YouTube's Long Game — Full Breakdown & Transcript

[00:09] language. If you think you may be offended, switch off [Applause] [Music]

[00:22] Watch Mojo and the Inside Mojo podcast. I am your host Rob and with me as always is Watch Mojo's co-founder and CEO Ashkan Carbis Fushan who's back once more from the great city of New York to join us here from home in Montreal.

[00:37] We're getting close to the end of this. We're getting close to the end. Um it's lie. Last night I was waking up. I was so disoriented. I was like where am I? Am I in a hotel room? Am I home? And it was just uh it's good to be back home

[00:51] but uh very bit. I mean 3 weeks I'd never been back to back to back to New York 3 weeks. So it's a great city but when you travel that much you just you know it's hard to stay sane basically. You know travel is exhausting. I don't

[01:03] know how people who fly you know regularly week to week do it because it's just you probably and you have to be disciplined to like drink and be up in the hospital. I mentioned this because I did two Montreal LA trip.

[01:17] Well, LA and then the next week San Diego for Comic-Con and when I came back was warm and I was just driving around. I was getting more and more dehydrated. palpitations and then I ended up in the hospital. I was fine but so yeah. No,

[01:31] you have to be you have to be careful. Cool. Well, the uh theme of this week's episode is uh kind of baseball related. We're playing the long game. What inning is it? and uh or if we're talking about a best of seven series, what game is it?

[01:45] U in the context of YouTube specifically. Um but before we get into that, uh you're working on a kind of different project right now. Can you tell us about this project for Sound Mojo that Sure. I thought you meant the

[01:58] special strategic operation uh that, you know, lured me to New York, but no, again, I was very lonely and bored most of the time. Um and I was just um after of the time. Um and I was just um after we did the top 10 Persian songs and the

[02:13] community reacted well, they were like suggesting other songs and it dawned on me. I'm like the Farsy language is so lush and rich that you could take basic words and when you write like lyrics when you hear it, it just sounds like

[02:29] very complex words. So I remember like one song I was like if you translate this into English it's so pedestrian and then you know being a wordssmith you know I'm not a lyricist or I wasn't I was like I just started to play with it

[02:42] and I would just kind of try to make it nicer add metaphors and symbolism and alliteration and then I was like trying to match like translating adapting and matching words with the rhythm is like something that drew me. So I started

[02:55] when I was actually in Buenos Cyrus I adapted one song and that was it. I was kind of like addicted. So, in the last week, I translated six more songs. So, basically, we have seven songs that I've

[03:10] basically, we have seven songs that I've taken from, you know, Iranian music. Um, and I kind of like am rearranging them. Like, if one might be more poppy, I might make it more hard rock. You know, it's like speaks to my influences in

[03:23] hard rock and rap and electronica music. Um, and yeah, and I mean, six years ago, Joe, who's who's one of the gentlemen who helps us produce this podcast, I recruited him for Sound Mojo, which was to be like a label. And again, I did

[03:38] to be like a label. And again, I did what I usually do, which is, you know, pass the puck first instead of taking a shot. And we were kind of like recruiting artists and featuring them, but there was no real through line. It

[03:50] was just people that were interested to be showcased on our network. My band was one of the one of those band was it? Okay. I didn't want to be pres I do I you know but it was like what was the affinity and and what anyway but so

[04:05] after six seven songs I was like we could just probably do an album and ideas of like how to package it and distribute it and market it and commercialize it. Um and then because you guys recommended I buy a like

[04:19] you guys recommended I buy a like professional mic for the podcast. I was like, you know what? When I'm trying to explain to people that I'm translating, think I'm doing a direct translation. So, at first, a lot of like Iranians who

[04:31] are into the music and who know me were like, well, this isn't a direct translation. I'm like, I know. I don't want to directly translate it. I want to adapt it. Yeah. And so, I was like, who cares? Like, you're an entrepreneur. You

[04:45] that I'm planning on singing, but I was like, I'll just record a demo to And then people were like, "Oh, I get what you're doing. That's actually pretty neat." So now I actually have a few musicians who are like leaning in

[04:57] think of the logistics of like, "Okay, how do we do this?" So it could be all virtual like they have the lyrics. We would get the mechanical license because I think the best practice and I would never do this without people's blessing

[05:11] is to reach out to the artists. But some of these artists have passed away like you know like there's some you know stars of the 80s and stuff that I would like sometimes I'll email one of the labels like Taran Records and the the

[05:25] there's no website so even that's but yeah so um yeah I mean it's just I like variety I like challenges and so you know I can now add lyricists to my uh multi-hyphenate uh well that's great and

[05:40] it ties in ties in with the revival of the the Iranian channel that uh that channel is going to come back as part of it was one of the 30 channels we launched like a decade ago and it was one of like the 15 that we sunset or

[05:53] paused and I've always said like if we have like a person who could be a strong editorial or if like this that could be a conduit not just to do content when we bring it back it will be in English. I realized like the first one was in Farsy

[06:08] just localizing the content. But I think here the idea is it's more to represent true Iranian culture and history and all that to the global audiences. But it's also it wouldn't make sense like I don't even read or write Farsy. So it wouldn't

[06:23] play to our strengths, you know. So found also somebody um who's going to come and be like the channel manager content lead and then it ties into this. And then the idea is I would I would replicate this formula. I don't know if

[06:36] you ever listen to techno music, but there was a series called Global Underground where like a DJ would record a set in a studio. The first one I think was Tony the Vit in Tel Aviv. But it was popularized by like Paul Oakenfold and

[06:48] Max Graham and Deep Dish and you know Nick Warren and all these like great DJs I used to listen to and it was cool like it would be like Paul Oakenfold in New York or like um you know Nick Warren in Prague and like you kind of felt like

[07:02] and I because I love travel. So, what I'm pretty much going to do is um that formula like take music from other in other languages and then have

[07:14] like hybrid versions to popularize it. Um like in Farsy, most of them are going to be translated to English and there's a method to the madness. But yeah, like if we did a Spanish thing where we take like Spanish songs, I'm not sure if they

[07:28] think that's what I want to do. I want to kind of like cross-pollinate. It we'll see, you know, album by album. But anyway, so I was trying to do the sound

[07:40] mojo thing, and it's very weird how it just came to be. So, life's funny that way. Yeah, we we already have those pieces in in play in in in place, so you teased us that you were going to be meeting uh with with a quite a

[07:55] high-profile business person uh during your recent trip to New York. What can transparent. I mean, it's no big deal. So, basically, uh, as I said, like last, of media companies that were like, "Hey, another year goes by. We're not big on

[08:09] YouTube. Would Mojo be interested in joining our larger organization or of merger?" And even though like the world was very uncertain, I could sense growing interest in YouTube and Avod, hence the what inning are we? We'll get

[08:25] to that in a few minutes. And so, hired an investment bank. um you know I I could do it myself but clearly um you know there's a lot I don't know. So of gave them you know the five or six companies that were we were talking to

[08:41] then they go reach out to a bunch of people. So I was surprised one day they're like well you know how do you feel about talking to Vince McMahon of WWE fame there he is there he is there's Vince. Um and I was like well tell me

[08:56] more. I go I know he sold WWE. ex exited that and now it's like take TKO is UFC that and now it's like take TKO is UFC and WWE it's partly owned by um William Morris Endeavor and I was like well what's Mr. McMahon doing? And they were

[09:10] like, well, you know, he set up a fund to look for sports, media, and be one of like the 15 companies we spoke to. Uh, but it was last second. So, unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to meet him, which is fine. Um, but I was

[09:24] I mean, I I don't I never watched wrestling like in the last 10, 15, 20 years, but like growing up like in the late 80s and 90s, I mean, I would watch WWE like Ultimate Warrior, Hulk Hogan. I know Sting wasn't in W. Like I loved

[09:37] Sting, you know, and he was in the Well, he came to WWE. Yeah. But by then I wasn't really watching that much. Um, and anyway, but but the thing is when I was like, you know what's funny about Vince McMahon is today you hear like

[09:51] creator creator economy influencers vloggers but I'm like it's just McMahon was the quintessential storyteller entrepreneur you know like it's also he built that company with his wife and his daughter you know was

[10:05] looking forward to meeting him but I mean I met so many people that just we couldn't coordinate it Um and so yeah know it's just funny because also life is very you know misconnections like serendipity. You can meet somebody you

[10:19] know seven years ago eight years ago Bell Media when Randy Lennox who speaking of music he was head of Universal Music Canada he and his team discovered Shaniah Twain Justin Bieber the weekend. So he was brought on Bell

[10:35] Media to kind of like push them more global and push them more um to own content, not just be a licenser of content. And Randy, who I really liked character and he was like a you know media guy and storyteller. He took a

[10:51] particular fancy to myself and the company and he really was aggressive. And in 2017, we were really, really close. And like we had five conversations with five different companies, but why I hired a bank is

[11:04] because I realized what I did wrong. I would do it sequentially. I felt like I would be very cheating if I was like talking to five parties at once. That's why you have a bank. The bank could do that. You you kind of stay pure.

[11:17] deal with Bell. But because Bell is owned by um BCE which is like a telco you know they have certain parameters of what the CEO of Bell Media can and

[11:29] cannot do. So in the end we kind of like diverged on the terms. Then I went to Greece and then I came back to London for watch live in London and then we kind of just moved on and they moved on. So it's just very funny how you know if

[11:42] like seven years ago Randy and I would have like said okay let's converge on the terms instead of like you know given his restrictions we diverge you know I would be probably part of bal median watch would be part of b media and I

[11:55] watch would be part of b media and I would be you know very different reality um and it's kind of funny because in my 20 years I've been so lucky to meet so many incredible people you know business people you know I saw I joke that like

[12:10] saw Andre Chevhenko who was a striker playing uh playing and watching soccer and I just saw him and I was like starruck now he's a soccer player and I I love soccer but I get very starruck

[12:23] when I meet business people and entrepreneurs you know there was another because that's a group that is looking at submitting an offer so I do I've learned I don't not saying it to show off but like I saw this this person was

[12:37] very successful very well regarded And then a few weeks later, I don't mind was just meeting his lieutenants for that first meeting. In the second week that first meeting. In the second week or first week, I was in New York and um

[12:49] like, "Wake up. You're like a 47y old man, you know, like why are you getting probably in his 50s anyway. So, well, it's normal. It's people that people craft. This is what I do. I'm a It's my racket. I like entrepreneurship. Cool.

[13:04] other cool people that you've met in your business? Well, I didn't meet Vince to be fair. I mean, Vince, look, I don't doubt that there are things that look, this is I'm sure even if he's now like, let's have a followup with Ash. She may

[13:16] not. But look, I I know that Vince was accused of certain things that on my personally I I I'm not saying I condone, but I also like like with Watch Mojo

[13:28] to do let's say like funniest sitcoms of the 80s, I understand why during the Me Too it was insensitive to put like Bill Cosby on the Cosby Show." But at the same time, if you do like funniest comedians of the 21st century, I don't

[13:41] list, for example. Like you have to separate the craft from the person because you know like I'm sure Stephen Tyler was dating a 14-year-old. You know bad things. So I'm like if you're going to you know it's good for the goose is

[13:56] start to be very selective. So I'm really just commenting on that storyteller entrepreneur that the guy that kind of like built WWE into this like icon. So I mean as a guy who's a builder of a media brand he would have

[14:10] been up there but I mean I I think there's like a few interesting people like I met Jeffrey Katzenberg you know so Jeffrey Katzenberg is the K in so Jeffrey Katzenberg is the K in DreamWorks s uh Spielberg Katzenberg and

[14:24] Geffen and I didn't know this but Spielberg was like super successful and wealthy David Geffen who at Geffin Records was super successful and wealthy but to partner with those two gentlemen And the legend is like he had to go and

[14:38] you know to kind of like be able to partner with them and then he built that well the three built that into a huge exit to Universal. So when he launched I admittedly wasn't the success he envisioned but he was already like an

[14:54] icon. So I met him for breakfast and whenever I meet people I always pick up the tab even though I could imagine he would not. But I just at the end like we impressed with like what we had built and he was like it was very flattering,

[15:07] like when I left I'm like okay well thank I could tell like he had set up meeting like like the way I do it up back to back. So I'm like all right sir. I'm like it's been such a pleasure

[15:20] get the bill and I'll be on my way. He's like if you do that you will leave here in a body bag. I was like, "Okay, you could pick up the tap for my like $8, you know, egg and bagel there." Anyway, so he was

[15:34] Molson. Yeah. Another one is Ted Leonsis. So, Ted Leons is the owner of there was a period where one of our president of National Geographic. So, he was in the DC area. He was very well

[15:49] connected. But actually, no, Ted, I used to email myself like a crazy person when he was still at AOL when I started my career. So he was like kind of an part of AOL. They had their IPO. He made a fortune. And then he basically exited

[16:03] people. They're like enough of this racket. And then he bought the uh he think he owns the Mystics and a bunch of other stuff. So once I was in DC, I just huge fan. You know, he's Greek immigrant. I'm immigrant, Canadian,

[16:20] know, these are people I study and all. So we chatted. You know, it wasn't for any business, but it was just I think we had just beaten them. Actually, we had the Canad we Yeah, we the Montreal Canadians. We had a big hand in that

[16:33] victory, didn't we, Ash? Huge hand. Yeah. Um, so no, like Montreal Canadians before uh the Washington Capitals were the top seed um in seven. So, I tried to

[16:46] be very diplomatic about that, but I'm sure I alluded it to it. No, I met a lot of great people. I mean I really really you know very humbling and it's like thing I have are the people that I've met and recruited and met and learned

[17:01] from and but it is very strange because like this week if I really like it was a bit my daughter turned 17 so that's already shocking my daughter took her York when we went there in like 2008 to kind of generate business and raise

[17:16] financing and it was very different because I used to go to New York all the time and I wrote in my third book, I go, I used to basically get on a plane to go the thing. I would basically just buy an airline ticket to go pitch to somebody

[17:29] and they were like, "You seem like a pretty, you know, competent individual, but we don't invest in content or you're in Montreal or we don't like your face, whatever." Uh, usually all of the above. But but this week, the last three weeks,

[17:43] we we let's say we met with 12 or 13 or like that range, 10 to 15 companies that were all super impressed. We're all super eager. Um I have no idea where anything because we don't really have to. But I mean, this process was

[17:59] exhausting. Like it was also condensed. So I'm glad we did it once, but I So I'm like, I may just do something just to start a new chapter. And I mean if you if you look by the fact that I'm producing a record, it's like I do want

[18:11] new challenges. I do want a bigger like talking of sports, New York is the you know the capital of the world. It's the media. It's the mecca of media. So I kind of now I'm like we all collectively have built and you know Kevin and Derek

[18:23] came with me and they've been with us forever and since day one. So I am a bit like we've built a tremendous business that is really now respected by so many these are what they said. I didn't say they're like this is one of the best run

[18:36] companies we've seen in the space, right? So I was like okay we could keep doing what we do for another few years or we could really really like you know mean we are in the major leagues but you know what I mean like just take it to

[18:49] the next level. Go ballistic. And I'm actually I am going ballistic now. album that I'm like I should I mean I'm not again I'm not Mavellian. It's just common sense. I'm like, I should do a lot of these now and start it because if

[19:02] like, Ash, we want you to do all these crazy ideas. Like, that's one school of thought. The other school of thought is you guys do certain things really really independent, you're forcing you're being forced or you're you're pushing to do

[19:16] other things to diversify. There's another school of thought, comparative that's going to say, "Yeah, why don't you not do those things or those things are just your hobbies, but like we want you." So, I'm kind of saying, "F it.

[19:29] Let's just go crazy." You know? It's like Tom Brady just release the hounds, you know? Let's go do everything. Well, we have a pretty cool meeting coming up, be talking about podcasts. So, that is something that I wanted to actually ask

[19:43] suggestions or questions about the series that we're wrapping up next week with episode 20, um, or any suggestions for future shows that you'd like us to We'll talk about those next week when we get into what's to come. Yeah. And I

[19:58] Ivon's idea. Uh Ivonne will be leading was also just any questions regarding the company, the industry, whatever. creator, I want to start a media company. Just any question ask away and

[20:12] then we'll probably create like themes some around and yeah my idea is tomorrow when we have that meeting. Let's come up with a couple of show. I mean again come up with two. Let's come up with one. Let's come up with three. And then

[20:26] it's like it could draft off the inside something whether it's inside some sport or inside some theme or inside blockchain crypto inside Iran inside America inside Trump whatever you know it's like the skies inside inside MCU

[20:40] you know I mean it could be anything so I'm like let's then next week summarize is the best way around company then let's just summarize it and say these were the ideas we had we feel and again it's like that checklist what is

[20:54] authentic what do we really have like expertise in what would make good compelling content. What can you do? And I use that number 20. It could be 10, podcast forever because I feel that then

[21:06] you could have anybody. But I feel like if it's on a given theme, I rather if like there's seven episodes or 20 episodes. You know, we used to say when we did watch Mojo videos, people would be like, "How long should the video be?"

[21:20] should be." like don't stuff seven pounds of beef in a two pound bag and fill two pounds of meat in a 10 pound bag. So then yeah, the next week and we'll wrap this up and then yeah, just because some people may have a good

[21:35] memory and so yeah, my idea was it's funny I decided to produce an album first instead of the documentary, but the documentary I realized would be an excellent book end to this chapter of Watch Mojo where then at some point I

[21:49] explained the rationale like respecting confidentiality of the other parties. I where I would actually explain a little bit like when Michael Arrington sold TechCrunch, he signed the deal with Tim

[22:02] TechCrunch, he signed the deal with Tim Armstrong of AOL at TechCrunches Disrupt. Like he really they were on stage and it was so funny and then we could get into the meat of the show. Tim Armstrong was like you could see it. Tim

[22:16] Armstrong was an executive at Google. He was then CEO of AOL. He wanted to buy influential blog. And Michael Arrington, Michael Arrington was seen as like a loose cannon. Tim Armstrong was like,

[22:29] and then you're going to like tear it off and be like, well, it's a dinosaur. Screw this." And he said on stage and I was like, "Oh my god, if Arrington does that, he's crazy." But he didn't. Tim Armstrong signed it. Then Michael

[22:43] anticlimatic because you were expecting like theatrics. And so that was like 2007 or 2008, you know. And like at that time when I told people like at those tech events that I was like producing content for YouTube like

[22:58] they were really like why why don't you build an app that's like um you know toilet locator crapster or something. I was like why would I do that anyway? So it's just it's just crazy how how the world has changed you know and like we

[23:12] yes we were presenting but they were ultimately trying to make the case as to was just a weird dynamic when for the desperately trying to find a home for watch modules. So well that's a good

[23:25] segue into the body of the the episode because if we're yeah using baseball analogies like we said what inning is it now and can you take us through the different the different innings when when regarding the lifespan of of Watch

[23:39] Mojo? Sure. So let me just go I always like to start macro. So people always ask me like what inning is it like whether it's with YouTube or with like fast free ads serving uh TV like the Pluto and the you know

[23:52] Pluto and the you know the you know those companies the YouTube is going to dominate fast people are not even aware of how YouTube is going to swallow the world. We'll talk about that and I would be like look it's

[24:05] about that and I would be like look it's not a good analogy of what inning is it which is the analogy everybody likes. I go the real analogy is it's a best of seven series and undoubtedly like if you look at the world of fast you could

[24:19] argue that the first winners might have been like frankly Samsung and Roku. Yeah. And for those who don't know the the acronym fast free advertising it's

[24:31] free adup supported television right the idea is Avod is on demand. It's advertising video on demand or subscription video on demand. You choose what you want to watch. Yeah. So, we'll bring we could keep this up for a bit.

[24:45] Whereas free ad ser uh free ad supported television is more like linear TV, but you don't get the content through cable or satellite the way we used to. It's through IP TV. It's through overthetop connected devices on your CTV, your your

[25:01] your smart t uh your connected TV, your smart TV. and like watch modules content 45% of our watch time is already on connected TVs which is insane. That's because we're at long form programming. So the analogy that I used was yeah here

[25:17] like fast. It's not the innings really. It's more that some games have been played. There have been winners. So the first one was Zumo Zumo whatever that like I think Comcast bought. The second game

[25:31] was like Samsung and Roku. they kind of bought it like Roku was I guess like these are more hardware manufacturers. The third one was really the Pluto TV and Tubies which took a different approach but they kind of like one got

[25:44] acquired by Fox for 600 or 300 whatever some obscene amount Pluto TV got acquired for another obscene amount by Paramount Viacom and I would say right almost in the fourth game you know like it's there's a lot of game has been

[25:59] think that here on out YouTube is going to dominate and what was really impressive in all my meetings is I did not have to tell people this people were like YouTube is going to swallow the whole world. YouTube is going to just

[26:12] crush the competition. And so let's go back now. Let's how do we end up here? So I think if you look at it from 2006 to 2012, that was really like the wild wild west. Like there was no business. It was like preseason. You know, you're

[26:27] playing like grapefruit league. Um there was no business model. There was really Yeah, there you go. That point nobody wanted to be online. the rights holders hold out. Let's figure out the business model." And they shot themselves in the

[26:41] The media companies come back and we we've discussed why is tech sorry text media different than video media like technically and programming wise. They had very different challenges. But that was the wild wild

[26:55] west era. I think we really were fortunate to have started then. Um and we could just take our time to figure out product market fit. Yes, it was a could also being based in Montreal avoid that noise and competition. And uh I'd

[27:10] never ever talk about the company or the industry without saying that like, well, head start or just lucky to start when YouTube started, they would have degree of success. So that was like until 2012.

[27:25] 2013 to 2017 does coincide with both Watch Mojo's pre-teen years and the industry's pre-teen years. Like if you think about it, that's around the time when like YouTube launched Google Preferred,

[27:40] currently called YouTube Select with better ads. They launched Brandcast. Um that's the time when they really grew into like management like they had a lot had a lot of like more buttoned up executives. Um, yeah. And in this case,

[27:55] just tinkering and figuring it out. But like for us, I'd say 2012 to 16, whether like for us, I'd say 2012 to 16, whether it's 12 to 16, 13, 17, that era. That hyperrowth. We went from 10,000 subscribers in 11 to 100,000 in 12 to a

[28:12] million in 13. And we finished that period with 15 million subs. And not that it matters to anybody else. Like when I look back it was a great period when I look back it was a great period like as an abstract like as a

[28:25] continuum and obviously I'm a bon vivon renaissance man I love life but there was not a moment that I was actually happy really because I was managing so many growth I was managing look I love everybody I had hired all these kids out

[28:39] of school and given the keys to the asylum to these inmates who were some of them never really wanted to work in a nineto-five now they left we let some go like It was like it's fine now. But at that moment I was like dealing with

[28:51] toddlers and I love that. I love toddlers but it was just like like that was and then I brought on all these senior execs whom I liked. Not quite the Jeffrey Katzenbergs but like senior execs that were pretty good and that I

[29:05] respected but just it didn't there was no fit. Like it's hard for executives who worked at big media companies to come in the YouTube Instagram universe. Like it's a different universe, right? It's like when Michael Jordan, who was

[29:19] great at basketball, tried to play baseball. Okay, he had some good swings it's not the same thing. I mean, that's good. We're keeping with the analogy. good. We're keeping with the analogy. Um, so yeah, so I was really go I I

[29:33] mean, it's I was fine. I wish I would I mean, I was great dad. I was always didn't really enjoy myself. Now I find I'm more in the moment. Like I'm here. I'm just talking to you. We're talking. just I don't I don't really even think

[29:46] of anything else at that period. It was not the case. I was thinking of a lot was kind of like figuring ourselves out and whatnot. And then 2018 to 2020 was just like frustration and self-doubt because

[30:02] we had walked away well we walked away from the Bell talks really they like they changed the terms of the deal and it was their right. we had not really finalized, but they made a material change in the terms

[30:14] when the deal went from being like really a bit of a no-brainer to well, this doesn't really make sense anymore. And because at that point, I didn't really have a bank. Um, I had to communicate that. So, it created some

[30:27] I was just it was well within my right also to say this isn't the same deal. when we reinvested a lot and our revenues were flat and our profits went. that's how you're measured in business, which I hate that it's true. You're

[30:44] valued. Um, there was a lot of moments of doubt where I was like, did I do the right thing? Should I have just done the deal? It wasn't a perfect deal, but there's no perfect deal. In my heart, I knew I'd done the right thing, but there

[30:56] and all that. And then you know we the thing that is hard for an entrepreneur is in 2009 19 we actually hired CIBC

[31:08] uh an investment bank in Canada because then Belle again was like well maybe we then Belle again was like well maybe we could revisit the convo and Belle had twice bought companies where CIBC was the advisor representing the seller. So

[31:22] I was like, okay, to give them peace of mind that if they're interested and we're both on the same page, they're not wasting their time. Hired CIBC, learned a lot, they did a very good job. And in that process initially in 2019, I've

[31:36] never actually gotten into the details, but why not? We actually only had, despite talking to so many companies, Hurst, so many companies, we only actually had one company in the end that did management presentation and we

[31:49] almost had to like fake it. We almost had to set up the scheduling in a way to give the indication that there were more parties. Um, and that party was Ze Davis IGN who ironically had bought Askman but this was a different regime but their

[32:05] offer was like half of what Bell had valued us and understandably as a profits had gone down. We didn't have the same growth rate. Um, and whereas Bell was competing with four other parties thereby pushing up the value. uh

[32:21] we didn't have that much leverage. So when they were like this is the offer I was like okay and then I brought it to my executive team partners and I was like if you guys want to join a bigger company and there's pros and cons more

[32:35] resources more focus but more discipline because I'm pretty I'm disciplined and conservative but I'm pretty let's say a fair. I mean, some people may not have assure you like there's a lot of things that I'm pretty chill despite not being

[32:51] a very chill person. Um, and it was interesting because Watch Mojo 2020, which we discussed in a previous episode, we had invested in so many things. Miss Mojo, Snap, a lot of other stuff like the lineup and shows,

[33:05] but Snap and Miss Mojo were two of the shining stars where we as a team looked at the numbers and were like, we could do this deal, but it does

[33:18] our second phase of growth. And now we're entering our third, well, we've growth, which is hard. It's hard for companies to avoid decline. When they have infancy, growth, maturity, usually they go to decline. We've twice avoided

[33:32] incredible. Um, and the I remember vividly one of my saying, I I don't think we should do this deal. And then I let the okay. I was like, who else feels this way? And one by one, everybody was like,

[33:46] decision in theory, I don't run the company like that. So I was like if we have alignment and if we have consensus that we prefer to stay alone let's stay alone now another self-doubt what happens a month later co

[34:02] so now again I go through one period of self-doubt after the bell media now co hits nobody knew what was going to happen like we thought we could die and yes we benefited because of more people watching home entertainment and you know

[34:14] what happened cuz they're like how come imagine you're Samsung as an advertiser and you sign a deal with Google or even better you're WPP a large ad agency holding company

[34:31] you sign a billion dollar deal to spend advertising on Google platforms but by committing to a billion dollars you get a 10% discount which you could pocket a 10% discount which you could pocket let's say as as an agency you get season

[34:45] tickets to any sports you get hookers and cocaine and you know the stuff that shocked when I say this well how do you think this industry works buddy um so

[34:57] you commit to them now there is such a thing as force measure where WPP could tell Google well because of this pandemic we're allowed to not spend this pandemic we're allowed to not spend this money but WPP wants to spend that money

[35:11] because they charge let's say 15% to the advertiser so what ended up happening is instead of let's say running ads on folders.com as an example pull a travel site. Nobody's going on a travel site during COVID. WPP was like, where could

[35:24] we spend our money? YouTube. What are some brand safe channels? Watch Mojo. normal obvious. So explaining it, I was like, yeah, there's a lot of details in the Anyway, so that's what happened. But at first, I remember waking up going,

[35:38] you're a [ __ ] I'm like, you regret it for I mean, not continuously, but at this doubt. You questioned yourself. People ridiculed you. Why didn't you do the bell deal without naming that it was Bell? And I'm like, you had another

[35:52] that one, but it was a great deal, but I was like, you turned it down because you what kind of [ __ ] are you? Thought I was also very confident that it was the right decision, but yeah, it's never black and white. And then slowly but

[36:06] surely, um, we had a rocket ship period where two, three years of future growth came up faster the way Shopify and Amazon grew. And so I view that as like the the rebellious teenage years. Like 2020, 21,

[36:23] 22 was like, you know, just you're a teenager, you get in trouble, you do crazy [ __ ] you just are figuring out life. You stay out of trouble, but like you're always on the verge of like, "Dad, you need to come get me. I messed

[36:37] up." You know? Um, before we move on to the to the next era, I I was just curious to know if you think that the company's trajectory would have been any different had you made the deal with Bell or IGN. I So, it's always the

[36:51] person. I think Randy and I could have made a great team. I would have learned a lot from him and I think he would have been able to like leverage my skills, you know, and really like build Bell into something really really bigger and

[37:05] better than what it is. Not that we're special, but because like Watch Mojo is a great asset. Like I think like the takeaway was wow. It is like an iceberg that we see what Watch Mojo is, but there's this great team and there's all

[37:17] capability. We're showing them our technology and people like the faces was like, "Oh my god." And I'm like, "We're not even using this yet. We just built some of this stuff in like Mojo Unity as we you know some of the and

[37:29] know some of the stuff that we're doing even like AI." I was like, AI is not just like a it's a defensive process improvement tool, but I was like, we're create content to do a lot of stuff. Uh, so long story short, yes, I do think we

[37:43] also possible that one day, like I say to Joel Peshy, you walk in a room and have been like, we don't really care about YouTube because we don't want to like about, you know, we don't like fair use or we don't like this and that. And

[37:58] local reporting for their like news brands. like that is also possible when you sell. It's like as Mark Cuban once said, you want the cash or the crown, either. I just wanted to work on cool stuff. Um, and I think Z Davis would

[38:14] box. They would have been like, just do watch Mojo. They're like, what you're doing under Mojo Plays, just do for IGN. Um, Miss Module we we would keep cuz brand that we could use when we go into ad agencies, not just pitch men's

[38:29] brands, have like a female demo, but I think everything else they would be Cuz they're I mean, this is a compliment. They're very disciplined business. Very disciplined, you know, like props. Like they're, you know, so

[38:41] no-brainer. Anybody that thinks like by selling you don't change uh is is naive. And this is the thing that I I yesterday at the airport I was taking the guys at a high level. I'm like, we really have to put these in buckets. I said, some of

[38:54] these parties are really just again big investment funds that want to start making bets in media. Unlike our current private equity fund that is great, like they score high on character, integrity, they're not really media, not savvies.

[39:08] They're not media operators. So, like we've talked about like what it takes to now you know the Joe Rogan's the acquired podcast, the watch mojo. I'm like, it's a lot of tinkering and serendipity. It's not like an MBA

[39:22] exercise and like a you don't build that in a Excel spreadsheet. You really have to be in the in the trenches, the man in the arena, you know, citizen um Roosevelt speech there. So, but these are like actually a bit like the Vince

[39:35] McMahon. These are like people that have been in media. I mean, I'd love to name disciplined there. I don't want them to be offended. I don't there's nothing I'm not saying anything. We just had a conversation type of thing. Um, but

[39:47] since they've already submitted a preliminary offer, I I want to be very educational for like younger entrepreneurs. Um, but what's really that kind of built the, for example, purpose of illustration, these are

[40:00] executives at these funds who have built like the MTVs, the ESPN's, the CNN's, the Nickelodeons, the BETs that I'm like, I could learn from them and they could help us and we could do a lot of damage because they're more

[40:15] risktakers." And then there are others who are really more just media companies, some of them are backed by investors, some of them are publicly traded. And there I salivate because I go they have an army of sales and

[40:30] marketing and and they see how much we've done. So it's a bit like when ESPN, they were like, "We're not going to push ABC Sports anymore." Now, I'm not like driven by greed. Watch module's main growth despite the incredible 20

[40:46] years we've had is going to come in the next 10 years because YouTube is going to go parabolic. Like YouTube now is one in desktop dominated in mobile is crushing it in connected TVs. All of the ad dollars that are still on TV will

[41:03] shift will shift but they will shift to Ava. They're not going to go shift to display ads. that that dollar that budget is not going to go to search advertising. It's not going to go buying a banner ad on some site. It's going to

[41:16] go towards video. It's not going to go really on some of it will go on Netflix's Avod, but Netflix is small in Avod. Their main business is subscription video on demand. So there's like this crazy amount of like it's like

[41:31] a dam that's breaking and and TV advertising no longer makes sense on an not greed, it's just business. They want to charge more because inflation and their costs go up, but their audiences shrink. Yeah. or if you're WPPP, if

[41:46] you're Coca-Cola, if you're Samsung, if you're Air Canada, who again found a way you're Air Canada, who again found a way to screw me, um little parenthesis, you no longer can justify spending what you're doing uh on TV. So, you start to

[41:59] look at the and you already are you're spending. So, all that ad dollars is going to shift to places like YouTube. And YouTube, again, I don't have a big though clearly we're not. I mean, the entire generation that grew up on

[42:13] YouTube knows us. We are seen as like great programming brand safe long form as we're pushing into longer form content. 45% of our viewership is of our watch time is on big screens. So YouTube

[42:26] is going to so but I'm fine with that. I have no problems. If a company buys us and they benefit like in the next decade, good for them. They take the risk and I'll help them, you know. Um, I just want, like I said, like it's like

[42:39] you've played on a team, you've been loyal, and you you you've won a lot, you've won accolades, you've won awards, but at some point you're like, I don't talents to South Beach, but it's like you realize that like, oh wow, I've done

[42:53] a lot with this great team. You know, as I say, give me a soldier, we could beat any army. Give me an army, we could build, we could defeat any empire. But need an army, right? So, it's really exciting. So I was like, we need to

[43:06] determine, do we still want to be like a small tribe that helps this bigger army and we fly their flag ultimately alongside us or even above us or do we want to be like the platform play that some investment fund that is really just

[43:21] now getting started wants to kind of back us and use us as the tip of the spear. The drawback is for the first 3, six, nine months, nothing changes in a way. We're still kind of us, you know, it's we're the

[43:34] army. But yes, in 9 months or in two years, we'll buy other assets. We'll hire a lot more. We'll take more risks, but it's still like, okay, we're still alone trying to boil the ocean. Whereas in the other

[43:48] one, it does take a bit of the pressure off. Now there's another kind of fascinating because I've never really had this dynamic where there's like going to be seven, eight, nine, ten companies ideally, and you know, they're

[44:02] know, it's super flattering that they even want to partner with us. And that's generally like to work with people, but I can't. You know, it's like when the Quebec Nordiks traded Eric Lindros to both the Rangers and the Flyers, you

[44:17] like, "Well, what if you got an LOI? could you sign? I go, well, you can't sign exclusive LOIs with two parties. I said, that's like Marcel Obu there of the Nordics. I go, you have to pick. And I go, that's for me it's going to be

[44:31] don't meet as many people because whenever I meet people, I want to work to like and I go at some point it doesn't make sense. I'm like it's just like I do need to build a little bit of like so it's fascinating and it

[44:43] did the album. I was just like I needed a release. I was like sitting there like this a weird time in my life, you know? It's a good problem to have though ultimately. It's a good problem and it's amplified by how hard I had it earlier

[44:58] on. And it was not just hard. It was just like brutally hard like on every place, struggling with payroll every two the I mean, I don't want to sound like George Castanzon Seinfeld where he takes

[45:11] the rental board through his his tragic life story. Tragic life story. I mean, I but it is just it was a very very weird thing. Anyway, and then to thing. Anyway, and then to conclude, I think 23 to 25 was actually

[45:25] a bit like, you know, 21 and 22 were pretty 21 was really good. 22 and 23 were really hard because of the end of Zer and a lot of things that were external that affected us. But I do feel like in the last year or two, I've

[45:38] through like a rebirth, a regeneration, a rejuvenation, and a bit of vindication. Although I'm not like petty like that, like I still want to be like humble and modest and just appreciate and gratitude, but there was a part of,

[45:51] you know, I go like sins and virtues. There was a part of me that wanted to be There was a part of me that wanted to be like, I told you so. Like for 15, 10 going to happen. It's here. But that's not my personality. Like that's one

[46:05] very grateful and I just want to make the right decision. To be honest with can speak to your lawyers and they'll give you like random advice. You can give you like random advice. You can speak to your board. They don't really

[46:18] they're not operators. And then like I also am like balancing like what's good for the team, what's good for you know everybody else. But like once those I'm making the right decision for this

[46:30] bit more I don't want to be selfish but I'm not going to I'm not a martyr. Like in a situation that I'm going to wake up and going like you're a [ __ ] Like you made yourself miserable and you actually had a good setup before. You had a

[46:44] minority investor that supports you. You have a great team. I also have leaned let everybody their space and then people didn't really know who I was so something and now I feel people kind of know who I because it's a different

[46:57] team, right? It's not like 10 years ago. Yeah. So it's a good problem to have. you're entering your golden years. Like you've done your school, you've done [ __ ] and now you're like, "Hey, I actually got my [ __ ] together. My life's

[47:12] going in the right place." Um, and I'm just so excited and humbled and flattered and I really really it's like when you're as much as it's a team and to show them that there's a lot of brilliant people at this company and

[47:24] then we had slides where I would go like not just these great people, there's I was like, "These are the Watch Mojo guys." And I was like, I was running through the Miss Mojo team. I was like, "There's so many great people."

[47:36] Um, but I do feel in a way like a free agent, you know, that's going to sign with anybody. And um, and it was funny because it was like my my default is I'm they're like, even though I'm very diplomatic, they're like, maybe Ash is

[47:51] very like strongminded, strong willed. I used to always people used to question coachable person. I'm like an old I'm like please give me feedback. Tell me the optics are a bit different. And I was like maybe these people might not

[48:05] want me to stick around. And in a few of the meetings at the first week they were leave the room they're like yeah if Ash isn't staying we're not buying this but they're like he knows where the bodies are buried. Like he knows. So

[48:19] then then the adviser was like uh we just want to have a chat with you. By they're freaking out that I'm saying all this, but it's it's gen it's generic. want to make sure you're you don't intend on leaving." I'm like, "No, I

[48:33] love what we're doing." And I mean, you saw like I have a renewed, you know, up all these new projects that you're deeply invested in. So, it's a good a Yeah. No, it's exciting. So, I think in the next week or two, I'll have some

[48:48] clarity. And I know it's weird. I've actually not I mean if somebody if one well aware of everything but I purposely didn't want to get ahead because I still now I'm like okay these companies were really impressed and they've kind of

[49:03] then I'll take the team. I'll be very transparent. I'll be like these were some of the profiles of the people that we looked at and you know these were the pros and cons of each and I'm going to present to those who care why we made.

[49:15] above anybody. I just will be like this is the decision. If you have any feedback you know tell me now. Super exciting but I am now like more coming back from New York. Yeah I'm going to suspend the

[49:29] I'm No, I'm kidding. I'm definitely I'm kidding. I'm going to I'm very much the offers make sense and there's no hair on it type of thing. And I'm very excited for the team. I think for the team this does set up really to go from

[49:44] the MTVs of the early 80s or you know late 80s to like what happened in the 90s or ESPN where it really became synonymous with like the famino of the I'm looking forward to seeing what happens. Yeah, we shall. Should be

[49:58] remind the audience that if you're for us, anything at all, you can leave a comment. And next week's episode will some of those questions. We'll talk about internal questions that we've had

[50:12] after we talk about podcasts, what comes next. Uh, and we'll put a close to this wonderful series that I'm very fortunate I got to do with you, Ash. Yeah, thank moment on the beach. I know I've alluded to this many times when Young Deuces set

[50:26] same time were like I want to do more podcasts and I was like let me connect like you know the strawberry ingredient I'm an alchemist I like to bring things into you're making drinks in your mind

[50:39] for sure and I was like on my phone drinking I was like the sun I was like and I was like and this is what I mean is you have to do it you have to show people and I feel like this is in a way a good template where I'm like hey guys

[50:52] you could do stuff what do you want to do a five episode podcast on you're you're into stamps. I'm I'm open. You know, if you're really passionate and there's there's like something that's unique. Um yeah, and so I also don't

[51:05] think I would have done the album if it wasn't for this podcast. So, thank you. you're leaning into your passions because I think it's good for everybody to do that. For sure. Full shisel. All right, everybody. We'll see you next

[51:18] week for episode 20. And until then, be well. See you next time. Thanks, Ash. well. See you next time. Thanks, Ash. Take care.