DF Direct Q+A: Xbox Reboot Studio Closure Reports, RTX 50-Series Super Returns? ARM ML Rendering

[00:02] Hello there and welcome to the latest

[00:05] edition of the DF Direct Q&A show.

[00:07] You've got questions, we've got answers.

[00:09] Uh hopefully joining me first of all,

[00:11] hello Will Jud.

[00:13] >> Hello. It's good to be here as

[00:15] infrequently as ever.

[00:17] >> However, there are questions

[00:19] specifically aimed at you. So, this is a

[00:21] good one. Um okay. And uh also joining

[00:23] us, John Lman. Hello.

[00:26] >> Hello. Happy to be here on this

[00:27] judacular Monday. Uh, it's great to be

[00:30] joined by Will Jud. It's been awesome

[00:31] having you back, Will. I just want to

[00:33] say that so the public can hear it.

[00:35] >> Uh, it's good having the proper support

[00:37] on the back end, the the website stuff.

[00:40] So, yeah, good job, man. Welcome back.

[00:42] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, okay. Well,

[00:45] um, I guess we should just crack on with

[00:47] the questions, but first, this

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[01:57] Okay, then. So let's kick off with our

[01:59] first questions of the week. And uh

[02:02] we're actually having to refilm this

[02:04] because the dynamic situation with

[02:06] Microsoft is so dynamic that it seems to

[02:09] be changing on a 24-hourly basis. So our

[02:12] previous responses to these questions

[02:14] needs to be completely recalibrated. Uh,

[02:16] let's kick off with this one from Skyrim

[02:18] 26 FPS edition. When I see Satcha

[02:21] Nadella quoted as saying, "Now we have

[02:23] to turn Xbox into a sustainable

[02:25] business. Why do I mentally insert or

[02:28] else afterwards? Supposed options are

[02:30] spinning it off presumably to die and

[02:32] and be reborn as Activision Blizzard 2

[02:34] private equity edition or turning it

[02:37] into a JV, i.e. dead but someone maybe

[02:40] Asus gets the brand. I think that's

[02:41] probably pushing things a bit. Although

[02:43] things are pretty dire seemingly, I just

[02:46] hope for a quick resolution of the Xbox

[02:48] fiasco as I want this industry to

[02:49] succeed and maybe taking a player off

[02:51] the board will help that. Um, Djako in

[02:55] brackets, Dan, uh, lads exclamation

[02:57] point, what do you think to the recent

[02:58] rumblings that Microsoft is even

[03:00] considering spinning off or selling

[03:02] Xbox? Who would your preferred buyer be?

[03:04] Could Elon Musk really do a worse job?

[03:07] Absolutely yes, without doubt. Um, and

[03:10] if he bought it under his macro hard

[03:12] anti-Microsoft uh company name, would we

[03:15] be living in some kind of mirror

[03:17] universe? More like a sort of dystopian

[03:19] reality where everything has kind of

[03:21] gone horribly wrong. Although some might

[03:23] say the last 10 years is pretty much

[03:25] evidence of a Kelvin style divergence in

[03:28] the timeline. Um John, um yes, we

[03:32] originally um uh responded to these

[03:34] questions in the first draft uh of the

[03:37] first recording session, but um we were

[03:40] kind of like wanting Microsoft to just

[03:42] shut up and get on with business

[03:44] basically. I think that was the uh the

[03:46] the overriding messages because Satcha

[03:49] Dadella was basically coming out and

[03:51] saying, "Hey, you know, um we've been

[03:53] subsidizing video games for the last 25

[03:55] years. It's time for them. It's time for

[03:57] video games to pay us back essentially.

[03:59] And in the time since we recorded the

[04:02] first response to this uh to this topic.

[04:05] Um well, basically

[04:09] parts of the plan are starting to become

[04:11] apparent and it's pretty pretty bad

[04:13] news, right? Uh yes.

[04:17] I man I was commenting earlier that the

[04:21] the whiplash from this whole situation

[04:23] is honestly staggering because I think

[04:25] we came out of that recent sort of

[04:28] pseudo E3 presentation feeling pretty

[04:31] good about things right like it seemed

[04:33] like they were heading in a good

[04:34] direction. And it seemed like, you know,

[04:36] there would be some sacrifices,

[04:38] unfortunately, but what seems to be sort

[04:41] of coming out now suggests that it's

[04:43] actually a lot worse than we're

[04:44] expecting

[04:46] with studios either being spun out as

[04:49] independent in the best cases or simply

[04:52] being shuttered. Uh, and the names that

[04:54] are being mentioned is what's so

[04:57] concerning. Like in the case of

[05:00] Compulsion Games, for instance, I

[05:02] actually I I don't like to see that. I

[05:04] think they made a really cool game.

[05:06] They've done some good stuff, but you

[05:08] know, they haven't made enough games,

[05:11] one could argue, and the sales and

[05:14] performance of it was really poor. I

[05:15] mean, I can understand where the

[05:16] decision would come from, but when

[05:18] you're hearing, you know, you see Arcane

[05:21] is mentioned, um, Ninja Theories being

[05:24] mentioned despite just announcing a

[05:26] brand new game, sounds like Double

[05:27] Fine's going to spin out on their own

[05:29] hopefully. And then even stuff like

[05:31] machine games and ID software comes up

[05:34] as potential things that could either

[05:36] get shut down or hit. We don't yet know

[05:38] what's going to happen, but like it's

[05:41] just going too far. It's like they're

[05:42] saying, "Hey, we're just going to close

[05:43] all the developers you guys like." Um,

[05:46] >> right. And that comment about them just

[05:49] wanting to chase, it sounds like they

[05:51] just want to chase like the ultra

[05:53] high-end AAA uh sort of experiences,

[05:56] whittle down their portfolio to just the

[05:59] basics that like hit that market and

[06:02] that's it. And

[06:04] >> right,

[06:05] >> I guess basically the the best thing we

[06:07] can hope for is that these developers

[06:09] are able to essentially exit from

[06:11] Microsoft gracefully and somehow

[06:13] continue, right? If they could continue,

[06:16] that would be okay.

[06:18] >> But I don't want to see studios shut

[06:19] down and mass layoffs occur over this.

[06:21] And if that's the case, if they're just

[06:24] essentially removing so much talent and

[06:27] experience, it just feels like they're c

[06:29] like they're creating the problem that

[06:32] got them in this position in the first

[06:33] place, right? Like if you really go back

[06:35] historically and look, the Xbox 360 had

[06:38] a remarkably strong first and third

[06:40] party lineup. So did the original Xbox

[06:42] even, but 360 especially. But then there

[06:45] was a point where, and I think this was

[06:47] on Don Matrix watch, where they

[06:48] basically like whittleled down their

[06:50] first party stuff to almost nothing and

[06:53] they either focused too much on connect

[06:55] or they just didn't have much uh because

[06:57] they were so, you know, convinced that

[07:00] the third party support was all they

[07:01] needed. And then they spent years and

[07:03] years and years building up their first

[07:05] party portfolio again. And now I would

[07:08] say over the last five years, Xbox has

[07:10] had a pretty great stream of games being

[07:13] released, right? Like their developers

[07:15] are producing. There's a lot of stuff in

[07:16] the works. Like it seemed like things on

[07:18] the software side were going well and

[07:20] now it sounds like they just want to

[07:21] close it all down again and they're just

[07:23] going to wind up in that same stupid

[07:24] situation.

[07:26] Um, and it's just it's just emblematic

[07:29] of this constant feeling that they have

[07:31] no vision for where to go forward. And

[07:34] it's just decisions are being made on

[07:36] the whim. And every year it could be

[07:39] different. There was that clip from

[07:40] Psycho Odyssey

[07:42] >> uh about the making of Psychonauts 2

[07:44] that always goes around where somebody

[07:46] was asking about like uh you know when

[07:49] corporate visits and like oh yeah we

[07:51] love like Matt Booty and Phil Spencer

[07:52] and them you know they're they're the

[07:54] fun guys. It's what happens when Bill

[07:56] from accounting and so and so from

[07:58] marketing comes in on Friday. That's the

[08:01] problem. And it just feels like they put

[08:03] on a face that's like says one thing and

[08:06] then you know the penny pinchers come

[08:08] in. It's almost like they just

[08:11] >> uh leave them to they they say oh we're

[08:13] going to be hands off of the studios but

[08:15] they provide no guidance or support and

[08:16] then all of a sudden they like look at

[08:18] the at the you know finances and say oh

[08:21] we got to do something about this. Sorry

[08:22] guys. And it just kind of keeps

[08:24] happening. So

[08:26] >> right. Yeah. I mean, um, I'm just

[08:28] looking at reporting from Tom Warren,

[08:30] who is very well, uh, integrated. Lots

[08:32] of sources within Microsoft. He's saying

[08:34] that Xbox is closing down Ninja Theory,

[08:37] Compulsion Games, and Double Fine are

[08:39] also in quote unquote active

[08:41] negotiations about spinning off. I I

[08:44] wish them well. Um, and um, he also uh

[08:48] refers to an interview that Asha Sharma

[08:51] and um, Matt Bouty gave with Windows

[08:54] Central. And I'm just going to quote

[08:56] this. Um, the first conversations Asher

[08:59] and I had when we first met to do all of

[09:01] this, to her credit, she immediately

[09:02] emphasized supporting our studios and

[09:04] our games. Our ecosystem is built to be

[09:06] a portfolio of everything from small

[09:08] games to ongoing franchises to the big

[09:10] blockbusters. We've built at our core uh

[09:13] to build everything from Kil to Call of

[09:15] Duty. Everything from um Minecraft to

[09:18] South of Midnight. That's core to how

[09:20] we're set up. This is Matt Booty here. I

[09:23] think we've got one of the best

[09:24] portfolios out there, even in the

[09:25] entertainment industry more broadly in

[09:27] terms of that range. We're dedicated to

[09:29] it. And here's why. I believe that

[09:31] almost everything big started out as

[09:32] something small. We cannot lose the

[09:34] ability to have those places where

[09:36] little sparks can grow into something

[09:38] big. The creative environment that lets

[09:40] us take bets and creative risks has to

[09:42] be part of Xbox's culture. We're

[09:44] committed. Our studio system is built

[09:46] for that. Well, are they committed based

[09:49] on the fact that um you know it doesn't

[09:52] look as though um a lot of these studios

[09:55] are going to be supported in the way

[09:57] that was suggested there. Uh it's it's

[10:00] kind of shocking really the the the you

[10:02] know there's always a legacy quote that

[10:05] comes up to bite Microsoft uh in the

[10:08] behind whenever there's a big move like

[10:10] this really does suggest that there's

[10:12] just no sort of coherent strategy. Um,

[10:16] well, this is I mean I'm I'm staggered.

[10:20] I shouldn't be based on everything

[10:22] that's happened, but I am.

[10:24] >> Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think it's

[10:26] just that whiplash between, you know,

[10:28] the executive statements, which seem

[10:30] very reasonable and seem like there's a

[10:32] clear direction in place, the Xbox

[10:35] showcase, which was really positive,

[10:36] really exciting as, you know, an Xbox

[10:38] fan or somebody who just enjoys the

[10:40] games on PC. Seems like there's plenty

[10:42] going on. And you know, as they say,

[10:44] like a good range from AAA stuff down to

[10:46] double A stuff and indie games all kind

[10:48] of included. But you know, and then the

[10:52] other shoe drops and then this is the

[10:54] kind of stuff that we have to deal with,

[10:56] right? And that these developers have to

[10:57] deal with more importantly

[10:59] >> is that it seems like, you know, there's

[11:01] going to be a very harsh reset for a lot

[11:03] of studios. And I'm sure that beyond the

[11:06] closures and the studios being spun off,

[11:10] there's also going to be a lot of them

[11:11] that are facing layoffs, right? So,

[11:14] >> it's Yeah, it's just really problematic,

[11:17] I think, especially, you know, for Ninja

[11:19] Theory to have had a game announced and

[11:22] have such a positive reception to it and

[11:24] then to be in the headlines a few days

[11:27] later to say, "Oh, yeah, and probably

[11:28] the studio won't exist after that."

[11:30] Like, will that game even come out? will

[11:32] come out and then the studio closes

[11:34] down. Like neither of those are great

[11:36] options. And uh yeah, it's it's just a

[11:40] real shame. Like obviously there's a lot

[11:42] of pressure from Xbox and certain parts

[11:45] of it at least to be um always producing

[11:48] bangers, you know, being uh capable of

[11:52] producing these kind of evergreen titles

[11:53] that people will just spend almost

[11:55] unlimited amounts of money on. But I

[11:57] think it's really important for

[11:58] Microsoft and for Xbox to also be

[12:01] supporting these kind of mid-level um

[12:04] studios that have more reasonable

[12:05] budgets that aren't taking huge swings

[12:08] on everything and are able to come out

[12:10] with games that are made at a reasonable

[12:12] price and you know therefore you get a

[12:15] lot of different bites of the cherry,

[12:16] right? So

[12:18] >> yeah, just super disappointing news and

[12:21] uh yeah, hard to see how this kind of

[12:23] jes with everything that Microsoft's

[12:25] executives have said before.

[12:27] Right. Yeah. I mean, the ecosystem seem

[12:30] to be designed for Game Pass to create a

[12:32] range of um games of varying sizes and

[12:36] varying shapes and different types of

[12:38] games to support a vibrant

[12:40] subscriptionbased offering.

[12:42] >> And I think, you know, it took years to

[12:44] get there. And I think, you know, part

[12:45] of the issue that Microsoft had with

[12:47] Xbox Series in particular is that there

[12:49] was a failure to deliver games in those

[12:51] first few years.

[12:54] um that has kind of like been reversed

[12:56] at this point. We've had some

[12:57] sensational games from Microsoft. Um we

[13:00] had this fantastic showcase just a few

[13:02] weeks ago. There seems to be I don't

[13:04] know, John, there seems to be this

[13:05] incredible sort of lack of

[13:07] self-awareness about about everything

[13:10] that they're messaging to the audience

[13:11] at this point, you know, because

[13:13] obviously they went into this showcase

[13:15] and uh we're going to show great things.

[13:17] there was um a lot of interaction

[13:19] between um management and um the fan

[13:22] base and then this happens like weeks

[13:26] later. I just don't understand the

[13:29] reasoning or the strategy here. It just

[13:31] doesn't make sense. And you know, if

[13:33] there are poor decisions being made just

[13:36] on the messaging side, then what else is

[13:38] going on? I mean, man, this is this is

[13:41] just crazy stuff. From the outside,

[13:43] there's this sense that there's a huge

[13:45] conflict that's brewed between, say, the

[13:48] Xbox group and Microsoft corporate. You

[13:51] know, people like Satia Nadella at the

[13:53] top. What they want doesn't really seem

[13:55] to align well with this. And when you

[13:58] see them all interviewed separately,

[14:00] they often make statements that feel

[14:02] kind of conflicting, which makes it seem

[14:04] like they all have their own desires for

[14:06] things and kind of let that slip. And

[14:07] there's no like real unified message

[14:09] here, which makes me do it makes me feel

[14:12] like Xbox if it I don't know how this is

[14:15] possible, but I would just it would be

[14:17] interesting to see it spun out as its

[14:19] own thing somehow, at least somewhat

[14:22] separate from Microsoft corporate. I

[14:24] mean, we know that Satia is all in on

[14:27] co-pilot and AI and all that nonsense.

[14:29] Like to him like I think he is exactly

[14:32] the type of person that would feel zero

[14:35] remorse about laying off the entire

[14:37] gaming team, every single person, so he

[14:40] could, you know, invest more in AI. I

[14:42] genuinely think he would not care. Uh

[14:45] it's that type of like personality we're

[14:47] probably dealing with here. And I think

[14:49] this is not what's interesting to him as

[14:51] as a business leader. And it doesn't

[14:53] feel like it suits what Microsoft is

[14:56] right now. You know what I mean? like

[14:58] Microsoft of 2026 is not the same

[15:00] Microsoft that started Xbox. And I think

[15:04] I would like to see all this Xbox

[15:06] because we know we know a lot of people

[15:08] that work at Xbox, right? We have like

[15:11] friends and contacts within all these

[15:13] studios and Xbox proper. I do believe

[15:16] that the people working within that

[15:19] organization genuinely do actually care

[15:21] about this stuff and they want to make

[15:23] great things, but they're limited by

[15:26] this this management situation and being

[15:28] part of Microsoft as a company. So, if

[15:31] they could find a way to split, that

[15:33] would be wonderful. But how that's

[15:35] possible, I do not know.

[15:39] >> Right. I think, you know, fundamentally

[15:40] the issue with spinning off from um

[15:42] Microsoft is that they would still be

[15:44] the the effective owner. They would just

[15:47] be outside of the corporate structure to

[15:50] a certain degree.

[15:51] >> To a certain degree. And maybe that

[15:52] would be what's necessary to make the

[15:54] decisions that are actually good for the

[15:56] gaming business. I I don't know. Like

[15:58] this is

[16:00] there's just there's too much going on

[16:02] here and we don't have enough

[16:03] information. I think most of most of

[16:05] what we're saying is just born out of

[16:06] frustration of seeing a business that we

[16:09] love and care about essentially being

[16:11] like ground down into nothing and this

[16:14] like constant whiplash between like a

[16:16] positive message and then a negative

[16:18] message. And unfortunately, I feel like

[16:21] the Western gaming industry especially

[16:23] is just in a really bad place right now.

[16:25] Microsoft's not the only one doing this,

[16:27] but it's pretty severe from their camp.

[16:30] And

[16:31] >> I feel like what we're really seeing is

[16:33] the effects that we all cautioned about

[16:35] is like all these acquisitions and like

[16:37] creating large conglomerates built from

[16:41] so many different companies. It's not

[16:42] sustainable and it's going to end badly.

[16:45] And I think there's definitely cases

[16:47] where certain acquisitions may have

[16:49] occurred because the company could no

[16:51] longer operate independently and they

[16:53] essentially needed an out and this

[16:54] essentially just bought them time. But I

[16:56] don't believe that's the case in every

[16:58] situation.

[17:00] So, I don't know.

[17:02] >> Yeah, there does seem to be like um

[17:05] inconsistency in messaging because um

[17:07] and this goes back to um the whole uh

[17:10] four games situation um the business

[17:13] update where you know we heard about the

[17:15] the the beginnings of a multiplatform uh

[17:18] plan which everybody kind of knew was

[17:20] already fully formed or very close to

[17:22] it. And at the same time as that was

[17:24] happening, you know, there was very sort

[17:26] of careful messaging from management at

[17:29] that point, even though it didn't feel

[17:31] particularly accurate. Um, but at the

[17:33] same time, you had Sachin Nadella

[17:35] basically wading in with his size

[17:38] 12elves

[17:40] saying, uh, yeah, you know, what's the

[17:42] point of exclusives, that sort of thing,

[17:44] basically undermining management. So,

[17:46] you know, there does seem to be a

[17:47] continuing sort of um friction between

[17:50] Microsoft and and Xbox leadership and uh

[17:53] and now it seems to be the same thing

[17:55] happening again where you know we've

[17:58] basically got comments that were being

[18:00] made by new management just a few weeks

[18:02] or or you know a couple of months ago

[18:05] basically disappearing and uh complete

[18:09] about face on strategies just absolutely

[18:11] baffling. I think there's just got to be

[18:14] a firm sort of um strategy that they're

[18:18] going to commit to that is positively

[18:20] communicated to the community because

[18:22] what on earth is all of this about and

[18:25] it is just you this lack of

[18:26] self-awareness you know Sanchi was

[18:28] talking about um uh obviously the big

[18:31] hardware issues that we've got at the

[18:33] moment and you know complete sort of

[18:35] lack of self-awareness that Microsoft is

[18:38] a key player in actually causing all of

[18:40] that and no sort of evidence that

[18:42] Microsoft is, you know, going to help

[18:44] out uh to help out Xbox in navigating

[18:47] through this when surely they can to a

[18:49] certain degree. No, it looks as though

[18:52] that um they've made their investment

[18:53] over the last 25 years. Uh uh YouTube is

[18:57] making more money off Xbox than Xbox is,

[18:59] which is baffling. I don't know where

[19:01] that comment came from. I just don't

[19:03] know what to make of all of this at this

[19:04] point. And it's funny because we did

[19:07] record an initial response to these

[19:09] questions yesterday in fact where it was

[19:11] kind of like okay maybe they just need

[19:13] to shut up and get on with it and then

[19:15] you know come up with a strategy and and

[19:17] execute it and um uh you know it's sort

[19:21] of we have to redo our own content now

[19:24] to adjust to Microsoft's changing

[19:26] messaging over 24 hours. Absolutely

[19:29] baffling. Absolutely bizarre. But no, uh

[19:32] I still think that Elon Musk would

[19:34] probably do a worse job.

[19:37] >> Oh yeah, undoubtedly.

[19:40] >> Any final comments, Will?

[19:42] >> Um I would just say that, you know, if

[19:45] this is going to come to pass, I really

[19:47] hope that they say, "Okay, we've had to

[19:50] close some studios. We had made some

[19:52] layoffs, but from now on, we're going to

[19:55] invest in the studios that remain. we're

[19:57] going to be trying and get ourselves

[19:58] into a really strong position so that

[20:00] when Helix comes out it'll be supported

[20:03] by a really good like you know launch

[20:05] library right I think that has to be the

[20:07] goal here and if these cuts are

[20:09] necessary to make that happen then you

[20:11] know it still is incredibly painful but

[20:14] at least it would have been worth it in

[20:15] some sense right so I just hope that

[20:18] this is the start of a consistent

[20:20] strategy that actually sets them up for

[20:22] some kind of success in the future

[20:25] >> yeah I think I echo that I think the

[20:27] bottom line is that um we just need to

[20:29] know what the plan is and I think more

[20:30] to the point the staff at Microsoft in

[20:33] all the development studios and you know

[20:35] and within Xbox itself kind of need to

[20:37] know what's going on because I don't

[20:38] think anybody does at this point it's

[20:40] just absolutely absolutely baffling. Uh

[20:43] a final comment from you John.

[20:45] >> Um what you said will that sounds so

[20:48] hopeful. That would be nice. Uh, but I'm

[20:51] sure that's exactly what they thought

[20:52] when they launched Xbox Series X and S,

[20:56] right? And it didn't pay out. So,

[21:00] although they did actually end up

[21:01] getting the games, but I feel like now

[21:03] it's just I don't know. All I'll say is

[21:05] if they if they dare touch a company

[21:07] like ID Software or something, I will

[21:10] never forgive them.

[21:13] I was super angry over the things with

[21:15] like Bluepoint and all that with Sony,

[21:17] but if you go after a a studio like ID

[21:21] that has produced nothing but greatness

[21:23] and the best technology in the industry

[21:25] and try to shut them down or bring or

[21:28] cut them to to pieces, like no, it's not

[21:31] okay. I'm not I I could never forgive

[21:33] that.

[21:35] I think basically, you know, an

[21:37] explainer to the audience about what has

[21:39] happened and why rather than just, you

[21:42] know, we typically what happens is a

[21:44] memo from the CEO is sent to the staff

[21:46] and that memo is then shared with the

[21:48] audience and the memo is basically word

[21:50] salad. There's no real sort of proper

[21:53] explanation. It's challenging

[21:54] conditions, that sort of wordage. Um,

[21:58] what's going on? you know, you know,

[22:00] Xbox, you can't reach out to your fan

[22:02] base, uh, try to reconnect with them,

[22:06] show them amazing games, and then

[22:08] basically come back a couple of weeks

[22:09] later and say, "Well, actually, we've

[22:11] got some real problems here. Sorry, it's

[22:13] just absolutely bizarre." Anyway, I

[22:16] think we can all hopefully move on.

[22:19] Okay, sort of leading on from that,

[22:20] interesting question here from Dudley

[22:22] the Gentleman. Hello, renowned Pixel

[22:24] Purity Police. Do you see the Xbox brand

[22:27] becoming the next 3Dio where Microsoft

[22:29] defines the specifications and OEMs

[22:32] build the hardware? If so, how can they

[22:34] be successful where 3Dio and even Valve

[22:36] with the original Steam machines have

[22:37] failed? Uh I think that is probably a

[22:40] key part of the strategy, right, John?

[22:42] Where they're talking about um

[22:43] partnerships, hardware partnerships. Um

[22:47] uh yeah, Will, we had a a discussion the

[22:50] other day. It's like, well, why are

[22:51] Microsoft seemingly so badly affected by

[22:53] these component shortages when

[22:56] >> Microsoft is buying a lot of the

[22:58] components elsewhere within the

[23:00] business? And I'll come to you shortly

[23:01] on that, John. But 3DIDO, obviously, you

[23:04] know, there's associations that this

[23:05] this wasn't really a great thing. It

[23:08] didn't really um make an impact. It was

[23:11] an interesting idea.

[23:13] Is it the new 3Dio? Could Project Helix

[23:16] be the new 3DO?

[23:17] >> Is there a positive spin on that?

[23:20] I mean, maybe, but I I think

[23:22] conceptually what they did with 3Dio is

[23:24] interesting, but it's just like the time

[23:26] and place, the market conditions now are

[23:28] just so fundamentally different that I

[23:30] don't really think it's even remotely

[23:33] comparable. 3DIO ultimately the biggest

[23:36] issue there was um obviously software

[23:39] was not as good as it needed to be. uh

[23:42] though it's not bad but secondly that

[23:44] model at the time game consoles really

[23:47] relied on on being subsidized right so

[23:50] it was the blades and ra blades and

[23:52] razor model essentially or blade and

[23:54] razors model where essentially you know

[23:57] they sell the hardware often at a loss

[24:00] they make it up with software licensing

[24:02] but due to the way 3DO worked you know

[24:04] if you have Panasonic or Goldstar

[24:06] whoever making a 3DO back then they

[24:08] didn't get anything from the software

[24:11] really, right? So, there was no benefit

[24:14] to them selling units at a loss. So,

[24:17] they didn't. And that's kind of why the

[24:20] price had to be as high as it was. And I

[24:21] think at the time, it was just way too

[24:24] expensive. Didn't have enough software.

[24:26] Uh, and it was just a crazy time in the

[24:28] market in general. Everything was in

[24:29] flux. And so, you know, a year or some

[24:33] change later, Sony comes along and does

[24:36] a similar thing, but way better. Uh,

[24:38] yeah, there was no chance. Now we're in

[24:41] the era of I guess I mean hardware in

[24:44] general is more expensive. Uh

[24:48] Xbox as a brand is already established,

[24:51] right? 3Dio had to be uh built up from

[24:54] nothing and Xbox already has a very

[24:58] large library of games and publishers

[25:00] working for it and it owns tons of

[25:01] development studios. I mean they have

[25:04] what they need for software support. So,

[25:07] if they were to take this approach,

[25:10] conceivably like the software side

[25:12] wouldn't really be an issue, which is

[25:14] why it could still find success. Um, but

[25:17] I don't know what that would mean for

[25:18] prices. And I mean, if OEMs are building

[25:20] this hardware,

[25:23] but I don't think companies today take

[25:25] as much of a loss on hardware as they

[25:28] used to, it feels like. Uh, I I I we

[25:32] need to actually check the numbers on

[25:33] that, but I don't know. And I still

[25:36] think that Xbox itself at least I would

[25:40] imagine that it's still going to

[25:41] manufacture at least its own firstparty

[25:43] devices to some degree. Like I don't

[25:45] think it's all going to become like Asus

[25:47] ROG boxes and stuff like that. Like I

[25:50] still have a feeling that Helix or

[25:52] whatever it is is going to end up having

[25:54] an actual official Microsoft built

[25:57] device.

[25:58] >> Oh, sure. Yeah. They've committed to it.

[25:59] They're making it the reference device

[26:02] that's happening.

[26:02] >> Exactly. So that and that's a different

[26:04] thing. You know, if they allow others to

[26:06] make a similar thing, that's that's, you

[26:08] know, that is more like what the 3Dio

[26:10] did, but 3Dio never had its own

[26:12] reference device.

[26:14] >> Yeah.

[26:14] >> So,

[26:15] >> what we need is a uh Project Helix

[26:17] Wonder Mega.

[26:19] >> Oh my god. Yeah. That's Sega. Sega

[26:22] really did used to do that, right? Like

[26:24] they had their main systems, but then

[26:25] they let companies like JVC make their

[26:28] own stuff. And damn, if anybody has a

[26:31] Wonder Mega, man, that's the one that's

[26:33] my my white whale for for retro

[26:35] consoles. The original Wonder Mega. I've

[26:38] been wanting one of those for so long,

[26:39] but man, they're tough to get.

[26:43] Um, well, let's talk about this OEM

[26:45] strategy. I'm a bit confused by it

[26:46] because um

[26:50] it surely it's just adding somebody else

[26:52] to the supply chain that wants to make

[26:54] money out of these devices. So, you

[26:56] know, obviously there's going to be AMD

[26:58] making all of the um uh all of the

[27:01] chips, right? Uh TSMC probably making

[27:04] actually pro actually fabricating the

[27:07] chips. AMD, I don't know, are they are

[27:10] they kind of making a license? I guess

[27:12] it is a license deal with Microsoft. So,

[27:14] Microsoft would then sell the chips to

[27:17] Asus, MSI, whoever wants them, Dell. And

[27:20] you know, surely this is just like

[27:22] somebody else in the chain who needs to

[27:24] make money out of this device. And how

[27:26] how are they going to make money on it?

[27:27] I'm a bit confused by that.

[27:30] >> Yeah, it's a bit of a weird situation.

[27:32] Like with the ROG Ally, it kind of made

[27:35] sense because ASUS had already produced

[27:38] this device and Microsoft could make

[27:40] some small hardware changes, make some

[27:42] bigger software changes, and then they

[27:44] had a product that made sense. But for

[27:47] Helix, I don't know if that's kind of

[27:49] the same situation. Obviously, Asus and

[27:51] Dell and whoever isn't going to have,

[27:53] you know, 90% of a viable project Helix

[27:55] sitting around. So, I think if they do

[27:59] go down this route, it might be more

[28:01] about adapting it to different regions.

[28:04] Like, um, for example, like Valve, they

[28:07] kind of let other companies in China

[28:10] run, you know, the Steam network and and

[28:12] run, you know, and sell devices and

[28:14] things like that, right? where they're

[28:16] kind of handing over some

[28:19] responsibilities to local experts. So, I

[28:21] could see a situation like that where

[28:23] they say, "Okay, well, we're going to

[28:24] make Project Helix for China and it's

[28:26] going to be made by a Chinese company

[28:27] and it's going to have different

[28:29] software and it's going to have all

[28:30] these, you know, adaptations that make

[28:32] it more viable there." And, you know,

[28:34] you could do the same thing with South

[28:36] Korea or Japan or another kind of big

[28:38] but slightly different market. Um, in

[28:41] terms of just, you know, having it

[28:42] wholesale, I think, yeah, it does just

[28:45] kind of complicate things and there

[28:46] would need to be a good reason to do it.

[28:49] I guess diversifying, you know, the

[28:51] investments and things like that would

[28:53] be good, but yeah, it's hard to say that

[28:56] there's like a huge need for, you know,

[28:59] Project Helix to be made for like by 12

[29:01] different companies unless they're doing

[29:03] something genuinely interesting with the

[29:05] hardware or the software or something

[29:06] like that.

[29:07] >> Mhm. I mean, the only thing I can think

[29:09] of is that possibly they would have um

[29:12] uh superior procurement on stuff like

[29:15] SSDs and memory modules compared to

[29:17] Microsoft, but that is kind of

[29:19] staggering in its own. Yeah, just the

[29:21] conceit of that is kind of hard to

[29:24] believe. You know, Microsoft have been

[29:26] making even without all of the server

[29:27] stuff, they've been making laptops,

[29:29] they've been making consoles, they've

[29:31] had relationships presumably with TSMC

[29:34] and and the memory manufacturers for

[29:36] decades. So, I'm I'm still sort of a bit

[29:38] mystified by all of this. What I can see

[29:40] is that if Helix is indeed a machine

[29:43] that is just as much a PC as it is a

[29:46] console, then there could be uh bespoke

[29:49] designs designed for specific uh PC use

[29:52] cases because obviously the um the great

[29:55] thing about the PC is the diversity of

[29:57] the components that could go into one or

[29:59] the use cases, you know. So you could

[30:01] possibly have a helix machine that has

[30:03] more memory for example if you wanted to

[30:05] also use it for production tasks or

[30:07] something like that. Uh so then you sort

[30:10] of build up an ecosystem of Xbox

[30:12] adjacent or or even Xbox branded devices

[30:15] but they are made by like MSI Dell or

[30:17] whatever. And I do think, you know, from

[30:19] a value perspective, compared to some of

[30:21] the pre-builts, there is probably going

[30:23] to be a good value argument there. But,

[30:26] you know, a mainstream device, um, I I I

[30:31] find it really hard to imagine um those

[30:34] guys coming up with that, um, particular

[30:37] device for that particular audience

[30:38] because there's not really any money in

[30:40] it. Um, okay, let's move on. Okay. So, a

[30:45] question here from Marcus. Hi,

[30:46] Foundryman. exclamation point. What your

[30:48] thoughts on ARM's new quote unquote

[30:50] neural technology stack for mobile

[30:52] graphics with new super sampling, new

[30:55] frame rate upscaling, and neural super

[30:57] sampling and denoising? Seems like an

[30:59] unusually open attempt at an ML

[31:01] rendering suite for mobile covering

[31:03] upscaling, frame interpolation, and

[31:05] combined upscaling and denoising. Could

[31:08] this be important for vendors that do

[31:09] not have something like DLSS, Metal

[31:11] Effects, FSR, or a mature in-house

[31:13] solution? More broadly, could open

[31:16] developerfacing tools like this help

[31:18] raise image quality across Android

[31:20] phones, handheld class devices, and

[31:23] perhaps eventually Windows on ARM

[31:25] systems? I hope you have a great week.

[31:26] Explanation point. Uh, thanks for that,

[31:28] Marcus. Um, well, we were going to talk

[31:30] about this in the direct last week, but

[31:32] um, we didn't because well, you actually

[31:35] did the article on digitalfoundry.net.

[31:37] You spoke to the people involved,

[31:39] >> and I thought we'd save it up

[31:42] >> uh, for you to talk about.

[31:44] Yeah. So, it's a pretty cool uh

[31:47] announcement really. So, it's

[31:48] essentially a whole uh version of the

[31:52] kind of DLSS suite of technologies. So,

[31:55] there's uh upsampling, there's

[31:57] upsampling with dnoising, there's frame

[31:59] generation under a different name. And

[32:02] yeah, it's very very cool. It's got um

[32:05] you know some limitations but they've

[32:08] already demonstrated it by building an

[32:10] entire game with Sumo Digital which is

[32:13] about 2 hours which feels like a full

[32:15] length game for for a mobile uh mobile

[32:18] system and it seems to allow you know

[32:21] enough uh extra performance headroom

[32:23] that you can do some really cool uh more

[32:26] advanced graphical techniques on what is

[32:28] fundamentally a very low power device.

[32:31] So, they've demonstrated it with uh

[32:33] Unreal Engine 5 megal lights and they've

[32:35] got kind of an interesting cave system

[32:38] that has all these bioluminescent things

[32:40] in the background all drawing, you know,

[32:43] doing their own lighting and yeah, it's

[32:45] it's an interesting idea. I think the

[32:48] key limitation at the moment is that

[32:52] this is going to require future ARM

[32:55] hardware like I guess their next

[32:57] generation Mali GPU to work. So that

[33:01] means that until that hardware is

[33:03] actually in the hands of a significant

[33:05] number of people, you can't fully rely

[33:07] on it to produce a game, right? But what

[33:10] it does do is it makes the development

[33:12] process a lot quicker and easier as well

[33:15] because you don't have to bake out

[33:17] lighting and then see how it looks and

[33:19] then adjust things. You can, you know,

[33:21] have artists working and seeing their uh

[33:23] changes in real time. And then after you

[33:25] get to the end of that process,

[33:27] presumably you can then say, "Okay, and

[33:29] now we convert this to a baked

[33:30] alternative." So, it's still

[33:33] interesting. And the fact that they're

[33:34] releasing a toolkit and they're

[33:35] releasing all the assets from the game

[33:38] is a really cool move. And it seems

[33:40] like, you know, they just want to make

[33:41] sure that this level of technology is

[33:44] available to a whole new um, you know,

[33:47] platform, a whole new audience. And

[33:49] yeah, it's it's uh, fascinating. I think

[33:52] we'll probably have to wait until we see

[33:54] the game running, you know, on real

[33:56] hardware to get a better sense of how it

[33:58] does in terms of image quality. Uh

[34:00] certainly what they've released looks

[34:02] like the image quality isn't, you know,

[34:04] certainly the highest end that you would

[34:06] expect from a PC or a console. And there

[34:09] are some question marks over um

[34:11] performance as well, especially in terms

[34:14] of touch latency and how that interacts

[34:16] with uh 30 fps to a 60 fps uh frame rate

[34:20] upscale aka frame gen. So very very

[34:23] interesting so far. I think you know as

[34:25] an open source open kind of project it's

[34:28] it's really worth um you know mentioning

[34:31] and and highlighting and and gives a lot

[34:33] uh of interesting ideas for mobile

[34:36] developers no doubt but yeah really

[34:37] cool. Yeah, they put out a video asset

[34:40] and um

[34:42] sort of a bit sort of uh curious about

[34:46] why they did that because they're

[34:48] talking about, you know, upscaling frame

[34:50] generation, frame generation, and then

[34:51] they put out a 30 fps video.

[34:54] >> So, you know, show us the frame

[34:56] generation, please, because we're not

[34:58] seeing it in a 30 fps video. It's just

[35:00] kind of bizarre. But yeah, it's an

[35:02] interesting step forward. But, you know,

[35:03] I'm there've been kind of lots of um

[35:06] technology demos we've seen in the past

[35:08] for mobile that, you know, never really

[35:11] translate into final products and there

[35:13] isn't really any kind of need for them

[35:15] because, you know, cutting edge

[35:16] rendering on a mobile phone isn't really

[35:19] done anymore. So, I'm very curious as to

[35:20] why they did this. But, you know, the

[35:22] the sentiment behind it that, you know,

[35:24] to to actually go open with all of these

[35:27] technologies, I think is uh is to be

[35:29] commended. Um, do you have any thoughts

[35:31] there John?

[35:32] >> Sure. Yeah, I mean I think the open

[35:34] nature of this uh is actually

[35:36] potentially important if it can take

[35:38] off. I mean just being open doesn't

[35:40] necessarily mean success, but I mean

[35:42] they're targeting mid to lower-end

[35:44] devices and mobile in general where

[35:46] there's more sensitivity towards battery

[35:48] life. And Android traditionally, they

[35:50] haven't really had a solution for this.

[35:52] Uh other solutions like on Apple for

[35:54] instance, the metal effect stuff that's

[35:56] all closed proprietary, right?

[35:58] >> DLSS itself proprietary.

[36:01] uh FSR is and XESS are kind of open, but

[36:05] there's still more fixed functiony and

[36:07] there's still limitations there. So,

[36:09] this is kind of like, you know, this

[36:11] feels like a pretty awesome solution,

[36:14] especially when targeting those mobile

[36:16] devices. Uh, it could be good for

[36:21] basically allowing lower res rendering

[36:24] on mobile where battery is so important,

[36:27] but a lot of the other stuff, I'm not

[36:29] sure how important that'll actually wind

[36:30] up being in practice. talking to people

[36:33] that are into like big mobile games for

[36:35] instance, uh the high-end Unreal stuff

[36:38] for typically isn't very popular or

[36:42] there's issues with it because it is

[36:44] notorious for just being heavier on the

[36:46] phone, draining the battery faster,

[36:48] taking longer to load up. Uh one of the

[36:51] things that helped make like Mihoyo

[36:53] stuff so popular like Genchin is that it

[36:56] looks beautiful. Uh, but it's actually

[36:59] like pretty lightweight, right? It's a

[37:02] Unity based game, but it's it's fairly

[37:04] lightweight. It's quick to load. It

[37:05] actually runs quite well. Um, but maybe

[37:10] this could help make some of the more

[37:12] advanced stuff a little bit more

[37:14] reasonable. We'll see. I don't know.

[37:17] It's It's good though. It's always good

[37:18] to see additional open standards uh

[37:21] dropped into the market. It just reminds

[37:23] me of um what what was the uh the

[37:26] standard prior to Vulcan? Uh

[37:30] >> no, no, no. There was that one that I'm

[37:32] forgetting the name that was developed

[37:34] before Vulcan.

[37:37] >> Mantle.

[37:38] >> Mantle. Yes. Remember Mantle?

[37:40] >> I do.

[37:43] >> I don't know. That just sprung to mind.

[37:46] >> Okay. Yeah. Mantle. What a what a time.

[37:49] That was awesome.

[37:50] >> Yes.

[37:50] >> Uh okay. Uh, let's move on. Um, I got a

[37:53] question here from Andreas Wright. Hey,

[37:55] DFO over Overlords. I'm not sure who

[37:57] we're overlording over, but whatever.

[38:00] Uh, hey DF overlords. Due to leaks on

[38:02] Nvidia reportedly releasing 50 series

[38:05] super cards, do you think these are

[38:06] necessary? And what specs prices should

[38:09] we be expecting? So, yeah, I mean, we

[38:12] were kind of expecting this this year,

[38:13] but owing to the memory crisis, it never

[38:15] happened. But um the 50 series line was

[38:18] to receive a refresh which would have

[38:21] seen um essentially uh cards that have

[38:24] got 2 GB memory modules replaced with 3

[38:26] GB memory modules. So um an RTX 5070

[38:30] would go up from 12 GB to 18 GB which

[38:34] sounds pretty awesome, right? And 16 to

[38:36] 24 for like the 5070 Ti and 5080 and you

[38:40] know not too bad. potentially the idea

[38:44] of a 12 GB RTX 5060. I would be super on

[38:48] board with that. Um Will,

[38:51] what do you think?

[38:53] >> Yeah, I mean I think in a normal year

[38:56] this definitely would have happened and

[38:58] it would have made sense. And I mean I

[39:00] think one of the major criticisms of

[39:04] Nvidia graphics cards over you know the

[39:06] past 5 years has been that they haven't

[39:09] really kept pace in terms of VRAM

[39:11] allocations certainly compared to AMD

[39:14] which seems to see 16 GB as more of a

[39:16] standard for a mid-range and above card.

[39:19] So you know using more advanced memory

[39:22] uh chips that have 3 GB instead of two

[39:24] that makes total sense. It allows them

[39:26] to not have to change much else in terms

[39:29] of the design and still bump up the VRAM

[39:31] to levels which you know I feel 12 GB is

[39:34] is extremely reasonable for a 60 series

[39:38] uh class product. So

[39:39] >> absolutely

[39:40] >> I think it makes a ton of sense in terms

[39:42] of pricing. It's hard to say. Normally

[39:44] the super uh lineup kind of replaces the

[39:48] original cards at the same price because

[39:50] those original cards will have you know

[39:52] gone down in price in the intervening

[39:55] you know months or years but given the

[39:58] current memory crisis and how much

[40:01] everything costs that extends to VRAM so

[40:03] it's hard to see if that is necessarily

[40:05] what we should expect. Um, I ran some

[40:09] numbers and I'm kind of thinking 5060

[40:13] super would be 349 to 399 possibly. 5070

[40:18] super 559 5070 Ti super 749 and 5080

[40:23] super 9999 again if they're kind of

[40:25] replacing those original cards at a

[40:28] similar price. So I think you know

[40:31] competitively these look really good but

[40:34] again we're in such an unprecedented

[40:36] time at the moment that it's really hard

[40:38] to predict with any level of certainty

[40:40] what these things are going to cost but

[40:41] you know the the core concept is at

[40:43] least solid and I would welcome this.

[40:46] Yeah, I think um Nvidia in a hard place,

[40:48] right? Because if the um next generation

[40:51] GPUs have also been delayed, which seems

[40:53] likely, right? It's not beyond the

[40:55] realms of possibility, then you can you

[40:58] go 2 years without a new GeForce product

[41:00] launch.

[41:02] >> Uh that would be asking quite a lot,

[41:04] right? Um the question is availability

[41:06] of these um higher density memory

[41:09] modules and how much it costs them to

[41:11] buy, which we just don't know. So

[41:13] pricing could be anything really. We

[41:15] just have no idea whatsoever.

[41:17] >> The weird thing is from from my

[41:18] perspective is that we are in the middle

[41:20] of a memory crisis. We have seen um

[41:23] comments from Asher Sharma from Xbox

[41:25] about you know ballooning prices and and

[41:28] yet you can still buy um an RX970 XT and

[41:33] a 9070 for reasonable prices. Uh the

[41:37] other week you could buy an RTX 5070 in

[41:39] the UK for less than its original launch

[41:42] price. I'm wondering what's going on

[41:44] there. Is there is there something in in

[41:46] terms of the sort of supply chain that

[41:48] we're missing here? Um because those

[41:51] prices, you know, they're not bad.

[41:54] Certainly nowhere near as bad as what's

[41:55] been happening on the SSD front and um

[41:58] on the DDR5 side of things. So, I'm I'm

[42:01] kind of curious as to how that's all

[42:03] sort of panning out.

[42:04] >> Uh but John, new graphics cards, even if

[42:07] they are essentially the same generation

[42:09] with more memory, that would be pretty

[42:10] good, right? I mean, sure, but we

[42:12] already have a product coming out again.

[42:14] It's called the uh RTX 3060.

[42:17] >> Yes, somehow it has returned.

[42:21] >> Uh I mean, sure. Yeah.

[42:22] >> Style.

[42:24] >> It's more cards would be nice. I guess

[42:29] it's just we're we're still in this

[42:31] weird spot with pricing and

[42:33] availability, so it's really hard to

[42:34] say. And launching anything new is just

[42:37] going to sell out quickly. They probably

[42:39] won't make that many. I don't know is

[42:42] we're we're still in a weird I said the

[42:43] other day like it feels like they they

[42:46] made it to the 5090 and then they like

[42:48] put the you know they they marked their

[42:51] spot on the rock and they're like all

[42:52] right we've we've gone far enough let's

[42:55] go back down the mountain and like it's

[42:58] like we're are we going to see anything

[43:00] beyond that level anytime soon any

[43:03] >> soon? No the 6090 I guess possibly yes

[43:06] but that's going to be some time away.

[43:09] Yeah someday.

[43:09] >> I don't know. It's just the it feels

[43:11] like the whole GPU situation is really

[43:14] strange right now and there isn't that

[43:17] much demand I think for new faster cards

[43:20] at the moment. Like they're they're

[43:23] already very fast for all software

[43:24] available. Um the prices are really

[43:28] really high. I I think at this point

[43:31] most gamers would be like well if I have

[43:33] cash for a better graphics card that

[43:36] probably already exists and I'll just

[43:37] put my money on that. You know what I

[43:39] mean?

[43:40] >> Yeah, I do think that the sentiment

[43:42] might be changing, John, because uh it's

[43:44] interesting you make that point that

[43:45] when the 5070 came out, you know, it was

[43:47] basically um it was it was badly

[43:51] reviewed because it wasn't that much

[43:53] better than a 4070 Super. Um and um

[43:57] obviously Nvidia made these crazy

[44:00] comparisons with the 4090 and uh that

[44:03] didn't work particularly well. However,

[44:06] the 5070, you know, it's it's a good

[44:09] card. I think you could do path tracing

[44:11] on it. You could do multi-frame

[44:13] generation. I could play Pragmata with

[44:14] path tracing at 1440p

[44:17] um you know, at like 160 frames pers.

[44:20] It's it's all right, you know. And I

[44:23] guess the fact is that when the 5070

[44:25] came out, you couldn't buy a 4070 Super

[44:28] anymore. So, the comparison there was

[44:30] kind of a bit strange. I think there's

[44:32] obviously a um push back against the

[44:35] fact that um raw performance hadn't

[44:37] improved. I think that's a valid point,

[44:39] right? But ultimately, if the scope of

[44:42] the requirements of games isn't actually

[44:44] changing either, then effectively it's a

[44:47] replacement product that's got some nice

[44:49] extra features, which you know is it's

[44:52] okay. I think if I was unable to play

[44:54] like uh great games on the 5070 or or,

[44:58] you know, I wasn't able to do path

[44:59] tracing on it, that'd be a different

[45:00] thing. But it's it's kind of been okay.

[45:03] Um let's move on to another question

[45:06] here. And um yeah, what can we say about

[45:09] this one? Spot asks um please can you

[45:13] summarize Intel and and Nvidia

[45:16] suspected collaboration

[45:19] and what this means for the future of

[45:21] Arc? Uh we're going back a while here,

[45:23] aren't we, Will? But um there is it's

[45:26] not a suspected collaboration. There is

[45:28] a collaboration between Nvidia and Intel

[45:30] and I believe Nvidia owns good chunk of

[45:33] Intel stock as a result of that

[45:35] collaboration. But it is potentially

[45:38] quite exciting what they're doing there,

[45:39] right?

[45:40] >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think the

[45:42] the core idea is that there will be an

[45:44] Intel SOC for like a laptop or a gaming

[45:47] handheld or whatever. And instead of an

[45:50] ARC graphics portion, it'll have an RTX

[45:52] graphics portion, which could be, you

[45:55] know, potentially uh more powerful,

[45:58] could have a higher top end. And

[46:00] probably the most important thing is it

[46:01] gets access to DLSS then, which is from

[46:04] what we've seen on the Switch 2 and from

[46:07] obviously just general PC gaming is the

[46:10] best uh upscaler package generally. So

[46:14] yeah, it's it's pretty exciting. It's

[46:16] interesting to think about potential

[46:18] products that could use this. Certainly,

[46:20] you know, Intel just launched their own

[46:22] gaming handhelds powered by ARC

[46:24] graphics, and we'll have to see how they

[46:26] do in terms of power and performance and

[46:29] everything else, but this kind of gives

[46:31] them another option for a co-branded

[46:33] device that is able to potentially hit

[46:35] higher performance levels and do so with

[46:37] better upscaling.

[46:38] >> Mhm. Yeah. What do you think about the

[46:40] future of Arc? Because um there have

[46:43] been lots of rumors as usual. I mean,

[46:45] seems to be like pretty much every few

[46:47] months there's a new rumor that Arc is

[46:49] in terms of its discrete graphics cards

[46:51] is a thing of the past, but then you see

[46:53] Panther Lake where you see a very very

[46:55] good integrated solution. What do you

[46:57] think is the future of Arc?

[47:00] >> Oh gosh, it's hard to say, right? I

[47:01] mean, I I get the idea that maybe Intel

[47:04] is a bit like Microsoft and there might

[47:06] be different factions within the company

[47:08] that see different paths for it.

[47:11] Um because you know certainly we have a

[47:14] lot of people that are genuinely seem to

[47:16] be really big fans of ARC internally and

[47:18] want it to do well and you know have

[47:20] plans for all these you know discrete

[47:22] graphics cards and mobile chips and

[47:24] everything else and the work that Intel

[47:27] engineers have done to you know make it

[47:29] a viable solution both discrete and in

[47:31] terms of uh you know laptop integrated

[47:34] has been you know really promising. So

[47:37] from that point of view, you would say

[47:39] that the Nvidia stuff is maybe, you

[47:42] know, just a contractual obligation or

[47:44] it's something that, you know, is not

[47:46] going to be the main thing going

[47:47] forwards. But I think it does give

[47:50] perhaps other factions within Intel that

[47:53] don't think that ARC is worth the

[47:54] investment a good kind of get out clause

[47:57] to say, "Ah, but we don't need to do our

[47:59] own things. We can just ask Nvidia, who

[48:02] are already really good at this, to just

[48:03] handle these things going forward." So

[48:06] yeah, it's obviously all kind of based

[48:08] on rumors. We don't really know what

[48:10] these first products that are um you

[48:13] know, combining these two uh Intel and

[48:16] Nvidia uh SOC's to you know, we don't

[48:20] know what they'll what they're going to

[48:21] look like and we'll have to wait until

[48:22] they're actually out and we can test

[48:23] them in terms of performance and

[48:25] features and everything else.

[48:26] >> But yeah, it's it's a complicated

[48:28] situation for sure. Yeah, I think you

[48:31] know ultimately it is just going to be

[48:33] um integrated processors with a Intel

[48:35] CPU and Nvidia GPU which sounds like you

[48:38] know um the scale of it could be

[48:41] relatively limited. It could be

[48:42] something bigger. I mean in the past

[48:44] Intel actually did a similar

[48:45] collaboration with AMD uh which was um

[48:49] very very very shortlived. you had like

[48:52] an Intel uh CPU and like a Vega GPU, not

[48:56] the Radeon 7, I'm afraid there, John

[48:59] Fury X,

[49:01] >> my favorite,

[49:03] >> but you know, potentially this could be

[49:04] really, really cool. um you know

[49:06] bringing those technologies together. I

[49:08] think it could be quite compelling from

[49:10] a gaming perspective maybe more

[49:12] compelling than the Windows on ARM stuff

[49:14] that Nvidia is pursuing at the moment

[49:16] because it bypasses the whole ARM

[49:18] situation and um Intel CPU cores are

[49:21] actually pretty good. Right.

[49:22] >> So, you know, potentially good stuff

[49:24] there. what it means for the future of

[49:26] ARC. I honestly think that's a separate

[49:28] discussion because you know um releasing

[49:31] a product with an Nvidia GPU doesn't

[49:33] mean that you know you you suddenly have

[49:36] access to Nvidia IP and um if Intel want

[49:39] to be competitive on the graphics front

[49:41] on the AI front they need good GPUs I

[49:44] don't think ARC is going away the

[49:46] consumerf facing side of it from gaming

[49:49] might change not really sure at the

[49:51] moment um what do you what do you make

[49:54] of this suspected collaboration, John.

[49:58] >> I mean, it seems not that different from

[50:01] uh what we've seen already with like,

[50:03] you know, laptops with Intel CPUs and

[50:06] Nvidia GPUs. I guess it's just would be

[50:09] an integration.

[50:10] >> Yeah.

[50:10] >> Uh this just feels like an a way to

[50:13] offer a high-end option while still

[50:15] leveraging Intel CPU cores because as we

[50:18] know, ARC doesn't really play in the

[50:20] high-end GPU market at all. So I think

[50:23] ARC would remain for now as a part of

[50:27] their mid to lower-end stack and you

[50:30] they could deploy Nvidia technology

[50:32] working together with them and higherend

[50:35] systems basically right. Um so that's

[50:39] basically the idea I guess and that

[50:41] sounds good to me.

[50:43] >> Um going to round off with a final quick

[50:45] question. Uh this one comes from KBAC.

[50:47] Uh, what do you think of the rumors of

[50:49] Sega supposedly working on a lowowered

[50:51] handheld akin to the Everade handhelds?

[50:54] Uh, have you heard any rumblings on the

[50:56] digital web or is this pure hogwash,

[50:59] John? Is it pure hogwash? Is there

[51:01] something of it, do you think?

[51:02] >> I don't know. I haven't heard anything

[51:04] about this rumor. Uh, that's interesting

[51:06] though because it may it's Evercade has

[51:11] quietly Blaze Entertainment. They have

[51:13] quietly carved themselves a weirdly

[51:15] successful little niche. Evercade

[51:18] devices are really cool. Like they're

[51:20] lowcost handheld units that play

[51:22] cartridge-based games. And they've now

[51:25] got like hundreds of games on that

[51:26] thing, including games that otherwise

[51:29] don't really have easily accessible

[51:31] physical versions at all. And just due

[51:34] to that low cost, it's just like a fun

[51:36] little system to collect for. And um it

[51:39] plays well. And some of the units have

[51:40] TV out. there's a console as well. Like

[51:43] it's just it's a it's a fun device and

[51:45] the price is low enough that it's

[51:48] managed to find that audience. So maybe

[51:50] something somebody like Sega sees that

[51:52] and says, "Hey, we could do that."

[51:53] Because unlike the mini consoles which

[51:55] are like locked down devices, this could

[51:58] be a way to sort of more easily bring

[52:02] their classic catalog back again

[52:05] somehow. But they've done that enough

[52:06] where I feel like they'd have to find

[52:09] some kind of spin to make this more

[52:11] interesting. I I don't know. And also

[52:15] like doing a handheld

[52:19] well to make it actually compelling is

[52:21] tricky in terms of screen quality,

[52:23] screen selection. Like if they just

[52:26] slapped like a 16x9 LCD of some sort

[52:28] like in there, that would be pretty

[52:30] crappy for for that, I have to say. Uh,

[52:33] but if they actually properly source

[52:35] like a good 4x3 panel, you know, they

[52:37] take care of the treatment correctly,

[52:39] something like what was in the Ambernick

[52:41] RG477M,

[52:44] a panel like that maybe too expensive

[52:46] for what they want to do would be pretty

[52:48] nuts. Uh, in a little dedicated handheld

[52:50] unit. So, I don't know if they're going

[52:52] to do it. I'd like to see them try

[52:54] something. I still have my Game Gear

[52:56] Mini, though, which or no, it's the Game

[52:58] Gear Micro. I don't know if you ever use

[53:00] one, Rich, but the screen it's like the

[53:01] size of a thumbnail. Like literally,

[53:03] it's very very small.

[53:05] >> Yeah. To which my question is why? I

[53:08] mean,

[53:08] >> it was just it was a fun it was a fun

[53:10] little toy in that case.

[53:12] >> Um I guess from my perspective, the

[53:14] question is like what kind of games do

[53:16] they want to run on it? Cuz I know the

[53:18] games that I really want to play and it

[53:20] would be like, you know, the Dreamcast

[53:21] and the Saturns, that sort of

[53:23] >> arcade games is what I would want.

[53:25] >> The arcade games. Yeah. You know, the

[53:26] model one, two, and three games. I mean,

[53:28] that would be awesome. a handheld with,

[53:30] you know, model one, two, and three

[53:32] titles on it would just be incredible.

[53:34] Um, it would,

[53:35] >> but, you know, all of that sort of

[53:37] custom hardware,

[53:39] how's the emulation on that could be a

[53:40] bit tricky. Uh, I don't know. Um, well,

[53:44] do you have any thoughts on this?

[53:46] >> Um, I don't have any thoughts on this

[53:47] particularly, but I just wanted to say

[53:49] that I already have the uh Sonic the

[53:51] Hedgehog mechanical keyboard.

[53:55] That

[53:55] >> our audio listeners can't see it, but he

[53:57] held that up and it is indeed very Sonic

[54:00] the Hedgehogy.

[54:01] >> Hold it up again. I want to see it. Just

[54:04] >> This is the show and tell portion of the

[54:05] show.

[54:06] >> Yeah.

[54:06] >> Yeah. Mhm.

[54:07] >> Wow. Okay. That's That's quite nice.

[54:10] >> This is made by High Ground. They also

[54:12] do a different design in black for uh

[54:15] you know, shadow obviously

[54:17] >> and they do various mouse pads and this

[54:18] is currently what is on my uh PC for

[54:21] testing purposes.

[54:22] >> Huh. I like it. Looks cool.

[54:24] >> Okay, good stuff.

[54:25] >> So, you know, if if they want to take

[54:27] any design notes from that, then, you

[54:29] know, get in touch.

[54:30] >> Fair enough. Okay, what a great way to

[54:32] end the show because that was indeed the

[54:33] last question. So, if you enjoyed it,

[54:35] please do like, subscribe, share, that

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