How Outlaw Biker Gangs (The Mongols) Actually Work | How Crime Works | Insider

[00:02] years undercover with ATF, including more than 2 years riding with the Outlaw Motorcycle Gang called the Mongols. And this is how crime works.

[00:15] shooting people. They were stabbing people. I knew that my number was coming After 2 years, I felt it. I was going to be involved in a murder. They were going to murder me.

[00:27] They see you as a brother, but when it's over with, you'll never be anything but over with, you'll never be anything but a rat.

[00:40] teamed up with the IRS and ATF to go after the Hells Angels, and ATF to go after the Hells Angels, Ventura chapter. And they asked me to go undercover with them. And so I did. I I was only there a couple of months before

[00:57] John Saccone, the case agent, but the Mongols came to me and said, "We need you to ride with the Mongols. Mongols are a lot more violent. They're

[01:09] creating a lot more havoc in Southern California, especially LA. I knew when I volunteered to do it, this could be the the most dangerous thing that you've ever done undercover, and I'd been doing undercover work for years.

[01:24] The process of actually trying to get into one of those gangs, they're always making sure that they're not infiltrated by a cop. The first step is becoming a hang-around. You've got to

[01:38] get their attention. You've got to be what they're looking for. When they approach you this with us? Why don't you go down to this other club with us?"

[01:51] Then you become a hang-around. When I first went in, I looked as rough as I had ever been. as I had ever been. My mental status at that time was

[02:04] confrontation. And I didn't walk into a confrontation. And I didn't walk into a lot even most undercover operations with a confrontation in my head, but I did

[02:17] that night. I'm going into a redneck bar that's got a bunch of violent people in it and Mongols in there. Entertainment in these places is watching the fights. I had a

[02:32] confidential informant with me, which was Confidential informants can piss backwards on you and sometimes you can't control them and in a situation like that just made it even more dangerous.

[02:46] She did introduce me to the Mongols who looked at me and looked at me and like okay, who the hell is this? Get out of my face. And as far as I was concerned, that was

[02:58] all that I needed or wanted. The Mongols got to see you for The Mongols got to see you for a number of weeks or even months before they'll even talk to you. What did it for me? I get into it again

[03:13] now with a dude that wants to fight. I've made numerous friends inside the place, but this guy wants to fight. He doesn't want wants to go fisticuffs and stuff.

[03:27] I don't hurt him, but I took him down. But, that made an impression with the Mongols. The Mongols say, "Hey, Billy, Southern Club?" And when that happened,

[03:43] And when that happened, I became an official hang around. legitimate job. I'm in the avionics business. I get a lot of credibility.

[03:58] I'm older than they are. I got a legitimate job. There were two assistant US attorneys that were assigned to the case. And I looked to them for guidance. beating people? They're going to expect me to jump in and beat people with them.

[04:14] me a kilo of dope and I'm supposed to move that kilo of deep dope for them? At both assistant United States attorneys sitting on the other side of the desk, they were doing this. Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah, nah,

[04:28] nah, nah, nah. I was going to do what I had to do to get in. I made my own line in the sand. anybody for that club and I wasn't going to participate rape. But I was going to

[04:41] to participate rape. But I was going to be just like them. Their cut. The rags, whatever they want to call it.

[04:55] The Mongols and the Hells Angels um you have a bottom rocker given when you become a prospect. Then you have that center patch. Not until you get that top rocker

[05:10] with the Mongols do you become a full patched Mongol. And same thing with the Hells Angels. These are my colors. You get that center patch, you got to earn it.

[05:24] And they they vote on it. A month turned into two months, turned into three months till one day they did ask me. They threw them colors at me with that lower rocker. We want you in.

[05:38] an enrollment application which was three pages long that I couldn't cover. private investigator and they're going to find out who you are. That was Billy St. John for a long time. Had an undercover

[05:54] Had an undercover social security for a long time. I'd name. I had a hell of an undercover background, but the things they they wanted to know, I didn't have. Criminals had gotten

[06:07] smarter and smarter over the years when it came to that stuff. You graduated from this high school? Bring your high school annual in. We want to see it. We actually had to put an ATF agent in the school system

[06:23] to cover it. When the investigator contacted the him. And so yeah, okay. I'm looking at his blah blah blah. You were in the military? Bring us your

[06:38] DD form 214 in. We want to see it. Bring Bring your social security number credit. You got relatives here? You got relatives there? Saying bring their telephone numbers in. We want to talk to them.

[06:58] roll over the hill. We're going to go to ordinarily. So leave your patch home cuz they don't allow patches in. We rolled over into Los Angeles, areas

[07:12] that we don't ordinarily go, and we partied. Somebody confronted or said something to Domingo, that's the president of the San Fernando Valley Domingo squared off on the dude. Make a long story short, he hit him. I did what

[07:28] I was supposed to do, and bam! I hit the dude toe-to-toe. Guys The guy's on the floor now on his hands and knees, and I'm trying to make a good show of it. So I got him by the collar and whaling on the back of his head,

[07:44] trying to make it look good, but I didn't see it coming. There were two Mongols in the bar. Had their colors on. I could only see a foot coming. He hit the dude in the face with a boot.

[07:59] Bam! And I'm like, "Oh god, if I don't get him out of here, they kill him. Everybody in the bar saw me hit him first, knock him to the ground. Hell, too." So, I dragged the dude out the back

[08:12] This Mongol laid one more kick to his head. Well, the guy got up. And before they could hit him again, he took off running. When I came back in, I'm I'm all out of breath. I put my

[08:26] Domingo comes up to me, puts his arm around me. "Good job, prospect. Good job." There was a big old barroom brawler there. Now, I don't have a patch on. Domingo doesn't have a patch on. This guy doesn't know who we are. He

[08:41] This guy doesn't know who we are. He knocks Domingo up against a wall. And I thought to myself, "Blank me, round two." So, I grabbed the dude. I was able to hit him one time.

[08:54] Well, he I saw his hand go behind him. And when he came back out, he had a Bowie knife. But, he got one swipe at me, cut the front of my jacket open. He ran out the door after me. And I'm going around in a circle out the

[09:08] door, and I'm screaming and I'm screaming for Rocky. He's a gun. As far as I'm concerned, this case is over with. "Shoot him, Rocky. Shoot him." Everybody's out of the bar now.

[09:23] "Give him the knife. Give him the knife." And Domingo gets the knife. And I'm so mad because this guy just tried to kill me with this damn knife. I'm ready to just for lack of better terms, him up

[09:35] with all the damn other Mongols, cuz he just tried to kill me. But Domingo stops me. Oh, hold on, brother. Hold on, brother. Hold on. He When he gives me the knife, he said,

[09:47] the place, to our place Thursday night. When he comes up there, you're going to stab him." They're going to want me to kill this dude Thursday, which is day This case is over. I ain't killing anybody for this club.

[10:02] He left town, never saw him again. So, I got myself a new Bowie knife, and I don't have to kill the dude. I got my center patch. Here you go, do a good job, prospect. Good job.

[10:15] So, now I'm I'm prospecting with a lower rocker in my center. And everybody in the club knows Billy Queen took that knife for the president of the San Fernando Valley chapter, but it doesn't get me my top rocker. It's months and

[10:29] months later. The top patch, you get that when you become a full fledged member of the gang.

[10:45] Hey, Billy, come on up to the to the place, man. Uh there's some national guys that are going to be there. So, I went up there night. When I got there, they run a little scenario by me. Uh they snatched

[10:59] my colors, and now they're going to beat me down because I allowed another Mongol to snatch my colors. And they got me out back. I'm in a big circle with all these

[11:11] And Domingo is reading me the riot act. He says, center patch and stuff, then you put

[11:24] this on." And he pulls out a top rocker, says Mongols on it. Throws it to me. At that point, I knew I had made full patched Mongol. Cheers go

[11:37] had made full patched Mongol. Cheers go up. I'm cheering. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz I don't know whether I'm happy because I'm a real Mongol or because I'm a undercover agent that beat them. I'm just happy as I can be. I just made

[11:52] I'm just happy as I can be. I just made full patched Mongol. the 1%ers. And they identify themselves as 1%er.

[12:06] They are the Hells Angels. They are the Mongols. They they are the Pagans. They are the Outlaws. These people are very violent people And that's why they call themselves Outlaws.

[12:22] They want everybody to know that if you cross them, going to kill you. You might put one, two, three, four, or you might put a But that's only going to leave several hundred that are going to make sure that

[12:35] you're not there to testify. In the state of California, the Hells Angels, they control the state. At that time, they had nothing to do with anybody other than white people. Well, back in the '70s,

[12:48] you had a bunch of Vietnam veterans coming home didn't fit in necessarily with the Hells Angels. The Mongols started their own uh organization.

[13:03] And basically, it was a Latino organization back in the >> [sighs and gasps] >> the Mongols put on their patch, which a lower rocker that said California on it. Mongols put that California rocker

[13:18] "You're going to take it off or we'll kill you. We'll annihilate you." So, the Mongols said, "Bring it on." Basically, for 17 years they killed each

[13:30] other. But, the Mongols got to be bigger, a lot bigger, especially in Southern California. One day, the Mongols took it to the Hells Angels and said, "We'll let you exist.

[13:43] You can exist in Northern California. We have Southern California." The Hells Angels had to do what the Mongols let them do. Extortion was a was a big deal. In California, it would take you months and months and months to get a deadbeat

[13:58] person out of your rental property, slumlords. Well, they wouldn't do that. They go to the Mongols and say, they would pay Mongol, like our our chapter, pay us $50 a piece to go over to a

[14:12] pay us $50 a piece to go over to a house. We would roll in. Domingo would boom, boom. Domingo would point a finger in the face and say, "You got till this afternoon to get your ass out of this house." What do you think they did?

[14:26] They were gone. And we get paid $50 a piece. And I went with them to threaten witnesses. I went with them to make sure that witnesses weren't going

[14:39] to show up and testify against them. Rocky and Domingo, they beat the out of a guy up at the place one night.

[14:51] They thought they killed him. The ambulance shows up, the cops show up. ambulance shows up, the cops show up. This one guy, he steps up and he says, "Domingo and Rocky, they're the ones that beat this dude to death."

[15:04] Uh Rocky leaves town. Domingo decides he's going to hide until one day he decides he's going to end it all. department, walk in with guns, he's going to kill as many cops as he can

[15:19] kill. And he'll go out a hero, is what he said. But then they found out the guy didn't die. He's still alive. So we called the die. He's still alive. So we called the witness down at the Sundowner, a club.

[15:32] And I'm there with three or four Mongols. They're going to And I'm doing everything that I can do to to keep her from participating in this murdering. He got a girlfriend in the bathroom. The

[15:45] girls, Mongols, they got their old ladies there. They're holding the girl in the bathroom, kidnapping. So Domingo reads him the riot act. You're going to walk out that door with your old lady. You're going to leave

[15:59] town. If you show back up, we're going to kill you. He goes out the door with his old lady, gets on his motorcycle, never see him Nobody's going to testify against them. Twice I was involved in an armed

[16:15] robbery. And I was praying to God that they were Uh so they weren't going to shoot this guy victims in front of me. If they were going to green-light somebody,

[16:31] somebody would be assigned to do it. And they didn't write anything down, which is a smart way. I got the assignment to stab somebody to death. Uh but it was all face-to-face. Rocky had pawned his motorcycle over there.

[16:46] Couldn't get the money to get his bike back. So his plan to get his bike back was we would just kill the guy. then he could just go over and freely get his bike back.

[17:01] And he called me up one night. He's telling me how we're going to go over and kill Reuben was the guy's name. I was going to drive the getaway car on it. And so I'm like, "Are Are you nuts? Where I'm

[17:14] going to go to jail for murder cuz you want to get your bike back? Rocky's old lady had stolen a grand piano. And I told Rocky, "Well, I know somebody that will buy that grand piano for

[17:27] $2,000. We won't have to kill Ruben." I can hear the phone go quiet. Then I heard Rocky come back say, "See if you can get $2,500 for it." I can't get in can get $2,500 for it." I can't get in touch with ATF to get the $2,000. So,

[17:41] I'm pulling all the money I can pull out of my account. Other ATF agents are pulling it out of money out of the ATM accounts till we get $2,000. Undercover, we rent a truck, go over and buy this baby grand piano to keep Rocky from

[17:54] baby grand piano to keep Rocky from killing Ruben. criminal businesses. Everything from, you know, the standard selling dope and

[18:08] guns to some of them would have a legitimate job like working at Sears. And if they worked at Sears, I could go into Sears, buy $25 worth of tools and

[18:20] stuff, and walk out with $250 worth of tools. Or I I could take my receipt and walk out with $2,000 worth of tools. So, everybody had a scheme. I'm hauling dope.

[18:34] is now. Here Billy, this this guy's wanting this dope, you know, and stuff, you know, you go over there and deliver this dope and collect the money. You go give it to my wife.

[18:46] Like that. Mongols have chapters all over the United States, and they all have presidents and vice presidents and secretary treasurers and their enforcers. They have a structure quite like other organized crime groups. The

[18:59] of Sorry to say, stupid people in it. And the national uh officers were getting pissed. They were about to come down on San Fernando

[19:14] about to come down on San Fernando Valley when Domingo made the decision, secretary treasurer of the club cuz he's pretty smart. >> I could read and write. And I did what I had to do. Domingo

[19:31] says, "Hey Billy, it's approved. You're an officer. You're the secretary treasurer. He's got the books. I mean the books. Everything to to to get the Mongols

[19:47] RICO'd. And he hands them to me. I'm an ATF agent. And he's handing me the books to to kill them. If we get in the gun business, start selling guns, it's got to go in the ledger.

[20:01] Steal motorcycles, sell motorcycles and stuff, got to go in the books. It would seem just absolutely incredibly stupid for them to have books like that. Just lays them out. Everything's in code. So, it's not like um

[20:18] we stole guns or we sold guns or we took these guns in. Guns aren't guns in the book in the book. Guns are beepers. If law enforcement gets the books, which they got, they got to be able to have somebody that can decipher the books for

[20:34] them. Secretary treasurer does that, you know. I had to go to headquarters, the mother chapter, once a month and sit them with the books. This is what we did. This is

[20:50] the money. Here's your money, your part of it. And so, I got to see what everybody else was doing around the United States. Hey, if I there was understand, then I went back to Rocky or Domingo. Hey, what is this, you know?

[21:03] And they just would explain it to me. They would be explaining it to me all on They would be explaining it to me all on tape.

[21:15] mirror and I'd see John Zaconie right on my ass. Now, that made me nervous as hell and I have to have a word with him. What the hell you trying to do? Get me killed? And and so

[21:28] unfortunately, there'd be places where I was all alone. was all alone. That was my life for the next 2 years. I never wore a wire, but I did wear recording equipment. A wire is different

[21:42] than a recorder. A recorder is just on you, but a wire it's transmitting My car was um >> [snorts] >> hardwired. My apartment was hardwired

[21:55] with audio and visual. There were numerous times where I was in situations alive, it wasn't because the cops were going to come in and save me. It's because the Mongols were going to save me.

[22:10] >> And I loved them. About a year and a half in, my mother North Carolina and I buried my mama. And it was very, very emotional for me.

[22:22] ATF wanted me back on that motorcycle. They wanted me back in. They didn't say a word to me about my I didn't get a card. Nothing. Just get back on that bike,

[22:36] buddy, and get in. And I rode that bike over to a guy's house named Evil. When I went up to the door and knocked on the door, I fully expected to do a Mongol handshake with him.

[22:50] But that didn't happen. Evil reached out and he grabbed me. And he hugged me. And he said, "Billy, I love you, And he said, "Billy, I love you, brother, and I'm sorry about your mama.

[23:03] Something inside of me, it hit me like a ton of bricks. I was kind of stunned. I sat down on the couch when I heard that next bike roll up. I got up. It was a young guy by the name of JR. I got up to do the Mongol

[23:18] He grabbed me. He hugged me. And he held me. And he said, "Billy, I love you, I'm sorry about your mama, brother." And he held me.

[23:37] that I can't explain. The next guy that rolled in, it played out again. And rolled in, it played out again. And again, and again. And I thought, "Jesus Christ, what are you doing, Billy? You can't testify against these people. They

[23:51] love you." I didn't know what I was going to do. We this huge [snorts] run. There were hundreds of of of Mongols there. We [snorts] had a whole motel.

[24:05] And they hugged me. "And we love you, Billy. We love you." I wanted to get on that bike. I wanted to be Billy Saint John. I didn't want to be Billy Queen. I wanted to ride off with those Mongols.

[24:19] And the only way that I could handle it that night was to drink. And I drank and was going to pass out right there. It must have been 2:00 3:00 in the morning. Some Mongols came in and they were shaking me. "Billy, get up. Get up,

[24:33] Billy. Get up." Yeah, what the hell's going on? What the hell? There were SWAT teams. They had the motel surrounded. Now they were calling every Mongol out at gunpoint, to include

[24:48] me. And I'm there on my knees with all these other Mongols and my hands on my head. And at that point, it was like getting hit in the face with a red wet squirrel.

[25:02] guys. I wasn't going to rape. I wasn't going to kill for this club. And I realized who I was again.

[25:14] One day I loved them. Next day I hated them. was still seeing my kids. But after a year and a half,

[25:29] I had none of that. Girlfriend was gone. Children were gone. Friends were gone. Had nobody. I saw John Siconolfi, the case agent. And on occasion,

[25:44] I would see a technical guy because of the camera systems, because of the recording systems. But beside that, Mongol friends. Life wasn't normal in any way.

[25:58] When I reached two years, the Mongols had assigned me to kill people. Assigned our chapter to kill people.

[26:10] to John Siconolfi, case agent, said I can't do it anymore. I had lost my life. My personal life was gone. And I wanted it back. I wanted to be a father again. I wanted to be a regular agent again.

[26:26] But this was also what I was hearing. Hey, there's there's somebody in the Hey, there's a cop in the club. But they were having discussions in front of me. We got to kill him.

[26:40] I just hear them talking about having to kill a cop that's in the club. kill a cop that's in the club. That, along with losing my life, and knowing that it's about to catch up with me.

[26:56] that I'm going to get up or something bad's going to happen. They loved Billy St. John, but they would have put a bullet through But we needed enough information for the search

[27:08] warrants, for the for the indictments. It took an additional 2 months to get the information they they needed. Every day I rolled in, I looked at a damn nut to to see the way that they

[27:23] were looking at me to make sure they weren't going to kill It was miserable for the next 2 months until we were ready to take them all until we were ready to take them all down.

[27:40] it was like standing in a fishbowl. It was like being in the Twilight Zone. I was with them the one day, running, gangbanging. The next day, I'm Billy Queen again. And then I started getting phone calls.

[27:55] By now, I got a I got a cell phone. And Mongols start calling me. Billy, get ready your The cops are coming. They're hitting everybody. Billy, are you okay? Yeah,

[28:09] They're hitting everybody, Billy. Get rid of all your Same phone calls over and over. We arrested 54. arrested 54. We convicted 53 of the 54 that we

[28:22] arrested. They had a witness. They had it all on tape. There wasn't much that they could do. I had answered enough calls. It went from Billy where Billy, you hear what they what's going on? How do you Billy?

[28:36] To the calls that went like this. Hey Billy, where are you, brother? Wasn't long after that. You mother We will kill you. Till I didn't want to hear that anymore. Click.

[28:59] and they laid a wallet down in front of me and said, "Here's your new life, Billy. You're going to Plano, Texas, but your family's going to Miami, Florida." What?

[29:13] children? What about my life? Billy, we just want to keep you alive. We want to keep your family alive. to send you to Florida to see your children.

[29:28] We're going to take your children. We're going to fly them to Plano, Texas, where they can see you. For the next 2 years, I got to my see my children one time. I was never going to be a father again.

[29:41] I moved into a a witness protection program. I had a great big box of of tapes that I had made undercover. When this case comes up, pull them tapes out, transcribe tapes and stuff, get on

[29:55] an airplane, fly back to LA, testify against these people. tapes. Get on an airplane, fly back to Los Angeles, or fly somewhere else, testify in state court, testify in federal

[30:09] court. SWAT teams pick me up, escort me to a to a courthouse. Slip me in the back doors. I come up, sit down, testify against Mongols.

[30:21] Put me on an airplane, fly me back to to Plano, Texas. to Plano, Texas. That was my life for the next 2 years. The greatest majority of them played out Operation Black Rain. It was extremely

[30:37] Operation Black Rain. It was extremely successful. was born in the hills of North Carolina in Rutherford County. At 5 years old I

[30:51] moved to Greensboro. That's when my dad joined ATF. My goal was to be an ATF agent like my dad. I was a soldier

[31:03] brother. Me and my twin brother decided Vietnam was hot and heavy at that time. We weren't going to wait for the country And we joined and we both volunteered to go to Vietnam. They sent my brother

[31:18] first. And I was with the 82nd Airborne when they sent my brother. He was there about 4 months and he was severely wounded. When they brought my brother home, he

[31:30] was on a gurney and he couldn't get up, couldn't sit up. And I said, "Brother, I'll get some payback for you, bud." the 82nd Airborne Division and said, "Send me to Vietnam."

[31:44] And they did. And and so I So overall I ended up serving with the 82nd Airborne Division, the 18th Airborne Corps, 504th MP Battalion, and the 11th Special Forces Group to get a um

[31:58] as an 1811, that's a criminal investigator with the federal investigator with the federal government, FBI, ATF, DEA, US Customs, you had to have a 4-year degree. Uh so that's why I went to college.

[32:12] Started out as a police officer in High Point, North Carolina. When I was with the High Point Police Department when I got off, I was working on race cars, my own race car. And I was driving race cars on on the

[32:27] NASCAR circuit for 2 3 years. When I I was also building the engines for NASCAR uh, like Richard Childress. Childress. But that was part of my background. I I

[32:41] But that was part of my background. I I That's a very expensive way to try to make a living. It was way too expensive. Uh, and I ended up just being a cop. But, when I was with special forces,

[32:57] uh, we were training in explosives, and I was hanging out with the those guys that would uh, they were engineers. And they were they were blowing up

[33:10] stuff. That, along with driving race cars on a NASCAR circuit, and being a police officer, and being a police officer, and uh, watching my dad was all kind of

[33:24] pointing me in the same direction. This is what you're going to do. Uh, I went from there to uh, North Carolina A&T State University. I worked on a master's degree over there in psychology. But, I went from there

[33:38] psychology. But, I went from there to the United States Border Patrol. you had to go through the basic investigation training.

[33:52] A whole lot of it was firearms training, and I'm not I'm not talking about going out to the fire firing range and just shooting pistols and stuff. But, they introduced you to machine guns. What people think are illegal weapons out

[34:06] there, short-barreled shotguns and short-barreled uh, rifles, uh, short-barreled uh, rifles, uh, silencers. They did have M-79 grenade launchers. But, you also went through explosives post-explosives training. And

[34:20] that was everything from homemade devices, pipe bombs, to military-style work, ATF does have an undercover school.

[34:33] Uh they'll have a basic undercover school, they have advanced undercover school. I went to both. And the basic undercover school pretty much was these are the warning signs when it's time to get up and get out. It was also how to

[34:47] testify in court uh as an undercover agent. But it was really basic. Uh did not really teach you any psychological sides of it. Didn't teach

[35:00] uh how to talk your way out of getting killed. They had an advanced school, also. It was pretty much how to buy dope or how to buy guns. They would set up scenarios and had professional actors.

[35:16] You would work your way in to a a realistic type situation. And they they would be evaluating you. And and your performance. And then they would tell you after it

[35:32] was over with, "Uh well, you did this or you did this or you said this." And the difference in advanced undercover school and reality in advanced school, you're not

[35:46] cuz you know they're not going to kill you. But in reality you're dealing with the real bad guys, you always got in your mind if this goes

[35:58] bad, they could kill you. So, that's a different side of uh real school and learning how to be an undercover agent. When it comes to undercover work, it's like a talent. You got to have the guts to be able to

[36:14] go behind enemy li- lines, stand toe-to-toe with the guys that'll kill you, and not be nervous about it. Be able to play the game in their backyard, and be able to fool them into thinking

[36:29] you're just as bad as they are. If you don't have that skill, then forget it. The first time that you walk in, you lock eyes with the bad guy, it all of a sudden becomes real.

[36:41] Because if it goes bad, they could kill you. When it came to working undercover operations and standing toe-to-toe with the bad guys, I mean, in their backyard,

[36:54] for the most part that didn't scare me, either. going to be an ATF agent in Los Angeles. And that brought about a different way

[37:09] But I did it. It all had to do with firearms, explosives, and arson. Being with the 11th Special Forces Group, I think calling on me to do unusual stuff, identifying

[37:23] to do unusual stuff, identifying weapons, military-style weapons, operation. Um [snorts] an ATF agent came to me, told me one day, "Hey, look, this is a

[37:35] guy who's he's selling parts for guns, and somebody told us he was selling the complete parts for guns to put an M60 machine gun together." And I humped an machine gun together." And I humped an M60 in Vietnam a lot. I loved that gun.

[37:51] place and see if you can buy all the parts to put together a complete M60 machine gun?" They had 55-gallon drums full of gun parts. And I go through full of gun parts. And I go through these 55-gallon drums, and sure enough,

[38:05] I get a receiver here, I get barrels here, I'd get trigger groups here, and I got everything that you needed to put together a M60 machine gun. So I left, put the M60 together, said, "Here you are.

[38:21] Complete M-60. That's a devastating weapon. And yeah, I was meant to go back in and do it again, so I did. And we made a successful case against this guy selling all kinds of of

[38:33] military weaponry out to everybody in the Los Angeles area. I wasn't putting a machine gun together in front of him. I just selected all the parts I needed to put a machine gun together

[38:46] out the door. It didn't bother me at all. I didn't really think the guy was going to come up with a gun and shoot me. So, it was really kind of a light-hearted situation for an undercover operation.

[38:59] >> [sighs] >> But later on when I started buying dope undercover bad, this guy put a bullet through you. And then I was assigned to a drug task

[39:17] force with DEA. I began to do all the undercover work that anybody would ask me to do. Um a lot of drug stuff. But it wasn't until people started asking me to do anti-government groups

[39:33] and hate groups that it really got more serious. More serious than what I mean by going in a one-man, one-gun type operation or a one-man, one-eight ball

[39:46] type operation. But with DEA, you know, it was a kilos of of stuff. When you start buying dope out in Los Angeles

[39:58] you start dealing with some of the organized groups violent. And ATF wants to go after these violent groups. It's very very real then. Uh you do go

[40:13] in knowing although ATF might be next door to you, you know if it goes bad, they're going to kill you before ATF comes in or or the cops come in to save you. There There's

[40:27] They're not going to save you. You You just better be ready. the crime, the more excited that I was about doing

[40:40] something about it. White supremacy organizations, anti-government organizations, violent organizations are the people that I most dangerous. >> [snorts]

[40:55] >> Uh we got involved with them as ATF because of that violence. I was going in because of that violence. I was going in against violent people, and I knew that.

[41:10] always going to be at war, and they are today. And they're just as violent today today. And they're just as violent today with each other as they were back then or when I was in. Did the ATF learn from from this

[41:23] operation? Yes, they did. They did another outstanding undercover operation against the Mongols. Twice as many people got arrested, but they did learn. They didn't do it with a single undercover operative again. They

[41:38] did it with a whole group, and they did it with people that didn't have everything to lose. And his life that's going to change, but it's everybody that is associated with him, personally associated with him. His family, his

[41:52] life's going to change. My My ex, she was born and raised San Diego, California. She was born there, raised there. Her family was there, her friends were

[42:07] family was there, her friends were there. They picked her up one day and moved her all the way across the country. No warning.

[42:19] I did. Really good for ATF with the people out Really good for ATF with the people out in California.

[42:33] what it was going to cost me, I'd never done that. then please subscribe and comment with more topics that you'd like us to cover more topics that you'd like us to cover in this series.