Dr. Matt Walker: Protocols to Improve Your Sleep | Huberman Lab Guest Series

[00:00] [Music]

[00:00] welcome to the hubman lab guest Series

[00:02] where I and an expert guest discuss

[00:04] science and science-based tools for

[00:06] everyday

[00:07] life I'm Andrew huberman and I'm a

[00:10] professor of neurobiology and

[00:11] Opthalmology at Stanford school of

[00:13] medicine today marks the second episode

[00:16] in our sixth episode series all about

[00:18] sleep with our expert guest Dr Matthew

[00:20] Walker during today's episode we discuss

[00:22] the dos and the do Nots of sleep

[00:25] focusing for instance on how to use

[00:27] light and absence of light as well as

[00:29] temperature both of your sleep

[00:30] environment specifically the room you're

[00:32] in your body temperature and much more

[00:34] in order to regulate the timing and

[00:36] quality of your sleep and we discuss how

[00:39] things like alcohol caffeine and

[00:40] cannabis impact sleep and the various

[00:43] stages of sleep and we discuss the

[00:45] various tools that exist now and that

[00:47] are rapidly becoming available to

[00:49] improve your sleep this episode is

[00:51] essential for anyone trying to optimize

[00:53] their sleep and when I say optimize your

[00:54] sleep I mean trying to optimize the

[00:57] formula that was addressed in the first

[00:58] episode of the series which is the qqr

[01:01] formula the quality quantity regularity

[01:04] and timing of your sleep four variables

[01:06] that combine to determine whether or not

[01:08] your sleep is optimized for you and

[01:10] thereby providing the most restoration

[01:12] and Improvement to your mental health

[01:14] physical health and performance before

[01:16] we begin I'd like to emphasize that this

[01:18] podcast is separate from my teaching and

[01:19] research roles at Stanford it is however

[01:22] part of my desire and effort to bring

[01:23] zero cost of consumer information about

[01:25] science and science related tools to the

[01:27] general public in keeping with that

[01:29] theme I'd like to thank the sponsors of

[01:31] today's podcast our first sponsor is

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[03:18] train or not train and basically point

[03:20] to the things that I'm doing correctly

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[03:23] can adjust using protocols some of which

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[03:49] huberman today's episode is also brought

[03:51] To Us by waking up waking up is a

[03:54] meditation app that has hundreds of

[03:56] different meditations as well as scripts

[03:58] for Yoga Nidra and non-sleep deep rest

[04:00] or nsdr protocols by now there's an

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[04:06] short daily meditations can greatly

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[05:25] up.com huberman and now for my

[05:28] conversation with Dr Matthew Walker

[05:31] Professor Matt Walker welcome back we're

[05:33] all so happy to have you here and in

[05:35] episode one you beautifully described

[05:39] the biology of sleep why sleep is

[05:41] important what happens when we don't get

[05:43] enough sleep and you incentivized

[05:45] getting adequate amounts of great sleep

[05:48] and you defined what great sleep is and

[05:50] you provided some excellent practical

[05:53] protocols and tools for getting great

[05:55] sleep

[05:57] however today you're going to tell us I

[06:00] believe about the protocols for really

[06:04] optimizing one's sleep both conventional

[06:08] tools and protocols and some let's say

[06:11] unconventional not heretical but

[06:13] unconventional tools for optimizing

[06:16] one's sleep so let's start with the

[06:18] basics what are the basics of what I

[06:21] think I've heard you refer to previously

[06:23] as sleep hygiene yeah I think we many of

[06:27] us can resonate with the idea of dental

[06:30] hygiene but turns out there's something

[06:33] called Sleep hygiene and there are

[06:36] probably I would say five edicts of

[06:40] sleep

[06:41] hygiene I offer them as as

[06:46] tools and not necessarily rules because

[06:50] I don't think people respond to rules

[06:53] people respond to reasons and not rules

[06:56] so if it's okay I'll probably just

[06:57] unpack each one of them rather than just

[06:59] sort of bark them at you and hope people

[07:03] assume that it's the right uh answer

[07:05] I'll explain the answer so people

[07:07] understand why it's

[07:08] important so as I said there are

[07:10] probably five things that you can start

[07:12] doing tonight to try to improve your

[07:15] sleep the first we've spoken a little

[07:17] bit about in that first episode it's

[07:20] part of the four macros of good sleep

[07:23] first piece of advice

[07:25] regularity go to bed at the same time

[07:27] and wake up at the same time

[07:30] no matter whether it's the weekday or

[07:31] the

[07:32] weekend regularity is king and the

[07:36] reason is because when you feed your

[07:38] brain the signals of timed regularity

[07:42] for your sleep it will anchor your sleep

[07:46] and improve the quantity and the quality

[07:49] of that sleep because part of that

[07:51] signal of regularity going into your

[07:54] brain in terms of that repeated Behavior

[07:56] night after night sleep in other words

[07:59] helps train that Central 24-hour Cadian

[08:04] clock that we also spoke about in the

[08:06] first episode so that's the first piece

[08:08] of advice try to keep it as regular as

[08:11] you possibly

[08:12] can the second piece of advice is

[08:17] darkness in my view we are a dark

[08:20] deprived Society in this modern era and

[08:23] we need Darkness at night as well you've

[08:26] spoken about to release a hormone called

[08:30] melatonin and melatonin will help time

[08:33] the regular onset of your sleep so that

[08:38] sounds great but what boots on the

[08:40] ground Matt what does that mean I would

[08:43] suggest the following in the last hour

[08:46] before bed try to dim down 50% if not

[08:50] more of your lights in your home and you

[08:54] will be quite surprised at how sleepy

[08:56] and soporific that will make you feel

[09:00] I will do this in a regimented way I

[09:03] have uh little reminder that pops up and

[09:07] tells me now is the time to dim the

[09:09] lights based on your bedtime and I'll go

[09:12] around and I'll shut lights down in my

[09:14] bedroom I will actually have a small

[09:16] light bulb and it is way down to

[09:19] probably as little as maybe five luxs

[09:23] and look is just a a metric of the light

[09:27] um it's way down there and it's also

[09:29] very deep orange sort of red and we can

[09:32] come on to why that's the case so that's

[09:35] the first thing even before you're

[09:36] thinking about sleep start to decrease

[09:39] the

[09:40] light for example if you

[09:43] were there at let's say for a standard

[09:46] sleep schedule at 1000 p.m. and normally

[09:49] you are getting into bed at 10:30 p.m.

[09:51] but you feel pretty wide awake if there

[09:54] was an electrical blackout and you lost

[09:57] your phone magnetic to phone goes down

[10:00] lights go down Total Blackout my

[10:03] suspicion is that fairly soon you'd say

[10:06] gosh how you feel quite sleepy whereas

[10:09] if the lights were blazing you've got

[10:11] your phone television's on lots of

[10:14] stimulation you're probably going to

[10:16] think 10:30 no I could I could probably

[10:18] push through for at least another hour

[10:20] so try to dissipate that light and then

[10:24] if you need to wear an eye mask blackout

[10:26] curtains always good as well but we need

[10:29] that Darkness at night because when you

[10:32] give the brain the signal of Darkness it

[10:35] releases effectively a brake pedal that

[10:37] brake pedal has normally been applied by

[10:40] way of light on the release of that

[10:43] spigot of meel melatonin and when you

[10:46] take the brake pedal off it

[10:48] starts starts pumping out into the

[10:51] brain you can also then of course

[10:54] probably reverse engineer this trick in

[10:57] the morning and this is another

[10:59] component of why you've been I think so

[11:03] such a wonderful advocate for light in

[11:05] the morning it does many things but one

[11:07] of the things that it does is reapply

[11:10] that break on melatonin and therefore

[11:13] you lose the signal to your brain of

[11:16] Darkness that's what melatonin in some

[11:18] ways is doing we often call it the

[11:21] hormone of Darkness or the vampire

[11:23] hormone not necessarily because it makes

[11:25] you look longingly at people's necklines

[11:27] and want to to to bite it which is great

[11:30] if you're into that but it's really

[11:32] simply about it's releasing melatonin

[11:35] which tells the brain my goodness it's

[11:37] nighttime but if you've got bright light

[11:40] on you come from your office you're

[11:42] driving home so you've got artificial

[11:44] light during the day which is probably

[11:46] not strong enough to stimulate you and

[11:49] bring you awake you come home and you've

[11:51] got again bright light but it's still

[11:55] strong enough now to prevent the release

[11:58] of melatonin you start to shift in your

[12:00] timing and you may have problems with

[12:02] your sleep so that's the second piece of

[12:04] advice I would love to ask you about

[12:06] that Morning Light two and the alertness

[12:09] benefits I'm as a sleep researcher more

[12:12] focused on the evening component of

[12:14] light and decreasing it but you've done

[12:16] a great job I don't know if there's

[12:17] anything yeah there are a couple of

[12:19] quick points that um are based on some

[12:21] what I consider really nice studies uh

[12:24] there's beautiful work in human showing

[12:26] that bright light exposure in the

[12:28] morning especially from sunlight but um

[12:30] if one doesn't have access to sunlight

[12:32] for whatever reason there are

[12:33] commercially available so-called sad

[12:35] lamps Seasonal effective disorder lamps

[12:37] they range anywhere from 5,000 to 10,000

[12:40] Lux very bright but um but certainly uh

[12:43] morning sunlight viewing and lamps of

[12:46] the sort I just described have been

[12:48] shown to increase the amplitude of the

[12:50] morning cortisol Spike by as much as

[12:53] 50% 5 so people hear cortisol and they

[12:57] freak out they think that's not good I

[12:58] want cortisol low but you actually want

[13:00] your cortisol highest in the morning and

[13:03] lower in the afternoon and evening um

[13:06] and there's a lot of reasons for that

[13:08] elevated mood focus and alertness in the

[13:10] morning and throughout the day and uh

[13:12] ease of getting to sleep at night lower

[13:13] anxiety lower depressive symptoms and so

[13:15] on so that bright light also serves to

[13:18] um control the amplitude of cortisol uh

[13:21] it in the direction you want in the

[13:22] early part of the day the other thing

[13:24] that's just more of a uh underlying

[13:26] dynamics of the Circadian visual system

[13:29] which is a system that I worked on for

[13:31] years um these wonderful um cells in the

[13:34] eyes that are not for image forming but

[13:36] rather for detecting sunlight and bright

[13:38] light for sake of setting circadian

[13:39] rhythm is that the sensitivity of that

[13:42] system early in the day is actually

[13:44] quite low so you need a lot of bright

[13:46] light early in the day to effectively

[13:49] wake up your system and shut down the

[13:50] sleepiness signals such as melatonin but

[13:54] later in the day it's a rather

[13:55] diabolical system it takes very little

[13:59] light even from artificial sources to

[14:02] disrupt your circadian rhythm and quash

[14:04] melatonin as little as 15 seconds of

[14:07] bright light in the evening I think CH

[14:10] Chuck Zer laboratory at Harvard Medical

[14:12] School showed can quash melatonin in the

[14:15] evening now I don't want people to freak

[14:16] out and think that if they go into a

[14:17] hotel bathroom which oftentimes those

[14:19] are very bright in the middle of the

[14:20] night flip on the light that they're

[14:22] going to um completely uh screw up their

[14:25] circadian rhythms but if I'm honest

[14:28] they'd be much better off using um their

[14:30] phone as a flashlight to navigate people

[14:33] always say well wait but the flashlight

[14:34] on the phone is very bright but let's

[14:35] just get logical here a light shown into

[14:38] your eyes if such as a a flashlight is

[14:40] very different than looking at a

[14:41] flashlight Beam on the ground yeah Far

[14:43] and Away difference so the point is that

[14:46] if you don't get enough bright sunlight

[14:47] or light in your eyes early in the day

[14:50] and then you're indoors under artificial

[14:52] lighting you might think well this is

[14:53] really bright lighting this is the kind

[14:55] of lighting that could disrupt my

[14:56] circadian rhythm at night and therefore

[14:58] it's sufficient to wake up my system no

[15:00] early in the day and throughout the day

[15:02] you need a lot of bright light as much

[15:03] as safely possible to avoid Sunburn and

[15:05] things of that sort which you don't want

[15:08] but then as the evening comes around

[15:09] after Sundown you need very little

[15:12] artificial light in order to disrupt

[15:15] your circadian rhythm and then just very

[15:17] quickly light from candles fireplaces is

[15:21] okay this is kind of interesting it

[15:22] seems bright it's but the but the

[15:24] measurements uh indicate that that's not

[15:26] going to shift your circadian rhythm

[15:27] much candles are great but of course

[15:29] don't burn your house down so the the

[15:31] orange and red tones in the evening way

[15:33] dim down that's the way to go early in

[15:36] the day bright bright bright light as

[15:38] bright as you safely can tolerate and

[15:41] what I like about firstly your mention

[15:43] of cortisol do you described how

[15:45] cortisol is rising in the morning and

[15:47] that's a great thing and it is a good

[15:49] thing and in the evening it's starting

[15:51] to drop and if you look right around

[15:53] your prototypical bedtime and we're

[15:55] going to speak later in this episode as

[15:58] to what your real natural bedtime is

[16:01] versus the one that you may be taking

[16:04] right now it's very interesting cortisol

[16:07] will almost hit its lowest point

[16:10] something that we call its Nader it's

[16:12] the lowest point in that trough of its

[16:14] decline right around the time when you

[16:16] should be sleeping however there's a

[16:19] great study that looked at people with

[16:22] insomnia and in uh subsequent episodes

[16:25] we'll we'll discuss this too but one of

[16:28] the ways that we think about or

[16:29] conceptualize insomnia is in two

[16:32] different flavors sleep onset insomnia I

[16:35] can't fall asleep and sleep maintenance

[16:37] insomnia I wake up I can't get back to

[16:40] sleep and what they looked at was

[16:43] essentially cortisol levels they had um

[16:46] a catheter in the arm and they were

[16:48] sampling it from the bloodstream and

[16:50] they were able to do that every 30

[16:52] minutes so it's a little bit like

[16:53] timelapse photography and you're getting

[16:56] a data point every 30 minutes across the

[16:58] 24 hour period looking at cortisol

[17:01] across now a full 24-hour period and

[17:04] sure enough when you look at healthy

[17:06] controls who can sleep well and insomnia

[17:08] patients they look almost identical

[17:11] across the day but then when it comes to

[17:15] falling asleep right around that bedtime

[17:17] period the healthy controls are going

[17:20] all the way down the insomnia patients

[17:23] go down and down and down and then they

[17:24] have a rise back up right around that

[17:26] sleep onset period and then they start

[17:29] to drop back down again just as the

[17:31] control group but then they also often

[17:34] will have a spike in the middle of the

[17:37] night which then comes down and then

[17:39] both of them are staying low throughout

[17:41] the early morning period and then it

[17:43] starts to rise back up so it's not as

[17:46] though net net overall there is a higher

[17:48] level of cortisol in people with

[17:50] insomnia it seems to be right at those

[17:52] trigger zones that map very nicely to

[17:55] sleep onet problems sleep maintenance

[17:58] problems very interesting as somebody

[18:00] who wakes up in the middle of the night

[18:01] and sometimes has trouble getting back

[18:03] to sleep that that resonates I I have no

[18:05] trouble falling asleep whatsoever yeah

[18:08] knock on wood superstitious about this

[18:11] at this point but I use tools like

[18:12] non-sleep deep breast Yoga Nidra long

[18:15] exhale breathing but you know and I

[18:18] think these wakeup uh episodes seem to

[18:21] happen more when I'm processing a lot of

[18:23] stuff from my daily life that's right

[18:26] you know it's um the unconscious brain

[18:28] um

[18:29] often times it's working through things

[18:31] and and will wake us up yeah I often

[18:33] think

[18:34] that sleep maintenance insomnia that

[18:37] you've just described is the Revenge of

[18:41] daytime emotions

[18:43] unresolved that's a great way to put it

[18:45] yeah so that would be so we've spoken

[18:47] about regularity we've spoken about

[18:48] darkness and we've spoken about the

[18:50] inverse of that in the morning which is

[18:52] light a little bit of cortisol so the

[18:54] third out of the five is going to be

[18:57] temperature and the advice here is keep

[18:59] it cool as we mentioned a little bit in

[19:02] the first episode and we will go into

[19:04] great detail when we speak not just

[19:05] about these conventional and

[19:07] unconventional tips but we're also going

[19:09] to go into the future of Science and

[19:11] where sleep science is taking us to in

[19:14] fact optimize and even enhance our sleep

[19:18] we will speak a lot about temperature

[19:20] suffice to say that you need to drop

[19:23] your core body temperature and your

[19:25] brain temperature by a little less than

[19:27] 1° cus 2 to 3 Dees fhe to get to sleep

[19:31] and stay

[19:32] asleep the general Target that we have

[19:37] in sleep science if you look across the

[19:39] literature is somewhere around about the

[19:41] 67 Dee Fahrenheit or I'm trying to do

[19:45] the calculation maybe 18.5 is degrees C

[19:48] now I know that that sounds cold and

[19:51] cold it it is but you can also wear

[19:54] thick socks to bed you can have a hot

[19:56] water bottle at the end of the bed

[19:57] that's great too but the ambient must be

[20:00] cold the fourth piece of advice is Walk

[20:05] It Out and here what I mean is do not

[20:09] stay in bed for long periods of time

[20:12] awake and I think we mentioned this

[20:15] perhaps in the first episode too when

[20:18] you are awake in your bed for long

[20:20] stretches of time because your brain is

[20:23] an incredibly associative device it will

[20:27] quickly learn that that this thing

[20:29] called my bed is the place where I'm

[20:32] awake and not

[20:34] asleep and what you need to do is break

[20:37] that Association if you've learned that

[20:40] time and time again because you've

[20:41] stayed in bed and the rule of thumb and

[20:43] it's just a a rule of thumb about 20 25

[20:47] minutes if you can't fall back asleep or

[20:50] you can't fall asleep it's okay just say

[20:53] tonight is not my night it's not a

[20:55] problem it's tomorrow is not completely

[20:58] shot it's fine I'm just going to get up

[21:01] get out of bed if you can if you're

[21:02] lucky enough try to go to a different

[21:04] room and in dim light read a book listen

[21:07] to a podcast whatever it is that relaxes

[21:11] you just do that don't check email don't

[21:13] eat because if you start eating that

[21:15] again trains your brain to start waking

[21:17] up and feeding at that time and only

[21:21] return to bed when you are sleepy and

[21:23] there is no time limit for that I don't

[21:25] want you to come back after half an hour

[21:28] when you are still awake and not feeling

[21:30] sleepy enough why because you're going

[21:32] to get back into bed and be in the same

[21:35] problem again and gradually if you do

[21:37] this and it's hard to do

[21:39] it you will relearn the association that

[21:43] you had I'm sure as a child which is

[21:45] that your bed is this place of

[21:48] sleepiness because often people will be

[21:50] saying I I feel so tired in the evening

[21:53] and then they get into bed and they say

[21:56] but now I can't fall asleep at all and I

[21:58] don't understand it in part it's because

[22:00] of that learned Association so that

[22:02] would be the fourth tip the fifth tip um

[22:06] makes me um even more unpopular as a

[22:10] personality and character which is try

[22:12] to be mindful of your alcohol and

[22:15] caffeine now in a subsequent episode

[22:18] we'll go into great detail as to how

[22:20] caffeine Works its mechanisms why it is

[22:24] sleep disruptive and why in fact I've

[22:26] even perhaps changed my mind

[22:29] on caffeine and and its benefits but it

[22:32] also does have significant detriment to

[22:34] your sleep so the rule of thumb here

[22:37] would be try to cut yourself off from

[22:41] caffeine probably at least 10 or so

[22:44] hours before you expect to go to bed and

[22:47] you can just calculate back calculate

[22:49] that and try to limit it so the dose and

[22:53] the timing make the poison cut yourself

[22:55] off after maybe two or three cups of

[22:58] coffee coffee and then that timing

[23:00] component count yourself back C yourself

[23:03] off decaffeinated coffee not too bad if

[23:05] you find the right thing too if you need

[23:07] that

[23:08] fix alcohol is probably one of the most

[23:13] misunderstood sleep aids in a quotes

[23:17] that there is it is no sleep aid at all

[23:21] now if I didn't understand what I know

[23:24] about alcohol and and sleep I would

[23:26] think that too which is look when I have

[23:29] a night cap just before bed or two even

[23:32] though I don't wear them um I I may

[23:36] actually just fall asleep very easily

[23:39] and feels like I stay asleep very

[23:41] soundly across the night so it's a great

[23:44] sleep aid and it really helps me there

[23:46] are at least I would say three issues

[23:49] with alcohol the first is that alcohol

[23:51] is in a class of drugs that we call the

[23:54] sedatives and sedation is not sleep

[23:59] but when you take on board alcohol in

[24:01] the evening you mistake the former for

[24:03] the latter and you think it helps you

[24:05] fall asleep the second thing is that

[24:09] because it's

[24:11] sedation or actually it's probably

[24:12] related to sedation if I were to show

[24:15] you the electrical signature of your

[24:18] deep sleep when you're just sleeping

[24:21] naturally versus when you have alcohol

[24:23] in your system it's not really the same

[24:25] it's not a naturalistic form of deep s

[24:28] it mimics it it looks not too dissimilar

[24:31] but if I really do my analyses and I

[24:33] almost like that Pink Floyd album where

[24:35] I take the white light of electrical

[24:36] brain activity coming from your head as

[24:39] you're sleeping and split it apart into

[24:41] all of the different components there

[24:42] are some components that are no longer

[24:45] present or some that are abnormally

[24:47] present the second issue with alcohol is

[24:49] that it fragments your sleep so it will

[24:52] litter your sleep with all these

[24:54] punctuated Awakenings throughout the

[24:56] night the danger that is that many of

[24:59] those Awakenings with alcohol you don't

[25:01] remember because they're too

[25:04] brief but then you wake up the next day

[25:06] and you think well I didn't have a

[25:08] problem falling asleep I didn't have a

[25:10] problem staying asleep but I just I feel

[25:13] rough I just don't feel restored by my

[25:15] sleep and you don't add two and two

[25:19] together the final concern with alcohol

[25:21] is that it's quite a potent Blocker of

[25:24] your rapid eye movement sleep or REM

[25:26] sleep and in subsequent episodes we'll

[25:29] go into great detail as to the

[25:32] incredible learning and memory

[25:35] creativity benefits that come by way of

[25:37] REM sleep also it's essential for our

[25:40] emotional regulation and recalibrating

[25:43] our

[25:44] moods so for all of those reasons I

[25:48] would say two things first if you are

[25:51] struggling with sleep not feeling

[25:53] restored by your sleep keep in mind your

[25:56] alcohol intake and also just in general

[25:59] be mindful of that if you are thinking

[26:02] about your sleep and want to preserve it

[26:04] so much of what you just said resonates

[26:06] uh I confess that in my lifetime I've

[26:08] had periods of um pretty spectacular

[26:11] sleep I characterize myself as somebody

[26:15] that could fall asleep anywhere anytime

[26:18] but I've also experienced the extreme

[26:21] challenges of sleep and um and that

[26:24] relates to different things life

[26:25] circumstances Etc in fact recently I've

[26:27] had some challenges with sleep despite

[26:29] using the protocols that I and uh others

[26:33] suggest I hadn't heard some of the

[26:35] things that you're um referring to here

[26:38] and um middle of the night waking has

[26:40] become more of an issue I communicated

[26:42] this to uh former girlfriend of mine who

[26:46] um was uh I was in relationship with

[26:48] when I was a a junior Professor meaning

[26:51] before I got tenure and she said you

[26:54] don't remember you had a Andrew but I do

[26:57] you had a pattern back then of um after

[27:00] I would fall asleep you would continue

[27:02] working on your laptop probably on

[27:04] grants um and then I would fall asleep

[27:08] working and then according to her I

[27:10] would wake up in the middle of the night

[27:11] and work a little bit until I'd get

[27:13] tired again and then fall asleep and

[27:15] then this would repeat so um really

[27:18] stamping down the uh the associative

[27:21] learning element that you talked about

[27:22] before so that was probably the first

[27:24] period of time in my life in which I I

[27:27] created this um

[27:28] rather uh delerious Association of work

[27:32] in the middle of the night in bed right

[27:35] um and then more recently I've had the

[27:38] the uh experience of waking up probably

[27:40] due to these like daytime things that I

[27:42] I'm waking up in the middle of the night

[27:44] thinking about and now because of our

[27:46] discussion during the course of of

[27:48] recording this series I get out of bed

[27:50] after even 101 15 minutes um so that I

[27:53] can start to eliminate that Association

[27:56] and another piece is that I've always

[27:58] felt that when I get out of bed in the

[28:00] middle of the night because I can't

[28:01] sleep and I go to the sofa I often can

[28:03] sleep very well reason being proving

[28:06] right it's a control experiment proving

[28:08] that the location of sleep is uh the and

[28:12] the association of wakefulness at sleep

[28:14] in bed as opposed to on the sofa is is a

[28:16] clear component and this is in an

[28:18] environment that's of equal temperature

[28:20] I mean it's not a perfect experiment

[28:21] right um it's anakata as we say but I I

[28:24] think that the associative piece is oh

[28:27] so strong um for many people and so this

[28:30] is something to to really take seriously

[28:32] I love that notion of and people will

[28:34] often say I just get up I go to the

[28:36] couch or the sofa and that's where I'll

[28:38] wake up in the morning also they'll say

[28:41] when I travel and I go to a hotel room I

[28:44] just can sleep fine now for some people

[28:46] it's the inverse but for those people

[28:48] it's the contextual difference meaning

[28:51] the change of the environment is so

[28:54] unfamiliar that it has not been bound to

[28:57] Association of wakefulness it's related

[29:00] to sleep or at least the opportunity to

[29:02] sleep sometimes even I've heard from

[29:05] some people and there's no studies or

[29:07] data on this even turning yourself

[29:10] around now this is hard if you have a

[29:12] partner in bed but you just switch top

[29:15] to bottom of the bed and you take your

[29:17] pillow and you pull the duvet all the

[29:20] way down and you put the pillow at the

[29:21] opposite end where your feet used to be

[29:23] and you get into bed and even just

[29:25] looking around and sort of having a

[29:27] difference that alone is so subtle but

[29:30] it can make a real difference so again

[29:34] just keep these things in mind I know it

[29:36] sounds strange or this whole sort of get

[29:38] up get out of bed break the

[29:41] associate and we'll come on to something

[29:44] well actually I'll come on to it now

[29:45] because I think it's one of the

[29:46] unconventional tips and you mentioned it

[29:48] a lot of people say to me that all

[29:50] sounds great I the science makes sense I

[29:53] just don't it's dark it's kind of cold I

[29:57] really don't want to get out of bed so

[30:00] give me some

[30:01] Alternatives I think the the single best

[30:05] piece of unconventional sleep advice I

[30:08] can give you is do anything that gets

[30:12] your mind off

[30:14] itself the principal reason that if you

[30:17] look at insomnia as a physiological

[30:19] condition or current working model

[30:21] mechanistically of how insomnia um plays

[30:24] out is that you are in this state of

[30:28] almost low-level anxiety and you are

[30:32] somewhat stressed and when you go to

[30:35] sleep or you try to go to sleep or you

[30:37] wake back up and you try to get back to

[30:38] sleep you just have this Rolodex of

[30:42] anxiety in the modern world we are

[30:44] constantly on reception and very rarely

[30:47] do we do

[30:49] reflection and unfortunately for many of

[30:51] us and I've been guilty of this the only

[30:54] time we do reflection is when our head

[30:57] is placed on the pillow and we turn the

[30:59] light out and that is the last time you

[31:02] want to be doing reflection that's the

[31:04] worst moment and at that point I think

[31:07] everyone can empathize with the idea of

[31:11] you turn the light out you're under

[31:13] stress your mind goes to those few

[31:16] things in the darkness of night thoughts

[31:20] become almost 10 times worse than they

[31:23] do in the brigh of

[31:25] day and at that moment you start to

[31:28] ruminate when you ruminate you begin to

[31:32] catastrophize and when you catastrophize

[31:34] you're dead in the water for the next

[31:36] two hours so what do you do the problem

[31:39] is as I said your mind is on itself and

[31:43] it's going through these repeated Loops

[31:46] anything you can do for example you can

[31:49] do some kind of a meditation and I when

[31:52] I was researching data for my book some

[31:54] years ago I did look into meditation and

[31:57] I wasn't a meditator I was a hard-nosed

[31:59] scientist and didn't really kind of

[32:03] embrace with that notion or even that um

[32:07] that group of people but time and again

[32:10] I read paper after paper and the data

[32:12] was very strong and it was coming from

[32:14] research groups that I respected very

[32:16] much indeed so I thought well okay I

[32:19] should probably give this a try and that

[32:23] was 6 years ago and since then I now

[32:26] meditate for 10 minutes every single

[32:28] night before bed I do a guided

[32:30] meditation because I'm not particularly

[32:32] skilled so I use an app that moves me

[32:35] through that but you can do whatever you

[32:38] how whatever meditation you like that's

[32:41] one example the second example is you

[32:44] can do breathing methods because again

[32:46] you're focused on your breath and what

[32:49] are you not focused on your

[32:52] thoughts and so anything that will allow

[32:57] you to

[32:58] um

[32:59] explore some other Focus maybe it's a

[33:02] body scan where you start at the top of

[33:03] your head or you start at your feet and

[33:05] you work your way up and you just say

[33:07] you know moving through now my neck what

[33:10] Sensations am I feeling now into my

[33:13] shoulders moving down into my chest now

[33:16] I can feel the ends of my fingers am I

[33:19] sensing

[33:21] anything and when you start doing that

[33:23] or any of these types of things the next

[33:26] thing that you remember is your alarm

[33:28] going off in the morning because you got

[33:31] your mind off itself so I would say that

[33:34] that's probably one of the

[33:35] unconventional tips but let me come back

[33:36] to the conventional anything else I've

[33:40] probably missed out or being unclear

[33:41] about the um actually I should probably

[33:43] say one thing in terms of these not

[33:46] they're not tips I don't like the word I

[33:48] know you don't either or hacks or um

[33:51] these are protocols and they're

[33:53] well-informed scientific protocols in

[33:55] all of this discussion today

[33:58] you can get all of these things in place

[34:01] and still have problems with

[34:03] sleep the reason is because you may be

[34:06] suffering from a Sleep Disorder so the

[34:08] analogy would be let's say that I'm your

[34:10] athletic coach and you're a sports

[34:13] Superstar I can perfect everything I can

[34:15] perfect your your diet your supplements

[34:19] we can perfect your Technique we can

[34:21] perfect but if you've got a broken ankle

[34:26] none of those things are going to alter

[34:28] your performance right now you've got to

[34:30] get to a doctor and get that scen to and

[34:33] then we can come back to fine-tuning

[34:35] your performance it's the same with

[34:37] sleep if you've got a sleep disorder

[34:38] such as snoring sleep apnea or insomnia

[34:41] we need to get you to a doctor first and

[34:43] then only after that come back once

[34:45] you're resolved then we can start to

[34:48] optimize that's the only other thing I

[34:50] probably should mention yeah this is all

[34:52] very useful discussion because I think

[34:54] that um of course there will be those

[34:56] folks out there that just like what are

[34:59] they talking about I sleep so well at

[35:01] night you know consider yourself blessed

[35:02] many many people struggle with uh

[35:05] challenges with sleep and I think it's

[35:07] fair to say that sooner or later most

[35:10] everybody experiences some challenges

[35:12] with sleep for whatever reason you look

[35:13] at the statistics that's highly likely

[35:15] in your lifetime you are more than

[35:17] likely to go through either a period of

[35:19] challenging sleep or in fact about of

[35:22] insomnia I'd like to take a brief break

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[36:36] huberman you talked about alcohol I'm

[36:39] not a consumer of alcohol anymore um nor

[36:42] am I and it's not I it's not because I

[36:43] have anything against it yeah many

[36:45] people do enjoy it and um and know uh

[36:48] we're not calling judgment on on them I

[36:51] mean certainly much of the world enjoys

[36:53] uh alcohol could we talk a little bit

[36:54] more about um aside from demolishing

[36:58] REM sleep um you know do we know that

[37:03] alcohol causes these disruptions in

[37:05] sleep directly meaning by changing the

[37:07] um pattern of release of

[37:09] neurotransmitters like Gaba things of

[37:11] that sort or is this an indirect effect

[37:13] you know is this like through the gut

[37:15] microbiome that then impacts sleep um

[37:18] and the reason I ask is maybe we could

[37:20] get to some more

[37:21] specific uh dos and do not protocols so

[37:25] for instance if somebody wants to have a

[37:27] cocktail how close to sleep can they get

[37:30] and uh not diminish their rapid eye

[37:34] movement sleep too much you know because

[37:36] people are still going to want to drink

[37:38] um and with that said if people do have

[37:41] a couple of drinks and then they they go

[37:43] to sleep is there is there anything they

[37:45] can do prior to sleep to uh try and

[37:47] rescue um their some of their quality

[37:50] sleep great question so in terms of the

[37:53] mechanism it seems actually not to be

[37:56] the alcohol but some of the metabolic

[37:59] byproducts of alcohol we think that

[38:02] perhaps the main culprit may be some of

[38:04] the aldah highs that are the metabolic

[38:08] um separate consequences of alcohol

[38:11] metabolism you make a good point though

[38:14] in terms of the the the dose response

[38:18] timing curve

[38:20] how late or how early do I have to cut

[38:24] myself off from alcohol people have done

[38:26] those studies and they have found that

[38:27] even an afternoon single glass of wine

[38:31] if you measure sleep in the way that we

[38:33] measure it at my center with High

[38:34] Fidelity you can see compromises and

[38:38] impairments I wish I could tell you

[38:41] otherwise I would say that based on that

[38:44] data the principal protocol advice I

[38:47] would have for you is go to the pub in

[38:49] the morning that way by the time you're

[38:52] about to sleep the alcohol is out your

[38:53] system and you could no no I would never

[38:55] as a as a public scientist I would never

[38:58] Advocate necessarily for wanting I'm

[39:00] just kidding you but um that's that's

[39:03] sort of one of the unfortunate

[39:06] consequences there does seem to be an

[39:08] impact to say that there isn't is just

[39:11] me not being truthful about the data but

[39:15] again if

[39:16] you are think about the tradeoff here if

[39:20] you're going out or you're having

[39:21] friends over and you're going to make an

[39:24] incredible evening of memories and

[39:26] you're going to open a favorite bottle

[39:27] of wine and have a couple of glasses of

[39:29] wine is your sleep going to be

[39:31] compromised yes it is but maybe that's

[39:34] worth the tradeoff for that specific

[39:36] night I would just not wish you to and

[39:39] you've spoken a lot and so is our dear

[39:41] friend Peter and

[39:43] others there just doesn't seem to be any

[39:46] safe amount of alcohol um but I would

[39:50] say think about that trade-off simply

[39:53] however don't make it habit that you're

[39:55] doing it you know multiple nights a week

[39:58] or more that would probably be the

[40:00] advice

[40:02] great what about food and sleep um how

[40:07] close to sleep um is it okay to have a

[40:10] meal if you want to optimize your sleep

[40:14] um I I like to eat my final meal

[40:16] somewhere around

[40:18] 6:30 p.m. but and I go to sleep

[40:21] somewhere around 8:30 900 p.m. in an

[40:24] Ideal World sometimes I go to sleep a

[40:26] bit later uh sometimes I eat a little

[40:28] bit later it's just you know there's

[40:29] some variability with these but um put

[40:32] differently what is the relationship

[40:34] between food intake and Sleep Quality in

[40:37] terms of timing of food intake and then

[40:39] perhaps we can talk a little bit about

[40:41] um food

[40:42] macronutrients it's very interesting

[40:44] there was somewhat of a Dogma out there

[40:48] that we have to stop eating you know

[40:50] three or 4 hours before bed for optimal

[40:53] sleep if you look at the data the data

[40:55] is quite a spread no pun intended there

[40:58] is there are some people for whom that

[41:01] works very well and if they eat even two

[41:04] hours before bed they just get disrupted

[41:08] in terms of their sleep some of that is

[41:11] about people just feeling too full and

[41:14] not feeling comfortable other aspects

[41:17] are that when you become recumbent when

[41:19] you lie down you have a higher risk of

[41:23] gastric reflux coming back up and

[41:25] therefore you get heartburn and that's

[41:27] pretty miserable and people will

[41:28] describe that too by way of closer

[41:31] proximity of food intake relative to

[41:34] when you're falling asleep nevertheless

[41:36] if you look at the

[41:38] data and I I did a recent very deep dive

[41:41] on this personally myself about 12

[41:44] months ago it's not quite as Extreme as

[41:47] the Dogma makes out if you eat 2 hours

[41:51] before bed on average it doesn't seem to

[41:54] necessarily harm your sleep now that's

[41:56] very different than saying what is best

[41:58] to improve or enhance your sleep but the

[42:01] way these studies were designed it was

[42:03] looking at detriments they then went to

[42:06] 90 minutes before sleep onset and even

[42:09] there there didn't seem to be Market

[42:13] impermanence 60 Minutes you started to

[42:16] see maybe some signs but on average the

[42:19] effect size was somewhat weak but then

[42:21] when you get close to sort of 45 minutes

[42:23] or

[42:24] so then things did start to deteriorate

[42:29] I think it depends hugely on your

[42:31] chronotype and also just on your

[42:34] appetite Cadian Rhythm preferences too I

[42:38] am someone who I do not feel very hungry

[42:41] when I first wake up in the morning I

[42:43] don't feel very hungry throughout most

[42:45] of the day and I will onboard most of my

[42:48] calories

[42:50] probably

[42:52] in the hours probably in about a 4H hour

[42:56] period maybe less even 3-hour period and

[43:00] then I will cut myself off about 90

[43:03] minutes before sleep so I classically I

[43:07] would have been considered as you know

[43:10] violating this sleep dogma of of cutting

[43:13] yourself off at least three hours I

[43:14] think it's very personal though just

[43:17] experiment with it you will know the

[43:20] situation um as for macros and specific

[43:24] food

[43:25] components the data is a little bit

[43:27] mixed certainly what we know is that if

[43:30] you're eating a diet that is high in

[43:34] sugar and low in protein your sleep is

[43:40] worse why would that be the case well

[43:43] one of the reasons that we think is that

[43:45] if you onboard sugar it can be somewhat

[43:48] metabolically active and when it becomes

[43:51] metabolically active it can increase

[43:54] your body temperature your core body

[43:55] temperature even just for very subtly

[43:58] but that's enough to disrupt your sleep

[44:00] as we spoke about with

[44:02] temperature but I think in terms

[44:05] of really the you know what would be the

[44:09] ideal macron nutrient and even

[44:13] micronutrient um dietry recommendation

[44:15] that I would have for you I don't think

[44:17] we have enough data yet above and beyond

[44:20] that that statement um yeah yeah I I've

[44:25] experienced um when I eat a very low

[44:28] carbohydrate diet which I've

[44:30] experimented with in the past maybe even

[44:32] even full ketogenic diet for for brief

[44:34] periods of time although I'm an omnivore

[44:36] so I eat meat and eggs and I also eat

[44:38] starches pastas rice Etc um but we know

[44:43] based on beautiful work from for example

[44:45] Chris Palmer from from Harvard Medical

[44:48] School uh who is a guest on this podcast

[44:50] I listen to that it was great podcast

[44:52] yeah Chris is is spectacular and and U

[44:55] has advocated the exploration of

[44:58] ketogenic diets for the treatment of

[45:00] various psychiatric conditions not all

[45:02] but psychiatric conditions and and it

[45:04] seems and he agreed with me on this that

[45:07] when people go on very low starch very

[45:09] low carbohydrate diets that sometimes

[45:11] they can experience a bit of hypomania

[45:13] some people can and challenge this with

[45:16] sleep and um sometimes there are

[45:20] psychiatric reasons why um people stay

[45:24] on those diets anyway and then they have

[45:25] to do other things to encourage their

[45:27] sleep by their pharmacology or

[45:28] supplementation or some combination but

[45:31] I I can say anecdotally for myself if I

[45:34] if I don't eat starches for a extended

[45:37] amount of time a couple of days I find

[45:39] it very hard to get quality sleep as

[45:43] indicated by Sleep trackers um and uh

[45:47] and just uh sleep late latency to fall

[45:49] asleep is longer than it is ETC um so i'

[45:54] I've opted to eat most of my

[45:56] carbohydrates Ates later in the evening

[45:58] um which and violates you know every

[46:01] rule of you know eat your carbs early in

[46:02] the day and and and I think there are

[46:04] some data to support that eating

[46:05] carbohydrates early in the day may

[46:07] actually um have certain benefits for

[46:09] weight maintenance or weight loss so I

[46:10] realized that but those aren't my my

[46:12] goals at the moment weight maintenance

[46:14] yes weight loss no so I think um I

[46:17] certainly feel after eating a dinner

[46:19] that has a bit more starch pasta rice

[46:22] these things of that sort and a little

[46:24] bit lower protein as opposed to the

[46:25] inverse like eating a couple couple of

[46:27] riy steaks and a salad but no starch

[46:30] that um my sleep is substantially better

[46:34] um and I always uh attributed that to

[46:37] the relationship between some of the

[46:39] starches and the

[46:40] tryptophan serotonin pathway yeah there

[46:42] is some data on that with the

[46:44] carbohydrate intake in the evening and

[46:47] of course that that tryptophan and that

[46:50] carbohydrate intake um will contain the

[46:53] precursor ingredients to something else

[46:56] that we've spoken about which is

[46:57] melatonin and so that may actually help

[47:00] healthily boost that melatonin signal

[47:02] and there's a little bit of data on that

[47:04] to supported

[47:05] to we also did a study where we um we

[47:09] were looking at night to night to night

[47:11] sleep and carbohydrate intake the next

[47:13] day and it did seem to support what

[47:16] you're describing in terms of some of

[47:18] the carbohydrate benefits we also found

[47:20] a strange result that was almost the

[47:23] opposite prediction that we made

[47:25] carbohydrate intake in the morning to

[47:28] equally help people wake up and we were

[47:31] a little bit uncertain as to why but

[47:33] we're going to go into more detail the

[47:36] reason that you mentioned

[47:38] the the suggestion of not take on carbs

[47:41] in the evening is in part based on the

[47:44] evidence that your body's ability to

[47:47] dispose of sugar and obviously when

[47:50] you're eating carbohydrate you can have

[47:52] a higher um Spike of sugar now that in

[47:55] part depends on what you're eating with

[47:57] that carbohydrate and also of course the

[48:00] nature of that carbohydrate whether it's

[48:01] simple or whether it's complex whether

[48:03] it's simple sugars versus you know

[48:06] complex more um starchy uh carbohydrate

[48:10] but the idea is that your body even if

[48:13] you were to eat the same amount of

[48:15] carbohydrate in the morning in the

[48:17] afternoon or in the evening same

[48:20] carbohydrate dose and type but your

[48:22] body's ability to dispose of that

[48:25] without having excessive spikes of

[48:27] glucose is worse in the evening better

[48:29] in the morning I.E if you're concerned

[48:32] about your blood sugar um and your

[48:34] metabolic Health maybe that's what you

[48:36] should do I think that that data is

[48:39] unclear on the basis of if you are um

[48:44] glycemic normal meaning that you

[48:46] currently do not have signs of type two

[48:48] two diabetes or you're not pre-diabetic

[48:51] then that may not necessarily be the

[48:52] case and so I think that's why it could

[48:54] be you know beneficial for you and I

[48:56] know that you've um you think deeply

[48:58] about that and and um I've even been

[49:01] tracking blood sugar as well I don't

[49:02] have any signs of that but I'm just

[49:04] fascinated by some of that data and how

[49:06] it interacts with my sleep because I'm a

[49:08] a sleep nerd so I think right now we

[49:10] just don't have plentiful data to

[49:13] recommend a particular sleep quote

[49:15] unquote diet for improved optimization I

[49:19] would say though that we can be a little

[49:22] bit more relaxed about the timing of our

[49:24] food earlier you mentioned C caffeine

[49:27] and caffeine is a topic that we get into

[49:30] into substantial depth in episode three

[49:33] but there and now I uh I will emphasize

[49:37] that caffeine is the most commonly used

[49:40] drug worldwide I think the statistic

[49:43] says that 90 plus perent of adults

[49:46] consume caffeinated

[49:48] beverages every day which is remarkable

[49:51] and a few years back I recall there was

[49:52] an article in The Economist that charted

[49:54] the country's for which the caffeine

[49:57] consumption was highest and way out on

[50:01] the peak Peak peak of was almost uh

[50:05] triple or quadruple what other what the

[50:08] second place country um consumed each

[50:13] day was can you guess the country that

[50:15] consumes the most caffeine could be tea

[50:17] coffee any form I'm going to suggest

[50:19] it's a Scandinavian country no but uh

[50:22] but they're they're up they're up there

[50:24] it was Switzerland now I don't know if

[50:26] that's still the case but apparently the

[50:28] the reason I went I was thinking it was

[50:30] because I've seen the graph I was

[50:31] thinking it was Sweden but Scandinavian

[50:34] and if I have that wrong um certainly

[50:36] someone will put it in the the comments

[50:37] on YouTube I recall the Swiss drink so

[50:41] much caffeine they have uh a lot to

[50:44] think about so I love caffeine I drink

[50:47] black coffee black espresso and Y Bronte

[50:50] um I love Yerba Monte been drinking it

[50:52] since I was a little one um because of

[50:55] the argentines in my family um and I

[50:57] drink it in the early part of the day

[50:59] typically um a couple hours after waking

[51:02] or so I'll have my first um sip of

[51:04] caffeine and then I try to stop drinking

[51:07] caffeine somewhere around noon or 1 p.m.

[51:10] occasionally I'll have a shot or two of

[51:12] a espresso in the early afternoon if

[51:14] there's important work to be done and I

[51:16] need to do that but I I've noticed that

[51:18] even that can alter my sleep in ways

[51:21] that that I don't like but the afternoon

[51:23] coffee for some reason tastes so much

[51:24] better than the morning coffee for me I

[51:26] don't know what it is so it's coffee

[51:28] year bate packed early into the day and

[51:31] a lot of it for me yeah I have a high

[51:33] tolerance for it um but then I let it

[51:37] taper is

[51:39] that an optimal Contour of caffeine

[51:42] intake um would Zero caffeine be better

[51:44] if someone's just really committed to

[51:45] sleep and they don't like caffeine would

[51:47] zero be better than any and what about

[51:50] that afternoon coffee or tea containing

[51:54] caffeine I mean how disruptive is it for

[51:57] sleep so the profile that you describe

[52:00] which is high peak early on and first

[52:03] thing when you wake up and then tapering

[52:04] off nicely down into the sort of early

[52:08] afternoon ideal that sounds great to me

[52:11] as for that afternoon coffee it really

[52:14] depends again on when you are expecting

[52:17] to go to sleep now for someone like you

[52:20] I would say I would love to look at

[52:22] abstaining from that or just switching

[52:24] it out to if you're using you know these

[52:27] pods or however you're Brewing it let's

[52:29] just switch it out and do an experiment

[52:31] for two weeks and we will look to see

[52:35] how much is that afternoon coffee really

[52:38] impacting your sleep and will track your

[52:39] sleep with some degree of High Fidelity

[52:41] with a

[52:43] wearable and let's test that hypothesis

[52:46] because you go to sleep quite early you

[52:48] are an early bird maybe bordering on an

[52:52] extreme um early bird and we'll speak

[52:54] about um or we have spoken about those

[52:58] different flavors of

[53:00] chronotype I would prefer you not to be

[53:05] having that caffeine in the afternoon

[53:08] based on how early you go to sleep and I

[53:11] mention that preference because of what

[53:13] you described regarding your sleep

[53:17] maintenance insomnia one of the issues

[53:19] with caffeine is that not only can it

[53:21] make it more difficult for you to fall

[53:24] asleep which you don't have in part

[53:26] because if you're waking up quite

[53:28] frequently throughout the night and

[53:29] struggling to get back to sleep you're

[53:31] going to be carrying a sleep debt into

[53:34] every night and that debt continues to

[53:36] grow and it's almost like compounding

[53:38] interest on a loan so you will not have

[53:40] a problem falling asleep in fact

[53:43] sometimes the speed with which people

[53:44] fall asleep and some of these uh sleep

[53:46] trackers will almost penalize you for

[53:50] falling asleep too quickly is because in

[53:53] sleep science and clinical sleep

[53:54] medicine if your it should take you

[53:57] somewhere you know healthy sleep onset

[54:00] you know 5 to 15 20 minutes but if you

[54:06] put your head on the pillow and you turn

[54:08] off the light and within a minute or so

[54:10] you're dead to the world and you're gone

[54:13] I'm exactly I'm worried that you're a

[54:15] carrying a sleep dead now not

[54:17] necessarily but I'm I would like to

[54:19] explore it um with you and then I would

[54:22] say even if you can fall asleep

[54:24] fine this factor of waking up in the

[54:27] middle of the night is also related to

[54:30] caffeine why because caffeine not only

[54:33] can make it harder to fall asleep not

[54:35] your problem but it keeps you out of

[54:38] that deep deep sleep and it puts you

[54:40] into a more shallow state of nonrapid ey

[54:44] movement sleep and when you are in this

[54:46] shallow State it's a easier for you to

[54:50] be woken up but be and I think more of

[54:54] the problem it's hard harder for you to

[54:57] fall back asleep because your brain

[54:59] doesn't necessarily want to go back down

[55:01] into that deep sleep and nor has it come

[55:04] up out of that deep sleep so you're not

[55:06] in that wonderful glorious thick

[55:09] triy sort of sleepy State when you wake

[55:12] up you go to the restroom you come back

[55:14] and you just know this is going to be

[55:16] great I'm as as long as I can fumble my

[55:18] way back to my mattress I'm going to be

[55:20] asleep within another two minutes going

[55:22] back to it whereas for you you probably

[55:24] wake up and you feel pretty Wide Awake I

[55:26] would like to see what happens when we

[55:28] negate that afternoon coffee on the

[55:30] frequency and the duration of those

[55:33] middle of the night Awakenings for you

[55:35] yeah I'm definitely making the effort to

[55:37] avoid caffeine intake in the afternoon

[55:39] and I think um already starting to see

[55:42] some of the positive benefits of doing

[55:44] that great as evidenced by the days that

[55:46] I consume caffeine in the afternoon and

[55:48] experience the the deficits it's a real

[55:51] thing and I I believe you've um about

[55:54] the numbers uh on a different podcast

[55:56] previously could talk a little bit about

[55:58] the metabolism of caffeine and um and

[56:01] maybe even some of the variations that

[56:02] exist between people in terms of the

[56:05] metabolic U regulation of caffeine so

[56:07] how long let's say uh drink a standard

[56:10] cup of coffee or a cuple of espresso and

[56:11] it has a gosh I don't know 150

[56:14] milligrams of caffeine is that 200 could

[56:17] 150 200 let's say 200 because certainly

[56:20] uh you know a barista these days is

[56:23] going to draw a a beverage over index

[56:26] yeah so let's say 200 milligrams and and

[56:28] somebody consumes that after lunch at uh

[56:31] 100 p.m. and their bedtime is let's

[56:34] let's make them more conventional than I

[56:36] uh somewhere between 10: and 11: p.m.

[56:39] yeah okay so they're they're about 10 9

[56:42] to 10 hours out from their bedtime

[56:44] they're having a nice strong quote

[56:45] unquote nice strong cup of coffee after

[56:48] lunch um what what does that look like

[56:51] in terms of their biochemistry and and

[56:54] impact on sleep so caffeine has

[56:56] something that we call a halflife of

[56:59] about 5 to 6 hours meaning that after 5

[57:02] to 6 hours about 50% of that caffeine is

[57:05] still circulating in your bloodstream

[57:07] and thus your brain that means that

[57:10] caffeine has a quarter life of somewhere

[57:13] between 10 to 12 hours now this is on

[57:16] average and we'll come back to

[57:19] variations but think of it this way if

[57:21] you're taking a cup of coffee like you

[57:24] described there at midday and then

[57:26] you're going to bed at let's say 11: or

[57:30] midnight that would be the equivalent

[57:32] based on what I've just told you the

[57:34] quarter life of getting yourself into

[57:36] bed and just before you took yourself

[57:38] into bed you Swig a quarter of a cup of

[57:40] coffee and you H for a good night of

[57:42] sleep and the chances are that it it may

[57:45] not happen now again that's a little bit

[57:48] sort of hyperbolic as a as a statement

[57:50] but just try to conceptualize it in that

[57:53] way you would never think about taking

[57:55] off on you know a last quarter cup of

[57:59] coffee just before you put your eye mask

[58:02] on no but I have some friends and um

[58:05] somebody actually who works with the

[58:06] podcast team and we'll go out to dinner

[58:08] as a team when we're on the road and

[58:10] he'll order like a big coffee right

[58:12] after a 900 p.m. dinner and I was just

[58:15] like can you sleep on like oh yeah no

[58:17] problem and that no problem is in part

[58:20] this I don't have an issue with falling

[58:22] asleep but if we were to based on the

[58:24] data map there electrical brain activity

[58:28] you would be able to see this reduction

[58:31] in the deep non-rm sleep and it can

[58:35] reduce it if you look at the data

[58:36] somewhere between 15 to 20% now for me

[58:40] to reduce your deep sleep by 15 to 20% I

[58:45] would probably have to age you by about

[58:47] 20 to 22 years or you could just do it

[58:51] every night with a late night coffee

[58:54] should you should you wish so again I've

[58:57] and maybe we'll speak about this in in

[59:00] later episodes I have changed my mind on

[59:02] caffeine I think morning caffeine use or

[59:05] coffee I should say being more specific

[59:08] is fine because I think there are health

[59:09] benefits and we can go into in

[59:11] subsequent episodes why coffee and the

[59:14] coffee be in itself can provide those

[59:16] benefits so I've become a little bit

[59:18] more bullish on morning

[59:21] caffeine but evening caffeine I just

[59:25] think it's the data is just not

[59:27] supportive even if you are and there are

[59:29] variations and you were very um astute

[59:32] in your question some people I said on

[59:35] average caffeine has a half life of

[59:37] about 5 to six hours for some people

[59:40] it's quicker and for other people it's

[59:42] slower why is that it's based on a gene

[59:45] and we know the gene it's a gene that is

[59:48] part of a set of liver enzymes and the

[59:51] gene is called the

[59:53] cyp1 A2 Gene

[59:56] and there are variations in that Gene

[59:59] what we call polymorphisms and you can

[1:00:01] do these genetic tests that you can buy

[1:00:03] these kits and they all probably tell

[1:00:04] you which you are are you sensitive or

[1:00:06] you're not sensitive you probably

[1:00:08] already know and so some people will not

[1:00:12] be as sensitive and therefore they can

[1:00:14] have a more compressed time frame of a

[1:00:17] halflife because it's moving out of

[1:00:19] their system in a quicker manner so

[1:00:21] again I'm not trying to be skir

[1:00:23] mongering I think you can have coffeee

[1:00:24] in the morning and you'll be just fine

[1:00:27] that late night coffee I would I would

[1:00:30] like to see you obviate that if you are

[1:00:32] someone who's doing it and the afternoon

[1:00:34] coffee sounds like a you know maybe only

[1:00:37] every once in a while and try and make

[1:00:39] it mostly decaf or decaf for that matter

[1:00:41] if it's really just for the taste yeah

[1:00:43] if it's just for the taste go decaf if

[1:00:45] it's not I understand that in some ways

[1:00:47] what I'm talking about is the ideal

[1:00:49] world and drum roll it turns out that

[1:00:52] most of us don't live in that we live in

[1:00:53] this thing called the real world

[1:00:56] and so if you are facing a circumstance

[1:00:58] where if you're under pressure at work

[1:01:00] or if you're high performing athlete and

[1:01:02] this is it this is the event this is you

[1:01:04] it's all in a think understand that you

[1:01:07] you are going to sacrifice some sleep at

[1:01:09] night but maybe that sacrifice is well

[1:01:11] worth it so again I'm very open-minded

[1:01:13] I'm not trying to be um simply you know

[1:01:17] too rigid with this I want to take a

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[1:02:23] huberman so you've talked about alcohol

[1:02:26] and its effects on sleep you've talked

[1:02:27] about caffeine its effects on sleep and

[1:02:29] we talked about food and its effects on

[1:02:31] sleep what about THC and

[1:02:35] CBD sometimes referred to more uh

[1:02:38] generally as cannabis and you know it's

[1:02:40] interesting you know gosh when I was

[1:02:42] growing up um you

[1:02:44] know cannabis was illegal um nowadays

[1:02:48] it's um either legal or tolerated or

[1:02:52] decriminalized in many places not all

[1:02:55] but I I would would say there's been a

[1:02:56] um a a tide shift in terms of um

[1:03:01] cannabis meaning that many

[1:03:03] people consume cannabis who are um

[1:03:07] consuming it legally and consume it for

[1:03:09] a lot of reasons that other people

[1:03:12] consume alcohol in you know a sedative

[1:03:15] effect a slight hypnotic effect I mean

[1:03:17] you know the actual definition of what

[1:03:19] these drugs do it goes by certain terms

[1:03:20] in the psychiatric literature of course

[1:03:22] but but in order to quote unquote mellow

[1:03:24] out to feel more relx to reduce their

[1:03:27] anxiety um it's it's far and away

[1:03:29] different than when I was growing up

[1:03:31] where I me you would get into a lot of

[1:03:32] trouble uh if you were caught um smoking

[1:03:35] a joint or um taking a bong rip in the

[1:03:39] middle of the day but not and I realize

[1:03:41] most people aren't doing that at work I

[1:03:42] guess it depends on where you work um

[1:03:45] but it you know Edibles tinctures I mean

[1:03:48] the the consumption of THC and CBD is is

[1:03:51] quite um quite robust in a lot of places

[1:03:54] so um with all the issues of legality

[1:03:58] and the fact that people who young

[1:03:59] people um should not be consuming them

[1:04:02] me people 18 and younger not just for

[1:04:04] legal reasons but the brain is still

[1:04:06] developing um what is the story with THC

[1:04:10] CBD cannabis edibl smoked uh tinctures

[1:04:15] on sleep

[1:04:17] specifically it's very interesting if

[1:04:19] you look firstly at the motivational

[1:04:21] reasons why people use

[1:04:24] cannabis based on

[1:04:25] [Music]

[1:04:26] the published study somewhere in the top

[1:04:29] two

[1:04:31] reasons sleep to fall and stay asleep

[1:04:34] fall asleep and stay asleep obviously

[1:04:36] usually the principle first reason is

[1:04:38] just to get high and have the experience

[1:04:40] and the pleasure of being high if that's

[1:04:42] what sort of floats your um floats your

[1:04:45] train floats your train but certainly

[1:04:46] it's you know sleep um as and what we

[1:04:50] call a hypnotic to put you asleep from

[1:04:52] um the Greek derivative of the God for

[1:04:54] for sleep that is high among the reasons

[1:04:58] that people will

[1:04:59] use we currently don't recommend it and

[1:05:03] here is why certainly THC helps you fall

[1:05:06] asleep

[1:05:07] faster very clear in the data the

[1:05:11] problem is that first you start to

[1:05:13] develop a tolerance and to get that same

[1:05:16] sleep onset benefit you need to get use

[1:05:20] I should say a higher dose so you start

[1:05:22] to develop dependency and your dose

[1:05:24] regimen starts to

[1:05:26] increase the second issue with THC is

[1:05:29] that it's very good at blocking your

[1:05:31] dream sleep your REM sleep in fact many

[1:05:35] people when they come and they tell me

[1:05:37] look I was a heavy cannabis user even a

[1:05:39] light cannabis user for some time and

[1:05:41] then I stopped using and one of the

[1:05:43] strangest things happened to me I just

[1:05:46] started to have the most wild Vivid

[1:05:49] crazy dreams and I didn't know what was

[1:05:52] going on and it's a very simple

[1:05:54] explanation as you've been using your

[1:05:58] brain has been compromised in the amount

[1:06:01] of REM sleep it's been getting and

[1:06:03] you've been building up chronically a

[1:06:06] REM sleep debt and your brain is smart

[1:06:10] in the sense that it does try to clock

[1:06:13] to some degree a counter of how much REM

[1:06:16] sleep you've lost and many people will

[1:06:19] say yeah I don't really remember my

[1:06:20] dreams when I'm using but when they stop

[1:06:23] the brain finally because it's been

[1:06:25] cleansed of the thing that's the

[1:06:26] roadblock to REM sleep not only did they

[1:06:30] go back to having the normal amount of

[1:06:32] REM sleep that people would have they

[1:06:35] have that plus they have what we call a

[1:06:37] REM sleep rebound which is even more and

[1:06:40] more intense REM sleep which leads to

[1:06:43] more intense dreaming so it's a very I

[1:06:46] suspect there's a lot of people who've

[1:06:48] had that experience listening if they

[1:06:49] have been users and they've stopped so

[1:06:52] that's the second reason we don't

[1:06:53] Advocate it the third third reason is

[1:06:56] that when you stop using you also go or

[1:07:00] go through a very vicious insomnia

[1:07:04] withdrawal syndrome often many people

[1:07:06] will do now that depends on you know how

[1:07:08] much you've been using for how long

[1:07:10] you've been

[1:07:11] using if you look at the data and by the

[1:07:14] way part of the um clinical diagnostic

[1:07:17] the psychiatric diagnostic um

[1:07:20] description of cannabis withdrawal is

[1:07:23] insomnia that's how reliable this

[1:07:26] insomnia problem is when you come off

[1:07:30] cannabis and if you look at the data the

[1:07:33] one of the main reasons that people

[1:07:35] relapse and start using cannabis again

[1:07:38] even though they don't want to is

[1:07:40] because they can't deal with the

[1:07:42] insomnia that withdrawal has given them

[1:07:45] so you don't want to get into that

[1:07:47] vicious

[1:07:49] cycle should you wish again it's your

[1:07:52] choice um so THC I think is not to be

[1:07:57] advised right now CBD is interesting I

[1:08:01] don't think there's enough data yet for

[1:08:03] us to have a very strong opinion but I

[1:08:05] can at least offer mine the data so far

[1:08:08] is a little bit mixed in what we call

[1:08:11] the effect size in other words how

[1:08:13] reliable and how powerful is the benefit

[1:08:15] of CBD on sleep but it does seem to have

[1:08:18] some

[1:08:20] benefit what's interesting is that it

[1:08:22] doesn't seem to have the detriments that

[1:08:23] I just described for or

[1:08:27] THC you've got to be looking at the data

[1:08:30] a little bit careful with

[1:08:32] CBD it has what's called a u-shape

[1:08:35] function to it which is that if you're

[1:08:37] taking too little and again I really I'm

[1:08:41] so mindful of not trying to be okay here

[1:08:44] are the numbers but if you look at them

[1:08:46] I would say you know kind of cross your

[1:08:49] eyes squint your eyes maybe less than 25

[1:08:54] migr you run into the danger of CBD

[1:08:57] being wake

[1:08:59] promoting rather than sleep promoting

[1:09:02] but once you get past if you look is 50

[1:09:05] milligrams and above then you start to

[1:09:08] go in the opposite direction where it

[1:09:10] seems to be sleep

[1:09:12] promoting and I mention that just

[1:09:14] because at least here in the United

[1:09:16] States and in many places in the

[1:09:18] world that industry is not regulated so

[1:09:21] it may say 50 milligrams on the bottle

[1:09:25] you don't really know now some of those

[1:09:28] companies will have what's called

[1:09:29] third-party Laboratory Testing where

[1:09:31] they'll send it out and you can scan a

[1:09:33] qri code and you can look at an

[1:09:35] independent laboratory that tested it

[1:09:36] and show you the p p uh purity of it so

[1:09:39] that may be one way to

[1:09:40] go so CBD I think has some favorable

[1:09:45] evidence right now if that's the case

[1:09:47] let's just assume that you and I speak

[1:09:49] in another five years time and there's

[1:09:51] really good data now for this what could

[1:09:54] be the mechanisms I think there's at

[1:09:57] least there's probably at least two

[1:09:59] maybe three mechanisms the first is an

[1:10:02] indirect mechanism CBD has been

[1:10:05] demonstrated very nicely in some

[1:10:07] fantastic studies to be an

[1:10:10] anotic which is a fancy term for saying

[1:10:13] it reduces down your anxiety and earlier

[1:10:15] you and I discussed that anxiety and

[1:10:18] stress is one of the things that will

[1:10:20] keep you awake so indirectly it removes

[1:10:24] this kind of gate that is preventing you

[1:10:28] from moving down the Royal Road of sleep

[1:10:31] and it opens back up the gate because

[1:10:33] it's remove that gate mechanism which is

[1:10:36] high anxiety and by way of being an

[1:10:38] anxiolytic IT soften that anxiety and

[1:10:41] it's easier for you to fall asleep I

[1:10:42] think that's probably the principal

[1:10:44] mechanistic bet I would have right now

[1:10:47] another indirect

[1:10:49] mechanism if you look at some of the

[1:10:50] studies in rats and we do um human work

[1:10:53] at my sleep center so we don't do animal

[1:10:56] studies but if you look at the data in

[1:10:58] the

[1:10:58] rats CBD can be

[1:11:02] hypothermic which means that it drops

[1:11:04] your core body temperature and just as

[1:11:06] we spoke about in earlier in this

[1:11:08] episode you need to drop your body

[1:11:10] temperature to get to sleep so I think

[1:11:12] that's the second reason I think the

[1:11:14] third reason is that it could have a

[1:11:16] direct sleep promoting

[1:11:19] mechanism I think it's unclear right now

[1:11:21] exactly how it's interacting with the

[1:11:23] Sleep Machinery of the brain we've got

[1:11:24] some hypotheses the danger is again it's

[1:11:27] just not a well-regulated substance so I

[1:11:30] am actually just um full disclosure I'm

[1:11:32] working with a company in the United

[1:11:35] Kingdom uh in collaboration with um

[1:11:38] King's College and The Institute of

[1:11:40] Psychiatry there to see if we can create

[1:11:44] an analog a clean analog of CBD but I

[1:11:47] think the potential upside of it not

[1:11:50] just for sleep but for a number of

[1:11:52] different psychiatric conditions like

[1:11:54] anxiety

[1:11:55] um could be beneficial so I would say

[1:11:58] that that's right now the the sort of

[1:12:00] the skinny on THC and and CBD okay so

[1:12:03] just to make sure that I have the basic

[1:12:07] list of sleep hygiene factors correct I

[1:12:11] have regularity is King yep light and

[1:12:16] dark meaning that one should optimize or

[1:12:19] at least seek to optimize their exposure

[1:12:21] to light in the morning and throughout

[1:12:24] the day and in the evening to make

[1:12:26] things dim and dark yes temperature and

[1:12:30] there you have a a little um it's not a

[1:12:32] montra but what is it it's a warm up to

[1:12:36] cool down to fall asleep and then it's

[1:12:39] stay cool like Fonzi stay cool to stay

[1:12:44] asleep and then warm up to wake up yep

[1:12:47] and we will come on to that I think in a

[1:12:49] little while again then there's walk it

[1:12:50] out which is if I understand correctly

[1:12:53] if you're trying to fall asleep or fall

[1:12:55] back asleep and it's taking you longer

[1:12:57] than about 20 25 minutes you should just

[1:12:59] get out of bed and go elsewhere in the

[1:13:01] house do something else maybe even lie

[1:13:02] down on a different surface in the house

[1:13:04] to try and see if you can sleep there

[1:13:06] but don't stay in bed don't create a

[1:13:07] parir Association of wakefulness and

[1:13:10] your bed because that can lead to

[1:13:12] problems in subsequent nights yeah and I

[1:13:14] would only say that try to resist if you

[1:13:16] can if you really want your bedroom to

[1:13:18] be the place where you now become

[1:13:20] consistently asleep try not to start

[1:13:22] sleeping in some other location

[1:13:25] consistently because then all of a

[1:13:26] sudden you bond that with good sleep and

[1:13:29] you unbuckle this notion that we're

[1:13:32] trying to relearn which is know your

[1:13:34] bedroom is the place of sleep so it's

[1:13:37] fine to go elsewhere try to stay awake

[1:13:39] and force yourself to stay awake until

[1:13:41] you are absolutely sleepy then go back

[1:13:43] to bed okay and then we discussed

[1:13:46] alcohol food caffeine and THC CBD AKA

[1:13:52] cannabis and with respect to alcohol

[1:13:55] it's clear that none is best if you're

[1:13:58] going to have

[1:13:59] some uh you don't want to drink too

[1:14:01] early in the day but you don't want to

[1:14:02] drink too much or too close to bedtime

[1:14:04] because it can disrupt rapid eye

[1:14:05] movement sleep food uh seems that

[1:14:08] creating some sort of buffer between the

[1:14:10] uh your last bite of food and uh your to

[1:14:13] bedtime by anyway somewhere between you

[1:14:16] know maybe 2 three hours but for some

[1:14:18] people it'll be more like 90 minutes and

[1:14:19] of course that's going to depend on the

[1:14:21] size of the meal Etc but eating a big

[1:14:23] meal and then going straight to bed

[1:14:25] probably not a good

[1:14:26] idea caffeine has this long halflife so

[1:14:30] if you're going to indulge which I

[1:14:32] do do so early in the

[1:14:35] day beware the afternoon caffeine yeah

[1:14:39] do the hubman tapa is what I'm going to

[1:14:41] call it right now which is not

[1:14:42] interpretive dense it's simply the

[1:14:44] caffeine tape and then um THC CBD uh

[1:14:47] does nothing good for your sleep

[1:14:50] architecture although some people have

[1:14:52] the uh impression that it is good for

[1:14:54] their sleep because it makes it easier

[1:14:55] for them to fall asleep but what they

[1:14:56] are unaware of is that it is disrupting

[1:14:59] the quality and architecture of the

[1:15:01] different stages of sleep in ways that

[1:15:03] are not serving people well that seems

[1:15:06] to be the case for THC and I think CBD

[1:15:09] you

[1:15:10] know has promise and research must try

[1:15:13] harder including my own and you um very

[1:15:18] uh kindly emphasize that you're not

[1:15:20] telling people what to do they just

[1:15:21] should know what they're doing so that

[1:15:23] they can make uh changes uh if they so

[1:15:25] choose that's right I would always say

[1:15:28] that um I'm not trying to be a medical

[1:15:30] doctor any advice that I give is simply

[1:15:33] scientifically descriptive advice it's

[1:15:35] not medically prescriptive nor lifestyle

[1:15:38] prescriptive advice I'm smiling because

[1:15:40] what I always say is um I'm a scientist

[1:15:42] not a physician so I don't prescribe

[1:15:45] anything but I profess lots of things so

[1:15:47] or as my good friend who's a musician

[1:15:49] Tim Armstrong says I'm not a cop that's

[1:15:52] right so so do what you want um

[1:15:55] okay what a wonderful list to leap off

[1:15:59] into the unconventional and more

[1:16:02] advanced tools for Sleep enhancement so

[1:16:05] um let's go there so I think many people

[1:16:09] may have heard of some of the

[1:16:11] conventional but what about the

[1:16:12] unconventional I would probably offer

[1:16:15] five or six the first one I would say is

[1:16:19] that if you are struggling with sleep

[1:16:20] and you have had a bad night of sleep

[1:16:24] the first first recommendation is do

[1:16:27] nothing and what I mean by that is if

[1:16:30] you've had a bad night of sleep you're

[1:16:31] awake for 3 hours do not sleep in any

[1:16:36] later into the morning do not go to bed

[1:16:40] any

[1:16:41] earlier do not increase your caffeine

[1:16:44] intake to try to offset it and do not

[1:16:47] nap during the day why am I telling you

[1:16:50] those

[1:16:50] things if you wake up later that

[1:16:54] following morning

[1:16:55] your adenosine clock that we spoking

[1:16:58] about this building up of sleepiness

[1:17:00] that happens when we wake up is going to

[1:17:03] start later in the day so when it comes

[1:17:06] time for you to fall asleep at what

[1:17:08] would then be the next night at your

[1:17:10] normal time you're not going to feel as

[1:17:13] sleepy why because you woke up that much

[1:17:16] later and you're setting yourself up for

[1:17:18] failure again equally don't go to bed

[1:17:22] any earlier if you have become a

[1:17:24] customed and your brain has and your

[1:17:26] Cadian clock has become accustomed to

[1:17:28] going to bed at a certain time and

[1:17:29] hopefully you're doing it regularly then

[1:17:31] getting into bed two or 3 hours early

[1:17:34] has the danger it's not a certainty but

[1:17:36] a danger of you then getting into bed

[1:17:38] and thinking well I'm I know I had a bad

[1:17:41] night of sleep last night but I still

[1:17:42] can't fall asleep straight away so now

[1:17:45] you're spending another 90 minutes in

[1:17:46] bed at the beginning because you've gone

[1:17:48] to bed 90 minutes earlier thinking it's

[1:17:50] a good idea to compensate don't do that

[1:17:52] either hold out even if you do feel

[1:17:55] tired my recommendation would be after

[1:17:58] that bad night of sleep hold out for as

[1:18:00] long as you can as close to your natural

[1:18:03] bedtime as possible then go to sleep and

[1:18:06] you'll give yourself highest chance of

[1:18:08] success don't over caffeinate that's the

[1:18:10] obvious one follow the beautiful hubman

[1:18:13] taper and then obviously try not to

[1:18:16] compensate with a nap why because that

[1:18:19] nap as happens when we sleep is going to

[1:18:22] remove some of that sleepiness that pene

[1:18:25] and once again you get into bed and

[1:18:28] you're not as sleepy as you would

[1:18:29] naturally be so you again go through a

[1:18:31] bad night cuz you're struggling to sleep

[1:18:33] or you wake up and you can't get back

[1:18:36] because you've got less weight of

[1:18:38] sleepiness on your shoulders due to the

[1:18:40] nap that happened earlier so I know it's

[1:18:43] hard but I would say when the alarm goes

[1:18:45] off after a bad night you just think I

[1:18:47] do not want to get up it's been such a

[1:18:49] rough night I know it's a shortterm gain

[1:18:53] but trust me it's a long-term loss

[1:18:56] because you're going to then just get

[1:18:58] into this vicious cycle so that's the

[1:19:00] first unconventional tip the can I just

[1:19:02] pause you for a second I I'm a little

[1:19:04] wide-eyed over here because

[1:19:06] um I did not know any of that typically

[1:19:10] if I get a poor night sleep I'll do

[1:19:11] whatever I can to recover that sleep um

[1:19:14] take a nap I'll do you know I'll adjust

[1:19:16] my to bedtime the next evening um so I

[1:19:20] hope everyone is paying uh careful

[1:19:22] attention to what Matt just said I mean

[1:19:25] the that's a important list because I

[1:19:27] think one of the very common things is

[1:19:29] for people to just not get a great

[1:19:30] night's sleep and I think most people

[1:19:32] think okay I'll drink a little more

[1:19:33] caffeine I will um go to bed a little

[1:19:36] earlier tonight you know maybe catch a

[1:19:38] nap in the afternoon this kind of thing

[1:19:40] um and I would have thought that too and

[1:19:42] maybe even suggested that and if you

[1:19:45] listen to the first episode and where we

[1:19:46] you know I list in a doomsday manner the

[1:19:49] things that can happen by way of a short

[1:19:50] night you you would think that that's

[1:19:52] what I would then recommend but it was

[1:19:54] imprinted On Me by um a wonderful sleep

[1:19:56] clinician U Michael palis um who sort of

[1:19:59] described some of these features and

[1:20:01] exactly the reasons sort of underlying

[1:20:03] them and I think I've just tried to bake

[1:20:05] that out into a formula that makes sense

[1:20:07] again it's not about the rule it's about

[1:20:10] explaining it because when you explain

[1:20:12] it at first it sounds contradictory and

[1:20:15] paradoxical when you understand it it

[1:20:17] hopefully sounds logical and actionable

[1:20:20] um so that would be the first suggestion

[1:20:23] could I just sorry interrupt again my

[1:20:25] audience hates when I interrupt but I'm

[1:20:26] doing it on their behalf because because

[1:20:29] because I I like to think that there's

[1:20:31] um some value in some of at least what

[1:20:33] you say in response um I saw a really uh

[1:20:37] terrific post from Dr Ronda Patrick um

[1:20:40] who we both know and admire um for her

[1:20:44] public education work public health

[1:20:46] education work and she described a study

[1:20:48] whereby if people are I think it was

[1:20:50] slightly sleep deprived Maybe by a few

[1:20:52] hours that some of the uh disruption to

[1:20:56] morning blood glucose regulation that is

[1:20:58] known to accompany partial sleep

[1:21:00] deprivation and certainly complete sleep

[1:21:02] deprivation but um in this case partial

[1:21:04] sleep deprivation could be offset by

[1:21:07] still exercising in the morning that's

[1:21:09] right um which frankly I have to say if

[1:21:12] I haven't slept that well then you know

[1:21:14] normally I'm like H maybe today's the

[1:21:15] day I don't exercise but now having

[1:21:17] heard that information I make it a point

[1:21:20] to still exercise um sometimes with a

[1:21:23] little bit less intensity yeah um

[1:21:25] because I don't want to be completely

[1:21:26] exhausted in the afternoon um and and go

[1:21:30] to sleep at you know 4 p.m. or something

[1:21:32] really disrupt my schedule but I thought

[1:21:33] that was really interesting because it's

[1:21:35] it's a it's a sort of um partial

[1:21:37] inoculation of of the blood glucose

[1:21:40] disruption caused by uh sleep

[1:21:42] deprivation I I'm so glad you brought it

[1:21:44] up it's a fantastic study and I um Rond

[1:21:47] and I um I think even tried to discuss

[1:21:50] it some years ago on a show but I like

[1:21:53] it because it does offer some degree of

[1:21:56] actionable Hope and a

[1:21:59] strategy blood sugar absolutely critical

[1:22:03] it is very sensitive to sleep when you

[1:22:06] don't get enough it goes in bad

[1:22:08] directions you used a very specific word

[1:22:11] cleverly so that word was

[1:22:15] partially at first you hear or read that

[1:22:18] study and Ronda was never suggesting

[1:22:19] this too I'm not saying that you think

[1:22:23] well if it offsets blood sugar and the

[1:22:26] city was saying exercise can nullify a

[1:22:30] lack of

[1:22:30] sleep you conflate that single outcome

[1:22:34] benefit with the idea that well but

[1:22:37] maybe it doesn't actually re or does it

[1:22:41] compensate for the deficits in immune

[1:22:44] function or

[1:22:45] cardiovascular disease concerns or my

[1:22:48] hormonal health or my learning in memory

[1:22:51] or my emotional and brain health maybe

[1:22:53] it does but maybe it doesn't so I think

[1:22:55] I would always just caution people to

[1:22:58] saying when you hear a study like that

[1:23:00] it's very natural to think oh that must

[1:23:02] mean that it translates to everything

[1:23:04] else in my body and everything else in

[1:23:06] my brain it may but it also may not

[1:23:10] be terrific so if you don't sleep that

[1:23:13] well do your best to still get some

[1:23:15] exercise but just be mindful of the um

[1:23:18] the fact that you know in the winter

[1:23:20] months especially that might if you go

[1:23:22] too hard in the gym or on a run you

[1:23:24] might be a little bit immune compromised

[1:23:27] just be mindful of the fact that you're

[1:23:28] you're a more vulnerable being when

[1:23:30] you're sleep deprived and that but that

[1:23:32] exercise can help adjust things in the

[1:23:34] right direction and if it's early in the

[1:23:36] day um presumably that's not going to

[1:23:38] disrupt your the proper bedtime and if

[1:23:41] it's later in the day I suppose as long

[1:23:44] as you don't need caffeine in order to

[1:23:46] uh to do that exercise and or um if

[1:23:50] you're familiar with exercising later in

[1:23:53] the day fine I you know I find if I

[1:23:55] exercise like I'm not one of these

[1:23:56] people think can go for a run at you

[1:23:58] know 7:00 at night and then just shower

[1:24:01] you're a morning type because I'm a

[1:24:02] morning type other people can okay we'll

[1:24:04] get into exercise a bit more in a later

[1:24:05] episode um we'll be sure to do that but

[1:24:08] nonetheless I just rais that now um so

[1:24:11] what are some of the other

[1:24:13] unconventional protocols for sleep so I

[1:24:16] think other suggestions I would have

[1:24:18] after do nothing would be try to think

[1:24:22] about limiting your time embed if you

[1:24:24] are struggling with sleep this is

[1:24:26] something that is used in the probably

[1:24:30] the most well validated psychological

[1:24:33] intervention for insomnia and it's

[1:24:36] called cognitive behavioral therapy for

[1:24:38] insomnia or cbti for short what happens

[1:24:42] is that you work with a clinician they

[1:24:44] interview you they assess all of the

[1:24:46] reasons that you may not be sleeping and

[1:24:48] then they create from the toolbox of

[1:24:50] many different options a bespoke

[1:24:53] tailored sort of saval R soup

[1:24:55] prescription for you for your treatment

[1:24:58] if you look at the studies of that

[1:25:00] collection of different tools in the

[1:25:01] cbti Box for intervention of insomnia

[1:25:05] and you ask of all of those which seems

[1:25:08] to carry the greatest impact on insomnia

[1:25:12] which has the greatest sort of

[1:25:14] Gravitas it seems to be this thing that

[1:25:16] we call bedtime rescheduling it used to

[1:25:19] be known as sleep restriction therapy

[1:25:22] but obviously if you come to to mean you

[1:25:24] say look I'm not sleeping very well I've

[1:25:27] got insomnia I say I understand and I've

[1:25:30] got a treatment for you it's called

[1:25:31] Sleep restriction therapy and you say no

[1:25:33] no no you didn't understand it I I'm not

[1:25:35] getting enough

[1:25:36] sleep but it's not quite that here's how

[1:25:39] it works if you are spending so much

[1:25:43] time in bed too much time in bed you are

[1:25:46] not forcing your brain to be

[1:25:49] efficient and by way of constraining

[1:25:52] your sleep window even to let's say five

[1:25:55] hours a night to begin with i Brute

[1:25:59] Force ruthless efficiency from your

[1:26:02] sleeping brain after several days so

[1:26:04] another analogy would be let's say

[1:26:06] you're trying to make a nice thin crust

[1:26:08] of of pizza base and you put the dough

[1:26:11] on the table and you start rolling it

[1:26:13] out if you roll it too thin it starts to

[1:26:15] get gaps and holes in it why because

[1:26:19] you've spread it out too far and you've

[1:26:21] started to create these absences

[1:26:24] that's the same thing that happens and

[1:26:26] it's very natural as an insomnia patient

[1:26:28] you would say I'm just not getting

[1:26:30] enough sleep so I'm going to start

[1:26:31] spending more time in bed it's the very

[1:26:33] worst idea another way would be to say

[1:26:36] look I go to the gym and I you know

[1:26:39] spend about an hour and a half working

[1:26:40] out but if I were to videotape you a lot

[1:26:42] of people are doing the I think you've

[1:26:44] I've coed as your phrase but um the 11th

[1:26:47] rep where people you know do the 10 reps

[1:26:50] and then all of a sudden there's the

[1:26:51] selfie or there's the social media oh

[1:26:53] yeah the texting they finish the lastup

[1:26:55] put down and then straight away on the

[1:26:57] TT and if you look they're only working

[1:27:00] out for about let's say 45 minutes and

[1:27:03] the other is wasted so what if the next

[1:27:06] day you came to the gym and I said look

[1:27:08] I'm sorry and there's some big bouncer

[1:27:10] guys at the door um you are only allowed

[1:27:13] to work out for 40 minutes and then

[1:27:14] we're going to eject you and the first

[1:27:17] day you go back and you do the same

[1:27:19] thing and then you've only got through

[1:27:21] 30% of your workout so you get booted

[1:27:24] the next day you come back in you do a

[1:27:25] little bit more and you get booted again

[1:27:27] after about five or six days you you've

[1:27:30] built up such a strong desire and hunger

[1:27:33] to get your workout in you walk in you

[1:27:35] put your phone on silent you put it over

[1:27:37] in the corner and you just get to it and

[1:27:40] that's the same thing that we're trying

[1:27:41] to do with sleep restriction therapy so

[1:27:44] you have to be a little bit careful do

[1:27:46] it under supervision especially if

[1:27:47] you're driving or you're operating heavy

[1:27:49] machinery we just want to keep an eye

[1:27:51] it's not necessarily a big concern but

[1:27:53] we would say Okay Andrew you're

[1:27:55] currently spending almost total about

[1:27:59] you know 8ish or 7 and a half hours in

[1:28:01] bed tonight I'm going to restrict you

[1:28:04] down to 5 hours a night and we're going

[1:28:06] to do this for the next week and the way

[1:28:08] that we normally do it is I don't change

[1:28:10] your wakeup time I change your to bed

[1:28:13] time why it's easier to stay awake

[1:28:16] longer than it is to wake up earlier so

[1:28:19] I put it on the front end to the

[1:28:21] compromise and at first things don't

[1:28:24] change but after maybe about four or

[1:28:26] five days of going through this I build

[1:28:29] up enough of a shortterm debt in your

[1:28:34] system that your system all of a sudden

[1:28:37] thinks gosh I just cannot be as lazy

[1:28:39] anymore I can't do this thing of waking

[1:28:41] up in the middle of the night and

[1:28:43] spending an hour and a half awake I

[1:28:45] don't have the choice anymore there's so

[1:28:47] much physiological buildup and pressure

[1:28:50] to do this and gradually what happens is

[1:28:53] that you sleep longer you don't wake up

[1:28:56] as much and after maybe about 2 weeks of

[1:28:58] doing this all of a sudden you go to bed

[1:29:02] at this later time so for you let's say

[1:29:04] you normally go to bed at 88: I'm going

[1:29:05] to have you go to bed at maybe 10:30 11:

[1:29:08] but we're still going to have you wake

[1:29:10] up at that sort of 4:30 a.m. Mark that

[1:29:14] you would normally wake up and all of a

[1:29:17] sudden you go to bed at 10:30 11 you're

[1:29:20] out like a light and then again the next

[1:29:23] thing you remember is your alarm going

[1:29:25] off saying I'm sorry you've got to wake

[1:29:27] up and what happens by way of that reset

[1:29:30] is gradually we will then once you're

[1:29:32] stable we will start to back it off

[1:29:35] we'll start to have you go to bed at 10:

[1:29:37] and if it stays stable then 9:45 then

[1:29:40] 9:30 and tit trate you back to where you

[1:29:43] were and if there's any sign that you're

[1:29:46] starting to not sleep well we zip it

[1:29:48] back up again the goal here is in some

[1:29:51] ways almost like hitting the reset

[1:29:54] button on your Wi-Fi router I'm trying

[1:29:56] to retrain your brain to better sleep

[1:29:59] because when you are not sleeping well

[1:30:03] you've lost your confidence in your

[1:30:05] ability to sleep and when I do this

[1:30:08] technique with you gradually your system

[1:30:11] and you cognitively relearn that you are

[1:30:14] a good sleeper and you can trust in

[1:30:16] sleep and now your sleep does not

[1:30:19] control you you control your sleep the

[1:30:22] hard part however is that it's not easy

[1:30:25] to go through and we have to be we have

[1:30:28] to usually ask two questions with

[1:30:30] individuals firstly what is your

[1:30:32] motivation for better sleep um we need

[1:30:35] to know that you really are motivated

[1:30:37] and then second you just stay with a hi

[1:30:39] touch White Glove frequency checking in

[1:30:41] on individuals and motivating them to

[1:30:44] keep going because it's very easy to

[1:30:45] fall off the wagon so that's the the

[1:30:48] next suggestion sleep restriction

[1:30:50] therapy or bedtime rescheduling as we

[1:30:53] would call it you said it's difficult

[1:30:55] for people to go through you know it

[1:30:56] takes a little bit of rigor a little bit

[1:30:58] of attention means in some cases getting

[1:31:00] less sleep than one would like but as

[1:31:03] compared to something that you know

[1:31:05] sadly I've experienced a lot in my life

[1:31:07] of having challenges with sleep and

[1:31:10] trying to get things back in order and

[1:31:11] looking at the the bed and just going oh

[1:31:13] my God Battle Ground you know Battle

[1:31:16] Ground you know it's um I think it it

[1:31:18] makes a lot of sense and I love the

[1:31:20] analogy to the gym somehow if there's a

[1:31:23] restriction into 1 hour in and out the

[1:31:25] door or maybe 70 minutes in and out the

[1:31:27] door CU you need to put your stuff in

[1:31:28] the locker or something like that it

[1:31:30] always at least for me gets done best

[1:31:33] when you just have those constraints I

[1:31:34] think there's something about the human

[1:31:35] brain that we don't do well in um un

[1:31:39] unrestrained systems that I I really

[1:31:41] think guard rails are are fantastic I

[1:31:43] love deadlines for instance yeah

[1:31:45] discipline is essentially the hard hard

[1:31:48] deadlines like or as they say in

[1:31:49] Academia because we you know write

[1:31:51] grants all the time drop deadlines which

[1:31:53] who up that ter but like if you don't

[1:31:55] make it that's it it's like there isn't

[1:31:57] a hey I'll send this in tomorrow 5:00

[1:31:58] p.m. Pacific time that website

[1:32:01] closes and you better Bo do you get

[1:32:04] things done all of a sudden it's

[1:32:06] surprising how much distraction you can

[1:32:09] you know pull out the noise and focus on

[1:32:11] the signal it's great signal to noise

[1:32:13] ratio yeah and I I love the idea that

[1:32:15] you that one can control their sleep as

[1:32:17] opposed to sleep controlling them I

[1:32:18] think that that's um and and this notion

[1:32:20] of sleep

[1:32:21] confidence um one's conf idence in their

[1:32:24] ability to sleep these are important

[1:32:26] terms and they're more than just terms

[1:32:27] because I think that um a a field and

[1:32:31] and an area of Health practice and gosh

[1:32:33] what's more important than sleep it's

[1:32:35] the foundation of mental health physical

[1:32:36] health and performance period um really

[1:32:39] thrives on a common um common

[1:32:43] nomenclature and and I really appreciate

[1:32:45] that you're you know peppering these

[1:32:47] episodes with it with um new

[1:32:49] nomenclature um that captures a lot of

[1:32:52] the essence of the protocols and the

[1:32:54] mechanisms so there that's my editorial

[1:32:56] please please continue I would say that

[1:32:59] in terms of other things maybe just to

[1:33:00] go through them um a little more quickly

[1:33:03] we've spoken some about a wind down

[1:33:06] routine most people underappreciate the

[1:33:08] importance of a wi down routine we often

[1:33:11] think that sleep is like a light bulb

[1:33:13] that we dive into bed we switch off the

[1:33:16] light bulb and sleep should appear just

[1:33:18] as quickly it's untrue sleep in terms of

[1:33:22] a process is much more physiologically

[1:33:24] like trying to land a plane it just

[1:33:26] takes time to come down onto the

[1:33:28] terraferma of good sleep at night

[1:33:32] whatever it is you enjoy as a relaxation

[1:33:35] method engage in it could be listening

[1:33:37] to a podcast could be reading a book

[1:33:39] maybe it's a meditation it's light

[1:33:41] stretching maybe whatever it is that you

[1:33:44] do just build it into your regiment you

[1:33:48] know you would never you know be driving

[1:33:50] down the road and then pull into your

[1:33:53] garage

[1:33:54] at the same 40 mph speed you gradually

[1:33:58] decelerate and you come to a

[1:34:00] stop it's the same thing with sleep so

[1:34:03] you need to find some way to decelerate

[1:34:05] and we've spoken about methods already

[1:34:07] as to how to do

[1:34:09] that the next tip is a little quirky and

[1:34:12] funny do not count sheep there's a great

[1:34:16] study from my colleague Dr Alison Harvey

[1:34:18] at UC berley and she put this to the

[1:34:20] test didn't make people fall asleep

[1:34:23] faster it made them take longer to fall

[1:34:26] asleep however she did find an

[1:34:29] alternative if you are not into

[1:34:32] meditation or podcasts or sleep stories

[1:34:35] or whatever it is that you you wish for

[1:34:38] try taking yourself on a mental walk and

[1:34:42] it has to be a walk that you know very

[1:34:44] well so let's say that you walk your dog

[1:34:46] every day and you know there's a couple

[1:34:48] of walks that you take with your dog do

[1:34:50] it in hyperd detail So Close Your Eyes

[1:34:53] you go to the front door you clip in the

[1:34:56] dog to the leash you walk out you go

[1:34:59] down the steps out to the driveway then

[1:35:02] you take a right but you always cross

[1:35:04] over and you look to the left and the

[1:35:05] right CU that's the place where traffic

[1:35:06] always comes you cross over and now

[1:35:08] you're walking up and there's that

[1:35:10] strange sort of set of garbage that's

[1:35:13] been outside of that house for a long

[1:35:15] time and you don't know why it hasn't

[1:35:16] been cleared and then you move that type

[1:35:19] of High Fidelity

[1:35:22] detail allows you to do what we said

[1:35:25] earlier which is get your mind off

[1:35:28] itself and when you do that again

[1:35:31] typically you fall asleep faster and

[1:35:34] that's what she found it was a great

[1:35:35] great study I really enjoyed that I'm

[1:35:38] curious as to why it works so well and

[1:35:43] I'm not challenging that it works I I

[1:35:45] can imagine having just closed my eyes

[1:35:47] and kind of imagine what that would be

[1:35:48] like it's very pleasant um there might

[1:35:52] be here I'm just specul ating something

[1:35:54] about engaging one's procedural memory

[1:35:56] because that's procedural memory you're

[1:35:58] trying to remember how you do something

[1:35:59] as opposed to declarative memory which

[1:36:01] is about facts you know I remember this

[1:36:03] and this is going to happen tomorrow I

[1:36:05] wonder whether or not there's something

[1:36:08] about using a procedural memory um as

[1:36:12] opposed to a declarative memory

[1:36:15] visualization somebody should do that

[1:36:18] study they should and I think it's

[1:36:20] certainly possible that when you're

[1:36:21] incorporating some aspect you know some

[1:36:23] aspects of the scene and the information

[1:36:26] is more sort of veridical and maybe EP

[1:36:28] sort of episodic declarative memory but

[1:36:31] when you're taking yourself for a mental

[1:36:33] walk what is the fundamental premise of

[1:36:35] that it's a walk it's motion it's

[1:36:37] procedural memory and so maybe it's

[1:36:39] something to do about with being more

[1:36:41] attentive to becoming embodied because

[1:36:44] when you're out walking and you're

[1:36:46] moving it is a more embodied experience

[1:36:50] than just sitting there at your desk

[1:36:52] which is your mostly your head and very

[1:36:55] little your body so I think it's an

[1:36:56] intriguing idea and um I think another

[1:37:00] tip that I now think of which also comes

[1:37:03] from the work of Dr Allison

[1:37:05] Harvey when individuals come up to me um

[1:37:09] after sort of public events or they see

[1:37:12] me at the airport they'll say look every

[1:37:15] night for some strange reason at 2:45

[1:37:19] a.m. I wake up and it happens three or

[1:37:22] four nights a week

[1:37:24] my first question to them is how do you

[1:37:27] know it's

[1:37:29] 2:45 and they say well I look at the

[1:37:32] clock or I look at my

[1:37:33] phone best piece of advice next remove

[1:37:37] all clock faces from the bedroom no

[1:37:40] matter how bad your sleep is going to be

[1:37:43] that night knowing what time it is is

[1:37:46] only going to make matters worse it is

[1:37:49] not going to make matters any

[1:37:51] better and that can create

[1:37:54] an anxiety trigger that you think it's

[1:37:56] 245 and then you're tossing and turning

[1:37:59] you look back at the clock and now it's

[1:38:01] 3:14 a.m. and you think I've got to be

[1:38:04] awake at 600 I've got that big meeting

[1:38:06] and now it's

[1:38:07] 5:2 don't do that to yourself and I even

[1:38:11] though I don't typically struggle with

[1:38:13] sleep I have no clock faces in my

[1:38:16] bedroom the phone that I use to help do

[1:38:19] the guided meditation is an old phone

[1:38:22] and it has

[1:38:23] only Wi-Fi connectivity and nothing else

[1:38:26] on it and I will only hit play and then

[1:38:31] I will never turn it around um I will

[1:38:34] not look at the clock face just doesn't

[1:38:35] help me another incentive for keeping

[1:38:38] the phone out of the room um if if one

[1:38:42] can I I understand there are reasons

[1:38:44] when um one would want the phone in the

[1:38:47] room if you know it's potentially

[1:38:50] signaling an emergency you know well I

[1:38:53] think I think it's a very important

[1:38:54] point and we've done some work in this

[1:38:56] area too what that phone does is create

[1:39:00] a a low level of anxiety it's what we

[1:39:04] call anticipatory

[1:39:07] anxiety one of the mechanisms separate

[1:39:10] from that well it's related to that if

[1:39:12] you look at teen phone use one of the

[1:39:14] reasons that they don't sleep very well

[1:39:16] at night is that they're constantly

[1:39:17] checking their phones because of fomo a

[1:39:20] fear of missing out what has gone on as

[1:39:22] I've been asleep and it's stunning the

[1:39:24] data but for most adults the other

[1:39:26] reason I don't like advocating for phone

[1:39:30] use when your alarm goes off in the

[1:39:33] morning what is the first thing that you

[1:39:35] do as you're in bed you swipe right or

[1:39:38] you unlock your phone and you instantly

[1:39:41] start checking social media emails text

[1:39:44] messages and this tsunami of Stress and

[1:39:48] Anxiety just floods over you it hits you

[1:39:51] like this wall of anxiet

[1:39:54] and I bring this up because it again

[1:39:57] trains your brain for expectation of