Discussing the Twitch Adpocalypse with PirateSoftware

[00:03] people that talk in chat and then you're like in chat and they have the mic and worried about that at all yeah no so like the reason I did the burritos to begin with is the internet doesn't understand anything about math like ever

[00:17] going to pay attention to that [ __ ] they're just going to get like oh a wall into something that's funny so we a long while back we're like how how good are let's start seeing how much ad revenue is actually coming through

[00:30] difference is on a per month basis to see if that lines up with the rest of the industry this actually allowed me to see in my small amount of data if twitch we could see across the internet if it's following normal ad spend rates Now

[00:45] understand not an expert on ad sped rates but am an expert on turning that into Revenue that I can use with things you are an expert at that yes yeah yeah need to find out exactly how much ad Riven I'm making what are the trends for

[00:57] this I need to know when those ad spends are going through so I can understand how much ad Revenue am I going to make throughout the year when are the for this and there are a couple of anomalies in there like I I shouted them

[01:09] out in that post which is kind of weird but it showed me that this is still getting in are still within normal thresholds for this and an ad apocalypse is going to crash and the only times that I have seen anybody's ad Revenue

[01:23] drop now is when it's tag based and those tag based things are really awful AD Revenue [ __ ] based on tags I think that's terrible it doesn't make any user then has to go like well why did my ad rate drop and it's just based on the

[01:37] tags that are in there which is dumb honestly yeah so like outside of that misfired on some of those so like one guy got demonetized because he had Iran in his title and I can understand that twitch would just add that to a list and

[01:50] then just be like oh all of these are politics Iran is at War right now let's not have that in there right so like I get why some of those misfires would go off the splash damage would happen with but the overall numbers that we're

[02:02] have not been impacted by the tags is it's exactly the same year over-year and maybe there is something that's going on down the road maybe there are advertisers pulling out but my point is we don't have the data to prove that yet

[02:17] problem that I have with this where I'm like there is no ad apocalypse currently everyone's claiming there is but we don't have the data to prove that okay we have to separate two issues here right like the first issue is the ads

[02:31] and tag system so the tag system I think has nothing to do with the overall situation of ads on Twitch that that is to say that like people getting demonetized I just made a pretty long form post on Twitch on Twitter trying to

[02:45] explain what's going on that I'm seeing as an ad buyer and what the tag system which basically is exactly what you said like they did the most brain dead boring way of like basic way of doing this right like they just they they exported

[03:00] demonetize if you have a political tag right and that's that so I think hit a whole bunch of stuff too it's IR Iran saying that it's hitting them like it's all kinds of stuff that it's hit and

[03:13] it's like what why would you do it that way yeah you know that's just splash damage people like it's got to be based on content classification or categories with another tags is not the way to do it because they're userdefined and we

[03:25] put memes in there you know like if if you got a bunch of meme tags on your dropped 90% you're just going to think that you're screwed you're not going to that would ever be a thing that you would change it's very strange so I

[03:39] think we're totally aligned on that issue like like would you agree yeah no absolutely yeah okay so I think that the the the the issue then is in the second the the the issue then is in the second part which is the the cpms that okay so

[03:52] let's let's start a little while back I I I know you know a lot about business professional and and like we're going to we're going to get into it like and I conclusion here I didn't mean to miss like I I have such an utmost respect for

[04:06] broadcasting so like I don't ever want you to think that I'm coming at you from a bad angle and I'm sorry if I sound it that way like like the the the way um it it okay so what let's let's go we can get into that later so okay so the the

[04:21] get into that later so okay so the the CPM thing previously you remember a time when twitch broadcasters monetized via flat CPM so all all of the ads ad money that you got paid was based on a flat CPM in your contract right

[04:36] no I don't I don't have any extra are you talking about like an extra contract on top of the partner contract is no so so the the standard partner agreement from 2012 to 20122 like the like most of the history

[04:48] 20122 like the like most of the history of twitch was a was a flat CPM and that number was between um anywhere from $2.5 to $5 okay um so so streamers could you had like a like a Boke deal with twitch you get I never I never had a

[05:03] special deal never did never have still don't that's crazy okay um yeah yeah you probably should probably should I don't so I've got I've got the standard partner agreement I never had any changes I

[05:16] after my channel popped off um it's been exactly the same I think since God I something like that yeah never had to redo it never ever did you have a do you have a partner manager I do yeah okay contract has ever changed uh I think

[05:31] they should give you preferential sub that's a whole another discussion but okay but um I got my 7030 because I got my sub points that's it got it okay yeah so so okay so from from 20 from 2022 to 2024 there was a significant change in

[05:45] you can go back to the old partner contract you can look at what you signed will tell you your flat CPM per territory and so what changed from in 2022 is they moved from a flat CPM basis to a percentage basis of the ad Revenue

[06:00] spend that they make okay can I find this under the current partner agreement streamer agreement is in the is it in a different one if you go to your dashboard and you go to uh I'll do the same thing and we go

[06:14] partner agreement yeah so you may receive a fee equal to the percentage revenue for advertisements displayed or broadcast on your Twitch Channel during your live stream performance um 55% is that I don't think they give you a CPM

[06:29] it's 30% yeah so now they give you they give you 30% if you don't run 3 minutes of ads per hour and they give you 55% if you run 3 minutes of ads or more per hour and i' I've run four minutes of ads basically forever because of that yes

[06:41] and so so a really important note here is that previously you were paid a flat is that previously you were paid a flat CPM based on just the $2.5 to5 number and now that is a percentage 55 or 30% of the CPM they get it's a huge

[06:54] remember they gave me like an ad offer back in November of 2022 that offer was high I think it was 1300 at the time it was yeah December it dropped down to to like 700 and then February went down to 500 and it like decreased over time

[07:10] percentage based system that we're talking about now I remember that yeah yep those numbers same page okay so so now that we're on the percentage system what that means is that twitch can sell an ad for let's say a $10 CPM they can

[07:28] sell it for a $20 CPM or a $11 CPM and you will get a CPM by percentage is relevant to the ad that they sell but we can't know that data right because we don't have nobody has even twitch sales doesn't have a complete view of how

[07:42] advertising revenue is distributed across the entire platform right so oh yeah no absolutely in fact I've asked them for that um I made a user voice for this a while back asking like hey we need more analytics on ad Revenue

[07:54] specifically calling that out actually I'll say this to you right now okay and Okay so there therein is the essential oh you actually did holy [ __ ] yeah I did it's back in um it's March 30th 2023 is when

[08:08] um I even had a conversation with Mike Minon on Twitter publicly about my ad Revenue at the time yes talking about specifically this problem and in fact with right now which is lack of transparency for ad Revenue so we've

[08:22] way to term with the numbers exactly okay I've done the same thing I've had I've talked to Aragon about this yeah okay so okay so we're on exactly Mike you can't see the thread anymore which sucks but like yeah no this is i' I've

[08:37] been bitching at twitch about this for years yeah okay so same page so so um so years yeah okay so same page so so um so because this is an issue we can it's basically made everything nebulous about this topic and this subject right is

[08:52] set all the foundations to get to where we are here and where I think like kind of the center of the disagreement is is that like um if if you are saying that there is no ad apocalypse because we don't have 100% verifiable data that

[09:08] there is a change in twitch cpms on a macroscopic level you are correct in saying that but um the problem is that data is not possible to get right like like even twitch themselves don't have that data or or or and if even if they

[09:21] did they're not like I I can tell you they don't have that ad data cuz I run and and and they don't even give it to the US the buyers to convince us to run kind of like targeting they don't have any kind of um of distribution there

[09:35] on to run ads like compared to something like ad sensor meta right correct the problem I keep running into is that people are saying oh my ad revenue is dropping dramatically and you go and look at it if you look at any one of

[09:48] trick track uh twitch track or I'll pull them up on snome and it's like dude you month of course you R Revenue drops and this keeps happening time every single that or they were running a tag that was demonetized or they were running like

[10:03] the content classification stuff that's going on their Channel there has not been any type of evidence that proves this narrative and yes there may be a like oh my the ad apocalypse is coming maybe twitch is losing advertisers the

[10:17] problem I keep running into is people are posting it as a fact that is already occurring when we don't have the data to prove that right okay but aren't you doing the exact same thing respectfully okay as as

[10:29] I'm the data that is yeah what I'm showing is I'm showing the data that is available that shows that nothing has happened yet when it does happen I can post that data and be like it has happened this is occurring now yes but

[10:42] what about the people that are doing the work in journalism showing you that personally said that they are stopping ads like if we don't have data to what because twitch doesn't have that data then we have to go to secondary or

[10:57] like someone like me where I have personally talked to ipg omnicron I'm I can tell you like categorically that brands have POS have paused their um

[11:09] brands are right so you have to think about it this way right as a streamer this is this is going to sound a little bit weird that side of that business is me is what actually comes Downstream well there may be a change in ad spend

[11:24] advertisers or they shift things around in a way where a streamer does not actually get a change in Revenue that's kind of irrelevant when it comes down to to plan for and think about in the future but there is no proof of change

[11:38] that I have to care about if the trend changes over previous income then yeah but there's no proof of change yet it may be something of like hey the sky the sky has already fallen it's already over it's a dead game right that kind of

[11:54] a thing that's going on and that's not correct understood I think the reason why you do have to care is because this will represent for for you like a 20 to 30% decline in ad Revenue total over the course of the last of the next two

[12:08] course of the last of the next two years so so that's the problem what that's that's the issue that I have you say it will do this yes we don't have the data to prove that we do as much as no it's just not hard data it's

[12:22] secondary and tertiary data secondary and tertiary data is just fine right if things stay exactly the same if the things that people are saying are true then yes this could happen but that's the problem with that if things stay

[12:34] exactly the way that they are and that's not how things work we have to wait and see like it's it's easy to be like oh this is a dead thing this is really you all this ad Revenue it's totally game over nobody should be in streaming

[12:47] know what I think the the bigger issue with this is over anything else what it's trying to call that this has actually happened before it actually has when you start to do that you start to make people not want to spend on the

[13:01] platform and it starts becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy in that way when you know you know as well as I do when an Advertiser goes like Oh man because nobody else is advertising that everyone's talking about it

[13:14] prophecy so what you're having here is from me from my perspective is we have numbers that still look exactly the same to me on a downstream basis we have if it has already occurred and there's no evidence to show that it has occurred

[13:27] even though there's a potential that could okay can I let me just give you Congressional meetings that have been announced pulling in Dan Clancy Richie Tores has made tweets that says that they're going to call Twitch in to have

[13:40] a discussion about anti-Semitism and and bad ads on the platform the ADL has made a statement that objectively says that there is a huge problem on the platform talking to their agencies and they they're the same people that took out

[13:52] monetization on Twitter they're extremely powerful right and and you can extremely powerful right and and you can go on ad Twitter right like this is all statements that there is something going on no yeah no there that's absolutely

[14:06] something is going on yeah but it's still just something that's the issue that I have with this like when I'm making like plans for income like this okay let's wait for an anomaly let's wait for something to change there's a

[14:19] whipped up into a frenzy over it there's a lot of talk about anything that's were talking about banning Tik Tok right oh man maybe I should stop posting on problem they're have all these Congressional hearings about banning Tik

[14:31] talking about not Banning Tik Tok imagine if I made a business decisions content on Tik Tok that would have damaged my business overall and that's I'm going to operate as normal until we have information that proves otherwise

[14:45] definitively otherwise that I should be making any change in Behavior yet when so we keep going the course we keep expanding and doing the same things that we're doing we keep generating the same amount of AD Revenue that we were before

[14:59] in the same ways that we were before I have no reason to panic because nothing has changed yet and there's no indicator that it absolutely will change just that that it absolutely will change just that it might okay so as a as a as an

[15:14] individual broadcaster making decisions on the future of your brand right um yeah like I I I I understand your logic I completely agree with it um where I guess I I I take greater issue is to make an authoritative subject that not

[15:27] the statement to the to public that nothing is going on right like you start apocalypse right is a is a different analysis that you need to do to to um to to to better plan for your business

[15:41] you're making the right decisions for your business but that that to me your business but that that to me doesn't tell me that you have objective data refuting that there is an ad situation going on oh yeah no the reason

[15:53] apocalypse because an ad apocalypse is actually the ad Revenue driving to the mean we remember what happened on YouTube 2017 right everything went to [ __ ] all the ad Revenue dropped into the floor the ad apocalypse is actually the

[16:06] action occurring could there be an ad apocalypse yes is there one now no and definition of an ad apocalypse is like a 90 to 100% reduction in Revenue even a dude like even that would be enormous and we're not I'm not seeing that no one

[16:22] I know is seeing that outside of people talking about this could occur or people people that are sexual content or people that are streaming less I see where we are going okay I I see the issue okay

[16:35] apocalypse is a 20 to 30% reduction in ad even that is that's pretty wild I haven't seen that even at all we we so we can't so okay so where this will where the rubber meets the road on this is December ad Revenue if you compare

[16:51] your December ad Revenue which which you know is going to be like way higher on normal because of Q4 ad spending than like your December ad Revenue should be less than your December ad Revenue in 2023 2022 and so far it will not reflect

[17:07] in November if brands are pausing now because the ad budget is already spent so that fill rate is already accounted for but in a new month or even a new quarter what my my argument is you should be able to see that decline over

[17:22] quarter 1 of next year especially and to some extent I would think okay cool yeah so so I no i% agree with that and that's that's it's a future projection thing not a definitive this is happening it's a let's wait and see maybe it will let's

[17:35] that I'm I I think that's the big disconnect man is people are like oh no happen no I'm saying the ad apocalypse isn't happening right now there's no the future based on the things you guys are talking about but there's nothing

[17:49] going on right now based on the data if that does happen we can talk about it for is because so many people are now suddenly paying attention to ad Revenue decline in January and February that happens every year that you realize

[18:02] the ad apocalypse has finally occurred I lost 50% of my Revenue yes you do every January that's how it works yeah yeah okay yeah but what you have to do is you average and compare it against the last the for a year and I guarantee you the

[18:16] going to freak out because they're suddenly looking at ad Revenue they go into January and February and just be like that the end is nine yeah the same way that why they were like oh yeah I'm demonetized like two days and actually

[18:28] just twitch doesn't date the date until for a couple of days yeah yeah I I totally agree I I I think the the um it it's hard for me like to convince you that something is happening um I I guess the place where I still have like a

[18:43] continuously saying based on the data but I guess if the data is that there is there isn't an ad apocalypse right that's there's not data yet there's a potential for it but but but that data is not possible to generate we we we

[19:00] that kind of like aound like wait if if you have if you have like the ADL if you saying okay like multiple brands have paed there like is why is that data not valuable to you would you would you say there is an ad apocalypse right now

[19:13] occurring currently what I say that like today streamers are making 20 I'm happening right now is is what specific I just want to be really specific like like is there is there a 20 to 30% reduction because you think you say that

[19:27] an ad apocalypse is 20 30% reduction is there a 20 30% reduction happening right there a 20 30% reduction happening right now on streamers accounts across the

[19:44] think that within a week or two there will be because again you can't if you will be because again you can't if you pause ads um you still have budget and fill rate when that fill rate runs out that will that will be the the problem

[19:56] yes and that is exactly the point I think there will be within 2 to 3 weeks there may be in 2 to 3 weeks I believe there will be in 2 to 3 weeks it's a projection and that is why I say wait on it wait to see the data and for

[20:10] everybody claiming it is here the end is nigh oh my God this is awful everything nigh oh my God this is awful everything is falling apart no it might it might and we don't have the data to prove it because as you said the data doesn't

[20:22] freaking out the sky is falling on something that doesn't exist yet and stating is this fact let me give you an analogy potential okay so if if if a bomb drops Okay and like and like a new Kel City all right okay um the initial

[20:36] explosion is something that like everybody can see happen and the damage is done and then there's a shock wave that goes out from that um huh yeah no you're saying is the explosion cause shock wav happen yeah so the shock so

[20:50] what I'm what I'm saying is like we've clearly seen the explosion and like the shock wave is coming it's not a might thing like that they like the people have paused their ads so that fill rate is going to be reflected in the future

[21:04] it's not a prediction it it just it has happened the bomb dropped the explosion shock wave is just yet to hit us does that make sense I can see what you're saying the bomb drop for that kind of stuff the only thing that I have seen in

[21:16] terms of advertisers pulling out right now is claims from within twitch from unverifiable employees I can't make a business decision based on that if you have other data that that claim backs this up that'd be great because

[21:30] everything that I've said seen so far is from from uh journalism and thing online twitch staff member they declined to have their name on it uh we know that 11 advertisers are pulling out but we don't we can't say who those are and it's like

[21:43] dude what am I supposed to do with that [ __ ] nothing I guess um I in Leu of like verifiable hard numbers that we can't get I guess I put more stock into that type of stuff like when I have been I mean all I can do is give you the same

[21:58] calls with twitch sales I've been on the phone calls with ad buyers who are know one of those Brands is Chase for example like they they've paused their renewing right now they might renew later that's like a might I don't know

[22:13] but like there are there are brands that have paused their ads like like and this sources so you kind of either trust that or not um and as like an ad buyer running ads on Twitch my my job every day is to spend money for for Brands and

[22:29] goes I'm I'm really on the up and up with this conversation so like I either I mean either everybody is telling me wrong stuff um people that personally run those ad budgets a or something is

[22:42] happening right so to be real with you yeah I as I said before as a streamer this if that is happening it will eventually trickle down and come to me and my ad Revenue will reduce it's happen to every other stream can I

[22:56] about through put of it the the problem is as a advocator for to other people would argue you kind of have an obligation to to talk at their level as

[23:08] well so when you say that doing yeah but but but when you say something like there is no ad apocalypse there is no problem on Twitch um that's not an or throughput of your business that's an effect of you as a content creator

[23:23] they're going to make their own decisions based on do you see where said there's no problem on Twitch uh the first thing you said was no it says apocalypse because there isn't one currently I we're splitting hair is

[23:36] right no no no because that's that that's a very important distinction to that is a very important one the reason that I made the statement that I did do lines or try to add extra verbiage to this there is no twitch ad apocalypse

[23:52] currently none of our ad Revenue has changed that is an objective statement something to be misconstrued in another way currently all of our ad revenue is exactly the same and we could see that across this the issue that I've been

[24:06] content creators claiming otherwise claiming that their ad Revenue has single one of those situations they have tags that are incorrect on their on by twitch yes or they have a massive reduction in the amount of hours that

[24:19] in the amount of viewers that they have across the board they have other reasons for dropped ad Revenue this is specifically saying our ad Revenue has not dropped across the board there is no ad apocalypse that's it could there be

[24:34] one in the future sure and when people misconstrue it and take it off into the supposed to do with that well right yeah I state that there isn't one now here's my data it's not happening do you feel like um the intent that people draw from

[24:51] this is is not going to be there is nothing happening income is exactly the same on the entire website there's no issue whatsoever there is right now there's income hasn't changed yet if it changes in the future great man like

[25:05] then we'll know but to claim it's it's cart before the horeshit is what I'm seeing here you're having people claiming this is a definitive fact this revenue is dead oh you better jump off twitch people are claiming like oh man I

[25:17] streaming on YouTube instead like people are immediately trying to be like jump like dude nothing's changed yet nothing has changed when it changes cool should like to be real with you to try and claim that this is already occurred that

[25:32] the sky has already fallen is absurd to me that's okay but but you the reason why a lot of people I think are pushing back against this take and like why I'm pushing back a little bit is because we have seen this concern raised from

[25:45] Brands again with lots of Journalism and again like we already went through all the sources and everything that have said that there is a serious situation that the bomb has been dropped and that people should be aware and maybe should

[25:57] medium-sized content creators whose decision- making is going to be different from yours your income is basically guaranteed uh because of your revenue on Twitch you would be fine on YouTube or somewhere else um but but

[26:10] whose fill rates are going to be affected or things like that I think making a post like this is that they have nothing to worry about and that have from this and the message I'm sending is like hey pay attention twitch

[26:25] is making serious mistakes and you you need to like do things like multistream need to do things like create content other places so that you could so that protected brand does that make sense I think I think what it comes down to is

[26:38] yeah I think you are correct I think you're correct in the statement where diversifying doing that I always tell people exactly the same thing and I saying our ad Revenue has not dropped yet if it does then I'll let you know

[26:52] reason if if you want to know why I put this out um we may have seen different argument today a lot of the things that we've been seeing constantly today is ad Revenue making false claims about the content that they provide making false

[27:07] claims about the viewership that they have all day saying twitch is ripping me off twitch is Dro my ad Revenue everyone should be afraid oh God oh God and then revenue is looking back into theirs and not understanding how it works and

[27:19] that's it's been like that all day it's been an absolute mess and to be real with you having 10,000 people on stream just [ __ ] themselves violently worried entirely about their ad Revenue all day and they the analytics show it's

[27:31] absurd it's insane to watch so I was like okay here's all of my analytics do with it what you will nothing has changed yet what do you want right and off in the future cool then we can go and address that and I think to be

[27:44] honest with you the most likely outcome to me is we'll probably have a little going to be the fallof in January and February and that fall off in January and February is where people are going to say everything was right it was an ad

[27:57] know the history of AD cost yeah they don't know the history of January and February actually falling off every single year because that's normal and I I hate that like that bothers the [ __ ] out of me to see that the general

[28:10] this type of information doesn't have the context for it and is going to be misled in January when this occurs I think I'm annoyed by the exact same thing and that's and that's that like um like multiple people are coming

[28:25] to me and saying like oh hey uh the stock guy showed an image of a tag and apocalypse and oh wait now he showed that the tag is related to this thing the the amount of misinformation is why both of us created posts from different

[28:39] angles yeah we did that's exactly it and like when you look at that the tag thing is is relevant but not relevant to the overall thing it is something that is going on but it's not indicative of an ad apocalypse the problem that I am

[28:51] issue and they're running with it going my ad revenue is dropped by 90% it's the about this all over the Internet and that's not correct so yeah just problem I'm seeing is that people are I guess from the reverse is that people

[29:07] aren't actually taking the issue of like what an ad apocalypse means on a macroscopic level seriously and that that was the purpose of my post was to show that like hey the actual situation of spending ads on Twitch is dog [ __ ]

[29:21] like the four categories that we evaluate to make a decision on if we're going to run ads on the platform or not demographics things like that twitch is failing at all of these if they continue

[29:34] to do this you as a broadcaster and every single broadcaster will see a Revenue because the you probably remember this is that like um you've many years you stream seven years seven years yeah and and I I your YouTube

[29:48] videos go back like like you remember like TW twitch making money off of ads like a relatively new phenomenon it's super new like this only started when that started happening it's only been a couple of years we used

[30:02] to we did it all off of Subs we did it off of all of off of donations we were completely at the whim of PayPal doing charge backs like it suck man and then like suddenly ad revenue is a thing now and now ad ad revenue is 30% of my

[30:14] income and I'm like okay yeah like ad Revenue actually exists now and that's and even then like the feret rescue that we run that's completely run off a ad Revenue it's like 95% off ad Revenue which is wild and yeah diversifying that

[30:26] got other things I'm doing that making YouTube videos for that because that's what you're supposed to do as a streamer anyway yes like you should be diversifying that [ __ ] and there I think this is the the whole thing is literally

[30:38] just could there be an ad apocalypse sure do we seeing the data right now no and if if the data comes through and I'm like hey look the ad Revenue drop great if you we could talk about that right so so so um totally agree on that so like

[30:50] twitch so I guess like where I'm at is that that it is a new phenomenon that you are making money off of ads now on Twitch means that like on YouTube the literally just makes all of their money off of ads like they get paid a CPM deal

[31:05] they get paid out $199 they're like cool that's my money right like and so like ecosystem would be healthy for broadcasters to give them another Diversified method of of of income my my my problem is that like um the decisions

[31:19] that twitch is making and the verifiable my argument is it's verifiable the out of the platform the writing on the wall is showing that twitch's ad platform is not keeping up with ad sensed meta and like to me this is not a

[31:34] prediction this is not a uh this is a objective statement of fact like if I go run $100,000 on meta versus $100,000 on Twitch I will outperform my twitch campaign every single time I promise you this is the truth I promise you right

[31:48] i' mentioned on my tweet there's bad targeting on Twitch there bad demographics um and that sort of thing um so I think that when you can if you tell streamers that like basically there's nothing going on to me I would

[32:02] afraid and look into their options and look into like oh maybe I need to cancel my Twitch account and go to kick I agree those takes are ridiculous but I getting thousands of those messages on your tat every second what I would love

[32:19] to see is people become more aware of the total macroscopic ad situation on for for their business on the basis that it is not keeping up with the digital ad spend across the industry okay now that makes sense so

[32:34] let let's put it at this then would you agree that there is not currently an ad Apocalypse happening on Twitch I again I I would agree with that but I think that I think agree that there's yeah I I would say I would agree that there is a

[32:46] future based on what is occurring outside of that I I would that would be this a little bit differently would you accept that there is a guaranteed drop in ad Revenue in 2 to four weeks at when

[33:01] affil rates end up dropping I think that's pretty soon and the problem is is that's hard to find out if that would correlate with a January drop off so if I look at my ad revenue from January from the year before we've got a 0 511

[33:16] the data that I have there for that BPM that I I calculated out if it's lower than those I think the worst month we've ever had was February 2023 at a 321 the wor one ever if it's lower than that I would agree with it in those months and

[33:32] the data before I can agree to that and I don't have that data there's a potential but there's no data and we can't get the data until we have it does that make sense yep but but you don't agree so the

[33:45] data like What's this called would you agree that um multiple news outlets agree that um multiple news outlets posting that brands are dropping is data of a kind or would you not think that are you only hard I say I I like hard

[33:58] numbers man like really when it comes down to it I I'm I'm absolutely for hard like yes this may occur that goes into my like might bucket right where it's attention to this may occur in the future let's pay attention to that and

[34:11] tons of things like geopolitical stuff that's going on there's tons of things hey maybe ad revenue is going to change changed whatever it's going to be right that's the might bucket the hard data is

[34:24] have the numbers I know exactly what income is it is then we can have that that's the difference between these two things for me got it but we can't get but yours that is for only for me I can't

[34:38] look beyond that I've got two streams worth of data of hard hard numbers where for that that twitch provides for okay but as an ad buyer the only way I can different perspective and different information yes and and so if I'm seen

[34:54] across the board that the vendors who buy ads on Twitch that are spending XYZ budget per month are pulling or pausing Those ads is that worth anything to you I always take those things with a grain of salt because while you see that ad

[35:09] tell or verify the claim it's it's for me it's the trust but verify man like I based on the information that you have but I need to verify that claim and I can't yet because there's no data to do that the only way that you would agree

[35:25] on a twitch uh on a reduction in ad revenue is if you yourself see your ad Revenue reduce it sounds like myself or anyone else that wasn't involved with a reduction in viewership or a reduction in streamed hours or a reduction because

[35:38] this ridiculous tagging system that twitch has just implemented yeah yeah so twitch has just implemented yeah yeah so then there is no way to convince you of this unless we just wait because it's too soon exactly yeah um but but then if

[35:56] why not say it is too soon to tell rather than um there is no ad apocalypse not currently an ad apocalypse and say there's nothing going on I said there's not an ad apocalypse currently there's not an ad apocalypse that's an objective

[36:10] fact like we don't have the data to prove that it is an objective fact but it's it's a uh it's like a little bit of a of a red herring because like you're you see what I mean I that's like the whole issue you could take the

[36:23] that right like that's that's really what it comes down to you have understand I'm I'm very direct in the way that I speak I know people might take implications from things but like there's no way you're how am I supposed

[36:35] an objective information out I say there is no twitch ad apocalypse here is all of my data that's it walk away like and ad apocalypse right now because it's too soon to call yeah yeah and we agree with

[36:48] what I'm saying is that what I'm saying is that like when you post as a content intent and a certain like like your messaging is not just Direct what you say like you have a certain intent to what you're saying right it feels like

[37:01] you're saying pretty objectively that like there is nothing going on and yeah no there's nothing going on right now that I can see the only thing that I can see is that I get my own analytics my own analytics show that nothing has

[37:14] changed I I know you're saying with authority like you're saying stuff like completely based on ads like I know this to be the case people are blowing this these cases provided there's normal behavior misuse targeting it's a lot of

[37:27] on yeah like based on all the information we have that is accurate but you don't but you don't think that like you you you I mean you could have post that says something like like um um I'm aware of the concerns that are going on

[37:41] with like Brand's like allegedly point out of like even that would like sort of site exists right I mean I guess I could put something out like that but to be honest with you like that's that's more of the content that you're putting out I

[37:53] if I know that those brands are allegedly pulling out that's just me going this is allegedly occurring that is not useful you have that information actually doing ad spend I don't have that Insight I have the other side of

[38:07] the Insight which is I have my analytics as a streamer I have a lot of throughput in ads as a streamer and I can show this information and this is all that I have I can't speak with authority outside of that that would be weird right yes but

[38:20] do you feel like um a as a as a content creator you're in a bit of a rock and a creator of your size because what you creator of your size because what you say doesn't just have like even if you

[38:32] like you've put out your own data you put out your own statement and your own everything you say is going to be interpreted and and and driven towards a certain narrative depending on how it

[38:45] like when you say something why I put out objective data and numbers because you for your their narrative or the other side of a narrative they're going to try and take that and I will always just put out data for that instead of

[39:00] dealing with that [ __ ] I know how the internet functions and that you know how use it for their own means their own narrative they're going to twist it in whatever way that they need to in order to prove whatever truth they need to put

[39:12] the numbers on the table walk away with it but you don't feel like the total narrative that you have um done by making a statement like this subjective and this solid is like hey nothing to worry about like like there's nothing

[39:26] that directly but do you don't feel like that narrative was broadcast by this position that you've taken no I don't I don't at all I I feel like I said the it's not happening right here we don't have the data to show it and that's it

[39:40] this is a direct reputation of everybody that was saying oh my God my my ad revenue is dropping like outrageous ridiculous claims all day there's no ad Revenue drop yet it's counting chickens before they hatch could it happen in the

[39:52] based on the information you have sure has it happened yet no has it happened yet no okay um I I would say that like when lot with like content creators and and and like um you are not in this bucket I

[40:07] I I think that originally um when we like when we the Catalyst and Genesis this conversation was me be being frustrated that you're which is like there is a certain level of react broadcasters and uh that like

[40:22] something have an intent on something that is just not informed they're giving a take on something because their business's attention they take on something right and so like when a person makes like an objective

[40:37] statement about something um it drives the audience and it drives viewers in a certain way um I I would like content creators especially of your the industry to be careful about doing that be because um the downstream effect

[40:54] take is like you have amount of influence over other people if people Twitch and do nothing else with the rest I've been saying to be honest with you okay every single time that I ever talk

[41:09] releasing things on YouTube you should be making shorts on YouTube you should be putting stuff hell even on Facebook you should be putting on Instagram you else and if if somebody sees this and goes wow there's no twitch ad apocalypse

[41:23] all of my things into twitch and only there nowhere else that's not my fault that's on them like that's that's ridiculous at that breadth of your content is accurately just uh like done the rest of the work

[41:37] your content I agree with that yeah yeah yeah I I think that really what it comes and they'll react to it in a really bombastic way yeah and they'll they'll towards a specific narrative whatever whether that's Pro or con against twitch

[41:51] they'll try to turn it into um you know their hatred of Hassan which is talking what's going going on with the other side of that argument or trying to say person's disparaged and really what it comes down to is the data provided to a

[42:05] streamer that shows our ad revenue does not show a significant decrease in fact it shows a normal increase for fourth quarter just like it does every year okay that's it yeah yeah like I I I think we I think our both of our views

[42:19] are actually compatible in a funny way because like you are objectively correct that nothing categorically has happened yet right and and and I think that I am also correct in that I have seen a lot

[42:32] people that I'm talking to and everything and like I'm I I I do respect does I think that he's a good journalist and like that I think he puts a lot of believe he talked those Brands um I I have also had secondary confirmation

[42:46] from those Brands um and and those Spenders and have heard that this is a problem so like I guess it's just two sides of the coin at the end of the day yeah yeah what I want what I want from this is to put out objective data just

[42:58] objective data and stay away from the absolute insane culture war that has spiraled out of this what do you mean by sh oh no people are talking about it Twitch there's people talking about like Ohan said these things or asmin gold is

[43:11] about any of that I care about the objective data that we have with this with that I don't talk about politics I never do yeah I hate that [ __ ] to be honest with you it's not positive in any way it

[43:24] this case I I don't want to give my take on it splits your audience none of this is positive right that's not what I do on my broadcast so with that I go here's the numbers that I have this is the only thing that we have with the numbers you

[43:37] ideological battle on that the other side that's not about me I don't care about that do do you okay I'm not I promise you I'm not digging you into a objective right is because I'm also the same as you I don't go right or left

[43:50] nobody here knows my political affiliation I don't I I to we are so aligned on this [ __ ] man they don't know mine either yeah we we're so line of the [ __ ] so one thing that I do think is our concern as broadcasters and as people in

[44:03] this industry is that if there is Extreme it doesn't matter if it's right or left it does like let's get throw out all that [ __ ] Hassan whoever Destiny don't care but like it like if that content that polarizing content that

[44:15] content that polarizing content that advertisers are dropping their their are words so say pausing ads over um if that exists on the website do you think that it is worthwhile to have a discussion on whether that stuff could be here or not

[44:28] like macroscopically not right I if you're if you're my take on that I wish politics wasn't on this platform I do too I I [ __ ] for that yeah so dud I I wish I wish politics and and sexual content of any kind wasn't on this

[44:40] because it scares away as we talk about advertisers in general I think that it overall I think it's polarizing for the platform it hurts the brand of twitch that off the plat I've been talking about that for years of like I really

[44:54] content on my stream I've always talked about that being the case all of that is creator on here and if you are correct in your statement where you're saying of advertisement and it's going to create an ad apocalypse then it will be

[45:09] because of that content scaring away those content 100% the issue exact same where we're split on it which is objectively I cannot prove that that is wanted to make sure that you were on the same page with that issue and I think

[45:23] fist on the on the last tweet that I made which was was was was asking to B all that type of content's that I would love for that platform it's bad for everyone involved and to be honest with you we actually

[45:36] when they come in and make political statements all the time people that come in and try to say like oh vote for Trump or vote for for you know comma both of literally get rid of all of it because I'm like I don't want any soap boxes in

[45:50] because it's not for that it's for an environment where people can be creative were born I don't care about how you feel about what war none of that [ __ ] content is about it's about creating things completely agree so I I think

[46:05] that the the the purpose of the discussion about the anti-Semitism and like the extreme content or whatever it is on Twitch is to feel this issue ultimately of whether that stuff should be on the platform or not and that's why

[46:17] I think it's actually a pretty important discussion to field um like I I I don't I think I'm on the exact same page with you of like I don't like the sides want it all gone right because I missed [ __ ] video games dude I missed I I

[46:30] missed like like to me yeah I've talked about like you know you both both I of Legends streamer competitive dancing streamer okay like I I totally get it like like like the type of content that I miss on this website is like authentic

[46:43] creation and stuff like that I watch your stuff all the time it's [ __ ] great so like like like that's the kind of stuff that I miss and I also like had a dream for this website of the kind of kaai sonat style of broadcasting where

[46:55] you're pushing live content forward by doing really cool [ __ ] that can only be not making it political or weird or awkward or whatever so so I actually I though I don't like all of his content all the time I love what he's doing for

[47:08] traditional celebrities into a space that generally doesn't have those like that's a really big deal for the whole platform as a whole and it's really value of the [ __ ] that he does is insan charts it's wild dude like you've got

[47:22] this dude all the time you're like how the hell like that's insane [ __ ] to content forward in a way that we haven't seen since like germa or like like like doing those really high production like content even they couldn't do it as

[47:36] consistently as like the mafia F or things like that so so like when I see yeah so like when I see that vision for twitch I have a dream of like what the website could be and I think you and I both probably share equal passion and

[47:48] like we both want this web to to succeed like a lot of people they they think I'm want twitch to burn dead of the ground like dude like my entire life is that's how riot games found me and that's how I owned an orts team like all

[48:01] originally on Twitch so like I don't want this website to go anywhere but I'm these problems of this high level polarizing content at the top of the discovery feed um and like then we are really going downhill as a website and

[48:16] needs to be brought up and constantly brought up to sea levels at twitch to like I don't see how twitch doesn't see this as a huge problem do you think that try and go and rally a whole bunch of people to harass advertisers do you

[48:31] think it's a really good way to do that by harassing people like Mike Minton until he privates his Twitter account of course I don't think that's being handled well dude like I don't I don't think the initiative to try and fix the

[48:44] being handled in a way that is effective or good and I think that right now if just going to have a whole lot of other people that are hurting the crossfire instead of fixing the actual issue but what opt do you have if you have tried

[48:58] to talk at the level like like like many of us have been at the at a sea level I these guys you've got a user funny enough people don't realize the that is one of the best ways to get in touch

[49:12] with twitch on ironically like like yeah it's a lot of them there the devs like actually read it yeah and so like I think that what has happened is that a lot of people have failed those methods of communication and now there was so

[49:24] when when this original thing stopped started the take that I had was look we an appropriate thing to do actually like like I I think using the word like like emailing advertisers and being like hey I've got concerns over like what's

[49:37] fine don't attack Dan don't attack Dan individuals right because I think that lowers your argum it plays out that's that's not how it plays out yes there are going to be some sane individuals

[49:50] the internet dude I've been told to kill myself like a hundred times today alone that's what it's like being positions you know that [ __ ] so the some kind of an initiative and a feeling that they are a part of something

[50:03] deep end with that some people do the grand majority of people either stay send the nice thing so yeah you're going to get crazy amounts of harassment from think that there might be better ways to handle this I do think that twitch needs

[50:18] twitch has ever going to remove all political content from the platform I categories and then a lot of this problem goes way it's really what it was they put it into this tagging system the tagging system is dog man B A that's

[50:33] caught a lot of people with in Splash damage in the crossfire it makes no categories make a politics category push everyone to that category and then demonetize the category for ad Revenue a lot of this problem would go away but

[50:45] either everybody just eventually Mills back out to just chatting and they have to put them to these content classification systems that doesn't work and I've always thought that but they keep building system on system on system

[50:58] to solve a problem that is just pushed them into the right category if you tagging for you know to try and do ad revenue for that you've just made another problem in a weird way in fact the scariest problem from this is the

[51:10] tagging demonetization system can now be weaponized against twitch and it already want some crazy sure okay if you want to pause ads put Iran in your in your exactly what I was saying yes how it's being weaponized

[51:25] talking you could literally put politics or election or or any of that kind of stuff in your tags and you don't get ads on your amazing yeah it's freaking insane like dude I was sitting there I was watching the the time is a flat

[51:37] made me laugh my ass off which like asmin Gold's on Twitch he's not running channel asmin Gold's doing politics politics are rooing twitch advertisers going to make him have a Content classification and I have ads anymore

[51:52] wait it's like God damn it dude and then then they introd to this tagging system and I'm like dude if you do that the first thing that people are going to do is ADS make it so that I don't get new viewers I'm not going to have ads

[52:05] anymore tag just politics and it's like how did you how did you not understand was going to occur like that's a player Behavior failure on Twitch so my take on Behavior failure on Twitch so my take on that is is this okay like I feel like

[52:19] that was the only option they had because I was I when YouTube was apocalypse you mentioned the ad apocalypse 2017 I've covered that a lot too recently and what happened in in 2017 YouTube said okay we can go two

[52:33] directions with this either we are like literally going to have to rethink the website or we are going to have to build a sophisticated machine Learning System that actually identifies what content is

[52:45] classified as uh bad behavior and we have to combine that with a self-rated system that YouTube currently uses to to where where users flag their content and then a combination of automatic and manual labor is done to verify if that

[52:59] content is over politicized or extreme or sexual or whatever and YouTube spent billions of dollars and two years of getting demonetized people getting kicked off the platform people getting

[53:13] banned twitch has not done that work they should have done that work in 2015 they should have done it years ago I agree with that and YouTube YouTube has randomly like even even when my channel popped off in November of last year um

[53:26] we actually got like flagged as being um on YouTube and my viewership dropped into the floor it actually became the top post on YouTube subreddit of like why am I not seeing pirat software stuff

[53:39] it and showed that I had basically lost 99% of my new viewership anytime that we that so even YouTube still screws this [ __ ] up sometimes even with the massive they fixed it they actually fixed it for everyone when we showed that so you so

[53:55] did you see that twitchcon announcement where Dan was standing on stage and he in seven years no I didn't see that that's that's a direct clip I have it's one of my shorts like it's up there okay like like

[54:08] I'm not paraphrasing he said we haven't updated our twitch mobile app in seven statement like that and I look at the competency of the organization overall I'm like how the [ __ ] can these guys possibly build a multi-billion dollar

[54:21] system on the basis of this and so they're forced to do these content classific Labs because they have no other vertical to be able to improve it think the problem is is they don't have a way of of doing proper categorization

[54:35] way of doing proper categorization they just don't enforce it we've known that this issue where they have a whole bunch of content that they're not able to Wrangle and they're trying to prove to advertisers that they need to be able to

[54:47] makes sense where advertisers are not advertising on a channel that has some type of extreme take and I I don't think they have a good system in place I think think there is a lot of potential for bad there you know there's a lot of

[55:01] potential for harm the point that I will always make is there is a potential for this let's wait and see and i' I've done that take many many many dozens of times over the years it's the same one that I already have which is this looks like it

[55:14] could happen let's wait and see and when people jump the gun and they go this has happened I go there's no day to prove that this has happened this is occurring you're jumping the gun wait for it m and

[55:26] it being a potential but don't talk about it being a fact that's the difference got it okay like like I I I think we've we've come to the same place on that subject um can I get you back on the like what is your like like what is

[55:41] future projection stuff or you just like straight up like now is the time oh no I do future projection [ __ ] all the time I go down a bunch of roads of like what if plan for this let's do that and that really it always comes down to the same

[55:55] it's diversification put your stuff on more platforms like I'll be real with you we we used gilded do you know what gilded is yes yeah yeah so we used what if Discord dies right we tried to put a bunch of stuff in gilded and then

[56:08] gilding [ __ ] it'ss like gild got bought by Roblox and it just imploded and I was to they got bought by Roblox and then suddenly a ton of like random kids would flood in and just and be like Dead channel Dead channel Dead channel when

[56:21] I was like oh God it's the worst of Tik Tok I've ever seen in my life like they owned by Roblox now and we went just back to Discord and we don't really use down there's not really an alternative for Discord I think that's the only

[56:34] thing that I have right now where I'm like we don't have a way out there every we'll have YouTube yeah it won't be as good they don't have as good of a live streaming experience it's not as great for viewers like that sucks but it does

[56:46] like I don't know Tik Tok we're still going to have YouTube shorts there's so that you can pull in the total social media landscape right now yeah but if twitch dies I'm not only on Twitch and no one should be only on Twitch nobody

[57:01] should be only on one platform I'm so glad that they removed the requirement because allowed everything that we're doing now I was pushing for for I was in so many conversations for so many years about that with at every level man I I I

[57:16] I know that they did that because it was a gun to the Head type of thing like ultimately with that with when when paid contracts ran out they it's still they eventually would have been challenged like at a court level I don't think you

[57:30] can do that cuz you're not W2 these employees right like um but them removing that was a huge W for the whole platform so that people could diversify of broadcasters who say multi streaming is terrible that there's no data to

[57:44] thing and like and and um and I'm not going to like name names while talking problem like I I get a lot of people that don't understand like I have I have so much objective data on Multi stre

[57:56] thousands of creators at my agency um people to come over from YouTube to our primary Channel Reon they go to Twitch is because the viewership experience is better on Twitch sure they want to use

[58:10] like live stream at YouTube like doesn't have the capability to do yeah I I think for YouTube the only reason why a lot of people stay there and my viewers talk to me about this all the time is the fact that you can rewind on a playback is so

[58:22] good if twitch implemented that they would cannibalize the [ __ ] out of I I don't know what it's a teex it's a tech stack issue I know it's a tech thing I know but it's just like that so many research should people put that the

[58:34] CDN wasn't like built on the back of like rewinding so you have to kind of and like some of the most amazing Engineers that have been at twitch um that like were at twitch that kind of like found and EMT himself actually the

[58:48] CDN system are not there anymore so you have a kind of Warhammer 40K thing going even know how to use this Tech yeah yeah it's it's like we don't even end of it's like e on line right it's like it's all spaghetti after a while

[59:02] something but we broke all of NC I know you're an eve fishing Auto as I am so it's like so it's like the blackout type situation you know there's there's that on Twitch like a a really weird one in terms of monetization actually is

[59:16] nobody seems to understand what happens if you have a person that has twitch channel we don't know if that guy generates ad Revenue because twitch turbo you generate twitch Turbo but you don't generate ad revenue and

[59:30] asked Mike we've asked all kinds of people and everyone's like I don't know conflicting information their old affiliate Wiki would say that you would receive revenue from this and then the twitch turbo Wiki would say you wouldn't

[59:43] actually knows there's tons of [ __ ] like that at twitch yeah there's a bigger advertising fraud that one of the reasons why we earlier before all this pull an ad budget from twitch to move over to like YouTube and meta in like

[59:59] 2022 is like um and like one of the big reasons was because I actually can't verify if my ads are shown there's two listed which is like if a person is a subscriber to Pirate software do they

[1:00:14] actually does the ad actually get it count as an impression for an Advertiser and I I I so the answer this for me is conflicting I I I think dude if the answer to that is yes that's awful it's awful leg but that's I I have more data

[1:00:27] supporting that than I do not but but it doesn't I'm not definitive like like second problem is imeds which which which I know for a fact do show ads so you're aware of this right like you put a pixel on your website [ __ ] that does

[1:00:42] gets served to a viewer but it charges the brand I I actually I'm that one is more concerning to me I think than anything else right now because you can people will stop single Pixel those things and twitch has very clear

[1:00:57] supposed to be because I have embeds on my website but it's a large player based diens you're supposed to do yeah they have a guideline for your for your ined API of like what the the guideline is supposed to be for the size of that and

[1:01:12] literally abusing it yeah they're abusing it it's completely against toos to do that like let me go pull this up actually I believe you like 100% like I stream on the API like you have so that that's that's really interesting it's

[1:01:25] pop it on there and it's done but they they have they have spe it's called embed everything and they'll say exactly the sizes for this the dimensions for it the API docs for you so you can go and read through this kind of stuff and just

[1:01:38] talk about specifically in here like what sizes are you supposed to have how do you like what do you do in terms of like how do you get it to display on the page everything like all that normal stuff and there are so many people that

[1:01:50] will display these things at a size that is not allowable by twitch and like I advertisers too because like if I have a person that's like hey I want to run you Mill of ads and I want to see if this works and it's like okay well 20% of

[1:02:04] the Impressions weren't real it's like well what am I going to tell my brand yep and the problem with that it's like okay in a vacuum where like twitch is space that's fine like okay like you can probably get away with like little

[1:02:17] with the like 30 billion in Revenue a that is AdSense targeting how effective it is and how amazing is it's really ads and like I guess like the whole Genesis of my post was it's funny we

[1:02:32] kind of uh came to the same conclusion because I also want the attention to be it's like I don't think they're individual streamers that are causing currently brands have paused their ads but overall the problem is just a shitty

[1:02:46] ad system like like overall the issue is that they just haven't kept up with the going to hurt in the long run and we should be aware of that oh definitely no I agree with on that I think I think that it is it is potentially dangerous I

[1:02:59] ad system that doesn't deliver ads in a way that makes sense I think that make it so that advertisers are a little bit more protected by doing this tag thing which has caused Splash damage in classic twitch fashion they've actually

[1:03:11] doing that and it's it's hurt a lot of people's ad Revenue by doing that and I think that right now I'm just looking at the data that I have that proves we potential for that wave it's the same thing over and over yeah man I'm sorry

[1:03:27] to have pulled you out of any uh work you're doing or SL factory factory you're building in start satisfactory no no I did I did my 12 like I don't have to sleep for another two hours so yeah you're is that do you

[1:03:41] only sleep like four or five hours a day five yeah about five hours a day I wake up at about 11: p.m. and I get on stream about an hour later are you one of those people that can do um like just has a genetic predisposition towards

[1:03:53] very small yeah I can't do more than five hours I actually get pissed when I sleep more than five hours the only time I do is what if I'm like badly sick like if I get sick and like my body's just like

[1:04:06] nope you're staying there and like that's it you know I wish that the first time we connected was more over like I have so many questions to ask you about the things I don't know if you've ever seen like I did like deep Dives with

[1:04:19] talk to Moon Moon I talked to like Quinn and like all kinds of people about like um just like how they got to their success as a broadcaster I would still at some point yeah know like let's set that up for sure [ __ ] it's funny because

[1:04:32] someone in chat's like five hours this dude's dying at 40 I'm 37 and I'm doing there's a small group of people that just have a genetic precursor to a Peter AA talks about this and outlive like there's a small group of people who are

[1:04:45] they lit like everyone thinks they're this person is the thing and so they do dementia and [ __ ] like that um yeah but but there are the people who they are they like Thor where it's like they're like I get pissed and I literally

[1:04:59] physically am uncomfortable if I sleep more than 5 hours yeah I go more than 5 hours I I wake up angry like it ruins the day you know and it's it's one of even set alarms I don't do any of that kind of stuff and I will just pop out

[1:05:11] and that's it and there's nothing I can do about it yeah man that's used to be a problem when I was a kid when I was like like 13 going to school and [ __ ] because night in the middle of the dark cuz your parents like go to bed I'm like well

[1:05:24] games cuz like I can't I can't go to sleep again like it's over right that's it so it's just been like that my whole life man ah I'm jealous man I would get like I I you know I have a I have a theory that a lot of the like really

[1:05:37] of have that Gene because they're just able to put so much more time into like eight or nine hours and like you're getting ready for bed and stuff like that like [ __ ] half your day like I sleep like eight if I I feel great on

[1:05:49] eight hours like that's my today and and and if I get less than that like I feel steadily more shitty over time it's if you're wondering why I blocked Dan on Twitter there's a good example of it there in your chat oh I I'm not reading

[1:06:01] chat I I just like I'm trying to engage with you um Dan and I have known a yeah I like I don't yeah okay I don't think that that's appropriate and and I know Dan very well I Dan and I I I think are are friends I I and uh that what I tell

[1:06:19] Dan so look I think Dan overall what he is doing I understand why he's doing it I think that he is on a on a crusade to get twitch to wake up to a lot of the real problems that they have and I

[1:06:31] support that I I do wish he was not doing it with so many ad homonyms and I have told him that myself yeah yeah I like the way he's going about it I that's that it's that one aspect of it that I disagree with

[1:06:44] man and very capable as it turns out I would never want to piss him off no it makes sense I mean be emotional and passionate but be human yeah um yeah same page man like like I I um

[1:07:00] saying this like to say it I told you it privately I've said it publicly multiple respect for you as a content creator and as a person I think you're one of the good ones like I think that you're you're doing the work on the platform to

[1:07:12] put out good [ __ ] into the world and I I wish there were more of you I I hope that you um I hope that I didn't make you feel like you have to come on here and defend yourself or anything like that but it's a huge W that you to quote

[1:07:24] to talk about this issue and that we could like we could we could uh we could this yeah that kind of thing yeah no I'll always always be down to talk man I've been watching your stuff for a long time too so like [ __ ] Ki keep kicking

[1:07:37] ass yeah thank you back at you man like no matter what people say about you like obviously the huge number of percentage of people are positive that's like one going to be people that hate you and and it's like it's well there are a small

[1:07:50] like really loving your stuff and like the what you put out I'm actually going to put a statement on the end of this because I think I think you you have brought together a really interesting point which is there are

[1:08:03] that you have and see that you have the adill and see that there's a potential that that is already happened and they're going to see people that see my wait a minute there is nothing going on there will never be anything going on

[1:08:17] currently there is nothing happening but there is a potential for harm so I'm going to put that on the end of this thread good sh yeah thank you yeah I um this twitch chat is an example of how to have a good natured discussion with two

[1:08:32] very rare what you're witnessing what what what just happened today is is a huge [ __ ] W that is an extremely rare instance of this occurring yeah dude dude I I knew that if I talk to you like we would we would

[1:08:45] um yeah like because you're you're such a cool dude and like you you can see things like objectively and like you try it's funny that like I would ask you so you don't have like a Zen background or something like that because that that's

[1:08:58] been like a really devout Zen Buddhist and like trying to eliminate all the dog that said that but I don't well first principles thinking right like like that to stay in this Lane I'm going to remove everything I possibly can from the sze

[1:09:12] and just try to get to the issue like like like I really respect you because you're one of the very few people that can do that well thank you yeah yeah I'm stream about the entire thing and we found an interesting middle ground as

[1:09:25] creators we cannot see any damage being done yet as per the data I presented above as someone who works and I'm going to write the rest of this so someone who works uh directly with advertisers because that's on

[1:09:38] because that's on yours sense and this is why I wanted to come on because I'm like okay there's a lot both sides there's a lot of people going to be believing all these things

[1:09:51] makes way more sense now and I think people have yeah like I I think everybody is better for us talking and I I'll also put this up on YouTube and I'll also amend my statement and and and make a and say something similar like

[1:10:04] some some on the lines of like um I I I don't want people to freak out now but I term that like there there's potential for this make decision diversify that kind of thing yeah and then overall had a really good conversation with you yeah

[1:10:16] good [ __ ] man okay I'm gonna before I put this out I want I want you to get who works directly with advertisers Deon Ash can see there's a high chance of damage going forward based on current trends is that accurate yes okay so I

[1:10:30] the entire thing and we found an interesting middle ground as content done yet as per the data I representative above as someone who Ash can see there is a high chance of damage going forward based on current

[1:10:42] trends both things are true always diversify your content yeah I'll have a similar I'll have a similar type of message I'll just um you you I'll just I'm not too worried it's not going to be like too uh too like controversial I'm

[1:10:56] for posting that man I really appreciate that absolutely come and talk about it this stuff because I don't think I don't think anyone's being malicious about I do think there's people that are like being really twisty malicious about it

[1:11:10] on the internet but that's the internet there the unfortunate thing is that one like so many people are incentivized to give like the most extreme take on this that's like part one and like part two is that I think there are a good percent

[1:11:25] of legitimate grifters like people whose entire modus operi is simply to just stir [ __ ] up so many people I saw today were like posting like my ad revenue is dropped and they like actually had inspect elemented the freaking number

[1:11:38] that the number is wrong because they forgot to change that one I'm like you idiots like it's so insane dude that's like intentional grifting when I first made my tweet about um kind of the twitch situation like a like a few weeks

[1:11:50] come on and just be like like you're wrong on this or like well just move to over I'm like dude like nobody cares about kick like what are you talking it's like 4% of the to like always I'm always Blown Away by the kick narrative

[1:12:03] man because like kick doesn't even had have ad Revenue kick doesn't have any like equivalent to bits and like those are my primary drivers on stream yeah like it's not it's not Subs man like if I moved to kick I would lose so much

[1:12:16] wouldn't make any I've tried to run ads on Twitch or on Kick sorry and I and I I I tried to talk to the kick guys about it I'm like I want to give you money on there that like are like you can there are plenty of brands that want to

[1:12:29] broadcasters right like like that's the thing and and and we have a couple of at the agency and I was like I want to advertise on your platform like I will right now lots of it like hundreds of thousands of dollars how do I do it and

[1:12:41] that that's like there's a physical system I can't even like man like manually like twitch has been white glove for um I even presently Tils TW sales to run ads there's no automated system like AdSense or meta you have to

[1:12:55] do the buy and you have to run the ad yeah they don't have an automated system for that but they do for drops really yes drops are yeah drops are what yeah yes drops are yeah drops are what yeah why is that manual so so Amazon built

[1:13:07] a guy named Ethan Evans built that system the drop system um he's the same did Prime subs and like gifted Subs like super awesome guy at Amazon he's he's retired and now it's Steve that runs it but um but like that that guy was like

[1:13:20] like one of my really great friends in Seattle for years and he um and and so the drop system was built totally independently and the ad system is still you do you know what the ad Buy in is to to get an ad done on Twitch just to run

[1:13:34] you uh because I'm under n but I'm gonna send you it on on uh that's the number I send you it on on uh that's the number I love friend yeah it's it's a it's a friend dude what it's that high yeah so so like so like so and like this is like

[1:13:50] question actually do you think they keep the manual process because it allows to command a higher premium because it seems premium I think that's part of it and I think that's why when twitch talks to me about running ads let me tell you

[1:14:06] what the CPM is that they again another thing that I'm like that's the number that they're trying to sell me at and that's that's that's that's what I've bought ads at like if I'm doing um video ads and I'm doing like uh uh like ads

[1:14:20] that lay over your stream right that's the number um that's very high if you look at that number yeah really high if you look at that in comparison so I do think YouTu not even close to YouTube dude like gaming cpms are like three to

[1:14:33] six dollars that's nothing so that's the thing that I've been wondering about too like the feret rescue stream makes a ton of money that supports all of the rescue activ is it because it's 247 it's 247 and it's also got a large amount of

[1:14:47] viewership we're sitting about like 1,300 to at 2,000 viewers 247 you're also when I talked to Mike Minon about it before the advertising the category very advertising friendly like very

[1:15:00] of advertisers they're willing to put stuff in that category and it just makes sense but I always thought I was like that is a lot of AD revenue for what's any sense so like no that that puts it a

[1:15:13] didn't have that piece of data what's happening is I think that twitch is selling itself as kind of like an exclus so here's the the number one metric they you can look at cross you can go to soome and look at this um is the amount

[1:15:28] of time that a user spends on the website is between 15 to 120 minutes per day so that number equips I think YouTube actually finally came pretty gone up a lot but um no platform for many years uh ever eclips that number so

[1:15:44] they they send you that number and they tell you look like you pay these cpms they're going to buy your thing because they're going to see your ad over and impr is going to like that's the I'm literally talking about the sales

[1:15:59] process because this has been pitched to me like so many times right on calls and so um I think that one of the reasons they're not doing an auction system like meta or ad literally any other platform to be right is because they're

[1:16:13] trying to keep those exclusive cpms the problem is that they've run a lot of you once once youve like there's not that many people doing like um I don't know like million doll buys per year right like like it's not a high number

[1:16:27] right like my my market the list of potential clients Legend maybe the list of potential clients for me as an agency right the people that I actually make in the US or like a like a little bit less than that because it's all VPS of

[1:16:41] decisions on ad budget so like at some point Brands start to go okay well we've run that budget at that CPM and we're not competing like like we ran an equivalent Budget on YouTube at like a $12 $15 C and and we got verifiable

[1:16:56] targeting data pixel tracking data none of the like so like why are we continue that's like a big overall problem that twitch is dealing with right now that I biggest thing there is I'm I'm waiting to see how that kind of plays out for

[1:17:10] twitch because I I didn't know that their entire ad system was manual dude that's wild I think I think that's probably one of the most wild things and that to an automated process if it would lose some of its Prestige and they would

[1:17:23] lose ad spend overall you know they get a lot of smaller players but the bigger automated now you know and then we can just make a bunch of tests and they do smaller tests instead of these big white glove you know individual things be like

[1:17:35] this is the minimum buy in right yes I I read you a a read you a a story uh that that's a real brand that had that budget to spend on on Twitch and they physically could not get in

[1:17:48] contact with ad sales they would not return emails I had to manually connect them with a dude that's rough dude that's like the amount of money that twitch has potentially lost just off of a manual

[1:18:02] platform is like actually nuts that they've never built the auction system and dude think about how much more money would make think much more than you if I could run $500 of ads on Twitch like like as as an experimental

[1:18:16] yeah just do it I could log into twitch. ads.com and I could run $500 of ads like available in fill rates to like you'd be crazy like it would be crazy how much yeah there's a reason why like eight ads of the same ad get shown on Twitch like

[1:18:30] this is the reason you're seen the the numbers on the back end yeah I think the it kind of puts in perspective some of the weird ad Behavior we've seen on when Burger King was putting out like $5 to advertise on a streamer's channel

[1:18:44] [ __ ] like years ago I'm like okay now it makes sense I did a YouTube video on this yeah so gross the behavior was awful but like now I guess it makes a it's that difficult to put an ad on the platform if there's that much buying to

[1:18:58] and it's a totally manual process like Jesus Christ yeah and it's like I've begged them to do this is like just let us run like there are so many brands that I have worked with over the years that would be like yeah put $10,000 on

[1:19:11] on on Twitch and figure out what happens and because we can't do that like like the what people don't understand about like advertising is like you never start budget if you don't know what's going to happen right like you you start with an

[1:19:23] experimental budget you're going to run like um $10,000 or like like even our that like I'm doing a lot of stuff last night I was running um stuff for like a users like the people we were sponsoring

[1:19:36] like thousand or west like just like cpms like5 $20 cpms on YouTube yeah so so like it's mass throughput mass through more it's not even it's not even just that it's stable because you have more more advertisement Revenue over

[1:19:49] there but it's more stable and you don't have these massive spikes and it makes me like you you saw the data they put out that show like October was quite low where it's like March is really really high I'm wondering if those types of

[1:20:03] behavior which is like oh we just got like a big Advertiser in this month instead of it being kind of flattened over time that's why yeah is because a a significant Advertiser will actually come in and uh if they do put like an a

[1:20:17] like it'll be a huge difference in Revenue in streaming for because I think twitch just isn't actually that large like like there's 200 there's 200 users on YouTube for everyone on Twitch yeah it's insane and I I think I realized

[1:20:31] because it was like it was like turning on a fire hose man like it's it's crazy two and a half Mill it's like two and a half million subscribers on YouTube and two and a half million followers is like a massive deal on Twitch oh dude it's

[1:20:48] insane tens of thousands of people like that on YouTube you know it's like it's very different like a like a um if you look at like the ccvs of even like a 10,000 viewer twitch Channel and you compare it to a million true views on a

[1:21:01] people don't understand and and the way that twitch shows the number of ccvs is static thing but it's not a static thing it's actually churn right like your that that that's I you've probably experienced this as a broadcaster where

[1:21:15] question and then some [ __ ] guy comes in and ask the same question two seconds later right constantly yeah that's happening and you're you're very good creation stuff you are a master at just literally being like Oh yeah man here's

[1:21:30] I've never once seen you get frustrated answering the same question like eight times like it's amazing but that happens because of the churn yeah the way that I get that and the the larger the stream is the more common that becomes right

[1:21:43] and it's there are only time the only times I get frustrated with it was it if I end like a topic like I'm in the middle of a topic and the person asks a question in the middle of the topic that I literally like I know they were in the

[1:21:55] answer yes and they still typed it I'm like I know you were here like I you had to be you know times I was like I'm not doing that again and people will be like oh he's saying the same stuff and I was like

[1:22:08] what you want yeah so that that viewer turn is constant but when you compare it to like a million consistent views on on a video on YouTube like that or or like that get to like a billion views like freaking gun them style and stuff like

[1:22:22] totality of viewers minutes on Twitch doesn't equal one of those videos right like it's just it's just such a difference and when you um the burritos per minute that I now understand that you've explained it right the a big

[1:22:34] variation like you have a really weird data set point in 2024 of March likely sure right because I'm I haven't like looked at it but like um likely what happened there is that either a brand deal got served or a series of brand

[1:22:47] deals got served like if um if a group like um one thing that there's a big there's basically six big agencies that control everything it's like I ipg Wikipedia it's called the big six it's similar to the to the big four that run

[1:23:01] all Financial stuff right so this up actually while you're talk yeah look up the big six on Wikipedia uh big six advertising agencies um big six advertising a oh I found them yeah yeah yeah so so basically all decisions on

[1:23:15] yeah so so basically all decisions on um are made by these guys wpp omnicron ipg and so uh what happens is let's say ipg comes to Twitch and says yeah we're run experimental budget we've got these guys have like 500 $600 million a year

[1:23:27] right so if they if they if the eye of Sauron even turns for a second towards platform then like the entirety of twitch can change overnight and then and something like that happened there because normally you wouldn't see that

[1:23:41] kind of like driver in March but likewise why you such a decline in like those advertisers pauses for some reason or if they do like which is why it's like ipg that's currently running Budget on Twitch on behalf of like 12 or 15

[1:23:55] agency my agency runs about $17 million of ads per per year like so that's like and across all brands like these guys are running like 500 to 600 million so ad budget and like you know like a platform's like oh no you know but like

[1:24:09] if ipg comes to you and tells you to play they pull your ad budget that is a all hands on deck Defcon one more sense I didn't know about the Illuminati of AD delivery but here we

[1:24:21] have it this is this is some actually wild stuff so those are those are pretty if they're doing that that's a very very big deal and that's likely why you'll see drivers for change on Twitch then makes sense yes sir yeah yeah exactly

[1:24:34] and that is probably why you've seen such drastic variations in this data fluctuations of things like because twitch has not had it twitch has has controversies and there have there have been other advertising kind of strikes

[1:24:48] significant as this one that looks like is brewing um but there have been pretty remember some of them there was the hot tub thing where a bunch of advertisers like like remember that where like and they made the hot tub category yeah the

[1:25:04] for eight months to get a Sofer and game development category made and they made Hot Tubs on the they're like oh [ __ ] hot tub we got to make a hot tub category guess I'm G to go make games in a hot tub you know and then yeah there's been

[1:25:17] red phone rings where like another one was when like they I can't I still can't when they decided to to allow hentai on the website for a few days oh no do you category no I I remember this I remember this yeah

[1:25:33] allowing certain types of content and the content turned out to be hentai and my God they updated their terms of service and they said hey it's okay if you can draw nudity and like sexually themed content as long as it's in the

[1:25:47] constraints of your art and of course streamers took that to the highest level you possibly can and we get big throbby like a nightmare yeah dude the the top channel I saw was actually a person who had four other people's streams running

[1:26:01] of of porn being drawn and they were just farming it and they had like 60,000 viewers I remember this I was like what are you doing like this is no dude streamers that started streaming like tons of um so there's been like Contra

[1:26:15] like the artifact one is the artifact one's still going on you still see that they're where they're streaming copyrighted content I've reported a number of those channels dude still doing it yeah oh no you'll also see um

[1:26:27] stream all the Simpsons episodes in there illegally like it's totally the same thing yeah yeah any find that and they go through and they sweep them out in categories that are like Associated you know like they're close to you know

[1:26:40] thing that happened during the artifact craze was there was a bot that was repeatedly just creating new channels because twitch had to shut down its uh its signup service they they they couldn't sign up new users for like two

[1:26:54] days days because the the guy would just go create another account start up a had to put in some capture or something to like protect that yeah it was a nightmare yeah if you if you look at that category right now it is half

[1:27:07] sexual themed content all of its copyr videos and there's one guy streaming actual artifact gamer and he has a single

[1:27:20] being watched so yeah know that's still a problem on Twitch had that issue for ages man and I it makes me wonder like they need to have better like you know didn't spend the $2 billion in multiple years to build a a system like YouTube

[1:27:33] copyrighted stuff on Twitch and it's mostly caused by lack of being of thing they don't have a good automated people doing manual feedback to Twitch of saying hey this channel is a problem

[1:27:47] I'm the copyright owner and if that doesn't happen it just stays up you know yep exactly man and like it's it's like all manual reporting like it's like numbers of reporting and like I guess like the lack of automation on

[1:28:00] Twitch is probably the big both in like terms in sa trust and safety and because I've kind of gone back and forth on but I think that trust and safety just is human people you can't really be objective by definition of just having

[1:28:14] going to have ideologies you're going to have political affiliations you're going to have that leak through at least in some way on on moderation like unless you create automated systems and you get clear guidelines to say this is

[1:28:26] like a lot of people think is hard to to find they think it's a gray line but no like advertisers clearly we we we totally know like the if you know when you upload a video and you and you go through all those categories um on

[1:28:38] YouTube where it says green yellow and red and it's like this is okay this is everyone knows what these categories are but I don't know why YouTube or why that and be like literally just copy and paste it from YouTube If you have to and

[1:28:52] right it doesn't matter if it's ideological or not if you do this you're banned or you're or or or your or your time out or whatever like I don't know why moderation is still a human issue at this in this day and age on Twitch I

[1:29:05] bias or actual bias being going on where certain people don't get banned or they still doing it there's not enough automation to handle that kind of stuff automation game on that side and it's it it leads to a detriment of twitch as a

[1:29:19] brand in the Public's perception no matter what they've had that issue for I've been streaming on Twitch for seven years like I've seen it the whole time three-day ban and they they gave that dude over there a 30-day ban and they

[1:29:32] and you've seen that ages and ages I always thought that one of the most following like streamer bands and just day because there was a narrative for a while nobody gets banned on Twitch and

[1:29:44] then I was like no people do get banned they just get banned in weird amounts the thing that they actually did a lot of the time yeah yeah it's because of well I think that the you said it really well it's both the perception and the

[1:29:58] actual bias right like the perception of the bias becomes worse than the actual bias because once people perceive any kind of bias like if if even one streamer that does sexual content gets banned for 30 days and another streamer

[1:30:10] gets banned for four days right like if even that just happens once now question what can I believe right because because that and and then the perception bias goes way ahead of the actual bias and now we have like a huge

[1:30:22] problem yeah I always thought that they should just be like you do this this is know like just put a label on it say how much how much you get banned for make it put sexual content there s-day ban you get three of those you're banned forever

[1:30:36] that if they just made a standardized system even if that's not the numbers they would use any type of standardized system that was transparent would just whoever banned you that day you know like because no one knows on the outside

[1:30:49] of of uh information they can give out to people as well to show like the impact active bands CU this is one I talk about all the time if you get how 3-day band is worthless how many people see that a a 3day ban is not valuable it

[1:31:03] right yeah like it's just it's a shitty you know whatever three days who cares right one of the things that I found that that people don't realize is if you get banned for three days if somebody's sub Auto renews on one of the days that

[1:31:17] you're banned it doesn't Auto renew it ends in sub [ __ ] and a lot of people don't know that so with three-day ban is actually 10% of your subs are gone a 30-day ban is a full reset for your channel that is devastating dude yes I

[1:31:32] never knew this is that true yes dude it's horrifying so if you're banned for 30 days you lose all of your subs and they have to resub they got to manually to do the charge and it goes this Channel's been banned no charges going

[1:31:47] through your sub is ended and that's it and a lot of people don't realize that I I've never been banned because I don't want to be CU that's scary as [ __ ] yeah want to be CU that's scary as [ __ ] yeah that's crazy Jesus that is that is act

[1:32:02] that can actually completely wreck your channel on on like a 30-day yeah so when three-day ban and people like oh it's a slap in the wrist I was like they just lost 10% of their subs man 10% why is it 10% three days out of 30 so if you do an

[1:32:17] average it's an average of 10% unless they get like a big you know big burst those days or whatever look the draw it'll be about around 10% got it yeah so all the gifted subs and everything like like look at like kais right who

[1:32:30] like like let's say that Ka gets banned for 30 days what like like he's he's dunzo man the guy's got like 200,000 plus yeah yeah he's like 2,000 subs and then like 250,000 gifted Subs around there the only ones that

[1:32:44] they've already done a multi-month sub I don't know how many is that I don't know might be held on Twitch tracker let me go cheack but one of of the things while I don't know what happens there I also don't know do they refund you I

[1:33:00] don't know like if you have a six-month sub and a person gets perab banned do you get five mon money back I don't know like that's a metric that I don't know I don't know either yeah that's interesting it's crazy that that that

[1:33:13] like there's two really strong authorities on Twitch and we both don't know that and and probably there aren't any twitch employees who know that answer like that answer just Mike might know he'd probably be the only one he

[1:33:26] might be able to look it up yeah yeah yeah like but like I actually have no yeah like but like I actually have no idea if it refunds your sub no clue yeah withholding payment system they have where like if you just don't make the

[1:33:38] $5,200 that you make in Revenue uh for the first time broadcasting you just don't get paid out ever but like YouTube has a someware system or yeah it's like that's just kind of free free money for them to take after while it looks like

[1:33:51] we can't see multimon Subs like twitch does have it I don't think does either I for that but there's there's tier one tier two and tier threes on there and that's about it and Kat's got 3,926 tier ones right now do you still

[1:34:05] have twitch's fire hose data did you ever get that no I don't have that we off for all advertisers like mysteriously like like some like it was ago so I so I think that that data would be in there but and we had a direct API

[1:34:18] not sure like I wonder if they shuted that off after they were shutting down all the things for like the um like the breach they started shutting off a lot give us a reason there was no drama they're just like hey we're just doing

[1:34:30] it they're like hey we're just going to Rel we're going to reduce the API access around the time that Twitter did it as well like when Elon bought the company and then he was like yeah no more free data to train GPT on type of thing yeah

[1:34:43] brands were like what if we turn that off and save money yeah I I think they trend I don't think there was anything like really dramatic about it but um that could probably instantly pull up for you on another screen and nowadays I

[1:34:57] know that's the kind of data I would love to have to be honest with you I same user voice we put I just want more analytics from twitch man I've always they can fit those into our an analytics panel like they reworked the analytics

[1:35:10] panel to be like six different pages for some reason I don't know why they did that but they did and there's still not enough data there's good data in there isn't like some of the data where it's like here's how like what the one that

[1:35:22] like really bothers me is this one it's like here's how the um the viewers Find You by country and it's like um it's like this percent of this streamer and this perent that but it's like so okay like on my page it's like okay 59%

[1:35:35] twitch followers 18% other channel pages but like what is this like first of all that doesn't equal 100% but also what is this a percent of exactly like what is the number is it 5,000 is it 150,000 like what or it's

[1:35:49] like 3% of your viewers are from Lithuania and like 50% of your viewers then it just drops off the cliff and it's like wait what what how many people is that and like What's the total and why doesn't this equal 100% or why does

[1:36:04] these viewers from it's like I can't get and then you go on to YouTube and tell you your entire life story you know like like here here like what do you want to know like do you want to know like like oh yeah so this Grandma's dog

[1:36:17] looked your direction on a Tuesday wearing a funky hat and saw your stream watched it for like you get that data on YouTube right but like like twitch doesn't have anything near that and it should be even easier in theory to track

[1:36:30] live um commitment by by users logged in then it should VOD I think I think the only thing I've ever used that for is I I used it for a meme on my stream because I was able to track the average amount of people the

[1:36:44] the stream from Germany yeah and then we found the the only thing we could find with the data is the more people from Germany that are in my chat on average the more quests I get to play factorio and it turned into this gigantic meme

[1:36:57] of it and they're kind of correlative but you'll never prove it but it's funny like that's the data that I got from the analytics Pages we could prove that Germans want me to play factoral fantastic you know like we did um we did

[1:37:10] OCR for a while on Twitch so we ran an overlay on Twitch which we had a we had a bot that logged into every stream above I think it was like 25 viewers my was some somewhere around that number and we would just we would just sit in

[1:37:24] the chat and we would collect all of the the the the text that came from every chat and we have like we have like a [ __ ] terabyte of of like chat data like just an enormous amount from years and years and years of doing this uh we

[1:37:37] the reason we would do this is we would have like a brand like um we did a we every single time that they like somebody typed like brisk in chat we would do we would use OCR to like like see how many times they chatted then we'

[1:37:51] right um it re revealed like tons of interesting certain people's like country like we we started figuring out like okay for some reason like um like girl streamers that are like in the hot tub type categories

[1:38:04] viewers and like an enormous amount of like of like like Middle Eastern viewers and like linking it to countries stuff like hi I'm from here I'm from here and we've actually been able to like get good data out of twitch like because we

[1:38:19] can't trust their reporting whatsoever yeah no that's that's super weird I love weird data like that it's just like what the hell like I I always don't even realize where that like where the data is going to go you just kind of

[1:38:32] hell like this is such a weird Revelation I never would have thought I get that I think that's fun I thought Big Data was fun that's why I want the analytics man like this because I can't draw cool business conclusions from this

[1:38:45] there's like this thing that I could learn about and we can change you know direction or change flow based on the information that we get provided from releasing that information you would get an ecosystem like YouTube like think

[1:38:57] channels there are that are just teaching how to grow and like like like view duration and things like watch time and being like hey like look at this on this graph you can make better content in that instance and like you

[1:39:09] that twitch would end up making more money overall by doing this and it's and it's why I keep pushing for this analytic stuff is like you would get less brand damage from people that are like oh I'm I'm having a bias approach

[1:39:23] because of AD Revenue because they have no data to prove otherwise and you get category I get Less ad Revenue when I'm Revenue yeah I know which category I want to stream in because this is more

[1:39:36] better you know get more money overall doing you know we can't Target by ad category either we can't Target by category for ads on the back end did you know that so I don't think that's true

[1:39:51] for one reason M my Comm and I had a conversation about that and we found that my fet stream was making 205% more ad revenue on a per viewer per minute basis and he said specifically advertisers like animals like the animal

[1:40:07] category so if there's no targeting there how is that happening if I if I want to do an ad Bu from twitch and I get on the phone with them I cannot say um I want this to exist in the um throne in Liberty category or the ashes of

[1:40:23] category so how is it targeted then if it's not targeted on specific is it's targeted based on on viewer Behavior at that point viewer behavior in country I know it's based in country too theater so so tier one tier two tier three ads

[1:40:35] um so like tier one United States uh UK um type of thing and then it should be um it should be theater and and and now

[1:40:48] with the like content classif I haven't bought ads on Twitch in the last like two weeks so the changes to the content classification system also impli that system right now right so what what what could have happened is when when did

[1:41:01] they have that conversation what when was that oh geez that was two years ago bought bought yeah so I guess I wonder what that um that user voice they said you it's there I I wonder if what's happening is that

[1:41:16] as sad as this is man the people that I'm talking to at twitch don't know about that functionality and it's they could sell it to me and because encountered this problem a bunch of times like even in Partnerships or

[1:41:31] anything it's like they just don't know that that like that that's possible it's possible brain train then I I I don't know what else it could be because if if if if Mike is like an a super big like he's he runs uh what's his his job he

[1:41:44] runs like he runs ads right or runs monetization yeah yeah he's a head ofation so if he's saying that you can Target by category I believe him well like um but I wonder then if just like our sales

[1:41:57] team that we were in connection with because Amazon I remember also talking twitch sales works is there's two sales teams there's an Amazon team that's just Amazon and they they can sell twitch inventory and they can also sell it on

[1:42:10] the back of their own Amazon ads that go everywhere on like amazon.com and things specific sales team and I've talked to both and Amazon said that we can't twitch said that they can't Target by category so that's why I was fairly

[1:42:23] then also you've got the data to show that your cpms are so much higher on let me look I actually sent you his exact message on Twitter so you can see it there but yeah no the the CPM on on that channel per ad viewer per admin or

[1:42:37] because I I tried to correlate it with that is is just higher and it's it's higher by a lot man like at the bottom of this I'm trying to find it yeah advertisers seem to like

[1:42:51] it yeah advertisers seem to like aquariums animals and zoos yeah more work has to be done on helping streamers understand fill rates and dequine rates based on content audience your affiliate Channel how to fill rate of 56% oh that

[1:43:03] makes sense as to why yeah because then he's like advertisers seem to like was like what's going on here if they're not doing category targeting how does that occur so I think your cpms likely might have increased because your fill

[1:43:18] rates increased in which case um that signals to Twitch to run more uh more of same thing on the MCN on YouTube Back in the Day what's it like the what they your highle ad inventory like the the ad inventory You' sold at higher cpms and

[1:43:34] then because you're getting a percentage of that c because this is 2023 so the contract had already switched over from Flat CPM I think I understand 55 yes so so so what likely happened is that stream because the fill rates are higher

[1:43:47] okay oh God I got it okay the fill rates were higher so that Stream So G had the the the higher end cpms that got sold and then you made a higher percentage based on that but then that still doesn't explain why he said advertisers

[1:44:02] blows my mind exactly that's why I was like I was like okay so you target was like oh the twitch's targeting categories I'm gonna have a very with my statement maybe he just said it is like an offhand thing and it

[1:44:16] doesn't mean that but that seems unlike him I mean yeah it does because he CU he knows that like a huge amount of people are reading every like the entire yeah that's why I was so interested in that because this was this was back when

[1:44:29] I was just like kind of like hey why why do I see this and he was like cool time be honest with you the the general discourse on the internet at the time you could do that and have a conversation your head bit off little

[1:44:42] funny how we've moved so far north of that yeah we've moved very angrily very kind of cool to see that and I I hope that I hope that he can get into a spot where he can do that again because it's it's nice to have that to cut through a

[1:44:55] lot of the lack of tooling that we have to prove things did he um did he private so hard yeah he's getting attacked all over the place like he's he's getting dude you know how it is it's the internet he deleted bi yeah he did he's

[1:45:10] get it dude doesn't suck like I I've talked to him for a long time he cares he cares very very much so about bringing value to streamers and no one that's that's just kind of how that works man and like it's it's sad to see

[1:45:27] this kind of behavior you know where it's like bashing the [ __ ] out of a dude his his social media like it's not great it's not a good look I'm a strong agree on that again like I think that I understand why people are are making the

[1:45:40] advertisers and people uh and twitch itself on like like like at scale as to like what these problems are I really don't like the personal attacks I I like like like regardless of whether a

[1:45:52] business profal even deserves them or not um I I just there's no we we can't have a productive and functioning Society if everything is Kangaroo corded Knight type of thing where it's like gy you know and then the people just throw

[1:46:07] them on the ice to to fall into the like that's not a we we can't create a reasonable society that way right like we can never have like a good discourse less of this less of that in this campaign yeah yeah there need there

[1:46:20] that's kind of what I was calling out before but I I don't really see the general internet handling that any other way it's it's a lot of um you know very binary reactions very it's all of this or or you should die you know like

[1:46:33] that's it's been like that on the internet for ages man like I get it you think with something like this like that dude doesn't deserve it also yeah suffer also claim targeted ads tailored to individual viewers based on factors

[1:46:46] preferred categories that's generally something that I see in other advertising places on Twitch we do see that different types of ads will play location and one of the ones that I always thought is funny is a lot of

[1:46:58] people in Finland get French ads for some reason and they complain about it like I keep getting ads in French and I'm in Finland I don't know why this constantly right so we do know that

[1:47:10] that there's individual like some kind of factors that they're doing for that kind of stuff and if twitch is doing targeting correctly they can go deeper go there is targeting of some kind yeah so there's targeting by IP and by and

[1:47:23] different ads and and like we we've done that a ton um but you uh but as far as targeting by demographic even though twitch will give you an age R uh readout on your on your own back end on your dashboard for as a streamer you cannot

[1:47:38] target age demographic demographically uh as on the back end as ad buyers you can't do it so so so the targeting basically ends at IP address um hav't system wild to me dude yeah because like that is I mean YouTube is all about that

[1:47:52] oh dude like AdSense is like like if I want to I mean I can literally so so like on Tik Tok for example I can copy and paste an email with this is in this is insane ready for this like on Tik Tok I can copy and paste an email list okay

[1:48:06] just email addresses and then I can say create a lookalike audience based on these email addresses and demographic it will give you a onetoone audience will give you a onetoone audience demographic age disposable income types

[1:48:19] like like like types of things they're interested in Tik to that's that's that's Tik Tok like I think and meta yeah meta and Tik Tok can do it YouTube through AdSense but meta and Tik Tok have some deep sorcery man like they

[1:48:33] you can't Target by demographic you can't Target by disposable income you gender you can't even though that data is apparently available yeah you can't really interesting to me about that is we we've seen like different types of

[1:48:46] we get people talking about like I just got this kind of ad I just got this kind be like what part of the world are you in you know like you know like we'll information and more often than not we

[1:48:58] saying is IP targeting I'm wondering if they're doing IP of the current session session are you getting an like if I VPN over to France would I immediately get French ass you should or you should Bas on yeah that's something I want to test

[1:49:13] and the other thing that I'm wondering is if if it's based on access history checking is to check to see if this person is mostly in Germany or mostly in the United States like are they in average or what language are they typing

[1:49:27] another one or what language do they watch on General streams and if they're they commanding any kind of premiums for their ad targeting that's what I'm saying that's wild yeah I mean that's insane honestly the yeah you're you're

[1:49:41] like like like the the the the pitch is we have higher watch time than other they're bigger they're bigger in terms of power users and that's going to mean that they are like when the the pitch literally is like when a person and I

[1:49:55] twitch we were in a for for years so I I I gave this pitch to people right and like the pitch was and I believed it at the time like like this is like 2019 is 20 2019 2021 we're at a for twitch we're running inventory we're helping them

[1:50:09] sell ads we're doing on back of sponsorships right like and and my my Minutes of watch time you've got a way platform yes the cpms are higher but you're paying a premium for that because

[1:50:21] and their eyeballs are on that for longer so that so that it's going to people goes okay right but in reality like when you look at the actual what we call roas which is return on Advertising spend when when the data actually shakes

[1:50:35] energy drinks did you sell versus running an ad on uh on YouTube or meta incomparable and it turns out you can't even get that data because again there's actually like determine like what happens as a results of your ad being

[1:50:51] shown yeah getting no getting no return on investment on that to like find out the things that are happening on Twitch is pretty wild even even television has even neelen data can give you better results than that that's weird it makes

[1:51:05] me wonder I guess the basic thing that I have coming out of this now is what kind of a business does twitch believe that it is right yeah and that's that's really where that goes is the way that I see twitch is an ad delivery business it

[1:51:18] content delivery business and streamers are the ones that provide that content they delivered out is Twitch trying to pose themselves as a service for that the direction that they're going here because they clearly haven't put a

[1:51:32] massive amount of extra you know engineering time into building the ad system and it makes me wonder why you know what is the vision that they have for the business if that's the case and you know well I think for a long time it

[1:51:47] was broadcast rights so so so what they figured that people would pay them similar to network television to that like if you are OverWatch League or you are the LCS you will pay to be exclusive on a platform like twitch because you

[1:52:02] drive from there and during the era of E I think you know my history right like I ran I used to run Esports teams yeah so so so like um back in the day like twitch dude straight up paid us like a multi-million dollar contract at CLG per

[1:52:16] year for us to have all of our streamers on Twitch and for us to exist on Twitch their deal with Riot games was much larger right and that existed because there was a there was an idea that like uh remember that whole NFL Amazon thing

[1:52:30] Twitch and things like that like the idea is the NFL did pay broadcast rights and those those deals are like 50 hundred million each like they're big deals so like if twitch can secure a few of those off of like I don't know like

[1:52:44] they're in the bag but that never really transpired uh cuz it turned out that like again it was an ad problem nobody makes any money off of orts ads so the franchising thing happened and everything blew up and now LCS is giving

[1:52:58] te uh spots to disguise toast team like no no no shade on him but like that's not the Golden State Warriors you know yeah yeah so so that kind of fell understand for a couple of years like they could have been like well yeah like

[1:53:12] rights route you're not going to go the Twitter route everybody says oh why can because Elon Musk doesn't care if he loses billions of dollars because his won an election and now he's a member of the you know he's now now he's like so

[1:53:28] Twitter when they literally just like like like yeah who cares if it loses five 10 no like when it's when he just got $150 billion off of off of Tesla you know and so so you can't compare that model either so like where is

[1:53:42] Twitch like I don't know yeah I don't know yeah and I I don't I don't know really interesting that um you know Dan was able to put in the idea that hey standardized system when that started to happen when like when Dan Clancy took

[1:53:56] whole bunch of changes for this where like Affiliates are able to get 7030 partners are able to see a path to 7030 I was like Wow twitch is finally going in the direction of like automating some of these manual weird esoteric systems

[1:54:08] and then they just stopped yeah I was like dude keep going just make it I you've brought up a really interesting point and it's something that like I back when in emt's days when they had like EMT Aragorn and

[1:54:21] I was literally in like daily conversations with everyone and since like Dan took over the conversation at the top level I've talked to Dan like twice and like the conversation has been like like they're way less uh as funny

[1:54:33] as it is like Dan Clancy is like very um what's the word like uh outward facing broadcast and stuff like that like he'll show up play music or talk or things like that but like he's like very uh closed off to us like to like buyers and

[1:54:45] like um and people like that like we don't like have those audiences with him and it kind of uh it kind of sucks because like when was talking to argon a lot like um there there was just so much more insight into what the platform

[1:54:57] was doing I still begged those people to talk publicly though like it would be so cool if like um I wish that like instead of like like Dan coming on to like a important like 100 viewers and like like showing like a guild feature or

[1:55:10] an all hands would be like yeah like we're seeing here's a problem like it it still bothers me that he hasn't really responded to this entire issue whatsoever that that like he could clear

[1:55:22] up stuff like this instantly right like like he like like he could post the data just him but like you know like twitch in general I just don't know why they're not doing that why total radio silence like yeah

[1:55:37] it makes me it makes me wonder if they if they're they're probably checking to even sense because like yeah if they put out a message I know that the immediate twist is going to be that's all fake this is [ __ ] you it's like are you

[1:55:50] I will always handle internet arguments no matter what it is going on always say something always because in general the way that narratives and information work on the internet right now is if you walk into an empty room and one person says

[1:56:04] else everyone goes well that guy said a thing and there's nothing else in this room so I'm gonna believe that thing just kind of how that [ __ ] works right now so if the longer that twitch stays silent on this stuff the worse that's

[1:56:16] they're going to have to even putting a conversation to that room down the road biggest one honestly to me is the tagging thing if they don't revert that turn into a [ __ ] show because what you're going to have is you're going to

[1:56:30] have not just the top-end streamers that are now putting on a tag to remove ads tens of thousands of midlevel and smaller streamers suddenly not you know I know you were aware that stat you've said it on your shorts before I

[1:56:45] caught you I saw you say it um the the the bounce rate of pre-roll ads yep yep and if they put if they put a tag on there that says like politics and suddenly they have no ad 30% more viewers yeah and they get 30% more

[1:56:59] either on top of that ttch is out tons of money yeah like tons and tons and not their ads aren't being shown and so I I the the problem so this

[1:57:11] right because like in my post I I I talked about the CCL problem and and I I an automated system this is the only gear that twitch has to turn so like if you don't fix the tag system or let's say you just disabl the tag system as it

[1:57:27] is now like you just you say okay just kidding um you can now put Politics on have all the pressure from advertisers that are saying wait what the hell like on you know this political streamer streamer or something now we can't do

[1:57:40] literally stuck what do you do because like if you disable this you have all the advertisers say like what like why can't we why can't we uh choose where we this way then you have problem you just said which is like you literally have

[1:57:53] millions of people um that are just or 100 thousands of people that are disable them I think the really interesting those people disabling ads you're going to have people like me that do run ads

[1:58:05] actually making more money in the short term off ad our ad fi is going to go through the roof your ad go yeah exactly because there's no other him off and I think the thing that's really weird about that is and a lot of

[1:58:19] over overall I think they're going to lose a shitload in broadcasting fees data for all those streams and if suddenly all those streams aren't like can go above a certain amount of AD fill on streamers like us that are actually

[1:58:32] this point where they're like we have Surplus ads we have nowhere to deliver what's crazy is that's the thing I'm worried about that already happened right like that in in the past like three or four years there was a huge

[1:58:45] push if you remember this where um so at first the they the the twitch contracts paid for exclusivity and then they uh paid and there was a flat rate on top of that You' get paid like money to stream and and then they dropped the

[1:58:58] flat rate down and they put a requirement in for you to run ads that's soda popping people that would were in no bit like like someone like chance run ads if he like like then their partner contracts changed and their

[1:59:12] run three minutes of ads an hour and you saw every streamer do that like they the website they tried really hard because if you remember streamers hated everybody's like I'm not going to run ads like I'm not going to interrupt my

[1:59:24] broadcast that was it took like a huge cultural change and push to do that and the whole thing yeah no that's god dude I'm oh I

[1:59:36] of everything you've told me today is the lack of an automated ads ad delivery system yes sir yeah um it's just leaving money on the table man it's leaving money on the table and it's also like you could solve that fill rate problem

[1:59:49] basically entirely by allowing us to run like $500 a budget ads cuz there are so many Brands adds for my stuff immediately yeah yeah of course like like why not and like by the way like you can you you

[2:00:01] should call them up like just call up uh like if you go to Twitch there's a there's a there's a portal for it um and you can literally just talk to a guy

[2:00:13] hopefully it's it should be advertising. twitch.com I'll find it for you yeah um yeah Twitch advertising. TV yeah yeah and so if you if you um if you hit contact us and you and just select your country and everything I think you do a

[2:00:26] you in a queue and you'll just talk to a white glove salesperson and be like I want to run ads on Twitch and you'll F like you'll be that conversation will be worth you having my friend I'm going to do this yeah I yeah they have a whole

[2:00:39] contact form it's just basically an email it's it's an email and and uh I I hope you get a response I I told you a story of a brand going through this trouble and I and I got lucky enough to get a PC at twitch and like I've had a

[2:00:53] constant series of PC's um you can also try to go the Amazon route there's amazon. advertising. something.com it's googleable right um and then you can twitch inventory and they'll have information but this will be very worth

[2:01:06] you doing because because I I think you'll see the back end of the ad system ugab Booga stuff this is like this is like this is like caveman slamming rocks together type of thing dude I I think the thing is so weird about this is if I

[2:01:21] right now and I just click on it they're like here add your business information create your ads set your budget and go go AdSense and you can run like I want to run five of ads I want three clicks on something make sure yeah great buddy

[2:01:36] go have your $5 of ads D enjoy a great time yeah and and then so forth like you're already seeing it right like you're already see it's a contact form there's no backend like you've got you've got to like hope that your email

[2:01:50] goes somewhere there's not even an a responder it like like it's not even like hey thanks we got your email it's just like where did it go am I going to advertised on Twitch who knows it is it is literally like medieval [ __ ] bro yeah

[2:02:04] no that's that's wild I didn't realize it was like that I the only thing I can about earlier is that this is they're retaining that sort of a thing to make it a premium service to really only go for heavy-hitting advertisers I guess I

[2:02:17] mean like that that is like kind of code to me that they just don't have anything to me that they just don't have anything on the back end right

[2:02:30] not their web copy is not marking it like like oh like run ads on Twitch and like this like like talk have a personal ad assistant who comes and massages your streamers like it's not like marketed that way it's just kind of like yeah you

[2:02:45] know I don't care what are you doing here I guess at that point twitch twitch is a premium they they pose themselves as a premium ad service business that's their premium ad service product but their real their real income is through

[2:02:59] know with sports Partnerships like we were talking about earlier that's the real major income and then yeah streamers outside of that I it always is certain streams like we were talking about asmin gold earlier streams that

[2:03:13] incredibly devastating in ter of cost situation hundreds of thousands of dollars yeah yeah know it's wild and like there isn't enough of of people out content that do generate money they can recoup that really so I always felt like

[2:03:26] the streaming side platform of this is kind of a zero sum game without advertising runs platforms like this and it's surprising to me to see that engineering that is gone on on that side that's very strange well the proof of

[2:03:39] concept is is YouTube like like YouTube successfully built a profitable ad platform and like and like I know people are going to every time I say this like but YouTube ads work really well like like like people like uh one of the most

[2:03:53] get you I have I have a bunch of friends at Google and like I talk to Google I go back and forth and like one of the stats they love to put out and it's been it's been verifiably true you can Google it you can look it up is that ads shown

[2:04:06] on YouTube do not affect watchtime rev viewership period so when you go onto a twitch stream and you watch eight pre-rolls you're like I'm not going to I'm out of here I'm going to go do something else but on YouTube you can

[2:04:20] your viewing experience and I think that's a huge W for YouTube I think that that that's a that's like the whole ad experience on Twitch is like when you end it's like you you ever go into like a restaurant or an establishment and

[2:04:33] it's very queer you shouldn't be there like just 100% just culturally like like it's it doesn't feel right like you're like uh oh I I've misstepped I'm not in Street like that is how that entire ad experience feels on Twitch I just don't

[2:04:47] get it yeah it's super strange yeah man I I'm the more I look at more sad I am yeah I know I'm sorry I like I I I I'm glad

[2:04:59] that I could introduce you to this world though because um you again I I I think you have a lot of voice and I think that as you like get into this system and even have like a call with these sales guys like um you'll be able to you could

[2:05:13] change things I think I think the thing that I've always wanted from twitch and more analytics for us to be able to make more informed decisions as streamers yeah and at this point I I want the platform to stay profitable because to

[2:05:26] to stream like straight up like twitch is by and large is the best place to stream comparative like YouTube comparative like kick it's always been that and if they don't do proper business strategies going forward it

[2:05:38] always concerns me because it's like I I remember when mixer happened and I was like but where's the monetization they like all that'll come later and I'm like like all that'll come later and I'm like M like that's not how that goes dude and

[2:05:50] out of me and I remember there was a moment I was sitting in um what was it it was Pax West and there was a guy who came up to me and he's like I want to thing right now what would you change about my business and he goes you should

[2:06:03] stop streaming on Twitch and you should start streaming on mixer and I was like really and yeah that was that was three months before mixer died and I was like that and at the time what I saw was this kind of weird Trend where mixer had

[2:06:17] effectively incentivized botted views on their platform without realizing it yeah currency was a global Channel Point effectively uh it was called Sparks right okay and people would go and leave their computer on running overnight

[2:06:30] watch this so they would get sparks on their on their account and then they their favorite streamer and throw the Sparks at them which would cause Embers to give more money Embers were like bits so think Channel points and bits but the

[2:06:42] increase the amount of money you get from bits got it weird system right yeah was they trained their viewers to leave their phones or computers on overnight watching a stream oh no with no one actually being there you've created an

[2:06:56] I was like what's going to happen here is they're going to open up for because advertisers going to see immediately that they have absolutely no engagement whatever because they have a million billion different people just

[2:07:09] sitting there watching to farm Sparks and that's exactly what happened just we're talking about advertis we're doing a thing for avver Ed dead and I was like bought like what did you expect that's that

[2:07:24] knew about like the emers and Sparks thing that's super cool terrible similar there was a whole push there was a lot of like really legit people like they they had like a guy leaning that was really smart guy named Patrick and um

[2:07:37] Mark Zuckerberg weighed in at one point was like yeah like I see like live streaming as the future of this and then um they pushed like an ability to like you could like pay to promote your stream and the entire [ __ ] thing

[2:07:50] yeah it's it's it's like it's crazy like a lot of people don't know like the died and like like that mixer died because of like ultimately it's just because mixer was like a pet project of a pet project on like one VP at

[2:08:05] Microsoft's like full backing on it that's why you never saw an official post from Microsoft or any kind of thing like I think at one point like at the little bit of clab there but like with like Microsoft as a whole like you never

[2:08:17] really saw it and so mixer was just doomed sad yeah and and kick is like like kick is an interesting platform because I the funny thing is like I don't know how Kick's ever going to run ads man well

[2:08:31] they don't have like like if so if if you're if you're the the the co-owners you're if you're the the the co-owners of kick and you know that you I know invited so full transparency they've invited me on their show and the problem

[2:08:45] every Saturday I'm going to go on the show but the problem is uh Thor that they they they they wake up the show is at 10:00 a.m. cuz they're in Australia like guys this is rough and I will find a time to go it's going to be the next

[2:08:59] about this which is like okay so like you guys own stake I know that you You' of conversions you're getting on and you have if you convert a user up for gambling like that that's like a $250

[2:09:15] $300 lifetime value per customer right like you're making a [ __ ] ton of money so like where's the calculus there that like how many users are you uptick saying like oh kick is a standalone website like like like it's like it we

[2:09:30] we're not affiliated with gambling or stake at all and it's like but dude like your in the literally the entire basis of your website is monetized by up converting people over to stake so like what's going on there and it always

[2:09:43] did seems super Shady to me and it it was one of the things is um I actually got pretty irritated at them a while back because they had a category called um like it was like God I I put a whole thing about this of like TV shows and

[2:09:56] did yeah so this was the whole like they're just literally illegally streaming like dozens and dozens of yeah yeah I did see this yeah they had they had TV shows and movies as like a category and I'm like what like what are

[2:10:08] that and then they changed the name of it to watch party other watch party change other watch party because I called him out I was like this is [ __ ] what are you doing and they forgot to change the url name so like

[2:10:21] the actual when you're on there it would be other watch party and like on the actually say other TV show and movies and they it left it that way for a year man it was like that for a year I made fun of them every month and I think that

[2:10:35] about it on stream and I I bashed him for it man and it became like top on in the middle of that three days kick reached out to me to try and give me an dude I'm literally at the top of lsf making fun of you like what are you why

[2:10:49] care I mean like they like so weird the amount of attention that you could bring like right they'd love it like they they they are willing they're willing to buy you know their monetization model is really interesting like um their

[2:11:02] contracts I've seen tons of kick contracts they just pay streamers like know how the payout system works though is it based on viewership because I have no idea it's based on it's based on time streamed so so so what they do is so on

[2:11:16] contracts right I've also seen sq's contracts so so they that's weird so so the way it works is they take your total viewership on Twitch or on the platform you're coming from and then they they they say okay they have a they

[2:11:30] have a calculation they do on the back end where they say Okay um we think that they're going to make off of viewers I think this is my this is the this is the I'm saying is factual but this is the I think part okay um I think they're

[2:11:43] making a calculation on what they can up convert to stake but but but but that so it works is they take they take the total viewership and then they uh they make that rate and then they offer you a per hour literally

[2:11:57] you get paid per hour to stream so when xqc said he has a $70 million contract right that's not entirely true it is true if he fulfills all of the hours in that contract to stream there but he the total per hour rate would equal up to

[2:12:11] what the I don't remember what the number is like something like $10,000 an hour $15,000 whatever so the way they do every kick contract is they offer you a per hour price and and then they they base that off of

[2:12:24] bringing over and that's that's wild but because they're a gambling company and they're taking a bet they're taking a

[2:12:38] back end they have data that says if we pay a person this flat rate per hour we're basically guaranteed to make this money on on the upend they know they're making money off of sqc because they have some calculation where the viewer

[2:12:51] rate per hour is more than what they're paying them I mean the only way that through sponsorships to convert those people over to their other side of their really it and that's what I'm gonna ask them I'm that point like how do you how

[2:13:05] any type of Revenue whatsoever being made off of a streamer with the cost of transmission you run and you're paying IBS a premium so they're paying more than twitch by deao because they're using IVs as a backend yeah and they're

[2:13:18] proven like we can see that directly you can go to the F12 menu and pull it up and then on top of this you also have them taking only 5% of the sub Revenue Processing or maybe even all of it for payment processing considering you know

[2:13:32] so like when you're dealing with that like there's no money being generated that smells right like that's why I've always been like I don't want to touch that like yep and so dude to their

[2:13:44] credit okay like I I told them in DMS last week I'm like if this is what I'm bringing to this conversation like this is ammo I've got so like and they're it whatever I can't wait to see what they're going to say like like I I I

[2:13:58] that that that that press because I'm gonna I'm gonna go hard because I I don't I have no reason that they're not a client of mine like I don't I don't run any ads there like let's go like but like like props at least to Eddie for

[2:14:11] like actually having wanting to have the tough conversation like like um so if if he can defend it and tell me something that I don't know right like like based on everything we just said IVs um no ads 5% Subs Payment Processing I'm game I

[2:14:27] can't wait but I be really interested because like I'm also I've also noticed they're trying to clean up their brand a little bit and that makes me go the they're going to open for ads like that's because there's not really

[2:14:40] know like that I can really see because they're they're running off of hype people towards stake like I get it but the only reason you want to clean up getting exterior pressure from Amazon because they have the IVs thing that

[2:14:54] getting you know a thing of like maybe we should run ads you know and that's of you want to clean up a brand yeah they've been Banning people they actually changed the other TV shows and movies category finally to watch party

[2:15:06] yeah they finally changed the URL it's it it took them a year but they did it up certain things there they made statements about bad behavior from kick streamers things like that I hadn't seen them play nice before that so I was like

[2:15:19] hm you going to run now is that what you're doing you trying to trying to run I'll run I got budget to run ads on Kick tomorrow man if they if they want it's physically impossible to do right now um I would still not run any of my

[2:15:33] brand safe Brands over there like which are which are like like all like basically like 90% of my clients are totally brand safe people um they care a agency kind of got started on the back of like a little bit more risky clients

[2:15:47] percentage of risky clients than um I would say other agencies do um so I've got budget to run like I'd run it but I I I I agree with you I don't see any other reason to kind of quote clean up the ACT um especially with like another

[2:16:00] with right now is the view Bing situation have you looked into that no I know there's a shill of view Bing the view body streamers were on Kick showing a lever they had where they could turn the lever up and the views viewers would

[2:16:13] go up like it's B on Kick specifically I know what's happening on ttch well twitch is a whole another discussion yeah so so my um yeah that was happening there was it was actually worse early on because you could you could send to

[2:16:25] viewer and even need it was a headless thing so there people like I have spammed at the beginning because there was no constraints dude um you can still

[2:16:37] so so um do people know if this works um this would be my first time checking in with chat but I'm pretty sure that um can you still open up another instance viewership I'm pretty sure you can I'm pretty sure we tried this pretty

[2:16:49] recently that um as as far as I know like um I I know for a fact what you can do is you can open up a um uh another instance like a like count as a viewer and that people were

[2:17:02] let me see I need to pull them up to see if anybody knows it used to test that I need a tester do yeah I mean well everybody can try it right now and open if at least four of us just did it a bit I'm one let's try it right now yeah if

[2:17:17] you all just open up another instance of twitch.tv/ then tell me if the view I like never looks at my viewership I have no idea how many viewers I have because through those numbers um but if you all open up another instance just tell me if

[2:17:29] the viewership meaningfully increases um but previously you could do that and and but previously you could do that and and I also know that if you um set up a virtual machine uh you can create multiple instances and um the the twitch

[2:17:43] view Bots are like dude it's so much much more prevalent at the top um I just something hold on I got to write you all kinds of good memes uh I if you want to see the the data on this this is this is actually crazy I'll DM it to you later

[2:17:58] um yeah it's not working it's not working so they must have fixed it oh wait a minute oh what's happening oh wait a minute what's happening oh that totally works oh it does I told you yeah that went up that

[2:18:13] went up at like 200 viewers dude yeah yeah yeah so everybody open up an instance of it isn't that crazy so like we just that's bad dude that's bad yeah so actually I think this solves

[2:18:29] there's a there's a really interesting thing that you'll see especially if you have a like a a large amount of people in one channel is when ads play you'll of new people suddenly enter you'll get like I'll get like plus 1,700 viewers

[2:18:43] then about 10 seconds after the ad bre is over they disappear again I think it's that causing that I think I think them as a double viewer because they're it's either ad blocking or it's the ad

[2:18:55] double viewer because you could see it like even in in like your page where the stream you see the little Spike every time there's an ad break it's wild like that you can just do like it's that simple that you can just double your

[2:19:09] viewership that way right like so so imagine how easy it is to create false something that's like really crazy I got to send you it later because it's all my DMs and stuff but like it's like the

[2:19:21] I if if I did a YouTube video on where all the bodies are buried and view Bing again um because a lot of these people are my clients that I run ads through right um but um it would be like it it would be like the it would be the end

[2:19:37] man like there are so many top broadcasters that viewbot it's think I think the biggest thing is there's a lot of people that will talk so engaged and I was like I think it's just cuz it's real people it's just

[2:19:51] cuz like we'll do something stupid like I'll give you an example I'll post a website in chat and I was like check this [ __ ] out and it falls over we actually call it the goblin denial of service because there's so many people

[2:20:03] is it just dies right it's h death and like yeah we've been we've been talking because I've talked to other streamers they're like that doesn't happen for me happen for me I was like that happens every time I link anything and it makes

[2:20:16] me wonder if they're not even aware that they're being viewbotted in some cases viewer that's just really obsessed and like I want my favorite streamer up more I'm GNA view bottom and like you'd never know man there's a ton of that happening

[2:20:30] um and and then also there's ineds because ineds also count as viewers and so people so so so think about um do you guys know FX life you know you know that right Thor yeah yeah yeah so like how Wild amount of yeah yeah and so how do

[2:20:44] website that was getting a lot of hits and so they literally just embedded on viewers you can do that for steam steam accounts that you can embed like you can embed anywhere and so anywhere you could like a huge amount of uh especially

[2:20:57] larger broadcasters just have embeds on people's random websites for whatever like you know they're they're running their own thing and have like a couple hundred viewers there and here and there it's actually a really easy thing to to

[2:21:09] check um you can you can go to this website um and you can check the number of logged in users versus not logged in users and on any on on on any we uh on any uh stream and if that number is greater than like 10 or 20% like that

[2:21:24] viewbotted or view Bing themselves and if you look at a lot of the top streams you'll just see that they're like 50 60% logged out users so so they're just they're just not real users yeah no I mean that that's I mean

[2:21:37] that would do it at that point I love that by the way check Bots yeah I need to I want to do that on my stream I want to audit it I love to see your stats I I guarantee that you would have less than 10% uh logged out users I I because I be

[2:21:52] surprised I I um I I again I love your I'm a old OG MMO gamer came up on Everest one like love your ashes a creation content and uh and and dude like I sit in there and your chat is ripping 247 dude they're crazy I think

[2:22:06] something kind of intense in a game chat stays really quiet and someone be like why is your chat so slow for 11,000 I was like watch this seven and then chat just explodes dude like people just spamming this and they like I'll never

[2:22:19] ask again you know it just turns into this huge M yeah it's also fun too when what about this and then like or you like just like kind of call them to and they're like that's why I like like kais not's always like W's chat W's in

[2:22:31] the chat every ww like it's it creates the kais do it's so good because he creates this illusion of like this constant um party going on that you're invited to like that's why I think that like it's so cool to watch that kind of

[2:22:44] doing right now you go to his stream it's like inviting you to like a party everyone's having fun and it's always like chat W's in the chat everybody's participating it's like it's like good it's good ass content