Legacy Media Grades — Full Breakdown & Transcript

[00:08] language. If you think you may be offended, switch off now.

[00:22] we're looking back at 20 years of YouTube history through WatchMojo's unique lens. I am your host Rob, and with me as always is WatchMojo CEO and co-founder Ashkan Karbasfrooshan, who is back again from New York City. How's it

[00:37] I don't know where I am. I don't know where I'm waking up. I'm a bit disoriented. No, things are great. Things are great. Uh life is good, knock You know, just very grateful. Everything's amazing, to be honest with

[00:50] again. And uh but yeah, back to New York next Oh, wow. Three consecutive weeks? You know, even in the era when I was like trying desperately to raise funding, or I was like meeting clients

[01:03] go to New York like 20 times a year, I would never actually be there be returning, sitting on the tarmac in like, "Oh, sorry, we didn't get a chance to catch up. When are you back?" And I

[01:16] "Oh, I'll be back in a couple weeks." just cuz I needed to kind of, you know, drum up some traction. But uh yeah, you why, like it's been very hectic, very productive. Um working on a special

[01:30] strategic operation, to paraphrase Vlad- Vladimir Putin, not that I usually like to do. So, got to go back next week, but no complaints. It's the greatest city in Well, we were talking about our favorite heavy metal bands before this call, and

[01:44] now we're shifting gears to legacy media. So, we'll try to do that. Put ourselves in the right mental space to do that. Um can make legacy media make a episode. And I want to, before we get into it, I want to mention our poll cuz

[01:57] mention it per se. Exactly. Um so what we want to know, go check this out on WatchMojo's YouTube page, what form of legacy media do you page, what form of legacy media do you miss the most? TV, radio, print, or

[02:11] early internet. And I acknowledge that TV, radio, and print still exist, but they aren't the dominant forms of media that they once were. So which which ones get back to you at the end of the episode.

[02:24] Which one do you miss the most? Um TV. I would have to say just the experience of uh I think I think I suffer from decision fatigue a lot of the time with streaming where you know, I'll sit there and scroll through all

[02:38] the options and not end up choosing anything sometimes, whereas back in the day you could just like put on a channel and watch whatever's there. I kind of Yeah, I'm I'm not ADHD, but I do have short attention span, so I think the

[02:51] traditional model of linear TV actually I loved it, but it wasn't I much rather like on demand. I I do like to be able to choose what I want to watch. For me it was probably if I think about it I you know, obviously I like I like music,

[03:04] so radio was very like nostalgic, but it's probably magazines. Like you know, when I was working in a convenience store where I got held up. Um you know, I like honestly for me like reading magazines, one of the influences of

[03:16] WatchMojo along with encyclopedias and cable TV. Um but magazines to me both and just like killing time when I was in like super rush. But also you know, we that's not really true that you stand on the shoulders of somebody. My dad for

[03:33] for bringing us here. Uh he was an entrepreneur. He isn't well, he's retired, let's say. He's still with us, knock on wood. Um my brother, you know, who's uh 3 years older than me, he was a consultant and so he would like order

[03:46] the Economist, Business Week, Fortune. So one reason why I did pretty well in a book was because of all those magazines. So, a lot of my, you know, try kind of knowledge base is is magazines. And I I actually think while

[03:59] newspapers never made sense because of like the timely aspect to quote Warren Buffett, he's like, "Yeah, man, if we had to reinvent like do things all over again." He's like, "You're not going to hire a bunch of people to ride trucks to

[04:11] go up lumberjacks, cut trees, cut paper, print stuff, you know, that obviously newspapers don't make sense." But, I feel magazine, especially like bespoke edition, something you leave on a coffee table, something you read, you know,

[04:25] like at an airport, I find like magazines to me will always even have a place, but obviously a much smaller place. people have to say. Yeah, and Joe, our colleague, just wrote

[04:38] here in the chat, "I learned guitar with magazines and radio." So, hey, there you go. You can do a lot with uh And And if you combine those two with a people watch it now. Back to the That's actually how I learned guitar was

[04:50] That's actually how I learned guitar was on YouTube in like 2003, 4, 5, around that area. So, you mentioned your trip to New York, democratization of media has made it so that you didn't have to travel so much.

[05:04] But, here you are making frequent trips to New York. that? Sure, the great restaurants. So, I'm Yeah, and and last week I referenced it's like the babe fest Olympics where

[05:18] every country has attractive women, but like has it's like a congregation of you just walk into poles. No, so, yes, you know what? Let's bring it back to the show and the theme. It's not just the democratization of media,

[05:33] smart and we were we have a great team that we had success. So, once you have success on YouTube and you have like programmatic revenues, things we've discussed, and you have a big audience, you have like a direct distribution to a

[05:46] you know you know critical mass then yeah you did New York or the valley you did not need to go pitch to Madison Avenue but our to go pitch to Madison Avenue but our success and to this this shows theme can

[06:01] legacy media make a comeback they did not really embrace YouTube they were kind of head in the sand so you know after 20 years and five years with our responsibility to them as I have responsibility to the team and to our

[06:15] lot of companies and it's weird that I'm transparent about this but I've said that nobody talked about this right if it's helpful great so we got a lot of companies to reach out and say hey we would be interested in

[06:29] welcoming watch mojo into our fold adding watch mojo to our portfolio of brands or in many cases we are going to go really big in digital media or in content or you know we we there's no way that we

[06:43] could really build organically ourselves we don't have the experience we don't have the competency or mainly even if we do we don't have the patience so we want to make up for lost time and you know the first company that

[06:56] the second and third I was like okay this starts to look like a pattern and then despite the uncertainty of like the elections and the tariff stuff it became clear that yeah everybody has failed to really address the video AVOD YouTube

[07:13] you know kind of target and watch mojo is to quote them I didn't say it we are one of the few investable or acquirable assets you know even Mr Beast would be tough to acquire even though he's done a job of building a business but most

[07:26] difficult to acquire and then you're not going to go buy like you know M&M's channel or Taylor Swift channel you know those ultimately belong to the record we're not going to go buy WWE's channel cuz that's a company you know even

[07:38] you know I guess William Morris did but the point is it's great, but it does bring up the theme and again it's funny how this show like I was 6 months ago on the beach during vacation, you emailed me saying

[07:51] you want to do podcast and I was like oh it's 20 somebody else said Young Deuces one of our you know creators was our talent I was like I you know we should like you know what let's do a documentary on YouTube through our lens.

[08:04] Um and here we are and it's just like the way that we're in like show number I'm like you know as much as I'm agnostic I'm sometimes like isn't there a higher force that is bringing the stars

[08:17] Yeah we might be closing this this podcast with a new chapter for I don't I don't have that kind of power. Uh so yeah so I actually don't I think while legacy media can definitely make a comeback I do think it's more like

[08:33] improbable but not you know not necessarily impossible. Um because they're not I mean here's the thing already in 2025 just putting legacy media in one bucket I think is already at the service. So I

[08:47] thought today we could maybe break it down a bit down a bit and talk about certain print media and how they've done and then look at like broadcast and even cable TV.

[09:00] Um and then before we dive in you have to bear in mind that even the disruptors team has heard me say that that we disrupted let's say you know the VH1s the TVs whatever by embracing YouTube and by kind of rethinking videos and top

[09:14] 10 list. But even we are not uh untouchable and you know Yahoo and search were disrupted by Google that today itself is being disrupted. By chat GPT and yesterday Google made a series of announcements where they're

[09:30] kind of disrupting themselves. Um it's not just them you know even if you think of like MySpace or Friendster these were the first social networks. Ah. Oh my god, that's even the Friendster before my time. I don't remember that

[09:43] logo. Uh but yeah, so Friendster and MySpace Ah, there's Tom. Uh they got disrupted by Facebook, which itself you could argue My god, great job, Yvon. And Facebook. And like And you're reading my mind. Um

[09:56] know. So So the disruptors get disrupted. Nobody is untouchable. So we we'll look at a few companies and just about again in the world of YouTube. What have they done in the world of

[10:10] video? So you're the boss. You take it however you want to go. You provided a a really good list of companies that successfully transformed Well, just to be fair, just give credit where credit is due. And this is again a

[10:23] cuz last like we did the show and I was like out of pack again. I just as I was doing my laundry unpacking. So I asked ChatGPT, where I think is a tool. It's not like going to replace anything, but as an add-on, I call her Chassy, short

[10:37] for Chastity. I asked her to give me names that start with CH for chat that had the letters some of the letters GPT. She suggested Chastity as one of them, Mhm. But I thought it was a bit too um

[10:51] on the nose, so I went with Chassy to kind of, you know, anyway. It's also Chassy, you know, like you got I'm the engine, she's the chassis. To to move forward. There you go. Mankind, humanity, and

[11:04] outcome. Yeah, great combo. is the New York Times company. And And yeah, that's great because they've embraced the web as a traditional newspaper.

[11:16] Um they've gone to They they bought that um that years ago and they've done all kinds of things. thing I would say that they've done is they actually took the risk and say,

[11:28] "Hey, if you make content available for free and you condition your audience like Pavlovian dogs, uh they will just expect it to be free, and journalism costs a lot of money. Whether it's journalism with a capital J or with a

[11:41] people out, you know, out around the world and you know, cover beats and whatnot. But a little fun fact, just again, always tying back to YouTube and WatchMojo, in like 2010, well, before we had kind of found our

[11:55] product market fit, they had already acquired about.com. And in some ways, about.com was similar in text to WatchMojo in that topic, the way we'd like to have a video on every topic. So, about.com, which was

[12:10] owned by New York Times, wanted to buy us, and I remember trying to explain to our the team like Rebecca and Stephanie and Kevin and Derek and everybody that I was like, "Look at how like look at the work you're doing." Even though at the

[12:22] time, you could argue we were just an expensive hobby, like going like a leaf be for the about.com unit, but I mean like New York Times, arguably the gold standard of journalism,

[12:35] "Look at like what what kind of validation that is." But yeah, so I think the main transformation for them is they brought on Mark Thompson, who I and he basically built their subscription business. And yeah, then

[12:49] funny is they were really smart to skim the market, meaning like they would even then they were like, "If you want cooking recipes, that's even like an would be like, "Yeah, screw this." But it worked, and today they're largely a

[13:04] subscription business with like it's a freemium model, right? So, there's like a premium version and a free model. Now, they did buy Wordle. They did also buy I think The Athletic, you know, for about, you know, wasn't a

[13:17] huge grand slam for the investors, but I mean it was still a huge outcome. And struggled with video because even more recently under the the more recent regime, you know, they always kind of were open to looking for outside help,

[13:33] challenge. Like when we look at, you know, legacy media, there's Mark Thompson. When we look at legacy media and can they adapt? Yeah, one reason is because it's like the Microsoft problem. If this wasn't built here, then it

[13:45] stinks, you know? It's like we had to build it for us to embrace it. And if we do like, you know, that video we did last week of like images that may not They would be like, "Well, you know what? We should do that. Our journalists

[13:58] should do that." So again, more power to them, but I think it also shows that they reinvent themselves in a very like evolutionary way. They did not really really disrupt themselves. They just said, "Hey, we're fine with read less

[14:13] viewers if that means that a large portion of those viewers are subscribers that pay us." So but they get it they get like a B plus, again, because we're looking at through the lens of video, New York Times, I

[14:26] love you. You don't get an A just because your video strategy laisse you want to do a partnership, we're here, we love you. Just not not like calling you out, but again, you know, just being fair. B plus.

[14:39] I'd say that's fair. They've they've retained their reputation as a, you know, an a premium news outlet, so I think that's a success. Um we've got Disney at number two. That's a big one because the streaming

[14:51] That's a big one because the streaming industry is massive and Disney is kind with with Netflix and start competing cuz they have such a massive library of of of shows and movies. Yeah, so I mean, you got to give credit

[15:04] first of all. So Michael Eisner is the is the gentleman who when he was CEO, this goes back probably 15, 20, maybe years. He's the guy that said, "We're going to kind of like greenlight these movies, whether it's Aladdin or Lion

[15:17] King or Beauty and the Beast." That really I think gave Disney like another, you know, growth spurt. Um but then he got replaced by well he resigned he I think retired and then he got replaced by by Bob Iger who's like you know a

[15:31] legend a great person anybody I've never heard anybody really speak ill of him know later on but um you know he really is the guy that transformed the business and he's the guy that you know him and Kevin

[15:44] Mayer uh that bought Pixar Marvel and Lucasfilm that I looked and when they like this is going to be a transformational uh event not just for Disney but for the entire industry and that's really when I

[15:57] said geek culture is going to overtake pop culture these movies these IP are not going to be you know buried in the backyard. Um and so they deserve a lot of credit. Now more recently you could argue that they overpaid for Fox but

[16:10] okay I mean in the end of the day that's moot because Rupert Murdoch was not going to sell you know for nothing um but the key is that then Kevin Mayer who ago we talked to them about a strategic partnership because they had bought a

[16:23] lot of like Reese Witherspoon studio they had bought Cocomelon or Moonbug and stuff to their credit which some critics would say they overpaid because of the timing like they they raised a ton of money I think from Blackstone um

[16:38] think and they you can argue that they they started to buy at the peak but that's not their fault that you don't control that and you can argue they overpaid for some assets but they'll figure it out

[16:50] overpaid like Moonbug paid off cuz they have dominant franchises now. And so Kevin Mayer and his kind of team they're the ones that spearheaded Disney Plus say sins and virtues was it driven by

[17:04] envy for envy and greed for what Netflix was doing hell yeah but Netflix was crushing it and that takes balls everybody Iger Mayer everybody involved because they were willing to blow up their house burn their house down in

[17:17] order to be, you know, relevant in the 21st century. Yes, you could argue that like did was it smart to overdo and dilute the MCU franchise? Okay, in argue that like they burned some bridges with theatrical? Sure. But theatrical

[17:32] exhibition is going to be, you know, going downward over over time. Uh so so you you know, it is what it is, but I think Disney is actually a bit more interesting cuz they they also own Hulu. They still own

[17:45] ESPN, which you could argue has been disrupted. But I mean, if you really put it all together, I do think Disney Plus, that direct-to-consumer, the number of households that buy Disney

[17:58] Plus the way like our generation looked at Netflix or YouTube as a must-watch. Mhm. I give them an A- minus, to be honest. I really do. I think like they really really bulletproof their uh their

[18:10] future. And uh I'm I I always want to be careful with this. I might have sold my shares recently just because I wanted to put it elsewhere, but but allocate the capital elsewhere, and I didn't think it was going to accrue that much. But

[18:24] Disney long-term, I mean, having an ever-growing base of direct consumers that pay you with your credit card. You're not at the mercy of oh, we got to put our movies in AMC or or Regal's theaters.

[18:36] That's an A plus. That's right, that's an A minus, and it could very well grow into an A plus over time cuz they got the direct-to-consumer part down, which year for the first time I went to Disney World, I had gone on a Disney cruise,

[18:50] and then I'm like, "Jesus freaking Christ." That that business generates 50 Um and that won't go to zero at all. If anything, that's going to grow. So, they opinion. Yep, Disney's not going anywhere. I I

[19:04] just I wanted to also note that I know that with a lot of fans, they've goodwill, like especially with franchises like Star Wars that have a lot of diehards and stuff like that, but they've also done cool things, too. Like

[19:16] you mentioned the 21st Century Fox purchase, taking all of those kind of dormant superhero movies and then integrating them into the MCU in cool Kind of like gave life back to those movies that had fans that were just

[19:29] relevant anymore." But like now it is And you know, I like your intellectual honesty because again, like last week but you could argue Air Canada like kind of tried to shaft me or their system by

[19:42] sending me instead of directly Montreal LaGuardia corridor, they were We're going to send you to Toronto and then from Toronto." And I booked another flight myself, but this week again, I'm flying Air Canada. As much as I'm like,

[19:57] I may never fly Air Canada like again. So, when you have that brand loyalty or business, consumers could be whining or whatever, but loyalty doesn't evaporate overnight.

[20:11] All right, next up on the list, The Washington Post. So, how does that compare to The New York Times as a So, you know, now that we're doing Yeah, now that we're doing this, I love chat chessy, but maybe I could have if I

[20:24] bundled these in prints. So, we're kind of going back and forth, but it's all right, a bit of variety, curveballs. You don't know what's next. So, Washington Post again, you could argue early on that they missed the boat

[20:38] and whatnot, but to their credit, I think especially when Jeff Bezos, even though he's hands-off, when he bought them, I did feel that like he brought in a certain Again, Jeff Bezos, great visionary, excellent operator, blah blah

[20:52] blah, also flawed. I'm not I'm not saying these people are perfect, but this, he was a bit of a boat, he brought the vision and he also brought stability. When he bought it was like kind of like

[21:04] you don't have to worry about the near term. Um and so, I do think that like the company had a little bit of a extended runway to also say, "Oh, look, sure, maybe we're going to look at what New York Times and others are doing,

[21:19] but we're also okay to maybe have less of a reach and ergo less impact, but we need the subscription revenue." So this one I know I gave New York Times a B+.

[21:35] This one I'm actually going to say, even though they've done a lot to improve, I'm also again in video I'm I'm not sure they're anywhere near figuring that out. And you could argue maybe print-based news sources may not

[21:49] because it's just a different experience, right? That's fair. reason that I think at the end of the day a lot even the New York Times, when you decide to go paid wall, when you decide to charge, you're making a

[22:02] decision to take profit today instead of like maximize your purpose long-term. less people. Less young people are going to turn to you. Less older people are

[22:14] going to, you know, continue to to be like your client. So while I give them props for figuring out subscriptions, I do think in a way that they kind of mortgaged their future. And they're not as diversified as the New York Times,

[22:26] lot more a lot more assets, whether it's Wordle or The Athletic or many other things. So while I give them props for figuring out figuring out the the subscription business as a as a grading exercise, B.

[22:41] Would you say that compared to streaming services which also have a subscription model, for newspapers, isn't it a certain type of person also who gets a subscription for a newspaper? So you're limiting not only the the

[22:55] scope in terms of what type of people are reading your your stuff. 100%. You're very right. I mean, the point is already everything about newspaper was already a dwindling market. Even reading newspaper when you

[23:08] podcast. There's a lot of niche publications. There's a whole generation this is passé that like read Gawker or back in the day weblogs properties instead of New York Times. And there's a lot of bloggers who are domain I'm not

[23:21] familiar with my work. Like if somebody really wanted insights into like digital media or entrepreneurship, no disrespect to the great journalists there. But that interview people. So it's kind of like diluted. They get some facts wrong.

[23:35] Great access, great reporting. But like you're going to read what Ash has to say read their journalists who are like reporting on YouTube. And again, I'm I'm I'm not being literal there. So yeah, you're right. I mean, they're

[23:48] basically shrinking their business in order to have front. A couple of questions from the audience. Have paywalls had an effect on the evolution of the newspaper online

[24:02] that's basically it. Search engines don't really index you as well. I mean, sometimes will land you know, the New York Times or Washington Post on the first search engine results page or serp,

[24:15] for sure they don't get the same juice as websites that are totally free. mean, at the end of the day, I know we are very like, oh we'll do this topic. later. Yeah, in most corporate boardrooms, it's like show me the money

[24:29] right now. Like they may take a quarter or two or a year to be patient, but for sure they're limiting their their future. In the next generation, well, Alpha, they could care less about New York Times by and large. They're never

[24:43] that's also where some of these companies are hoping that like an Apple It's not that crazy. Apple News, they could be like, hey, there's something here for retention, for goodwill. Let's just buy the New York Times. That is not

[24:56] impossible. So some of these companies view this as a bridge. They view the subscription as a bridge before a greater fool comes along and pays a Right. And I think we answered the second question. Do they limit the

[25:10] And the answer is yes. Of course. I mean, we could have also there's a lot of people that have paywalls. But I always am a kind of mass, reach as many people, information should be free. To me, that's one of my

[25:22] principles. I don't mind. But I'm also fortunate that again, it's like I get it journalists you have to pay. Totally. Uh number four on the list. So, broadcasting with the BBC. Yeah. Well, the BBC, to be fair, their

[25:36] fair. But yeah, it is ultimately broadcasting. It's UK. Now, the reason why the BBC is a bit different is like it's I mean, in Canada we would call it it's that's the lingo. It probably is in the UK. So, they kind of are basically

[25:49] taking taxpayer money. Um and then basically like floating their operation. I think the BBC, especially with like the BBC iPlayer, and just like the the the way, little parentheses. A lot of Iranians hate the BBC. So, I'm not the

[26:05] If anybody is watching, I'm not defending the BBC or Ayatollah BBC in the context of Iranian coverage. Don't come out and attack me. I'm talking about generally what the BBC does as a business covering everything. Okay? Big

[26:18] picture. So, BBC, I think has done a good job to stay relevant. We've met them on on my trips to London. But I also think that BBC could have been a bigger global brand

[26:32] saying, "We're no longer just limited to TV in the UK." They could have said, "Because of the internet, the BBC still has a lot of goodwill or brand value. we're going to make everything open because we are funded by the government,

[26:47] and we don't have the same On the one hand, we don't have the same pressures that a, you know, LLC corporation does with shareholders and stuff. But what's the flip side? When you're funded by

[26:59] taxpayers, in a way you are at the mercy of the taxpayers. If you do something the taxpayers can call you out, they could call for budget cuts. It also becomes very political. In Canada, when we had elections recently, one of the

[27:11] candidates, Pierre Poilievre, he made attacking the CBC, which is Canada's version of the BBC, that was one of his main things. He was like, "We're going to cut the CBC. We're going to screw the BBC. F the BBC." And okay,

[27:24] a lot of people that are like, "Why are we funding the BBC uh the CBC or BBC?" my point is it's still a public service. So to them, I do again give them props

[27:37] for the I the iPlayer and many other things, but I give them actually a B- of imagination. If I was running the BBC at that era, I would have gone and said, "Hey, we are going to make the BBC into the premier news information site in the

[27:51] the premier news information site in the world. Period. You're not happy? Come in a year. Judge me in a year. Tell me what I did wrong, but give me a year. And I don't think they went for that. I think they went straight for, you know,

[28:04] how do we just survive instead of how do we thrive when now you have again no barriers of in any market. So to me that's a bit of a uh that's a B- minus. What grade would you give the CBC?

[28:18] So again, this is not like a shot. I actually like I mean, look, are there Hell yeah. As a person, as an entrepreneur. But also BB the CBC looked they also were like, "Let me just I'm not saying this is like

[28:33] to brag. It's to show they did look at global reach. They did look at like the of it. And if they thought of it with us, they a lack of vision. The CBC, this grade reflects just

[28:47] Canadian media and I don't mean no disrespect to Canadian media. I'm a I'm getting on a plane again in a very soon. Canadians need to leverage the fact that it's a great country, it's a great

[29:00] people. The Why are so many freaking Canadian singers and comedians so popular globally? Because there's a there's a certain finesse, there's a substance, there's a je ne sais quoi about Canada. As much as I love America

[29:14] and as much as I love the UK, the Canada stands out. But Canadian corporations just lack vision. They do not execute. Their head is in the sand. Look at Can Canwest, no, Postmedia, the publisher of the Gazette and all these other things.

[29:28] Kevin and I that like you know, one of my partners in crime who does helps me on the business side for 20 years, we'd go see these companies every few years. Nothing would change. It would just be like slowing down time. Their head would

[29:41] be deeper in the sand. And then when they go bankrupt, they would blame their of their investors did nonsense, some of their board members did nonsense. But it was a lack of imagination. So, since we're grading on a bell curve,

[29:54] please, bell curve, CBC, there's no way with a clear conscience I can give them a B if I'm giving Washington Post and New York Times and BBC a B. So, I'm going to give them a a round C.

[30:07] I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings with a C minus. And I I'd also they had I forgot, I'm so sorry. And that's the point. They actually did have a Yeah. And I met them, but the fact I don't

[30:19] Canadian tells you a lot. So, I'm going to give them a C. Um I hope there's no big exposé coming around the corner, but I give them a C C for Canada. C for Canada, C for CBC. There you go.

[30:32] That's the That's the excuse. Next up, we're going back to print with The Wall Street Journal. Yeah, so The Wall Street Journal uh was the Barton family. I should know this. I'm

[30:44] sorry. Yeah, long time ago. So, they sold to new uh Rupert Murdoch. Rupert sold to new uh Rupert Murdoch. Rupert Murdoch had a News Corp. He had I like Wall Street Journal, which was like the gold standard of business reporting

[30:56] forever. And around like 2006, 7, 8, he just over bought them. But, he just wanted to have it. He wanted in his portfolio. So, he acquired them. And the because they they reach a business clientele, meaning you could expense

[31:10] your your your subscription more easily than you could expense Playboy or that's than you could expense Playboy or that's an extreme example. Or, you know, uh many other magazines, right? You can't really expense Cosmo. You know, you

[31:24] That's also part of it. That like a lot of the readers of the New York Times are just normal consumers. They're not business There There is a business clientele. So, so Wall Street Journal was actually a leader in subscription.

[31:36] And their success is what made New York Times and Washington Post go, "Hmm." You know, as consumer behavior changed. So, Wall Street Journal, I think I'm Let me see what we gave the others. Yeah, I'm going to give them a B minus.

[31:50] a C. But, there's no way that they get an A for a few reasons. Wall Street Journal could have been a dominant multimedia brand. Like really, really dominant multimedia brand. More video, text,

[32:05] everything. But, I think that they let way too many others steal a lot of market share and mind share. Like Business Insider, which Henry Blodget started. And Henry Blodget used to read my first blog, HipMojo. He would share

[32:19] it. And frankly, I'm No problem. I mean, this is again, delusional entrepreneur the intersection of Madison Avenue and Wall Street and Silicon Valley, and there's one that I'm missing. Um but

[32:31] anyway, like all those, not just product reviews, he then really executed on with like TechCrunch or Mashable, like covering the latest product releases. He covering the latest product releases. He really covered Silicon Valley, Wall

[32:45] Street, Madison Avenue in a way that I wanted to do, but out of Montreal made no sense, and obviously he was Henry Blodget. He had a He had both fame, credibility, and infamy because of his previous uh

[32:57] things that he had done as a as a analyst at Merrill Lynch. But so the point is, again, focus sash. The point is Wall Street Journal should have never let the Business Insiders, even the CNBCs and many, many others become

[33:12] that big and that, you know, suck out so much uh energy out of the room. So, I do give them a lot of credit for what they've built, but given that they had this business clientele, like they should have really, really been what all

[33:24] they got a B- minus. All right. Uh next up, we're moving to a All right. Uh next up, we're moving to a magazine with uh Condé Nast. again, I actually like Condé Nast quite a bit. I know a few people there, and I

[33:38] they have done a really, really good job overall to stay relevant, even though you could argue that, you know, their best days are behind them cuz the glossy era of magazines, you know, the three-martini lunches and

[33:51] like that's a whole era that a lot of people miss, too, right? That's a thing. Well, I mean, I do bring it back once in a while when I don't have too many meetings in the afternoon. Uh but let's just put that aside. Um By the way, if

[34:05] just put that aside. Um By the way, if you want to kind of like see uh uh uh an insane proportion of really, really attractive young women, uh have a meeting at Condé Nast and just pass by the cafeteria. It is just a very

[34:18] get back to focus. Condé Nast to every company, so that's just a disclaimer. But I say that because I "Oh, he's saying this because we didn't buy the company after we talked." That's

[34:31] really not the point. It's that we talked. We I got it insights into their vision. I got insights in their pain points. I got insights in what they been like like owning sorry, owning

[34:45] did have some shows. Like they had Vogue like 72 items in your closet, 87 questions with like they took the ethos of some other brands and they didn't force-feed like Vogue to just be Vogue. They actually launched shows. But it was

[34:59] like dropping a little shot of vodka in like a puddle on like a 2-liter bottle of water. Like what is that going to do my friends? Like really is that going to transform your business? Now they did recently bring Roger Lynch who was the

[35:12] former Pandora CEO Juste a Mallet. They brought him to kind of like digitize what they do. But man, I mean Conde Nast really had some of the best brands them and Hearst. I mean they really really had like the

[35:26] gold standard of There you go. That's Mr. Lynch. So they really did have like the gold standard of magazines. So I mean don't deserve a C. It's like a B- minus. Just It's also not what they've done by

[35:38] the way. These grades are based on what I believe as an analyst, as a guy that's those that existed before I did, the ones after I did. ones after I did. B- minus. I I did I did as a fan of

[35:50] theirs, I did think that they should be a lot more potent today. I want to ask you before we get to the last entry on the list. What type of business do you think had the hardest had it the hardest? The TV

[36:03] the hardest had it the hardest? The TV broadcasters, the the the newspapers, or printing companies? That is such a good question. And this as a podcast host because that is actually a really nuanced question. And

[36:17] I think context is king. So Let's actually take a few minutes on breakdown. And this is actually like 20 companies. So, the difference was

[36:30] So, the difference was the broadcast companies, ESPN, MTV, you just talking like TV, like broadcast or cable. These guys had the catalog, these guys had the capacity, these guys had the

[36:42] team, these guys had the resources. incentive. You know, remember that pyramid that I created early on in 2006 where you I showed you premium there's

[36:55] no economic incentive for the big Hollywood kind of players to embrace the that advertisers didn't love, but there capitalized in that middle knowing we're not going to kill Hollywood, but if we

[37:09] reinvent storytelling for this audience, we will succeed and here we are. So, the problem with them was not like a lack of capacity, but a lack of desire because of a lack of economic incentive. So, they

[37:21] missed the boat. Disney was late, ESPN was late because it there was like a mismatch. They got disrupted. So, they had it hard because of externalities and because of

[37:36] economic reasons or almost because of like insecurities and because of like specifically, right? Well, I'm just the internet including YouTube, but the internet. Yeah, there you go. Yvon is

[37:50] Yvon is a master, yeah. So, so like there's no reason why ABC, NBC, Fox, or CBS. So, these are network but I mean I include I also include cable brands there, ESPN, MTV. There's no reason why those super

[38:04] premium guys were going to embrace um digital pennies. Made no sense. So, you can't fault them for that. I would be a for saying well, you missed the the boat. You saw the boat. The boat was unattractive to you. You didn't see what

[38:18] was there at the end of this journey. So, they were kind of they had their own little pickle. Now, if you are the New York Times, the New York Time Time, which is magazine, Time launched Pathfinder in the '90s.

[38:32] school dreaming of the future as God knows were early. So, they actually yes, they didn't want to necessarily take their articles and like put it

[38:46] online for free at a time when nobody was paying for content, but they knew that Oh, yeah, and digitally remember what I said? Like we were in the third wave of content. We didn't have to build in the infrastructure and

[38:58] worry about distribution. But imagine if you're a broadcast company like TV media and you had to like upload files to the internet in 2000. Yeah, my friend, And your dial-up beep boop beep boop

[39:12] happening, my friend. Whereas the article guys, the text guys, they were just press a button and then boom, there it goes, and then Google sends you traffic. Now, yes, people were not paying for traffic. They definitely were

[39:26] I say in show one or two? You want to be one step ahead of the market and not five. So, they have the desire, the the the prudent desire, the cautious desire, but they did have the desire, but ultimately, they didn't really have

[39:40] the content as the world started to shift to audio and video, they got disrupted because people don't really, as much as I love reading, people are not going to sit and read 3,000-word article, you know? So, they didn't have

[39:54] I mean, not the I mean, the expertise for multimedia cuz ultimately, that's what the web is. The web is multimedia. So, so who had it harder? It depends on the context. The The TV guys had it harder technically early on

[40:09] guys had it harder technically early on and harder economically, but the the print guys had it harder because they got really in early. The model wasn't there and they didn't really have the goods. They didn't have

[40:22] just had a lot of articles which meant they weren't really ready for this like vicious Mortal Kombat Royal Rumble kind of bloodbath that the internet became, especially as multimedia went global.

[40:36] Yeah, it's true. The print companies had to become multimedia. So that that that required more of an evolution probably than the TV broadcast. That meant a total revolution. Whereas for the broadcaster it was just an

[40:48] So I guess there isn't that as much that separates all these companies anymore, the same playing field. There you go. And they all lost to the Google, the Metas, the Apples. They all lost. I mean basically the world

[41:01] shifted, the power shifted from like at the ad supported and like I'm not obviously tech was always dominant, but this the media world shifted from media really in a hundred years they'll look back and be like, "Oh wow, that was a

[41:15] the I mean we've had the communication revolution, we've had the technological they're going to look back at this period and go like this is when like the power structure shifted from media to tech.

[41:28] Awesome. Well, we have one more entry left on our list of companies that hopefully after this we can check our our poll results those are in. It is The Atlantic. Yeah, I mean The Atlantic, the reason

[41:41] why I when Chachi suggested this I left it is because The Atlantic could have really died, right? The Atlantic was like not necessarily the biggest, it of like New York Times, they didn't have the credibility of

[41:54] Wall Street Journal, it didn't have the cachet of Washington Post that had broken the I believe they had broken the the Goldwater Goldwater Watergate, you old. But they actually transformed themselves

[42:07] But they actually transformed themselves into a really really strong and relevant um, you know, digital brand. So, that's funny. Like, for what they like for for what could have happened, they actually kind of punched above

[42:20] is also a problem where like I'm not talking about the Atlantic per se, but believe that's how you pronounce it. Like if you're too she-she, if you're too bougie, if you think your butt doesn't stink, you you're going to end

[42:34] toilet. Not talking about them. But, like the web is like, yeah, you either be really niche. Niche or niche if you're Canadian. And so, they got to be plus, but at the same time, you know, how relevant is the

[42:48] Atlantic if you really think about it? And anyway, just before we do the poll, visionary leaders who are willing to put their neck on the line and be digitally willing to diversify revenue streams. I think for a lot of these companies like

[43:02] subscription, but they're ad-supported juggernauts, right? They've kind of had a local monopoly. You do need to also like really get data, design, and UX. you're like the New York Times has great UI, you know, a great UI and great UX.

[43:16] User interface, user experience. And then finally, you have to invest in companies, they had a lot of traditional types and traditional middle managers, actually, you know, some bonafides in in digital businesses.

[43:31] like how we reviewed all of those companies. Uh, very big names. And interesting to see how they how far they've come. We have the poll results in now. So, we asked what form of legacy media do you miss the most? And 65% said

[43:45] media do you miss the most? And 65% said TV. Radio came in with 21%. Print at 6%, and the early internet with another 6%. surprised? No, I said TV. That was my my my choice. this a bit I don't know if the term is

[43:57] tautology, but isn't this like a self-fulfilling prophecy? Last week, we your videos? Like YouTube. This week, we asked video viewers, what do you miss? bit of another in hindsight thing, but it's fine. I

[44:13] do have a nostalgia for early internet. Like, I I went online when there was the 97, 98? shut down. I went to a friend's house and we're we're like connect people were

[44:27] like, "Where are you from?" on ICQ or AIM. And I was like, "Montreal." Like, 20 and male or whatever. And they're like, "Oh, it's another crazy ice this." But, then even when I started my career at Mom and Dad Ask Men and, you

[44:40] know, using Hotmail and just like seeing all these things. I was like, "Oh my And then it was really like the Yahoos. It was not the company, like the the misfits, the rebels, the the the risk-takers.

[44:52] don't mind that now it's more mainstream, but there was like a mainstream, but there was like a idealism, a pureness to it. Whereas now, personally. Uh

[45:05] uh who what did Yvon say there? ASL? Well, it wasn't random. The point was I was like trying to get information, but then when people would find out I was in of be doing citizen journalism, if you think about it. People would be asking

[45:20] me, "What's happening? Is this normal?" And yeah, like I remember getting asked that first time ASL. I was like, "Oh my god. What is What am I What am I wading into?" you know. Yeah, MSN Messenger was is my nostalgia

[45:32] for for from early internet. That was my you know, my junior high uh Um well, yeah, we'll never have that back again. don't want to like humble brag and I certainly don't want if this like the

[45:45] person to be like, "Oh, I'm going to cancel it." But, I may be meeting like an icon next week amongst the companies. Like, if I meet him, I will obviously talk about it cuz this person is one of the quintessential storyteller

[45:58] entrepreneurs, like a category of people I love. This a we've covered. I don't of the meetings, they were like, "Okay, we definitely should have a follow-up and this person should will likely join."

[46:11] lie. I was like, "Oh, really?" I was like, I was looking forward to this meeting. So, if it does happen, which is likely not certain yet, I have to little bit about that because it's like the people that I get starstruck-ish

[46:25] when I see are not the people that normal people get starstruck when they Um anyway, so just Well, we'll stay on the call after we All right. All right. Fine. Uh so, to uh just preview next week's

[46:39] episode, we'll be talking we're asking the question, "What inning are we in if the internet was baseball?" How far are we into the game? All right. Well, I'll give a little tease. It's not

[46:52] that No, the bigger question is is it a question of what inning are we in or is this really a best-of-seven series and some games have actually been played and some people have won. And then how far

[47:07] of when the past when I've asked that Cool. That'll be interesting because to come with the way technology is rapidly advancing.

[47:20] conversation. The only search the only constant is There you go. All right. Thanks, everybody. I'll see Friday again? I don't know. You know what?

[47:33] Probable, but not definite yet. All right. Keep your eyes peeled to the WatchMojo YouTube page and we'll send updates next week about when the episode is airing, but either way, you'll be

[47:45] able to check it out afterwards on YouTube. So, until then, be well. We'll see you next time. Thank you.