm like, are we really ever going to know how memory works? Um, maybe, maybe not. But maybe we can make

[1:23:24] things easier to use or now that we know memory sort of works this way, maybe we can make this technology geared to help us in some meaningful way. >> Well, a comment and then a question. My comment is if anyone needs self-driving

[1:23:36] >> Right. >> Right. I mean if you look at the >> Right. I mean if you look at the accident data um look at the visual data >> I don't want to say legally blind but their peripheral vision is really lousy

[1:23:50] and they're driving and most of driving is peripheral vision >> um so you know for everybody's sake but of course very young people with new licenses they're all you know it's a it's a it's not a a you know a linear

[1:24:04] it's a it's not a a you know a linear distribution of of accidents by age it's a U-shaped function. But the the the other is um nested in my question about whether you set goals is the question of whether setting goals helps us stay

[1:24:21] alive. You know, I I covered before some of the data on these super aers more of the neuroscience anterior midsulate cortex which seems to maintain or >> right >> age and they hold on to their memory

[1:24:35] etc. And what we understand of that structure, it's involved in pushing into friction, pushing oneself to do something that's hard or not up on more and more episodes of the podcast. And I think I teach neuro

[1:24:50] started teaching neuratomy, we didn't know what the anterior midsulate cortex does, but my colleague Joe Parvevesy probed it with electrodes in humans. And every single one they got stimulated. They'd say, "Feels like a big storm is

[1:25:04] lean into it. They would kind of come up in their chair. They, you know, they're getting surgery. So, but they would get physically and mentally activated like, I'm going to I'm going to I can take this. I can do this. And it's very clear

[1:25:19] that that's the brain structure that grows. And so, I feel like going after a goal, having goals, something to look forward to. I wonder whether or not this forward to. I wonder whether or not this is the basic evolutionarily,

[1:25:31] is the basic evolutionarily, you know, hardwired circuitry for if get someplace. If you're trying to get someplace, there's a concept of a future. If there's a concept of a future, well then you plan to be there

[1:25:44] but >> that it might activate literally this kind of will to live and I don't want to sound mystical here but kind of at a cellular level >> because when people don't have plans

[1:25:57] >> there's really no I mean >> you could just enjoy the smell of the roses but that becomes a bit of a closed loop. I don't know many people maybe monks or something who are really tapped into something that just that they just

[1:26:10] want to live in the in the bliss of the moment constantly. A lot of life is that thing happen. >> I mean it's so interesting to look at cellular and then anterior singulate and then super aers and then sense of

[1:26:23] different levels and then >> what we look at in a western culture too is very different than some cultures that age much better than western cultures and maybe there's lessons to be learned there because you know a lot of

[1:26:35] and motivation but the goal is not just to live forever. It's to make the most purpose. And a lot of older adults do want to have this connection to younger people or connection to a hobby or an interest. And it's not as professionally

[1:26:50] driven as it is in kind of midlife. And I think the super ages is really interesting because you know I' I've read about that and I've seen this and I these are not people who said I want to live forever and I'm going to you know

[1:27:02] that that's not their goal. And a lot of them are not people who are like I went to the gym four times a week. they they've built into their, you know, it's the same with blue zones. It's built into their daily life of they eat well

[1:27:14] because that's the food that, you know, they enjoy and that they can find. They exercise not from going to the gym, but from having to walk uphill or on uneven surfaces. So, I think I don't want to say it's an American focus on goals and

[1:27:28] motivation and biohacking and longevity, but if you can build this into your daily life, it's so much easier, right? And then it just becomes, you know, I saw my father bike to work every day. In fact, he wouldn't even call it work

[1:27:40] because he didn't want to make it think like it was work. And I I don't know why which is probably not the best thing to do, but I've been able to set up my life that I bike two miles uphill to work and then two miles downhill. It's probably

[1:27:54] sometimes it's the best time of my day. Sometimes it's when the best ideas come know. [laughter] >> Yeah. I just think the only thing you know only met you today but I I feel like uh uh something's coming out where

[1:28:07] I'm thinking just I just >> having lived in LA a while it's just simple >> you know other cities too in Toronto it's even worse you know um but I think with the super aers it's also resilience

[1:28:19] their lives >> sometimes you know they've had you know easier lives and that can be beneficial in some ways you know having wealth and resilience. You know, you've bounced back. We saw this during CO. We at first

[1:28:34] thought CO is going to be terrible for older people, right? Because they're don't know how to use technology. And [snorts] there's certainly reasons why But what we found, at least at the psychological level, we did some of this

[1:28:48] research, older adults were much more resilient than younger adults. And I through a lot of difficult times being socially isolated, being through probably their first major kind of situation where they can't behave the

[1:29:01] way they're normally doing it. And the older adults were the ones who are like, "Eh, I've lived through X, Y, and Z, wars, financial meltdowns, you know, changes in family structure, deaths of close people." And older adults seem to

[1:29:16] show a lot more resilience here. And um you know when I've interviewed people for for this book it's sometimes the most interesting people you know lived through the Holocaust who are like I appreciate every day you know I I think

[1:29:29] was like when you're going up or downstairs think I'm going up or downstairs. They're very present right? They know if I'm mind wandering or doing something else something can happen. So maybe I shouldn't be mind wandering on

[1:29:44] my bike ride. I should be like that's my >> but you're considerably younger and clearly very me mentally uh aware to be able to to use that time of a friend. He was actually a guest on this podcast. His name is Ryan Suave. He's a a trauma

[1:29:59] a number of people. >> He said occasionally he'll get a a >> He said occasionally he'll get a a patient who uh was suicidal or tried to attempt suicide >> um or you know or who attempted suicide,

[1:30:13] excuse me. uh because of a breakup like in high school or in uh in their 20s. And you know, he said at first when when he would get these people coming through you want to sit this person down and just say, look, like you're you got your

[1:30:28] going to have other opportunities. There are other fish in the sea. But he quickly came to realize that to these what you know by all arguments are still kind of like kids, young adults. um to them it it feels like a loss of the

[1:30:43] that future [clears throat] yet. And when he started approaching it through effective clinically >> to just really acknowledge like yeah it coming to an end. >> They just don't have the perspective of

[1:30:56] and >> found someone else and so it really >> Yeah. >> And because their whole life is up to you know, and I remember thinking like, oh yeah, that makes total sense when you

[1:31:10] suicidality, you know, one hopes that wouldn't be where people would go with a breakup, but as we get older, yeah, we we can integrate over, you know, oh, you know, I'm still here, I'm hard to kill, you know, as I sometimes tell

[1:31:26] downs and >> I'm taking, you know, some heat, I just >> Yeah. >> You know, I'm not resilient. Exactly. You go, "Okay, cool." Like, "What did I

[1:31:38] principles here again." And you know, and then 10 years later, you go, "I'm have I mean, in some ways, you have to go through those struggles to to to realize that, oh, I'm still here. Or in retrospect, it was bad, but now I'm on

[1:31:53] >> or in some cases, it's the best parts of life. This I don't understand. Maybe this is a more memory uh disruption than it is accurate [snorts] experience, whatever that is, but I feel like our emotional selves integrate in a

[1:32:09] in the way that we compare like things really really sucked at a moment, which makes the moments afterwards that just don't suck a little bit so much better. >> there's some adaptation or habituation or whatever and then you look back and

[1:32:22] you go like things are so good because things don't completely suck which is a things to be so you know I need a bunch of stuff it's maybe it's just the that. No, I think there's there's a memory component to that as well. And

[1:32:35] looking at what's called the positivity bias. That as you get older, you're more likely to focus on positive things, positive information, positive events, likely to focus on negative things. And that might be for survival. Um, it might

[1:32:51] not benefit your mental health, but as you say, you know, these are big events you're like, "This is horrible. How am I ever going to get through this?" Well, olds who've, you know, gone through breakups and horrible things that have

[1:33:06] >> Financial losses. You hear about people in the tech and business world, they're like went from so high to so low and then back again and you just go, "Oh my most people would just be devastated and they're like, well, this is the rhythm."

[1:33:19] >> Yeah. And and it's tough, but I think as we get older, you know, we might focus more on the positive things to enhance our mood. And maybe that's what leads to get older. It's not just rosecolored glasses, but it's also saying, you know,

[1:33:32] I'm going to focus on the things that are positive or be around the people that make me feel good. I've also heard a lot of older adults will say, you time for that anymore. You know, I don't want to focus on the negative things or

[1:33:45] [gasps] >> But when we're young, you know, we're all around different people and, you know, might complain about things and maybe that's beneficial. So, you can see the bad things and rise above that. But

[1:33:58] nonlinear changes that you know and I I think there is definitely a memory component and come getting back to that. Why do older adults tell the same story several times? Well, you know, sometimes it's a negative story like I had to walk

[1:34:11] this far to school, but it usually has a positive spin to it. And so maybe we do this is because we have this positivity bias or we want to relay this positive information kind of to wash out some of the negative things that probably

[1:34:24] happened. you know, some of the happier older adults I spent time with in South Florida lived through some of the the worst times in in Eastern Europe, let's say. And I'm like, how how is this possible? And it's, you know, their

[1:34:37] brain changes in ways that might make them look like they're not as sharp as they used to be, but they're telling jokes. They're less inhibited. I learned some of the the dirtiest jokes from these individuals, and I think that

[1:34:49] talk to. And you know, I I love teaching at UCLA and being around students, but older adults. And every once in a while, we have this senior scholars program that, you know, allows older adults to take these undergraduate classes. And to

[1:35:04] me, that's probably the most enriching thing. I teach a class on the psychology of aging. And here in the classroom, there's four older adults. I mean, this is a, you know, a case study. And this year, several of them were therapists.

[1:35:16] had a lot of information to share, but they're even told in the part of it is questions. >> And I thought that's so strange. And in my class, I want them, you know, I assume if they're in astronomy or art

[1:35:29] history, they could be asking tons of questions, but I think this is such a great way to have this kind of intergenerational component. And a lot students, I have two tests, but I don't have a final exam. And I tell them, the

[1:35:41] final exam is the test of life. I know it sounds a little, you know, kind of you learned about aging, you're hopefully going to use in the future. relevant when you're 20, you're not thinking about it. But it was the older

[1:35:55] adults in the class that they often said were, you know, I like to think I'm a good professor, but they learn the most from these older adults. Um, and so I think having more of this intergenerational interaction,

[1:36:07] different cultures, that's built into the community. In the Western culture, with their grandparents in the same household. Um I didn't but the at times I did have with my grandparents were

[1:36:21] genetic overlap with these individuals yet they also have wisdom and knowledge. Some it is dated but I think that can be very beneficial being around older adults. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor Lingo. Lingo

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[1:37:31] hellingo.com/huberman for more information. Terms and conditions apply. Again, that's hellingo.com/huberman. Medical School that I sat in on years ago about neural regeneration, which was

[1:37:47] a topic of study for my lab for a while. And they had a young person uh that year. It was a guy in his 20s who had a spinal cord injury. Came in, talked about his spinal cord injury, talked about what life was like for him before

[1:38:02] and after, how he's thinking about things. And then on a separate lecture there was a older individual who had also had a spinal cord injury and it was striking to see the divergence in attitude. You could look at this as

[1:38:16] tragic or redeeming depending on how you how you think about these things. But um the older gentleman was saying that, you know, he had this injury. He knows he's like, you know, he's lived a lot of life and he's done a lot of things and you

[1:38:33] to focus on what he can do. He's focused on what he can do. And he actually noted, this was some years ago, that he wasn't that much worse off compared to his peers, unless he let himself become a pessimist.

[1:38:47] actually was still doing better than a lot of his um walking able peers. about how, you know, there's just so many things in the in the horizon that

[1:39:00] he really wanted to do that he doesn't have access to, which is really honest discussion and this was of course mainly focused on the biology and limitations of biology to try and overcome regeneration. But they brought

[1:39:14] these um people in because really wanted to highlight the differences in terms of patient need and um >> I thought it it you know this comes to mind now in in this conversation like I think if you acrew enough experiences

[1:39:27] good and bad it does we kind of bucket list life. We're like, "Okay, you know, >> I I did this and I did that and maybe I would have liked more of that, but I definitely didn't want more of that. And, you know, we can kind of bucket

[1:39:41] >> And I never had a bucket list growing up. It would have been very useful like sit down and at any age I guess and just write out what are the things you absolutely don't want to uh leave this life not having done and and try and

[1:39:57] make those happen because god forbid if you have one of these injuries or you stroke out and die or have a heart attack not to sound morbid but then you know you you've done the things and I think that's the real tragedy of when

[1:40:09] people are limited early on and I don't know what became of the younger guy hopefully he um figured it out because I know a lot of people because of that know a lot of people because of that work that um are blind or paralyzed um

[1:40:22] who live very enriched lives with families and all that but it's curious it's like uh I didn't think we'd get to like the meaning of life here purpose purpose in life but we should probably plan and and carry out on those plans

[1:40:37] and not just live by default >> wait till we're older and then try and figure out how we can go longer >> with a little less less pain um and a few uh more memories. I mean it's an interesting case study when you compare

[1:40:49] know what what do you want to get out of life and it's kind of a big picture question and but a lot of older adults will say they have pretty good life satisfaction you know happiness life satisfaction could be similar and

[1:41:02] related and it again it's the midlife people who seem to be lacking but I feel like maybe I'm on the uptick to do more things like hey I really enjoyed that trip to Sedona Arizona I'd

[1:41:15] like to do that again. Sedona is amazing. I just went for the first time. and we were like, "This place is awesome. It's so beautiful. The air feels so good. The light is amazing." >> And I definitely go back. My son and I

[1:41:28] >> Oh, you're a climber. >> Wow. I'm not a climber. I've climbed years ago when he was too young to do that. He wanted to go back and I was really enjoy." And it doesn't necessarily have to be Sedona. You can

[1:41:43] get these. So, I feel like those are the moments that I'm like I'm not sure whether it has to be in Costa Rica or Matador Beach, but I feel like those are the moments that I I really enjoy. Um, you know, before it was like, yeah, I

[1:41:57] really cool. >> But I have friends who fly airplanes and I'm like, you know, I have a family now. I don't need to fly an airplane anymore. shouldn't be riding my bike either in LA. But I think we start to look at like

[1:42:11] what really, you know, captures you and matters. And some of it are like even about drawing earlier. Something I wouldn't have time for when I was 20 or 30. Like I could be spending that time programming a computer or writing

[1:42:24] something. And now that those are very kind of important moments and times um that I enjoy. So yeah, having a sense of purpose I think sharing information. A lot of older adults will say it's really nice to be a mentor. They don't want to

[1:42:38] their job, but they'd love to share experiences or be an educator. And you see big benefits for older adults who volunteer. Um, again, it's correlational, but older adults who are engaged in some sort of, um, kind of

[1:42:52] generativity, like influencing the next generation, uh, feel very connected and and useful. And that's that's something some old adults will say is like, you I'm useful. And I think, you know, certainly how can we, you know, that'll

[1:43:07] be older and be like, well, what are we supposed to do now? >> perhaps. Yeah. >> Really useful to almost everyone in a family has some unique skill set they can contribute. Like like my stepdad is

[1:43:22] >> he's a really impressive carpenter and with tools and he built my niece's there's something to fix like he's the man, >> you know, or something to build. his tool shed is in insane. It's incredible.

[1:43:35] >> I think grandchildren, I mean, it's family. People will often say when life, what were the most important things? And they'll say, you know, family rituals. So there's Thanksgiving or Passover, when everyone got together

[1:43:48] and got to doing something. And so those are kind of some very important memories. And I think if you realize you can also influence the next generation research, again it's correlational, shows that people who spend, you know, 5

[1:44:02] hours a week with their grandchildren have improved memory. So that seems we interesting that those who spend more than 20 hours a week don't show this >> They're exhausted or they're in an unfortunate situation where they're

[1:44:17] forced into child care. There's a single parent or someone's incarcerated. So that yes being around younger people or doing some meaningful interaction whether it's mentoring whether it's grandchildren can be can be and I think

[1:44:31] it's birectional you know that the children learn from it. I had I didn't but I have very vivid memories of one grandfather showing me how you can clean like science and it was like that's

[1:44:44] know there's all sorts of questions I had. Um and and so I think that sort of for you know the grandparent and the grandchild. So >> I think about what really enriches one's life. Um in addition to deliberately

[1:45:00] trying to build memories you know the the decision to not fly planes and but maybe to get out to Sedona or Matador or Big Su or something like that. Yose I'm want to have an amazing experience in life. It's very low cost. If you can get

[1:45:14] yourself to Yoseite, drive up to the high country and hike Clouds Rest. It's >> It's the best thing you'll ever do. >> But get there early because you'll be coming down in the dark if you don't.

[1:45:26] along the way. >> Amazing place. I'm putting a big plug for national parks cuz I love Yusede. The discussion you had with Wooden, you The discussion you had with Wooden, you said uh the two takeaways that he um

[1:45:39] offered were love and balance. and then ironically he got harmed and eventually died from a fall because his pride got in the way. Um, was there anything else in that conversation that didn't get into your book or that um it's just

[1:45:54] about? If not, no big deal. >> I mean, first of all, it wasn't the fall that led to his death. It was, you know, he had a fall. He didn't press his leg. He he was resilient. he bounced back and um you know eventually you know I think

[1:46:09] nearly 99 is when he passed away so several years after the fall. That was such an inspiring interview and I remember when I first got my job at UCLA you know growing up at Canada I'll admit the reason I knew UCLA was the

[1:46:22] basketball team, the football team. I remember watching the Rose Bowl and >> Okay, many people throughout the world think that UCLA is a basketball team. That's they I'm not sure that they know that. Um,

[1:46:34] >> There's a school there, right? >> But I also thought, gosh, that place sure looks nice in the winter. >> And um, and so I it was I was thankful to be connected to Coach Wooden who actually used to lecture in a in a

[1:46:47] leadership class once a year and um, he was very interested in, you know, teacher. So I think this sort of generativity um you know he was so kind and thoughtful and then you come into his

[1:47:02] you know it's a two-bedroom condo in Inino this is not how a famous basketball coach would live now and he had no problem with that anything like that >> I think partly he didn't have and led a

[1:47:15] very fulfilling life in the absence of that whereas now you see in professional sports and all you know wealth can lead to all sorts of problems but um so I was impressed with that and just all the, you know, the pride he had and he, you

[1:47:30] know, sharing the the love and balance quote I thought was was helpful and I capture not just what Wooden said but others that what I call the ABCs of successful aging. It's a kind of an easier way to and a is is an attitude

[1:47:44] having a positive attitude about what can happen as you get older. And actually, more recent research shows that those who have a positive attitude live longer, they're less likely to develop dementia. And so, it's probably

[1:47:56] maybe less stress, better behavior, but more recent research shows that if you have a more negative attitude overall of what can happen as you get older, but a more positive attitude about what you can do, your own personal kind of agency

[1:48:10] over the process that leads to kind of longer life. >> It's the friction. It's the balance >> about that. You don't want it things too easy. You don't want them too hard like landscape too easy or too hard. It's it,

[1:48:23] been tracking during our conversation. It's the the delta. It's the difference between where you're at versus where you'd like to be and and >> not letting that turn you into a cynic or a kerogen, but like but feeling that

[1:48:38] kick our feet up and Yeah. >> Uh all the time, bad things can happen as you get older, but I'm going to have to rise above it adapt component. So, you know, attitudes, but also adapting because a

[1:48:52] time. And a lot of the older adults I've talked to said, you know, had to adapt to changes, whether it's physical, whether it's mental. Um, so I think, you know, to make call a adapt and also attitude is very psychological. And then

[1:49:06] b is balance, which is what we've talked about already. You know, I don't think extremists. They're not like running marathons and eating, you know, only blueberries. Um, it's usually something like, yeah, I just do this or that and

[1:49:20] component. >> I think there is a genetic component, Like, it's not like you need four cups of coffee a day to, you know, prevent level of balance and some, you know, genetic component. But um and then C is

[1:49:37] often overlooked as a you know from a psychological standpoint is connection and that's also what Wooden was emphasizing you know be around the people you love do the things you love. Um social connection I think we learned

[1:49:49] like oh my gosh I can't be around people or I can see them on Zoom but it's different all of a sudden it hits home that um social connection is important. people, you know, how they want to engage in it. But I think that's often

[1:50:03] lost sadly because of technology. You know, you can have tons of Facebook friends, but how many friends could you call up once a week to ask how their day is or their week is gone is probably limited. And as we get older, our social

[1:50:17] circle tends to shrink. Uh people move away, people pass away. But some fewer relationships can actually be improved. And I think that's again an interesting kind of nonlinear change that you know when we're young we know

[1:50:31] lots of people and we're interacting a lot in a social way but as we get older it's those more meaningful kind of relationships that are important. >> Yeah. The connection piece comes up again and again. And I think it, you

[1:50:44] know, as we talk about all this, like it must be kind of daunting for people in their 20s and 30s now because there's like all this stuff that you can do to make yourself better that frankly what we weren't aware of back when. It's

[1:50:57] >> like, oh, I like running, so I ran. Want to get stronger, so I lifted weights. I >> PhD in neuroscience, so I did it. Like I just sort of followed my interest. there wasn't this idea that you could like fundamentally transform how long you

[1:51:12] going to feel at a given age. But so I kind of wonder if it's both good and bad. Um I don't want to undercut the idea that we can um strive for those things, but I also don't want to promote the idea that that we should all be

[1:51:26] like when we're 70. I mean, the the unit of life being the day, I think, is um true in the circadian sense. Our biology resets every 24 hours. >> Having recently um pulled the first allnighter in a while to finish some

[1:51:41] stuff with >> with my producer and friend Rob. We it's been like okay we'll go to two and then at two I was like I get then we're been a while. It was fun to just be able you know as much as I talk about the

[1:51:55] >> Yeah. >> Um it's like that was cool. Like haven't done that in a while still got it. It hurt the next day. You get a nap. Next day you sleep a little longer. Like, you know, I gonna did I shorten my life? I

[1:52:07] remember that. >> You'll remember and you're contributing is important. You know, this is a book. This is something that you want to make sure it's accurate and, you know, thoughtful. And, you know, I think when

[1:52:19] you feel good. You're probably getting a lot of, mechanism kicking in. >> Yeah, it was so much fun. This is why I like late night out or all nighter, as long as it's for the right reasons, you

[1:52:32] >> Yeah. >> As you can tell, I'm I'm really intrigued by this idea that there's something about pushing ourselves. And as Wooden pointed out, there's also something about coming off the gas,

[1:52:45] those things. Like life is an oscillation. It's a circadian push push push and then being able to come off the gas. And >> it's an art. It's not a It's not a science. There's science there, but it's

[1:52:59] it's not trivial like um and it actually raises this question uh for me. You >> you're an interesting guy. You know, you you're young in my opinion, but I'm 50 also. So, you study memory, but you seem to have a genuine interest in care for

[1:53:14] the older generation. Like, how are we going to take care of them in the AI them? Um is that something that's always been intrinsic to you? you know, but like what's the obsession with older folks? It's cool. It's very

[1:53:29] nurturing, but it's not typical. You know, most people aren't thinking about us as a species to think about the younger generation, right? We just have >> what I think is a healthy reflex to like how can we make things better for kids

[1:53:43] >> Yeah. >> But you you're unique in this way. you know, you study memory in the age cohort that uh has arguably some of the worst >> I think it's maybe growing up around a lot of older adults. Again, you know, I

[1:53:58] grew up in Canada partly, but also in Florida and I was around a lot of very interesting older people, you know, kind of in their prime of their retirement life, uh, who'd spend a lot of time with me and, you know, I have aging parents.

[1:54:11] I've seen that. So I I don't know if it's also like a respect for older adults, but it's also I mean maybe it's I don't want to say egocentric, but in a be there one day. >> So you're making the discoveries that

[1:54:24] >> I hope so. I hope so. And I think it's an investment. You know, we invest a lot in our children and it's, you know, incredibly important and to be nurturing parents and, you know, have government that can help, you know, with education.

[1:54:38] people are well you're on social security or you're retired and you know and I think culturally there's you know other cultures that treat older adults with more respect. Um and so I don't know what the reason is and you know I

[1:54:53] teach a class on aging at UCLA. It's a popular class but it's not as popular as the class on relationships or you [laughter] know things that I think younger people would be interested in. But often times after students take it,

[1:55:06] be interested in aging, but I'm actually, you know, now that I think interesting to see how my parents age. And I'm like, well, you know, give you'll remember something from this class. And I think maybe that's my early

[1:55:21] exposure made me think this is really kind of an interesting thing that my grandparents, they would forget, you know, my get my name confused with my brother's name, but they could remember the price of bananas, right? So, how are

[1:55:34] they remembering this very detailed information versus forgetting things that are presumably important? And I think it comes down to focus. It comes down to, you know, the era you grew up in. And so, I don't see it as very

[1:55:46] are not different than younger adults in that they're like, that's the old and this is the new, but it's this progressive change. And in some ways, I what are they going to be like when they're 80? What habits are going to

[1:56:00] change? And I think in some ways, there's a lot of things that you could see it kind of as a seed that just gets more pronounced as we get older, but regulating emotions and doing things that when we're young, we're not so good

[1:56:14] at. And we often think like, how can we make older people, you know, better by making them look younger? And in fact, I sometimes think, gosh, how could we instill some of that? Not just the wisdom, but make younger people feel

[1:56:27] like older people in some ways, kind of from a psychological standpoint, you less likely to take risks. >> You know, it's the whole like if you know, if I know knew then what I know now. I It's why it's interesting that

[1:56:40] Wooden said that the two most important uh words in life are love and balance. I have a friend who's a psychologist and uh he said you know the two most are if and only and especially when they're next to each other and it's

[1:56:54] interesting to watch my mind sometimes go like if only this or if only that. >> we can default there and it's >> it's dreadfully um useless

[1:57:06] >> and and maybe even destructive. >> Um so I >> I encourage myself to you know watch out for the if only thinking. It's it's it's >> You know, we run a lot of simulations in our brain like what if I did this or

[1:57:19] met this person or what if I took this job? And I think at some point when you're young, maybe that's helpful like trying to figure out what would work out well, these things have happened and I've learned from them. Um, and yeah, I

[1:57:35] to think of that as what if, what if this happened? and you can get yourself that happens and what if you know the world can be an incredibly dreary place >> um when you when you think of it that way but it's also amazing to see and

[1:57:50] maybe that's why I'm interested in older adults it's like look these people 70 80 >> I'm not just looking at the 90-year-olds who are doing incredible things I'm looking at the 90-year-olds who are you perhaps at peace with themselves you

[1:58:02] um talking about things that they want to talk about I you know I enjoyed your father's podcast partly because I'm like, here's a guy who's not afraid of saying some things and appreciate that. Maybe maybe it's not always, you know,

[1:58:15] >> He's he has an irreverence to him. I mean, he's very um polite and uh mean, he's very um polite and uh believes in etiquette, but um he doesn't let people constrain him. >> Yeah. And you know, I I just found that,

[1:58:29] have a lot of science in them, but he had a lot of you know, things that made Could we test that? Is that really how you know you curiosity one of our more recent studies has shown that as we get older you know memory does decline in in

[1:58:45] many ways but um older adults can remember prices let's say that makes sense so you know the bananas being you know $2.99 but as soon as we say bananas are $1849 that just doesn't make sense and older

[1:58:57] that's something we were talking about that the benefit of forgetting things that just don't fit your schemas that just don't make sense where younger adults um you know a lot of undergraduates will be like you know I

[1:59:10] highlighted 80% of the textbook why did I get a C on the exam it's this inability to kind of selectively focus on what's important and I' I've seen that even in myself like you know when I was younger I'd be taking notes on

[1:59:23] realize you know what let me sit back and look for the overarching themes that connect things and that's almost how I did well in psychology is I'm like >> okay some of these findings make sense and so I can remember it that way. But

[1:59:36] some of them are counterintuitive and a lot of this like people aren't always know, all these biases people have. remember it that way. The things that made sense and the things that didn't

[1:59:48] make sense. And that's kind of how you can organize things. And I think that as you get older is knowing what to overlook and kind of knowing what to adults, even though they'll say, "My

[2:00:02] As long as you can remember the things that are kind of critical, um, that's what's important. And so, in this study on curiosity, we found that older adults tend to remember the things that they're most curious about, but they're also

[2:00:15] first place. >> Sounds great. >> Honestly, it sounds great, right? >> Yeah. I can't wait. Right. because um I remember certain people in certain things, but there's a lot of stuff that

[2:00:29] email. Yeah, >> luckily not through my daily experience, that stuff. >> And it captures your attention and all last 10 minutes go? I've been reading about this and now I'm remembering this

[2:00:41] >> Um so I think if you can prune these things and as you get older maybe you realize I've even realized, gosh, I forget this. I need to focus more. It's I, you know, I'm interested in this. Let's put more resources and time and

[2:00:56] energy into that. It takes me longer to learn a piano piece than, you know, my >> You play piano. >> I try, but you know, I see my daughter And I'm like, I know I'm not going to be like that, but I can be more selective

[2:01:09] about what I try and learn, what's in my wheelhouse, and what's just beyond it. >> Developmental plasticity is amazing, right? I don't know how old she is, but >> yeah, she's young. I've, you know, two daughters and a son and I see them all

[2:01:21] excelling. Like my older daughter is like, wow, her cognitive skills are of processing. She might even be a better driver than I am. Um, you know, she's good at planning things. My daughter playing piano, it's like, gosh,

[2:01:35] if I could have those skills now, how I would practice more. My son will hurt himself in baseball and I'm like, he's out for three weeks. Three days later, he's pitching again. Right? So, those are things where it's like, yes, aging

[2:01:47] sucks in some ways. I'll be upfront about it. But I think when you 50, 60, it's like, yeah, that's, you know, it's hard to recover from injuries. It takes you maybe longer to learn something. But the things you

[2:02:00] really do care about, you can use all this kind of knowledge and wisdom and metacognition to focus on kind of what matters the most. So it's almost as if matters the most. So it's almost as if as we are able to do less with less pain

[2:02:14] or just do less attitude starts to become more and more important. That's >> yeah I think that's definitely the perspective and you know this is built on some developmental theories of social you know social learning but also

[2:02:29] compensation. you know that as you get older maybe you're not going to be doing all these things and scuba diving and hiking but you'll be like you know that one hike I really enjoy I want to be able to do it once a week

[2:02:41] the things you like but you're not doing kind of the wide range of them and another related theory is you know um socio emotional selectivity theory Laura Karstensson at Stanford another perspective saying that as we get older

[2:02:55] our kind of our our mindset shifts that we don't have as much time to live so we important. Whereas when you're young, it's very abstract to say save for when you're 60? It's like that what am I going to do next week? Right? But her

[2:03:11] different time perspectives, they make different choices. So if you unfortunately tell someone who's younger that they only have 5 to 10 years left to live, they're going to make choices very much like older adults too.

[2:03:23] we're thinking these things, but you know, as you get older, maybe you that matter the most. Maybe I won't worry so much about the things that I used to worry about all the time. Um, and that can be kind of a healthy way to

[2:03:38] approach life. This might sound a little uh mystical, but I've always wondered if barring accident or injury whether people have some unconscious knowledge

[2:03:50] about how long they're going to live. Um you I grew up near Steve Jobs. He used worked to get rollerblade wheels and things like that. And he was around. He was a posttock. You'd still see him walking through downtown Palto in the

[2:04:03] once a week. We'd take a walk together and we'd see Steve. He was, you know, passed away I think in 2015 or something like that. Does that sound about right? then. He was going through his various treatments. But

[2:04:18] >> you know, if you listen to his biography with Walter Isacson, um written by Walter Isacson, it I mean it was very clear that he had a mission, he was on it, that life was you had to maximize on your life, that you couldn't compromise.

[2:04:30] And okay, that led to some kind of high friction personality traits in him, too. But >> I don't think anyone would argue uh that in what he built. It transformed the world. I mean, most everyone listening

[2:04:43] to this has an Apple product in their vicinity as I say this, right? >> And it almost seemed like he had some deeper knowledge. He wasn't going to live that long. And when I think about like the 27 club of you know amazing

[2:04:56] like the 27 club of you know amazing artists dying at 27 and just like it's either packed into a shorter period of time, a medium amount of time or a longer time. Now, of course, accidents, injuries, and things can happen um to

[2:05:09] but I wonder like if we have a sense based on our parents, our grandparents, around a while >> or because it really seemed to benefit him to have this attitude about life like you get one life.

[2:05:22] >> You have to live it on your terms. >> Um you don't want to compromise your soul and your your your heart and you just go for it. Mhm. sort of live life as if it's going to go on forever.

[2:05:35] >> And for them it seems to go on a long time and it seems to be kind of a lower slower arc. I'm not saying one is better than the other, right? It's impossible >> uh except >> you know to compare that the the

[2:05:47] objectively just say okay one live shorter pack more in one live longer maybe didn't have as intense a life. Do you think there there could be something in our biology that we have some awareness based on our genetic

[2:06:00] fingerprint that you know I probably got about doing well in their 80s but you know I probably have about 90 100 years if I take care of myself so I'm going to live that way. Yeah, it's a interesting

[2:06:14] conjecture and in some ways we probably do know like our lifespan is about this things can happen and I've seen you know from my own family you know I can take and sadly my mother passed away when she was young my father's still alive so I

[2:06:29] think I have this perspective of life can be short and when people are like I'm 50 but I haven't done this this and this part of me is like I'm 50 and I've made it this far I'm pretty happy with things but of course you know, your

[2:06:42] don't know, in the case of these, you know, high performing individuals, maybe their last, and they want to stay up all night and transform the world. I think a

[2:06:54] night and transform the world. I think a lot of the super aes >> They're more chill, but maybe it's not intentional. It's like, I just don't

[2:07:06] want to, you know, ruin tomorrow by not sleeping a lot tonight. Um so you know a lot of people will say what's the secret to successful aging and um I think the secret is not to look for one thing probably you know we've talked a lot

[2:07:19] about you know exercise sleep and a lot of people say it's moderation like it doesn't mean like don't drink coffee or drink seven cups a day it's like if you can realize maybe you don't want it every day get you know eight hours of

[2:07:33] sleep well not every night clearly pulling an all nighter might have been a investment and >> do it again for a very long time. that. You're like, I don't want to be editing books late at night once a week,

[2:07:45] right? But once every few years, especially if it might pay off, that's I've made with myself. So >> the friendship I'm realizing as you say there >> is what kept me out of like, you know,

[2:07:58] it's fun. It reminds me being in graduate school. We used to run imaging experiments all night. And you get pretty loopy somewhere between 3 and 5 a.m. and you just acknowledge like, "Oh, here we go again." Like like mild

[2:08:11] psychosis cuz you are a little bit psychotic and in a sleep-d deprived fun." >> Maybe that's why people say college is through a lot of things like that, staying up late, working hard,

[2:08:24] figure out that, but there's a social component. You're doing it with other like the Steve Jobs thing or even when I talk to older adults, they're like, I like this part of my work life when it was a challenge and we had to travel

[2:08:37] wouldn't say it was relaxing and it's not something they want to revisit. And it's interesting if you ask people, "What age would you want to go back to?" Not a lot of people will say 20 or 15. It's usually kind of closer to midlife,

[2:08:51] everything's kind of firing on all cylinders then. Your cognition's still pretty good. your family's still around, you know, you have your job, you're reinforced by a lot of things, but it's not going back to this age, you know,

[2:09:03] when you're like 20, 25. >> Any [snorts] experiments that your laboratory is doing now that you can even just tell us about the design of the experiment, if not the results? >> Yeah. Well, we're we're we've done some

[2:09:15] something that from a lifespan perspective is interesting. We've been measuring different types of curiosity. One is known as state curiosity and one is known as trait curiosity >> and trait curiosity is just in general

[2:09:28] are you a curious person do you you know kind of get into things and have trouble think a lot of you know people can have but as you get older that tends to decline with age which I thought was kind of perplexing because I you know a

[2:09:42] lot of curious people but we found that levels of state curiosity when I give you some interesting bit of information but I don't give you the answer if it's something you care about that actually increases with age your level of

[2:09:54] >> We think this is interesting because it probably guides our memory as we get the things we care about and if you're curious especially so and there's probably some neurochemical pathway that is still engaged even though we know all

[2:10:09] age. So that's one and we've been testing it with trivia questions, you control over. But I think it has implications for lifelong learning that if you're really interested in hiking or bird watching or skateboarding, that

[2:10:22] might still percolate when you're 70 or 80, which I think is really interesting. is kind of the flip side of the curiosity, which could be a double-edged sword, is that I mentioned scams and fraud, right? That's like if it's almost

[2:10:36] >> [snorts] >> As soon as someone calls you with an offer that's too good to be true or limited time or something, it's that thing you always wanted and now it's at this price or worse, you know, we

[2:10:50] kidnapped your granddaughter and don't, you know, you need to pay this amount of money and they she doesn't want you to call mom and dad and all of a sudden you hear her voice on the line and she's saying, "Please help me." All of a

[2:11:02] >> People are running those scams. >> People are running and that's an old people are posting things on Facebook and all of a sudden their voice is to a grandparent who's like oh my gosh I need to help this person you know my

[2:11:16] loved one and it's preying on you know socio emotional selectivity theory that we focus on family and feelings and emotions and older adults get caught by this and AI has just made this even worse um because you're going to get

[2:11:29] phone you could get a phone call from Steve Jobs that sounds just like Steve not around and so we're looking at How as we get older are we able to distinguish between kind of this fake information and what's real? And it's

[2:11:43] not just older adults who are, you know, prone to this. It's younger people too be paying attention to something, more likely to get identity theft. Whereas older adults, they have more money, they more to lose. And so I think that's

[2:11:58] that's on the more practical side of being able to identify how, you know, there's a psychological component, you know, emotions again [snorts] that, you know, might engage older adults more so,

[2:12:12] interested in, you know, oh, my loan is going to be forgiven if I give some information. Great. Um, so it's kind of using psychological mechanisms um in a interested in how we can try and kind of prevent that.

[2:12:28] psychologists out there who are engaged in this this kind of form of fraud. Um, so that's another area of of interest and trying to design experiments but implications. >> It's cool. You have a lot of care for

[2:12:43] protector. >> That's really great. You know, we had a lot of discussions on this podcast about, you know, youth and um and and everybody, you know, every age, but um I don't recall a conversation with anyone

[2:12:57] um much less a scientist who's interested in uh protecting uh older folks. Yeah, I know you thought about and maybe you can tell us what this wisdom thing is about, right? I mean, it's like I feel like uh um I'm not

[2:13:11] trying to be um facitious here when I say, you know, there seems to be a kind say, you know, there seems to be a kind of transformation of of advice from just advice to wisdom after somebody dies,

[2:13:24] around, it sounds like advice and then they die and it's like wisdom, you know? it, but it does seem like we look at knowledge from people that have passed >> um as different >> like uh I haven't read much about

[2:13:38] wouldn't like basketball, but I'm I like >> um track enough that I read um you know uh the book about Bowererman, the coach up at Oregon, like the men of Oregon is amazing coaches that was much more of a mentor and teacher. He made all his

[2:13:54] runners get um jobs >> outside of school while in school and >> Yeah. >> And he would place them in uh not always manual labor jobs, but he made sure that they understood that the town that they

[2:14:08] university and a you know, he was like took the time to do this stuff, right? And he was a hard-nosed guy, but you know, so you you but I often wonder as I when he was alive, was was everyone revering him?" Because as soon as you

[2:14:22] It puts you in >> the one advantage of dying, you know, your your words move from uh advice to wisdom. What is that? >> I think Wooden got a lot of play for his wisdom. He retired at an earlier age

[2:14:35] than most people do. He didn't need to. He didn't um I don't think he made as But I think you're right. It's interesting how knowledge goes into wisdom. And I think even when I was thinking of like my own interest in in

[2:14:50] wisdom and aging is, you know, I had an older math teacher who also was my basketball coach and I think he was formative when I think of, you know, why "Listen,

[2:15:02] year if you don't put the time in to the time into basketball." [laughter] And he was very clear about that. And I was like, he said, "You have tremendous potential in calculus." He didn't say

[2:15:15] kind of saying like you need to work harder. The motivation is there. I've had older rabbis who've given me advice, you know, growing up that I, you know, you know, growing up that I, you know, not even being religious then still

[2:15:28] resonates with me. And so I think, you know, even at the practical level, the wisdom sometimes it's nice to hear it from the horse's mouth. You can read this cute little quote or something and that that's reasonable. And then I think

[2:15:41] wisdom also has a very practical kind of application. So you know Sully know the plane I don't know if you've history is that you know a plane takes off from New York City and both engines

[2:15:55] go out and he's over New York City and he has to engage in an emergency landing and he has to So who do you want? Do you want a younger pilot who has faster reaction times, better memory, or do you want an older pilot who has more

[2:16:09] experience flying but has never landed a plane on water? And we know how the story ends thankfully. But most people would probably, you know, as I asked my Where, you know, where is the wisdom? Where is the knowledge? You know, if

[2:16:22] you're the faster pilot, maybe you turn around and land at an airport. That makes more sense. But Sully eventually decided that he had to make this water landing. And he said the reason he knew he could pull this off is he used to fly

[2:16:34] gliders, you know, and he said the principles are the same, but it's going physics and weight [snorts] management. But he said he felt like he'd made a But he said he felt like he'd made a number of um investments over the years

[2:16:49] that he could make one enormous withdrawal basically landing this plane an amazing feat. >> That's wild. it's a dramatic Hollywood and there's a movie about it as well, but I think it's

[2:17:04] a a nice illustration of you can accumulate all this knowledge not just so you apply what you've learned. It's you're you're having to, you know, transform that knowledge saying now I'm going to apply it in this one emergency

[2:17:16] situation. So maybe that's the difference between, you know, knowledge which is like I know so much and then wisdom of like how to carry it out or when it's appropriate. It does help when the coaches have played, right? Like

[2:17:28] >> but some of the best coaches are the ones who are the worst. You know, Tommy Lorta, you know, all these people who like they struggled and they've seen it coaching. Um, and maybe that's the same with older adults. Uh, you know, again,

[2:17:41] these two older adults who took my class who are therapists. You know, it's like to see a 20-year-old or would you want to see a 50 or 60 year old? Right? It difference in what they bring to the table.

[2:17:55] Nowadays, I think a lot of people are going to say chat GPT, >> which I, you know, I've found great use of AI in the self- testing thing, not looking for knowledge, but having chat GPT generate a self self test, you know,

[2:18:11] test me on my knowledge of >> something. Um, awesome. Because I, as we mic, you know, self testing is one of the best ways to learn information, realize, ah, I got that wrong. I didn't know that. And that's that's the delta.

[2:18:25] you're at and where you want to be as opposed to just reciting things or down. Although I do that also, but I know a lot of people are going to the internet for answers. And on the one hand we could say well those answers are

[2:18:41] hand we could say well those answers are the synthesis of a lot of wise people potentially but you could say like give I would like the integrated advice of Mahatma Gandhi would you know Jane Goodall and um

[2:18:55] >> you know whoever and uh for this particular situation you know and make I don't want you to do that. It's a great question. I've I've tried, you children are in terms of using AI, but I'd love to be like, answer this like an

[2:19:10] 80-year-old would. How would you present it differently if you were older versus much more information than I'm like, wow, that's great. Can you summarize? I like, can you summarize this? Can you sometimes it misses things and sometimes

[2:19:25] it's good but um but yeah it's really fascinating how how that sort of synthesis can be so transforming and you know even my son's like why do I have to learn this when I can just ask AI now and it used to be when I was a kid why

[2:19:38] look it up in an encyclopedia right it's like the information is always going to be there but it's like how you're going to use it kind of in an informed way and I always say could you imagine if the next president said you know I don't

[2:19:51] know our foreign policy with Mexico, but I could look it up. I was like, well, you want to know a little bit about the foreign polic like friend or foe or have some basic level. And where would you look it up? Like

[2:20:04] >> are you do you have aids that you trust? Do you have sources that you trust? these details, but you need to know kind of some general knowledge. And usually details. It's like you've learned all these details in neuroscience 20 years

[2:20:18] ago that you've probably forgotten, but it informs how you interpret neuroscience findings today. >> Yeah, I'm admittedly like such a nerd. I have this textbook. There's a really great new textbook. I'm didn't didn't

[2:20:30] Liein Low wrote a principles of neurobiology textbook that not as beefy that is >> out of Colombia, but I'm a west coast >> Yeah. Yeah,

[2:20:44] it front to back. And of course, I recognize every line, right? Cuz this is the area I've spent all these years in, but I I had not thought about a lot of a little differently. And maybe I'm lying to myself, but

[2:20:56] enrichment in this. I don't know what it something that's going to come of this. >> I know it, but maybe I'm just defaulting to the thing that's easiest and maybe I should be, you know, looking maybe I

[2:21:09] >> It's almost like nostalgia. you're going back to you remember learning this. It's also beautiful. It's more fun because now you're like, I haven't thought about it to the other things I've been thinking about. So, it's like going back

[2:21:22] to a language you're familiar with or a city you're familiar with. The big question is, are we deluding ourselves into thinking that the brain somehow gets better as we age? Like, is this a story we're telling ourselves so that we

[2:21:36] can um you know, hold on to more? Obviously if we do the right things which you've described in your book and today you know get a bit more maybe a today you know get a bit more maybe a lot more uh meaning and experience or in

[2:21:49] of development where there's a you know core conflict at every stage of life you become young adults neuroplasticity continues throughout the lifespan maybe and I certainly prefer this answer maybe our brains get better in certain ways

[2:22:06] that afford us access to life experience, internal feelings of well-being and peace and things that are outsized in comparison to what we can experience when we're

[2:22:19] young. I like I like that and like maybe we do get better in certain ways as we but maybe it's hard to say like what's better or what's worse. It's like this is a qualitative difference and if your expectation of old age is quite low and

[2:22:34] like that or you know I'm not going to run as fast as I used to or maybe I won't be scuba diving but hey it can actually be very meaningful it might that'll allow you to get there and be there in a you know mobile way a way

[2:22:49] that you'll enjoy it. >> Yeah. So maybe instead of striving to be a super aager we should strive to be um super content. >> I think there's a quote people say like, you know, aging is better than the

[2:23:02] >> Is youth lost on the young though? We're going to fire back and forth. >> I definitely feel like there's times where I'm like, wow, maybe I shouldn't let's revise that >> because of your son's shoulder.

[2:23:14] you can do when you're younger and you don't even appreciate it. You don't even yesterday, but it doesn't hurt today." It's like, h, that's months for me. stressful. It can be but I'm not sure at that time it's relative to what and um

[2:23:31] of challenges with younger people today and you know going through co and so on but I've also seen >> kind of a more focus on mental health daughters they're like I'm going to go for a walk when I was 17 I wasn't just

[2:23:45] going for a walk I was like walking to get somewhere or you know running to get of like maybe I'll take care of myself or maybe I'll listen to that podcast while I'm walking. It's like, wow, that seems like very wise. And so, I'm

[2:23:58] impressed. And I hope that, you know, those sorts of habits as you develop them earlier can stay with you and maybe buffer in this midlife where it's like, I always have to be busy. I can't, you know, stop and and think about things.

[2:24:10] And I think maybe that's why my interest or even obsession with aging is to be that seem to be doing pretty well and I really enjoy being around them. How can I be like them? And oh, it so happens they're older adults. But, you know, if

[2:24:23] "This this group of people are really cool and interesting and kind of quirky. Maybe I'll live here." And to me, that might be what older age can be. And sure, they're sometimes frail and have to rely on other people, but that's not

[2:24:37] always such a bad thing if you have the right structure in place. grateful that you would come here today and share your knowledge, your wisdom with us. Um, your book, I didn't know you were going to give me a book today.

[2:24:50] Better with age. I'll I'm going to read it. The psychology of successful aging. books because clearly you've gathered more knowledge since then. But um it's a rare find that uh somebody is doing really interesting science and their

[2:25:05] work is immediately applicable and that it taps into a segment of our population that exists everywhere in the world but that frankly doesn't get quite as much attention research attention as um other areas. I know there's a big interest in

[2:25:20] longevity. there's a big interest in in aging and preserving what we have. But things, uh you clearly study other aspects of you know what's unique and great about people, you know, 50, dare I say, and and above and and what we can

[2:25:35] all learn. Um because if we're lucky enough to live into those decades, we're knowledge. So, thanks for coming here today. Let's let's do it again as as >> Thank you. Thanks for getting the word

[2:25:50] out. It's really um wonderful to hear kind of how to digest this and gives me as we think about this. >> Great. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. >> Thank you for joining me for today's discussion with Dr. Alan Castell. To

[2:26:04] find a link to his book, Better with Age: The Psychology of Successful Aging, caption. If you're learning from and or enjoying this podcast, please subscribe to our YouTube channel. That's a terrific zerocost way to support us. In

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