RuneScape vs WoW: Full Breakdown & Transcript

[00:01] declared war on. And wow, the title is interesting enough for me to click on since I played Runescape last year. I'm like, what's going on here? I know What's happening? >> The dream is that we're not the number

[00:14] two biggest MMO brand in the world. We're the number one. [music] the is that the CEO of Runescape? He's saying he wants to be the number

[00:26] so it's not a clickbait title. All right, they're coming for WoW. >> Now, those were the words of John Bellamy. And last March, he returned to Jagex as their new CEO. And since then,

[00:40] he's been on [music] the war path. And now, without even bothering to say the enemy's name, he has decided that Runescape of all games is the one to dethrone World of Warcraft. A tall order. There's been a fair few WoW

[00:54] killers over the last two decades. Now, if you don't play Runescape, you might elaborate joke. It seems bizarre. How can something that looks like this compete with World of Warcraft? >> I like how Bellear says what like a lot

[01:08] of WoW players might think right away. You think this is some type of elaborate joke cuz Runescape does look like this. If you've never played, it's like, bro, this game looks awful. Like, if you've never played, it's just like, dude, what

[01:21] is the point? But like, there's reasons to play. I think you'll get into >> surely not. They're entirely different games. One is an immersive, beloved MMO RPG [music] with decades of content, a thriving community, and is considered

[01:33] dangerously addictive. The other one is World of Warcraft, and we can all point at the graveyard of WoW killers that try to come for the king and uh really have not tended to do that well. Almost every single one of them failed. WoW has been

[01:48] the number one MMO for over 20 years, and that's [music] a spot that they earned and fought damn hard to keep. So, for something else to dethrone it, never mind a point-and-click MMO from 2001, it's going to take something [music]

[02:01] close to a miracle. Now, the guy in question, John Bellamy, has only been the CEO of Jagex for a year, and he comes from a history of private equity and venture capital. So, hey, clearly he's just talking. the usual investor

[02:16] nonsense to make sure he keeps his job, >> right? Well, that is what it looks like at first glance, but after digging into it, it turns out there's more to this story, and I genuinely think Blizzard may need to pay some serious attention

[02:31] to Runescape. I said I I do too. after playing Runescape last year, it's like, yeah, definitely definitely pay attention to these guys because even though they're a smaller game with a smaller IP and like smaller everything,

[02:44] it's like they're doing they're making great decisions that are growing the player base over time. Let me say that again. They're growing the player base over time. The charts are going up, not down,

[02:58] right? Let that sink in. 20 plus year old game and they're they're going up in users. Like that's that's crazy to think about, right? So the decision- making is phenomenal. The game itself obviously much smaller,

[03:13] but learning from the decisions they've they're making and applying it to a larger, more successful IP, that's what we're talking about. Lots to be learned >> It would take a miracle to top WoW. And the thing is, miraculous is kind of the

[03:28] Runesc. >> Someone in the chat said it right. Higher peaks than 2007. That would be like if WoW was more popular today than in Kata. Imagine if we had World of Warcraft

[03:41] today that was more popular than Peak WoW was back in the day. Like, than Peak WoW was back in the day. Like, think about that, right? Crazy. Crazy. discussion that that's why this is a

[03:54] conversation. It's very interesting. It's a very interesting um conversation >> has been having. They've done some things that basically we never see game developers do.

[04:08] broke just about every record we've ever had across every major metric in the last 12 months multiple times. It's on an unbelievable kind of heater. >> That's kind of wild, right? though it is something that we can see. The meteoric

[04:22] rise of OSRS has been incredible to watch. Now, you might think it's a rejection of modern-day nostalgia, like say our own classic World of Warcraft, but it's a whole lot older. OSRS released in 2013 as a reaction to player

[04:37] dissatisfaction with where [music] Runescape was heading, and it settled in start, they establish what I call the first ingredient of their secret sauce. And that is the democratic classic plus [music] treatment. You see, OSRS players

[04:51] get new features, new content, new regions, new skills, everything. It is just like the game never stopped being developed back in 2007. Basically, just like we want from a classic plus. But before Jagex add anything to the game,

[05:05] they pull the player base. And if a super majority vote yes, the thing goes in. If it's at all contentious, it gets thrown in the bin. And ultimately, the player is the arbiter of what goes into the game. As you might expect, that

[05:20] mistakes. The types of mistakes that most game publishers do just run into head first. As an example, in 2021, they called on a fan developer to pull down [music] his HD mod because they were working on their own HD upgrades.

[05:34] players and creators naturally revolted on Mass and Jagex reversed course within a single day. And they actually reversed course so hard that they celebrated the mod developers work and they shared the release date for the mod. That's kind of

[05:50] crazy. And these are the types of decisions I'm talking about. They mess up immediately say sorry. All right. Didn't realize you guys wanted this so much or [snorts] bad. And like have what you want, right?

[06:03] They have the humility to just pivot and say, "Okay, we didn't realize you didn't want that. Boom. Done. Forget about it." Right? Over and over and over and over again. The humility to say, "Let's vote on it. What do you guys want? Oh, you

[06:18] don't want that? We're not going to do it then. You want this instead? We're working on this now." Right? That's all I want in Classic Plus. Literally, all I I want in Classic Plus. Literally, all I want is Classic Era to launch with a

[06:31] want is Classic Era to launch with a pull. nothing else. And then you just build based on what the community wants. The m strong majority, not like a vocal minority, strong majority polls, right? No bots, right? Long active accounts,

[06:46] max level accounts with a certain level of uh maybe item level or experience that can vote. Not just like a level one account. Oh, I get a say now. No. Right. unboughtable polls that are the voice of the community of

[07:01] the people actually playing and they dictate where the game goes. dictate where the game goes. It's worked so well for Runescape. So well in a similar vein just a year later they saw everyone using third party

[07:13] clients that added features to the game. So instead of fighting back against that they laid out ground rules. They published an approved client list and they established what sorts of features they consider to be off limits. That's a

[07:26] really good way of doing it. And by listening to their players and reacting instantly, they are protecting themselves from their own hubris. Though obviously it hasn't been a road without bumps, but it is the road by which they

[07:39] have arrived at record-breaking numbers. You see, their concurrent player counts are freely accessible. And in January of this year, they hit just shy of 260k players logged in at once. And that was not a freak accident. Judging by the

[07:54] chart, they came close again in April. And for comparison, that would have made them the fifth highest played game on Steam right now and [music] in the top Steam right now and [music] in the top 70 for alltime peak player counts. Now,

[08:07] that may not be quite World of Warcraft level, but it's absolutely one of the strongest games in our industry. And hell, they're even winning it. It's unglorable. Like the there's a lot of people playing it's incredibly

[08:19] successful for being a smaller IP than WoW. That's why I'm saying don't copy Runescape's um in-game systems because they're different games. You can't do that. But copying some of the decision-m that is

[08:33] putting them on this incredible trajectory is undeniable, right? Like absolutely undeniable. The hardest war MMO has pretty much ever have to fight and that's the war against bots. Like seriously, the community has been

[08:48] convinced that recent anti-bot measures have actually ended the botting scourge, you usually see in an MMO. And on that development front, OSRS is probably one It's up there with Warframe and Path of Exile. You know, devs who really seem to

[09:05] get the players and quite consistently make what people actually want. That ability to take on player feedback is the first ingredient to their special sauce. What's the second one then? Because it will take something mighty to

[09:18] let an ancient western focused point-and-click MMO somehow topple the huge incumbent that is World of Warcraft. Even though I I love Runescape. I played it before WoW. It's like my OG game. I don't see it never I

[09:34] don't I don't ever see it necessarily topping WoW, right? It didn't have this like Warcraft 3 predecessor. doesn't have this like giant Warcraft IP to its name. It doesn't have that mass social appeal.

[09:48] completely agree. So, I don't necessarily ever see it toppling WoW. But what I am saying is with the decision-m on that smaller IP, it's like it's working the like it's working very well, right? Like learn from it,

[10:02] Blizzard, please. It's it's working well. >> Yeah, that's what the man in charge wants to do. Well, as it turns out, I don't need to do the thinking because a player in a Steam review basically puts

[10:14] it better than I ever could. Quote, "If art is about recontextualizing our most basic relations to the world in a new light or a setting, then this game is truly art. It's the most perfectly balanced mirror for showing how we

[10:28] understand striving for something or work as a whole." H quite the review. little bit more straightforward that just simply says blacktar heroine in >> True. >> So, how they managed to do this? I mean,

[10:43] >> Guys, I when I played Runescape, it was bad. I got so addicted. I was waking up at like 5:00 a.m. so I could start crabbing on my phone, which is this like grinding XP, like attack XP on my phone. And then like as I got out of bed and

[10:59] woke up, I'd open my laptop and then start grinding on my laptop while making on stream. And then after a stream, I would leave my computer on to continue grinding. And then like during a sponsor segment, I would have Runescape on my

[11:12] other monitor to continue grinding while I was sponsored. And then after the stream, I would continue playing on the laptop while making dinner. And then I would continue playing on my phone after that before bed and wake up and do it

[11:25] all again. It was bad. Like way more addictive than Wow. Way more. It was It was really bad. Very addictive. Very addictive. One heart. At the very core of the experience, it's probably

[11:39] work. Work that manages to hit both parts of the brain. that's fun and that's meaningful. That's kind of the hook, the bit that keeps people playing for years and decades instead of just months. [music] It's that basically you

[11:52] put in work and that work, that time, it actually matters. [music] And MMOs are specifically best at this because other people in the world make that feel so much more real. And it's that addictive work loop that's where Runescape takes

[12:06] the fight to World of Warcraft. And fundamentally, I think it's where Runescape can win. This story has been building. You see, last year Mad Season made a video on quote, "The Great Exodus." The TLDDR

[12:20] and players [music] basically got bored decided to give Old School Runescape a shot and basically fell in love with the thing. And as Mad [music] Season leads with, a lot of the reason why is

[12:35] basically progression. World of Warcraft is a seasonal game in its modern >> Wait, wait, what did that say? Tired of these tired of watching these streamers. videos on Runescape would be more than 17 seconds old.

[12:48] Their bandwagon and the search of their videos makes me think Twitch is paying some specific people off. I don't give a crap about WoW streamers finding [laughter] To my knowledge, none of them were paid.

[13:02] did a single sponsorship to my knowledge. Like Guzu, I think was the first like streamer and then Savix. I mean, I've talked to them both personally. I don't think they were paid. I know I wasn't because I'm me.

[13:15] Um, I know Peekaboo wasn't. Soda wasn't. Who else was there? Showbeck definitely wasn't. Joker wasn't for sure. I I don't know.

[13:29] Crazy crazy takes, man. Crazy takes on the old Reddit sphere. >> Progression. World of Warcraft is a seasonal game in its modern incarnation. Every patch you lose most of your progress, right? And it can be reset

[13:41] very quickly. Now, most MMOs are primarily seasonal, which can make the whole thing feel rather sisophian. The popular line is one must imagine Sisphus happy, but the point is [snorts] that Seephus was being tortured. Rolling a

[13:55] boulder up a hill every day only to start fresh in the morning is literally a form of torture. It was meaningless labor with no progress. of course was a punishment for cheating death. >> Now [music] OSRS avoids that sisophian

[14:11] element like the plague. Progress in the game is horizontal and updates do their game is horizontal and updates do their best not to invalidate earlier content. What that means is that when the world grows, it grows forever. Whereas in WoW,

[14:23] functionally shrinks because all previous content is rendered [music] obsolete. OSRS also avoids FOMO where possible, whereas World of Warcraft pretty much adds more limited events than it does permanent content at this

[14:37] >> Basically, OSRS's [music] design philosophy is anti-modern. They do what works. They trust the process and have been [music] rewarded in droves for that's not saying they haven't adopted

[14:52] once again, this is just another example of when at the start of the video I said they have really great decision-making. They're not going the shortterm FOMO route as much. They're going long-term

[15:05] player satisfaction route. Um I remember I back in college we studied Amazon. So I was in college. She's this was in 20 2012 or 2013

[15:17] 13 years ago. So keep in mind Amazon much smaller company back then, right? I selling books. Well, I guess kind of out of that. They were like more transitioning to like, hey, okay, we're going to be the premier place to buy

[15:30] stuff online. And it was a a documentary about Jeff Bezos decision-m and um I found it really interesting because they were interviewing Bezos and because they were interviewing Bezos and he said, "All of my analytic

[15:44] people at the company are telling me to raise the prices on everything because we can, right? We'll make more money." you like have happy investors like do it raise the prices and Bezos was like no because I value the concept of when

[16:01] they're going to go to Amazon because they know it's the cheapest place to get it. So, we're going to sell things at a loss sometimes for that customer satisfaction. Not all items, but some items loss like actual at a loss or at

[16:15] cost to gain customer trust over time. Corner of the market then then then they probably raise the prices um later. Um but my point is it seems like that's a very long-term mindset is my point. Very long-term mindset because it doesn't pay

[16:29] off for 10 plus years or something. And hey, now. I'm not saying Runescape's going to have that same trajectory necessarily, but what I do enjoy, what I do like is that they have this long-term focus. We

[16:43] can do the short-term FOMO stuff, or we can do deci, we can make decisions that are just going to make our player base very happy and might not have a really good payoff for 5 or 10 years. And they started old school in 2013. Now, it's

[16:59] been 13 years and they're still steadily growing, right? It's just a very different decision-m uh modality, very different mentality going into things than short-term FOMO stuff. I actually it's the complete

[17:14] opposite. Let's just say it how it is. It's the complete opposite type of uh decision-m and I think it's really good for one, right? I think it's very very good for one to spice things up. They've got timed leagues, they've got Iron Man,

[17:29] things. They don't detract from [music] the core development philosophy. So then the experience of playing the game is pure [music] permanent progress. It's

[17:41] constantly adding to your accomplishments with no fear of that work [music] ever being lost to an update. Basically number go up in a pure permanent form with loads of complexity to work around with. There's gathering,

[17:57] crafting, a rich economy, tick manipulation, combat, lengthy quests, and everything you might imagine. And all of it is abhorently grindy. It takes a massive wall of knowledge to get into, and hundreds, if not sometimes thousands

[18:11] and hundreds, if not sometimes thousands of hours to reach any semblance of done. grindy >> Oh, yeah. You're ne never done, bro. Never. Never. That's why it's so darn addicting, you know.

[18:23] >> Games ever put on the planet. And that seems to work for it more than it works against it. And the CEO does seem to know exactly how people play the game. >> There's a there's millions of Deote consultants out there somewhere that

[18:37] old school on the other. >> And I think you design for that reality, and that's what we do. >> Now, naturally, that means it's not a game for everyone. a loweffort grindy game that will burn through your mouse's

[18:50] rated click count faster than you can ever imagine is in some ways niche, but I think the fundamental human thing of number go up is fairly universal and OSRS obviously wins in that front. But aspects of it are niche and that's why I

[19:06] think it's not going to take WoW's throne in the way that say you might expect listening to this video. I don't think it's going to cause a mass exodus of WoW players. Instead, I think it is going to go toeto-toe with World of

[19:18] going to go toeto-toe with World of Warcraft over a new audience. And for Warcraft over a new audience. And for that audience, it might just win. that audience, it might just win. I'm I'm trying to think if like I I'd be

[19:30] curious to see if there's any young kids playing Runescape because I'm sure that's the question everyone's asking, right? like or everyone that works at like Jagex like if

[19:42] if it's only a game for 30 plus like at some point it might see a downturn and not it can't just keep growing forever without new kids but I'm I'm curious oh no they should be I'm I'm actually curious if they are cuz like a

[19:57] lot of kids you know when we were kids like played Runescape right like I know I did um H I'm curious what their numbers look like uh hardly any. I bet I like I I would have to bet it's pretty low,

[20:11] right? I have to bet it's actually pretty low, but I don't I don't know. John Bellamy called Runescape the second [music] biggest MMO brand in the world. And until this year, it actually managed that with zero Asian presence. Literally

[20:26] zero. But then they released Runescape Dragons, which is a spin-off game. It's crafting spin-off thing. Think of Valheim, I guess. It did well in the West, but then they tried to put it out with an Asian publishing deal. 40% of

[20:41] their day one sales were in China [music] and 20% since. So, they have a foothold in China, and you could almost say it's one that they took with ease. The game did super well over there. Meanwhile, on our end, Blizzard haven't

[20:53] been able to release a Warcraft game that draws in [music] new players kind of ever, actually. As an example, we know from our leak that Warcraft Chronicles and an Arthus game are in the pipeline, it would seem, but they're

[21:05] lagging behind. Both companies want to launch global PC and console games to onboard people to their MMO IP. And with Dragon Wilds, Jagex beat Blizzard to the punch. Part of their future is growing out there. And part of Blizzard's goal

[21:19] to grow Warcraft relies on new people coming in. But Blizzard will be late by isn't WoW. Though, of course, when it comes to Asia, Blizzard has a strong presence already, but it is a historical one. It's more about reactivating lapsed

[21:33] players, while Jacks are out there scooping up potential [music] future players. And to be honest, I think it's clear that if OSRS went fully in hosting Asian servers and supporting that market, they would likely [music] see

[21:45] that would be growth from the same audience that Blizzard are relying on reaching. I expect that say Classic Plus will probably hit China even harder than don't think I'm like dooming on WoW here. This is far less about WoW bad and

[22:00] it's far more seeing Runescape, seeing what they want to do and finding out does it have a path to be number one. And the result of the analysis is that being number one. >> I see. I I still don't know if I see it

[22:15] point, right? It doesn't need to be number one. Like the fact that it can be number two as literal Runescape is pretty darn insanely impressive and we can just learn from that anyway. Do I see it taking over WoW? I still don't

[22:30] think I do, but that's just not the point. It doesn't need to. You know what I mean? It's like it's just such a it's such a darn good case study anyway, you know? It's just it's uh it's so so rad.

[22:45] >> It would be hard. I don't think it is a surefire thing or is even extremely likely, but I think it's clear that it could happen. But there's one final bit to this puzzle because I actually lied to [music] you at the start of the

[22:58] video. >> Earlier, I spun a bit of a story. I said that their CEO, John Bellamy, was a venture capital guy. And that's truth. >> Okay? That's because he actually worked

[23:11] at Jagex years and years ago [music] and basically was brought back in to set things straight. You see, Jagex has had a troubled history with CEOs and being sold off to different parent companies, but right now it seems like they're on

[23:25] the up and up. Now, [music] the reason I bring that up is because how decisions get made is really important. So on that in his podcast episode with the [music] game business's Chris string, he's asked about a leading from the heart quote

[23:39] that another [music] Jagex exec gave and his response was perfect. Here's what he >> Doesn't feel safe. I think it feels safe to have numbers making the decisions for you're not really making decisions anyway. You're just letting consequences

[23:51] roll out of data points, which is unfortunate. I think for us, that we can really do well. >> Now, here's where it gets interesting. One of the first things he got to do as the new CEO was actually remove massive

[24:04] Runescape. Now, when I say Runescape, I mean the current less popular product, not OSRS. They had things like the daily treasure hunter money sync that was completely removed in January of this year alongside tons of other money

[24:17] squeezing progress items and things that were just [ __ ] Now, he since revealed that it was a major hit to their revenue, but that it's a hit they were willing to take [music] to reset the game to where it needed to be. So, like

[24:29] You could have short-term hits to revenue to build long-term customer satisfaction and approval to build a larger player base over time to build to, you know, make less money per user. But it's a giant it's a larger pool of

[24:44] users, right? It's a decision. Do we want to squeeze the users that we have grow over time and make less money on more people? It's just a decision. and they're making the decision to take make less money in the short term for a

[24:59] long-term financial gain. I mean, it's still a business, let's be honest. Um, but it's a decision. It's a hard decision. It's a very hard decision, but make. >> It still has monetization, yes, but they

[25:12] fixed the PR issue of having way too much that just felt wrong. And what that means is that in general, [music] the PR out of Runescape is now almost entirely positive. And even if it dips, they do try to make sure it recovers. The trend

[25:26] line is currently pointing up with almost no [music] asterxes. And you know what? It's impossible to imagine saying the same thing for Blizzard right now. So, I'd say this. If I had to make a 5 or 10 year bet right now, does Runescape

[25:39] overtake WoW as a global MMO brand? I would hesitate, but I would not be able to say yes. World of Warcraft [music] is gigantic. Of of course. >> I mean, I'm going to say no. WoW stays number one on the like global scale,

[25:53] right? It's World of Warcraft. It's the best game of all time. Like I'm Look, I played Runescape first. I love both games. I'm bi I I'm biased actually in both ways. I love both. But like it's WoW, man. Like WoW is so good. We just

[26:05] need some better decision-m, but like WoW is just, you know, it is. Classic Plus is just around the corner. And if [music] it's done right, Classic Plus would be Blizzard's OSRS equivalent. It would be huge, I think, especially in

[26:18] off, I think it will be way more numbers than OSRS will bring in. Then [music] there's the television project push. going to be a thing. If they can actually knock all that stuff out the

[26:31] park or even just do a pretty good job, then WoW probably will be MMO king until the heat death of the universe. After all, Runescape for all of its strengths is not the IP with say one of the most famous King Killers in the world. But

[26:45] ultimately, I will say this. It's great to hear the CEO of another company that that he wants to take out World of Warcraft, that he wants to dethrone it. That's good because it's competition. That OSRS can do that will [music] light

[27:01] a fire underneath Classic Plus. And if things work out well, that'll mean that we just get a better Classic Plus. >> Exactly. Like that's why I want other MMOs to do well, because if they do well, it's more stuff to play. But not

[27:14] only that, it makes WoW do better. If WoW is the only one in the space, like that's why I want the Riot MMO to do really well, too. Cuz if if the Ride MMO Runescape does really well, it's like a crap. Okay, we have to like dial in

[27:27] here. We can't just like put out we can't put out slop. Like, we have to lock in, right? >> So, Liz, don't take your success for discovery and multiple seasons of classic and its permutations have

[27:40] happened, well, mess up classic plus. simply have just had their fill and perhaps move on to OSRS. We have certainly seen evidence that that segment of the WoW player base kind of

[27:55] will because they already have. Just see the mad season video. But if another dash of WoW intrigue is more your speed, check out this video next. It's all about the PTR and the very obvious dangers of it that I think are quite

[28:09] certainly hurting. Wow. >> Okay. Yeah. I Bro, I really enjoyed this video. I put it on my watch later a bit hesitantly cuz like I knew I know you guys don't like Runescape maybe as much as I do, but

[28:22] like that was a good video. Did you guys All right, be honest. Was that Were you guys bored? I enjoyed every second of that. That those are the kind types of conversations and thought processes that I love though, right? Like I I enjoyed

[28:35] that. So, thank you to Pellear for putting that one together. Huge. Huge. right? Like kind of interesting. Food for thought at least. Even if you don't like Runescape. Okay.