DF Direct Q&A: How Does the Xbox Reset Impact Project Helix?

[00:04] edition of the Digital Foundry Direct Q&A show. You've got Q's, we've got A's. Um, not sure that came up correctly, but uh either way, uh, joining me on the panel, first of all, Jean Lynman. Hello. >> I have a Q for you, Rich. What's the

[00:17] latest on Count Binface? Uh I have heard that he does have an endorsement from Lord Bucket Face which is it's a crucial uh pivot in the which is it's a crucial uh pivot in the uh in the British political scene.

[00:33] Also joining me it's Oliver McKenzie. Hello. Yes, I do enjoy being kept a breast of the latest UK political developments on this podcast at least in the opening phases of these podcasts. And I'm I'm looking forward to future

[00:48] updates. Okay, good. Um, I guess we should just get on with the questions. But first, this DF Direct Weekly is brought to you in partnership with Alienware. The latest state-of-the-art Alienware Area

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[02:18] the Xbox reset, um, obviously there's a lot of people out there with a lot of uh, we're going to kick off with this question from Will Cooling. Something I don't get about Project Helix. If Microsoft makes so much money from the

[02:33] license fees they receive from third party game sales, why are they building a console that will allow people to access their Steam library? Won't that just encourage developers to not develop Xbox SKUs to avoid paying the fee?

[02:46] Likewise, if Minecraft, Candy Crush, and Call of Duty are the model they want to follow, why even bother releasing a new to you first on this one because, uh, here's the thing, right? We've got

[02:58] basically new management that's come in. Um, they've pressed the giant big red reset button. Therefore, all of the stuff we can kind of like took as red from what Phil Spencer and Sarah Bond was saying, well, we can't actually

[03:13] accept that it's probably the route forward um at this point. So, as we understood it, the issue with uh Project Helix, or rather the plan with Project Helix, the strategy, if you will, was basically for um Xbox to fully embrace

[03:26] basically for um Xbox to fully embrace PC to become a PC effectively, uh include um the Xbox and enhance the Xbox ecosystem, but basically make it a a machine for the ages, so to speak, with you know, a fully open system. Uh now

[03:40] with everything we've heard from Asha Sharma, um do you think that is still the uh the strategy? Because I don't. >> Yeah, I I honestly don't think they totally have a coherent vision, at least not one that survives between

[03:56] administrations as to what the next generation Xbox is going to look like. Because the old vision for the next generation Xbox was basically in my view, right? Whether this is fair or not, I'll leave to the

[04:08] viewer to decide. But in my view, it was basically a pulling out of the console business where they were shipping a high-end next generation PC platform. Maybe they're going to ship some um supplementary devices down the line,

[04:21] initial emphasis was on a very high-end system. And that high-end system would basically run and play PC games. It would be fully open. You could run the Game Store on it. You could run the Steam store on it. famously, you know,

[04:35] it would be a complete multi-platform jack of all trades PC box designed around the um you know, next generation uh Windows interface for Xbox.

[04:47] And uh I'm not totally sure that's the vision at the moment because as Chmeran in a recent interview indicated that the idea that the box would run Steam was maybe something that was not decided or not fully confirmed. Um the emphasis is

[05:00] on affordability. Asher Sharma keeps talking about saving the Xbox and know, she committed to shipping new updates for Xbox Series consoles. I think every two weeks she's talking about having a renewed emphasis on Xbox

[05:15] curious because like that's the I thought that was the old model. I thought that was the uh I thought that was the vision of Xbox that was going the way of the Dodo, you know? I thought we were embracing the new wonderful PC

[05:29] know that we were going back to that version of the Xbox. So, I really do think she values the platform. And I think something that was lost possibly in the transition to the next generation Xbox system is the idea that do we want

[05:45] to give up the platform forever? Because fundamentally, if you're shipping a Steam box on PC, you are giving up the platform forever. And there's so much money in being a platform holder. And that is something that I think once you

[05:58] don't totally know what the next think it might be a more locked down PC box. I don't know. But it is there is a bit of whiplash here because what we're

[06:10] seeing between Xbox administrations, between CEOs, between management is a complete reversal on all the things seemingly that made Helix what Helix is,

[06:22] right? I think they want a complete 180 on a lot of these aspects. And I I don't development process for that console that some of these things can be taken back, you know, especially if it's launching in 2027. I think some of these

[06:37] might have to live with it, but they're going to try to find ways around it. Like maybe you'll be able to finance it off CLA or something. They certainly have some, you know, buy now pay later things and who knows how that will work

[06:49] out and maybe they do block third party storefronts. I don't know. But um perhaps some of those details are being worked out at the moment. It would be incredible if the uh innovative way to get Helix into more people's hands is

[07:02] basically CLA. That would be just remarkable. Uh John, Because you know, basically that has been the long-standing argument against

[07:14] platform. It's like well actually they think you know going back to um what Sarah Bond and Phil Spencer were talking about, I think they were not going to

[07:26] subsidize the hardware. Therefore, um it didn't matter whether um you know if they lost those licensing fees or not to to a certain extent um they would become a store just like Steam, just like Epic

[07:40] Games Store. Uh what do you think is is the future now based on everything Yeah, I mean none of this stuff is obviously officially confirmed, but it does feel like the original idea was to essentially turn the like Windows or

[07:54] into its own central platform that was both for PC and console with like a sort both for PC and console with like a sort of more streamlined uh Xbox focused experience. I mean, we've heard this directly from them that Windows was a

[08:08] huge problem for them, right? And they really wanted to focus on making something that would solve that. And I think that's what they wanted to do with Helix. And a byproduct of this focus was that it would open it up like a PC. So

[08:21] you'd have more of a PC- like device. They'd remove the subsidies as the subsidized model was not working for them. And that's, you know, kind of the vision. Uh but it does seem like everything that's being said by the

[08:33] current leadership, maybe that's not what they want to do. But as you noted, it's like walking stuff back while consoles at this point in development. we end up with something where it's like, hey, the original Windowsbased

[08:48] stuff is kind of there, but we're just going to put big limits on it now, that kind of sucks. You know what I mean? cuz then it just turns it back into what the Xbox was, which they've struggled with, and possibly with side

[09:04] effects of just being like a PC essentially with a less I mean, I don't but >> none of the real benefits that that were >> none of the real benefits that that were potentially in the works. Like I mean I

[09:17] potentially in the works. Like I mean I think this this might not be I the way the console market's going this sudden sharp increase in pricing I feel like the traditional model is going to be under threat. I think Sony's going to

[09:29] find out. Uh and I think with Microsoft as well like selling that original vision at a high price. It makes it easier to swallow that high price when you're getting a flexible device, right? That's not inherently rellyant on

[09:45] specific support from third parties. Cuz the whole point was that the developers are creating PC games that are also going to just work on Xbox, right? I mean, so which that makes it a lot easier for everyone

[10:01] >> in a sense. So, I don't know if they end up with some sort of like weird split height model where like they went so far in this direction, now they're shifting back to this direction, but it doesn't really do either thing

[10:14] at its, you know, optimal. I don't know. We'll see. It's all really, really tricky because um I just don't really understand where they're going now. I mean, say what you like about the um the stuff that Phil

[10:27] and Sarah was saying. It kind of made sense, right? because they went toe-to-toe with Sony in terms of like following a very very similar model, subsidized uh console uh where they basically earned back the money from um

[10:41] game sales, from subscriptions, that kind of thing. It didn't work out that particularly great from them. They tried the Game Pass model where, you know, basically um it's sort of a subscription venture if you like. Um it it worked to

[10:56] an extent. I mean, if they've still got like 30 million subscribers, um, and let's, you know, be quite conservative on this, there's like $10 for every subscriber on average. It's probably higher than that. You know, that's still

[11:09] $300 million of revenue every month. So, you know, you can't really call that a >> no, >> it's it's you know, it's basically well, actually, we need to have Game Pass on PC as well. So it kind of like becomes

[11:23] you the direction of travel is that Microsoft just ends up being a mega publisher with all of these games which is exactly what it is right so we've had that comment recently from Sean Leaden ex of um Sony saying you can either be a

[11:36] platform or you can be a publisher but you can't be both and I kind of think that the original plan was was kind of like trying to be both but skewing more towards the publisher side you know basically having a home piece of

[11:48] hardware but you still trying to get those games to as many gamers as possible. That strategy now I think is effectively dead. The problem that um and obviously now with the current situation affordability is key. The

[12:02] problem is is that the previous vision for um Helix which can't really be changed is that it was designed to be this you know sort of super high-end this you know sort of super high-end premium device um in terms of console

[12:15] but probably would have been super super affordable compared to a pre-built PC. That was my take on it. But now, you know, the the signs that are coming back from um Microsoft's new management is basically, well, actually, we kind of

[12:27] like the the idea of being a console-based platform, just like uh it's the future. And it's like, well, how, you know, they can obviously they

[12:39] want to raise a focus the game releases that are exclusive to that platform um uh for Xbox, but I still don't think it's enough. And you know, ultimately you're still producing on PC. It's it's weird. I don't really understand where

[12:55] they're heading with this. But if it is going to be subsidized hardware, um I guess at least it will be cheaper, but you'll end up paying for it, you know, via a continuation of platform fees and um uh game sales. Um I don't know. It's

[13:12] a weird one. Um anything to add to that, Oliver? >> Uh not too much. Not too much. I just think that it's a curious situation and I am in complete agreement with John, but if you take the PC, right, if you

[13:26] take the Xbox as PC vision and you strip out third party storefronts, I lose enormous interest in what that will look like. I really do because uh generation Xbox is kind of interesting. Even if I don't fully agree with the

[13:42] would probably not be as exciting to me as like a fullyfledged next generation Xbox console. But if you're combining the instability of a PC running on Windows, the issues that poses for games with the idea that you're going to be

[13:56] like a really unexiting and unappealing vision to me. And I really hope that's not what Microsoft does because I think that's like the worst of both worlds in my opinion. So, I hope that um I I think it's probably too late to ship uh I mean

[14:12] degree to which they lock it down, maybe they could deliver something more akin to a next generation Xbox console more in line with uh Xbox Series, but um I mean, who knows at this point? I'm I'm really curious to see what it will look

[14:26] in strategy from current Xbox management. Um, you know, it's it's an interesting one because if they're going to basically rerun um a strategy that's

[14:38] don't really rate their chances. They reached the point now, as we saw with the last generation, where ultimately you still end up playing the same games that look pretty much the same. So, you

[14:51] know, the the amount of investment that's gone into Magnus silicon over um the PlayStation 6 silicon won't really pay off in the way they hope it will. Um so, yeah, I mean Magnus made sense to me in terms of like being a big big

[15:07] processor because it was designed also to be a PC, right? So, you needed to compete with that audience as well. Are they still doing that? Who knows? It's uh it's a crazy time there. um strategizing on the hoof as it were um

[15:21] this late in the day. It's really really dangerous. I'm really curious to see thing of course is the question as to whether they'll actually subsidize it at all because you know they're talking about innovative um models there and

[15:34] they've talked about hardware partners. So, you know, it could be the case that if they produce a reference uh console, a reference design, and then, you know, if you want an Xbox, you might be buying an Asus one or an MSI one or or

[15:47] whatever. Um, very, very interesting. But, um, yes, the viability of the model is going to come down to the strategy and everything is to play for. It's just changing management what that's going to be. Let's move on. Question here from

[16:04] Daniel Kilpatrick. Hello lovely lads of the foundry. Is me hoping that Project Helix will still have an optional disc drive? Unrealistic. I'm hoping for Xbox to still have it as an option even if the physical version costs more to cover

[16:19] manufacturing costs. Um so John, we you know between us we'd kind of written off physical media on Xbox um for next generation like years ago I think probably. Um has your opinion on that changed?

[16:34] >> Largely no. like I don't think that's like part of their strategy at this point. They've been focusing on pushing people away from that towards Game Pass and other digital options and Microsoft as a company of course that's where they

[16:47] want to go. The only way I could see the change and I I don't think it will just total out of the side is like based on how reactionary Sharma seems to be so far. Uh just like making like what feels like

[17:03] rash decisions from the outside. They may not be. That's just external observation. I could see a scenario where they're like, "Well, Sony just did ahead and put the disc drive back in or something." You know what I mean? This

[17:16] like I really don't know. It would be an interesting gambit though if they did matter because they've conditioned the Xbox audience away from that, but it would it would be interesting to see them take advantage of Sony's stumbles

[17:31] basically. I think I I I just think it's basically the future for them in terms of handling this this transition is disc to digit disc to digital even and if the what we've heard about this so-called project

[17:45] uh posetron comes to pass >> at least somebody has a plan for heard nothing from Sony beyond three paragraphs so yeah I think that would

[17:57] probably be uh the Xbox strategy and I think it's a winning one if you know your competition is sitting there on their thumbs uh not telling you whether you know here's the thing right um you can buy Wolverine on PlayStation 5 on

[18:12] can buy Wolverine on PlayStation 5 on disc is if you buy it on on disc will you be able to play it on your PlayStation 6 who knows at this point nobody knows >> at least with um uh the Positron

[18:24] you've got a disc you'll have a seamless transition into the into the digital area and we'll look after you uh in that respect although of Of course, the uh recent stuff that's happening online about people having their Microsoft

[18:37] accounts cancelled arbitrarily with no means to get it back just reminds us of how tenuous the uh the digital account is and the dangers associated with it. Um but Oliver, what do you think of the optional disc drive? Kind of sort of

[18:51] like something you might want but probably not going to happen. >> Yeah, I hope it does have some kind of disc drive attachment, but I'm not hopeful. And ultimately, I do think the way they're going to address the disc

[19:03] market is with the Positron, the disc to digital program. Um, but I think that will probably require an Xbox Series X console or maybe I don't know, Xbox One, who knows, but it's going to require a console with a disc drive. And in

[19:16] theory, you know, I know that this is not really what um what John would like I I acknowledge it's a really imperfect solution for people who do like disc games, but in theory, if you do use that

[19:28] console to move your games over to next generation uh system and you don't sell entitlements, maybe you could even sell your Series X, you know, you could port those games over. And I think that's a probably a more positive

[19:41] probably a more positive vision at the moment um than what Sony seems to be offering, I guess. I don't know. I still think that the the best way for them to go about it is to ship some kind of disc drive attachment for

[19:53] next generation Xbox even if that disc drive uh does not necessarily attach to the unit very neatly, even that that disc drive is very vestigial in nature. this disc to digital stuff is it does seem to be the way that Microsoft is

[20:06] going though and at least it does offer some accommodation for people who do something that um I don't know that we're necessarily seeing a similar vision from Sony although it's obviously too early to tell there

[20:21] just like one of those sort of USB attachments would do the job just fine right um something something a bit more elegant like the uh PlayStation current gen solution would would be nice I I think one of the issues that's been

[20:33] brought up in the past which has merit to it is that actually sourcing optical drives is a bit challenging at the moment because the demand for them has dropped off. So therefore fewer of them are made which means that a company like

[20:46] Microsoft unlike Sony that can make them they kind of have to pay market rate for them. So yeah, I think ultimately though it is still going to be some sort of big transition point where it's like, okay, this is happening. Maybe you don't like

[20:59] it, but you know, you'll at least be able to take your games with you. Um, questions here. I've grouped them together. This one from Tony Escobar. Was Game Pass a failure? Is it possible to sway Sony by cancelling PlayStation

[21:15] Plus? Sharing Jon's feelings at the moment. Slowar says, "Now that I step back to premium and change stores to Mexico, I'm wondering what the point is, games. My backlog features most of the

[21:28] same games. Why pay when I can barely keep up?" Anyway, I'm I'm kind of curious about this stepping back to premium and change stores to to Mexico. I'm assuming this is some sort of subscription hack or a way to get

[21:41] cheaper games. Um um John, this whole thing at the moment? First of all, I think um Tony Escobar here is basically saying um I don't know two things seemingly. Um first of all, was

[21:57] Game Pass a failure? I think Well, that's that's a whole can of worms, isn't it? But is it possible to say it sways Sony by cancelling PlayStation Plus? Um, I think that's basically part of the protest movement that's that's

[22:10] that's sprung up in the light of Sony's announcement here, which is basically to announcement here, which is basically to revenue starve Sony. Um, do you think it's going to happen, man? It's I I don't think it's pos I

[22:24] don't know. It doesn't feel possible to sway them these types of things. It's just this is the type of decision that's so big. I feel like it's too late at so big. I feel like it's too late at this point. But also, we can never lose

[22:36] this point. But also, we can never lose hope and hitting them financially is not a bad move in that regard, right? Like if enough people are actually rising up necessarily change their minds, but it could potentially

[22:50] could potentially uh alter the future, shall I say? Like none of this stuff matters, not important, blah blah blah." I disagree. I think Microsoft would disagree that

[23:02] you you mess up with with the internet at large and customers at large like that and it can haunt you and it absolutely did with Xbox One, right? And

[23:14] I do think the internet reaction to all of that played a huge role in that of that played a huge role in that scenario. I think Sony can go too far and anger enough people. I don't think discs being removed alone will matter.

[23:28] Uh, I do think that the high price is going to contribute to it. Presuming that's what it's going to launch at. I think this combination of removing an option really high price is either it's going to result in people that are one

[23:41] the hardcore people may choose not to support it because they're not happy with it. But then the less hardcore people may just not get into it due to people may just not get into it due to cost, right? And be like, well, I I

[23:53] can't afford this. I'm not going to get in on it. So, I don't know. Oh, it regard, but we'll see. Like, you know, how these businesses go. >> Well, from my perspective, this works in two directions, right? Because um

[24:06] certainly um the strategy here from Sony seems to be about quote unquote optimizing revenue, you know, basically to get more money from >> Yeah. From from the audience, right? But in in the uh making that decision,

[24:20] they've obviously made the calculations, probably anticipated that people would be unhappy and have canled, but have come to the conclusion that ultimately in the end it's probably going to work and it's going to make them more money

[24:34] and that the outrage will die down. I I do note I just uh revisited the uh change.org don't kill the disc campaign. It's 315,000 verified signatures which is absolutely fantastic.

[24:48] uh 5,800 people signed today, but the momentum there is slowing down, right? I >> I think it is. And I think Rich though that and this is where I hope has an impact. It's like again the hardcore people are the ones that care the most

[25:03] about this and those tend to be the ambassadors for your new platform, >> right? You don't want to anger them and I think that that is a risk. There was also some other points raised recently that annoyed me thinking about it is uh

[25:15] so this slowar mentioned change stores to Mexico. Right. >> Right. And as it is now on PlayStation, every like account has to be associated with a different region. And it's kind of a

[25:29] pain in the butt to like pay and deal with multiple regions. And that sucks because uh I realized at least for myself like playing imported games is something I enjoy and do all the time, right? And not every game supports every

[25:45] language that you would want. and uh that creates potential problems down the line in terms of accessing this stuff. Like it's still possible to buy from other marketplaces, but it can be quite annoying. It's not something they want

[26:00] through hoops to do it and that's another thing that sucks. I mean, obviously, again, as a company, they don't want that, but that puts a huge >> Um, we actually put up a poll on our YouTube channel. We had 62,000 results.

[26:17] Um, and um, basically the question was this, are you considering moving from PlayStation to PC? 19% no, I'm sticking with PlayStation. 27% yes, I'm seriously considering it. 53% I've already switched to PC. Now, the time scale of

[26:33] It's probably not in the last couple of weeks, I think, to be clear. But what it does show is basically certainly within our audience, it's kind of like, well, our audience, it's kind of like, well, yeah, okay. um uh PC probably is the

[26:46] platform I want to move towards you know in the fullness of time when the time is right and pro perhaps because the uh amount of games from Sony this generation hasn't been particularly pr prolific the the switch has already

[26:59] begun the uh the the move away from PlayStation might have already begun or it might simply be that people have just looked at the responses here and just want to produce the most reactionary outcome but

[27:13] But um it's even that is a reflection of consumer sentiment about the brand which I don't think um Sony should ignore. But you know based on everything we've seen so far ignoring it does seem to be the strategy going forward doesn't it? Um

[27:28] let's move on to the next question. This one comes from uh Clockwork M. Dearest smelters of silicon, with recent news making John express two weeks in a row that quote unquote, "This is the worst thing PlayStation or Xbox has ever

[27:41] done," Nintendo appears to be following Luigi's strategy of winning by doing nothing at all. Is this a Luigi strategy? Um, anyway,

[27:53] with uh Nintendo seemingly the only remaining console platform holder that could remotely be considered ethical to their employees/consumerfriendly, is the worst thing, i.e. business decision Nintendo has ever done in DF's

[28:08] opinion. Bonus question. Let's tempt the fates and ask what could Nintendo realistically announce in the near future that would cause John to say this is the worst thing Nintendo has ever done that would be of equal or greater

[28:21] damage to Sony and Microsoft's self-inflicted footargeted gunshot wounds. Excellent work with all your videos. Please stay strong slash be in good health amid the recent industry setbacks.

[28:37] interesting because it's really difficult to answer whereas with Sony or Microsoft it's actually very very easy and lo and behold they've done it. Uh so what could Nintendo do that would be the worst thing ever? Well I mean as far as

[28:53] what they've done so far that it's it's hard to say for sure but I would probably start to look at some of the legal stuff they've done some of the years. remember that that Gary Bowser

[29:07] situation, like when you actually read up on how that went out, like it's it's pretty vile. I don't know. I mean, I understand protecting your your IP and all that, but the way that they approach this, I think, is is too harsh. And I

[29:21] they've been notoriously bad with community and fan projects and all that And again, I get it. They want to protect their IP, whatever. But there's a reason that Nintendo's legal force is

[29:34] So, right, >> but that's not that consumer facing necessarily. So, if we're talking about decisions on that front, I mean, I wasn't I'm not really offended by it,

[29:50] but like the Wii U is a just in general was a pretty gigantic blunder. Personally, if I had to say I actually really never I never liked that that like blue ocean Wii stuff they went for.

[30:04] Like I like the Wii, but things like Wii music and all those types of games like that, I really didn't like those. I still don't really like those. And it's just a period of time in Nintendo's history where like I just have no real

[30:17] interest in those games. Like I'm not mad at them. So it doesn't actually like make me angry or anything. It's just like I don't have any interest in playing these things and I don't collect for it. Those that era of Nintendo games

[30:30] >> I don't think you could answer the question, John, cuz that's just basically they they tried to make some games. They didn't particularly put one for you. >> I really in terms of just

[30:42] >> what do you do then? I man >> I think you've actually got a really good point with some of the legal shenanigans stuff that you that they've done there and also that they're kind of uh they really were testing the limits

[30:54] uh they really were testing the limits of of um trying to get emulation um >> Yeah. Yeah. All that's what I mean all the legal stuff they've done over the years. There's a lot of stuff in there I really don't like. So that's not great.

[31:07] But it's it's difficult, right? Because you don't have uh widescale layoffs with with Nintendo, right? >> It just just doesn't happen. Um they are >> Yeah. >> I mean, they could have

[31:21] said, yeah, it was a failure, blah blah blah, but when you actually think about it, there's still a lot of amazing games released for it. So, it's it's not like the failure of a platform can be thrown as like, oh, they this is a huge thing

[31:33] that they did that's terrible. Yet it wasn't an anti-consumer thing, you know, not thing. Yeah, >> I'm enjoying this question because we can't really answer it. Oliver, do you have any particular insights here what

[31:46] >> has done or could do that would be anything like what Sony and Microsoft >> Insights would be a strong word, Rich. But I do have opinions. I do have >> Um I think for me just in terms of

[32:00] decisions that I didn't like, not that were bad decisions, but things I didn't were bad decisions, but things I didn't like, uh the revolution, aka the Wii, uh Wii, um I think I think uh the Wii, not not in

[32:15] the Wii because obviously the Wii was very successful, but um just for me not my bag. I think they were a bit of a flash in the pan. did not work out that

[32:27] well long term. Uh not that comfortable ultimately. Um technically obviously it a developer described it as two Gamecubes duct taped together and that was uh kind of accurate in some respects at least in terms of clock rates and

[32:42] whatnot. It basically was that. Um and I kind of checked out that generation to a large degree. I did check out I mean I had a Wii. Um I played the Super Mario titles but I didn't buy that many Wii games. Um, I actually preferred the Wii

[32:56] U to be honest with you. Like I played more Wii U titles probably in the end than I did Wii titles. And looking back, it also causes issues for the the legacy

[33:08] of Nintendo software, which is a shame because I love Nintendo software, but when you look at a Wii game and you're trying to adapt it for a current generation system, like you're trying to create a Switch 2 port or something, um

[33:21] the control question, motion controls, things like this, all get in the way of these kinds of imperfect solutions. like maybe you use gyro to approximate the use the touchcreen to approximate some, you know, pointer functionality like we

[33:37] see in the Super Mario Galaxy games. That's okay. It's not great. We also see similar compromises in titles like Legend of Zelda Skyward Sword. Again, been designed on a controller to begin with, we wouldn't be having this uh

[33:51] platforms like the Switch. It's also a problem with uh platforms like the DS and 3DS because obviously the Switch one, Switch 2, they're not dual screen systems. Causes issues for games, which is kind of a shame because I love a lot

[34:04] wouldn't play very well, at least without huge adaptation on a platform like the um you know, on a platform like the Switch. I mean, there are some titles that manage to do it. Um titles like the Ace Attorney collection where

[34:17] they basically go in and redo the entire interface. That's the way to do it. So, because at the time I didn't like those systems, but looking back, I often can't play those games in a satisfactory form because the paradigms have homogenized

[34:34] around single screen, 12 button, dual stick, and that's not really what the systems were about, right? So, it seems to me that uh we've got So, it seems to me that uh we've got issues with uh their legal shenanigans.

[34:47] There's also their attempts to paint patent gameplay elements. But in terms of like um stuff that's uh unethical, bad treatment

[34:59] of employees, bad treatment of consumer, I think we're coming up empty here to be honest with you. And in actual fact, when you think about what Switch was had two revenue sources, right? it had a handheld uh system in um and and it and

[35:14] it would have a home console. They've actually rationalized that into one system now, which I'd say is very very consumer friendly. So, you don't have to buy the same game twice to play it uh on your screen at

[35:27] home and uh in handheld form. I think that's pretty cool. So, it seems to me that um maybe everybody should be buying Switch Twos. Uh and with that, let's move on. Okay, so uh this question comes from Alan, the legendary Allan from the

[35:43] Discord. Um, hi guys. Would it be better if everyone buys the physical, uh, code in a box version of GTA 6, so they have a physical momento, but more importantly, take two, PlayStation, and Microsoft receive less profit/money than

[35:57] they would from a digital sale. Uh, this is sort of like, what do you think, John? Gorilla tactics here. I don't know about this. I I mean the only message it would send is like uh yeah, we bought your game,

[36:11] here's money. I don't know. Like I don't think this would I I don't think they would read the numbers in a way I don't think numbers could be influenced in a think numbers could be influenced in a way to do anything on that front. Right.

[36:23] >> So that's funny though. I'll give him that. >> I'm just kind of amused by this concept of a physical momento. I mean I guess it would be like a a standard box. It's like it's like those cases you get for

[36:37] pre-ordering games back in the day or something. I don't know. >> Here's this empty box. Enjoy. >> Yeah. I mean, ultimately, everyone is still making a lot of money if you buy GTA 6, Allan. That's the the bottom

[36:49] line. Slightly less money. I mean, they'll take it and they'll be happy and they'll take it and they'll be happy and they'll be thankful for it. Um, Oliver, >> yeah, I think uh if you're planning to stick it to the platform holders and

[37:03] publishers by buying a game that they profit off of, that's probably something they don't care about in their metrics. That maybe also sends the wrong idea about um you know whether you'll accept code in a box because I mean ultimately

[37:18] what GTA 6 is is it's a preview of the future starting 2028 when every single game at retail is just a little box with a code in it. And that's not really the interested in. Like ultimately a code in a box is not I mean a physical momento.

[37:35] Sure you'll have a case with nothing in it of value, right? But I don't think interested in. Even if they do like having, you know, jewel cases up in their cabinets and things like that. I can understand that, but just seems kind

[37:48] of uh kind of fruitless, useless, futile. These kinds of words would describe that kind of approach in my opinion. considering the code in the box, bearing

[38:02] in mind the lack of alternatives, is that if it is like retailers that are selling the codes in boxes, then there could well be some kind of competition that sees the fact that you as the end user may actually see um uh get the game

[38:16] PlayStation store. So, that's kind of like probably the best reason uh to consider the code in a box. physical momento though. I find that quite uh quite amusing for some reason an empty box. Yay.

[38:37] question and it is also the final one. Uh this one comes from JL. Hi DF. In the spirit of trying to talk about positive things, can you give me your quintessential PlayStation 3 experiences? What game would you like to

[38:50] see get the Assassin's Creed Black Flag Reynct treatment? Well, that's an you've just spent a lot of time with Black Flag Reynct. And if that sort of to do it, isn't it? It's just a fantastic release.

[39:05] fantastic release. >> Yeah. I mean, at the outset, I wasn't it. I mean, it did not really seem to me like it was going to be the full-on seeing, basically. I mean, not literally a full-on remake, but close to it, at

[39:19] things, because yeah, they did go through replace all the assets adding tremendous new lighting systems, strand hair, cloth physics, crazy water

[39:31] strand hair, cloth physics, crazy water tessillation, uh, so many things to looks looks like a totally different game. And in terms of PS3 titles that be some overlap between my answer and John's, but um I wouldn't mind seeing

[39:47] that treatment for the Motorstorm games because all three are brilliant. All three are great technical showcases of what the PS3 could do. Um, and yeah, visual remakes that preserve the kind of artistic intent of those games while

[40:01] substantially redoing models, assets, lighting, weather effects, adding things like ray tracing, um, temporal upscaling, all these kinds of things. I mean, that would be absolutely incredible. Um, but I I honestly don't

[40:14] Like, just simple ports would suffice. But I really hope that Sony looks at with it. Maybe something in the middle where like they do kind of like what Bluepoint did with the Uncharted games with the Uncharted 1 to3 uh collection

[40:28] they went back and they kind of touched up some assets. Maybe they touched up and there to make it scale to higher resolutions, but they didn't go whole hog with like a full-on remake. But yeah, there are a lot of PS3 games that

[40:42] mean, obviously the Uncharted Collection, Killzone 2, Little Bigplet titles, Metal Gear Solid 4, although obviously we're seeing Konami is going a bit of a different route with that one. Um, lots of games on PS3 that I'm a huge

[40:55] fan of that could see remix the Infamous titles. Infamous one and two, both very very curious. I mean, the problem with these kinds of reinct approaches is that they're so labor intensive. like they're they're more labor intensive I I think

[41:11] to produce the remake of Assassin's Creed Black Flag than to produce the original game in terms of manh hours and money. Right. So this is not a trivial and actually give it this fullon treatment.

[41:26] >> yeah, I mean there's a lot of cool stuff on the Triple for sure and a lot of it remains exclusive to the Triple. Some of it I think I could be translated over overhauling visuals. I mean obviously I'm always a Ridgeraer fan. So Ridgeraer

[41:43] 7 released on Switch 2 I think as is with like 4K rendering support for TVs 1080p native on the screen would be awesome and cheap. I think Namco should Motorstorm, but I think all those games are great, but Motorstorm 1 in

[41:59] particular, I think visually holds up in a way that's like genuinely shocking. When you see it running on an emulator, uh, especially with the ultra wide patch and high resolution, you're like, man, you could release this today like as is,

[42:12] and it would still be an attractive game, right? Like they did such a good design in that game. I mean, the only thing I could say like you really want to improve is maybe like Shadow Resolution, but everything else it's

[42:25] just gorgeous. It's still a beautiful game. Resistance, I think people always think Resistance 3 is the best of that bunch and it feels like it's something that you don't hear people talk about. It just kind of disappeared and it's

[42:40] there. But it was a really beautiful game for PS3 and had this like very active scenes, right, with a lot of secondary animations throughout every stage in a way that made it look super dramatic. I mean, Killzone, of course,

[42:53] as well. I would like to see Capcom bring back uh EX Troopers, which never got a western release. I think you could just release that on Switch 2 and it would be cool. That was the uh anime cell-shaded spin-off of Lost Planet, by

[43:08] the way. But it's a it's a really really cool little game. Um I like that Puppeteer >> again do a 60 fps version of Puppeteer on a modern platform. No other visual changes needed. Just 60 fps higher res

[43:23] would be amazing. It's it's still good. >> Uh 3D.Game Heroes. That's another one. if you guys have played that published by From Software, but it's basically like a Zelda one spiritual successor kind of game made with uh it looks it's

[43:39] not, but it looks like it's made up of like voxels like it was made in Magika of Vox uh Magic of Voxil or whatever. It's really really neat looking cool little game. And then a couple more. I like folklore. I thought that was always

[43:52] a really underrated sort of like RPG actiony game that's still really beautiful. And then there's uh Rain or Lost in the Rain depending on which Lost in the Rain depending on which version which is the I have the Asian

[44:07] physical release of that and it's the most uh valuable game in my entire PS3 collection often selling for like 600 700 bucks on the used market cuz it there wasn't a lot of them cuz it was mo in the west it was a digital only game

[44:21] but it got a disc release in Asia. So, but it's a really cool it kind of it's but it's a really cool it kind of it's it's it's like a a bit of a like limbo it's it's like a a bit of a like limbo uh eco sort of like cinematic

[44:35] platforming, but it relies on like rain as a mechanic and it's a really atmospheric cool journey. But yeah, I mean that's just some games. But the Triple for all its flaws, like when when I look back on the Triple, I realize

[44:49] I look back on the Triple, I realize like all the good PS3 only stuff largely runs well and still looks good, right? All the problems that the PS had with performance and the reason why it was slogged off so often on Digital Foundry

[45:04] doesn't matter anymore because all those games are on PC, right? So, it's like PS3 because you wouldn't want to play that version anyway. It's all all the good stuff that's just on PS3 runs great and looks great. So, uh that's kind of

[45:21] an interesting realization I had about the PS3's legacy is like the the weak points no longer matter basically. >> Yeah, that's an interesting perspective and and you're quite right. I mean, you know, just going back to talking about

[45:33] Black Flag Reynings there. I think there is actually um, you know, an experience quintessential, was, you know, the original Assassin's Creed and the X Exo games, um, where things really started to to come into their own. Yeah. Yeah, I

[45:48] quintessential PlayStation 3 experience, having done most of the platform comparisons back in the day was that it wasn't as good as the Xbox 360 and Assassin's Creed was like one of the original games where it was kind of like

[46:02] super super apparent. But, you know, I still think there is that, you know, the the experience that Assassin's Creed offered back in the day was uh something new and exciting, right? >> Hey, Black Flag itself is on the PS4.

[46:15] want to play it there. No. >> But um yeah, so I think you know um if the rumors are true and we're going to see the original game getting a resin settings there, which is fantastic. Similarly, you know, um the the consumer

[46:31] Similarly, you know, um the the consumer sentiment is basically to um do what um basically amass all of the Etsio games into a single resined release. I think that would be a brilliant way forward as well. Um but yeah, you know, it's funny.

[46:45] Well, recently did the um uh RPCS3 on PS5 uh Linux, and it was great to go back to all of those games that are sort of trapped on PlayStation 3 and uh and

[46:57] experience them again for good or bad. And you know, hopefully they will actually sort that out. um uh on PlayStation 6 that is that because they will have the horsepower to properly emulate PS3 at that point and you know

[47:11] deliver substantial graphical upgrades which should be optional. But the I PlayStation experience was probably Uncharted 2. >> Mhm. >> Uh which was you know just like

[47:23] absolutely absolutely phenomenal. And um but you can play that on PlayStation 4 at 60fps uh via Blueoint and um yeah, expect to see patches for that for hacked consoles for that to be running at much higher

[47:37] >> Also, maybe to our audience, would you guys ever like to see a video where we go back to the worst games on PS3 or 360, the ones that run like absolute garbage and just look at them like >> Far Cry 3? And it's always one of my

[47:51] favorites cuz it's Shadow of Mordor. So a Oh >> yeah, that's a bad one. Yeah, that was We could probably do that. That would be interesting. Yeah, I I noticed on a tweet I saw the other day that Far Cry 4

[48:04] or maybe Far Cry 3, you know, even today's um hardware 5080 and 9800 X3D is today's um hardware 5080 and 9800 X3D is still only doing like 70 FPS. Amazing. >> Yeah, people love to see bad games for

[48:20] some reason. So maybe we should consider it. Um, okay. Right. Well, that was the show. So, please do like, subscribe, share if you enjoyed it, ring bells for have supporter program at patreon.com/digitalfoundry?

[48:34] there. But that's all from us on this one. Thanks for watching and supporting Digital Foundry, and we'll see you soon.