The Mental Frame & Specific Daily Actions to Succeed | Andy Stumpf

[00:00] Pick the choice as often as possible

[00:02] that is slightly more difficult. To me,

[00:04] it's the small stuff that nobody sees

[00:06] that makes the biggest difference in the

[00:08] world. Everybody knows the harder choice

[00:11] versus the easier choice.

[00:13] Everybody,

[00:15] to include myself,

[00:16] will look externally and say, "What do I

[00:19] need to do?"

[00:21] I know what I need to do, and so do

[00:22] they. They need to do the thing

[00:25] that even if it's microscopic, that they

[00:28] want to do less more often than they do

[00:30] the thing that they want to do more.

[00:31] Over time

[00:33] is the juice.

[00:34] >> Welcome to the Huberman Lab Podcast,

[00:36] where we discuss science [music]

[00:37] and science-based tools for everyday

[00:39] life.

[00:43] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor

[00:45] of neurobiology and ophthalmology at

[00:47] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest

[00:50] today is Andy Stumpf, a retired Navy

[00:52] SEAL and subsequently a member of the

[00:54] Red Bull High-Performance Team, where he

[00:56] was a wingsuiter, where they literally

[00:58] get into what some people call squirrel

[00:59] suits and fly. He set two world records

[01:02] wingsuiting, but today's discussion is

[01:04] not really prompted by his career in the

[01:06] military, nor his wingsuiting, although

[01:08] it does impact the discussion. Today's

[01:10] discussion was prompted by my reading of

[01:11] Andy's recent book called Drownproof.

[01:14] Now, there are a lot of books out there

[01:15] by former Navy SEALs, but upon reading

[01:17] it, I realized that this was a special

[01:19] book, and that Andy's experience and the

[01:21] lessons he shares, and most importantly

[01:22] the tools he shares, are both unique and

[01:25] indeed important for everyone to hear.

[01:27] For instance, he describes a tool in

[01:29] there that I now use every single week,

[01:31] which has allowed me and many other

[01:33] people, and I'm certain you, to separate

[01:35] out issues of concern versus issues of

[01:38] impact, meaning to allow you to actually

[01:40] be able to impact, perhaps not control,

[01:43] but certainly have an impact on certain

[01:45] things while ignoring the issues in life

[01:47] that distract you, that pull you into

[01:49] drama, and that can numb you out, and

[01:51] that essentially waste your life. Today,

[01:54] you'll learn what that exercise is and

[01:55] how to implement it in your life. You'll

[01:57] also learn a lot of other simple tools

[01:59] about how to take the slightly harder

[02:01] road in certain moments versus the

[02:03] easier road. You'll also learn from Andy

[02:05] about the most difficult things that he

[02:08] encountered in life and how he navigated

[02:10] them. And no, those weren't in the

[02:12] military nor wing suiting. It actually

[02:14] comes from his personal life, which he

[02:15] shares very candidly.

[02:17] And finally, we have a very serious and

[02:19] in many ways somewhat emotional

[02:21] discussion about suicide and mental

[02:23] health more generally. I do hope that

[02:25] that discussion will benefit all of you.

[02:27] I'm certainly we are certainly, I should

[02:29] say, very open to your input. That

[02:31] discussion, of course, raises more

[02:33] questions than it provides answers, but

[02:35] I think we can all agree that this is an

[02:37] extremely important and timely topic.

[02:39] The frequency of suicide is increasing

[02:41] significantly in all communities. So,

[02:44] for reasons related to the range and the

[02:46] nature of the specific topics that we

[02:48] discussed today, you're in for a very

[02:50] special episode. Thank you, Andy Stumpf.

[02:53] Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize

[02:55] podcast is separate from my teaching and

[02:57] research roles at Stanford. It is,

[02:58] however, part of my desire and effort to

[03:00] bring zero cost to consumer information

[03:02] about science and science-related tools

[03:04] to the general public. In keeping with

[03:06] that theme, today's episode does include

[03:08] sponsors. All right, my book is finally

[03:10] ready for release.

[03:12] Protocols, an operating manual for the

[03:14] human body, is coming out in 3 months.

[03:16] It's my first book and I've been working

[03:18] on it for many years now and it's really

[03:21] a reflection of decades of research and

[03:23] experience that came even prior to

[03:24] starting the book. My goal for this book

[03:26] is that it serves as an easy-to-use

[03:28] manual for dealing with any number of

[03:30] different pain points or performance

[03:31] goals that you might have in terms of

[03:33] mental health, physical health, and

[03:35] performance. It covers the science and

[03:37] most effective protocols for sleep,

[03:38] nutrition, exercise, focus learning and

[03:41] neuroplasticity, stress management, and

[03:43] much more. I'm super excited to share it

[03:45] with all of you. The launch date is

[03:47] September 15th. You can learn more about

[03:49] it or pre-order by going to

[03:50] protocolsbook.com.

[03:52] It's also available on amazon.com and

[03:55] I'm super excited that protocols is

[03:58] finally ready for release. And as

[04:00] always, thank you for your interest in

[04:02] science. And now for my discussion with

[04:04] Andy Stumpf. Andy Stumpf, welcome.

[04:07] >> Thank you for having me.

[04:09] >> I read your book, "Drownproof",

[04:11] recently.

[04:12] >> me nervous, by the way. Telling you that

[04:13] before we started. I've read it.

[04:15] >> [laughter]

[04:16] >> A lot of books including a lot of the

[04:18] quote-unquote seal books. It's awesome.

[04:20] I'll mention a few of the reasons why

[04:22] it's awesome, but I'll let people read

[04:23] it for themselves, but just to really

[04:26] get right to it, one of the practices

[04:29] that you describe in the book is

[04:31] something that I decided to do right

[04:33] away and I've been doing every week

[04:34] since I listened to it. Now granted, I

[04:35] just listened to the book a few weeks

[04:37] ago, so that means twice, but I found it

[04:39] to be tremendously useful not just

[04:41] during the exercise, but in the days

[04:43] that follow and it's really

[04:45] remapped a lot of what I would call my

[04:48] unhealthy tendencies and given me much

[04:52] more sense of agency and my days are are

[04:54] just going so much better. In fact, I

[04:56] was on time today for the first time in

[04:57] my life.

[04:58] >> Influence versus concern?

[04:59] >> Yes. So, could you describe this simple

[05:01] exercise because I'll tell you having

[05:04] having done it, it is immensely

[05:06] powerful. I only wish I had learned

[05:07] about it like in junior high school.

[05:10] >> Story of my life.

[05:12] >> Yeah. So, first off, not my creation.

[05:15] This is something I don't remember and I

[05:17] think I said this multiple times in the

[05:19] book because I want to be very clear

[05:20] that of basically taking ownership over

[05:23] nothing in that book because they're not

[05:24] my unique ideas. They were things that

[05:26] were taught to me

[05:27] that I'm trying to pass forward. So, I

[05:29] don't remember exactly where I first saw

[05:31] this, but the way it was first

[05:34] positioned to me was your circle or

[05:37] sphere of

[05:39] influence, which is very small, and your

[05:42] sphere of concern, which for most people

[05:44] to include myself is very large. So, if

[05:46] it was the size of this table, that

[05:48] would be your concern,

[05:50] the influence would be the size of a pin

[05:51] drop on the table. And the exercise is

[05:53] actually really simple. Take a standard

[05:55] piece of paper, draw a line down the

[05:56] middle,

[05:57] concern on one side, influence on the

[05:59] other, and you just take the time to

[06:00] write down the things that are occupying

[06:03] your waking hours. So, I don't know if

[06:04] you're anything like me,

[06:06] I try not to set an alarm unless I have

[06:08] something really pressing that day, but

[06:10] if I do wake up and my brain does

[06:11] revolution, I have to get out of bed

[06:13] because otherwise I'm staring at the

[06:14] ceiling in the bedroom.

[06:16] And

[06:18] if I have really sticky things in the

[06:20] morning, I'll I'll usually do this about

[06:22] once a month or once every 6 months now,

[06:24] but almost every time that thought will

[06:27] be on the left-hand side of the column.

[06:28] It's just a concern. But why is it

[06:30] preventing me from going back to sleep?

[06:32] Why can't I let go of it? And it's

[06:34] social media, the world that we all live

[06:36] in. It's things you can't control. It's

[06:38] just all the stuff that you spend your

[06:41] energy and effort focusing on. And then

[06:43] you go to the other side of that paper,

[06:45] and I'm still yet to find more than one

[06:48] thing that you can write down,

[06:50] and that's the direct influence that you

[06:51] have. And all you really can write on

[06:53] that is yourself. Now, you can you can

[06:55] trunch that out and say your thought

[06:56] process, the way you speak to yourself,

[06:58] the way you plan your day, the way you

[07:00] manage your time,

[07:01] but all that goes back into things you

[07:03] can actually directly control,

[07:05] which leads you

[07:07] to the realization or leads me to the

[07:09] realization that I have no control over

[07:12] what happens to me in my life, but I

[07:13] have absolute and complete and total

[07:15] control over how I respond to it. And I

[07:17] think that speaks to the agency piece.

[07:19] And it helps me, especially when I have

[07:21] those sticky thoughts,

[07:23] it helps me at least take a step back.

[07:25] I'm not going to say I'm perfect and I

[07:26] can put down a lot of the things that

[07:27] I'm concerned with, but it will identify

[07:29] for me a healthy or an unhealthy

[07:31] attachment to those things, and it does

[07:33] help me cross back over to

[07:35] okay, I understand that this is

[07:38] scary or concerning, but being scared or

[07:41] concerned about it doesn't impact

[07:42] outcome. Everything on the right-hand

[07:44] side of the paper does. So, that's what

[07:45] it does for me.

[07:47] Man, you want to talk about developing

[07:49] some more efficiencies? It's a great

[07:51] tool.

[07:51] It's startling how much is going to be

[07:53] on the left and how little is going to

[07:54] be on the right.

[07:55] >> Yeah, it's been a game-changer for me

[07:57] because and maybe I misinterpreted the

[08:00] exercise a little bit because on the

[08:02] right-hand side of the

[08:03] page, I've been listing out the things

[08:07] that I can control and the things that I

[08:08] can do with my time.

[08:10] >> Listen, it goes back to you controlling

[08:11] the management of your time. That's

[08:12] totally fine. And with all these tools,

[08:15] I don't think there is a wrong answer.

[08:16] If it has the impact that you're looking

[08:18] for, again, you could titrate all that

[08:20] back up to you controlling yourself and

[08:22] what you do with your time. I think it's

[08:23] perfect.

[08:24] >> Yeah, again, just an awesome exercise. I

[08:26] really encourage everyone to do it. For

[08:29] me, once a week has been very helpful.

[08:31] And it just pops to mind anytime I'm

[08:34] thinking like I saw something in the

[08:35] news yesterday and and you start going

[08:37] down these rabbit holes and you're like,

[08:38] "Wait, what am I doing?"

[08:39] >> Yeah.

[08:39] >> They're like, "What am I doing?" And and

[08:40] we can blame the algorithms, we can

[08:42] blame the world, but ultimately, yeah,

[08:44] you know, it's you know, once you

[08:46] realize that you're being manipulated, I

[08:48] think the obligation is to not follow

[08:50] that that path.

[08:51] >> is real. I don't know what it means.

[08:52] I've listened to people argue about it

[08:54] ad nauseam, but I have the choice as to

[08:56] whether or not I interface with the

[08:57] algorithm. And that's where the power

[08:59] That's what I think the algorithm is

[09:01] trying to do is figure out a way to take

[09:02] that power away from you and put it back

[09:05] into their hands, but it's optional.

[09:07] >> You learned this some years ago.

[09:09] >> Yes.

[09:10] >> In the teens.

[09:10] >> Yes.

[09:11] >> But you still do it now about once a

[09:12] month.

[09:13] >> Mhm.

[09:14] Yeah. [clears throat]

[09:14] >> it around with you?

[09:15] >> If you're anything like me, I spend a

[09:16] lot of time on airplanes. It's a really

[09:18] good time to occupy yourself with

[09:19] something that is, for me at least,

[09:21] productive as opposed to just tuning out

[09:22] and watching YouTube videos of sovereign

[09:24] citizens get arrested, which is one of

[09:26] my favorite pastimes.

[09:27] I highly recommend people get into it.

[09:29] >> These are the people that that say you

[09:31] can't arrest me, I'm a sovereign

[09:33] citizen.

[09:33] >> travel.

[09:34] >> Right to travel.

[09:35] >> the right, which they do have the right

[09:36] to travel, but you can't

[09:37] >> right to drive without a driver's

[09:38] license in all 50 states.

[09:40] >> Are they out there testing the law or

[09:42] are they hoping that they'll get, you

[09:44] know, flagged and and there'll be a

[09:46] video so they can promote the sovereign

[09:48] citizen thing or they or they just

[09:49] really into being sovereign citizens and

[09:51] living their lives?

[09:53] >> I think some of them fall into the first

[09:54] category and I think some of them

[09:56] actually just legitimately believe.

[09:58] >> Okay.

[09:59] >> And they

[10:00] There's amazing things on the internet.

[10:02] You shouldn't believe all of them.

[10:04] >> Right.

[10:05] >> [laughter]

[10:06] >> Maybe even most of them.

[10:07] >> That's a fair point, actually. The vast

[10:09] majority of things you should take, I

[10:10] think, with a large dose of scrutiny on

[10:12] the internet.

[10:13] >> We're about the same age. So, late 40s

[10:16] for you, 50 for me. I was thinking about

[10:18] this in light of this concern versus

[10:20] influence exercise, which is, you know,

[10:23] that they created these like 10 and 20

[10:25] and 30-year high school reunion things.

[10:27] I think for the reason that you have the

[10:29] choice to go back and learn about what

[10:32] people are doing and

[10:33] who's

[10:34] still married, who's still alive, who's

[10:36] thriving or what whatever. Whatever the

[10:38] reason is, we have these things called

[10:40] reunions. But with social media,

[10:43] there's this opportunity to be

[10:44] constantly aware of everybody you grew

[10:46] up with, them of you, people you knew 5

[10:48] years ago in a job that you no longer

[10:50] think about. So,

[10:52] I feel like that left column now has

[10:53] grown tremendously, regardless of

[10:55] somebody's age, the opportunity to be

[10:57] aware of so many more things, not just

[11:00] distant in other countries and other

[11:03] other issues entirely, but like our past

[11:05] lives are very much like anchored to us

[11:08] now, unless we really

[11:10] literally draw that line and and sever

[11:12] from all that stuff. Cuz like, as much

[11:14] as I wish the best for all my classmates

[11:16] and all these people in graduate school

[11:17] and like, it it really a lot of it

[11:21] should not occupy one's mind.

[11:23] >> Do you ever wonder whether social media

[11:25] itself is making it harder to do this

[11:26] exercise?

[11:27] >> I think it could be. Do you know who

[11:29] Chad Wright is?

[11:30] >> Yes. I know of him and we've

[11:31] corresponded a little bit.

[11:33] >> He is

[11:35] hilarious.

[11:35] >> You want to we should probably describe

[11:37] a He does the same type of stuff that

[11:38] Goggins does. He's an endurance athlete,

[11:41] long red beard. I call him the Forrest

[11:43] Gump of the SEAL Teams, to his face, so

[11:44] I'm comfortable saying it. He's amazing.

[11:46] I've had him on the show a couple times.

[11:48] Knew him when we were in the Teams

[11:49] together.

[11:50] And he came on the show on my show in

[11:52] November.

[11:54] And I don't know how [clears throat] we

[11:54] started talking about it, but it was

[11:55] this conversation around screen time.

[11:58] It's like, all right, bud,

[11:59] >> [clears throat]

[11:59] >> let's pull the phones out. Let's see

[12:00] what we got.

[12:02] It's not awesome. I think it was 4 and

[12:03] 1/2 hours.

[12:05] So, we decided that in January of this

[12:07] year we're going to try to drive our

[12:08] screen time per day to under an hour for

[12:10] total phone usage. I think phone calls

[12:13] we were able to strip out of that.

[12:14] >> [gasps]

[12:15] >> I think the closest he got was about 90

[12:17] minutes. And then the last week of

[12:18] January for me I got mine down to 30

[12:20] minutes. Now, for clarity, I was still

[12:22] doing a lot of the stuff that I was

[12:24] doing on my phone, but I forced it over

[12:25] to my laptop, which was a really

[12:27] interesting experience because it's way

[12:29] less sticky on that platform. So,

[12:32] Instagram on your laptop sucks. [snorts]

[12:35] It It's not intuitive. The things that

[12:37] you would normally just do with your

[12:38] thumb, they don't exist, so you end up

[12:39] closing your laptop up. So, I'd get on

[12:41] there, post what I wanted to, and then

[12:42] just leave.

[12:44] My mental health was better in January

[12:46] than it had been in a long time.

[12:48] So, I 100% think that social media is

[12:52] not only designed to suck up as much as

[12:55] that left-hand

[12:57] portion of the your list as possible,

[12:59] but again, it it's it's it's optional. I

[13:02] mean,

[13:03] you create content, you have a massive

[13:05] platform. I create content, we can

[13:07] easily tell ourselves we have to exist

[13:10] on these platforms, which to a degree we

[13:11] do. The question I ask myself is, is the

[13:14] platform working for me, or am I working

[13:16] for it? And that's the healthy

[13:18] relationship. And I think actually that

[13:19] goes right back to that exercise. Am I

[13:21] targeting what I do with my time and

[13:23] being efficient with it, and then moving

[13:24] on, or am I just getting stuck into this

[13:27] thumb scroll of death, which is right

[13:28] before bed. I've heard you say it's the

[13:29] best time to have electronic device

[13:31] light.

[13:32] Yeah, [laughter] real bright in a dark

[13:34] room.

[13:34] >> Right before bed, right?

[13:35] >> really want to maximize, make sure you

[13:37] do it first thing in the morning, too,

[13:38] and don't get outside and look at the

[13:40] sun. Yeah. But it's so sticky. I'm

[13:43] telling you when I hopped over to my

[13:44] laptop, at first I couldn't even figure

[13:47] out how to post a picture. And it's so

[13:50] clunky and so not intuitive that you

[13:52] don't want to play with it.

[13:53] >> Are you still there now?

[13:55] >> Oh no, I went right back to using my

[13:56] thumb.

[13:57] >> What's Chad doing now with his social

[13:59] media? Is he still

[14:00] >> He's probably doubled it.

[14:01] >> He said the same thing, too, by the way.

[14:03] Man, this is amazing.

[14:05] >> We should do this more often.

[14:06] >> And just right back to being on your

[14:07] thumb again by probably March.

[14:09] >> So what's mind-boggling about this is,

[14:11] and you'll tell me no, we're just

[14:13] ordinary people who were trained to do

[14:14] extraordinary things, but you know, SEAL

[14:16] SEAL selection, you know, pairs down,

[14:18] you know, for every 100 guys, you know,

[14:20] maybe 15 get through, maybe 10, you

[14:22] know, consistently, right? Discipline is

[14:25] certainly a piece of that. Resilience,

[14:26] mental toughness, you know, what

[14:27] whatever language you want to throw at

[14:29] it. You have that, Chad has that. You

[14:31] guys were weaned in that, you were

[14:32] forged in that. Then you do high-risk,

[14:34] high-consequence work, right? And on

[14:37] minimal sleep, et cetera, et cetera, and

[14:39] here are two guys challenging each other

[14:41] to spend less time on social media,

[14:45] accomplish it by virtue of competition.

[14:47] Okay, cool. And then you say revert.

[14:49] What does that say, not about SEALs,

[14:52] >> [laughter]

[14:52] >> what does that say about the platforms?

[14:53] Cuz I mean, think about the rest of the

[14:55] world.

[14:55] >> says everything you need to know about

[14:57] the platform. The fact that you can like

[14:59] you just said, you can recognize all of

[15:01] those things. You can both text each

[15:03] other back and forth in your limited

[15:04] phone usage for the day. Man, this is

[15:06] awesome. And 60 days later you're back

[15:08] to the same behavior that led you to the

[15:11] November-December conversation.

[15:13] That's all you need to know about the

[15:14] platforms.

[15:15] >> Okay, I I have to drill into this. This

[15:17] is not where I thought we would

[15:18] >> [laughter]

[15:18] >> we would go first, but but it gets right

[15:20] to the heart of discipline and

[15:21] self-control versus influence and time

[15:23] and and time is everything. When you are

[15:25] on a social media platform and you're

[15:26] scrolling away, are you aware of the

[15:28] time that's drifting away from you?

[15:30] >> Yes.

[15:31] >> Are you thinking, "Why am I doing this,

[15:34] but I feel compelled to do it?"

[15:35] >> Almost always.

[15:36] >> oblivious? Is it like being drunk, where

[15:37] you don't you you're not thinking about

[15:39] the the the fact that you shouldn't be

[15:41] doing it until you sober up?

[15:42] >> I'm aware. I am aware that it's not

[15:44] healthy, and I will actually sometimes

[15:47] I don't know if you're like this. I talk

[15:48] to myself out loud. I Somebody from the

[15:50] outside would probably think I'm a

[15:51] psychopath. But uh I would I will say to

[15:53] myself, "Why why are you doing this?

[15:55] This doesn't feel good."

[15:57] And just

[15:58] for hours.

[15:59] >> Not for an hour. An hour. 4 to 5

[16:01] minutes.

[16:01] >> go that far. I I would I would feel as

[16:03] if I needed to take a shower if I went

[16:05] that far. But if I have 15 minutes,

[16:08] >> Mhm.

[16:08] >> man, it's it's enticing.

[16:10] >> Mhm.

[16:11] >> And I don't know what it is about it. I

[16:13] mean, I don't feel joyful after doing

[16:15] it. I try not to compare myself to other

[16:17] people. Good luck being on the internet

[16:18] and doing that.

[16:20] I try not to get caught in the the

[16:22] negativity aspect of it because I can I

[16:24] recognize the negativity bias in myself,

[16:26] where you'll get 99 like, "This is

[16:29] amazing." and one guy's like, "You kind

[16:30] of suck." and you're just like, "You

[16:31] mother

[16:32] That's [laughter and clears throat] the

[16:33] only comment you pay attention to.

[16:34] >> the brain is is uh wired for to identify

[16:38] those outliers.

[16:39] >> So, I refuse to be mean on social media.

[16:40] I won't make negative comments. Um what

[16:43] Don't get me wrong. You can insult

[16:44] people by not being mean.

[16:45] Just have to work your way around it,

[16:47] and it takes a little bit longer. But uh

[16:49] I know it's not healthy. I know I could

[16:51] do

[16:53] anything other than that time and be

[16:55] more productive and maybe move my life

[16:57] just a little bit in the direction I

[16:58] want to,

[16:59] but I don't.

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[20:11] >> I've got a theory that I'm just going to

[20:12] share

[20:13] >> Please.

[20:13] >> that I've been thinking about a lot

[20:14] lately

[20:15] having just spent some time with let's

[20:17] just say one of the major providers of

[20:20] online content. It's not a social media

[20:22] platform.

[20:23] So, I have this theory that unlike being

[20:26] drunk

[20:27] or doing

[20:29] drugs of any kind, opioids or or or

[20:32] amphetamines or something where people

[20:33] exit the state of of intoxication and

[20:36] and they realize like, "Oh my god, like

[20:37] that was a huge waste of my time, my

[20:39] life. I made these mistakes, etc."

[20:42] Being on social media is different

[20:44] because

[20:45] there's this awareness that we're on

[20:47] there and we probably could or should be

[20:49] doing something else often.

[20:51] And I have this theory that it's the

[20:53] perfect addiction

[20:55] because

[20:57] it's what I would call low resolution

[20:59] enough that it doesn't occupy all of

[21:02] your mind. Like when people are really

[21:03] intoxicated, they're not thinking about

[21:04] the fact that they shouldn't be

[21:05] intoxicated. That's the state they're

[21:06] trying to achieve. This is a state that

[21:08] people come out of and report. There are

[21:10] data on this. They go, "Yeah, it didn't

[21:11] feel good being on there for the last 45

[21:13] minutes or 30 minutes or I feel like I

[21:15] wasted a lot of time." So, they're aware

[21:17] of that even while they're doing it.

[21:18] Very unusual for addictions, right? Most

[21:21] addictions fall into the category of

[21:22] trying to erase the sense of time, lose

[21:25] themselves in the activity, forget the

[21:27] trauma if you think it's trauma related

[21:28] just forget everything else and just be

[21:30] in this moment. Gamblers will say this,

[21:32] right? It's that zone they they crave so

[21:34] much. This is different. Doesn't feel

[21:36] really good. You're aware that you're

[21:37] not supposed to be doing it quite like

[21:39] that or that much.

[21:41] So, I actually think it's it's the

[21:42] quote-unquote ultimate addiction because

[21:45] it's low-resolution enough that your

[21:47] brain circuits can get attached to it

[21:49] and keep doing it while you're

[21:50] monitoring yourself.

[21:52] And yet you can run these two tracks at

[21:55] the same time. So, you're not getting

[21:57] absorbed and coming out of it and going,

[21:58] "Oh my god, I didn't study for my final

[22:00] exam. Oh my goodness, I didn't pick up

[22:02] the kids from school." It's just

[22:04] low-resolution enough that you can still

[22:06] kind of tend to the the kids, kind of be

[22:08] in a conversation, sort of be on the

[22:10] Zoom, sort of like and

[22:12] >> Kind of still be driving your car.

[22:13] >> your life doesn't totally fall apart.

[22:15] Exactly. And so, in some ways because

[22:17] it's not so extreme, I think that's

[22:19] actually one of the problems. The other

[22:21] problem is of course our brains can but

[22:24] are not really designed to be split into

[22:25] these, you know, two different

[22:26] activities for for terribly long. It's

[22:29] not just an inability to multitask. I

[22:30] actually think that low-resolution thing

[22:32] is to you can kind of do it while you're

[22:33] doing other things.

[22:34] >> Yeah.

[22:35] >> So, I'm just this is something that I

[22:36] actually want some laboratories to look

[22:38] at.

[22:38] >> Where does that lead if left unchecked?

[22:40] >> Well, for you and for me, the

[22:42] consequences are different and

[22:45] probably less immediate because we've

[22:46] already built our careers. There's the

[22:49] social detriment, you know,

[22:50] relationships to family and stuff that

[22:52] undoubtedly suffer somewhat, right? But

[22:54] they're doing it, too, right? So,

[22:55] there's that. I do worry now I really

[22:57] sound like I'm in my 50s like about the

[22:59] younger generation because

[23:01] I don't know whether I would have been

[23:03] able to escape this tunnel

[23:05] >> Yeah.

[23:06] >> had these devices been around. So, I

[23:08] think that otherwise incredible

[23:10] accomplishments and human beings and

[23:12] careers and families and everything in

[23:14] between, art and music is literally not

[23:17] going to be made. I fear this much more

[23:20] than I fear AI, to be honest.

[23:22] Yeah, I much, much more.

[23:24] >> Yeah.

[23:24] >> In terms of taking away jobs and taking

[23:26] away careers, I think that because it's

[23:29] it's I'll tell you this, I am confident

[23:31] that it is way, way

[23:33] worse than the than the quote-unquote

[23:35] opioid crisis, which was already

[23:37] terrible.

[23:38] >> I think we're going to be okay. So, I

[23:39] have three data points, which happen to

[23:41] be my children.

[23:42] >> Mhm.

[23:42] >> So, almost 18, almost 21, almost 23. My

[23:46] middle son has got it dialed.

[23:48] He's going to college in Bozeman. I

[23:50] think he's getting ready to start his

[23:51] junior year in mechanical engineering.

[23:52] He's doing an internship at a quantum

[23:55] computing laboratory.

[23:56] I don't know what that means. He tries

[23:58] to tell me, I'm like, he just talk to my

[24:01] wife.

[24:01] >> It's super cool stuff.

[24:02] >> He made a robotic hand. Of course, the

[24:04] first way he tested it was a middle

[24:05] finger, which I deeply, deeply

[24:07] appreciate.

[24:08] >> He is your son.

[24:09] >> 100%. He

[24:11] exists on social media.

[24:12] He downloads the app once per week,

[24:15] spends an hour on it,

[24:17] erases it.

[24:18] Because

[24:20] it's the pendulum going the other

[24:21] direction for him.

[24:22] >> Mhm.

[24:23] >> My oldest keeps it on his phone, but

[24:26] uses it very sporadically, and it's

[24:28] almost at least

[24:29] uh the middle one is going to be 21, the

[24:30] other one's going to be 23.

[24:32] My oldest now is almost at the point,

[24:34] and I think his peer group is almost at

[24:35] the point a little bit of mocking people

[24:38] who spend You know what I mean? It's

[24:40] almost now it's almost almost on the

[24:41] other side like, "Oh,

[24:43] you're one of those." Even though they

[24:44] were raised with electronic devices in

[24:46] their hand. My daughter, on the other

[24:47] hand,

[24:48] surgically connected to her hand

[24:51] and is constantly consuming. So, I I she

[24:55] will get there as well, too, because

[24:57] when I can kind of pull her out of that

[24:58] digital world or we go places that have

[25:01] less than optimal cell coverage

[25:02] intentionally and somehow the Wi-Fi

[25:05] doesn't show up cuz dad unplugs the

[25:07] router but like, "Oh, there's no Wi-Fi

[25:08] at the house. That sucks."

[25:10] She can see the light, but my other two

[25:11] as they've gotten a little bit older,

[25:13] they have they have seen it and found it

[25:15] on their own. And I I think we're going

[25:17] to be okay because I think that

[25:19] generation now is really

[25:22] viewing these platforms with a little

[25:23] bit more of a wary eye.

[25:25] >> Mhm.

[25:25] >> And I don't know why. But my middle son

[25:27] was the first one he just was like,

[25:29] "Nope, this is what I do. I'm on there

[25:30] for an hour. It's 100% for memes for

[25:33] him." And then he just deletes the

[25:35] thing. Great.

[25:36] >> No, I'm I'm I'm very reassured by by

[25:38] what you just said.

[25:39] >> That's at that a point of three though.

[25:40] So

[25:41] >> Well, it's interesting because that the

[25:42] data on for instance um smoking in

[25:45] teens, like when we were growing up a

[25:47] lot of people smoked, young people

[25:48] smoked you know that

[25:49] >> That'd be your first act of rebellion.

[25:51] >> There were all these campaigns to try

[25:52] and get young people to quit smoking and

[25:54] they did not work. It's going to give

[25:55] you lung cancers. This is your lungs

[25:57] after smoke None of that worked. What

[25:59] worked was the ad campaign that had

[26:01] these old white dudes

[26:04] cackling and talking about all the money

[26:06] they were going to make on these young

[26:08] kids smoking. So the rebellion of youth

[26:10] if you leverage it against the big

[26:11] industry platforms,

[26:13] no one likes to be manipulated. But when

[26:15] kids realize and teens realize that

[26:18] they're being manipulated, they'll push

[26:20] back in a way that can be really good

[26:22] for them, which is a little bit of what

[26:24] what we're hearing here. So So you know

[26:26] >> As a parent I can tell you they push

[26:27] back in ways

[26:28] super hard. Maybe almost pendulum the

[26:30] other way. I tell you what they're also

[26:32] pushing back on in my all three of their

[26:34] generation, alcohol consumption.

[26:37] Damn. Don't get me wrong.

[26:40] They

[26:41] there's a time and place for everything.

[26:43] We go to a yearly jiu-jitsu retreat in

[26:45] Costa Rica.

[26:47] The drinking age is 18.

[26:49] One of my sons is in college like I

[26:51] said. It's an interesting watching those

[26:52] two.

[26:54] That might be the only singular time

[26:56] they drink in an entire year. That was

[26:59] the opposite of me growing up and the

[27:01] the culture of the first community I

[27:03] went into.

[27:04] It is wild

[27:05] to see the push in the other direction.

[27:08] And now I talk peptides or

[27:11] it's my middle son. I told him I was

[27:13] coming here. He was just like, "Oh, I'll

[27:14] ask him what I need to be doing for

[27:15] sleep optimization." I'm like, "Oh my

[27:16] [laughter] god." Happy to send it to

[27:18] him. That's his generation.

[27:19] >> Mhm.

[27:20] >> I was not I think I started looking at

[27:22] sleep optimization about last Thursday.

[27:25] You know, it just wasn't the thing that

[27:26] we were looking at. So, I actually

[27:29] as much as my children, I truly believe

[27:31] children are just designed to sharpen

[27:32] their teeth on the parents' bones. I

[27:34] also have a lot of faith on the next

[27:36] wave coming through.

[27:38] >> This is not a question I ever thought I

[27:39] would ask on this podcast as somebody

[27:40] who did an episode on alcohol that got

[27:43] some reach and got people rethinking

[27:45] whether or not they wanted to drink. And

[27:47] I should just quickly say

[27:48] the major response to that was one of

[27:51] three different um types. One was, "I

[27:53] don't like drinking and now I can

[27:55] justify not drinking." There were a lot

[27:56] of people who felt that they had to

[27:57] drink and now they had a justification

[27:59] not to. Other people who said, "Wow, I

[28:01] didn't realize that, you know, it can

[28:03] increase breast cancer risk or, you

[28:04] know, we have cancers in our family and

[28:06] that's a real thing." It's, you know,

[28:07] class one carcinogen, etc. And then the

[28:09] third category like, "You know, I wish

[28:11] you hadn't told me this information. I

[28:12] really enjoyed drinking and now my

[28:13] friends don't want to drink with me."

[28:14] Fair and I don't tell people what to do

[28:16] and I, you know, etc. But

[28:19] I have to ask do you think that your

[28:21] kids and their generation are possibly

[28:23] missing out by virtue of, you know, not

[28:28] drinking at all?

[28:29] >> That's a fantastic question. I mean, it

[28:31] is a social lubricant

[28:32] >> Mhm.

[28:33] >> for a degree. I was probably

[28:35] and still am antisocial in large crowds.

[28:38] Is there an aspect of that where it

[28:40] legitimately helped me not necessarily

[28:42] feel more comfortable, but maybe get out

[28:44] of my own way when I was younger?

[28:46] Yes.

[28:47] Did it lead to some bad decisions along

[28:50] the way?

[28:51] Yes. Did bad decisions and those

[28:54] consequences shape the human being that

[28:56] I would become along the way?

[28:59] Yes.

[29:00] I don't know where it it where it lands.

[29:03] I do think that there is a chance

[29:06] that yes, they are missing out on I'm

[29:08] not maybe not formative life

[29:10] experiences, but important life

[29:13] experiences.

[29:14] >> I think that the camera phones are a big

[29:16] concern with drinking now because people

[29:18] are so worried about becoming

[29:20] less inhibited and

[29:22] maybe not even saying or doing the wrong

[29:23] thing, but even things as trivial as

[29:25] like not everyone is an awesome dancer.

[29:27] They can get filmed, it can get posted,

[29:29] they can get teased, there's social

[29:30] shame. The other problem is that

[29:33] many, many people are awesome at certain

[29:35] things and those are the things that

[29:36] tend to be high amplitude also, and so

[29:38] people feel like they, you know, if

[29:40] they're going to be seen online, they

[29:41] have to be in some in impressive form.

[29:44] So, I don't really know. I I do worry

[29:47] about the cannabis thing because I'm not

[29:48] anti-cannabis, but I do think given a

[29:51] couple drinks a week versus smoking weed

[29:55] in terms of like the the overall

[29:57] risk-benefit,

[29:58] >> Yeah.

[29:58] >> alcohol seems less risky to me, but the

[30:00] the can Yeah, I think so. I mean, look,

[30:02] there are high high performers and

[30:04] people who can use cannabis and they're

[30:06] like not a problem.

[30:07] Young males in particular who have a

[30:09] predisposition to psychosis or bipolar

[30:12] disorder,

[30:13] >> Yeah.

[30:13] >> some of them smoke high potency weed or

[30:16] even low potency weed and they never

[30:18] come back from the psychotic episode. I

[30:20] know a lot of examples of that and

[30:23] that's in the data now. So,

[30:26] alcohol, yeah, you can drive off a

[30:27] cliff, you can run somebody over, you

[30:29] can say or do something really, really

[30:30] stupid, but assuming those things don't

[30:31] happen, the the immediate risks and

[30:35] long-term consequences of like

[30:37] having a having a couple beers or a

[30:39] couple drinks or maybe even a few more,

[30:42] try to get home safe. You don't say or

[30:44] do anything stupid like

[30:45] >> Yeah.

[30:45] >> You're not going to make yourself

[30:46] psychotic.

[30:47] >> I'm kind of in the same boat that you

[30:48] are. I'm not here to tell people how to

[30:49] live their life. I do think that they

[30:51] should pay attention to the risk versus

[30:52] reward. You know, live your life how you

[30:54] want. Your choices are going to have

[30:56] potential consequences and some of those

[30:57] can be pretty big.

[30:58] There's some things I deeply regret

[31:00] about my expressions of being a human

[31:02] being when I was drinking when I was

[31:04] younger.

[31:05] And there are some things

[31:07] that I feel like my life would be

[31:09] completely different without and that I

[31:10] would never want to give those

[31:11] experiences back.

[31:12] >> Mhm.

[31:13] >> I don't know how you table that though.

[31:16] This is a fascinating conver-

[31:18] >> Didn't know we were going to go here.

[31:19] >> It's I mean I

[31:21] In my own life, I wouldn't give up those

[31:24] experiences.

[31:25] >> Mhm.

[31:26] >> But I also don't feel comfortable saying

[31:28] you have to drink to have them.

[31:30] >> Mhm.

[31:31] >> I don't know what the difference looks

[31:32] like though. Maybe later on as you grow

[31:35] into your I mean, I'm a more confident

[31:36] person now absent alcohol than I was a

[31:39] more confident person younger absent

[31:41] alcohol. So maybe time will help you get

[31:43] to this places where you could take

[31:44] those actions where you needed that

[31:46] social lubricant. But maybe not. I don't

[31:48] know man.

[31:49] >> Well, it's like sleep is super important

[31:50] and I think it's great for everyone,

[31:52] especially young people to understand

[31:53] just how great they can feel and

[31:55] mentally and physically perform when

[31:57] they're well rested. I think it's also

[31:59] an important, not just right of passage,

[32:01] but experience to know just how terrible

[32:02] you can feel after a night of no sleep

[32:05] and still go take a midterm exam or go

[32:08] for the run you were supposed to go for.

[32:09] Not because it's quote unquote the best

[32:11] thing for you, but just because how do

[32:13] you explore the outer margins of your

[32:15] capacity unless you know

[32:17] how feeling really great feels and how

[32:21] let's just say not lousy, but how like

[32:24] minimally good you can feel and still

[32:26] complete something while you're

[32:27] completely crushed. Like I mean, like

[32:30] after a breakup, after two or three

[32:32] nights of poor sleep, in a very

[32:33] stressful time, not having eaten

[32:35] perfectly. Like

[32:36] it's good to understand what a workout

[32:38] or what going to class and forcing

[32:39] yourself to stay awake or having a hard

[32:41] conversation with your significant other

[32:43] feels like when it's like the the last

[32:45] thing your body wants you to do. I think

[32:47] there's utility there. You know, it's

[32:49] kind of like the ice bath of of mental

[32:50] experiences right?

[32:52] >> Are you a fan of the ice bath?

[32:53] >> I am and

[32:55] >> What temperature?

[32:56] >> Cold. I It's on

[32:57] >> 34?

[32:58] >> It's on Rogan I said, you know, low 50s

[33:00] and he he like he was shocked and

[33:02] dismayed. He looked He seemed It was

[33:04] like an older brother or guy you respect

[33:07] looking at you like, "Oh man, should we

[33:08] even continue this podcast?" I was like

[33:10] >> I thought I knew you.

[33:11] >> And I quickly went to Yeah, but I go

[33:13] into the sauna at 220° F, you know,

[33:15] which I do. I'm very heat tolerant, not

[33:16] as cold tolerant. I like to do cold

[33:19] shower, cold plunge or or whatever.

[33:21] Like, you know, low 40s now.

[33:23] >> All right.

[33:23] >> To me there's nothing as reliable and

[33:27] provided you don't like jump into an ice

[33:28] hole or something stupid like that or

[33:29] do, you know, hyperventilation breathing

[33:31] and then jump into cold water which has

[33:33] killed people.

[33:34] >> Yeah.

[33:34] >> don't do that, I I don't know of

[33:36] anything that is both safe and reliably

[33:38] can give you that adrenaline spike in a

[33:40] way that you can start to learn to work

[33:42] with what it's like to be in a highly

[33:44] adrenalized state. I think there's just

[33:46] value in having your but body flooded

[33:49] with adrenaline somewhat against your

[33:51] will but you're controlling some of it

[33:53] and learning I think it's a great space

[33:55] to explore

[33:57] Okay, do I distract myself? Do I lean

[33:59] into it? Like you can you can explore a

[34:01] lot of your own consciousness in these

[34:03] high arousal states and I do think

[34:05] there's carryover. And yes, there's a

[34:07] nice long wave of dopamine that lasts

[34:09] many hours, that's known. There's a nice

[34:10] long wave of adrenaline. But

[34:13] yeah, I think it's a great training

[34:14] tool. If you don't want to do it

[34:16] immediately after resistance training

[34:17] cuz it can

[34:19] it can reduce some of the the the quote

[34:20] unquote gains you would get because it

[34:22] it it vasoconstricts. You want blood

[34:24] flow. You want to perfuse the muscles in

[34:25] order to you know, get get the strength

[34:28] and hypertrophy

[34:29] benefits from in training but it

[34:30] provided you do it before or on off days

[34:34] or 6 hours after you resistance train, I

[34:35] think it's a really valuable tool.

[34:38] >> What protocol would you use? I like to

[34:39] have my cold plunge at about 80. What

[34:42] would you do? Like 10 in, five out,

[34:43] couple times?

[34:44] >> 80° Fahrenheit. It's great.

[34:46] >> I can bump it to 85 if you think that's

[34:48] a little too low.

[34:50] >> You know, team guys have this advantage

[34:51] that they did all that so they can be

[34:53] like, I did it, I don't want to do it,

[34:54] right? That's kind of like I went

[34:55] through that.

[34:57] >> It's like the people who are sleep

[34:57] deprived in medical school. They're

[34:59] like, yeah, I don't do that anymore. I

[35:00] get it. Like you guys suffered enough.

[35:02] When I went down to Jocko's, he he

[35:04] specifically had me do a heat cold

[35:06] protocol because I like to do three

[35:08] rounds of each.

[35:09] >> Okay.

[35:09] >> You know, heat at somewhere about, you

[35:11] know, 210, 215, maybe as high as 220. It

[35:13] was just hot, but I'm pretty heat

[35:14] tolerant.

[35:15] >> For how long?

[35:15] >> That'll be 20 minutes and then go into

[35:17] the You don't want to start right off

[35:19] with that, right? And then go into the

[35:20] cold. And so

[35:22] they packed the sauna, they cranked that

[35:24] thing up, and they kept resetting the

[35:26] clock.

[35:27] And literally, he'll tell you, I was

[35:29] down on the

[35:30] >> floor where it's you know, not cool, but

[35:32] it's still

[35:32] >> colder. Heat rises, obviously. And his

[35:34] daughters, they were laughing, his

[35:36] family, and then so everyone in there,

[35:38] young and old, male and female, was just

[35:40] laughing at me. So, he has what he calls

[35:42] the factory reset protocol, which is

[35:44] where you don't know how hot or how long

[35:45] you're going to be in there, and you

[35:46] don't know how cold or how long you're

[35:47] going to be in there. And that We'll

[35:49] talk about this a little bit about time,

[35:51] but I don't know. If you don't like the

[35:52] cold, you don't have to do it, but I do

[35:54] think most people can really benefit

[35:55] from it.

[35:56] >> I'm saying

[35:58] I'll develop a protocol for 80.

[36:00] The sauna will be at

[36:02] 97.

[36:04] Easy transition back and forth.

[36:06] Who knows?

[36:07] >> All right. Um speaking of the guy who

[36:09] jumps out of or off of mountains in a in

[36:12] a squirrel suit. Let's talk about the

[36:13] squirrel suit.

[36:13] >> Sure.

[36:14] >> And why in the world anyone who values

[36:16] their life, seriously though,

[36:17] >> Yeah, I know. I get it.

[36:18] >> would do this. And is there an off-ramp?

[36:21] Is there a parachute? And when you learn

[36:23] how to do this?

[36:24] >> Yeah.

[36:25] >> How hard is it to learn? And what's the

[36:27] juice there?

[36:28] >> Okay, a lot of questions there. Okay,

[36:29] it's funny a lot of people call them

[36:31] squirrel suits. It's just a wing suit.

[36:33] Squirrel is actually a manufacturer of

[36:35] one of the suits, fantastic branding.

[36:37] They happen to be the suit that I jump.

[36:39] So essentially it is

[36:42] a human body turning into a nylon wing.

[36:45] That's really all it is. It's nylon,

[36:46] it's some neoprene around the wrists so

[36:48] you have a little bit of flexibility in

[36:49] the wrist. They're really actually

[36:51] advancing the leading edge technology

[36:53] with the fabric. It's just I mean it's

[36:55] crazy to look I don't know the name of

[36:57] the program but you're looking at all of

[36:58] these

[36:59] images from the side of wind angles and

[37:02] how the suits they're looking to reduce

[37:04] drag. Um and it's more than just the

[37:06] rigidity of your body. So at least the

[37:08] suits that I jump are modern suits.

[37:11] They are ram air inflated. So there is

[37:14] an outer layer on both sides an upper

[37:16] layer let's say for the your back and an

[37:17] under layer for your belly. In between

[37:20] it's much like a canopy. There's ribbed

[37:22] fabric with port holes and on the front

[37:25] and back of the wing

[37:27] as you

[37:28] give it air speed either exiting an

[37:30] airplane that's already in flight. It's

[37:32] most skydiving airplanes are probably

[37:33] doing 80 to 120

[37:35] miles an hour or in the base jumping

[37:37] world and this is where it can get spicy

[37:39] as you have no air flow for about the

[37:41] first 4 seconds.

[37:42] >> Base jumping for those that don't know

[37:43] is

[37:44] >> Fixed up. Call it a fixed object.

[37:45] Building antenna span or earth is what

[37:47] the acronym stands for. You're probably

[37:49] not going to do it off of buildings cuz

[37:50] it's it you need time to get the suit

[37:52] actually flying.

[37:54] But it's a different experience because

[37:56] if you jump out of an airplane those ram

[37:57] air inlets fill up your suit is it's

[37:59] pressurized. You can feel it and you can

[38:01] already fly your suit. You can flip

[38:03] over. You can actually I've gotten above

[38:04] aircraft many time. You can basically

[38:06] translate that horizontal lift into

[38:09] power and go above them. Surely you're

[38:10] going to come back down

[38:12] um otherwise you'll stall the suit and

[38:13] it starts waffling down.

[38:15] But in the base jumping world it's a

[38:16] zero air speed exit. So for the first

[38:18] about zero to 4 seconds

[38:21] you don't have any air filling up the

[38:23] ram air inlets. So, if you don't go off

[38:25] in the right body position or if you go

[38:27] head low and are scorpioning or head

[38:30] high and then you pitch through that and

[38:32] there is terrain below you, that's how a

[38:34] lot of people die. But, the suit itself

[38:36] is is basically that. It's uh there's

[38:38] wings there's a large wing between your

[38:39] leg, a wing underneath your arm on both

[38:42] the left and right-hand side and they

[38:43] come in a variety of sizes. So, learning

[38:45] it

[38:46] is

[38:47] >> [gasps]

[38:49] >> it's simple, not easy. First off,

[38:51] skydive before you throw a wingsuit on

[38:53] in the skydiving world. I think I had

[38:54] 3,000 jumps before I put a wingsuit on

[38:56] the first time.

[38:57] >> Is it important that people do different

[38:59] types of skydiving? Uh by the way, I'm

[39:00] not versed in skydiving. So, what what's

[39:03] the most basic type of I I assume a

[39:05] tandem jump and you start doing

[39:06] individual jumps.

[39:07] >> Some people go I like I went right to

[39:09] the first time I did a skydive, I had an

[39:11] instructor holding on to me from for

[39:12] both sides until my parachute deployed.

[39:14] It's a very structured

[39:16] program that most modern drop zones will

[39:18] have. A lot of people will do a tandem

[39:20] first, which I recommend. If you're un-

[39:22] if you've never done it and you're

[39:23] uncertain about whether or not you would

[39:24] like it, I I think there's two really

[39:26] good options.

[39:27] One is a tandem.

[39:29] But, if even that idea makes you a

[39:31] little bit uncertain, there's now enough

[39:32] wind tunnels around, commercial wind

[39:34] tunnels. There's down There's Oceanside

[39:36] wind tunnel. There's one in LA. There's

[39:37] one in San Diego. They're all over the

[39:39] place. I was just in Virginia Beach.

[39:41] There's one in Virginia Beach. So, it

[39:43] simulates

[39:44] the sensation of falling through the air

[39:46] in an environment where you don't have

[39:47] to wear a parachute, you don't have to

[39:48] ride an airplane. You literally hop in

[39:50] there. They can hold on to you and it

[39:52] feels like skydive.

[39:54] >> Sounds like fun.

[39:54] >> It's leveled up what people can do in

[39:57] the air cuz it's this contained

[39:59] environment where you can see if you're

[40:00] moving a millimeter.

[40:01] The number of jumps I have had where you

[40:03] get out you jump out into the air where

[40:05] your only reference is another person

[40:06] that's moving around and you get you are

[40:09] sliding all over the place. Like, [ __ ]

[40:10] you. You were sliding all over the

[40:11] place. Neither of you know cuz your

[40:13] reference is the earth just flying

[40:14] around. And then you get in the wind

[40:15] tunnel and you're both up against the

[40:16] glass, and you're like, "Oh, we both

[40:17] suck." So,

[40:18] makes it a little bit more difficult.

[40:20] The most basic type of skydive would be

[40:22] just exiting the plane in flight,

[40:24] falling with your belly to the oriented

[40:27] towards the ground, and deploying your

[40:28] parachute on time. Skydiving is two

[40:29] parachutes, main parachute and reserve.

[40:31] Reserve is packed by an FAA rigger.

[40:34] And I believe it's For one period of

[40:36] time, it was 90 days in between pack

[40:37] jobs. I think it's 6 months in between

[40:39] pack jobs now. But, full they open it

[40:41] up, the reserve. They open the parachute

[40:43] up, they inspect it, they make sure that

[40:45] the canopy is good, the lines are good.

[40:47] Um the automatic activation devices,

[40:49] which are computers,

[40:51] sensing uh fall rate, barometric

[40:53] pressure, with a firing criteria, which

[40:55] will fire your reserve for you if you do

[40:57] nothing, which has hundreds of

[40:59] documented saves, by the way.

[41:01] Um for an unconscious jumper, or

[41:03] whatever it may be, or somebody is crazy

[41:05] as it is to say,

[41:07] somebody falling through the air

[41:09] forgetting to look at their altimeter

[41:10] cuz they're having so much fun.

[41:13] It happens.

[41:15] So,

[41:15] Cypresses or uh Vigils or just AADs,

[41:18] automatic activation devices, have saved

[41:20] hundreds of lives.

[41:22] So, that reserve parachute is packed by

[41:23] a rigger. Most civilian jumpers will

[41:25] pack their own main parachute. It takes

[41:28] 5 minutes for an experienced jumper,

[41:29] maybe 20 minutes for somebody who is

[41:31] learning.

[41:32] And you can go do

[41:34] I think the most jumps I've ever done in

[41:35] a day was probably 30.

[41:37] That was at at a at a an event called a

[41:39] boogie, where it's just as fast as you

[41:41] can go. And you're just jumping,

[41:42] jumping, jumping. An average day for me

[41:43] when I lived in San Diego would be six

[41:45] to eight jumps.

[41:47] >> I'd like to take a quick break and

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[43:05] >> For somebody's first uh non-tandem jump,

[43:08] how high is the plane off the ground?

[43:10] >> 13,000 is about average. 13 AGL. So, if

[43:14] you're learning in Colorado or another

[43:17] Rocky Mountain state,

[43:18] you might only get

[43:20] 12 AGL because you might be up to the 16

[43:22] to 18,000 ft. But, there's

[43:24] [clears throat] flying with your belly

[43:26] oriented to the earth. There's people

[43:27] who like to do it vertically, either

[43:29] feet down or head down.

[43:31] People who fly on their back. There are

[43:33] formation jumps where they'll get a

[43:34] bunch of people together. I think the

[43:36] world record is

[43:37] hundreds of people linked up in

[43:39] freefall. You can watch it from the

[43:40] ground. It's crazy to see. They'll have

[43:43] eight air cra- aircraft and you just see

[43:45] these just people bombing out of the

[43:47] back. And they'll make these snowflake

[43:49] configurations and people just sitting

[43:50] there on the ground watching with their

[43:51] naked eye or with uh

[43:53] with binoculars. And then they break off

[43:54] altitude, everybody's tracking away, and

[43:56] then all these canopies open up, and

[43:58] then on landing it gets a little bit

[43:59] wild. So, it can get as much as you

[44:01] want, and then um wingsuiting is just a

[44:03] part of that. But, you can jump a a

[44:06] smaller wingsuit. So, if the suits I

[44:08] ended up jumping had a lot of fabric

[44:10] because I wanted to have a nice glide

[44:13] ratio and I wanted to be able to extend

[44:15] the amount of time in the air. You can

[44:17] get suits with a smaller wing, which

[44:18] give you more maneuverability.

[44:20] And you learn in those and then get a

[44:21] little bit bigger,

[44:23] a little bit bigger and bigger and

[44:24] bigger. So,

[44:25] as safely as possible, graduating your

[44:28] way towards those larger suits that can

[44:30] have more consequence.

[44:32] Uh you can end up on your back in the

[44:33] wingsuits in flat spins. And I've seen

[44:35] people

[44:36] they can you can get out of it. You need

[44:38] to get out of it quickly, but we're

[44:39] talking fully blown uh red eyes when

[44:41] they get to the ground from centrifugal

[44:43] force.

[44:44] And pretty quick, too. That's the

[44:47] skydiving world.

[44:48] Two parachutes. The BASE jumping world

[44:50] is you're now down to one parachute that

[44:53] is packed very similar to a reserve, but

[44:55] it's packed now by the jumper who is

[44:57] doing the BASE jumping.

[44:59] And the reason for that is you are

[45:00] generally very close to the ground at an

[45:02] altitude where a reserve isn't going to

[45:04] save you because it does take a couple

[45:05] hundred feet for a reserve to open up.

[45:07] And um

[45:10] in the US, there's one place to legally

[45:11] do it 24/7 365. It's the Perrine Bridge

[45:15] up in Twin Falls,

[45:17] which is where I learned. It's, you

[45:18] know, the legality aspect is if people

[45:21] pursue to go that they want to go that

[45:23] way, um do your research because there's

[45:25] some cities that had some problems with

[45:27] it. So, they made it a felony, which

[45:29] will change your life if you want to

[45:30] test gravity off of a building. I don't

[45:32] know if the capital F is necessarily

[45:33] worth it. Vegas and New York are two

[45:35] good examples of that.

[45:37] Um

[45:38] most people start off at that bridge. Uh

[45:41] and then an antenna is of course exactly

[45:43] that, radio antennas. And there are

[45:44] other countries in the world where that

[45:46] is legal to do. And a lot of times

[45:47] people will travel.

[45:49] >> [gasps]

[45:49] >> Uh buildings, you can get permission uh

[45:51] depending um I know one of your guys

[45:53] worked with Red Bull, not for Red Bull.

[45:55] He clarified for us. Shockingly enough,

[45:57] if you write a large check, things that

[45:59] were once illegal

[46:01] can become legal for short periods of

[46:03] So, they will get permission to go off

[46:05] of buildings or you can go to Dubai

[46:07] where for I think it was a year they had

[46:09] this huge just it was fully just set up

[46:12] for legal base jumping off one of the

[46:13] top floors of one of those skyscrapers,

[46:15] which is unbelievable.

[46:17] And then Earth, which is obviously that

[46:18] and

[46:19] cliffs um my first

[46:22] uh base jump off of a

[46:24] uh

[46:25] actually it was from the bridge. I have

[46:28] actually I've done an antenna

[46:30] buildings

[46:31] not many bitty building not many

[46:33] buildings, but my first jump uh off the

[46:35] Earth was Monte Brento in Italy.

[46:38] Which

[46:39] you jump, open your canopy, land, walk

[46:42] across the street, and there's an

[46:43] Italian espresso just waiting for you.

[46:45] Perfect. It's basically heaven.

[46:47] And then we stayed there for 2 and 1/2

[46:48] weeks and went into Lauterbrunnen in

[46:50] Switzerland.

[46:51] But I had been skydiving

[46:54] and

[46:55] flying a wingsuit, then I had to learn

[46:56] how to base jump, and then at some point

[46:58] you have to combine those two. So, one

[47:00] day you have to go from never having

[47:03] pushed off of a cliff in a wingsuit

[47:06] and having time flying it in the air

[47:09] to kind of bridging that gap where now

[47:10] you have this first 4 seconds that you

[47:12] have to deal with where the suit the

[47:13] suit feels really sloppy, it doesn't

[47:15] feel rigid, and you can't really do

[47:17] anything until it powers up

[47:20] and you can pull away.

[47:21] So, that's kind of the activities. The

[47:23] why I can't answer for anybody other

[47:26] than myself.

[47:27] But the why for me actually had nothing

[47:30] to do with the activity itself. And it

[47:32] is dangerous. There are some people who

[47:34] try to romanticize the danger of that

[47:36] and

[47:37] if people want to par- participate in

[47:38] things

[47:40] because they're dangerous and that's how

[47:41] they want to define themselves, I leave

[47:43] that to you. Um just, you know, be aware

[47:45] of the potential consequences you might

[47:46] get yourself into.

[47:48] For me, I got into that about 3 years

[47:50] after I got out of the Navy and I didn't

[47:52] realize what it was I enjoyed so much.

[47:55] But it was the mental reset associated

[47:57] with that.

[47:59] Um

[48:00] At about 1 minute out on a helicopter

[48:02] for me and I can only speak for me.

[48:05] Your entire you know we're talking about

[48:07] time.

[48:08] Your entire

[48:10] circle of

[48:12] concern

[48:13] goes away.

[48:15] Completely gone.

[48:16] And there are very few times in my life

[48:19] where I've ever been able to get into

[48:20] that headspace.

[48:22] But it might be the most powerful

[48:23] headspace I've ever been able to arrive

[48:25] into and my ability to find my way there

[48:28] lasted for months afterwards. Because

[48:30] overseas

[48:32] yeah, they ask you to do some some

[48:34] bizarre stuff. But you also likely at

[48:37] some point in your in your career will

[48:38] have [clears throat] a family.

[48:40] Maybe your first house, whatever it is

[48:41] and

[48:42] like talking the washing machine just

[48:43] broke and you're dealing with real life

[48:45] stuff. Did I did I write enough checks

[48:46] before I left the before the digital age

[48:48] did I write enough checks before I left

[48:50] to make sure that the rent was already

[48:52] paid. Now these are the things you're

[48:53] thinking about. Just normal everyday

[48:54] life. An argument with your spouse, your

[48:56] kids, the holidays you may have missed,

[48:57] all that stuff.

[48:59] Get on a helicopter and you start

[49:00] heading towards an objective

[49:02] and all that stuff starts to go away.

[49:04] And in about for me about the 1 minute

[49:06] and in until it lands or you're stepping

[49:09] off it becomes this focus on the next 3

[49:13] seconds of your life.

[49:15] Is the only thing I was capable of

[49:17] thinking about.

[49:18] And that is such a beautiful place. God,

[49:21] you want to talk about

[49:22] the ability

[49:24] to perform

[49:26] and not feel like you're necessarily

[49:28] you're not trying to force it. You're

[49:30] just there's books been written about

[49:32] the flow state for lack of a better

[49:33] term. Incredibly impactful.

[49:35] And I didn't realize how much I needed

[49:38] that.

[49:39] And I didn't realize how much that job

[49:41] was providing for me until it was gone.

[49:44] And then the static of everyday life

[49:46] just is overwhelming. Skydiving

[49:50] I guess you could get that or maybe I

[49:51] got that when I first started, but after

[49:53] a few thousand jumps

[49:55] about everything that's going to go

[49:57] wrong, you're going to have your first

[49:58] cutaway, you're going to have a mal, you

[50:00] know what I mean? You're going to deal

[50:00] with your gear, your reserve is going to

[50:02] open. And so that that really narrowed

[50:05] focus it actually starts opening back

[50:07] up.

[50:09] The BASE jumping world, I remember the

[50:10] first time I was with the guy who taught

[50:12] me, he's like, "All right, let's climb

[50:14] over the edge of the rail here and

[50:15] you're looking at 486 ft. You test the

[50:18] wind by spitting.

[50:19] And if you and if it drifts past a

[50:21] certain point, you're good to go."

[50:23] So [laughter]

[50:24] you can track your spit to where you are

[50:26] going to deck if you don't pull your

[50:28] parachute. Now, on the first one, he's

[50:29] holding onto the pilot chute, so it rips

[50:31] it off for you, so you don't have to

[50:32] worry about it.

[50:33] >> [snorts]

[50:33] >> But you want to talk about that

[50:35] right back into that space, holy cow.

[50:38] That's what BASE jumping was for me.

[50:41] I had some of the the deepest

[50:43] conversations with my friends on the

[50:45] 4-hour hikes that would lead to a

[50:46] 90-second jump.

[50:48] And

[50:49] 2 weeks of those 90-second jumps, I

[50:51] could get myself into such a more dialed

[50:53] head space

[50:55] for 6 months and be better at business,

[50:58] better at, you know, a more patient

[50:59] father, a more patient husband. That's

[51:02] that to me is why.

[51:05] And at some point

[51:07] it probably due to the death of my

[51:08] friends and I had found other activities

[51:11] that had started to provide that, it

[51:13] crossed the

[51:14] metric for me where the risk was no

[51:17] longer worth worth the reward. I I have

[51:19] been skydiving since 1999, I can take 5

[51:22] years off and go jump out of an airplane

[51:23] and I'd be fine, but I can't do that in

[51:25] the BASE jumping world. The currency and

[51:27] competency piece is so important and

[51:30] then when I moved to Montana, my access

[51:31] to the drop zones and the ability to

[51:33] maintain currency and competency in that

[51:35] wingsuit really decreased.

[51:38] So, it got to a place where it just it

[51:41] wasn't worth the risk. Skydiving is

[51:42] still a bunch of fun, but I found other

[51:45] activities that I could kind of lose

[51:46] myself in.

[51:48] Maybe not to the same I don't think to

[51:49] the same degree. I I

[51:52] It's hard to describe zipping up in that

[51:54] suit

[51:55] with a maximal heart rate to the point

[51:58] where you're looking over your buddy

[51:59] like "Hey

[52:00] can Are you hearing my heart, too? Cuz

[52:02] it's pretty loud. It's about the You

[52:03] know what I mean? Like that thrush in

[52:05] your ears."

[52:05] >> That's informative to [laughter] hear

[52:07] that your heart was maxed out because I

[52:10] wondered if you you know, if adrenaline

[52:11] was low, if it was high, you know,

[52:13] something had had happened

[52:14] systematically over the years in the

[52:16] teams where your adrenaline was set too

[52:17] low. You need to crank it above a

[52:19] certain threshold. Sounds like you were

[52:20] right where any rational person would

[52:23] be, which was terrified.

[52:25] >> Cuz at some point you grab your little

[52:26] tail wing and you make a little nice

[52:28] little teepee with it and you get your

[52:29] toes to the edge

[52:31] and you check all your stuff

[52:33] and then you are just looking out into

[52:35] the abyss.

[52:36] And you have to make yourself rock

[52:39] forward past a point of no return that

[52:42] if you change your mind, whoopsies, that

[52:45] doesn't work anymore and then you need

[52:46] to have maximal human performance for

[52:48] about the next 4 seconds of your life if

[52:51] you want your life to continue.

[52:53] So, if you're not scared in that

[52:55] environment, I would recommend you stop

[52:57] that activity immediately cuz you're not

[52:58] paying attention.

[52:59] It was

[53:01] terrifying.

[53:02] And that's probably why I liked it so

[53:04] much. It was awesome. Don't get me

[53:06] wrong. Ripping down a mountain in

[53:08] Switzerland 6 ft off the ground almost

[53:10] playing tag with your shadow and then

[53:12] turning around and like carving through

[53:13] trees amazing.

[53:14] >> So, you're actually pretty low to the

[53:15] ground just going very, very fast over

[53:17] steep ground.

[53:18] >> Yes. If you want to be. Not everybody

[53:20] chooses to fly that way. And you can you

[53:22] can have on the exact same jump

[53:25] I can think of one very

[53:26] specifically. It's at the far end of the

[53:28] valley in Switzerland. It's a 4-hour

[53:30] hike up and it's

[53:31] I mean, you're getting water out of your

[53:33] in your you know, canteen or Nalgene out

[53:35] of like these glacially just spouting

[53:37] out of the rocks and there's sheep and

[53:38] stuff and you know, it's it's like a

[53:40] postcard. You walk for 4 hours.

[53:43] You can have a really aggressive jump on

[53:45] that and fly for 60 seconds or you could

[53:47] flatten your suit out and just glide and

[53:49] fly for 2 and 1/2 minutes. Same jump,

[53:51] different choices. Not that, you know,

[53:53] necessarily flying farther out. You

[53:54] still need to pack your parachute

[53:55] correctly and all those things, but your

[53:57] likelihood of impacting a tree at 100

[53:58] miles an hour with your face

[54:00] is a lot better than flying 6 ft off the

[54:03] ground around corners that hopefully

[54:05] you've done some test jumps on and

[54:07] gotten lower and lower and lower and

[54:08] lower instead of just flash point in

[54:10] that thing hoping for the best as you

[54:12] come around the corner. Which a lot of

[54:13] people do.

[54:13] >> How fast are you moving when you're

[54:15] above the ground?

[54:17] >> If you really bend those suits over, I'd

[54:18] say you could get them to about 120.

[54:22] Face first.

[54:23] >> You're a human missile.

[54:25] >> It's awesome.

[54:27] >> [laughter]

[54:27] >> I can, you know, we can the those of us

[54:30] like myself listening to this can only

[54:33] wonder right?

[54:34] >> feel [clears throat] it in the suit. So,

[54:35] again, the ram air inlets,

[54:37] when you're a little bit flatter, flying

[54:39] slow, you just It feels like you're on

[54:41] an air mattress. It's really what flying

[54:42] feels like. As you bend the suit over

[54:45] and you're just violently diving at the

[54:48] ground, you can feel the suit. It's

[54:50] almost like it's it's just your power

[54:52] meter is just all the way up. And so, if

[54:54] you get in trouble, you can flatten that

[54:56] out and that's how you that's your

[54:57] safety. You can disconnect from the

[54:58] terrain.

[54:59] Which is how, unfortunately, some people

[55:01] die. They're not paying attention to

[55:02] that sensation and they're slowly

[55:03] getting flatter and flatter and flatter

[55:05] and flatter.

[55:06] Then they encounter flat terrain and

[55:08] they don't have enough performance in

[55:09] the suit to clear it and they impact.

[55:12] But that, when you're pitched over like

[55:13] that and that thing is just

[55:16] and you

[55:17] it feels like you are licking the

[55:21] largest 9-volt battery you've ever

[55:22] licked in your life.

[55:24] >> [laughter]

[55:25] >> Uh would your uh would your parents say

[55:27] that this this is a window into the

[55:29] young Andy Stumpf or or is this a a

[55:32] departure or an an evolution devolution

[55:35] evolution?

[55:37] >> I don't know if they would have called

[55:38] that one. I don't think

[55:41] I I don't know if I would have called

[55:43] that activity. If I would have said this

[55:44] one was going to be interesting to me.

[55:46] >> Let me ask you this. When you were a

[55:47] kid, not recommending anyone do this,

[55:49] but when you were a kid and your and

[55:52] your guy friends [snorts]

[55:52] someone found one of the larger

[55:54] firecrackers available, were you the kid

[55:56] that would hold it

[55:58] after it was lit until the last second

[56:00] and then throw it? Cuz I knew that kid,

[56:01] but it wasn't me.

[56:03] >> Does he still have both hands?

[56:04] >> Uh yes, but the He was great

[56:06] skateboarder, by the way. Became pro

[56:07] skateboarder right out of high school.

[56:09] Um moved on to other things eventually.

[56:11] I think those things were correlated,

[56:12] right? I mean, he used to do big rails.

[56:13] Like he had a very very good

[56:15] relationship with confronting fear.

[56:17] There was another kid in our crew who

[56:19] would have been around the corner the

[56:20] moment the thing came out. Okay, I was

[56:22] neither of those kids, right? And then

[56:25] there's a distribution in the middle.

[56:26] >> Yeah.

[56:27] >> Where were you?

[56:28] >> My answer's not going to make sense to

[56:29] you because

[56:30] holding it that long sounds dangerous.

[56:32] >> [laughter]

[56:34] >> It is dangerous, but but wingsuit

[56:36] >> I know, that's what I'm saying. It's not

[56:37] going to make sense. That sounds

[56:38] dangerous, but just for the sake of

[56:40] danger, which somebody could 100% say

[56:42] about base jumping as well. But I don't

[56:44] know if holding on to, say, an M80 and

[56:47] wondering, you know, how long you can

[56:50] provides for you

[56:52] that mental I mean, I'm talking about

[56:54] your canopy opens, you land, you're

[56:56] laying in a [ __ ] meadow in

[56:58] Switzerland on your back.

[57:01] Like

[57:02] it is a sense of ease and peace.

[57:05] I don't think you're getting that from

[57:06] an M80.

[57:07] >> No. The reason I ask is that, you know,

[57:09] there are a lot of questions that the

[57:10] scientist in me wants to know about, you

[57:12] know, resetting of adrenaline set points

[57:14] and you know, and because people can

[57:16] become desensitized to to um high-risk,

[57:18] high-consequence type situations.

[57:20] >> You see that in the wingsuiting

[57:22] community. I would say specifically the

[57:23] wingsuit base jumping community. The

[57:25] fatality rate is high.

[57:27] >> Mhm.

[57:27] >> I would never tell anybody that it is a

[57:29] safe activity, but I think you can do it

[57:31] as safely as possible. There's still

[57:33] immense residual risk. So, you have to

[57:35] ask yourself, what is it worth?

[57:36] >> If we were to plot out um number of

[57:40] wingsuit jumps

[57:41] >> Mhm.

[57:41] >> and

[57:43] plot fatality time of fatality relative

[57:46] to first jump, right? So, so that the

[57:48] question like the area under the curve.

[57:49] So, are you getting to address what you

[57:52] just said? Are you getting more deaths

[57:54] the longer people have been doing it

[57:56] independent of the number of jumps,

[57:57] right? They can't really do that

[57:58] experiment. It's It's not a perfect

[58:00] experiment. The The question is, are

[58:01] people getting more dangerous to

[58:02] themselves because

[58:05] they need They're pushing further and

[58:07] further into

[58:09] the abyss, getting closer to the edge,

[58:12] uh taking risks, or is the novice more

[58:14] dangerous because they're a novice?

[58:16] >> I think the Dunning-Kruger effect is

[58:17] always

[58:18] >> Mhm.

[58:19] >> the most dangerous aspect of it. I think

[58:21] it would probably track You certainly

[58:23] see people

[58:24] especially in the

[58:27] content age, I've seen people reach out

[58:30] not to me, but to forums, "Hey, I just

[58:32] want to get into wingsuit base jumping

[58:34] as fast as possible." And everybody on

[58:36] there is like, "Whoa."

[58:37] >> Mhm.

[58:38] >> No, you need to go I mean, most people

[58:39] will recommend skydiving 200 jumps to

[58:42] even before you put a wingsuit on, which

[58:43] for most people who aren't doing it

[58:45] professionally, that's going to take a

[58:46] year or two. It's a slow progression.

[58:49] But that person reaching out saying that

[58:50] doesn't have time for that.

[58:52] So, you're definitely going to get some

[58:53] people early on. The guys who are around

[58:56] the longest, the ones that I know who

[58:59] are kind of the titans in the sport,

[59:00] it's not that I don't worry about them,

[59:02] I worry less. I think it's maybe more I

[59:05] honestly, I think it's that

[59:05] Dunning-Kruger curve where it's going to

[59:07] get people. Especially when

[59:10] let's say you do this amazing jump,

[59:11] right? You're ripping around a corner

[59:13] and

[59:14] things you learn later on, like, "Hey,

[59:17] is it ascending or descending thermals

[59:19] right now? Where's the wind coming from?

[59:21] What type of day is this? Is the slope

[59:24] I'm just jumped off maybe it was a

[59:28] western facing slope that I jumped

[59:30] towards and I felt this amazing uprush

[59:32] of air which is what you want to feel on

[59:34] an exit point. Same thing as why

[59:35] airplanes take off into the wind, it

[59:36] helps with performance.

[59:38] Well, as I am cruising down this

[59:41] mountain, am I thinking about the fact

[59:43] that 3/4 of it is covered in the shade

[59:45] and maybe the thermals have switched

[59:47] along the way and you're going to start

[59:48] feeling this pressure of almost a hand

[59:50] on your back? You You know, you do it

[59:52] The first time you do that jump

[59:55] and you survive

[59:57] the dangerous thing to say is

[59:59] nailed it.

[1:00:01] But did you nail it or did you get away

[1:00:03] with it? And that's what kills people.

[1:00:05] And that's that perfect Dunning-Kruger

[1:00:07] ascending line.

[1:00:08] >> Man, there's a a quote that should be

[1:00:10] stamped into everyone's brain young and

[1:00:12] old. Did Did you nail it or did you get

[1:00:14] away with it? Because

[1:00:15] >> There's a difference to a lot of areas

[1:00:17] of life. They could spare people a lot

[1:00:19] of pain and some important insights. I

[1:00:23] got away with it more than I nailed it.

[1:00:25] I'm I am

[1:00:26] >> being humble?

[1:00:27] >> No.

[1:00:28] >> Okay.

[1:00:28] >> No, you don't know what you don't know

[1:00:30] until

[1:00:32] you

[1:00:33] see somebody else get bit by the same

[1:00:35] thing. Or you're on a jump with somebody

[1:00:37] and only one of the three makes it out

[1:00:39] or two of the three makes it out and

[1:00:40] they all had the same idea and plan.

[1:00:43] >> And you describe some of that in your

[1:00:44] book. I don't want to give that story

[1:00:45] away but

[1:00:46] >> with Alex specifically. I wasn't there

[1:00:47] for Alex's jump but I had jumped with

[1:00:50] Alex enough for years.

[1:00:53] The The one thing I wish I could do

[1:00:54] looking back with him is I was there

[1:00:56] with him for some close calls that he

[1:00:59] had.

[1:01:00] A few were bad decisions

[1:01:02] that he

[1:01:03] I would like to think corrected for

[1:01:05] because there there is a phase in

[1:01:06] anything that you're doing

[1:01:08] that my

[1:01:09] uh instructor taught me how to fly

[1:01:10] helicopters. He's like, "Listen, once

[1:01:13] you know better, you can do better."

[1:01:15] But there's a phase where you don't know

[1:01:17] any better. And so you think what you're

[1:01:19] doing is correct until either somebody

[1:01:20] points it out or you watch something so

[1:01:23] horrific happen and you pay attention to

[1:01:25] an investigation afterwards or a debrief

[1:01:27] afterwards

[1:01:28] and you can learn from that.

[1:01:30] But with uh with Alex, I I wish I could

[1:01:33] go back and just honestly slap him

[1:01:35] around a little bit cuz that's what it

[1:01:36] would take for him to pay attention. He

[1:01:38] would be appreciative of it, I think, if

[1:01:39] he understood what it would save.

[1:01:42] But

[1:01:43] I I would associate his death directly

[1:01:46] also with that

[1:01:47] Dunning-Kruger curve and he had been

[1:01:49] doing it for years.

[1:01:50] That doesn't mean you're out of that.

[1:01:51] It's that middle area where you think

[1:01:53] you have everything dialed.

[1:01:55] I think he had gotten away with it more

[1:01:56] than he had nailed it and I and I had

[1:01:58] to.

[1:01:59] >> Would you let

[1:02:00] your kids

[1:02:02] squirrel suit?

[1:02:03] >> Do I have the right to stop them?

[1:02:05] >> Yes.

[1:02:07] >> No.

[1:02:10] >> Knowing the risk?

[1:02:11] >> I mean, I would do everything I could to

[1:02:13] prepare them as much as possible

[1:02:15] and and by that I mean scare the

[1:02:17] absolute dog [ __ ] out of them with the

[1:02:19] reality and confront them with the

[1:02:21] actual reality of it. Show them how long

[1:02:24] it would actually take.

[1:02:26] What they would need to do. What they

[1:02:28] would need to sacrifice in order to be

[1:02:30] able to get at that level.

[1:02:32] But then if they

[1:02:35] wanted to make that choice

[1:02:39] I don't feel like I have the right to

[1:02:40] stand in between them and that desire.

[1:02:45] >> Appreciate the honest answer. I'm sure

[1:02:46] they I'm sure they do, too. I don't know

[1:02:48] if your wife appreciates that particular

[1:02:50] answer, but we'll ask her. I don't get

[1:02:51] involved in marital disputes. That's a

[1:02:53] that's a

[1:02:53] >> We don't have any. Our relationship is

[1:02:55] perfect.

[1:02:56] >> [laughter]

[1:02:56] >> Excellent excellent answer. Wait, you've

[1:02:58] been married before. No, that was a that

[1:03:00] was a joke.

[1:03:01] >> That is correct. I'll tell you what, I

[1:03:02] learned some stuff. I learned some

[1:03:04] stuff.

[1:03:04] >> You talk very openly in

[1:03:07] in the book. I mean, to the extent you

[1:03:08] don't reveal specifics, but about that

[1:03:10] the challenges of of uh

[1:03:12] of that the ending of that first

[1:03:14] marriage.

[1:03:14] >> Hardest thing I've ever done in my life.

[1:03:16] People think that being a SEAL is hard,

[1:03:18] and it is.

[1:03:20] Um but a lot of that is truncated with

[1:03:22] hey, we're going to go overseas for this

[1:03:24] short period of time, and time away, and

[1:03:26] it can be physiologically and

[1:03:27] psychologically challenging, but

[1:03:29] once you're in that community,

[1:03:32] I didn't encounter anything

[1:03:34] the military never asked me to do

[1:03:36] anything that that got me to a place

[1:03:38] where I was judging or asking myself

[1:03:42] what type of person I was, or if I was a

[1:03:45] good enough person to be able to

[1:03:48] continue going forward with anybody

[1:03:50] other than just myself. Like those

[1:03:51] questions I wasn't asking myself in the

[1:03:53] military.

[1:03:54] At the lowest points of a nearly 2-year

[1:03:56] divorce process that was very

[1:03:58] contentious. And quite frankly, the

[1:03:59] reason I I don't go into details is I

[1:04:02] have built a larger or a platform, and

[1:04:03] my ex-wife doesn't have one, and that's

[1:04:05] the fairest way to be about it. And I

[1:04:06] totally respect that. If you want to go

[1:04:08] talk with her, trust me, I know the

[1:04:10] story you're going to get. Enjoy it.

[1:04:11] Believe what you want to believe. I

[1:04:12] always tell people if you hear bad stuff

[1:04:14] about me, please believe it.

[1:04:16] >> That's what you tell them? Yeah.

[1:04:18] >> I mean, why not? It It I am certainly

[1:04:21] not everybody's cup of tea.

[1:04:23] There's no way to please everybody

[1:04:26] ever.

[1:04:26] >> Amen to that.

[1:04:27] >> So, if somebody is out there

[1:04:30] who wants to run me through the mud,

[1:04:32] cool. Just believe every word that you

[1:04:35] were told if you want to, but if you

[1:04:37] want to get the real spit,

[1:04:38] come hang out with me for a bit, and

[1:04:39] maybe compare and contrast those two

[1:04:41] things. But if you don't want to do

[1:04:42] that, cool. Yeah, that's on you.

[1:04:44] It took every tool that I wrote about in

[1:04:46] that book to get through that. Circle of

[1:04:47] influence, circle of concern, all the

[1:04:49] things that I was worried about, what

[1:04:50] can I do today? Breaking time down into

[1:04:52] the shortest chunks humanly possible,

[1:04:54] controlling how I talk to myself. It was

[1:04:57] absolutely soul-crushing.

[1:05:00] And

[1:05:02] 10 out of 10, do not recommend.

[1:05:04] Yeah, zero stars on Trip Advisor.

[1:05:07] >> Yeah, that portion of the book um

[1:05:09] stopped me. I I to say, and and I uh

[1:05:12] there were other parts of the book that

[1:05:13] that paused me where I was like, "Whoa,

[1:05:15] I didn't expect this coming." And you

[1:05:17] know, I take notes on what I listen to.

[1:05:19] I also read the hard copy. I should have

[1:05:20] mentioned that earlier. I like to do

[1:05:21] both. It's really helpful for me.

[1:05:23] I think maybe other people would benefit

[1:05:25] from that as well. But that segment

[1:05:27] where you said this is the hardest thing

[1:05:29] I'd ever been through and it was as you

[1:05:31] put it again, soul-crushing. And what I

[1:05:33] gathered was and I certainly can't say

[1:05:37] I've experienced this before in a

[1:05:38] different context that when

[1:05:40] other people's narratives start to the

[1:05:43] boundaries between other people's

[1:05:44] narratives and and your narratives and

[1:05:46] then and in your case kids were being

[1:05:48] affected which is

[1:05:50] which is huge. As a child of a divorced

[1:05:52] parents, I think it's also probably got

[1:05:54] to be somewhat different.

[1:05:55] I mean you talk very kindly of your own

[1:05:57] parents. Your story of

[1:05:59] of your relationship to your mom and her

[1:06:01] passing which we can also get to. That

[1:06:03] also stopped me. Also got me to call my

[1:06:05] mom.

[1:06:06] >> [laughter]

[1:06:06] >> So she'll thank you, right? I called my

[1:06:08] mom.

[1:06:09] >> You know you I'm well, you know, time

[1:06:11] and you know, and

[1:06:12] >> You never know how much you have left.

[1:06:14] >> You never know how much time you have

[1:06:15] left. But

[1:06:16] what inspired you to talk about that in

[1:06:19] particular? I know you're not one of

[1:06:20] these guys and

[1:06:22] you know, I don't want to say team guys

[1:06:24] in particular, but not you're not one of

[1:06:25] these guys who wants to paint a perfect

[1:06:26] picture of himself. But talking about

[1:06:29] how a contentious divorce

[1:06:32] came close to you know, brought you

[1:06:34] really close to your edge. Maybe to your

[1:06:35] edge, but fortunately not over it. It's

[1:06:37] an interesting choice and one that I

[1:06:39] appreciate and I know readers will

[1:06:40] appreciate. You humanized the whole

[1:06:43] thing, but what at what point did you

[1:06:44] decide that you wanted that in the book?

[1:06:47] >> I mean probably from the beginning. I

[1:06:49] think one of the biggest mistakes people

[1:06:50] would make is if they would look at a

[1:06:52] job like the one I used to have and

[1:06:54] think that the people who do it are not

[1:06:57] normal people. I was talking with Chris

[1:06:59] Williamson about this and it's a mistake

[1:07:02] that people make. There's no Captain

[1:07:04] America shield

[1:07:06] and cape and cowl that you actually

[1:07:08] wear,

[1:07:09] the things they ask you to do are

[1:07:11] sometimes pretty nutty.

[1:07:13] But,

[1:07:15] after that,

[1:07:16] you go take your gear off,

[1:07:19] clean yourself up, get some food,

[1:07:23] get together with the guys, and you just

[1:07:24] talk about normal day-to-day [ __ ] If

[1:07:27] you were having an argument with your

[1:07:29] wife before you went out on an

[1:07:31] operation, you're coming back to that.

[1:07:34] If your

[1:07:35] house had burned down,

[1:07:38] which I wish I could say I didn't know

[1:07:39] somebody's house burned down, but I did.

[1:07:41] They got that notification shortly

[1:07:43] before we went out on objective.

[1:07:45] Hopefully, didn't allow that to invade

[1:07:46] their mental thought process during, but

[1:07:48] when they came back,

[1:07:49] that's what they're dealing with. Then,

[1:07:50] you come back from deployment,

[1:07:52] and you're presented with all of those

[1:07:54] things.

[1:07:55] It's just It is such a mistake to think

[1:07:57] that there are people out there

[1:08:00] who have everything figured out, or that

[1:08:02] are impervious to the things that are

[1:08:04] damaging

[1:08:06] to you as the person.

[1:08:08] I started doing Q&A

[1:08:10] sessions on Friday for my show because I

[1:08:12] kept getting just this volume and wave

[1:08:15] of emails.

[1:08:16] >> [snorts]

[1:08:16] >> And at first, I wasn't really trying to,

[1:08:18] you know, tranche them into buckets, and

[1:08:19] I thought if I started doing the Friday

[1:08:20] episodes, it would decrease, but

[1:08:22] instead, it multiplied them by orders of

[1:08:24] magnitude. And I realized there really

[1:08:26] were some deep themes. You know, one of

[1:08:29] them is, "I I just don't know how to get

[1:08:31] started on my goals." But, another one

[1:08:33] is, and this is the most dangerous one,

[1:08:36] "I feel like I'm alone.

[1:08:38] I feel like I'm the only person dealing

[1:08:40] with this.

[1:08:42] How can you give me some advice? I look

[1:08:45] at your life from the outside, and it

[1:08:46] seems like you just have, you know,

[1:08:48] you're able to do all these hard

[1:08:49] physical things. What would you do if

[1:08:51] you were me?" I'm like, "Dude,

[1:08:53] I am you."

[1:08:55] So, you have to put that in there. How

[1:08:57] can you not? I mean, at the end of the

[1:08:59] day, I don't know what I I to do with my

[1:09:00] life, but I want to try to help people.

[1:09:03] I don't think you can do that if you're

[1:09:05] trying to sell [ __ ]

[1:09:07] But I do think you can help if you can

[1:09:09] talk about your own personal experiences

[1:09:11] and your own mistakes and the whole

[1:09:12] thing the things that you have suffered

[1:09:15] with not always past tense because my

[1:09:17] life is certainly not perfect and I go

[1:09:18] through seasons in my life now as does

[1:09:20] everybody.

[1:09:21] Why not be honest about that? Why try to

[1:09:23] portray this

[1:09:25] you know,

[1:09:26] follow my 12-step program for $19.99

[1:09:29] every month and you're going to have it

[1:09:29] all figured out. Those are some of the

[1:09:31] most unhappy people that I know by the

[1:09:32] way and often times not nearly as

[1:09:34] successful as they are presenting

[1:09:35] themselves.

[1:09:36] >> Definitely.

[1:09:37] >> I would rather just be like, "Listen,

[1:09:40] you think your life is bad? Why don't

[1:09:41] you put a seat belt on your chair? Got a

[1:09:43] little story for you." And then people

[1:09:44] hear that like, "What?

[1:09:46] You mean you guys deal with that stuff

[1:09:47] too?" It's like, "Yes, that's the whole

[1:09:49] point. You're not alone. You're not

[1:09:51] unique in this."

[1:09:53] So I think from the very beginning of

[1:09:54] deciding to write it I I didn't know

[1:09:55] necessarily that I would

[1:09:57] that I would use that particular

[1:09:59] example.

[1:10:00] But it was the most difficult thing I've

[1:10:03] done in my life, I'm obligated to put

[1:10:05] that in there and talk about it

[1:10:08] as openly as possible while maintaining

[1:10:09] the privacy of the other person

[1:10:11] involved.

[1:10:11] >> Yeah, I was impressed how you main

[1:10:13] maintained respect for your kids, for

[1:10:15] your ex-wife, your your current

[1:10:17] relationship, you know, and um and at

[1:10:19] the same time acknowledge that, you

[1:10:21] know, the the exchange was anything but

[1:10:23] cordial.

[1:10:24] >> It was anything but cordial and you

[1:10:25] know, as I've talked about this before,

[1:10:26] but and I don't know if it made it in

[1:10:28] the book, but I lost contact with my

[1:10:30] oldest son for 18 months. I was the one

[1:10:33] who initiated the end of the

[1:10:34] relationship

[1:10:35] and he was the oldest at the time and I

[1:10:37] don't know if it was a matter of him

[1:10:39] being in a certain phase of his own life

[1:10:42] and [ __ ] you know the deal being a

[1:10:45] a young man is not the easiest path nor

[1:10:47] is being a young woman by any stretch,

[1:10:49] but it's really interesting how

[1:10:51] adults forget how difficult it was in

[1:10:53] those years to just get through the day

[1:10:55] when you think that everything is you

[1:10:57] don't even know who you are. You're

[1:10:57] trying to figure it all out.

[1:10:59] But for 18 months, I I tried calling

[1:11:03] him.

[1:11:04] I tried texting him. I tried writing him

[1:11:07] letters to his mom's house. I would pull

[1:11:10] up next to him at a parking lot that he

[1:11:12] would go to before he went to work.

[1:11:14] And he would burn out [clears throat]

[1:11:15] out of the parking lot without even

[1:11:18] acknowledging that I was there and

[1:11:20] you think SEAL training's hard? Imagine

[1:11:23] something that you don't have the

[1:11:24] vocabulary to describe how much you love

[1:11:28] and thinking every day

[1:11:30] I don't know if I'm going to get this

[1:11:31] back. What else can I do?

[1:11:35] And now, thankfully, by staying the

[1:11:37] course, I think I have a closer

[1:11:38] relationship. And And not everybody has

[1:11:40] that that outcome. But our relationship

[1:11:44] is probably closer than it has ever been

[1:11:47] and he'll call and ask for my advice or

[1:11:49] just

[1:11:50] want to bounce stuff off of me, which I

[1:11:51] think is apparent. Like, if your kids

[1:11:53] are

[1:11:54] soliciting your time to ask questions,

[1:11:57] whatever it is you're doing, stop doing

[1:11:59] that and take the time because it's

[1:12:02] pretty awesome.

[1:12:03] And it means

[1:12:04] that they care about what you say.

[1:12:06] But I thought that was gone, man. You

[1:12:08] want to talk about soul-searching? It's

[1:12:09] nothing I did in the SEAL teams that

[1:12:11] made me wonder whether or not I was a

[1:12:12] good enough man to still exist. But that

[1:12:15] experience did.

[1:12:17] I'd like to take a quick break and

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[1:13:55] >> Wow. Well, I I will say um

[1:13:58] as the description of your your final

[1:14:00] moments with your mom led me to call my

[1:14:03] mom. I wasn't being facetious, I really

[1:14:05] did. You know, the description of the

[1:14:08] divorce process and the challenges that

[1:14:10] go there that, you know, I don't want to

[1:14:11] make this about my story, resonated in

[1:14:13] certain ways. I grew up in a very

[1:14:14] high-conflict divorce. What you just

[1:14:16] said now,

[1:14:17] uh

[1:14:18] I'm on good terms with my dad, but I you

[1:14:20] know, I'm familiar with being the son

[1:14:22] who wants to be protective of his mom,

[1:14:24] but still loves his dad, and being

[1:14:25] caught in the middle.

[1:14:26] >> And I would think about those two. How

[1:14:27] could you not? With all three of my

[1:14:29] kids, how And I have this conversation

[1:14:31] with with my wife now,

[1:14:34] who

[1:14:35] honestly is the only reason that I think

[1:14:37] I pulled out of that was

[1:14:39] the recognition and seeing from somebody

[1:14:41] else, like, "Hey, just so you know,

[1:14:43] like I know you're going through it, but

[1:14:44] this person sees something in you that

[1:14:47] is worth" I mean, I dedicated the book

[1:14:48] to my kids and to my wife for that

[1:14:50] reason.

[1:14:52] But we'll talk about this now because I

[1:14:54] mean it's like why why would they say

[1:14:55] that or why would they do that? And

[1:14:57] she's like listen, that's always going

[1:14:59] to be there mom. I'm like yep, got it.

[1:15:00] Totally nailed it. I understand now. And

[1:15:02] it re-centers and like okay. Doesn't

[1:15:04] make it any easier to deal with, but I

[1:15:06] understand.

[1:15:07] >> Sons and fathers have a certain dynamic

[1:15:09] and mothers and sons have a certain

[1:15:11] dynamic. And mothers and mothers and

[1:15:13] daughters and fathers I only know my own

[1:15:14] experience. I do have a sister so

[1:15:17] there's a parallel experiment there's a

[1:15:18] control experiment. She wouldn't

[1:15:19] appreciate me calling her the control

[1:15:21] experiment but

[1:15:22] >> Did you realize in your parents divorce

[1:15:24] that it was going bad before it did?

[1:15:25] Before they got divorced?

[1:15:27] >> Definitely.

[1:15:28] And listen, I've done a lot of work with

[1:15:30] both of my parents to we're on great

[1:15:32] terms now. I can truly say that. My dad

[1:15:34] was on this podcast. I know you've had

[1:15:36] conversations with your dad publicly. My

[1:15:37] dad and I are quite close.

[1:15:39] You know, and I I now look at it

[1:15:41] differently. I I I'm living in a state

[1:15:43] of gratitude these days where I

[1:15:44] basically like okay, they gave me life.

[1:15:46] That's huge. Like you

[1:15:48] you can't realize that when you're

[1:15:49] younger cuz you're like, you know, F my

[1:15:51] life you know, at times but they gave me

[1:15:53] life so there's that. They gave me so

[1:15:54] many opportunities and then the hardship

[1:15:56] of those years I had my own story and

[1:15:58] version of it, but recently just because

[1:16:01] of some evolutions in my personal life

[1:16:02] which are all good. I'm like I'm going

[1:16:05] to put myself in my dad's

[1:16:07] try and put myself in my dad's frame

[1:16:10] where he was, what he was trying to do

[1:16:11] in his career and in his personal life

[1:16:13] and then my mom's frame. I confess it's

[1:16:16] a little harder to do that because my

[1:16:18] dad and I are both male and there's

[1:16:19] always going to be that, but my mom and

[1:16:20] I were still at home and he was living

[1:16:22] elsewhere. So

[1:16:23] I tried to really work through it in

[1:16:25] those ways and I keep coming back to

[1:16:27] this place where I I now I go, oh my

[1:16:30] god, that must have been so hard for

[1:16:32] them.

[1:16:33] Like not for me. Like I had I mean I had

[1:16:35] years of understanding about how hard it

[1:16:36] was for me. I go for them I'm like holy

[1:16:38] [ __ ] Like that's got to be so tough. I

[1:16:41] would I mean I was really hard on my

[1:16:42] dad.

[1:16:43] >> How old were you when you realized your

[1:16:44] parents were just people doing the best

[1:16:46] they could?

[1:16:47] >> Yesterday. No, I'm just kidding.

[1:16:48] >> No, but that I mean

[1:16:49] >> No, I No, I

[1:16:50] >> For a long time in life as kids though,

[1:16:53] your parents are

[1:16:55] what they say, gospel. And they have

[1:16:57] they must have the answers to everything

[1:16:59] because they're older than any human

[1:17:01] beings ever been.

[1:17:01] >> Oh, man.

[1:17:02] >> And then you realize they are out there

[1:17:04] making [ __ ] up on the fly, doing the

[1:17:07] best they can with the data set that

[1:17:09] they have in front of them.

[1:17:11] Not doing great most of the time. It's

[1:17:13] not because they're not trying to do

[1:17:14] great, they're just [ __ ] people.

[1:17:16] >> Yeah. Well, I can't speak for your kids

[1:17:19] and I wouldn't, but I can say that for

[1:17:20] me, I I joke yesterday, but it was

[1:17:23] actually very young because I I came to

[1:17:25] this kind of black and white conclusion,

[1:17:27] which was not the correct one, which was

[1:17:29] they don't know what they're talking

[1:17:30] about. And that led me to go elsewhere

[1:17:33] to look for answers, and I found a lot

[1:17:35] of answers to a lot of things that I

[1:17:36] wanted. I also found some wrong answers.

[1:17:38] >> Yeah.

[1:17:38] >> I had great mentors throughout my life,

[1:17:40] and the day you realize that your PhD

[1:17:42] advisor doesn't have the answers, that's

[1:17:45] when you go get a post-doc advisor. And

[1:17:47] then you realize they don't have the

[1:17:48] answers, and you go start your own lab,

[1:17:49] and then you realize, "Oh my god, how

[1:17:50] hard their job was?" Cuz now you're

[1:17:52] dealing with graduate students that are

[1:17:53] like saying things like, "Do you even

[1:17:55] know what you're doing?" Until the paper

[1:17:56] gets accepted, and then they're like,

[1:17:57] "Oh my god, like you really know what

[1:17:59] you're doing."

[1:18:00] >> [laughter]

[1:18:00] >> My first graduate student will laugh

[1:18:01] when she hears that. She's actually a

[1:18:02] professor now with a She has two kids,

[1:18:04] she's happily married, she has super

[1:18:05] successful lab. So, but and I said,

[1:18:08] "Have you gone through that evolution?"

[1:18:09] And she's like, "Absolutely." So,

[1:18:12] I will say this, and I again, I can't

[1:18:14] speak for your kids whatsoever, but

[1:18:17] there was a real

[1:18:19] benefit to having that realization early

[1:18:22] that they don't know everything Yeah.

[1:18:24] Because you're

[1:18:25] you're forced to go look for certain

[1:18:27] answers elsewhere. There's also

[1:18:28] something really beautiful to the the

[1:18:31] reconnect, you know, that I have with my

[1:18:33] dad. And my mom and I were more constant

[1:18:35] over the years because our as you said,

[1:18:37] the relationship can be that much

[1:18:38] closer. Would you wish it on anyone?

[1:18:40] Would you wish a divorce on anyone? No.

[1:18:43] But at the same time, like, you know, my

[1:18:46] life wouldn't be what it was. So, that

[1:18:48] portion of the book I have to say

[1:18:49] surprised me. I know you're you're very

[1:18:51] humble, so please hear this as it lands.

[1:18:53] It impressed me that you were willing to

[1:18:55] put it in there in the way you did and

[1:18:56] how you handled it. And it really got me

[1:18:58] thinking about my relationship to my

[1:18:59] dad, my own family life now, where

[1:19:02] that's going, and

[1:19:04] and gave me a lot of uh

[1:19:07] hope and humility around like it's hard

[1:19:10] being a person, let alone being a

[1:19:12] parent.

[1:19:13] >> Yeah.

[1:19:13] >> You know, [laughter] and

[1:19:14] and and and the kid the kid the kid

[1:19:17] piece is easy is easy to relate to, but

[1:19:19] it really opened my perspective. So, I'm

[1:19:20] grateful to you for putting that in

[1:19:22] there.

[1:19:22] >> Yeah, I didn't uh it to me it just

[1:19:24] seemed natural. I didn't even give it a

[1:19:25] second thought.

[1:19:26] >> Yeah, but you're also jumping out

[1:19:28] off mountainsides in squirrel suits.

[1:19:30] >> Yeah.

[1:19:30] >> You know, you

[1:19:31] >> But I'm telling you if you've ever

[1:19:32] tasted that 9-V the way I did, you might

[1:19:34] you might actually be like, "So, what is

[1:19:36] this progression?"

[1:19:37] >> Let's talk about the wingsuit and the

[1:19:38] 9-V battery a little bit more because

[1:19:40] you talked about the state that you were

[1:19:42] in not just during but in the 6 months

[1:19:45] or so afterwards.

[1:19:46] >> So,

[1:19:47] that's not going to be the long tail of

[1:19:50] adrenaline, I'm guessing. I don't think

[1:19:51] you were walking around for 6 months

[1:19:53] like amped on life completely.

[1:19:55] >> Oh, no, the opposite.

[1:19:55] >> able to dial in. Could you talk a little

[1:19:58] bit more about that? Did you ever

[1:19:59] take some time to think about like,

[1:20:01] "What is this?" And did you get that

[1:20:03] after a gunfight? Did you get that after

[1:20:07] uh

[1:20:07] you know, a funeral? Uh you've gone to

[1:20:10] more than your fair share of those.

[1:20:11] Like, what do you think's going on

[1:20:13] there?

[1:20:13] >> It was the opposite of walking around

[1:20:15] adrenalized. Uh people oftentimes have

[1:20:18] asked me, you know, "What does it feel

[1:20:19] like to be an adrenaline junkie?" And

[1:20:20] I'd say, "I don't know. I don't feel

[1:20:22] like I am one. I might participate in

[1:20:24] some things that from the outside would

[1:20:25] be viewed as people seeking adrenaline,

[1:20:28] but I don't

[1:20:29] I don't like that hyper-adrenalized

[1:20:32] feeling where

[1:20:34] you know, well and it could be different

[1:20:36] for anybody and everybody whether it's

[1:20:38] at the taste and copper in your mouth or

[1:20:41] the heart rate or the you know, feeling

[1:20:43] your hair. I don't I don't like that

[1:20:45] sensation and that's not what I felt on

[1:20:47] the edge just was scared shitless quite

[1:20:49] frankly.

[1:20:50] It's not an adrenaline and it would be

[1:20:52] the opposite of walking around feeling

[1:20:53] like that.

[1:20:55] I would describe it as feeling

[1:20:57] settled

[1:20:59] or anchored.

[1:21:00] >> Mhm.

[1:21:00] >> And the ability to just

[1:21:05] sit into it and think clear. It's It's

[1:21:08] like having a stereo dial and the static

[1:21:11] and you're just

[1:21:13] twisting it down.

[1:21:15] And then the BS of life and it comes

[1:21:16] back up and it comes back up and it

[1:21:17] comes back up and you go on another one

[1:21:19] of those trips or I I should say I would

[1:21:21] go on another one of those trips and it

[1:21:22] would it would dial it down.

[1:21:24] After a gunfight it's not like the

[1:21:27] movies. Most of the time it is so fast

[1:21:29] but it's such a road decision.

[1:21:32] But it's high adrenaline. Presumably.

[1:21:35] Moderate.

[1:21:36] I think it would depend on how much time

[1:21:38] you had to make a call. I mean, it most

[1:21:41] of it is

[1:21:44] or in many times a broad example. Come

[1:21:46] around a corner binary threat or not

[1:21:48] threat. There's not a whole lot of time

[1:21:50] to get ramped I mean, you got to make a

[1:21:52] decision right there. I think maybe

[1:21:53] afterwards you might get an adrenaline

[1:21:55] dump

[1:21:56] or it it might catch up with you

[1:21:58] and I and I don't I can't really think

[1:22:01] of any anytime I've thought about an

[1:22:03] adrenaline dump or I've seen it is

[1:22:04] people actually kind of melt a little

[1:22:06] bit the far side of that where they just

[1:22:08] >> Mhm.

[1:22:09] >> their performance degrades for sure.

[1:22:10] They're on the other side of the bell

[1:22:11] curve of performance.

[1:22:13] I didn't see anybody

[1:22:15] experiencing that or maybe they were

[1:22:16] doing that when we were on a helicopter

[1:22:18] or vehicle on the way out. Not that much

[1:22:19] adrenaline. And again, it

[1:22:22] it's just not as much time as movies and

[1:22:24] TV shows make it out. It's just not that

[1:22:26] It's not that sexy.

[1:22:28] When you got back, I would say for

[1:22:30] myself,

[1:22:32] you know, if the if the optic of time

[1:22:34] starts coming in [clears throat] at

[1:22:35] about the 1-minute out, I would say

[1:22:37] as you were to get back

[1:22:40] and it and I would say for most guys

[1:22:41] it's more of a routine,

[1:22:43] but taking gear off a certain way, hang

[1:22:46] it up, uniform off, shower, food. I

[1:22:49] think you find that settling spot once

[1:22:51] the guys come back together, generally

[1:22:52] communally over a meal or back in your

[1:22:54] hut, whatever. Your team, you know, we

[1:22:55] would usually have it separated by team.

[1:22:57] I think you would find your way to that

[1:22:59] settled space as well, too. So, similar.

[1:23:02] I don't know if it was as powerful,

[1:23:03] though.

[1:23:03] >> Let me ask it slightly differently.

[1:23:05] Coming back from a wingsuit jump and it

[1:23:07] went well. Everybody lived, including

[1:23:10] you. Maybe learned a few things. Maybe

[1:23:13] some errors you were able to correct,

[1:23:14] which is also learning, but you you feel

[1:23:16] good about it. How do you sleep that

[1:23:17] night?

[1:23:18] >> Oh, so good.

[1:23:19] >> Mhm.

[1:23:19] >> Yeah.

[1:23:20] >> [clears throat]

[1:23:20] >> Mhm.

[1:23:21] >> Yeah, probably better sleep.

[1:23:23] Um

[1:23:24] I see Trying to think about sleep. God,

[1:23:27] you mean you're going out so

[1:23:28] repetitively?

[1:23:31] Yeah. I mean, guys are

[1:23:33] Is it Well,

[1:23:35] wasn't an unhealthy reliance upon

[1:23:37] ambient. Is that sleep or hallucinating?

[1:23:39] >> [laughter]

[1:23:39] >> I mean,

[1:23:39] >> Ambient can induce

[1:23:41] some amnesia,

[1:23:43] but you know, it it has its place, but I

[1:23:45] it's not it's not the first line of

[1:23:46] attack. I you know, I I know SEAL Team

[1:23:48] guys like like to ambient and I think

[1:23:50] nowadays they're using things less um

[1:23:52] >> It's what they had available.

[1:23:53] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:23:53] >> And I mean, unrestricted in a bowl, take

[1:23:56] what you want.

[1:23:57] >> I know people who would take two.

[1:24:00] Unpackage another two, put them next to

[1:24:03] their bed with a little cup of water for

[1:24:05] the middle of the night when they woke

[1:24:06] up but

[1:24:08] I don't think four is healthy. I'm not a

[1:24:09] doctor, but I don't think four is

[1:24:11] healthy.

[1:24:11] >> are better ways, but but when you're out

[1:24:13] with your wingsuit buddies and you you

[1:24:15] guys had a great jump that day and

[1:24:16] you're going back, everyone knocks out.

[1:24:18] >> You're wiped. You're just wiped.

[1:24:20] >> And so for that next 6 months you're

[1:24:21] feeling like you're in a you're in a

[1:24:22] really good space.

[1:24:24] >> You would feel it changing at like the

[1:24:26] 3-month mark, but for for a nice 3

[1:24:28] months for me it was it was clean. You

[1:24:30] could just think better.

[1:24:31] And I I don't know the mechanism behind

[1:24:33] it other than maybe your brain

[1:24:35] gets better at parsing out the [ __ ]

[1:24:38] that doesn't actually matter and as you

[1:24:40] get that focus, so once it identifies it

[1:24:42] in that moment you hold on to it less. I

[1:24:44] don't know what's going on there.

[1:24:45] >> It's still a mystery. You know, I've

[1:24:46] spent some time looking at this in

[1:24:48] advance of this conversation and the the

[1:24:50] simple theory would be it raises your

[1:24:53] stress threshold. So the things that get

[1:24:55] you to secrete adrenaline like everyday

[1:24:56] trivial things, that's not happening

[1:24:58] anymore. Okay, that's a reasonable

[1:24:59] theory. That's actually what what the

[1:25:01] ice bath will do. That's what a morning

[1:25:02] workout will do. But turns out that's

[1:25:04] not what happens when in when people go

[1:25:06] into these flow states and you get this

[1:25:07] long tail of a of flow opportunities

[1:25:10] because the tendency when people's

[1:25:13] stress threshold goes up too high is

[1:25:15] that uh they tend to engage in a lot of

[1:25:18] meaningless behaviors cuz they're not

[1:25:20] stressful enough. You want the sensation

[1:25:22] of like that was a tough conversation

[1:25:24] and I've got to deal with it or that was

[1:25:26] a tough conversation. I just need to

[1:25:27] avoid this person, right? Like this is

[1:25:29] just not a healthy you know, it's stress

[1:25:31] is a good indicator of of pain and

[1:25:33] sometimes it's a psychological pain that

[1:25:35] we need to overcome ourselves. Sometimes

[1:25:36] there's psychological pain we need to

[1:25:37] exercise from our lives. So it sounds

[1:25:40] very different than that. And the reason

[1:25:41] I'm so interested in this is it's the

[1:25:43] exact same way that seems to come up a

[1:25:46] lot on this podcast that like Rick Rubin

[1:25:48] has described

[1:25:49] after putting together an album with

[1:25:52] some amazing artists where they've just

[1:25:54] been working and working and working.

[1:25:57] It's not just the time

[1:26:00] while doing the work, it's in the it's

[1:26:02] in the months that follow. It's like

[1:26:03] this peace. It's like it's the post flow

[1:26:06] state something. We don't have a name

[1:26:07] for this.

[1:26:08] >> And it's almost like it lowers your

[1:26:10] stress threshold. Not it because I agree

[1:26:13] with you. If if it just raised your

[1:26:14] stress threshold,

[1:26:16] I would have just continued to do

[1:26:18] riskier and riskier behaviors, but at

[1:26:20] the end, I feel like it lowers it and

[1:26:23] just strips away the BS stress,

[1:26:26] and makes you less likely to invest in

[1:26:28] those other potentially nonsense

[1:26:30] high-risk behaviors. I have no ability

[1:26:32] to describe it whatsoever. And again, I

[1:26:34] didn't realize what that headspace was

[1:26:36] giving me while I was in the military. I

[1:26:39] knew something was missing after I had

[1:26:40] gotten out, and I think a lot of guys

[1:26:41] find themselves in that kind of abyss of

[1:26:44] how do I replicate this?

[1:26:46] Spoiler alert, you can't really, and

[1:26:47] they have to deal with that and work

[1:26:49] their way through that. And I'm not

[1:26:50] recommending

[1:26:52] that wingsuit skydiving or base jumping

[1:26:53] is the path for guys getting out. And I

[1:26:55] specifically wrote about this.

[1:26:57] I've seen people who can do this in art,

[1:27:00] getting lost in creating something, or

[1:27:02] yoga, or meditation, or ice bath, or

[1:27:04] sauna, or I found a lot of it in the

[1:27:07] ability to detach and be in the moment

[1:27:08] in jiu-jitsu.

[1:27:10] Even though it's totally artificial

[1:27:11] violence, you're in the moment cuz it

[1:27:13] sucks when your friend chokes you cuz

[1:27:15] you want to choke your friend,

[1:27:16] obviously. But,

[1:27:18] you can find it It doesn't have to be

[1:27:20] prescriptive.

[1:27:22] But, if you can find your way there, I

[1:27:23] don't care that nobody can describe what

[1:27:25] it is. I am here to tell you it will

[1:27:27] change your life if you can find your

[1:27:29] way into that space. It really will.

[1:27:32] >> There's a wonderful book, um, in

[1:27:34] addition to yours. Uh, there turns out

[1:27:35] there's another great book out there.

[1:27:37] Um,

[1:27:37] >> How dare someone

[1:27:38] >> No no audio version, but it's called The

[1:27:39] Secret Pulse of Time, and it's about

[1:27:41] time perception. And so, the idea that

[1:27:44] comes to mind that maybe we could talk

[1:27:46] about is perhaps

[1:27:48] these

[1:27:49] endeavors, whether or not it's

[1:27:50] wingsuiting, or producing an album, or

[1:27:52] painting, or gardening, or whatever it

[1:27:54] is, jiu-jitsu, whatever it is that

[1:27:55] somebody does to access this flow state

[1:27:57] and get this gets this long tail of

[1:27:59] post-flow benefit, whatever we

[1:28:02] what whatever that is. We don't have a

[1:28:03] name for it, again. It seems to

[1:28:04] calibrate our time perception is one

[1:28:07] idea that perhaps brings us so much into

[1:28:09] each moment that it's almost like our

[1:28:11] ability to capture moments that becomes

[1:28:13] high fidelity. Again, you talked about

[1:28:14] getting the static out. Right? And then

[1:28:17] when we go back into everyday life, it's

[1:28:18] almost like we're perfectly calibrated.

[1:28:20] This is I'm stating a theory here. So,

[1:28:22] now you wake up the next morning, you're

[1:28:23] home, and your kid comes in and they're

[1:28:25] talking about something, and you're

[1:28:26] thinking, and we'll get back to toilet

[1:28:28] paper in a little bit. You'll be like,

[1:28:29] "Listen, dude, you're talking about

[1:28:30] this, but you didn't take [laughter]

[1:28:31] care of the toilet paper." This will

[1:28:32] become relevant in a moment. You read

[1:28:34] Andy's I've never thought so much about

[1:28:35] toilet paper rolls in the bathroom and

[1:28:37] how they're stacked. My girlfriend and I

[1:28:39] had a conversation about it the other

[1:28:40] day. It's because of Andy's book. That

[1:28:42] will all make sense in a few moments.

[1:28:43] But, it's almost like you can still be

[1:28:45] in that real world stuff, but your time

[1:28:48] perception is adjusted so that you know

[1:28:51] what you're doing. It's just that thing.

[1:28:53] So, then when you pivot to the next

[1:28:54] thing, you need to sit down and do some

[1:28:55] work, it's almost like you can adjust

[1:28:57] your your your frame rate appropriately.

[1:29:00] It's like it pulls you into that.

[1:29:02] >> It It allows you to sink into those

[1:29:05] things

[1:29:06] and digest better, to think better.

[1:29:10] The yeah, the clarity of thought was

[1:29:12] just and it would change how I thought

[1:29:14] about

[1:29:15] an argument or a conversation, and it

[1:29:18] would allow me to look at it from a

[1:29:19] different perspective. And I have no

[1:29:21] idea why that was the case, but I agree

[1:29:24] with what you're saying. I think there

[1:29:24] might be some aspect of that. The

[1:29:26] fidelity

[1:29:27] and the ability to truly see clearly in

[1:29:29] that moment, pulling you or anchoring

[1:29:32] you into that. There's something there.

[1:29:34] I don't know.

[1:29:35] A really cool paper

[1:29:37] came out just the other day showing that

[1:29:39] when

[1:29:40] we're stressed,

[1:29:43] prior memories, while we can still

[1:29:45] access them, we can't make um insightful

[1:29:47] connections between things. And I won't

[1:29:49] describe the whole experiment. It was

[1:29:50] really cool. They basically have people

[1:29:51] reme- remember pairs of of objects, and

[1:29:54] then there's some link between the two

[1:29:55] pairs. So, like it would be like apple

[1:29:57] yerba mate, and there'll be a yerba mate

[1:30:00] uh wing suit. And then at some point

[1:30:01] later, you need to link, you know, the

[1:30:03] wing suit to the apple. Right? You know,

[1:30:04] it conceptually, not just that way. They

[1:30:07] they up from basic things like I just

[1:30:09] described. And And as you ramp up

[1:30:10] people's levels of stress,

[1:30:12] you essentially lose the ability to make

[1:30:14] these connected insights. And this

[1:30:16] speaks to the the hardwiring and the

[1:30:18] software that the brain uses. I almost

[1:30:20] wonder whether or not your stress

[1:30:22] threshold, as you said, is brought down

[1:30:23] so that you can now have novel insights.

[1:30:25] Like, "Oh, this conversation with my son

[1:30:26] about the toilet paper is actually

[1:30:28] important

[1:30:29] >> Yeah.

[1:30:29] >> in [clears throat] a way that isn't just

[1:30:30] me being annoyed." And and I feel like

[1:30:32] maybe maybe be fun to explore this as

[1:30:34] the science evolves with you you know,

[1:30:36] and and talk about it more cuz I think

[1:30:38] >> Yeah.

[1:30:38] >> the reason I'm so obsessed with this is

[1:30:40] for two reasons. One is navigating

[1:30:42] everyday life,

[1:30:44] which is

[1:30:45] a lot. It's a lot of what people are

[1:30:47] challenged with. It's so vital. The

[1:30:49] other is how to navigate the hard stuff

[1:30:53] in life. So, I want to get to both of

[1:30:55] those things and talk about some

[1:30:56] examples from your life and from your

[1:30:58] book. But before we do that, I feel like

[1:30:59] we're obligated to talk about toilet

[1:31:00] paper.

[1:31:02] >> The number of [clears throat] pictures I

[1:31:03] have received via email

[1:31:06] of people taking pictures of their kids'

[1:31:08] bathrooms

[1:31:10] and and basically saying, "I thought I

[1:31:12] was the only one."

[1:31:13] >> [laughter]

[1:31:16] >> All right, this is really seeming like

[1:31:17] an inside joke now for those that read

[1:31:19] Andy's. What you got? All right, we will

[1:31:20] get back to time perception and

[1:31:22] navigating the everyday and the hard

[1:31:23] things in life. I won't forget. We'll

[1:31:25] spin that plate in the background. It's

[1:31:26] spinning.

[1:31:28] The toilet paper section, yes, it made

[1:31:30] me laugh. It also made me think about

[1:31:32] the little things I do each day and the

[1:31:35] little teeny itty-bitty shortcuts that

[1:31:37] I'm taking and how those ratchet up. So,

[1:31:40] tell us about toilet paper.

[1:31:41] >> It always takes longer to do it wrong is

[1:31:43] the bottom line. And we all are tempted

[1:31:45] with these shortcuts. So,

[1:31:46] >> That's the mantra we have to remember.

[1:31:48] >> My children, their bathroom,

[1:31:50] if there was going to be an Ebola

[1:31:52] outbreak in the US, it might start

[1:31:53] there. I don't know anything about

[1:31:54] Ebola, but I feel like

[1:31:56] it might start there. So,

[1:31:58] as with most bathrooms, there's toilet

[1:31:59] paper rolls. And

[1:32:02] my kids

[1:32:04] when they finish a toilet paper roll,

[1:32:05] instead of popping it off the holder,

[1:32:09] taking it and going and getting a new

[1:32:11] one, they go get a new one.

[1:32:13] And they sit it right there. So, it's

[1:32:15] like

[1:32:17] empty toilet paper roll

[1:32:19] up against the wall.

[1:32:21] You would think

[1:32:23] that when this one is done, they would

[1:32:25] take them both. But, instead they do

[1:32:29] this.

[1:32:30] So, there's two against the wall, and

[1:32:31] then the other roll goes here.

[1:32:34] Now, I can't use this one cuz this is

[1:32:35] open. But, when this roll is done, you

[1:32:38] would think

[1:32:40] that they wouldn't create a pyramid,

[1:32:42] which historically, from my

[1:32:43] understanding of math, isn't great to

[1:32:45] balance things on. But, they will make a

[1:32:46] pyramid

[1:32:48] and then put this up here, and

[1:32:49] inevitably this roll goes forward, hits

[1:32:51] the ground behind the toilet, and then

[1:32:53] they start screaming from the bathroom,

[1:32:55] "I need toilet paper, Dad." To which I

[1:32:56] respond, "You got yourself there. You

[1:32:59] can figure it out on your own."

[1:33:01] >> This is all of your kids?

[1:33:03] >> Yeah, for sure.

[1:33:04] >> Okay.

[1:33:05] >> Yeah.

[1:33:05] >> And they're all your kids?

[1:33:07] >> Yeah.

[1:33:07] >> All right. I'm not I'm not really saying

[1:33:09] anything. I'm just

[1:33:10] >> I'm [laughter] just just And so, the

[1:33:12] point of all of this is, if you don't

[1:33:14] want to be somebody screaming for a

[1:33:16] toilet paper roll,

[1:33:17] it actually takes less time to go and

[1:33:21] when you're out of toilet paper,

[1:33:22] disconnect it, throw it away on the way,

[1:33:25] and bring another one in. It's the same

[1:33:27] thing as laundry. Do you laundry?

[1:33:30] I'm not perfect at this by any stretch.

[1:33:32] But, do your laundry, fold your laundry,

[1:33:34] put it away. That always takes less time

[1:33:37] than do your laundry in a pile, then

[1:33:39] you're in a pinch, and you're looking

[1:33:40] for your t-shirt, or whatever shirt you

[1:33:42] want to wear.

[1:33:42] >> And I own a lot of black clothing.

[1:33:44] >> Oh, my god. I do, too. It's all blues,

[1:33:46] blacks, and the occasional red. The red

[1:33:48] ones are easy to find in that particular

[1:33:49] cohort. But, otherwise, you're in there

[1:33:51] to and it's socks inside out, so you

[1:33:53] don't know if it's got the right logo,

[1:33:54] there's socks coming out of the sleeves.

[1:33:57] Five x the amount of time that would

[1:33:58] take you as opposed to just wash your

[1:34:01] laundry, dry it, fold it, put it away.

[1:34:04] I have tried to express this message to

[1:34:06] my children to the limits of my

[1:34:08] vocabulary.

[1:34:09] I went into my daughter's bathroom

[1:34:11] before we came up here.

[1:34:14] There was three rolls of toilet paper.

[1:34:16] Two of them were empty and wedged on the

[1:34:17] side, and the third one was vertical.

[1:34:19] And I just closed the door and walked

[1:34:20] away, pretend like it didn't happen.

[1:34:22] They don't They don't listen to me.

[1:34:24] It always takes longer to do it wrong.

[1:34:27] And those are the little shortcuts that

[1:34:28] we all take. We tell ourselves,

[1:34:31] "I'll do it later." Or I I I don't have

[1:34:33] time to do it right now. You We all have

[1:34:34] the same amount of time. It's where

[1:34:36] you're allocating your time.

[1:34:37] Do it up front, and I assure you like

[1:34:40] the McRaven speech about making your

[1:34:41] bed.

[1:34:43] The number of parents that probably

[1:34:46] thought that was life-changing was just

[1:34:47] amazing. Like, "Yes, somebody else is

[1:34:49] telling my kid to make the bed." It's

[1:34:50] not actually about that. It's about

[1:34:52] having the discipline to do the little

[1:34:53] things, and it is way better at the end

[1:34:55] of the night when you're tired to come

[1:34:57] back to a bed that is made and ready for

[1:34:59] you to hop into than having to Well, not

[1:35:01] most people would do this, but make it

[1:35:02] first and then get into it. But it just

[1:35:03] gets worse and worse and worse. And in

[1:35:05] the end, it will take you longer to

[1:35:06] correct for that than the individual

[1:35:08] action of just doing it right the first

[1:35:10] time. What's your advice with respect to

[1:35:12] this?

[1:35:15] >> [sighs]

[1:35:17] >> I mean, I can give you the advice, but I

[1:35:18] also don't follow it all the time,

[1:35:20] either. Every Every single decision that

[1:35:22] you have in front of you in your life

[1:35:24] will have a slightly easier and a

[1:35:25] slightly harder choice. Make the

[1:35:27] slightly harder one more often than the

[1:35:28] slightly easier one. And the thing I

[1:35:31] liked a lot about McRaven's messaging

[1:35:33] around the bed is that it started your

[1:35:35] day with an a small act of discipline

[1:35:38] that could seem meaningless, but then

[1:35:39] what if you pair another small one with

[1:35:41] that? And then another small one with

[1:35:43] that. I think that can really set you up

[1:35:45] for success in your day. And yes, at the

[1:35:47] end of the day, boom, your bed's ready

[1:35:48] to go, and you can hop back into it. It

[1:35:49] just feels better to get into a made

[1:35:51] bed.

[1:35:52] >> It took me a while to realize that most

[1:35:55] of the people that I

[1:35:57] could tell were really squared away in

[1:35:59] their jobs and because I happen to know

[1:36:01] their personal lives, too, also their

[1:36:02] personal lives,

[1:36:04] they're pretty tidy people.

[1:36:06] >> Yeah.

[1:36:07] >> Uh whether by sheer will or by reflex,

[1:36:10] they're just pretty tidy.

[1:36:12] >> I don't think it's everybody reflex. I

[1:36:13] think it's always by always by will.

[1:36:16] And it's not fun. And I'm Don't get me

[1:36:19] wrong. I'm not I'm not perfect at it,

[1:36:20] but if I can look back at my lives or my

[1:36:22] life at times where things were

[1:36:26] a little bit less

[1:36:28] effort involved in and being successful

[1:36:31] or making traction, it wasn't in chaos.

[1:36:34] It was in a little bit more of a

[1:36:35] controlled environment by me, again,

[1:36:37] controlling what I can control, which is

[1:36:39] my actions in the morning. You know, it

[1:36:42] If you sit down in front of a desk and

[1:36:43] you can't even find the thing that

[1:36:44] you're looking for to do the work on it,

[1:36:46] I I how I don't know anybody who has

[1:36:48] become ultra successful in life with

[1:36:50] that model.

[1:36:51] But, I think we could both sit down and

[1:36:53] talk about some people who are nailing

[1:36:54] it, and I think the vast majority of

[1:36:56] them would fall into that tidy category

[1:36:58] or disciplined category. But, it's micro

[1:37:01] discipline. They can make it seem as if

[1:37:03] you have this macro discipline, but

[1:37:05] that's not actually what it is. It's the

[1:37:06] little things that nobody sees. That's

[1:37:08] what leads you to that end state.

[1:37:10] >> It's interesting. Earlier we were

[1:37:11] talking about social pressure and um

[1:37:13] alcohol and social media. You know, it

[1:37:17] it's

[1:37:18] interesting to me that there seems to be

[1:37:21] some degree of social pressure to not do

[1:37:25] the slightly harder thing. You know,

[1:37:27] like [snorts] what we're what we're

[1:37:28] describing now, I never get into uh

[1:37:30] thinking about what the comments would

[1:37:31] be, but I

[1:37:33] I'd be willing to bet one pinky that

[1:37:36] a fair number of people are either

[1:37:38] thinking or commenting directly,

[1:37:41] "Yeah, like that's really neurotic. Like

[1:37:42] loosen up."

[1:37:43] >> Yeah, take a picture of your [ __ ]

[1:37:44] room and And it to me. I bet it looks

[1:37:46] like [ __ ]

[1:37:46] >> [laughter]

[1:37:47] >> Exactly. My dad's first generation

[1:37:49] immigrant from South America and and on

[1:37:51] that never forget when in it was in the

[1:37:53] mid-90s

[1:37:55] he was probably took me to a movie in an

[1:37:57] attempt to repair a relationship and

[1:37:58] eventually worked out. We're doing

[1:37:59] great. [laughter] Talk to him today. I

[1:38:01] called him today. We're on such great

[1:38:02] terms. It feels good to be able to say

[1:38:03] it. And I'll never forget we were at the

[1:38:06] movies and there were these people

[1:38:07] walking by and they were wearing kind of

[1:38:09] like baggy sweats and flip-flops or

[1:38:12] something and he stopped me and he's a

[1:38:14] very orderly guy and he said

[1:38:17] "See that? That's the beginning of the

[1:38:19] end."

[1:38:20] And I said, "What do you mean?"

[1:38:21] >> [laughter]

[1:38:21] >> And he said

[1:38:23] "I come from a third world country

[1:38:25] when people start going to the movies in

[1:38:27] their pajamas it's the beginning of the

[1:38:29] end." And I thought, "Hey, this is like

[1:38:31] you couldn't be more out He's I I

[1:38:33] actually think he's right." What he was

[1:38:34] talking about is that that the when the

[1:38:37] social pressure is not sufficient to

[1:38:39] like keep people feeling as if they need

[1:38:41] to show up as if they're in public,

[1:38:43] right?

[1:38:44] >> And he might have been a bit extreme,

[1:38:45] but you know, when when that social

[1:38:46] pressure isn't there, then the social

[1:38:48] pressure eventually erodes around what

[1:38:50] people can say, what they can do and

[1:38:51] then I do think that era of kind of

[1:38:52] Jerry Springer daytime television where

[1:38:54] people would watch people who were way

[1:38:57] more screwed up than them so they could

[1:38:59] feel a lot less screwed up. What's that

[1:39:01] called? Schadenfreude when you take

[1:39:03] >> pleasure in other people's pain?

[1:39:05] >> Yeah. Well, I think that there's that's

[1:39:07] that's the word for it for sure, but I

[1:39:09] think this is

[1:39:10] kind of adjacent to that where it's it's

[1:39:12] like giving yourself license to not feel

[1:39:14] that bad because like

[1:39:16] like either they're just so neurotic

[1:39:18] that I won't anything to do with that

[1:39:20] kind of world where everything's right

[1:39:21] angles or like well, at least I'm not in

[1:39:24] total squalor. And this is where I think

[1:39:26] that you know, we hear so much about oh,

[1:39:28] everyone's presenting them best self the

[1:39:29] their best selves on social media. Also

[1:39:31] a problem to seem perfect cuz no one's

[1:39:33] perfect, but I do think that there is

[1:39:35] this drift where we go well, like

[1:39:39] it's not going to crush my life with

[1:39:40] that toilet paper thing. Like if it were

[1:39:42] going to cost me my relationship or, you

[1:39:43] know, my allowance, you know, your kids

[1:39:45] might think about it differently, right?

[1:39:46] >> Yeah.

[1:39:46] >> But, so I think but what I got from your

[1:39:49] book this this section of your book is

[1:39:50] that it's because the consequences are

[1:39:53] so small

[1:39:55] at the individual level, but the upside

[1:39:57] is so big

[1:39:58] >> Yes.

[1:39:59] >> it when you, you know, collect these