The Trolley Problem in Real Life

[00:12] You know, if I had been driving, your eyes close for about one second, 70 miles per hour times 5,280 divided by 60 divided by 60,

[00:28] you will travel about 103 feet with your eyes closed. This is a self-driving car. to keep me and other people safe.

[00:43] Impressive. But let me ask you a question. between hitting two people right in front of it and hit one person on a sidewalk?

[00:58] [tires screech, car crashes] asking people what they think they would do, in that actual traumatic experience.

[01:14] Would it even be ethical to put people in that sort of position? [theme music playing]

[01:37] In 1967, British philosopher Philippa Foot created a precursor to our self-driving car conundrum. is known as "the trolley problem."

[01:49] Directly ahead of the train, Now, imagine that you are too far away there's a lever that can divert the train onto another track.

[02:07] But here's the catch. Now you're faced with a dilemma. or you can pull the lever and save their lives,

[02:24] but be directly responsible for one person's death. When surveyed, most people say that they'd pull the lever It's for the greater good.

[02:38] how we'd actually act if the scenario really happened with real emotions and real lives at stake. compared to who we want to be, but a comparison

[02:55] could only be made by doing what has never been done before: making the trolley problem real.

[03:13] in a realistic railroad switching station The trains and the people on the tracks but the subjects would think it was all real.

[03:29] that switches the tracks, They'd be totally convinced that they have to choose But wait, there's a greater-good dilemma

[03:45] By forcing people to truly believe serious psychological damage to them? Yes, it might be beneficial to all of us to see what happens,

[04:00] but would those benefits be worth potential trauma to a few? I needed to make sure it would be ethical.

[04:12] Professor Aaron Blaisdell. and what previous studies have found? Sure, it's one life versus five. The math works out.

[04:27] of a switch, watching a train barreling towards people, I bet a lot of them would freeze in that moment.

[04:39] I think that shuts down a lot of action. What potential harms could come to someone in that position? but there is a small potential for harm

[04:52] in the sense of somebody being guilt-ridden "I'm the person who would push that button Or they might think, "I'm the person who would freeze

[05:08] and that could be traumatic. on human subjects for real? Would you want to see the trolley problem

[05:22] You know, I would. -If I were tell you we're going to run this... -Okay. with that responsibility on your shoulders?

[05:36] For me to be involved in that, it would have to be on the shoulders of many people, [Michael] Dr. Blaisdell's reliance

[05:49] Most universities have ethics review boards When is it okay to risk psychological harm [Narrator] It is May 1962.

[06:04] [Michael] Ethics review boards were developed as a result in the middle of the last century. whenever they get punished for making a mistake.

[06:19] [man grunts] tested how far subjects would go they were physically hurting someone.

[06:32] [man screams] of the shock victim were fake, but the trauma [man] You have no right to hold me here! Let me out!

[06:47] Many questioned Milgram's methodology, but unlike a research school, Mind Field doesn't answer That said, I wanted to get the thoughts

[07:00] so I tracked one down and proposed my idea Do you think I could reach a point where you would I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, Michael.

[07:16] I'm not ready to say no quite yet. and I actually think the ways to make it pass who might have posttraumatic stress disorder,

[07:30] that could make them more vulnerable to a type of event like this with the addition of something I actually think that under those circumstances,

[07:42] a compelling case as to the social good of this study? It's not just basic theoretical research. This has direct implications for mass transit,

[07:56] It's a risk-benefit, Right, and so my hope is that the good this experiment does is in revealing the difference between instinct

[08:12] and philosophical reflection, in learning the difference so that we can train people -[David] Yeah. -[Natasha] That's interesting.

[08:26] I came into this meeting expecting a lot of resistance, like, excited to take their concerns,

[08:39] which I thought was the purpose here, more fascinating, and penetrate deeper and have more applications in society.

[08:57] to turn one of the most notorious hypothetical ethical dilemmas into a reality. [train horn blowing]

[09:10] and hired a freight train. So the "Mind Field" production team Then we dressed six actors like railroad workers.

[09:26] we took steps to make sure they were safe. We will not have the train moving [Michael] We filmed our actors on the tracks,

[09:39] a train coming toward them. Then in editing, we employed visual effects We then combined the shots together.

[09:51] for our subjects, who would believe and transmitted from remote cameras. who would be willing to guide me through the process

[10:06] in order to minimize psychological harm. The worst would probably be posttraumatic stress disorder, They'll keep thinking about it over and over,

[10:21] and so to limit risk, you'd want to screen out people and then afterwards, do the debrief. How are they feeling at this moment?

[10:33] You can start to ease them into the reality Would you be willing to help us conduct this experiment? yes, I mean, I think I would.

[10:47] and valuable experiment, because people can have very uncomfortable lessons that they then start to learn from. to do such a thing, I would be honored.

[11:08] for high-speed railway. [Michael] To disguise the true nature of our experiment, for a fake focus group to offer feedback

[11:23] Today I'm just going to ask you to fill out a couple forms in our group and for TSA security purposes.

[11:36] look to uncover signs of depression, anxiety, unsuitable to participate in this experiment. Thank you.

[11:50] we reviewed the potential subjects' responses. This particular person, I was concerned about this. Some high suicidal thinking, high acting out.

[12:02] where you want to try to prevent and there's a large group of them, So I would be more comfortable with these people,

[12:18] in difficult situations might make them [Michael] Finally, after consulting two psychologists it was time to put our plan into action.

[12:46] the trolley problem in real life, Our subjects will sign in at this booth It's going to be a hot day for them.

[13:00] for the actual test to begin, the chance to sit inside Inside, they'll meet a kindly train-switch operator, of the California Railroad Authority.

[13:15] Real fake. to convince our subjects that everything here is real, including these monitors showing supposedly live shots

[13:30] all around the California area. [horn blows] they'll learn how the operator switches the tracks

[13:42] from one track to another. on these screens from a different hidden control room. will leave the subject alone in the switching station.

[13:57] And at that point, a crisis will occur. A train will be barreling down the tracks, five on one, one worker on his phone on the other.

[14:15] who has any kind of control or authority. They'll feel like what they do has real-world consequences. or will one?

[14:30] [horn blows] so it's time for me to get ready.

[14:42] -Good. -My hypothesis when they hear that first warning, The other option would be, of course, the freeze action,

[14:56] In that case, we want to know their thought process. All right, well, here we go.

[15:08] [Michael] Our first subject is Elsa. Hi, I'm Elsa, nice to meet you. [Michael] Everyone she meets is an actor,

[15:21] so she has no idea that she's being watched. Thank you. they're about to see is proprietary.

[15:34] so they couldn't call for help during the imminent crisis. What we're doing here is, the California Railroad Authority, And so we want the public to come in and give us

[15:50] some feedback on how comfortable they are, the decor, you know. -[cell phone chirps] -Um, oh, shoot. -That's okay. -So it's just gonna be, like, another 15, maybe 20 minutes.

[16:04] Um... you know what? I've got an idea. she has to wait for 20 minutes. for her to wait inside the switching station.

[16:19] This is a remote train-switching station, and it's nice and cool and air-conditioned in there, it would be totally great for you to come in...

[16:32] -Okay, cool. -...and see what they do in there. -How are you, Elsa? -I'm good, how are you? So what brings you out this way?

[16:48] Focus group. Okay. So what we got here is a remote switching station. What's happening is there's a lot of construction going on.

[17:05] new ribbon rail right here on these. who actually spent 20 years working on railroads. [Greg] He offers something called face validity

[17:20] "Ah, this guy's real." right here on these two tracks right now. Now, the other thing about this--

[17:33] This is probably a work unit that's coming. -Uh-huh. -We're gonna divert it to track two. Ah, very good.

[17:47] Just go ahead and throw it yourself. Yeah, go ahead. Good. All right, it's gonna make the transition to track number two.

[18:02] Well, I tell you what. You're now a switchman. Okay, well, now that the trailing car go ahead and switch it back to track one.

[18:15] I was like, oh, my gosh, I have to turn it. The good thing is we've got it back on line one, will go through on track one.

[18:29] switch one to the left, switch two to the right. It was time to force her to make a very difficult decision. -Oh, I gotta take this. -Oh, yeah, sure, no problem.

[18:45] Someone has to be here at all times. -Okay, no problem. Okay. -Be back in a sec.

[18:58] a little worried, like, "What?" to acclimate to her surroundings, and then, we started the playback of our staged footage.

[19:13] [female voice] Attention, object on track. Attention, object on track. Attention, object on track.

[19:30] [Greg] She's looking in her purse to find... Attention, object on track.

[19:42] [Michael] I think the warning does a lot. Attention, object on track.

[19:55] [train horn blows] Here's the "train approaching" warning. [Greg] I don't think at this-- oh, there she goes.

[20:08] There's a train approaching. I wanted to let him know that there's a train approaching. [Michael] But the switch operator won't be coming back.

[20:23] [female voice] Attention, train approaching. -Attention, train approaching. -[Greg] I can't believe this.

[20:36] Attention, object on track. Attention, object on track. Attention, object on track.

[20:53] End of test. Everyone is safe. the participants to think that anyone actually got hurt. before the train would have actually hit anyone.

[21:09] -This was all an experiment. -Okay. Yeah, sure. Did I do something wrong? [chuckles] Um... just scared.

[21:24] -Yes. -So no one was in any danger. on how people behave when decisions need to be made. I felt the pressure. I'm like, "Oh, my gosh,

[21:40] I had to make a very quick and sound decision, like, Their lives were in my hands. [Michael] What was motivating your decision to switch?

[21:55] I didn't know if I was making the right decision. I mean, a life is a life, right? at least one person was capable of taking

[22:10] deliberate action to sacrifice one in order to save five. But we wanted to see if Elsa's reaction was typical. Would you be interested in high-speed transportation?

[22:23] Shoot, sorry. I just got a text. I'm so sorry. Oh, it's so much nicer in here than it is out there. -What? -Do you know when the next train's coming?

[22:38] [female voice] Attention, train approaching. in how to switch the tracks. Go ahead. How does that feel?

[22:53] -[cell phone rings] -One second. Let me check this. Hang on one sec. Ah. -Hello? -[laughing]

[23:06] He's actually tapping into the power of being in that position. [Michael] Here comes the test. Attention, train approaching.

[23:21] -Attention, train approaching. -Just watch his eyebrows. Eyes are going back and forth. Train approaching.

[23:34] Train approaching. Paralysis in the face of danger is such a common reaction.

[23:46] Attention, train approaching. [Michael] Even with the train seconds away, I'll go try and find him. Okay.

[24:01] This is self-soothing there, yeah. -She's not moving. -Oh, my gosh, wow. Train approaching. Attention, object on track.

[24:19] End of test. Everyone is safe. [Michael] Not one of these participants pulled the lever. Oh, my gosh! How you guys doing?

[24:33] Everything that just happened was an experiment. This was an experiment. What were you feeling when you were watching that?

[24:46] the train coming, like, "Oh, my God!" Tell me what was going through your mind when you heard I thought about switching it,

[24:59] I kind of suspended my responsibility. "Oh, I better not touch it you know, because I don't know out of those five guys, someone would've looked back.

[25:16] of the train was already planning to stop. [Michael] "The train probably had sensors." "I didn't want to touch the equipment."

[25:29] when an individual assumes that others -Both tracks had people on them. -Right! Do I switch it, do I not switch it?

[25:44] It was quite-- quite the test, I would say. had switched the tracks, and five others had not.

[25:57] -Here, have a seat. -Much obliged, thank you. with the entire nation if we wanted it to.

[26:10] track two through there. -Yeah, -But they're all live feeds. -[cell phone rings] -Yeah. Let me see what this is.

[26:26] -Okay, I'll be right back. -Okay, got it. [Greg] He's remaining engaged.

[26:39] Oh, no. Uh, yeah. I think he's gonna go out.

[26:53] Um, there's a train coming? Um... Uh, yeah.

[27:06] Attention, train approaching. Okay, so this needs to go to...

[27:18] [Greg] Okay, he's rehearsing what to do. -Attention, train approaching. -Oh. Track two. I know. They should see this.

[27:33] Object on track. Attention, train approaching. -Attention, object on track. -[train horn blows] -End of test. -Okay, good.

[27:48] Everyone is safe. There was just a-- almost an accident seemingly.

[28:03] -No one was in danger. -For sure. This is a psychology experiment looking at how people behave... So tell me how you were feeling.

[28:18] -Mainly a bunch of terror. -[Greg] Terror. And responsibility, because I was at the helm. And just horrified about making a decision

[28:30] between, like, five people compared to one. It was very scary, to say the least. as the train's coming down the track?

[28:43] It was mainly to warn them. What's coming up? What's coming up right now? Right.

[28:56] Either like six families or one family? It was, like... up to me, it felt like. Yeah.

[29:08] It was interesting to me that you had such presence of mind. The one that everyone, if you ask them in a survey, Yes, so that was impressive, Cory, it really was.

[29:25] You know, I think it would be good to have you meet -some of the people who participated so you can see. -Awesome. -and meet the actors. -Awesome.

[29:41] the debrief was in this situation. reinforced that this was not a reality.

[29:54] -Mm-hmm. -I went into this thinking However, what we've really seen -Right. -Everyone had some explanation for their behavior.

[30:11] Yes, each one person told themselves a story and their analysis of the surroundings but it's also based on their own background and experience.

[30:24] realizing something was wrong and they weren't prepared. He evaluated everything, but at some point just said, Other people were ready to say, "You know what?

[30:40] I'm sure it's being taken care of by others." -someone like Elsa said... -[switch clicks] They still had some of those same thoughts,

[30:53] that if they did not do something, Neither of them really wanted to do something. 'cause they had to save lives.

[31:07] I think it was definitely worth it. learned something about human behavior. Elsa learned what inner strength she had,

[31:20] Every single one of our participants felt like And they feel the value of what just happened. Wow.

[31:38] and all of them are doing well. by prescreening vulnerable individuals, debriefing the participants, and providing on-site counseling

[31:50] that we could explore this facet of human psychology ethically. between what people think they would do with a difficult moral dilemma.

[32:05] most of our participants did nothing, Should people feel bad for being unable to act?

[32:17] Freezing in the face of a threat is a behavior but we are the only animals that can study how we act,

[32:30] and program machines to do only that. we have to affect the mind,

[32:42] Understanding who we are by taking ourselves that risk must always be balanced And as always, thanks for watching.

[33:02] You're going to be a lab rat in a maze. It's quite pioneering work, really.

[33:14] - Ready? - Ready. an ancients psychedelic drug-- ayahuasca. Don't worry, this is a self-driving car.

[33:30] Okay, and then to the left. I didn't realize that you were a real person. I am going to be taking a lie-detection test.

[33:45] You know, Chinese water torture isn't even Chinese. This is a big first for us. Welcome to Mind Field.

[34:00] [theme music playing]