Classic+ Changes Nobody Discusses — Full Breakdown & Transcript

[00:02] >> Well, no one's talking about it then I'm not talking about it. Um, I feel like we've talked about everything. Transmog, flying mounts, content, classes, class spec combos, professions, PvP ideas. Like, bro, is

[00:18] there anything that no one's talked about? I actually don't know. I actually no one's talking about? >> New content. That's the whole idea of the plus version of it. It should be vanilla that continues on the story that

[00:31] we know and adds to the world in meaningful ways. And there are plenty of additions that we're all expecting such as new zones, new dungeons, new raids, new PvP events, all that kind of good stuff. But beyond that, there are

[00:43] this conversation so often. There are a lot of half-finished systems, dead zones, and mechanics that never really got a proper look in vanilla because back then the developers were very much just doing stuff which they felt was

[00:56] cool. And they got it right a lot of the time. But over the years, I feel as though there's one or two things which could be better or could be built on a bit more than they are in our current vanilla. I want to go over a few changes

[01:08] which I think could be interesting in a vanilla setting which are a bit less obvious than just the usual you hear about of new raid or zone. So, for me, these are some of the less obvious changes which vanilla could potentially

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[02:52] >> something that almost every druid, paladin, and shaman has felt at some point in time. And that's having an item slot which does practically nothing relic slot, the one that holds your idols, librams, and totems. They weren't

[03:06] even added into the game until patch 1.10, you know. That's right towards the classes just had, well, not >> Honestly, Willie, not a bad suggestion. >> Honestly, Willie, not a bad suggestion. No one is talking about that.

[03:23] actual like relics and stuff. Yeah, yeah, sure. You know, you know, I didn't I didn't think of it. >> thing there. Eventually, you get to that one quest in the Eastern Plaguelands and put Eagan's Blaster in there and then

[03:36] never use it. But, it wasn't until much later on when you started doing dungeons or raids where you actually got an item here. I mean, sure, in vanilla, you have to level up a bit before you earn certain items such as your helm, some

[03:48] >> Exactly. Like, you don't want a situation where you just get like a libram at level one, right? But like a cool quest chain at level 40, or maybe say 50, or even say 44, you know, the kind of the it gets kind of stale around

[04:03] Um make it feel epic, or like 30 even, like this delayed gratification. It's not just like here you go, full greens, be cool. >> Wait till you literally end game before

[04:17] you get them, the thing just feels a bit odd, to be honest. Classic Plus has a pretty easy fix here, just put more relics in the game at an earlier level. I'm sure people playing these three classes would appreciate it. Here's

[04:29] relic idea as well, because for shamans they physically hold their totems in do the quest, you get your totem, you have it in the bag, and then you be able [music] to use totems of the corresponding type. But, what if more

[04:45] was done with it than just this? See, for example, priests and warlocks have their own race specific spells, and that can very much impact which race you pick as a priest. If you like PvP, you might pick troll for shadow guard, or undead

[04:58] alliance side, dwarves have fear ward, which is widely seen as the strongest priest racial in the game. These kind of decisions you have to make between the >> [music] >> is something I do like a lot about

[05:11] vanilla. So, what if between orc, troll, and tauren, their totems were each a little bit different? Not necessarily just visually either, but they had then instead of them just being totems that sit in your bag, you can actually

[05:24] equip the totems into your relic slot, and then gain certain bonuses. [music] give you some spell damage, or improve your fire spells. >> If you equip the earth totem, perhaps it could help out a new shaman tanking

[05:38] talent tree within the totem, though that's probably [music] going a bit too is with this relic slot with shaman specifically, you could just have them equip their actual totems instead of making different items. The next one is

[05:52] something that goes with >> A lot of you in the chat seem to not somewhat of a clever idea. Maybe not in the way he said it. So, I don't like the suggestion of having um different

[06:06] don't really I don't think I really like that. Like it kind of works for priests maybe, but like I don't think that needs to be transferred to shamans, but having like a choice between between which totem to equip in that relic slot like

[06:20] could be kind of cool. Like some side stats like a little little flavor. Oh, I'm going to equip my fire one maybe if I'm Ellie, you know, maybe lava the fire one. I I don't know. Might be like kind of earth one for tanking.

[06:34] Maybe it gives you a bit more threat if shamans do become tanks or I don't know. Like I don't know. Like that could be kind of cool. But >> [laughter] >> I don't know. I I I don't mind the idea.

[06:47] I think it would maybe be like a you know, like a little too flavorful. Um somewhat separate conversation. Shaman Like shamans are the one class I

[07:01] played every other ones in vanilla. Um shaman I actually haven't. Shamans out there, how do you guys feel about four different totems in your bags all the time? Be honest. Like it should there be a totem bag?

[07:14] Should there be a totem holder or something? Or is it like pointless, lame. Okay, cuz I didn't know if there was some charm to that because things in classic that are annoying, but they're charming.

[07:28] things. This might just be annoying and not Yeah, I don't know. Maybe there's a better way. Like shamans What if there was a quest? I'm just just randomly rambling

[07:42] here. What if there was a quest at level 30? Piggybacking on Willie's idea that combines all of your totems into a relic that makes it so you don't have to carry them anymore. That's it.

[07:57] It's just a relic that says has the power of all four totems. in the relic slot, so you store it and it doesn't actually do anything besides that. And it's a quest that should be fun. What about that? Would that work?

[08:14] problem. Or you could make it into a keychain. Sure, could be part of the Seems good. Almost every class has random stuff they need to carry around. That actually is kind of a fair

[08:28] counterpoint. Hunters have ammo, warlocks have um soul shar- soul soul shards. Uh mages have runes of portals and teleportations and not so much. Rogues have poisons, pallies have

[08:42] um blessing things. Uh what are they called? Then the divine intervention. Warriors I guess warriors have a lot of gear and flask sets, but like that's a little

[08:57] different. Um what's what what other class are we missing here? Priests, some symbols for buffs, I guess. Druids have seeds. counterpoint.

[09:10] To be honest, is that every class has to carry some stuff. Didn't really think about it that way. But um I don't know. I still wouldn't like using the relic slot or the keychain. What I think the the cool

[09:23] solutions, in my opinion, are solutions that utilize something that's already in the game and expand upon it with a quest versus just giving you like 50 slot bags for free at level one, right? Or like or

[09:39] together. I think the idea of there's a quest that unlocks more potential with something that's already there is like for me as a classic player, it's like, "Ah, yes. Now it still feels like it was always

[09:53] supposed to be." You know, makes it feel more natty. players. >> way you back to the development of vanilla and that is regarding hero classes. The idea was that at a late

[10:06] specializing into something regard I thought I skipped I thought I remember back just a second. >> certain bonuses. So, if you equip a fire

[10:19] Probably going a bit too far, but basically what I'm getting at is with specifically, you could just have them equip their actual totems instead of one is something that goes way back to the development of vanilla and that is

[10:34] regarding hero classes. The idea was that at a late level your character would begin specializing into something regarding a hero class. So, for example, night elves could specialize into demon hunting, dwarf warriors mountain king,

[10:47] undead death knights, and so on. This idea never fully disappeared and some abilities from hero classes were added during [music] later expansions or have been used for inspiration for certain expansion specific updates. And for

[10:59] classic plus, there could be something here as well. I don't think mountain king would necessarily need to be an entirely new hero class, but potentially classes could receive a fourth specialization at some point in time to

[11:11] expand on the already existing class fantasy. Obviously, this would complicate class balance even more, despite it not being very good to begin be an interesting idea to bring back and be rolled out slowly over time. The next

[11:25] the few I've gone over so far, but it would help build out the world. would help build out the world. >> How do you guys feel in general about holding power

[11:39] in World of Warcraft, like the troll racial, undead, dwarf, or should you be to play and be done with it? For example, as a warrior, you kind of you're kind of forced to play human. Love it, good, good. Hate it, not good,

[11:54] not good, not good. Like it. Like so races mattering is a very classic MMO kind of thing. It's kind of annoying in the sense that like you might feel pressured into picking one instead of

[12:08] the one you want to play. Um the upside is it makes it feel like an RPG. It's an RPG.

[12:20] A lot of you guys in chat are split. Dude, the like so the amount of arguing and not arguing, but the discussion in the chat makes me just reflect on why we we kind of need a voting system to move forward with Classic Plus

[12:35] because Blizzard won't be able to get it right no matter what. I think the voting system is literally the only way because if you put, say, races to a vote, should racials be removed for example, and

[12:48] 90% of people say no, it's like, "Okay, well, it's settled then." You know, if you if you put like should racials be like 80% say yes, it's like, "Okay, cool. Let's balance them a little better

[13:01] then." Like, you know, so it's like it's it's kind of the only way forward cuz no of screwed if they don't do the vote. Like it like it's it's you kind of have What if it's 50/50? Then you respect precedent.

[13:16] If it's 50/50, you respect precedent and you keep things as they are. That's the key. That's the key here. You don't touch anything unless a strong majority wants it changed. That's the key to the voting system. That's how

[13:30] Runescape has done it. Right? You respect precedent and keep things as us here in the first place. If you want something to change, it needs to be like like most people on board. What Runescape does is 70/30, I think.

[13:43] I believe. So, like something like that would make sense. Not like, "Oh, 51%? Like, all right. Let's just change it up then." gone deep into Winterspring knows exactly what the winter saber trainer

[13:58] grind feels like. You have Riven Frostwind sitting atop Frostsaber Rock handing out three repeatable quests that you just have to do again and again until you hit exalted, at which point you can buy your brand new mount. It is

[14:10] because you have to do this quest some 500 or so times in a row, if I remember right, and it's not a particularly enjoyable grind, but actually don't know what he's talking about, but at some point, I think it was

[14:24] ish cataclysm maybe? They made it like a daily, you had to go on for 30 days and daily, you had to go on for 30 days and like train a pet. I did that. Cuz I I I cool. It's actually one of my favorite mounts in the game besides the cooler

[14:38] ones like spectral tiger and Zulian. But, I actually really really like this >> Then again, it's not supposed to be it's supposed to be special. People are meant something here. Despite that, the reputation rewards from each quest could

[14:51] probably be a little bit better than they are because everyone only ever the Winter Fall Village quest because it's just so much faster. The one collecting rate, and the third quest sends you all the way to the south to kill a bunch of

[15:05] giants, which just takes way too long on travel time. I think with this quest potentially a bit of an update to reputation earned could be in order, so another. And on the Horde side, you may know that in Un'Goro Crater, there is an

[15:18] NPC for the raptor sole trainers who is due to get a similar questline to the Winterspring Frost Sabers in Vanilla, but Blizzard just never got around to doing it. They wouldn't end up doing it until Wrath of the Lich King. The NPC is

[15:31] southeast. You'll have definitely run past him and thought, "What is this guy doing here?" because well, he doesn't do anything in Vanilla. I think overall the amount of reputation gained from Winterspring Frost Sabers and implement

[15:44] the Ravasaur Trainers too so that all players have something to chase after as well. Okay, so the next one will probably be the most com- and it's I'm not I'm not saying you

[15:56] but here's the thing. If you have three quests to give rep and there's a worse one and then you buff it, maybe it becomes the new best. buff it, maybe it becomes the new best. Now there's also a new worst.

[16:10] then there's the first one now becomes the new worst. So you try to like nerf worst again. So balancing. Like if you're if you're trying to DPS balance perfectly, it just

[16:24] becomes there's always there's always going to be a worst DPS class spec. always someone at the top. It's just how it works. Right? So when you have that in mind um I think it becomes less about trying to

[16:37] try to get things close enough, but there's always going to be a top there's just how it goes. You could try to minimize the spread, but for Classic Plus I think the more important thing to worry about is not perfect DPS balancing

[16:52] like you try to achieve in retail. It's more about classes being unique table to where you actually want those classes, whether it's DPS or not. And if

[17:04] you don't like your class then reroll. Right? Like so for example, if a class brings utility and buffs and some good DPS and they're good enough to that's good even if they're not top of the charts. If everyone's complaining

[17:19] about I have to be top of the charts, I think that's a you problem and like that's just how it is. Like classic wow isn't about that. It really isn't. So,

[17:31] balancing every classes DPS for classic plus just doesn't make any sense. You know, I just I really don't think it does, but it's hard cuz the community, us, are going to complain if one class is like under performing DPS-wise, but

[17:46] it's it's just not even a good thing to aim for. It's like I think a better does my class bring something unique to me? If the answer is yes, I think

[18:00] that's a success. That's a success. >> Controversial thing I'll go over here, but I'm just going to put the idea out it. So, if you play the caster in classic, you know the feeling of trying

[18:13] to get a spell off whilst multiple enemies are chipping away at you. Every damaging hit you suffer will push your spell cast back just a little bit. So, something like a night saber or a rogue

[18:25] quickly, you're going to have difficulty completing that spell cast. And trying to concentrate to complete a spell cast, it only makes sense that if somebody was punching you in the kidneys every half a second, you'd probably get,

[18:39] However, I think in vanilla, Blizzard kind of overestimated how powerful when the game first came out, there wasn't spell damage. You just stacked intellect and had to rely on that to deal damage. Now, there already are a

[18:53] number of ways to counteract spell pushback, such as talents that reduce the chance for you to be pushed back, but that's still quite RNG heavy. And Blizzard wouldn't end up changing things until wrath. What they did in wrath at

[19:06] the start of the expansion was made it so that only the first two hits during a cast added extra time at half a second each. So, the maximum amount of spell pushback you could suffer would be 1 second. Also, the talents that reduce

[19:19] back now reduce the amount of spell pushback you suffered instead. It's a pretty small tweak on paper, but it makes a massive difference to how smooth playing casters feels. Now, this probably would be too good in some areas

[19:32] in PvP to be fair, but it would make playing casters across the board a bit more predictable and in some cases a little bit more fair. Off the back of >> Casters, how do you feel about that? The pushback going to how it works in Wrath

[19:45] fair point to be made. I'm actually really enjoying this video. It's not of changes that I actually haven't really thought about. Um I think as a caster main before reading what you guys are going

[19:59] is I kind of just like it how it is. Um having it how it was in a Wrath, I don't know if I would be like it's a buff to to the class that I would play, Mage. But I think the whole idea

[20:15] is if you have a bunch of mobs on you you don't cast. You You don't cast. If you have a bunch of mobs on you, you use something else. If you're a Mage, it's Frostnova, run away, then cast. That's the whole point.

[20:30] Um so, it should never really affect you. It's like just don't I I I I don't know. Now, let's see. Like with a priest, if you have a bunch of mobs, on you on a warlock, like you could kind

[20:43] For a warlock, it actually might make more sense than all the other Like for a priest or a mage, you'd run. For a druid, travel form, instant cast, kind of makes sense. For a shaman, totems, instant cast. So,

[20:55] of makes sense. Maybe it could be a lock talent. But for all the rest, I don't think. Um Yeah. But yeah, locks are already so OP in PvP that making them even better.

[21:13] against that. >> On which I think will be quite a bit more popular because this has been a sore spot since 2019 classic. The so short that if you're playing something that shoots over 30 yards, you

[21:27] really. And honestly, it's just been scuffed forever. I genuinely can't day. >> This is a good one. So when when 2019 classic came out, they actually updated the name plate range to 40 and

[21:42] were so mad. They were rioting on the forums. They blasted Blizzard to the point where Blizzard removed it and they put it back Um or is it 30? I think it's 20. Um

[21:57] Um should name plate range be increased? actually don't even like for me

[22:09] for me I think I like 40 better. But there is implications for vanilla. The more name plate range you have, the harder like say you're you're talking

[22:21] becomes to ninja a node cuz you can see someone coming in from way further. So it changes how like something like a name plate through a wall. It's like you're wall hacking instead of

[22:34] see your name plate until you get close. If you're playing something like hardcore, you can see all the mobs around you. Hardcore becomes easier. it not easier, but like you have more knowledge to your like it it changes how

[22:48] the game is played. It really does. So I can see people being upset. I think personally I prefer 40 anyway. It makes the game like just feel smoother, but I can see the people saying no on why they would want it that way.

[23:03] It's like, yeah, you shouldn't really see a mob until you're close. The thing that sucks is though is is what Willie said. If you're a caster, can't even see the health cuz you're too far.

[23:15] Like, that's weird. to where they'd able be able to use that advantage.

[23:31] I I I agree with that, Gabby. I think casting on a mob, you should at least be able to see the nameplate of that mob. that that was Willie's take, too. I think that's a very fair take. Like,

[23:47] yeah, that is that is a pretty darn fair take. >> You know, back when Classic came out in 2019, people found macros that worked from the retail version of the game, which allowed you to extend the view

[23:59] distance where you could see nameplates from to above 40 yd. And then Blizzard want you doing that. We're going to break those macros. Enjoy your 20-yd range again." Of course, Blizzard have fixed this in later versions of the

[24:11] they're keeping things like this in vanilla before, specifically for wouldn't be able to see enemy nameplates ordinarily, but if they extended them, then you would. That being said, the time for us to see nameplates from more

[24:25] coming, and I'm very much hoping they reconsider it again [music] for class. the open world are the weather effects. You got rain, snow, sandstorms, and so

[24:37] on. And these were added into wild vanilla in patch 1.10 back in the day. Beyond that, in future expansions, Blizzard have tied certain events to weather happening out in the world, such as there being pet battles that spawn

[24:49] it's raining, you'll get monkey spawning on Jagged Isle and STV. But what I'd like to see is just more weather, please. It's really cool when it happens a much more living, breathing world. And I'm not sure what extent they could have

[25:04] sense across the world, but whatever the case that might be in real life, sense in Azeroth wherever you may be located. >> I I kind of kind of disagree on this one in a sense. Um if you have too much of

[25:18] something, it gets old. Like if it's always raining, Like if it's always raining, always snowing, always sandstorming, then it's just like then it feels like it never is. What's cool is like it

[25:31] almost never is and then it when it starts to rain, it's like, oh yeah. Like you it hits different. So, I mean, you could maybe increase it a tad, but if the time, it kind of just becomes annoying. It's like, oh, it's raining

[25:43] again. You know? Oh oh crap, it's it's snowing again. And then it just be gets gets it it's like get this off my screen. It becomes annoying instead of this really rare like cool, exciting thing. So.

[25:55] weather's doing. They just need to add more of it in. But yeah, that's it with it. Next, I want to talk about weapon skill. It's one of those systems that made sense as a design choice in 2004, and it's aged into something that, well,

[26:10] does anyone really enjoy this? I mean, the leveling portion of weapon skill, weapon skill and it's affecting your hit chance and so on. I mean, when you think about it, what are the weapon skill trainers actually doing when they teach

[26:23] you how to use a weapon? Imagine a piano tutor. You're there, you sit in front of and they say, well, that's how you play a piano, go figure out the rest of weapon skill trainers do. And then when you're leveling weapon skill, it just

[26:37] >> I mean, the way I see it is the weapon skill trainer teaches you how to wield it and teaches you some introduction to like being able to swing it, and then Look, I don't

[26:50] Like it it this isn't a system that like is like, oh, I need this, but it it's an RPG basic for a classic game. I I'm fine with them keeping it. Like, it's it's a little bit of friction. It's like, it you know, I'm totally fine

[27:05] it's not a system that I'm like, oh, we need it, but it's like if it's gone, it's almost like, uh. All right, yeah. >> The analyst definitely shelf those last few points. And the last few points

[27:19] the meta way to go and train weapon skill is to go and find NPCs in the damage, and then just beat on them endlessly whilst not paying attention. up. I don't think they can remove weapon skill because again in end game it is

[27:35] incredibly impactful for dealing damage. However, could it just be not so random feature I would love to see built on in Classic Plus will be inside of Blackrock Depths. You'll have seen the Dark Iron Highway. After you go inside

[27:49] it's just beyond that. It's the place of Bal'gar, and then a ton of dwarf patrols. Back in the day at one point in time a lot of people speculated, what is real mystery which I absolutely think Blizzard have the opportunity to expand

[28:03] upon. Maybe it could lead into a larger foundry type area for the Dark Iron, or perhaps some chaotic elemental place they've had to seal off to keep even place in the world which I would love to see expanded on.

[28:17] >> Wait, when you go through the door over here and look to the left, isn't it just lava? And a drop-off? Am I tripping? I'm trying to think. In Bal'gar, you go through the door, there's like a bridge, you look to the left, it's just like

[28:31] open spot with lava, isn't it? It's like a drop-off. >> I would have to like No, you can't see behind the door. the other side. No, I'm not talking about this door.

[28:44] I'm talking about when you go through this door over here, you go across like a bridge, right? And when you look to the left, it's just like a drop-off with lava.

[28:59] misremembering? I almost want to go back on air and look real quick. on air and look real quick. Don't think there's a door here? What do you mean there's no door by Belgar?

[29:12] definitely like an opening here, right? I'm thinking of the Insignia's door. I'm thinking of the other. Okay, so there's there's no opening

[29:25] tripping? I have to go and check. I mean, everyone's saying no, so I'm clearly wrong here.

[29:37] is one of the most well-received features from Legion, class order halls, a dedicated headquarter for every class, stocked with lore characters, class-specific storylines, and a real sense of identity for what you are

[29:52] every class got their own specific >> So, but Gabby said that one behind Belgar is closed and the one leading to Insignia's on the other end is open. I hallway. I I mean, that must be what it is.

[30:05] >> order hall. However, if you think to vanilla, then you'll realize that actually there are a few classes that already have an order hall. Druids have Moonglade, warlocks have Ravenholdt, warriors have

[30:17] >> I mean, there's not much to go off, but it's something. The most polished of these by far is Moonglade and it's already built into the world, but I do wonder if other classes could find a place to effectively have some form of

[30:29] order hall or meeting point for people who play the same class. I think there would split people up and they're just spending time in their order hall Moonglade, for example, you mainly go

[30:42] convenience of the teleports. Outside of that, it's not really a useful place to be whatsoever. It's a similar story with Ravenholdt and rogues. I think it's just as though you're really are playing your class and that it doesn't have to tell

[30:56] >> To me, what's actually kind of cool about Moonglade, the warrior level 30 about Moonglade, the warrior level 30 quest island, and Ravenholdt, is that can actually get there. So, it doesn't take away from the world, it actually

[31:08] adds to it. The The rogues might be the only class that can interact maybe with these quests here or something like that or the maybe the druids are the only the quests in Moonglade besides maybe like one or two in Maraudon, but at

[31:22] least everyone else can go there and see what's going on. It's very druid-themed, but it's not like a section part off of the world. Like, so if they do more, saying like, "Look, like maybe there could be like a little pali area, but

[31:35] there, no one else can see it ever, and it's not like instanced off, and it's never want to leave, and everyone just sits in there instead of the city." But could hang out and do some quests, but

[31:48] So, it's like a very fine line, right? >> And into a one-stop shop for everything with an auction house, mailboxes, and all that stuff. So, maybe class order halls are like or something that could be expanded upon in vanilla, too. And

[32:01] that's it, 10 smaller pieces of the game which I think could use a looking at in you agree with and that you'd like to see and which ones you reckon would be going a bit too far in the comments down below. Thanks again to Raid: Shadow

[32:14] three free legendaries and an epic, all you have to do is check the link below you all so much for watching and listening in, and I'll see you all in the next one. Very soon. >> I'm not going to lie, that was a

[32:28] >> I'm not going to lie, that was a fantastic video, Willie. Well done. Well done. I mean, I don't agree with all the points, but I will say these are 10 changes that no one is talking about." I was like, for sure we've thought about a

[32:41] about some, but uh cool, super sick video. Definitely I I definitely just love brainstorming and chatting about this stuff, man. No, it was bad. All right.

[32:55] No, it was bad. All right. All right.