COVID's Impact on Media & Work — Full Breakdown & Transcript

[00:09] language. If you think you may be offended, switch off [Applause] [Music]

[00:21] Mojo and the Inside Mojo podcast. I'm your host Rob and with me as usual is Watch Mojo's co-founder and CEO Ashan Carbisan. How's it going today, Ash? I'm in Montreal, but we're feeling really, really good because uh Ivon Ivan the

[00:37] Great Ivan Demidov is uh coming to join the Habs. A bit premature. So, uh my news broke out or yesterday or the day before, whenever. I've been on Cloud9

[00:49] ever since. new new player in town, uh a playoff spot, you know, possibly secured and uh yeah, spring is around the corner, so all things are looking up. I know. So, before we get into the subject of today's episode, um you may have

[01:04] heard of this thing called tariffs. Uh it seems to be the thing that everybody is talking about lately and freaking out about to some degree. Um what's your interpretation? what what can we expect uh from tariffs uh in the way that they

[01:19] would affect you know particularly the media landscape and YouTube um is there any concern I mean any concern look for the last five years actually going back to co there's always been this like massive

[01:32] externality that really has nothing to do with let's say watch Mojo YouTube but you know if somebody sneezes you may catch a cold so tariffs are the latest thing uh After COVID, we also had interest rates shooting up, which

[01:46] obviously has like an effect across the economy. So tariffs, it's funny because between 1861 and 1933, the US was actually very much protectionist in terms of their economy.

[02:02] They were isolationist in terms of foreign policy until World War I. And then Woodro Wilson was like in 1917 was like, we got to get involved. And then the 20th century it was all about expansionist foreign policy to control

[02:15] resources to project power yada yada economically uh they were protectionist right and then what happens is to you since this is ultimately we talk about startups and tech and all that you know let's take one company alphabet so

[02:30] Alphabet Google in search it's dominant it's got a very closed-minded it's protectionist it's not going to open up its source code it's not going to share advertising data The same company Alphabet when it

[02:43] launched Google+ their social platform to rival Facebook who was the dominant player they were very open very less a fair like we'll share data because they're a challenger to the incumbent right so similarly coming out of you

[02:57] right so similarly coming out of you know World War II the US kind of wanted to totally take over from the British Empire and push back the USSR. So obviously as a capitalist beacon or whatever it kind of dropped all tariffs

[03:12] whatever it kind of dropped all tariffs and it largely um adopted a very less and it largely um adopted a very less effort economic policy which undoubtedly along with like American ingenuity and yada yada explain America's success in

[03:25] the 20th century. Mhm. So fast forward to today, you know, I go criticize and praise people groups when reasonable crit, you know, don't be dogmatic about things. There's a thousand things I don't really like about Trump,

[03:39] but there are things about him that I understand his appeal to his voters. So, I'm not saying this as like a anti-Trump guy at all because there's I called his win in 2016. I said 2024 would be his to lose. So, I was right on that front. He

[03:53] lose. So, I was right on that front. He doesn't understand I think economics you savvy or smart he gets finance like I studied finance but economics is a different branch you know but the point is he like today there was a clip of him

[04:08] being like are the great lakes connected and I was like Jesus Christ he's learning geography today and earlier this week he was like learning tariffs this week he was like learning tariffs so I don't think that you know in

[04:20] business especially there's two kinds of leaders there are those who surround who are experts and they might still follow their gut and instinct, but it's kind of like a weighted average, you know,

[04:35] feedback that they distill and then come up with a recommendation. And then there are others who are just like fly off the seat of their pants, shoot first, ask later. And if we're going to be objective, Donald Trump is the second.

[04:48] It's not like he sits there and goes read Adam Smith Wealth of Nations or reads, you know, economic policy white papers and then comes out and, you know, papers and then comes out and, you know, he does none of that. So, he doesn't

[05:02] really understand American consumers because American consumers, many of them don't even want to work 5 days in an office. They're not going to go work in a stupid plant. Not that

[05:16] plant, by the way. And American consumers are sure as hell not going to go buy an iPhone for $3,000. So, he doesn't get American consumers because what he's describing is not really even, I think, what most

[05:31] Americans would want to happen once you take them through this situation. But the reason ultimately why he kind of comes out, says something, and then backtracks is because he doesn't understand finance either. What ended up

[05:45] happening is he thought that just because America economically and militarily is this big massive thing that it could dictate to others. But what ended up happening is not so much that the stock market crashed and he

[05:59] panicked. It's more that the bond prices reacted a certain way where his whole bet is to try to create and induce a recession, cool down the economy to ultimately get the Federal Reserve to

[06:15] bring down interest rates. Now, a cynic would say that's a man with a lot of debt that cares a lot about what the cost of money interest is. So, he's

[06:27] trying to bring that down. But what ended up happening is a lot of foreign holders, creditors of US debt, Japan actually, America's so-called ally, they actually, America's so-called ally, they dumped American bonds, thinking this is

[06:41] going to be a [ __ ] show. We don't want to hold this. And then interest rates went higher because now America had to give a bigger incentive to people to buy give a bigger incentive to people to buy their debt. So that you could spin it

[06:55] all you want. Art of the deal winning. He's a [ __ ] is all that is to it. He's a [ __ ] is all that is to it. His bet backfired. Just that simple. This was all about bringing interest rates down. But the opposite happened.

[07:09] Interest rates started to go up. So he realized he had to capitulate because the cost of money was going to go up. The stock market was going to continue The stock market was going to continue to go down. Um and ultimately tariffs do

[07:21] to go down. Um and ultimately tariffs do lead to smaller economies, less employment. So, it's unfortunate. Now, let's segue. Yeah, it doesn't really have an effect on us today. And I actually don't even complain. I mean,

[07:37] I'll make fun of things online cuz I'm just that kind of guy maybe, but it I not like we're sitting on all this inventory or we're like shipping parts from China and now we got to think of warehousing them. It doesn't affect us

[07:52] warehousing them. It doesn't affect us in directly in the near term. But in the long run, it's a bit like when interest rates uh during the end of Zer zero interest rate phenomenon when inflation went up, interest rates shot

[08:05] up. So as companies are like, hey, it's more expensive to do things now. Eventually they do scale back marketing. Yeah. Includes advertising. So that Yeah. Includes advertising. So that affects everybody. So my gut is that

[08:18] like many other things that Trump says, it is just a lot of noise and distraction. I don't necessarily think this will get to a place where but the damage some of it has already been done because if you are um you know if you

[08:33] are a decision maker you look at America like the crazy unstable chick that is not going to be consistent and reliable. So that's not good. But again does it

[08:46] affect us? Not really. like the broader fundamental trends of Avod and YouTube but I mean you could see that it's going to have effects and we are not immune to that for sure it's an external event that we don't have control over and that

[09:01] episode which is all about the COVID crisis which wre havoc across the world a few years back um talk about how that hit and how it immediately affected

[09:13] watch mojo when everything kind of shut down on that day in March Sure. Well, let's go back actually to December because there were murmurss and you you would you got a sense that, hey, this is maybe a bigger deal. Obviously,

[09:27] you know, I'm not an expert on pandemics and all that. Uh, but then fast forward, business trip and people are talking about it. Um, and I remember it was our and he just said, this was like early March, but he was like, no, he's like,

[09:43] would talk about the direction of the wind but all things that I was like okay you know again like listening to others to come up to a conclusion so March 12th to come up to a conclusion so March 12th um yeah I mean my birthday uh woke up

[09:57] um yeah I mean my birthday uh woke up saw news that schools were shut down um we had already started like we knew that this was going to happen so like we were you know ideally let's say we would have sent everybody home on let's say March

[10:09] 14th or 15th but March 12th when schools got shut down and it was like lockdown. we're like, "Okay, everybody go home. Most of you are already ready. Thank god

[10:21] Most of you are already ready. Thank god we had made investments in cloud. Um you know, we had moved all of our network to the cloud and technically people could work. Again, we had to find shortcuts." But yeah, like we immediately, again,

[10:34] gratitude and perspective, we're like, "Look, it's easier for us to do this." "Look, it's easier for us to do this." So the tea went home and basically um it was clear that it wasn't going to be like a few days and yeah I mean I won't

[10:47] lie that was one moment when like many I thought it was like horrible and the world would end type of thing. It was kind of doomsday scenario you know I felt we were like in communist era Yugoslavia. No no no

[11:00] hate there. I love all those countries now. Croatia, Baza and all that. I was like, you know, they were letting three people in and it was like you walk this way, you walk that way. It was like a just, you know, dystopian. It was a

[11:13] bizarre time. Um, but what ended up happening was, yeah, basically half of the world, it was like Thanos snapped his finger and half of the world kind of got the impact right away. if you're in hospitality, if you're in, you know,

[11:27] restaurants, travel, sports, a lot of things, you know, like in Montreal, Just for Laughs in Septu Sole had to shut down. Um, they had to file for bankruptcy protection because you couldn't do shows. Um, but we actually

[11:40] ended up benefiting because people were locked at home and home entertainment kind of shot up and people were watching more videos and we benefited doubly. And at the time I did actually have some guilt just as a decent human being cuz I

[11:53] was like most people you know we will get the tsunami wave eventually and we did but at first people were also not like producing shows for Hollywood so

[12:06] they would just be kind of like watching watch Mojo top 10s and everything else on YouTube. So we ended up actually having you know in 2020 a very good year. Um obviously you could see

[12:20] slowdown because okay travelers you know travel advertisers were not advertising Live Nations not promoting shows you know but overall people still had to sell toilet paper and whatever and run ads. So we kind of you know again I was

[12:34] the team was safe and sound and not losing their mind. Um, and then yeah, I would say we eventually were like, you know, we eventually felt, I think, more of the ripple effects over time, but, you know,

[12:51] that just went up on your YouTube channel, so go check that out over on channel, so go check that out over on Watch Mojo. Uh, we want to know how did CO ultimately affect you? Uh, did it have positive changes in the end? Are

[13:04] you still recovering? Is everything back to normal or is it a completely new normal now? So, go weigh in on that poll on our YouTube channel and we'll revisit those results at the end of the podcast. Um, it's interesting because in March of

[13:18] 2020, I was preparing to sign a contract COVID kind of put the brakes on that. So, uh, what I ended up doing was freelancing for 4 months for Watch Mojo

[13:31] and ultimately, uh, ended up coming on full-time later on in the summer in July. So, it kind of, uh, impeded my my process of of entering the company, but, uh, didn't, uh, didn't really, uh, ruin anything. Although, it

[13:45] was a different environment when I did start working full-time because it was home was complete and there was kind of no going back anymore. So, yeah. And the reason why we actually I remember vividly I was like let us just transfer

[13:59] vividly I was like let us just transfer people home and there's computer setups and there's some things that I was like it was a bit unfair I felt to the team really managing the transition to add like here's another person who's never

[14:11] worked with us and it's like culture and communication we were able to kind of not skip miss a beat because we had 15 years of experience we had culture we had communication we had a kind of like social systems of you know conduct and

[14:24] etiquette But I do think it it's hard like if any company you know there's so many startups that started then you know and and without a doubt uh you know timing matters. It's like if you start a business after 911 well guess what it's

[14:37] going to I think the the the person or people who were affected the most were penglins. Their reputation changed for sure. They never had the same reputation after they were blamed for everything. They were blamed for everything. Uh

[14:50] Robert Albertton from Politico said that CO has elements of fear that we felt after 911, the financial worry that we experienced in 2008 and the unknown that surrounds a natural disaster like a hurricane or a tornado or tornado all

[15:03] rolled into one thing. Um how much do you equate, you know, COVID with something like 911? What was the impact globally? Um do you think it's comparable? Well, I think co really because it was a true global thing um

[15:18] remember again I've always talked about the encyclopedias. I remember when I'd look at old hockey like Stanley Cup champions of which the Canadians are champions of which the Canadians are tops with 24. Um I remember like in 1917

[15:31] the Stanley Cup was um cancelled because there was a outbreak of influenza in like the Seattle was supposed to host it I think. Hello Jorge. Um, and so there always remember that. And then apparently there was another pandemic in

[15:46] like the ' 50s, which nobody really talked about compared to the 1917 first global thing. This really showed whether you're rich or poor, whether you're, you know, western or eastern or whatever. It was it was really a crazy

[16:01] phenomenon. Um, look, 911 as a finance grad who lived in Montreal but was looking to work on Wall Street and all that obviously was profound in the sense

[16:13] that it was an it was a terrorist when I say quotation marks. I I'll explain it. That's not my point, but it was a terrorist attack on American soil. It wasn't like Pearl Harbor. So, I think to Americans it was a big deal. I also used

[16:29] to be like, "Hey, I was I could have been a on a plane as a victim or like working on Wall Street as a victim." Um, but I did understand, and I don't mean to be uh controversial at all, I did understand why a lot of people around

[16:43] the world were like, "Well, America goes around dropping bombs on other people, so this is the first time." Okay, you know, some sympathy, but let's calm down. Um, but I I just felt like yeah, like in some ways like we've been in

[16:57] World War II since 911. And I know everybody hates it when I say that, but if you think about it from 911, we've slowly seen like they never called World War I World War I. Then it was the Great War. So, I kind of feel like that set

[17:11] War. So, I kind of feel like that set off a chain event that does there's a off a chain event that does there's a through line to Ukraine, Russia, um Iran being where it is now is really a reflection of George Bush's another

[17:25] dumbass like Trump who took it to the next level. Um, and I'm also not There's good parts of Bush, good parts of Trump, and many bad parts. Um, but that America could have ever done because it precipitated its fall in the

[17:41] sense that the average age of an empire is 250 years old. Next year, 2026 is America's 250 year anniversary. I do not think America is going anywhere. I think America could very well continue to have its best century. Uh, looking ahead,

[17:55] just look at market value of most of the top firms are American. You know, that's where still you have all this innovation. But if we bring it all together, things like tariffs and things like a erratic president, like if I

[18:09] showed up every day, yeah, sometimes I'm fiery, but if every day there was chaos going here, tomorrow we're going there." You guys wouldn't be able to function. happening?" Right? So imagine at Trump's level. So I feel like COVID really was

[18:23] the first global thing where whether you were like some villager in Pakistan or like living in Kenya or or wherever it affected you. Now, again, I hate the together. We're not. There was a lot of people who could go up to the, you know,

[18:38] who lived in, let's say, New York City in their cramped apartment who had to in their cramped apartment who had to work and couldn't go anywhere versus the executive who could go and work out of his Hampton residence for 4 months and

[18:50] nobody knew better, right? So, even that wasn't that global in that sense. This is a bit different. I feel like the world does seem to be on the precipice world does seem to be on the precipice of this massive thing. Um, but we said

[19:04] that about Trump in the first term. Um, and so we're saying it again. And I feel like even though like I find Germany in the 1920, and I'm not like a historian, studied that more than most normal people would study any topic. Germany in

[19:20] the 1920s had a lot of similarities. um and 1930s to be fair started off with the 20s but mainly 1930s has a lot of 20s but mainly 1930s has a lot of similarity with America now whether it's

[19:33] inflation whether it's an aging statesman Hindenburg Biden making way for an erratic leader um but I I don't think I don't like the Trump as Hitler talk that's crazy right but I don't think that as a so as as a global

[19:48] society I don't think that we would maybe this is just naivity on my part, but I don't think we would let another World War II type scenario happen at this stage. Well, I think war would be very different. So, a few years ago when

[20:04] I was at St. Petersburg, purely economic, nothing political, um, we talked about at the time, it was still like AI is much more in the news, but we talked about machines and and I was basically saying how the real

[20:18] belligerent are no longer governments. If you think about it, even the US got form of military. If you think about it, it's expansionism and all that. Um, so

[20:30] but if you think of corporations, Microsoft, Alphabet, corporations, Microsoft, Alphabet, Google, Facebook, Meta, um, Apple, uh, all of them, they are cut across borders. They have soldiers across

[20:43] different state lines. Um, they are the ones that are harnessing AI. You are ones that are harnessing AI. You are absolutely going to have look at drones. That's not even the future of of war. That's the present. Yeah. Russia,

[20:58] Ukraine, when they study it, it'll be like who had the most drones? Yes. Russia is an industrial mighty power and they have the population. Long-term they would destroy Ukraine just based on replenishing troops and

[21:12] just based on replenishing troops and all that. Um, but it'll boil down to the drones. I believe that just the conflict in and of itself caused huge innovation in drone technology. Yeah, 10,000%. Yeah. The same way that World War II led

[21:24] to a lot of advances and all wars sadly do lead to uh I mean look the reason why powerful is because the Germans were inventors and that's why Germany from 1850 till 1914 was the dominant thing.

[21:38] it was it had surpassed the UK and it was in some ways the leading um empire so to speak but yeah no so just to get so to speak but yeah no so just to get back on track it is possible but I don't

[21:51] think wars will look like World War II and three I think it will be a and three I think it will be a combination of cyber warfare will be a lot of drones but make no mistake about it at some point your cops are going to

[22:03] it at some point your cops are going to be drones and cameras everywhere and robots and dogs And that's where we're headed. And all those will be developed by corporations who are effectively stateless. They're they're omniresent,

[22:17] so to speak. Yeah. Basically everything we've seen in Black Mirror up until this point. Yeah. Um so you mentioned the Thanos slap snap that kind of erased Thanos slap snap that kind of erased half of most uh like profit, you know,

[22:30] in in in many industries. Um how did it affect things outside of outside of media? And I say that with the note that you know we had a travel channel which

[22:42] you know kind of was affected you know ultimately because of those the travel industry was devastated but our little travel channel wasn't able to you know either. So yeah, I mean look, the reality is the reason why I made the

[22:56] call to pause mojo travels, which was really something that came to me when we were having strategic conversations with Time, Time had Time magazine people, Sports Illustrated, Fortune, but they also had Travel and Leisure and they

[23:11] Time magazine and video? Could you take SI?" I was like, "Hell yeah, we could do that. we already do content that would fit really well on video, but I was like, don't give me your bougie brand where everybody's going to be really

[23:23] really protective. So, they're like, we got travel and leisure. Like, that's, you know, that's easy to play with, right? So, we we didn't end up doing anything with time, but that led to Mojo Travels, and that's why the name like I

[23:37] wanted a name that was really not Mojo related, actually. Um, but it was kind okay, we'll just go with Mojo Travels. Now, during COVID, you could argue you could have done a really cool like fantasy like aspirational, oh, I can't

[23:52] wait to go back to all these places when the lockdown ends. But I did kind of the lockdown ends. But I did kind of feel like word war so to speak and less is more and adding complexity when the team is shifting to working from home

[24:05] seemed like a very bastardly you know it's kind of like bad analogy like Hitler opening a second front during World War II like that's when I've read so much about Hitler that's I always think of that like don't start a second

[24:18] front at the wrong time. So for us, Mojo Travels, given everything, we just made watch Mojo, Miss Mojo. We kept plays because gaming was obviously still very much relevant. But yeah, no, but if we're going to be honest, all of the

[24:33] trends that had already started that was benefiting YouTube and the watch mult, but were like a rounding error in the grand scheme of things, were accelerated by co. Mhm. So it wasn't like even the Thanos analogy where okay half the

[24:47] have to figure out what's what. And I also did think that everybody else that was spared got hit afterwards one way or another either by you know if you were Amazon you had to probably invest a lot to meet demand at first but then you're

[25:03] hung over. It's like anything else. Oh you hired too many people. All the tech firms that overhired during COVID yeah then they had to let people go. So we also again it sounds like such a first class problem and I would never say it

[25:15] outside of this context but like we grew a lot in 2020 and we had our best year in 21. So then when Zer the interest rate phenomenon uh interest rates started to go up and there was a retrenchment nothing had changed in our

[25:29] straight line like this but at that moment you know we got the ricochet the the hangover effect. Uh but all the trends really did just accelerate. You know, even you've heard me say that YouTube, why is YouTube unlike Netflix

[25:43] revolutionary? Because it changed what quality programming is. All of a sudden, important meeting on a Zoom call. Nobody's going to be like, "You're lazy." Whereas before, you have to put on the suit, get on the plane, go there,

[25:57] take the stupid cab, get there, realize you're at the wrong building, eventually meeting, but oh, I had to do this meeting." So similarly with content and storytelling, all of a sudden just doing

[26:09] Zoom like Q&As's was fine. Audiences really change production values. Don't get me wrong, there was more of a hunger for like shiny stage productions and big big productions. But it just accelerated everything and it actually frankly uh

[26:26] put like I would say it moved up the demise of traditional media by like a the uh one of the interesting things about let's say television is that I I remember the the late night television hosts transferring to working from from

[26:41] home, filming from home, doing their their live their their tapings or if it was a live show and the quality just being absolutely terrible because they were just learning like all the rest of us. It was kind of hilarious to see.

[26:56] of us, but there is a fundamental difference that those folks were never programmed to work in that kind of bare bones. If you really think of it, if have is your mic, you really only have your word to make people laugh, right?

[27:11] But if you have props and if you have this and so a lot of these late night shows, they're just made, it's just a big production, you know? It's just a big production, you know? It's just a lot of smoke and mirrors. So when you

[27:23] actually took a Kimmel or a Fallon or uh all of those talented, you Fallon or uh all of those talented, you know, entertainers, but you remove that whole production, it wasn't also their strength, you know, they weren't like

[27:39] some of them are great interviews. They weren't necessarily the funniest comedians, right? It was just that like they had this bag of skills that really "Hey folks, how are you?" you know, and without that it just it wasn't the same

[27:55] thing, right? And then at the same time, you still had a lot of YouTubers doing you still had a lot of YouTubers doing what they were doing and so the society kind of shifted faster. Yeah. Co was also a reset in a lot of ways and like

[28:09] of working from home, which we're still doing now. It's become the norm and it's more efficient in a lot of ways. There are drawbacks. I miss seeing you guys more often in person, but you know, there's there's also added efficiencies.

[28:22] have to get on the plane to go to that meeting. And we do this every single day in traffic like we used to. So, there's definitely benefits, but what are the ways in what other ways was it a reset?

[28:35] Well, look, I think what you're seeing today is companies that are int companies. Yeah. But people, leaders and managers who are intellectually honest and um you know, don't don't pee on your leg and say it's

[28:50] leg and say it's raining. They would probably act a different way if they didn't have like massive real estate leases that they signed for 10 years. And all of a sudden, you also had an entire

[29:04] organizational makeup that did have that kind of mid-level manager walking the floor kind of who's doing what, who's who's not back from lunch. Oh, look, who's not back from lunch. Oh, look, it's 4:30. They're not here. So, I

[29:17] personally feel like it removed a lot of like the the noise, the filler, the song and dance that is really just [ __ ] It doesn't really add value. It's like old school power. dynamics and stuff like that. And in some ways, if you are

[29:34] at the office 9 to5, you're not actually an assassin or disciplined with your time because you're on company dime. You know, these are human psychology things. It's I'm not even talking about watch mojo. Just

[29:48] when you're at the office, you might take a bit longer to go to grab a lunch. Oh, the bathroom break. Now you have your phone. You're lost for 40 minutes. you go to get coffee, you take the scenic route, so you're not necessarily

[30:04] even all that productive. Now, the only thing that applied to us is a lot of our team members need quiet. When I visited Vice, Shane Smith was taking me and he like, Shane, what the [ __ ] do people do in here? And then he was like, "This is

[30:17] where they edit. They need quiet." I was like, "Yeah, that actually makes sense this video." And people were like, "Shut up. I'm working. You know, I'm editing." But we did have a lot of time wasted and sometimes I was like feels like a high

[30:32] school cafeteria type of thing. And that's part of it. That's part of culture and and societies and subgroups. But now I feel one I'll be fair. The slackers, some people that never fit, but that's those are exceptions. I can't

[30:46] say all these idiot. No, you guys crushed it. You all worked really well. You all stayed prof. Now the team gets credit for having a culture. I've always said don't be rude to people. So, we kind of had this culture already where

[30:59] three, you have to give it to Tom for step four, you would continue that just because you're on a Zoom or Hangout or or Ghat. But if you always had this kind of toxic culture where you're like, "That's Johnson's problem. Screw him."

[31:13] Well, it would just get amplified now that you're working, right? So, for me, and I know it was always whenever we'd bring up work from home, I felt people employer, he wants us back." I was like, "I don't want to see you. I miss you

[31:26] all, but I don't we don't need to be here, you know. So, very long story here, you know. So, very long story short, I think the best companies are short, I think the best companies are those that find that middle ground, but

[31:39] I also think any company where they're not doing the kind of work we do, whether it's sales or creative or innovation or certain things, I don't think if working from home is the way to go. Yes, you are more efficient with

[31:53] go. Yes, you are more efficient with your time, but you get into this routine and you actually drive yourself further into obsolescence and irrelevance faster. There is this element of being with your fellow soldiers in a common

[32:07] area. It just makes you understand what's what. There are some distractions, there is some waste, but the net is more positive. And I do feel that that is also happening where some leaders don't have the courage and

[32:20] confidence to say hey man I understand we've done this for the last few years but it's time to go back and this is why I just feel again so grateful I personally do believe that I I'm very constant I think the best organizations

[32:33] constant I think the best organizations are in office we have a very unique workflow and tasks where for us it makes a ton of sense to actually largely let people work from home and My definition of hybrid is not the [ __ ] like

[32:47] Monday, Tuesdays because that's just disruptive. It's more for meetings, some those who are physically in the same town, but for the rest, I'm sure you're time. You know, you might take a break as you're uploading something. You're

[33:02] has less stress on you because you got your [ __ ] shorts cleaned. Do you know what I mean? So, I see it very like big picture like that. But I feel like negatives. those that should be in the office will not be. It's going to harm

[33:16] of companies that don't need to be in an office that are forcing people back because they got like leases and that's also not going to be constructive. Yeah. And in our case, we hired outside of our country even in many instances for

[33:29] people who are are international. So there's no possibility of them coming to work in the office. Um but are you lobbying now for No, I agree. Look, we we always had a pretty remote like pre-COVID like it was a bit more than

[33:42] you would think because we also had international channels, right? But absolutely even the core team on Watch Mojo English or Miss Mojo, you know, like a few people even producing the show. Yvon is in Mexico. You know, this

[33:54] morning I was in a meeting um for Miss Mojo, Tyler, he's based in Brooklyn, you know, our other colleague Tori who manages a lot of the the the writers, she's also in New York, you know, and we have people all over, you know. I also,

[34:07] not to be a [ __ ] about this, I also think we don't really take advantage of our global team, you know, like even like when stories break, we're super quick. It's incredible. Like I'm always like in awe on Twitter like fanboying

[34:19] going, "Oh, I can't believe how amazing we are." But I sometimes go given what like, we could be running a 247 like news operation almost. Yeah. with all all the time zones and like you go to bed, you finish your task, you pass the

[34:34] puck to the next guy. Um, but again, I don't complain because overall everybody does a great job. But, you know, well, something interesting to consider moving forward. Um, tell me about the effect on the ad market. I know we had mentioned

[34:47] because people were home, they didn't have much to do, they were watching YouTube, and so that was a great time, but then reality kind of set in after. advertising in this case in economic lingo, I'm sure we could ask Professor

[35:01] is more of like there's trailing indicators and leading indicators type of thing. So obviously advertising was like a trailing. It took a bit of while business as usual. We're going to be confident in the storm and then day two

[35:15] they show their true colors. They're like panic, shut down, go home. And eventually when they scale back, they do lay off people. And I think it's in that context that it's almost unconscionable not to also reduce marketing. You know,

[35:31] it's it's very bad to lay people off. It affects people. It affects families. You personally have had a hard time letting people go. I've gone a bit better. And we've never had Mel Conwood like layoffs of that kind. But eventually, yeah, if

[35:43] don't even know what the [ __ ] these people were doing to begin with, it's still sponsoring and spending all this money." So, you start to see a a reduction in ad spend. And we are like a great proxy for, you know, we have all

[35:59] all these different videos. So, you know, we don't get hit as much, but when there's like air coming out of a bag, there's just less, you know, fill. But yeah, what ended up happening is

[36:15] happening is um TV was on a collision course with the internet and then 2020 just was the tipping point where the internet took over. Mhm. And then frankly, I don't think TV will ever recover. For a long

[36:29] time, people were like, well, TV is not like print or radio. It will be different because of news, because of sports. But what ended up happening is there was no sports. So a lot of companies could actually take the

[36:43] opportunity to kind of be like hm how valuable is sports how important is sports programming and the answer is a lot but what happened the leading a lot but what happened the leading platforms Amazon Prime Google others

[36:57] stepped up to buy those rights away from really uh as I said it's just accelerated every trend and that's why now the internet has far surpassed TV and you know I

[37:12] think frankly the internet is TV now like YouTube like the combination of YouTube but even like Reddit you know that kind of like news happens I'll go to X I'll go to X to real time it's a real-time search engine even though the

[37:26] search engine sucks asson but but ultimately I don't turn on the news there's no point you're not going to find out what happens but right away you find out what happens online so I would say that I guess co's

[37:43] long-term eventual impact was making the internet become what TV was. We got poll results in for the poll that we put up on our YouTube channel. Uh how did co change the world for you? It was actually, you know, a fairly even split.

[37:59] 38% said that they're uh everything is back to normal. 27% said they're still recovering. 19% said it's a completely new normal and ultimately uh 13% said it ultimately created a positive change. So uh positivity is in the minority. Uh

[38:16] most people say that things are back to back to normal and you know how about you? What did it do for you? Well, I think ultimately it was a positive change because I really enjoy working from home. I get to spend a lot more

[38:28] time with my kids than I would have if I was still working in an office. Uh so I benefits of the be the the negatives as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I'm my daughters are 17 soon and 14 and I think

[38:41] even my like my teammates like my colleagues, you guys are surprised how your kids when they were young. Like I was very lucky. I worked like a madman, picking them up from school, dinner most nights at home and like so it was like I

[38:55] can't complain and I love those moments. So I'm like I tell everybody I'm like do that and I do think co makes it easy because I'm like you also had all day to you know do work and turn on the dishwasher and you know earlier again I

[39:07] had a meeting and I was like I have a podcast in an hour. I need to fix this situation in the kitchen and you know it's just it's it's doesn't affect my work. I was still so it it's it's just a big game changer. I will say this when I

[39:20] big game changer. I will say this when I look at that um I I do feel though that there was this like lost generation factor of people that probably did not

[39:32] factor of people that probably did not recover and I hear from a lot of CEOs like when I was in well I don't want to say the city because it'll be pretty but I was in a place it wasn't like in New York I was in some other city okay and

[39:44] know I got to meet him and gone to weird for him to say this, but he was like he's like he's like, "I went through a big depression because he was like, I was used to coming into the

[39:56] office every day." And he he apparently went to the office every day during CO anyway. And he was like, "I just feel like I lost my anchor." He's like, "I thought like, oh, I have my hobbies. I have my wife, my kids, or whatever." But

[40:10] he was like, "My anchor was this work." Mhm. He was like coming in and being the Mhm. He was like coming in and being the boss and this and that. And I kind of was like I do get that because I also had to find like the glass half full

[40:25] took me a while cuz I was somebody that I consider myself aloof. I consider although I know that I'm not introverted but I do like that solitude. Yeah. By

[40:37] choice. But what ended up happening is you had this solitude by force by necessity and yeah like you don't talk like it's weird like when you start off and then in the end you have a team everybody's in their own little bubble

[40:50] and so when when the gentleman was speaking to me when I would meet other CEOs after or not necessarily CEOs but anybody that like managed a team that was really like had a great team and they didn't necessarily have specific

[41:03] tasks it was managing processes and teams and all that that became a big refrain that it was like people who were like by all for all purposes intents and purposes super successful but internally they were just like my life is upside

[41:16] down and I have to you know cope or whatever but I do also think that there forces and their lives were changed and you just they fell off the grid but so I'm I'm guess I'm not surprised by the results. Yep. Same here. There was a

[41:31] for Laughs around this time also. Do you want to touch on that before we wrap it up? Yeah. Well, I mean this was to be honest with you before um it was in 2017 honest with you before um it was in 2017 we were approached by ICM to join them

[41:45] in their bid to acquire um Just for Laughs. And this is a video that Rebecca Laughs. And this is a video that Rebecca and I did six years ago. Um and we were in the end not part of the the the the consortium that got them which made

[41:58] sense. Uh Montreal Canadians bought them. They owned Jazz Festival and them. They owned Jazz Festival and Aventco. So that made sense and then uh the Montreal Canadians brought in Bel Media who is are their partner. So it it

[42:12] Media who is are their partner. So it it made a ton of sense. But during COVID just for laughs took a hit. Circus to Sole outright just filed for bankruptcy and you know as much as I'm like a pragmatic business person and I

[42:25] things to get to you. They do get to you. I mean it wasn't personal but I was a bit bummed that we couldn't buy this amazing institution that was one of the beacons of watch mojo the way I used to say like we're the latest media and

[42:40] following in the footsteps of sole just for laughs etc. But I won't lie, if we would have bought them, it could have been fatal for Watch Mojo because revenue stopped coming in. You still have all these employees. I personally

[42:54] would have hated to let people go, but that is the right decision. So, but it Mojo. Um but yeah, no, so it was like another lesson that everything happens for a reason, even if it's a painful lesson

[43:09] and it takes you a long time to realize why. But it it it was like we dodged a hindsight, does do you feel fortunate that that it didn't uh pan out the way that you were hoping initially? I am such a crazy massochist. I still would

[43:23] have liked I feel like I I feel like Watch Mojo and Just for Laughs, the combination of like comedy, entertainment, uh digital media plus uh events. I do feel like that could have been interesting. But I also don't care

[43:37] like it's in the past and it wasn't meant to be. But I I do feel like not that I mean look it was let's also be clear ICM talent agency since acquired by CIA possibly partly because of the just

[43:53] for laughs I I just realized like they needed to join something bigger because that was obviously a financial hit. um the Montreal Canadians and Bel Media couldn't get it to where so I've also learned I'm just a mere you know servant

[44:08] of whomever I'm not that special but I was very very bullish and confident that you know managing people like pushing people and not pretending like I knew what to do in running a festival and as you know we could have totally taken the

[44:24] SNL uh Lauren Michaels route earlier on instead of doing top 10 factual I was we were in sketch comedy, right? So, the goal was to build Just for Laughs, goal was to build Just for Laughs, not into SNL or Matt TV, but in that

[44:37] footstep like that would what what it would look like in the 21st century. But it wasn't meant to be. It's all good. What it's interesting to think about what may have been though, definitely. But fortunately, Watch Mojo is still

[44:49] that I realize we could do that tomorrow. You don't actually need Just it because it's really just a stage. It's a stage where even if they pay Chris uh Hart or Chris Rock gazillions to come and perform, Chris Rock retains

[45:05] that footage the rights, he may want to go sell it to Netflix. So, it's not like they there was any IP or anything. It was really, I don't mind admitting it, a lot of pride that, hey, this fantastic asset and you know, you have to learn to

[45:18] manage your pride to avoid fatal mistakes as that surely could have been. Absolutely. Next week, uh, speaking of pride, we're talking about being a made man in entrepreneurship. Uh, do you want to give a little preview of what is to

[45:31] come on the next episode? Sure. I mean, the the concept is not that crazy. It's just that like historically entrepreneurs were not people that even Richard Branson's or whatever. They're ultimately sellers, marketers, people

[45:43] who walked the beat of their own drum and would start things that would become businesses and they would eventually get to a cash flow positive situation. And even if they used debt to expand, it was kind of like a very different thing.

[45:57] They were just cash flow positive, you know, it was like that was how they made know, it was like that was how they made their their fortune, so to speak. Um, unfortunately, in the last 15, 20 years with the explosion of venture capital,

[46:11] which has brought some good things, it's also brought a lot of bad things. One of funding. You know, it's like you would get an article written about you in the Wall Street Journal or back in the day Techrunch if you raised money. But if

[46:25] like boring. So in our industry, the main man isn't raising money. But it's you got to do a deal. you do have to either get some third party whether it's an investor or a strategic

[46:43] buyer that comes and you know sniffs around kicks the tires and gives you a around kicks the tires and gives you a bit of validation and so as an entrepreneur in 2015 or 16 when like Ernston Young was like do you want to

[46:57] enter the entrepreneurship of the year I was like absolutely ma so not like yes I know I'm out there but I'm actually not seeking the limelight in that sense fine." But then I was like, "You know what? It's not bad if a big accounting

[47:11] what? It's not bad if a big accounting firm comes and vets us. If we do win, it's a source of pride for the team, but it's also shows that, okay, this isn't a fugazi. It's like a real business." So similarly, as the 2010s went by and we

[47:27] were more and more successful, I won't lie, I had this thing in the back of my mind that I was like, you know what, being independent, even if you're profitable, doesn't really give you that kind

[47:39] really give you that kind of thing on your resume, if you care about it, that these days an entrepreneur, it's if you sell your business or somebody comes as an outsider and validates it. So, we'll

[47:51] bad, and ugly of that next week. Cool. Should be an interesting one. Thank you great to speak with you. Likewise. Thank you to all the viewers, and we'll see you again next week. Same time, same place. Cheers.

[48:06] place. Cheers. 90 days.