Master Your Sleep & Be More Alert When Awake | Huberman Lab Essentials

[00:00] ANDREW HUBERMAN: Welcome to

[00:02] we revisit past episodes for

[00:06] science based tools for mental

[00:08] and performance.

[00:09] [MUSIC PLAYING]

[00:11] I'm Andrew Huberman,

[00:13] of neurobiology

[00:15] at Stanford School of Medicine.

[00:17] Today's podcast episode

[00:21] We're also going to talk about

[00:24] which is wakefulness.

[00:25] Now, these two phases of our

[00:29] govern everything about our

[00:33] And we're not just going to talk

[00:37] We're also going to talk about

[00:40] and that will include

[00:41] at falling asleep,

[00:44] and accessing better

[00:47] In doing so, we're

[00:48] how to get more focused

[00:52] So if you're like most

[00:56] you have some

[00:58] At least every third

[01:00] and maybe even more often.

[01:02] So we're really going

[01:04] and talk about tools that

[01:07] sleep better and emerge from

[01:11] So what determines

[01:13] and the quality of

[01:16] It turns out that's

[01:19] The first force is

[01:21] It's called adenosine.

[01:23] Adenosine is a molecule in

[01:27] that builds up the

[01:30] So if you've just slept for

[01:34] deep restful hours,

[01:36] to be very low in

[01:39] If, however, you've been awake

[01:43] adenosine levels are

[01:46] Adenosine creates a sort of

[01:50] And a good way to remember

[01:54] is to think about caffeine.

[01:56] Caffeine for most

[01:59] It makes them feel more alert.

[02:01] Caffeine acts as an

[02:06] What that means is that when you

[02:09] it's coffee or soda or

[02:12] it binds to the

[02:15] It sort of parks there

[02:17] park in a given parking slot.

[02:19] And therefore adenosine

[02:22] Now, when caffeine parks in

[02:26] nothing really happens

[02:30] The receptor can't engage

[02:32] of making that cell

[02:36] So the reason

[02:39] is because it blocks

[02:42] It blocks the sleepy signal.

[02:44] And this is why when

[02:47] adenosine will bind

[02:49] sometimes with even greater

[02:52] And you feel the crash,

[02:55] Caffeine has a lot

[02:58] It also, for some people, can

[03:01] it can raise blood

[03:03] Caffeine increases this

[03:07] that we call dopamine.

[03:08] We discussed this in

[03:10] tends to make us feel good,

[03:14] because as you may have

[03:17] dopamine is related to

[03:21] epinephrine, which

[03:22] In fact, epinephrine

[03:25] So let's just take a

[03:27] about what we're

[03:28] we're talking about sleepiness.

[03:30] If you've ever pulled

[03:31] you'll noticed

[03:33] As morning rolls

[03:36] feel an increase in your

[03:38] again, even though adenosine

[03:41] for the entire night.

[03:44] Now, why is that?

[03:45] The reason that

[03:47] a second force which is

[03:50] and when you're awake.

[03:51] And that force is a

[03:55] Circadian means about a

[04:00] And inside all of

[04:02] exists in your

[04:05] and the brain of every

[04:07] aware of that determines

[04:11] and when we want to be awake.

[04:13] That block of sleep and when it

[04:18] is governed by a number

[04:21] But the most

[04:23] governing when you

[04:24] and when you want to

[04:28] And in particular, it's

[04:31] Now, I can't emphasize

[04:33] and how actionable this

[04:37] and when you want to sleep.

[04:40] It's quite simple

[04:43] and it's quite

[04:44] But people tend to make a big

[04:47] literature frankly.

[04:49] So let's just break it

[04:52] of what's going on in

[04:54] as you go through

[04:58] Let's start with waking.

[04:59] So regardless of how

[05:01] or whether or not you

[05:03] most people tend

[05:05] around when the sun rises.

[05:08] When you wake up

[05:10] wake up because a

[05:12] called cortisol is released

[05:16] Your adrenal glands sit

[05:18] and there's a little

[05:20] There's also a pulse

[05:22] which is adrenaline from your

[05:27] And you feel awake.

[05:29] Now, that pulse of cortisol

[05:32] might come from

[05:34] It might come from you

[05:36] But it tends to alert your

[05:40] that it's time to

[05:41] It's time to start

[05:43] It's time to start moving about.

[05:45] It's very important

[05:48] come early in the

[05:51] in your period of wakefulness.

[05:53] When you wake up in the

[05:55] that rise in cortisol, there's

[06:00] and these are cellular

[06:02] dictated by the relation

[06:04] in your body that says

[06:08] that in about 12 to 14

[06:12] This hormone we're

[06:14] will be released from

[06:16] So there's two mechanisms

[06:19] and a sleepiness signal.

[06:21] And the wakefulness

[06:23] the onset of the timer

[06:26] OK, so the rhythm of

[06:30] is what we call endogenous.

[06:32] It's happening in us all the

[06:36] In fact, if we were in complete

[06:39] with no artificial

[06:41] these rhythms of cortisol

[06:45] So if you were in

[06:48] it would happen once

[06:51] but it would be somewhat

[06:55] Whereas under normal

[07:00] is you wake up.

[07:01] And what happens

[07:03] You open your eyes.

[07:04] When you open your eyes.

[07:06] Light comes into your eyes.

[07:07] Now, the way this

[07:09] that you have a particular

[07:12] They're called retinal

[07:14] When light comes

[07:16] a particular group of

[07:18] or type of retinal

[07:21] that perceives a

[07:24] and communicates that to

[07:27] above the roof of

[07:28] the suprachiasmatic nucleus.

[07:30] And the suprachiasmatic

[07:33] connections with

[07:36] and organ of your body.

[07:38] Now, it's vitally

[07:40] get light communicated to

[07:43] to time the cortisol

[07:47] When I say properly, I can

[07:50] because we know based

[07:52] that if you don't get your

[07:56] right, there are

[08:00] and bad effects on

[08:04] metabolic effects, learning,

[08:08] So let's think

[08:10] when we do this correctly

[08:12] When we wake up, our eyes open.

[08:15] Now, if we're in

[08:17] isn't enough light to

[08:21] of this cortisol

[08:24] These rhythms, you might say,

[08:28] Well, it turns out

[08:31] in our eye that set

[08:33] and then allow our

[08:35] all the clocks of all the

[08:38] of our body, responds best to

[08:43] an amount of light.

[08:45] And those are the qualities

[08:49] that come from sunlight.

[08:51] So these neurons, what

[08:56] although they don't have

[08:58] is the sun at what we

[09:01] The eye and the nervous

[09:03] about sunrises or sunsets.

[09:05] It only knows the

[09:07] that comes in when the

[09:10] This system evolved so that

[09:14] there's a particular contrast

[09:17] that triggers the

[09:20] However, if you

[09:22] after the sunrise, which I

[09:26] you still want to get

[09:29] You don't need the sunlight

[09:32] in the eyes.

[09:33] There's a lot of photons,

[09:36] from sunlight at this time.

[09:37] But the key is to get that light

[09:43] into your eyes.

[09:44] It's critically important

[09:46] to get this light.

[09:47] I had a discussion with a

[09:50] Zeitzer, who's in the Department

[09:53] Sciences at Stanford,

[09:58] And he tells me that it's

[10:03] to view this sunlight through a

[10:08] or through a side

[10:10] than it is to just get outside

[10:14] light early in the day.

[10:15] Once the sun is overhead,

[10:18] shifts so that you miss

[10:22] the cortisol pulse.

[10:23] And that turns out to

[10:26] You really want to time that

[10:29] Because we'll get into this

[10:33] But a late shifted cortisol

[10:37] or 8:00 PM increase in cortisol

[10:42] and maybe one of the causes

[10:47] and depression.

[10:48] So it's kind of a

[10:49] We don't know whether or not

[10:52] the cause or the

[10:53] a signature of depression

[10:56] Bringing that cortisol pulse

[11:00] earlier in your day

[11:03] ranging from blood pressure

[11:06] I'm not going to list them

[11:09] so many of them.

[11:10] But many, many

[11:12] when you are getting the

[11:15] far away from your

[11:18] So how long should

[11:21] Well, this is going

[11:23] because some people live

[11:24] it's very bright.

[11:25] So let's say it's Colorado

[11:29] there's a snow field,

[11:31] And you walk outside,

[11:33] to be so much photon

[11:36] on your retina that

[11:38] 30 to 60 seconds to

[11:41] and set your cortisol

[11:43] rhythms properly and get

[11:47] Whereas if you're in Scandinavia

[11:51] wake up at 5:00 AM and the sun

[11:54] the horizon and then goes back

[11:57] you probably are not getting

[12:01] these rhythms.

[12:02] So many people

[12:05] to use sunlight simulators in

[12:09] that were designed

[12:11] You could say, well, the

[12:14] are really, really bright.

[12:15] Everyone's telling us to

[12:17] because they're really bright.

[12:19] But guess what?

[12:20] It turns out that

[12:22] your retina is not

[12:25] which means you need

[12:28] ideally coming from sunlight

[12:31] So looking at your phone

[12:33] is fine if you wake

[12:35] but it's not going to work to

[12:40] So you want to use sunlight.

[12:42] If you can't see sunlight

[12:45] then you are going to have

[12:48] And in that case, you're going

[12:51] that either simulates sunlight

[12:54] Now, without going off course

[12:58] I've heard blue

[12:59] Actually, blue light is

[13:02] during the day.

[13:03] A lot of people will say I

[13:06] throughout the day.

[13:07] No, that's the

[13:09] That should be reserved

[13:12] Because light

[13:15] Sunlight inhibits the pineal.

[13:18] It prevents it from

[13:21] Darkness allows the pineal

[13:25] So the pineal is not the gland

[13:29] It is the gland of darkness.

[13:31] In fact, melatonin

[13:33] of as a sleepiness signal

[13:36] So get up each morning,

[13:39] I know that can be

[13:41] but anywhere from two to ten

[13:45] is going to work

[13:47] If you can't do it

[13:48] sleep through this period of

[13:51] don't worry about it.

[13:53] The systems in the body,

[13:55] and neurotransmitter

[13:57] make you awake at certain

[13:59] and sleepy at other

[14:03] by averaging when you

[14:08] Some of you, many of

[14:10] what else can help

[14:12] Well, it turns out

[14:14] we call the primary

[14:18] But other things

[14:21] this rhythm of cortisol,

[14:24] 12 to 16 hours later as well.

[14:26] The other things besides light

[14:31] timing of exercise, as well

[14:36] that one might ingest.

[14:38] Not illegal drugs,

[14:39] will impact circadian

[14:42] The other thing is sunset,

[14:46] at low solar angle low

[14:50] By viewing sunlight

[14:52] in the evening or afternoon,

[14:55] it is and where you

[14:57] These melanopsin cells,

[15:00] signal the central

[15:02] that it's the end of the day.

[15:04] There was a really

[15:06] showed that viewing sunlight

[15:11] doesn't have to be just

[15:13] but circa sunset within

[15:17] prevents some of the

[15:22] in preventing melatonin

[15:26] So let me repeat this viewing

[15:28] Viewing light later

[15:31] the sun is setting

[15:33] can help protect these

[15:37] against the negative effects

[15:41] So let me talk about

[15:43] You'd go view the sunset

[15:46] in the late

[15:48] Again, if you want to do this

[15:50] that's fine, but it'll

[15:52] So the best thing to do

[15:54] for a few minutes, anywhere

[15:57] in the afternoon.

[15:58] Having those two

[16:00] to your central

[16:03] your internal world

[16:05] and knows when it's evening

[16:08] There's always a lot of

[16:11] How much How do I know

[16:12] You'll know because

[16:14] start to fall into some

[16:18] You'll start to wake up at more

[16:20] You'll fall asleep

[16:22] Generally, it takes about two

[16:24] to align.

[16:25] So if you've not been

[16:27] it's going to take a few days.

[16:29] But they can have

[16:31] and sometimes rather

[16:33] of different mental and

[16:36] Now let's talk about the

[16:39] Because light is not supposed

[16:44] at any time.

[16:45] And nowadays, because of

[16:48] we have access to light at times

[16:53] we wouldn't.

[16:54] Now, earlier I

[16:56] a lot of light in

[16:58] to set these clock mechanisms.

[17:00] That's true.

[17:01] But there's a kind of

[17:03] all this works, which is the

[17:07] the more sensitive your retina

[17:11] So that if you've been

[17:15] it becomes very easy for even

[17:19] from a screen or from

[17:23] to trigger the activation

[17:26] you feel like you

[17:27] make it harder to fall asleep

[17:31] OK, so the simple way

[17:33] is want as much light

[17:36] early in the day, morning

[17:38] including blue light.

[17:40] And you want as little

[17:43] artificial or sunlight

[17:46] And certainly you do not want

[17:49] to your eyes between

[17:51] And here's why.

[17:52] Light that arrives to the eyes

[17:58] approximately, suppresses

[18:04] This neuromodulator

[18:06] is sort of an endogenous

[18:09] and can inhibit learning

[18:11] of other detrimental effects.

[18:14] It does this through a

[18:16] who want to the neural pathways

[18:19] That's then signaled to a

[18:22] When that habenula

[18:24] it's actually called the

[18:26] because it actually makes

[18:31] disappointed and can lead to

[18:34] in the wakeful state.

[18:35] Now, if you wake up in

[18:37] and you need to use the bathroom

[18:40] and you need to read or

[18:44] Every once in a

[18:46] to be a problem to get bright

[18:49] in the middle of the night.

[18:50] But if you think

[18:52] nowadays and being up

[18:55] even if you dim

[18:57] triggering this activation

[19:00] and the sensitivity

[19:01] has gone up late in the day.

[19:03] For those of you that are

[19:05] with mood, those of you that

[19:08] issues, focusing, the

[19:10] are how can I focus better?

[19:11] One of the best ways you

[19:13] for good mood, mental health,

[19:18] et cetera, is to take control

[19:22] at night and not get much

[19:26] in the middle of the night.

[19:27] These cells in our

[19:30] signal the central

[19:33] not exclusively, but mostly in

[19:36] And because we have a lens

[19:39] and because of the

[19:41] that means that these

[19:43] viewing our upper visual field.

[19:45] This is probably

[19:48] that these cells

[19:51] designed to detect sunlight,

[19:55] So if you want to avoid improper

[20:02] it's better to place

[20:05] use in the evening low in

[20:08] So on desktops or even the

[20:11] that way as opposed

[20:15] So overhead fluorescent

[20:18] That would be the

[20:20] Lights that are

[20:22] a little bit softer of the

[20:25] would be slightly better.

[20:26] But dim lights that

[20:28] are going to be best

[20:31] to activate these neurons and

[20:35] clock.

[20:36] But let's talk

[20:39] do in terms of shifting

[20:42] So the way to think about

[20:45] is you've got

[20:47] depending on how long

[20:48] and it's making you sleepy.

[20:50] And then you've got their

[20:51] that are timing your

[20:54] when you want to

[20:55] through cortisol and melatonin.

[20:57] But there are a

[20:58] that are downstream of

[21:00] like we tend to be hungrier

[21:05] than late at night.

[21:06] Some people like to

[21:07] But if you're finding that

[21:10] person or a morning person,

[21:14] exercise and food intake

[21:17] Jamie Zeitzer and colleagues

[21:20] showing that if you turn on

[21:25] so around 45 minutes to

[21:28] Even if your eyelids

[21:30] you're not under the covers.

[21:33] After doing that

[21:36] increases your total sleep time

[21:40] at which you feel sleepy.

[21:41] It makes you want to go

[21:44] Now, in a kind of

[21:47] they did this with

[21:49] notorious for wanting to wake

[21:51] And what they found was bright

[21:53] on the lights in their

[21:56] because they're trying

[21:58] And that's why they're

[22:00] through the eyelids

[22:03] then made those kids naturally

[22:06] and they ended up

[22:08] So that's something

[22:09] You could put your lights on a

[22:13] before you wake up.

[22:14] You could open your blinds so

[22:18] And again, if you curl

[22:20] then it's not going to

[22:23] But it's remarkable,

[22:24] penetrate the eyelids,

[22:27] and go to the central clock.

[22:29] That study illustrates a

[22:31] of how you're

[22:34] the capacity for what are called

[22:38] And I don't want to

[22:41] So the simplest way to think

[22:45] delays is that if you

[22:49] and in particular in the

[22:52] and body, for

[22:54] understand will think that

[22:58] though it's not sunlight,

[23:00] sensitivity and it will phase

[23:04] It will essentially make

[23:06] and go to sleep later.

[23:07] So the simple way

[23:09] is if you're having

[23:12] and feeling alert

[23:14] you're going to want to try and

[23:17] before waking up because

[23:21] It's sort of like turning

[23:23] Whereas if you are having

[23:26] you definitely don't want to

[23:29] or any light exposure to

[23:31] and in the middle of the night

[23:34] your clock more and more.

[23:36] And what you're trying to

[23:39] You're trying to provide them

[23:43] that your cortisol, your

[23:46] that cascades down from

[23:49] and your ability to learn

[23:52] your dopamine, your

[23:55] is timed regularly.

[23:58] One of the reasons

[24:00] challenge out there with focus

[24:06] There are a lot of

[24:07] But one of the reasons is that

[24:11] aren't anchored to

[24:13] These systems,

[24:15] but if you can provide them

[24:18] in the day and in the evening

[24:21] you will be amazed at

[24:24] of positive effects

[24:25] from that at the level of

[24:29] and just general

[24:31] And this is why whenever people

[24:34] Which is one of the most

[24:36] What supplements should I take?

[24:37] What drugs should I be taking?

[24:39] What things should I be taking?

[24:40] The first question I always

[24:45] And 90% of the time

[24:47] either have trouble falling

[24:50] or they don't feel rested

[24:52] A brief note about naps.

[24:54] Naps provided that they're

[24:58] provided they're 20

[24:59] or even an hour can be very

[25:02] You don't have to take them,

[25:06] feel a dip in energy and

[25:09] In fact, if we were going

[25:11] we would find is that you get

[25:13] hopefully your cortisol goes

[25:15] and then around 2 or 3

[25:18] there's a spike in everything

[25:22] to learn.

[25:23] Some metabolic factors drop

[25:25] comes back up.

[25:26] And then it tapers off

[25:29] So for some of you,

[25:32] I love taking naps.

[25:33] Some people, they wake up from

[25:36] That's probably

[25:38] sleeping as well as

[25:40] or as long as they

[25:42] And so they're dropping into REM

[25:46] in the daytime.

[25:47] And then they wake up and

[25:49] Other people feel

[25:51] So that's another case where

[25:53] you sort of have to

[25:55] OK, so naps are going to be good

[25:58] I personally like to take

[26:01] but there's a practice that I've

[26:05] that I've found to be

[26:08] That is sort of like

[26:10] It's a thing that

[26:14] Yoga nidra actually

[26:16] And it's a sort of meditation

[26:19] Meditation and

[26:21] have been immensely

[26:23] in terms of accelerating

[26:26] So they involve taking a few

[26:31] just like you would

[26:33] listening to a script

[26:35] and it has do some particular

[26:38] and some other kind of body

[26:42] help people learn to relax,

[26:45] but get better at

[26:48] thinking in order

[26:49] they want to do that at night.

[26:51] In other words, they're

[26:53] because it's a training

[26:55] train your nervous system to

[26:59] alertness, that you

[27:01] relaxation that you do want.

[27:03] And so it's really teaching

[27:06] And that brings us to an even

[27:09] which is we've all experienced

[27:13] if we want to.

[27:14] If we want to stay up

[27:17] want to push an all-nighter.

[27:18] Some people can do that

[27:20] but we're all capable

[27:23] But it's very hard to make

[27:26] And so there's a sort

[27:28] our autonomic

[27:30] governs this alertness,

[27:32] the sympathetic and

[27:34] there's an asymmetry

[27:36] are more easily able to

[27:40] wakefulness.

[27:40] We can force ourselves

[27:43] than we are able to force

[27:46] And one of the things that

[27:49] and I'm going to continue

[27:51] is it's very hard to control

[27:54] When you have trouble

[27:56] you need to look to

[27:58] involves the body.

[27:59] And all the things I described

[28:02] nidra, all involve

[28:06] breathing certain ways of lying

[28:10] We're going to get into

[28:12] at another time.

[28:13] But all of those involve using

[28:16] rather than trying to wrestle

[28:21] of relaxation.

[28:22] And when we're having

[28:25] I encourage people to

[28:27] look toward sunlight, avoid

[28:30] if that happens to

[28:32] So there's a theme that's

[28:34] which is in order to control

[28:36] the nervous system,

[28:38] to some of the things

[28:40] like sensation,

[28:42] But we have to ask,

[28:45] Well, I'm talking about

[28:47] controlling your

[28:49] non-sleep deep rest

[28:52] we will refer to as NSDR

[28:58] to reset one's

[29:01] after you emerge from NSDR.

[29:03] So to get some more

[29:05] to attend some emotional

[29:08] as well as make it

[29:11] to fall asleep when you want

[29:14] Now, non-sleep deep rest

[29:17] to support it.

[29:18] There's a beautiful study done

[29:22] I will later provide a

[29:25] showed that this meditation

[29:29] meditation allows dopamine

[29:33] in an area of the brain

[29:35] involved in motor planning and

[29:39] In other words, this NSDR

[29:43] to engage in the world in a

[29:46] OK, so what about things

[29:49] should or should

[29:51] to control and access better

[29:55] There are a couple

[29:56] are directly in line

[29:58] related to falling and

[30:00] in line with the

[30:03] There's a whole category of

[30:07] amphetamine and

[30:10] that are the

[30:12] designed for the

[30:13] So things like

[30:17] that are designed to

[30:18] they are all essentially

[30:23] of things that increase

[30:26] Now, of course, I'm

[30:28] that things like

[30:30] are just across the board bad.

[30:31] They have so many addictive

[30:34] In the proper setting prescribed

[30:38] things like modafinil for

[30:42] I know that a lot of people

[30:46] even though they haven't been

[30:49] to increase wakefulness.

[30:50] That is essentially, well,

[30:54] but it's also abusing

[30:57] that you're pushing back

[30:59] slightly differently

[31:01] It will make you

[31:02] There tends to be

[31:04] and they do have an

[31:05] There are also

[31:07] of those that can be quite bad.

[31:08] But there are some

[31:10] that are safer, certainly safer,

[31:16] doing all the right behaviors,

[31:19] correctly and you're

[31:21] with sleep, that can be

[31:24] and staying asleep.

[31:25] Now, I want to be very clear.

[31:26] I am not pushing supplements.

[31:28] I'm just pointing you

[31:30] that have been shown in

[31:32] to have some benefit.

[31:34] The first one is magnesium.

[31:37] There are many

[31:38] but certain forms of magnesium

[31:41] on sleepiness and the

[31:44] mainly by way of increasing

[31:48] There are a lot of forms

[31:50] but one in particular

[31:53] T-H-R-E-O-N-A-T-E, which you

[31:59] right for you.

[31:59] Check with your doctor.

[32:00] The other thing is theanine.

[32:02] T-H-E-A--

[32:09] 100 to 200 milligrams

[32:12] also helps me turn off

[32:15] Interestingly, theanine

[32:17] to a lot of energy

[32:20] to take away the jitters

[32:22] with drinking too much caffeine

[32:24] are in the energy drinks.

[32:26] So just a consideration.

[32:28] Again, I'm not here

[32:29] to do or not do, but just want

[32:33] The thing about theanine and

[32:38] they do for some people,

[32:41] and sleep so deeply that they

[32:43] in the morning.

[32:44] So you have to play with

[32:46] if you decide to use them again,

[32:49] I would not start by

[32:51] I would start by getting your

[32:54] And then think

[32:56] and then think

[32:57] and then think about whether

[33:00] We already talked about

[33:02] There's another supplement

[33:04] which is apigenin.

[33:05] A-P-I-G-E-N-I-N, which is

[33:09] 50 milligrams of apigenin

[33:14] this kind of creation of a

[33:18] and stay asleep.

[33:20] As an important point, apigenin

[33:24] inhibitor.

[33:25] So women who want to keep

[33:28] or at whatever levels

[33:31] should probably avoid

[33:33] And men take that into

[33:37] Men need estrogen also.

[33:38] You don't want to completely

[33:40] That can create all

[33:42] on libido and

[33:45] So apigenin in some

[33:47] to be a pretty strong

[33:49] So keep that in mind.

[33:50] So thank you so much for

[33:52] And above all, thank you for

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