Movement Practice to Strengthen Your Mind-Body Connection | Ido Portal

[00:00] Discipline is very important, but it's

[00:02] similar to the wall in learning to do a

[00:04] handstand. If you use the wall one way

[00:08] where you're all the time pushing

[00:09] yourself off of the wall, try to catch

[00:11] your handstand, you become reliant on

[00:14] the wall. But there is a different

[00:15] approach. We can use the wall but pull

[00:19] off of it which comes from the other end

[00:22] from our hands from the connection to

[00:24] the ground. That does not necessitate

[00:26] the wall. This is the correct way to use

[00:29] discipline. You should use it as a

[00:31] scaffolding as a way to get things going

[00:34] like write that book. But inside the

[00:36] process, you must make sure you don't

[00:38] lean hard into it. You don't leave

[00:41] everything for it to dictate and you

[00:44] bring some playfulness, some relaxation,

[00:48] some deep choice. I want to do this.

[00:53] Welcome to the Hubberman Lab podcast,

[00:54] where we discuss [music] science and

[00:56] science-based tools for everyday life.

[01:00] [music]

[01:02] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor

[01:04] of neurobiology and opthalmology at

[01:06] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

[01:08] today is Ido Portal. Ido Portal is a

[01:11] world-renowned movement teacher and the

[01:13] founder of movement culture, which is an

[01:15] integrative practice for developing the

[01:17] self that combines physical and mental

[01:19] practice. Today we discuss how anyone

[01:22] can practice movement, deliberate

[01:24] awareness, and even language and other

[01:26] forms of communication in ways that

[01:28] explore and expand your capabilities and

[01:30] your understanding and sense of self.

[01:33] >> [snorts]

[01:33] >> Now, Ido is not anti-ex exercise or

[01:35] anti-fitness, but what sets him apart as

[01:37] a movement teacher and why so many

[01:39] professional athletes, dancers, and

[01:41] people around the world continually seek

[01:43] out his teachings is his ability to show

[01:45] people unique ways for how to go about

[01:48] their daily life in ways that truly

[01:50] expand both their mind and their body as

[01:52] well as their athletic performance in

[01:54] the case of athletics. Today, we discuss

[01:56] unique meditation practices, ways to

[01:59] build discipline and access willpower.

[02:01] And by the way, what the difference

[02:02] between discipline and willpower is and

[02:05] how to use play as an extremely potent

[02:07] way to rewire your default operating

[02:09] systems in everything you do. If you

[02:12] like so many other people typically

[02:14] think about movement practices as for

[02:16] strength or endurance or mobility, well,

[02:18] today you're in for a surprise because

[02:20] Ido explains how the transitions between

[02:22] brain states and physical states are

[02:24] linked and are fertile ground for

[02:26] extremely rapid neuroplasticity and that

[02:29] they can help you truly understand how

[02:30] your mind and body are organized and can

[02:32] function better. Today's conversation is

[02:35] a truly special one. I have to be clear.

[02:37] It's not philosophical. It's not

[02:39] theoretical. It's a practical

[02:41] exploration of movement, awareness,

[02:43] language, and cognition that is rooted

[02:46] in science and has real world

[02:47] implications for all of us. Edo is a

[02:50] truly unique human being, teacher, and

[02:52] friend. And it was an honor to host him

[02:54] again. So, prepare to learn. Before we

[02:57] begin, I'd like to emphasize that this

[02:58] podcast is separate from my teaching and

[03:00] research roles at Stanford. It is

[03:02] however part of my desire and effort to

[03:04] bring zero cost to consumer information

[03:05] about science and science related tools

[03:08] to the general public. In keeping with

[03:09] that theme, today's episode does include

[03:12] sponsors. And now for my discussion with

[03:14] Ido Portal. Idor Portal, welcome back.

[03:18] >> Thank you.

[03:19] >> So happy to see you again, my friend.

[03:20] >> Good to see you.

[03:21] >> You've aged backwards, so doing

[03:24] something right now. You haven't aged at

[03:26] all. What have you been up to lately? I

[03:28] have many questions but I want to know

[03:29] what what what's been your first thought

[03:32] on waking most consistently over the

[03:34] last you know year or so

[03:38] the same thing always the same thing the

[03:41] most important thing that exists that

[03:43] there is that that's how my system

[03:47] operates but getting that that change

[03:51] that deep transformation in people in

[03:54] myself

[03:57] Why? Why are we missing it? What is what

[04:00] is required

[04:02] that's always been there and changes its

[04:05] face, but it's the same one.

[04:09] When you wake up, do you open your eyes

[04:12] right away or do you ever spend some

[04:14] time in that liinal state between

[04:16] [clears throat] asleep and awake?

[04:18] >> I'm sometimes spend some time there. I

[04:21] experienced also sleep paralysis before

[04:24] and various inetweens

[04:27] >> where you're wide awake but the body is

[04:29] still paralyzed. Yeah.

[04:30] >> Yeah. When you sit a lot when when you

[04:32] meditate a lot and and other practices

[04:35] and somatic practices again you get to

[04:38] know the territory and you can stabilize

[04:42] fragile states more easily. So crossing

[04:45] into that boundary of the sleep it

[04:47] becomes

[04:49] a slow-mo journey that you can pause

[04:52] that you can you know spend time at any

[04:55] point in interesting I do yoga nidra

[05:00] non-sleep deep rest and there are

[05:01] moments where I can feel myself falling

[05:03] asleep and it literally feels like

[05:05] falling and then you can kind of catch

[05:07] yourself in these liinal states. Rick

[05:09] Rubin once said to me, he said, "If uh

[05:13] if you wake up from a like a bad dream,

[05:16] a nightmare, just move your body and

[05:20] look around the room. If you wake up

[05:22] from a dream you were really enjoying

[05:24] and you want to go back in, keep your

[05:26] eyes closed." And I think what he's

[05:29] talking about is more or less what

[05:30] you're talking about, the ability to

[05:32] kind of forward and reverse out of these

[05:35] transition states. Usually the the

[05:38] common way that people live and the

[05:39] common person has a very

[05:43] simplified

[05:45] perception of these states of this the

[05:49] granularity.

[05:50] >> Mhm.

[05:51] >> So they're difficult to stabilize. So it

[05:55] becomes very binary black white sleep

[05:58] you know like you you relax someone they

[06:01] fall asleep. That's what happens when

[06:04] there is not a lot of experience.

[06:06] Everything is immediately going there.

[06:08] But there is a lot of benefit in heading

[06:10] to sleep and taking a sharp left just

[06:14] before.

[06:15] >> Tell me about that and how one might um

[06:17] practice that.

[06:19] >> Well, the sleep there is a kind of a way

[06:22] where we can inverse the relationship.

[06:26] This is the sleeping state which is

[06:28] discussed in various authors and the

[06:31] waking sleep and then the sleep has a

[06:34] benefit because there is an openness

[06:38] towards something else. So heading

[06:40] directly to sleep and then navigating

[06:44] from there is very powerful to reset the

[06:47] system to change the schemes these rigid

[06:50] schemes that we sometimes have the rigid

[06:52] schemas

[06:54] the models that we're running when they

[06:56] become too rigid when they're surrounded

[06:58] by a hard membrane

[07:00] when they oversimplify

[07:02] and there is this bas basian reduction

[07:06] um you got to pop out of it somehow. So

[07:09] psychedelics is one way and there are

[07:12] other ways but the sleep every day is

[07:15] key because it's a a very different

[07:18] status and way of being and way of

[07:21] experiencing which we experience daily

[07:24] and uh we can use that transition part

[07:27] and the thing itself as well. Do you

[07:29] ever intentionally get up in the middle

[07:31] of the night to just experience being

[07:35] mostly awake but somewhat asleep just to

[07:39] experience what that what that's like?

[07:42] >> Yeah, I did before. Various practices

[07:45] use that kind of instruction. Uh people

[07:49] uh some people might be familiar with

[07:51] the lucid dreaming or the the dream yoga

[07:53] or the sleep yoga what is called various

[07:56] practices and waking up in the middle of

[07:58] the night also allows you to

[08:02] appreciate something else something

[08:04] different. Sometimes it happens and you

[08:07] can manipulate it into somewhere and

[08:10] sometimes you can do it on purpose.

[08:12] Nowadays with all the longevity talk and

[08:15] all this direction we we sometimes don't

[08:18] capitalize on such things but uh

[08:21] sometimes there is more to be gained

[08:22] with a bad night's sleep than with a

[08:24] good night's sleep.

[08:25] >> Uh in [clears throat] 2015 to 20 I would

[08:29] say 2018 I was uh very busy but I was

[08:34] mourning the death of my graduate

[08:36] adviser. was very close with her um

[08:39] unusually close for a graduate adviser

[08:41] and student

[08:42] >> [clears throat]

[08:42] >> um very maternal

[08:45] her to me relationship knew her kids I'm

[08:48] friends with her husband and kids still

[08:50] and um she died in 2014 and I was really

[08:53] distraught about it and someone

[08:56] recommended to me uh that I set an alarm

[09:00] for the middle of the night somewhere

[09:02] between 3:00 and 4:00 a.m. and I just

[09:04] get up and and try grieving then. And at

[09:08] first I thought like that sounds like

[09:09] the worst thing to do. I'm like no I

[09:12] have no protection then you know my

[09:14] forebrain is shut down. I'm that's when

[09:16] I normally would be entering more REM

[09:18] sleep. And I tried it. It was very

[09:21] interesting. It definitely allowed for

[09:22] more intense morning but it had a very

[09:25] interesting effect where I no longer had

[09:27] the challenge of like falling asleep and

[09:29] waking up. I had this like designated

[09:31] period in my sleep. did a lot of crying

[09:33] between 3:00 am and 5:00 am and in many

[09:37] ways I I feel like it worked. Who knows

[09:40] in some cultures it's like the veil of

[09:43] suppression is is pulled back. Our

[09:46] defenses are way way down in those

[09:48] hours.

[09:49] >> That's the point.

[09:50] >> Yeah. these membranes that are

[09:53] surrounding various systems inside of us

[09:56] and and models that we are running that

[09:58] are protecting them. This uh marov

[10:01] blankets

[10:03] the this filters that can rigidify and

[10:07] and don't allow a lot in to simplify

[10:10] things for the model so we can survive

[10:12] so we can do things. And then in when

[10:15] you change when you go into those times

[10:18] to those change the scenario radically,

[10:22] you increase your chances of opening up

[10:24] of recalculating of allowing the model

[10:27] to recalibrate.

[10:30] And again, people nowadays that they use

[10:32] extreme means, it doesn't necessarily

[10:35] mean that it works. Sometimes sometimes

[10:38] you need the micro dosages

[10:40] [clears throat]

[10:40] >> and a practice around it. repetition,

[10:44] not a huge event of intensity, but a a

[10:48] repeating mellow event, gentle event. I

[10:52] can relate to I started a prayer

[10:53] practice before sleep over two and a

[10:56] half years ago, and I'm haven't been

[10:58] missed a single night. Um, and some

[11:00] nights I fall asleep while I'm praying

[11:02] and wake up and continue. And um I tell

[11:05] myself that the consistency is like

[11:09] worth something on those nights cuz I I

[11:11] feel sort of badly like my mind's

[11:12] drifting and then okay but I haven't

[11:14] missed you know it's it's all in the if

[11:16] I fall asleep get out of bed and and do

[11:18] it and then get back in bed. With

[11:20] respect to these microp practices micro

[11:22] doing as it were uh I know you're a

[11:26] proponent of med meditation

[11:28] um people often will talk about how long

[11:31] they meditate. Do you have a practice

[11:33] where you will just stop for a moment or

[11:36] two or a minute or or is it for you a

[11:39] meditation practice a long extended

[11:41] thing and how often are you doing that?

[11:43] Oh, I think there are advantages to to

[11:47] both ends of the spectrum

[11:49] cuz the the long meditation thing, the

[11:52] the retreats, the strong determination

[11:56] seats, many hours or you know many days,

[12:00] they definitely [sighs]

[12:03] load the trampoline and and and create

[12:05] an effect. But also you become dependent

[12:10] on it and it's hard later to drag this

[12:13] into other areas of life which is not

[12:15] often discussed and mentioned in

[12:17] relation to meditation.

[12:19] I didn't start to meditate because I

[12:21] wanted to sit. I wanted to take the

[12:24] state and to apply it into my life. So

[12:31] that is a moment where you can

[12:33] integrate. You can take the depth and

[12:35] you can take also very short periods of

[12:38] practice and apply this micro dosages

[12:42] and try to get a change in the defaults

[12:46] of this your state and your way of

[12:48] being.

[12:50] Eventually people ask me why I practice

[12:53] so much is because I'm aiming for 24

[12:55] hours a day.

[12:57] So if you're practicing 8 hours a day or

[12:59] 10 hours a day, this is the unofficial

[13:02] side of the practice. And this micro

[13:04] practices are very helpful for that. A

[13:07] good practice to do is not to take your

[13:11] mind off of something like a problem

[13:15] that you have to solve.

[13:17] to walk around and

[13:20] try to remember that thing. Try to keep

[13:24] it in front of you as much as you can.

[13:27] Which means the only thing you can be

[13:28] blamed for is if you caught yourself

[13:31] >> not focusing on that and you didn't

[13:34] bring yourself back to the problem at

[13:36] hand. Then you are to be blamed.

[13:38] Anything else is fine. [clears throat]

[13:41] >> And that is a very powerful practice. We

[13:43] we can solve incredibly difficult

[13:45] problems, overcome obstacles, transform

[13:48] ourselves.

[13:50] And we've moved away from such ways of

[13:52] doing and ways of being.

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[16:16] at checkout. We've done a few episodes

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[16:23] meditation. Uh we had Richie Davidson

[16:25] who's one of the like real pioneers of

[16:27] studying the neuroscience of meditation

[16:29] and he said that when people start a

[16:31] meditation practice traditional sitting

[16:34] meditation close their eyes focus on

[16:36] third eye center breathing etc redirect

[16:39] attention that they see a statistically

[16:41] significant increase in anxiety across

[16:44] that early phase and in some ways he

[16:47] said that's a real value of the

[16:49] practice. It's really about stress

[16:50] inoculation, the stress that comes from

[16:52] forcing oneself to sit still. But

[16:55] eventually it does seem to give way if

[16:57] people practice regularly to some other

[16:59] kind of uh channel of consciousness that

[17:02] is very useful to apply in the rest of

[17:04] one's life.

[17:06] >> Sounds [clears throat] like that second

[17:08] channel is the one that you're after.

[17:10] >> Yeah. this anxiety, this under reduced

[17:13] state in a way, the failure to adjust

[17:18] the membrane, this protective membrane

[17:21] around the model, whatever model it is,

[17:23] if it's the body scheme, if it's the

[17:26] emotional schema or or the conceptual

[17:29] schema, you're in an underreduced state.

[17:32] So everything bombers you and you're

[17:34] bleeding resources metabolically, right?

[17:38] And that's anxiety. That's why all

[17:40] almost always anxiety over a long

[17:43] duration will turn into depression.

[17:45] You're bleeding resources.

[17:47] So adjusting simplifying that's a

[17:51] critical moment. Of course lowering the

[17:53] bar of the task is a very important

[17:58] tool. Microtasks

[18:00] and I'm not just talking about the

[18:02] classical sitting meditation. I'm using

[18:05] everything. For me, it's all the same

[18:09] tasks with tennis balls, with a with a

[18:11] stick. I I'll use anything because my

[18:15] intention is not to get the success in

[18:17] the specifics, is to get the

[18:21] transformation

[18:23] much deeper. So, it's almost irrelevant.

[18:26] I'll use whatever I need to use to get

[18:28] that going.

[18:30] And so I think meditation many ways

[18:33] sometimes becomes too dogmatic in that

[18:35] sense.

[18:36] >> Yeah, we've already touched on sort of

[18:38] liinal states transition from sleep to

[18:40] waking or waking to sleep and trying to

[18:44] just catch oneself and pause in those

[18:46] like you said maybe reverse maybe pause

[18:48] there hover there. I'm fascinated by

[18:51] this peculiar place we are with science

[18:55] where we know a lot more about sleeping

[18:58] states can describe phase one phase two

[19:00] phase three slow wave deep sleep REM

[19:02] sleep the fraction that you get

[19:03] depending on the night before vivid

[19:05] dreams versus non vivid dreams

[19:08] we know barely anything scientifically

[19:14] about waking states in comparison to

[19:16] sleeping states I mean we talk alpha

[19:18] waves beta waves theta waves but It's

[19:20] very rudimentary. Like right now,

[19:23] I assure you there's no scientific paper

[19:26] that could describe the state that we're

[19:28] in. We could say, oh, the these alpha

[19:30] waves or these, you know, percentage of

[19:33] activity in one brain area or another. I

[19:36] think that the definition of different

[19:39] waking states is going to come into

[19:42] science from outside of science. someone

[19:44] will study it. But I've been waiting for

[19:46] somebody to say like this is uh like are

[19:49] we in stage one of focused attention

[19:51] right now? Stage four. Nobody can ex um

[19:54] point to this which is should bother

[19:57] people. Like we're we're really far

[19:59] behind even a descriptive understanding

[20:02] of where we're at. Like I feel calm

[20:04] right now despite drinking caf so much

[20:06] caffeine. You're clearly externally

[20:09] calm. I imagine you're internally calm.

[20:11] But what would you describe like your

[20:13] state? How should people start to peel

[20:15] back the layers and get a better

[20:17] understanding of the state they're in?

[20:18] Because I think there's real value to

[20:19] this in waking states. And I don't have

[20:21] a language for it, but you've spent a

[20:24] lot more time thinking about mindbody

[20:26] states than I have. I think there is a a

[20:29] a m a mistake or a direction that we

[20:33] took asking who we are

[20:38] instead of asking what we are which can

[20:40] really serve this. There is a need of

[20:44] almost a a rudimentary map of what is

[20:50] what is needed what is here how do I map

[20:54] this what am I observing even you can't

[20:57] refine what you can't define but not in

[20:59] the sense of this verbal definition but

[21:01] some kind of an internal definition some

[21:04] kind of a boundary drawn some kind of a

[21:08] selection

[21:10] the selected thing the selected state

[21:13] the differentiation

[21:16] without this

[21:19] what am I seeing when I look inside

[21:21] listen to your body

[21:23] I don't believe in that

[21:26] >> portal doesn't believe in listen to your

[21:27] body right what do you listen to

[21:29] >> what are you listening

[21:30] >> your heartbeat your what does that mean

[21:33] >> it's corrupted you're too corrupted to

[21:36] listen to your body

[21:37] >> those are the most corrupted people

[21:39] usually

[21:40] >> the people who are saying listen to your

[21:41] body.

[21:42] >> Yes. I think it that whole verbiage

[21:45] comes from this notion and the quite

[21:49] pioneering although I would say somewhat

[21:52] outof-date book the body keeps the score

[21:54] I think is it was an important book best

[21:56] title of any book you could imagine in

[21:59] the psychology space because it's so

[22:00] catchy um and I want to give proper

[22:03] respect to um Bessel [clears throat]

[22:05] for doing that book and it was early but

[22:08] I think that embedded in people's minds

[22:11] that like experiences we have live as

[22:16] pain, discomfort or blockages and that

[22:20] the [clears throat] solutions come from

[22:21] releasing that pain, discomfort and

[22:23] blockage. Erggo, if I'm feeling good,

[22:28] things are moving through. I'm making

[22:29] progress. I'm moving away from that

[22:31] historical bad thing. And if I'm feeling

[22:34] it again, it's still alive in me and it

[22:37] needs to be released. That's the kind of

[22:39] premise.

[22:40] >> Yeah. And there a lot of data to support

[22:41] that chronic stress can harm the body

[22:43] and so forth. So those things those

[22:44] ideas sort of took off. But I also agree

[22:46] they sort of they've kind of hit a wall

[22:49] in um 2020 or so. We go well what like

[22:53] what do you mean? Well it's in the

[22:54] fascia really like is it in the fascia

[22:57] or are we just like talking about

[22:58] fascia? And and I love all of that stuff

[23:00] as an exploration but I think we are at

[23:03] a place where we really need to ask

[23:05] better questions.

[23:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's a it's it it sounds

[23:09] very corrupted again. And we know so

[23:12] much about

[23:14] the framing of things, excitement

[23:17] versus, you know, very negative states

[23:19] that it's so similar. It's so close

[23:23] that it cannot make sense. We cannot

[23:25] work from that place. And and also

[23:28] working from our likes and dislikes.

[23:30] What do I want to do? We just watch this

[23:33] thing. You just need to do what you want

[23:36] to do. I believe that's the last thing

[23:39] for you to do.

[23:40] >> Right. Um, you know, I was referring to

[23:42] before we came in here, we watched two

[23:44] short films. The first one is a one that

[23:46] was u put out in 2014 about this guy,

[23:50] real life guy slow-mo. uh we'll put a

[23:52] link to it who uh guy who essentially

[23:55] gave up his life as a physician and say

[23:57] rollerblades very slowly on one leg down

[24:00] the boardwalk in Pacific Beach San Diego

[24:03] to touch into

[24:05] what he describes as a mild euphoria and

[24:08] altered state he's totally sober clearly

[24:11] very very smart and the other film we'll

[24:15] talk about several times uh which

[24:17] hopefully will be out in the not too

[24:18] distant future so we can all see a

[24:20] beautiful film that's being made about

[24:23] IDO and movement culture called the

[24:25] architecture of practice. Correct.

[24:28] >> Internal architecture.

[24:28] >> The internal architecture of practice.

[24:30] Excuse me. Um trust me folks, you want

[24:33] to see this when it comes out. It's it's

[24:35] visually beautiful and content uh rich.

[24:39] It's it's spectacular.

[24:41] >> Thank you.

[24:41] >> There's something really special there.

[24:43] Uh for sure. But I wrote down actually

[24:46] play versus discipline. I think for some

[24:50] people it would be helpful

[24:52] to try and uh operationalize a bit of

[24:56] what we're going to go to today. And I

[24:59] know you're not a fan of like morning

[25:01] routine or this or that, but I can

[25:02] imagine walking toward a practice of any

[25:05] kind, a workout of any kind, making

[25:08] scrambled eggs

[25:10] as either I'm going to approach approach

[25:12] this from a with a sense of play or I'm

[25:15] going to approach this with a sense of

[25:17] discipline. I'm going to try and find

[25:19] some friction, some edges that force me

[25:22] to rewire something. Now, play can help

[25:25] rewire, discipline can help rewire, but

[25:27] of your waking hours, what percentage of

[25:30] time do you spend in kind of a playful

[25:33] explorative state, like kind of keep it

[25:35] light and loose versus, you know, I know

[25:37] you're also a believer in like there's

[25:39] really value to putting up mental or

[25:42] physical or both corridors so that your

[25:45] system, your whole system improves

[25:48] because at those friction points is

[25:50] where plasticity

[25:51] can be triggered. I think both of these

[25:54] things and also the relation to

[25:57] motivation

[25:58] in in both of them are

[26:03] required scaffoldings

[26:06] that we have to use at certain points in

[26:08] time but are not the essential

[26:12] will

[26:14] that connection to what we we don't know

[26:19] nothing about that we have researched

[26:22] that deeply in v various spheres but

[26:26] often we just replace pure will with

[26:30] discipline

[26:32] or with motivation but once I motivated

[26:35] myself I don't need will anymore and if

[26:38] I dis if I discipline myself into doing

[26:42] something I also hijack the opportunity

[26:46] playfulness it brings a direction and a

[26:50] flavor of something else a different way

[26:53] to interact with something. How do we

[26:56] start to look at that? What is the basic

[26:59] requirement? I don't want to do this.

[27:04] Without this requirement, I can't

[27:06] research will

[27:09] now if I hijack it, if I take the

[27:13] process and I distort it, I use

[27:14] discipline,

[27:16] then again, I'm out of the game. Or if I

[27:19] motivate myself, same problem.

[27:22] Playfulness try to walk a different path

[27:24] a little bit.

[27:28] Maybe it's not it quite. It's not the

[27:30] will that search for a will that you

[27:33] know many authors and and practitioners

[27:36] have looked for because it's so elusive.

[27:39] But it's definitely something to

[27:41] cultivate and we've talked about it the

[27:43] last time we met

[27:46] and it brings about so many positive

[27:48] things. I think people should first

[27:52] develop discipline

[27:55] and use motivation and also research

[27:59] playfulness which is a lot more tricky

[28:01] for people uh these days.

[28:04] It brings with it

[28:07] incredible benefits. The aesthetic

[28:10] intensities that are missing from our

[28:12] lives awe

[28:15] curiosity, this deep sense of curiosity,

[28:18] these things can allow us to totally

[28:21] transform the emotional schema which is

[28:24] stuck rigid.

[28:27] This model of ourselves that is often

[28:31] times

[28:32] rigidifies all the way to depression.

[28:35] The most tricky situation of all the

[28:38] total bankruptcy of that budget of those

[28:43] resources.

[28:46] So something like awe

[28:49] which happens also in psychedelics.

[28:51] Isn't this a huge part of the

[28:53] psychedelic thing? What about

[28:56] experiencing all regularly in a directed

[28:59] targeted and practiced way?

[29:03] It can be cold showers and hot shower an

[29:08] experience on the sensory level. It can

[29:10] be something that is more related to the

[29:12] environment like sky gazing. Incredible

[29:15] practice. 10 minutes a day. Your eyes

[29:17] cannot grab onto things. So and it can

[29:21] be and very important conceptual

[29:25] or reading poetry or certain types of

[29:30] stories or literature touches that so

[29:34] all of this comes along with playfulness

[29:37] our interaction with things I treat this

[29:41] as a playful thing

[29:42] >> so if I think about it it's almost

[29:44] always present because it allows me not

[29:48] to rigidify myself in front of the

[29:51] challenge. I'm working with athletes or

[29:53] work in cinema or do some project or

[29:55] work with a government body or or a

[29:57] military organization. I bring

[30:00] playfulness.

[30:01] Playfulness allows me to go much

[30:04] further, much deeper. My discipline

[30:09] wouldn't get me there.

[30:11] >> It got me certain places. Who got there

[30:15] to that place? I discovered that it

[30:17] wasn't me because I use discipline. So,

[30:20] it's often leaving you kind of out the

[30:23] totality of you.

[30:24] >> I am very very intrigued by this play

[30:28] versus discipline uh thing. So many

[30:32] years spent I wouldn't say punching the

[30:34] clock but you know there just things you

[30:36] have to do because experiments have to

[30:38] be done in this time in this way. one

[30:40] can develop a a real sense of an ability

[30:42] to push through and to do things and

[30:45] beautiful stuff can come out of what I

[30:46] call chop wood carry water. It's just

[30:48] like phase is like okay we're just going

[30:50] to chop wood carry water but this play

[30:53] thing is really powerful. I had this

[30:55] experience when I lived in San Diego. My

[30:58] lab started there and I I used to

[31:01] commute really far to work cuz I my home

[31:04] was um in an area that I really liked

[31:07] and that I could afford far from campus

[31:09] and the traffic was just brutal. Anyone

[31:12] that's ever driven in San Diego, these

[31:13] big wide eight lane freeways and and I

[31:16] like listening to music, so I would

[31:17] drive and I remember one morning just

[31:19] being so frustrated with the drive even

[31:21] though traffic was moving. And I've only

[31:23] had this experience once and I just

[31:25] decided I'm gonna just [clears throat]

[31:27] slalom the car to work. And I wasn't

[31:31] speeding. I'm like slaloming the car.

[31:33] I'm listening to music and I'm like this

[31:36] is the way to go to work. I can remember

[31:38] this one commute is a real standout

[31:40] experience in my life of like and I

[31:43] thought why don't I do this all the

[31:44] time?

[31:45] >> The old frog crosses the street video

[31:47] game.

[31:48] >> Right. Exactly. Exactly. So, I'm just,

[31:50] you know, and I get to work and I do

[31:52] thing and and this was one instance. I

[31:54] don't think I've ever done it again. And

[31:56] I like to drive, but I never

[31:58] deliberately turn on like I'm going to

[31:59] take an ordinary experience that I do

[32:01] every single day that usually is kind of

[32:04] like loathe or mildly irritated at

[32:08] traffic. I'm just going to enjoy this

[32:09] experience. I think now that it would be

[32:12] so great to just be able to apply that

[32:14] to all these different little

[32:15] transitions. Oddly enough, I also have

[32:18] flashbulb like memories of being in

[32:21] Yusede where I've spent a lot of time.

[32:22] I've hiked a lot of the peaks in Yusede.

[32:24] I love it. I live lived and worked up

[32:26] there when I was in college and I just

[32:28] adore. You know what? I remember the

[32:30] great vistas and great peas that I had

[32:34] urinating in the woods. I like have like

[32:36] flashb memories of like and there's

[32:38] something there. I think it's just the

[32:40] calm and relaxation like oh like I'm

[32:42] just a creature peeing in the woods, you

[32:44] know. And uh as one does, you know, when

[32:47] you when you count just thinking like

[32:49] this is awesome. I have these like my

[32:51] life is great. It's so weird that these

[32:53] micro experiences that occupy like 10 to

[32:56] 15 seconds or a minute depending on how

[32:58] much water you drink, right? One commute

[33:01] could grab like real mental real estate

[33:04] in our brain. There's something there.

[33:06] And I know people are probably like,

[33:07] "This is crazy." But I think most people

[33:10] would probably describe like kind of odd

[33:12] flashbulb memories that they have of

[33:13] things that are kind of trivial.

[33:15] >> Did you notice that the the quality of

[33:18] those memories

[33:20] >> cuz you recall them and it they it has a

[33:23] flavor and a texture and a resolution

[33:25] which is different than other things

[33:28] which sometimes are should have been a

[33:30] lot more detailed. And it comes and

[33:33] goes, but we can become a lot more

[33:36] deliberate about it. And it represents a

[33:39] certain presence

[33:41] in that specific scenario of a

[33:45] heightened it's a heightened presence

[33:47] thing. Why? Those are questions. But

[33:50] playfulness opens the door for that.

[33:53] Some of my best seats, my best

[33:55] meditations were using a playful

[33:58] approach.

[33:59] Similarly to how you navigate the

[34:02] traffic [gasps]

[34:03] you can use it writing your book.

[34:05] >> I tried that. It was very diff I will

[34:07] tell you it was very difficult because

[34:09] there's aspects of the book that are

[34:11] very technical. There are aspects that I

[34:12] really want to get communicate things in

[34:15] a certain way. I definitely tried to

[34:16] relax myself. Um Cal Newport who's a

[34:20] sort of a guy who's a big proponent of

[34:22] of deep work uh staying away from

[34:24] technology to you know writing by hand,

[34:27] typewriter, this kind of thing. He said

[34:29] uh and I tried this. He said to approach

[34:30] work with um kind of a languid

[34:33] intentionality kind of relaxed but with

[34:36] a direction. I tried it. I have to

[34:38] scruff myself and bring myself to it

[34:40] even though I want to do it and I just

[34:42] like have to like like I imagine I'm

[34:44] like doing this

[34:45] >> but that deep belief

[34:46] >> Yeah.

[34:47] >> is already a self-fulfilling prophecy

[34:50] cuz you perceive yourself as that

[34:52] person. This is the way for you to do

[34:55] things.

[34:55] >> Mhm. And I'm similar but I've glimpsed

[34:58] something else.

[35:00] Yes, I I also I'm the disciplinary

[35:04] person. I'm a person of great work ethic

[35:06] and

[35:08] this is how I came about. But then I

[35:10] discovered it doesn't matter because

[35:15] how you write that book using that

[35:17] approach it leaks into your words

[35:21] and it's a different way of doing

[35:24] things. you're not going to write

[35:27] doniote in this way. So I appreciate

[35:31] that and I also want to say come back to

[35:34] that thing this scaffolding the the fact

[35:38] that we have used discipline for such a

[35:40] long time is very positive we need that

[35:45] first thing is to get things done I'm

[35:48] the practice person I'm the met person

[35:50] you do it or you talk about it so

[35:53] discipline is very important but it's

[35:55] similar to the wall in learning to do a

[35:58] handstand if you Use the wall one way

[36:02] where you're all the time pushing

[36:03] yourself off of the wall. Try to catch

[36:05] your handstand.

[36:06] You become reliant on the wall. Notice

[36:09] what I said. You push yourself off of

[36:11] the wall. But there is a different

[36:13] approach. We can use the wall but pull

[36:17] off of it. Not quite push oursel off of

[36:20] it but pull off of it which comes from

[36:23] the other end from our hands from the

[36:25] connection to the ground. that does not

[36:28] necessitate a wall. So I can pull myself

[36:31] when I feel myself falling forward later

[36:33] on. This is the correct way to use

[36:36] discipline. You should use it as a

[36:39] scaffolding as a way to get things going

[36:41] like write that book. But inside the

[36:44] process, you must make sure you don't

[36:46] lean hard into it. You don't leave

[36:48] everything for it to dictate. And you

[36:52] bring some playfulness, some relaxation,

[36:56] some deep choice. I want to do this.

[37:00] It's so elusive.

[37:02] It's so tiny. Our life didn't leave any

[37:05] room for it anymore. We don't even

[37:07] recognize when will come to visit us.

[37:10] And here is the big shocker. It was for

[37:12] me that I discovered one does not

[37:15] develop the will.

[37:19] The will never gets developed.

[37:22] It's only get exposed.

[37:25] Discipline gets developed. That's what

[37:27] we mistaken will for. We call it will

[37:30] will power etc.

[37:33] But when a child is born with a problem,

[37:37] when you're facing such a situation,

[37:40] discipline might not be enough for you

[37:43] to do what is necessary. or when a child

[37:46] is born normal and you simply don't feel

[37:50] love for that child that occurs a lot

[37:54] what do I do now do I discipline myself

[37:57] I need a different quality and I need to

[38:01] research it and I need to open up space

[38:03] for it in my life space to practice it

[38:05] because it's not going to come from

[38:07] somewhere else and the practice will not

[38:09] develop it but it will expose an

[38:12] invisible thread it's a sequentiality

[38:15] I always do what I said I'm going to do,

[38:20] but not by disciplinary action, but by

[38:23] having a beautiful evasive sequence like

[38:26] you moving around the traffic, finding

[38:28] your way there. You never stopped

[38:31] looking for the best route. It's a very

[38:34] different approach than just pushing the

[38:37] gas pedal forward.

[38:38] >> Yeah. What's interesting is the traffic

[38:41] example, while trivial, it hopefully

[38:43] describes a process that people could

[38:45] relate to. Not only did I not lose

[38:47] energy from it, but I might have even

[38:50] picked up some energy.

[38:52] >> Beautiful.

[38:53] >> And the commute was exactly the same. So

[38:56] there's something in that experience and

[38:57] I and you're explaining it beautifully.

[39:00] This distinction between the will,

[39:03] willpower, the expression of the will

[39:06] and then discipline. Maybe we can define

[39:09] the difference a little bit more so that

[39:12] I can understand

[39:14] when I'm in

[39:17] discipline mode versus um exposing

[39:21] willpower. You said you can build

[39:22] discipline, you can't build the will.

[39:24] The will is a is a fixed unit but a

[39:27] hidden one, a very elusive one. [snorts]

[39:31] uh we can discuss it more and we will

[39:33] expose some things but we will not be

[39:35] successful in a binary fashion. We won't

[39:38] get it. The only way to get even a

[39:41] critical mess with that concept is self

[39:45] practice looking for that quality in

[39:48] your life and I already mentioned that

[39:51] the first requirement is to do things

[39:53] you don't want to do which you're also a

[39:56] big believer in from a variety of

[39:58] reasons.

[40:00] All of them are not as important as this

[40:04] because they go to serve this layer,

[40:07] this corrupted self, this success in

[40:10] this area. This is not important. What

[40:13] is important is you not all those

[40:16] things. And will is actually that

[40:19] representation of you. The totality, the

[40:24] harmonious combination of all that you

[40:27] are comes together and hence you can be

[40:30] reliable. You have a sequence. You found

[40:34] a way. You cannot push this forward. You

[40:38] cannot force this. So you need first a

[40:40] situation which you cannot you don't

[40:42] want to do. So I tell people here is the

[40:45] first requirement of this new practice

[40:48] practice of will.

[40:50] You have to wait for a moment. You don't

[40:52] want to do the task. That's the first

[40:54] thing. Not to go to the ice bath now.

[40:58] This is a different process and will get

[41:00] you somewhere else. Come up with a task

[41:05] that only sometimes you don't want to

[41:07] do. It's a crucial difference. And wait

[41:10] for that moment. In that moment, catch

[41:13] yourself. And there you have to

[41:16] investigate. There there is a very fine

[41:19] little game. It comes back to that

[41:22] playfulness that we have to play. Do not

[41:25] force into it. Don't jailbreak it. Don't

[41:30] push hard into it. Second problem, do

[41:33] not motivate yourself to do it. Don't

[41:35] put any YouTube clips. Don't mention

[41:37] slogans.

[41:40] Relax yourself.

[41:43] Essential component. Do not rigidify in

[41:46] front of the task. If you do, lower the

[41:49] bar. Find the task that has this right

[41:51] dosage and build up gradually and

[41:54] slowly. I like to use things like

[41:57] difficult physical postures

[42:00] like holding your arms out for 5

[42:03] minutes. It's enough. Just straight arms

[42:05] out. Some people can take it further

[42:09] or 3 minutes or doing a horse stance and

[42:13] then wait for a critical moment when I'm

[42:16] tired. A lot of these things are very

[42:18] useful. So I've grown to practice those

[42:20] things before I at the end of the day

[42:24] when I'm checking out that is the moment

[42:26] where I bring it about. And then you

[42:29] have to research and you have to find a

[42:32] thread, a way to get this going again

[42:36] and again and again with this gentle

[42:38] quality, this playfulness, this softness

[42:41] and slowly increase the bar. What will

[42:44] you discover? Your will is sufficient is

[42:47] like a mosquito's fart. That's the power

[42:50] of our will. Even incredibly powerful

[42:53] people because they only use discipline.

[42:56] So their will is totally they don't know

[42:58] how to identify it. They don't know how

[42:59] to put it together. So you got to do

[43:01] stuff that is so easy relatively easy

[43:06] that you're not interested in doing it.

[43:08] And that's why we don't develop will. So

[43:11] these are some of the discoveries that I

[43:13] I had with myself and trying to bring

[43:16] about this quality because like you I

[43:18] did a lot of stuff with powering

[43:21] through. I think the value of a physical

[43:23] practice um is probably obvious to

[43:26] people or more intuitive like okay um

[43:30] for some people ex exercise working out

[43:33] movement practice perhaps there'll be

[43:35] days when they want to do it there'll be

[43:37] days when they don't want to do it if I

[43:38] understand correctly

[43:41] the idea is to get right up to that edge

[43:44] and then instead of throwing oneself

[43:47] across that threshold or getting enough

[43:50] caffeine in yourself to get across cross

[43:51] that threshold or doing hyper cyclic

[43:53] hyperventilation breathing to get all

[43:55] the things to kick up adrenaline talking

[43:59] about getting right there relaxing and

[44:02] almost letting yourself sort of drift

[44:03] across but am I pushing a little bit am

[44:07] I giving myself a nudge like to keep

[44:09] going okay so I don't expect myself to

[44:11] just default into it okay do you still

[44:14] have to do that I mean you've been doing

[44:15] movement practice many years are there

[44:18] days when you feel that resistance And

[44:21] you have to kind of nudge yourself

[44:22] course if I don't feel the resistance I

[44:26] don't have will. I don't develop will

[44:27] and I don't have will. The whole point

[44:30] of will is that it only comes to visit

[44:32] and it's only necessary when there is a

[44:34] resistance.

[44:35] >> So you see those as opportunities

[44:37] >> as well.

[44:38] >> Mhm.

[44:39] >> As well. But this is this is the trick.

[44:41] But the to answer your question, my

[44:43] answer might be a bit trickier than what

[44:45] most people assume.

[44:47] They want the remove of the the removal

[44:51] of the problem and will that's the whole

[44:54] point of will

[44:55] >> right not to remove the problem and not

[44:57] to also jailbreak it

[45:00] and you've described it beautifully

[45:03] and imagine even that clip that you saw

[45:07] or over the last years things that you

[45:10] saw me you see me do they're not

[45:13] impressive anymore

[45:15] I can still kick up here and do a one-

[45:17] arm and stand in the center of the room.

[45:19] My body looks different by choice and

[45:23] how I move is different because I

[45:25] discovered this is not going anywhere.

[45:28] I've already been there. I've already

[45:31] done that. I've used motivation,

[45:34] discipline, this quality. I'm looking

[45:38] for something much more powerful, but

[45:40] much more gentle as well. So I had to go

[45:43] back to baby steps and to play that game

[45:47] that you you just mentioned beautifully,

[45:50] the edge. Stand at the edge

[45:54] and it has to be an edge. You're almost

[45:56] not sure if you choose that task whether

[45:59] it's difficult enough or not. It's not

[46:01] the only practice. It's just another

[46:03] flavor that is important for us to

[46:05] practice. I still practice my

[46:06] discipline. I still practice extremely

[46:08] difficult things. But it's an important

[46:11] flavor that I missed.

[46:13] >> Mhm.

[46:14] >> And I think most people are missing it.

[46:16] They have no interest in doing it. It's

[46:18] too easy. They don't understand the

[46:21] point is not in the task at all. The

[46:23] point is is in the quality that

[46:25] develops, the attribute that develops

[46:27] inside of us, which is one of the most

[46:29] important basic attributes. I want to

[46:32] know when I'm going to war with you,

[46:35] whatever war that is, that you're

[46:37] reliable to have a word.

[46:40] And that cannot rely on caffeine or on

[46:45] on discipline. And and you can play this

[46:47] game. I'm right now extremely

[46:48] jet-lagged. So I'm I'm very tired. So I

[46:52] play this game with myself. I I have

[46:54] this little internal smile here in my

[46:58] jaw inside. I I I play I pay attention

[47:02] to what is going on in the internal

[47:04] realm, this interceptive thing and I

[47:08] play a game. Before I used to kind of

[47:10] push against it, harden against it and

[47:13] push through whatever needs to be done

[47:16] and so this way of practicing taught me

[47:18] a lot.

[47:20] >> I'd like to take a quick break and

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[48:38] subscription. Yeah, I'm I'm very

[48:41] intrigued by this this notion of of play

[48:44] because I do think that it's energy

[48:47] conserving if not energy building. And

[48:50] it's kind of incredible, right? I mean,

[48:52] we know that neuroplasticity is

[48:54] triggered by friction points, you know,

[48:55] some level of autonomic arousal. How why

[48:58] else would the nervous system change if

[48:59] it can do what it needs to do? You need

[49:01] a change in the millu, the chemical

[49:03] environment. But if one can get it from

[49:05] play, that's awesome because the other

[49:09] thing takes literally adrenaline,

[49:11] norepinephrine. Yes, we love dopamine,

[49:13] but that little cocktail of

[49:15] catacolamines as we call them, that is

[49:18] energy. That's chi. That's the It's

[49:20] energetically costly to be in that

[49:22] state. Play is a different cocktail. It

[49:25] includes some of those, but it includes

[49:27] some other stuff, too. We know this

[49:28] neurochemically. So, I'm not just

[49:30] speaking in metaphors. And it does seem

[49:33] to open something up. And it's a sounds

[49:36] so subtle. I'm going to be playful about

[49:38] this really important thing, this

[49:40] challenging thing versus I'm going to

[49:42] just, you know, I'm going to just drill

[49:44] into this. the rigidity that comes about

[49:47] is is almost instantaneous

[49:49] >> and it's more representative of you in

[49:53] the way that I see this word you self I

[49:58] because again that that the use of that

[50:00] cocktail that the jailbreaking

[50:04] is a very it removes something from

[50:08] engaging it it numbs something. So here

[50:12] this is the most crucial point. We get

[50:14] to transform ourselves

[50:17] by choosing to do something deeply

[50:21] saying I want to do this in the moment

[50:25] that you don't want to do this to find

[50:28] that paradoxical thing. It's a

[50:30] multistability. You have to be able to

[50:33] glimpse these two things to feel this

[50:35] emotional contradiction and to remain

[50:38] functional without collapsing to remain

[50:40] functional and moving forward leaning

[50:43] forward into the direction. This is a

[50:46] critical way of doing this is a a big

[50:49] passion of mine in the last years cuz I

[50:52] realized it's so crucial such a missing

[50:55] component

[50:57] and having listened to you and and and

[51:00] various people that you brought along

[51:02] really helped me helped me see it to

[51:05] understand it to look at the scientific

[51:09] side and the anatomy and the and the way

[51:11] that we are constructing these models

[51:14] and to see if that match matches my

[51:16] experience and what exactly is missing

[51:18] and where am I lying to myself in that

[51:20] sense. So it turned out to be a valuable

[51:24] insight.

[51:25] >> It's come up before on a few podcasts

[51:27] and you may have heard this but I'll

[51:28] just briefly describe we have a finally

[51:31] thanks to the work largely of my

[51:33] colleague Joe Parveves at Stanford. We

[51:34] have a neurological understanding of

[51:37] tenacity and willpower and the

[51:39] plasticity that is this anterior mids

[51:41] singulate cortex that gets activated

[51:42] when we don't want to do something and

[51:44] we force ourselves to do it and that

[51:46] structure enlarges and it becomes easier

[51:48] to access and so we you know in that

[51:50] sense the the discipline piece really

[51:52] can be built up

[51:54] >> definitely

[51:54] >> the recognition that oh I don't want to

[51:56] do this feels a lot like the I don't

[51:57] want to do that and I was able to do

[51:59] that that anterior midsulate cortex can

[52:02] go to work on a number of things it's a

[52:04] it's a real thing. We don't yet have the

[52:09] coralate structure for the play piece.

[52:11] >> Definitely

[52:11] >> and it may be distributed, right? We

[52:13] always want to think there's a

[52:14] structure, the amygdala, fear, inter

[52:16] midsulate cortex, tenacity, but these

[52:18] are circuit phenomena. But but it would

[52:20] be so nice to be able to find a neural

[52:22] coralate because there does seem to be

[52:24] something very special about people in

[52:27] their 70s, 80s, 90s who

[52:30] >> they're in the longevity game clearly

[52:33] and they're taking great care of their

[52:35] bodies and their minds, but there's a

[52:37] playful spirit in there that

[52:40] is never discussed in this whole

[52:42] longevity thing, but it's clearly very

[52:45] very crucial. hard to research that of

[52:48] course from obvious reasons it's much

[52:50] more easier to to research this

[52:52] discipline right

[52:53] >> to be playful

[52:56] I I want to I want to give something

[53:00] positive we all meet this quality even

[53:03] many of us believe I never am in this

[53:07] state investigate

[53:10] >> investigate into your past like you

[53:13] mentioned this moment of driving but I I

[53:16] want to tell you something.

[53:19] Investigate yesterday. It was also there

[53:23] for moments. For brief moments, you can

[53:25] always and by studying this, you would

[53:27] help yourself because it is always

[53:30] present. It's almost guaranteed to be

[53:33] there even in extremely depressed

[53:36] people. Part of the problem of

[53:38] depression is this rigidity

[53:40] to change to to recognize these positive

[53:44] moments, right? and to to to transform

[53:46] the model. So we don't end up harvesting

[53:51] it but it's there. It's an important

[53:54] thing because without

[53:57] learning the flavor and the texture of

[53:59] that we have no chance of approaching

[54:03] that developing this playfulness this

[54:05] will this softness about things that can

[54:08] do a lot. There's a third bin which I

[54:12] think people default to including myself

[54:14] right I think about discipline will or

[54:18] laziness sloth and wasting time. Right

[54:21] now we're talking about using discipline

[54:24] or a mode of play to do something. These

[54:26] days it seems a lot of having a good

[54:29] life is about not doing certain things.

[54:32] mostly for most people not having your

[54:36] consciousness and your body pulled into

[54:39] algorithms. You know, I'm a fan of

[54:41] social media. I learn there. I

[54:44] [clears throat] see you there. I try and

[54:46] teach there. But there is a way in which

[54:49] our body shape, our mental shape can be

[54:52] structured around this wheel of infinite

[54:56] stimuli. That's how I think about it

[54:57] now. Now when I go into uh social media,

[55:01] I think about it as a wheel of infinite

[55:03] stimula. Like a rat in an experiment. If

[55:06] I want to keep that rat engaged, just

[55:08] give it this, give it that. Doesn't like

[55:09] this, give it that. I mean, that's the

[55:10] algorithm. I try and see myself in it so

[55:13] that I can navigate it with some

[55:14] intentionality like, oh, this is

[55:16] interesting. I'm actually quite

[55:17] inspired. I'm not just saying this by

[55:20] the content you've put up over the

[55:21] years. I really think hard about the

[55:23] I've gone and looked up authors. You

[55:24] know, your philosophers and many things

[55:26] I don't know. So I I follow up on those.

[55:29] In the domain of strength training,

[55:32] there's this guy Tom Havland. I think he

[55:34] was used to be Australian special

[55:35] forces. He only posts from the back. He

[55:37] doesn't disclose his identity. Very

[55:39] large guy. Um doing zer squats, you

[55:42] know, where the bar is in the crook of

[55:43] the elbow with, you know, 500 plus

[55:45] pounds with pauses and it's very, you

[55:48] know, if you really impressive feats of

[55:51] strength. So I see and learn and

[55:54] inspired by things I see in social

[55:55] media. Sends me down the path of

[55:58] learning. I didn't even know what a zer

[55:59] squat was until recently. It's kind of

[56:01] cool. Like I know the crooks of elbows

[56:03] could hold that much. And the core

[56:04] bracing is really interesting. But a lot

[56:07] of my life these days is about no this

[56:10] is not a stimulus space I want to spend

[56:13] time in. I'm 50 now. I don't know how

[56:16] long I'll live. Hopefully a long time.

[56:18] But allocation of energy is like 90% of

[56:23] the game of life, right? Maybe more. So

[56:27] when you think about practices for

[56:30] resisting

[56:31] doing something, the no-go as we say in

[56:34] neuroscience, not go tasks, but no go.

[56:37] How do you think about pulling back in a

[56:41] playful way? That's a little bit harder.

[56:43] Beautiful question and very important

[56:47] thing to to look at to examine and I I

[56:50] can offer my my personal experiences

[56:53] that's the only thing that I can but

[56:56] again the pullback deleting the app

[57:00] you know take something off throwing

[57:03] your phone on the rooftop

[57:04] >> done it done it

[57:05] >> that's why I mentioned it cuz you told

[57:07] me last time we met

[57:08] >> yeah when I used to have to write grants

[57:10] I would either give my phone to my

[57:12] students early days and I'd say if I

[57:13] asked for that back before 5:00 p.m.

[57:16] today, everyone in lab gets a $100 bill.

[57:19] I didn't have the money to do that. I

[57:22] didn't ask for it back by 5 or throw it

[57:25] on the roof and go get it later. And

[57:27] this action, I'm not against it. May

[57:30] maybe it sounds like it's jailbreaking

[57:33] something, but it's a required moment.

[57:38] One of the first thing with will

[57:41] is the recognition that we're not in

[57:43] contact with it that we don't possess

[57:45] and we should verify it for ourselves by

[57:48] trying to do things

[57:50] which are definitely possible and we

[57:54] can't we can't do them.

[57:56] >> Mhm. [clears throat] How do I pull back

[58:00] in this way? Isn't this good to delete

[58:04] the app?

[58:06] It's a way of

[58:08] paying upfront.

[58:11] It's painful and it's costly. It's

[58:14] expensive. It's a required thing. Part

[58:18] of me say

[58:20] I'm not sure I'll be here in a few more

[58:23] moments. I'm going to take this action.

[58:26] It reminds me of I have great fear of

[58:28] heights.

[58:29] >> You?

[58:29] >> Yeah. It reminds me when I went to

[58:33] bungee jump the first time with friends

[58:36] decades ago in Greece and I'm climbing

[58:38] up there and I'm watching down this tiny

[58:40] swimming pool from the crane and I

[58:43] realized in that moment there is no way

[58:46] I'm jumping down and the other part of

[58:49] me realized there is no way I'm climbing

[58:52] down

[58:53] the girl screaming down there you know

[58:56] and I I just stood there and I just I

[58:58] just kind of threw myself forward. I

[59:00] jailbreed it years after I've I redone

[59:04] it with a different quality.

[59:07] I softened into it.

[59:09] >> Mhm. [clears throat]

[59:10] >> And I found a way to

[59:13] come down feeling this great

[59:17] pain, physical pain, and at the same

[59:20] time the multi-stability feel a

[59:23] softness, a wave of softness passing

[59:25] through me as tiny as it was. So when

[59:27] I'm pulling back it's very important

[59:30] that I interact with this action also in

[59:33] that way that I don't force myself in a

[59:36] sad mazoistic way that I don't do this

[59:39] action from that place maybe it's the

[59:42] beginning of the process maybe it's

[59:43] something that is a required stepping

[59:45] stone something that you have to do but

[59:47] later you learn to soften into it and

[59:51] eventually you can leave the app you

[59:53] don't delete it and it's there and you

[59:56] keep on softening as it jumps calling

[1:00:00] you back again and again and again and

[1:00:01] you've developed this feedback. You've

[1:00:03] changed, you've transformed your model

[1:00:06] and there is a new reaction

[1:00:09] to that stimulus and you relax. When

[1:00:12] when the stimulus calls your name, you

[1:00:15] recognize it, note it, and the first

[1:00:18] thing that you do, you soften yourself,

[1:00:20] you relax, you put a little smile on,

[1:00:23] and only then do you go back to the task

[1:00:25] at hand. You change the way instead of

[1:00:28] saying no, I don't want to go back into

[1:00:31] social media now. I want to work on my

[1:00:33] book and forcing yourself back. You take

[1:00:35] another extra step.

[1:00:38] Oh, it's calling my name again.

[1:00:42] I note it. I recognized it. I soften

[1:00:45] myself. And only then do I go back to

[1:00:47] the test at hand. The outcome would be

[1:00:49] totally different. Millions of times

[1:00:51] forward. Done again and again. you would

[1:00:54] be amazed by the difference.

[1:00:57] >> I absolutely get what you're saying that

[1:00:59] there's something about paying attention

[1:01:02] to the subtle trans subtle ripples like

[1:01:06] they're these ripples and that language

[1:01:08] of the subtle ripples of consciousness

[1:01:10] makes it sound like I'm trying to be

[1:01:11] poetic, but I I really can't find a

[1:01:14] better language than these like subtle

[1:01:16] ripples. It's the same thing, I believe,

[1:01:20] as noticing the transition between

[1:01:23] asleep and awake. Just a little bit more

[1:01:25] each day. Maybe some days you miss it.

[1:01:27] You just pop up and go into the day and

[1:01:28] then you I missed I missed the there

[1:01:30] were these ripples in between. But

[1:01:32] catching them, this is one of the most

[1:01:35] important attributes

[1:01:37] also in the physical body that I believe

[1:01:39] is totally missing from our physical

[1:01:41] modern movement, culture, physical

[1:01:44] practice. Granularity. I call it bodily

[1:01:48] resolution in the application to the

[1:01:50] body. Notice I'm not talking about

[1:01:53] mobility or definitely not about

[1:01:56] flexibility. There is a certain

[1:01:59] refinement and with it a certain

[1:02:02] complexity

[1:02:04] that if it's not challenged by novelty

[1:02:07] and by certain qualities of attention,

[1:02:09] there is a deterioration of the model.

[1:02:11] There is a simplification. There is a

[1:02:14] hardening of the body schema. It becomes

[1:02:17] more black and whitish and living in

[1:02:20] this physical form becomes hell.

[1:02:23] [snorts] The same thing happens in the

[1:02:25] emotional schema in the emotional model

[1:02:27] of ourselves. And the same thing happens

[1:02:29] on the conceptual or intellectual

[1:02:32] abstraction model.

[1:02:34] The same thing happen in the social

[1:02:36] schema. The same thing happen on the

[1:02:38] spatial schema. If you don't continue to

[1:02:42] make it detailed and to appreciate the

[1:02:45] details, you will have a deterioration.

[1:02:48] You're moving up or down. There is no

[1:02:51] status quo that it's never stable.

[1:02:53] Hence, guess what? Most people going to

[1:02:56] the gym, doing these runs,

[1:03:00] they totally lost something and they

[1:03:02] don't even know. They're not as they

[1:03:05] were as children. They don't look like

[1:03:08] that. Kung Fu master in Beijing, 5:00 am

[1:03:11] at the park walking with the stout of a

[1:03:15] a child. We like to mention blue zones,

[1:03:19] but we don't you don't look like the

[1:03:22] blue zones. We like to mention the

[1:03:24] importance of muscle mass for longevity,

[1:03:26] but which muscle mass are you talking

[1:03:28] about? Not that muscle mass. It's a

[1:03:31] different quantity.

[1:03:34] So we kind of moved away from those fine

[1:03:39] things and the refinement of them is

[1:03:42] very very important emotionally the

[1:03:45] emotional granularity

[1:03:47] to recognize it's so important.

[1:03:51] Depression puts everything into the

[1:03:53] black and white thing. So it's the

[1:03:56] extreme and then the other side is very

[1:03:59] high resolution of emotional

[1:04:02] appreciation and perception

[1:04:05] that can turn against you but only when

[1:04:08] the conceptual layer comes and

[1:04:10] manipulates that information. But as

[1:04:12] long as it stays within the

[1:04:14] nondiscursive

[1:04:17] the the raw Yeah. the raw thing coming

[1:04:21] from this alostostatic

[1:04:24] system. The the the the the

[1:04:27] way that we define our state like

[1:04:31] poetry. That's why also reading poetry

[1:04:34] helps and and reading literature helps

[1:04:36] in this way. It makes you a lot more

[1:04:38] complex. And now you discover it's not a

[1:04:42] good or bad thing anymore, but you're

[1:04:46] playing a different game. And here is

[1:04:47] the playfulness back. Mhm. Because I'm

[1:04:50] even playing game with that.

[1:04:53] Oh, I'm I feel bad. I feel good. I feel

[1:04:58] neutral. That thing starts to open up. I

[1:05:02] abandon this and I go back to the body.

[1:05:06] And that's why I like to send people

[1:05:09] back to the body. The eye is a lot more

[1:05:13] this than what we think it is,

[1:05:15] especially meditators, etc. is not up

[1:05:19] here. And of course they're talking

[1:05:22] about it the way of the heart and you

[1:05:24] know the har the danten etc. But

[1:05:29] you can see when somebody is

[1:05:32] embodied

[1:05:33] there are signs there are cues to it in

[1:05:36] the way that people move in the way that

[1:05:38] they are here. [snorts] And I I often

[1:05:41] don't see those those those clues and

[1:05:45] then there is a great deterioration. So

[1:05:48] I I don't care so much about structures

[1:05:50] these days about muscle mass about you

[1:05:53] know the joint protective things the

[1:05:56] connective tissue or whatever because I

[1:05:57] believe the model deteriorates way

[1:06:00] before and the consequences come after

[1:06:02] once the model has degraded the

[1:06:05] simulation now we are in trouble and now

[1:06:08] the the the structural effects are just

[1:06:10] following that years forward decades

[1:06:12] forward and then we discover it it's too

[1:06:14] late

[1:06:15] words are dangerous

[1:06:17] like the spinal column. Do you know how

[1:06:20] many spines this destroyed?

[1:06:23] Countless. It's not a column. And

[1:06:26] treating it like a column destroys our

[1:06:29] spine. It's the way that I model myself.

[1:06:31] Even in my words, I can I can sense that

[1:06:35] I can feel that different languages have

[1:06:37] different words for those things and

[1:06:39] clues are there. the lack of

[1:06:41] appreciation of fine micro actions

[1:06:44] inside the torso in between the ribs, we

[1:06:47] don't appreciate it.

[1:06:49] The way that we distribute

[1:06:52] pressure in the body practices that I

[1:06:55] engage with, that I teach, that I work

[1:06:57] with, they're very powerful, but we

[1:06:59] don't leave room for that. We want to

[1:07:01] go, we want to do something quickly,

[1:07:03] crudely, and we deteriorate.

[1:07:06] And then we go to the protocols. We go

[1:07:09] to the help help me and and yeah there

[1:07:13] is some help the there is definitely

[1:07:16] some help there but to lift it into a

[1:07:19] meaningful healing is not often done. I

[1:07:24] I believe because the practice is

[1:07:26] missing the notion of high resolution

[1:07:29] versus low resolution language

[1:07:33] movement and awareness. Maybe we just

[1:07:35] kind of grab those three and I know

[1:07:37] there there are others. I think about

[1:07:38] this a lot. Uh let's start with

[1:07:40] language. Lisa Feldman Barrett, who's a

[1:07:43] psychologist, I would also consider

[1:07:45] somewhat of a neuroscientist because she

[1:07:47] collaborates with neuroscientists and is

[1:07:49] studies emotion. And she's been very

[1:07:51] clear and it's absolutely true that in

[1:07:54] cultures where there's many words to

[1:07:57] describe different aspects of sadness,

[1:07:59] aspects of happiness, even some

[1:08:02] extremely specific circumstances. is

[1:08:04] like there's a Japanese word, forgive

[1:08:05] me, I don't remember, for the the

[1:08:07] sadness one feels after a bad haircut.

[1:08:10] The more nuance and specificity, the

[1:08:14] less likely people are going to default

[1:08:17] to I'm sad, I'm depressed, just kind of

[1:08:20] like throw themselves in the broad bin.

[1:08:22] And uh I refer to it as the

[1:08:25] emojification

[1:08:26] of

[1:08:28] >> mental life. I'm happy. I'm sad. I'm

[1:08:30] depressed. I do think that it's nice to

[1:08:32] have a range of language ability so you

[1:08:36] can talk to people of different

[1:08:38] backgrounds. Some people are more

[1:08:40] hyperverbal than others. a colleague of

[1:08:42] mine at uh NYU um Tony Mauvshin who runs

[1:08:45] the center for neuroscience. He's he

[1:08:47] described an intellectual beautifully

[1:08:49] and you certainly uh fit this

[1:08:51] description which is an intellectual is

[1:08:54] somebody who can talk about and work

[1:08:56] with a concept or something at multiple

[1:08:59] levels of granularity that are

[1:09:01] appropriate for the conversation. like

[1:09:03] we're going pretty deep today peeling

[1:09:05] back layers looking you know if you have

[1:09:07] three minutes you know it's a different

[1:09:09] conversation but I think as you said

[1:09:12] this is the advantage of reading more

[1:09:14] challenging books at times or kids books

[1:09:17] which are very simple in essence but

[1:09:20] deliver the message in with in very

[1:09:22] succinctly

[1:09:23] >> generally right so I think there's real

[1:09:25] value to working up and down the ladder

[1:09:28] in language and having that at one's

[1:09:30] disposal

[1:09:31] >> and here is Another practice we go back

[1:09:34] to being pragmatic,

[1:09:36] ambiguity,

[1:09:39] incompleteness.

[1:09:42] Do you bring it about?

[1:09:45] >> Not having to have everything resolved.

[1:09:47] >> No.

[1:09:47] >> And not only in the terms of problem

[1:09:50] solving or or or or a physical what we

[1:09:53] call kinetic coins. This is great. This

[1:09:57] develops movement intelligence.

[1:09:58] Something that I work with a lot.

[1:10:00] reading puzzling symbolic texts,

[1:10:04] parallels,

[1:10:06] difficult to resolve things and maybe

[1:10:09] never resolve things or movies, watch

[1:10:11] Tarovski,

[1:10:13] Hodorovski,

[1:10:14] it's a very different experience than

[1:10:16] Hollywood or watching contemporary dance

[1:10:20] that is contemporary in the sense that I

[1:10:22] can't define it. It's happening right

[1:10:24] now and I'm not sure what I'm even

[1:10:26] watching here. I've been taken to some

[1:10:29] contemporary dance where I thought I

[1:10:31] don't know what I'm watching.

[1:10:32] >> Yeah. And the first time I went to wash,

[1:10:34] I said, "I don't like it." Yes.

[1:10:36] >> And I'm gonna come back. [laughter]

[1:10:38] >> That was the distinguishing factor

[1:10:39] between you and me. But I've since

[1:10:40] developed a real appreciation uh for uh

[1:10:44] there are some forms of dance that um

[1:10:47] Eric Jarvis was a guest on the podcast

[1:10:49] neuroscientist who was uh going to be

[1:10:51] part of the Alvin

[1:10:53] Dance Company took a hard left turn into

[1:10:56] neuroscience and studies language and

[1:10:58] will say this will a relevant tangent.

[1:11:02] The species of birds that can talk are

[1:11:05] also the ones that can dance. And he

[1:11:08] thinks bodily movement

[1:11:10] based on the genetics. He studies the

[1:11:12] genetics of language and the same genes

[1:11:15] that are in these speech areas are

[1:11:18] strongly expressed in very similar

[1:11:21] motifs

[1:11:22] >> in the areas of movement. So he thinks

[1:11:24] bodily movement is the fundamental

[1:11:26] language. I'll just leave it at that. I

[1:11:28] need to get you two in the same room at

[1:11:30] some point and then I won't just want to

[1:11:32] be there listening. If everything

[1:11:34] depends on language, we also have to be

[1:11:36] careful because then the granularity of

[1:11:39] language will be the limiting factor and

[1:11:42] it's huge pieces. So this like playing

[1:11:45] with play the the not Lego, you know,

[1:11:49] there was technical Lego, the small

[1:11:50] little bits. I love this.

[1:11:52] >> There was a normal Lego and then there

[1:11:54] was a the the big one, the big chunks

[1:11:57] that you started from. So, it's like

[1:11:59] you're working with these

[1:12:01] words are corrupted

[1:12:04] and they're corrupting us and they're

[1:12:07] supposed to be containers, but they

[1:12:09] don't they're not containers. They're

[1:12:11] more pointers,

[1:12:13] but we've lost what they're pointing at.

[1:12:15] The simulacum versus the sim simulation.

[1:12:20] Simulation is something that creates a

[1:12:24] model of something real. simulacum

[1:12:28] is now disconnected. There is not

[1:12:31] anymore that real thing. When I

[1:12:33] investigated this deeply with myself, I

[1:12:35] don't believe there is an inherent

[1:12:37] difference between these two, but there

[1:12:39] is definitely critical masses that can

[1:12:42] be achieved. For example,

[1:12:45] the sensory thing, sensor, sensory motor

[1:12:48] thing is a lot less corrupted than the

[1:12:51] conceptual schema. Even that is not

[1:12:55] reality. The senses don't bring reality.

[1:12:58] They model reality. They are simulation

[1:13:02] machines.

[1:13:02] >> Everything we experience is an

[1:13:04] abstraction of what our senses are

[1:13:07] pulling into our brain.

[1:13:09] >> Which means

[1:13:10] ignoring uniqueness,

[1:13:13] erasing differences for the sake of

[1:13:16] communicating it to the system even on

[1:13:19] the level of sensation because it would

[1:13:21] be overwhelming.

[1:13:24] We would be crushed

[1:13:26] by reality if the band wage is opened

[1:13:29] fully.

[1:13:30] >> Certainly if it was opened all at once.

[1:13:32] I mean I'm um

[1:13:33] >> this is also what happens with

[1:13:34] psychedelics by the way. Sometimes

[1:13:36] >> too much pours in. Yeah.

[1:13:38] >> There there is a bandage expansion

[1:13:40] >> too much cross talk. I mean we should

[1:13:42] acknowledge this you know so in the

[1:13:44] studies of psilocybin and it's um where

[1:13:47] it has been shown to improve major

[1:13:50] depression the typical outcome is you

[1:13:53] know scan before

[1:13:57] I should mention this is you know

[1:13:58] therapy assisted psychedelic um

[1:14:00] experience not just recreational therapy

[1:14:03] therapy therapy therapy with

[1:14:05] psychedelics therapy therapy therapy

[1:14:08] therapy with psychedelic we're talking

[1:14:10] about psilocybin here therapy Y therapy

[1:14:11] therapy therapy therapy. Not just head

[1:14:14] into the woods, eat a bunch of

[1:14:15] mushrooms, talk to your friends. The

[1:14:17] most consistent observation in the brain

[1:14:20] is a lot more connectivity between areas

[1:14:22] that weren't communicating prior to

[1:14:24] that, which can offer new opportunities

[1:14:26] for insight, new opportunities for um

[1:14:30] it's literal integration and the

[1:14:32] unmasking of connections that were there

[1:14:34] but were more or less suppressed. This

[1:14:36] can be a really good thing. It can also

[1:14:38] be a really bad thing. One of the

[1:14:41] hallmark definitions of psychosis is

[1:14:43] clang associations where people with

[1:14:45] schizophrenia or other forms of

[1:14:46] psychosis will say, you know, this is a

[1:14:48] really cool cup up. So everything's

[1:14:51] moving up or stock market, you know, and

[1:14:53] they they just follow the language in a

[1:14:55] meaningless way that any non-sychotic

[1:14:58] person says all they're doing is

[1:15:00] following the rhyming of the words.

[1:15:02] >> Those are not good connections to

[1:15:03] follow. If you want to be functional in

[1:15:04] the world, you might write an

[1:15:06] interesting

[1:15:07] book using that tool. consciously, but

[1:15:10] these people live in that reality. So,

[1:15:13] the pouring in and the cross

[1:15:15] connectivity, the plasticity, it's it's

[1:15:17] not always a good thing. I'd like to

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[1:15:59] really fast, meaning I have to jump

[1:16:00] right into work or right into exercise.

[1:16:03] So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I

[1:16:04] have sufficient electrolytes, when I

[1:16:06] first wake up in the morning, I drink 16

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[1:16:41] movement, I absolutely agree. I think

[1:16:43] that um people who are not exercising

[1:16:45] enough, not moving enough, not walking

[1:16:47] enough are starting to approximate a

[1:16:49] C-shape internally rotated. We see that

[1:16:52] if people are taking on an exercise

[1:16:54] program, which I think is generally

[1:16:56] healthy, walking more, hopefully doing

[1:16:59] some movement that gets their heart rate

[1:17:00] up, hopefully list lifting some objects

[1:17:03] that are outside their ability so then

[1:17:04] they get stronger and so forth. Okay,

[1:17:06] great. Should people do all of that and

[1:17:10] then start to think about

[1:17:13] the other syllables and vowels and and

[1:17:17] uh language of movement and incorporate

[1:17:19] that into their life or if given the

[1:17:22] choice should people start with

[1:17:26] many many forms of movement and the

[1:17:28] reason I ask this is a very practical

[1:17:30] one. Many people will say, "Well, this

[1:17:32] all sounds great, but I got to get up in

[1:17:34] the morning, make myself breakfast, take

[1:17:36] my kids to school, do all my things. I

[1:17:38] get 30 minutes. I need to get my heart

[1:17:40] rate up. Got to get my zone 3, four. I

[1:17:42] now have to lift things." You're telling

[1:17:44] me now I have to pay attention to the

[1:17:46] subtle ripples of movement, you know?

[1:17:48] So, I could see either argument being

[1:17:51] true that just like check off the boxes.

[1:17:55] heart health, muscle health, ligaments,

[1:17:57] fight deterioration,

[1:17:59] add something on top of that versus no,

[1:18:01] let's treat the whole system as having a

[1:18:04] lot more opportunity there and start

[1:18:06] there no matter where you are. That's

[1:18:09] that's a practical question embedded in

[1:18:11] a somewhat intellectual conversation.

[1:18:13] >> I'll push back.

[1:18:15] >> Mhm.

[1:18:16] >> The question is already corrupted.

[1:18:18] First, it's a exercise approach to

[1:18:21] physicality.

[1:18:23] I have 30 minutes a day and what do you

[1:18:26] do with the rest of your time? That is

[1:18:29] the push back.

[1:18:30] >> Mhm.

[1:18:32] >> What do we do that is so important that

[1:18:36] we don't have time to pay attention to

[1:18:39] the ripples of movement when we are

[1:18:41] living our lives, cooking, doing?

[1:18:45] When you're listening to me, are you

[1:18:47] fully engaged and listening to me? Now

[1:18:51] we are not using this time well.

[1:18:56] Even highly productive people actually

[1:18:58] those are often the case.

[1:19:02] They are never

[1:19:04] using the time well in the sense of that

[1:19:07] presence.

[1:19:09] So what I'm suggesting is a paradigm

[1:19:12] shift

[1:19:13] in the way that I view my physicality at

[1:19:16] all. the way that I view my day today,

[1:19:18] my being when I'm listening to you. I'm

[1:19:22] not running after these words in my head

[1:19:25] and

[1:19:27] I'm also in the physical experience of

[1:19:30] what is occurring right now and and I

[1:19:32] developed this through my practice. We

[1:19:34] need better education and we need better

[1:19:36] tools

[1:19:38] and this is the new limiting factor.

[1:19:42] Even AI recognizes it more and more and

[1:19:45] it will I predict become the crucial

[1:19:48] component. The body the sensory

[1:19:53] symbols

[1:19:55] that are popping out

[1:19:57] when a symbol comes to our mind that

[1:20:01] that that that

[1:20:03] impression those impressions that are

[1:20:05] they are so important

[1:20:08] without them there is nothing. And we've

[1:20:11] tried to go down to the the root of it.

[1:20:14] I've I've spent a lot of time reading

[1:20:16] about this and figuring out what is the

[1:20:18] raw currency of

[1:20:22] cognition of that ab ob abstraction

[1:20:25] schema. And I've heard many answers.

[1:20:28] There is the the primal or primitive

[1:20:30] semantics this point of view like

[1:20:33] something that is under language. And

[1:20:36] there is this um point of view from

[1:20:39] phenomenology

[1:20:40] and that this this area or or there is

[1:20:43] the invariance something that does not

[1:20:46] change no matter how you look at it

[1:20:47] that's the most crucial basic element

[1:20:50] but the best answer that I found is this

[1:20:53] drawing a boundary

[1:20:55] selecting which means when I look at you

[1:20:59] I select you from the environment

[1:21:03] I create a boundary inside my

[1:21:05] simulation. This is the most as as

[1:21:07] George Spencer Brown talks about this in

[1:21:10] laws of form. This is the the act of

[1:21:13] differentiation.

[1:21:15] This creates the most basic thought

[1:21:18] matter. It's a thing now. And the

[1:21:21] unselected state which also represents

[1:21:23] the the entropy second law of

[1:21:26] thermodynamics the the soup that wants

[1:21:28] to pull us back

[1:21:30] is

[1:21:32] the other side. So this selection and

[1:21:35] the unselected state which are

[1:21:37] codependent of course

[1:21:40] they are the very root of of things. So

[1:21:45] when we play this game of paying

[1:21:48] attention and the quality of it we are

[1:21:52] interacting

[1:21:54] underneath the problems with the system.

[1:21:58] We are going to the and I'm talking

[1:22:01] about this open presence pre- language

[1:22:05] thing that must inform the language

[1:22:07] formation anyways it doesn't come from

[1:22:09] anywhere so there must be something

[1:22:11] underneath and and I'm sure you can

[1:22:15] teach me a lot about that a lot more

[1:22:17] than what I researched myself but the

[1:22:20] experience of it myself is very

[1:22:22] important to try to find that gentle

[1:22:27] layer

[1:22:29] and to try to interact with it. This

[1:22:31] will transform the body schema and we

[1:22:34] have to teach it to children when we

[1:22:37] come about and some cultures maintain it

[1:22:39] to a larger degree and of course it

[1:22:41] depends on the language and on other

[1:22:42] habits. This is below exercise. This is

[1:22:46] and then I use exercise very efficiently

[1:22:49] when you have that when the model is

[1:22:52] addressed. I do this work with athletes.

[1:22:55] I do this work with grandmas. I do this

[1:22:57] work with Alzheimer patients, with

[1:23:00] musicians.

[1:23:01] This is very potent.

[1:23:04] So stop trying to fit me into something

[1:23:08] corrupted in that sense. I'm telling the

[1:23:10] world in that physical sense of I got to

[1:23:13] fit into this fitness practice. I got to

[1:23:16] fit into this exercise idea because when

[1:23:19] I'm looking deeper, I don't see a lot of

[1:23:22] promise there. Those are positive

[1:23:24] manipulations. They can be definitely,

[1:23:26] but we need to go further. And we're not

[1:23:29] because we stay with that 30 minutes a

[1:23:32] day idea.

[1:23:35] And this is everywhere. You don't need

[1:23:36] to become like me, a practitioner of

[1:23:38] movement all day. In the official side,

[1:23:40] it becomes the unofficial practice. Your

[1:23:43] way of being, your way of doing things.

[1:23:46] I turn everything into this. the way

[1:23:48] that I drink from the cup, the way that

[1:23:51] I sit right now, the way that I'm

[1:23:53] listening, and it's coming from the

[1:23:55] official side of my practice. I had to

[1:23:57] learn it in a structured way and then to

[1:24:00] pull it back into my life. Much more

[1:24:03] important than to learn to meditate.

[1:24:05] Much more potent because it is

[1:24:07] meditation in the deep sense of the

[1:24:09] word.

[1:24:10] >> You mentioned Alzheimer's. Um,

[1:24:13] there are more and more scientific

[1:24:15] findings all the time showing that loss

[1:24:18] of vision, subtle or severe, loss of

[1:24:22] hearing, subtle or severe, can either

[1:24:27] accelerate or maybe even cause some of

[1:24:31] the um deprivation

[1:24:34] symptoms of Alzheimer's, memory

[1:24:36] deprivation, uh, this kind of thing. And

[1:24:38] it makes good sense, right? Right? It's

[1:24:41] unfortunate, but it makes good sense.

[1:24:43] Meaning,

[1:24:44] if there are fewer inputs to the system,

[1:24:46] the system is deprived by definition,

[1:24:49] and then the system starts working with

[1:24:50] deprived inputs and it degrades. And in

[1:24:53] Alzheimer's, they like to mention that

[1:24:55] the feedback is damaged.

[1:24:57] >> But they threw the baby with the

[1:24:59] bathwater. Even when the feedback is

[1:25:02] damaged, it's not a monochromatic thing,

[1:25:05] black and white. You got to continue to

[1:25:07] challenge the system.

[1:25:09] When I tear

[1:25:11] a muscle, my rotator cuff, I rehab

[1:25:15] myself by going back into motion. I

[1:25:17] don't put a cast on. I treat Alzheimer's

[1:25:20] in the same way. I practice. And this is

[1:25:24] incredibly powerful. Like loading the

[1:25:27] skeleton for osteoporosis.

[1:25:30] Forget about the nutritional

[1:25:32] side of things. Lift something heavy for

[1:25:35] God's sake. pound the ground in in the

[1:25:39] right dosages and ways. It it is a lot

[1:25:42] more potent.

[1:25:45] >> We have to change our way of looking at

[1:25:48] things here. This thing here is called

[1:25:51] practice. This is a school. Life is not

[1:25:54] for living. Life is for practicing. It

[1:25:58] is a place. It's a school we came to.

[1:26:01] Maybe spiritually you can take it there

[1:26:03] as well. But I'm talking even

[1:26:05] neurologically.

[1:26:06] That's who we are. That's what we are.

[1:26:09] And viewing yourself in this way is very

[1:26:12] very potent. And it will not take your

[1:26:14] life away. You don't need more than 30

[1:26:17] minutes a day. It will enrich the

[1:26:19] current life that you have. But you have

[1:26:22] to educate yourself and you have to go

[1:26:24] deeper into these concepts in order to

[1:26:26] apply it correctly. That's my belief in

[1:26:28] in regards to this and I've seen it.

[1:26:31] >> Beautifully put. I could not agree more.

[1:26:34] uh we are in a curriculum of life and

[1:26:36] our nervous system and all the rest of

[1:26:38] us is being shaped by that and we have

[1:26:40] agency about what we bring in. Thank

[1:26:43] you. I see it on you. It's clear to me.

[1:26:46] It's very clear who's practicing and

[1:26:49] who's not. On some level when you meet

[1:26:52] people, if you're practicing yourself,

[1:26:54] if you're in this practice, if you're

[1:26:56] under this load, in this conscious

[1:27:00] interaction, choice, with suffering,

[1:27:02] with friction, with difficulties, but

[1:27:04] also with awe, with curiosity, with all

[1:27:07] those things in a directed way, not in a

[1:27:10] way that holds on to who I am. Doesn't

[1:27:13] matter who I am currently. I'm not

[1:27:16] interested in that. I am not my friend

[1:27:20] in that sense. There is a place in me

[1:27:22] that I recognize this is not my friend.

[1:27:26] But it doesn't turn into a beatdown. It

[1:27:28] doesn't turn into this. It's very

[1:27:30] important that the the multistability is

[1:27:33] held and then I can I can become I

[1:27:39] practice myself into the next day. I

[1:27:42] practice myself into the next moment.

[1:27:44] And this is the crucial moment. So when

[1:27:47] I'm doing podcasts or whatever, I use

[1:27:50] it. I manipulate the situation for my

[1:27:53] practice and for the practice of others

[1:27:55] because I believe it's so important. Our

[1:27:58] life depends on it. I could not agree

[1:28:02] more. I

[1:28:04] you know I brought back to this notion

[1:28:06] of uh language, movement and awareness.

[1:28:09] Um and maybe just for sake of of

[1:28:11] understanding and this will be an

[1:28:13] incomplete analogy but if people could

[1:28:14] imagine that um there's levels of

[1:28:17] coarseness with within each of those

[1:28:19] let's call it you know neuroscientists

[1:28:22] would call it like big spatial scale

[1:28:23] like I can flap my elbows or I can move

[1:28:26] my fingers more subtly like so subtle

[1:28:28] motion versus big motion right um in

[1:28:32] language I can I can [clears throat]

[1:28:34] grunt I can me you know I can woo you

[1:28:38] you know, or I can articulate using more

[1:28:42] sophisticated language if if I have

[1:28:45] knowledge and access to those and you

[1:28:47] build that up through experience. Yeah,

[1:28:49] you can go look things up and do that.

[1:28:51] In the realm of awareness,

[1:28:54] it's similar, right? You can grab big

[1:28:57] pieces of the room all at once. You

[1:29:00] there, the table, the cameras, producer

[1:29:02] off to my left, all of it. Or I can home

[1:29:05] in on a small space, right? But there's

[1:29:07] also, and I'm obsessed with this,

[1:29:08] there's also the time domain. How we

[1:29:11] choose to segment our experience is

[1:29:15] something that I find so incredible. Can

[1:29:18] lie back, look at the clouds, and just

[1:29:20] watch this big cloud move through my

[1:29:22] visual field over the course of minutes,

[1:29:25] an hour, or I can watch for every little

[1:29:29] subtle ripple of a leaf if I choose. And

[1:29:33] uh Dhacker Kelner who studies awe, he's

[1:29:35] at UC Berkeley, said everyday awe

[1:29:38] experiences are very accessible if we

[1:29:41] allow ourselves to move from fine scale

[1:29:43] to large scale or large scale to fine

[1:29:46] scale and back again. It's in the

[1:29:48] transition between the two in space.

[1:29:51] >> Yeah, he said he nailed it. Space and in

[1:29:54] time. I was like, you know, a lot of

[1:29:56] things happen on this podcast and useful

[1:29:59] tools come up and interesting

[1:30:00] conversations come up, but in talking

[1:30:02] with Derer and now talking to you, it's

[1:30:04] like th this is the experience of life

[1:30:08] that we're getting shaped on and we have

[1:30:10] control.

[1:30:12] And so as a last point, my audience is

[1:30:14] thinking let your guest speak. I but I

[1:30:16] just want to throw this out because when

[1:30:18] I think about going online, which is

[1:30:20] where people spend a significant amount

[1:30:22] of their conscious awareness now, their

[1:30:24] time, I ask myself, is this a

[1:30:28] lowresolution or a highresolution

[1:30:31] event?

[1:30:32] >> And someone once asked me recently, uh,

[1:30:35] do you have Tik Tok? And I said, I don't

[1:30:37] like Tik Tok. He said, why not? And I

[1:30:39] said, I don't like Tik Tok because I

[1:30:40] don't like that sound at the end.

[1:30:44] Why? It's low resolution.

[1:30:47] It feels like a highly pixelated

[1:30:50] auditory sound. Whereas like a not

[1:30:53] trying to be poetic here, but like we

[1:30:55] have these redwing blackbirds in

[1:30:57] California and in the evening when they

[1:30:58] get ready to settle down, they make this

[1:31:01] incredible sound. It's very brief, but

[1:31:03] it's rich and it's so beautiful. anyone

[1:31:06] who ever has the chance to hear it is is

[1:31:08] spectacular. Then I realize all the

[1:31:10] information on Tik Tok is low

[1:31:12] resolution.

[1:31:14] It's kind of for idiots and if you only

[1:31:18] look at that, you'll become an idiot.

[1:31:21] And I realized I'm probably consuming

[1:31:23] some other sensory input that is

[1:31:27] disproportionate

[1:31:28] to what I should be and it's going to

[1:31:31] make me an idiot. So it doesn't mean one

[1:31:33] has to spend time in the deep philosophy

[1:31:36] of of you know the most intricate

[1:31:38] philosophers. I mean I listen to punk

[1:31:40] rock music. I like it because it's raw.

[1:31:42] I like it. I like three chord Raone

[1:31:44] songs. But I also love classical music.

[1:31:48] I think it's important to step through

[1:31:50] from coarse to fine. And I feel like

[1:31:53] what you've been talking about for years

[1:31:54] in terms of movement is has something

[1:31:58] perhaps to do with this. Forgive me for

[1:32:00] going long, but no, I'm happy to see you

[1:32:02] again. And this is kind of what we do.

[1:32:04] >> Yeah, this is beautiful. I I I take a

[1:32:07] lot from it and I like this the the the

[1:32:10] transition importance. Something makes

[1:32:13] me think that we talked about the

[1:32:16] schemas, the these models,

[1:32:18] but another way to look at it is

[1:32:23] a a stomach

[1:32:25] digestive

[1:32:27] systems. Why? In the sense that they

[1:32:30] require nutrients.

[1:32:32] You got to feed them.

[1:32:35] And then

[1:32:37] the quality of those nutrients, the

[1:32:40] gross, the fine, the micronutrients, the

[1:32:43] macronutrients.

[1:32:45] Like for example, emotionally, I don't

[1:32:48] feel well. Let's say what do I tell

[1:32:50] people? What are you feeding yourself?

[1:32:52] What is your emotional food?

[1:32:56] emotional foods that are important that

[1:32:58] I bring into the practice of my students

[1:33:00] of myself. One, discomfort. We've

[1:33:03] mentioned it. It's important. It's clear

[1:33:04] why

[1:33:07] emotional contradiction.

[1:33:09] Two,

[1:33:11] I love you and I hate you. For example,

[1:33:14] when you work with boxing, when when you

[1:33:16] let people have this physical and you

[1:33:18] can point at it, look up. Watch what

[1:33:21] happened now.

[1:33:23] I love you and I hate you and I feel it.

[1:33:26] I can the multistability.

[1:33:30] Another one is the aesthetic intensity

[1:33:32] that we talked about bringing moments of

[1:33:35] awe of curiosity but also of melancholy

[1:33:39] or or many other intensities that are

[1:33:42] important.

[1:33:43] We've removed this from our lives, from

[1:33:45] our movies, from our books,

[1:33:49] definitely online,

[1:33:51] you know, as you pointed,

[1:33:54] we took it away. So, of course, we're

[1:33:56] not feeding ourselves those things.

[1:33:59] Restraint,

[1:34:01] stimulating, and requiring restraint,

[1:34:05] very important quality.

[1:34:07] All those are practices for me. Those

[1:34:11] are nutrients that I want to feed my

[1:34:13] emotional state. The same thing I have

[1:34:15] for my intellectual faculty, schema,

[1:34:19] the conceptual, the abstraction. How do

[1:34:22] I become smarter? What is thought? Is

[1:34:25] thought just this knee-jerk reactions,

[1:34:28] these levers, this associative quality?

[1:34:31] Is this thought? I refuse to accept it.

[1:34:34] >> That's not thought. So, you're you're

[1:34:36] lucky. Uh you're not lucky. you uh you

[1:34:38] are right to refuse it. Uh we could talk

[1:34:41] about thoughts and what they are. I

[1:34:42] actually have a segment in my book. I'm

[1:34:44] not trying to advertise my book that's

[1:34:45] all about how to think about thinking so

[1:34:48] that you can literally control your

[1:34:50] thinking. Use thinking as a tool, not

[1:34:54] just have it be this like wherever you

[1:34:56] go some dynamic attractor states. The

[1:34:59] neuroscientists say you just kind of

[1:35:00] fall like a clang association in a

[1:35:02] psychotic person. Yeah. is just they're

[1:35:04] they drop into a groove of of thought

[1:35:07] that is disjointed, makes no sense to

[1:35:10] the rest of us. Many people, including

[1:35:12] myself, sometimes we live in those modes

[1:35:14] of thought that are equally psychotic.

[1:35:17] We just don't express it, but they're

[1:35:19] psychotic because we're taking something

[1:35:21] as valuable as like a a beautiful

[1:35:24] vehicle and we're just kind of using it

[1:35:26] to like

[1:35:27] >> prop something up at the side of the

[1:35:29] house. My colleague Carl Dyeroth, one of

[1:35:32] the best neuroscientists alive, maybe

[1:35:35] ever, um when he told me that every

[1:35:38] night after he put his five kids to

[1:35:41] sleep, [laughter] you know, he would go

[1:35:43] and sit and force himself to think in

[1:35:48] complete sentences as a practice.

[1:35:51] >> I remember you told me before I was

[1:35:53] humbled and I thought,

[1:35:55] >> "Oh, that is the that is hard. That is a

[1:36:00] smart person.

[1:36:00] >> He's a very smart person.

[1:36:01] >> That's an intelligent person.

[1:36:02] >> He's a very intelligent person.

[1:36:04] >> That sounds like it. It comes from that

[1:36:07] place of knowing like, you know, I never

[1:36:10] I I almost never truly think. It's rare.

[1:36:15] >> He taught himself to think.

[1:36:17] >> Yeah.

[1:36:17] >> Yeah.

[1:36:18] >> Without realizing it, without realizing

[1:36:20] that you're just playing a different

[1:36:22] game in that sense that it's it's hard

[1:36:25] to develop it. And again what are the

[1:36:27] practices that we engage with you know

[1:36:29] we need those things nutrients so it's

[1:36:32] stomachs the emotional faculty is a

[1:36:35] stomach it's digestion and it asks you

[1:36:38] feed me

[1:36:39] >> and you got to take care of it there is

[1:36:40] metabolism involved there is a

[1:36:42] protection layer there is immunity to it

[1:36:45] right there is the marov boundary around

[1:36:48] it the membrane there is a model to it

[1:36:51] simulates things out but so it's also a

[1:36:54] very important way to Look at it. And of

[1:36:56] course the body movement nutrients. What

[1:37:00] is the quality of that? If you look at

[1:37:02] those gym practices, those

[1:37:04] weightlifting, they're of very very low

[1:37:07] quality in terms of movement. Every

[1:37:09] dancer will tell you that. Every athlete

[1:37:12] of a high level will tell you that.

[1:37:14] Where did we move to a ridiculous

[1:37:16] situation where our athletes are

[1:37:19] learning and are inspired by the fitness

[1:37:23] people instead of the fitness people be

[1:37:26] learning and be inspired by the the

[1:37:29] athletes the the movement people.

[1:37:30] >> Uh tell me more because I I certainly

[1:37:33] like if I love to watch track and field

[1:37:35] during the Olympics um and it's amazing

[1:37:38] to see these athletes move and their

[1:37:40] different shapes and their different

[1:37:42] personalities like the sprinters. This

[1:37:44] is I still marvel at these races boil

[1:37:47] down to sometimes hundredths of a second

[1:37:50] and they'll wear flashy jewelry

[1:37:54] [laughter]

[1:37:54] without question slows them down. This

[1:37:57] is the least aerodynamic thing you could

[1:37:58] possibly do.

[1:37:59] >> There are more important things than

[1:38:01] that

[1:38:01] >> and they're willing to do give up the

[1:38:03] potential time advantage to show their

[1:38:07] bravado. Now the distance runners where

[1:38:10] typically it doesn't get down to

[1:38:12] hundredths of a second. It can typically

[1:38:16] the margins between first, second, and

[1:38:18] third place are wider.

[1:38:22] They're not wearing any jewelry. There's

[1:38:25] no And their personalities are much more

[1:38:27] subdued. Fascinating.

[1:38:30] >> You're telling me that the athletes are

[1:38:32] paying attention to the fitness people?

[1:38:34] >> Yeah, of course.

[1:38:35] >> That seems crazy. Why? That's Do you

[1:38:37] don't you see it? Boxers training like

[1:38:39] fitness people. They're fitness

[1:38:42] athletes. They're not boxers these days.

[1:38:44] Why social media? Why? What is there

[1:38:48] approachable calls the attention?

[1:38:52] I don't know why you brought me in

[1:38:54] today,

[1:38:56] but it might be one of the less times if

[1:38:58] not the last time as it becomes less and

[1:39:01] less

[1:39:04] what the attention calls for.

[1:39:06] >> I don't know. I think I believe that the

[1:39:10] the system that is human curiosity

[1:39:14] which drives a lot of social media, not

[1:39:17] all of it. I do think that when you have

[1:39:20] a lot of low resolution stuff, the

[1:39:23] signal to noise becomes people

[1:39:28] our senses I almost said this earlier

[1:39:30] but our sensory apparatus whether or not

[1:39:32] it's our skin or our smell or our vision

[1:39:33] or our hearing as you know has levels of

[1:39:36] granularity. The receptive fields as we

[1:39:38] call them go from very fine to uh to

[1:39:42] very coarse. We love the feeling of a

[1:39:43] hug with somebody we love. We also love

[1:39:45] the feeling of a light caress,

[1:39:48] you know, or just a hand on ours. These

[1:39:50] things matter and they're part of our

[1:39:52] experience. And even without being aware

[1:39:54] of that desire for it, we have it's it's

[1:39:56] it's a drive. I think I do think people