DF Direct Q+A: Steam Machine - The Big Price/Performance/Form Factor Discussion

[00:02] Hello there and a warm if not very very

[00:05] very warm welcome to the latest edition

[00:07] of the DF direct Q&A show. Yes, we're

[00:10] enduring a heat wave here. So um yes,

[00:12] recording this under bright lights is uh

[00:14] just the ticket. Uh joining me for this

[00:17] particular show, it is Will Jud. Hello.

[00:20] >> Hello. Good to be here. Looking forward

[00:22] to talking about the steam machine with

[00:24] somebody that actually owns a steam

[00:26] machine. Incredible.

[00:28] >> Yes. And there it is. Uh just just over

[00:30] there. There we go. You can see it right

[00:32] there. Tiny little cube there. Awesome

[00:33] stuff. Um yes. Um let's just get

[00:36] straight onto it. But first, this this

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[01:51] Okay, so obviously the pricing of Steam

[01:52] Machine, I think it's been the biggest

[01:54] negative factor. I think we highlighted

[01:56] that in the review. Um, and obviously

[01:58] the discourse surrounding the machine is

[02:00] basically defined by that price point.

[02:02] Um, man, we've got uh a lot of points to

[02:06] cover on this one. Let's just take this

[02:08] question from Marcus. Hi, I found him an

[02:10] exclamation point. The Steam Machine

[02:12] price has landed and wow, the price

[02:14] debate has been adnauseium has been had

[02:16] adnauseium though that is not really

[02:18] what I wanted to ask about. Part of the

[02:19] value proposition seems to be form

[02:21] factor integration and library access.

[02:23] My dad is not a serious PC gamer, but I

[02:26] already have a large Steam library, so

[02:28] family sharing would give him an instant

[02:30] pool of games without needing to build a

[02:32] library from scratch. I could buy or

[02:34] build him a traditional gaming PC, but

[02:36] realistically, he does not want a tower

[02:38] or Windows Windows setup or something

[02:39] that he feels like a hobby project.

[02:42] Yeah, fair point. Um, the appeal of the

[02:44] Steam Machine is is a neat whisper quiet

[02:47] little cube of Steam OS that offers

[02:49] something much closer to a console style

[02:51] experience while still giving access to

[02:53] the flexibility of PC gaming. So, my

[02:55] question is uh how should we think about

[02:57] the value of that kind of product? If

[02:58] performance is broadly in line with

[03:00] similarly priced small PCs or DIY

[03:03] builds, is it actually a strength that

[03:05] Valve is delivering something this

[03:07] compact, standardized, and console-like

[03:09] for roughly the same money? I hope you

[03:11] have a great week. ation point. Um, this

[03:15] is an interesting question, isn't it,

[03:16] Will? Because fundamentally, um, the

[03:18] key, um, criticism of the Steam machine

[03:21] is the fact that it does start at $1,049

[03:24] and you can build, uh, an equivalent

[03:27] machine, a more powerful machine for the

[03:29] same price. However, pretty much all of

[03:32] those machines that I've seen are kind

[03:34] of like your your standard um, PC towers

[03:37] or mini towers. Um, small form factor.

[03:40] even then you're not dealing with like a

[03:42] you know a 6 in 6 in cubed little device

[03:46] like the steam machine over there. Um

[03:50] what do you make of this uh discussion

[03:52] about pricing?

[03:54] >> I mean yeah I think it's obviously very

[03:56] unfortunate for anyone that was looking

[03:58] forward to it to suddenly have the

[04:00] prospect of uh a machine that is much

[04:02] much more than we kind of expected and

[04:04] that Valve pitched as being a kind of

[04:06] console equivalent device. And yeah, I

[04:10] mean, I think that's just kind of the

[04:11] reality of the day, unfortunately. And I

[04:14] think, you know, PS5, Switch to uh

[04:18] Series X, and the upcoming consoles are

[04:20] all going to likely go up in price based

[04:24] on our projections. It seems like this

[04:26] kind of crisis is going to continue for

[04:27] a long time. So clearly Valve have baked

[04:30] in maybe, you know, three months, six

[04:32] months of price increases into what it

[04:36] uh, you know, what their cost price is

[04:38] for the the Steam Machine, and they've

[04:39] come up with this, you know, $1,049

[04:42] price to kind of make sure they don't

[04:44] have to change it immediately. Um, and

[04:47] yeah, it's expensive. There's no way

[04:48] around it. But I think, you know,

[04:51] >> I think Marcus and Marcus' dad are in a

[04:54] really good situation here in that

[04:55] they're going to benefit really well

[04:57] from the Steam Machine. You know, it

[04:59] sounds like they don't need necessarily

[05:01] the the most powerful PC that you could

[05:03] buy for the money. They need something

[05:05] that is, you know, flexible, works

[05:08] easily, integrates easily into a living

[05:10] room, and it takes advantage of the fact

[05:12] that Marcus already has a big Steam

[05:14] library, and there's a really good

[05:16] family sharing option. So, you know,

[05:18] from that point of view, obviously

[05:20] you're paying more, but you are getting

[05:21] some stuff in return that you don't get

[05:23] from a standard PC build. And I think

[05:25] that's fairly reasonable. Um, yeah. What

[05:28] do you think?

[05:29] >> Well, uh, it's a tricky one, right?

[05:31] Because, um, uh, there's been

[05:34] comparisons to PlayStation 5 and PS5

[05:36] Pro. The PlayStation 5 from a GPU

[05:38] perspective is a little bit more

[05:39] powerful. From a CPU perspective, it's

[05:41] less powerful. Uh the PS5 Pro um

[05:44] obviously that's still cheaper but has a

[05:47] much better GPU and the gap between the

[05:50] CPUs closes up a little bit. Um the

[05:52] issue with these comparisons with with I

[05:54] mean there's all manner of comparisons

[05:56] going on here and the issue with them is

[05:57] that we're comparing um apples to

[05:59] oranges. So let's consider first of all

[06:02] the PlayStation side of things. First of

[06:04] all, you know, and it's kind of borne

[06:06] out by Marcus' case here. um if he

[06:09] bought his dad a PlayStation 5, he's not

[06:11] going to be able to play his PC games on

[06:13] it. So, you know, this is kind of like,

[06:15] you know, it's it's it kind of that sort

[06:17] of argument only applies to a specific

[06:19] person who doesn't have an existing

[06:21] library of games anywhere. So, I don't

[06:25] understand. I mean, I think in terms of

[06:27] like um building out a console

[06:29] comparison in terms of like the

[06:31] performance of the machine, the

[06:32] performance profile of the Steam machine

[06:34] to get an idea of what it can do, I

[06:36] think that's entirely valid and that's

[06:38] what we did. But, you know, as I said in

[06:39] the review, you can't play your PC games

[06:42] on it. So, it's kind of academic. It's

[06:44] more about, you know, getting the sort

[06:46] of laying the sort of expectation level

[06:48] of what we would have expected from that

[06:50] hardware. So, you know, console

[06:52] comparisons valid to a certain extent,

[06:55] but not really borne out by the real

[06:57] world. Now, you have the PC comparisons

[07:00] where, you know, we did it as well. You

[07:02] know, it's kind of like, well, what kind

[07:04] of PC can you build for the same money?

[07:06] And the answer is um pretty much the

[07:09] same thing, but you can put in an um

[07:11] RX960 XT uh which is a much more

[07:15] powerful proposition than the Steam

[07:17] machine. However, are are we comparing

[07:20] like by like for like rather when you're

[07:22] sort of dealing with tiny little box

[07:25] there and and sort of mini tower PC? I

[07:28] don't think we are. Um that's that's

[07:31] kind of you know the whole point of the

[07:33] Steam Machine I think was to kind of

[07:34] like move PC gaming into different

[07:37] spaces, specifically the living room I

[07:39] guess in this case. And um those

[07:41] machines do not meet that criteria. They

[07:44] don't do that really. Um secondly,

[07:46] there's a lot of other little things in

[07:47] there. you know the um the acoustics

[07:50] just awesome. I mean we we are running a

[07:52] heatwave here. I was doing some FSR4

[07:55] testing on Steam Machine yesterday and

[07:57] it was still operating just fine despite

[07:59] the fact that within my office it was in

[08:01] excess of 30° C. you know, if that was a

[08:04] a PC, that would have been like, you

[08:05] know, fans at maximum warp

[08:09] and even then, you know, maybe things

[08:10] would have uh sort of, you know, uh the

[08:13] performance would have dropped a bit,

[08:15] but um yeah, so are we comparing like

[08:18] like for like there? Not really. Um and

[08:21] then you have kind of like um building

[08:22] your miniITX machine. I think that's a

[08:25] fair shout, right? because you can you

[08:27] can build a living room PC, but at the

[08:29] same time um what's the warranty

[08:32] situation like? You know, there's

[08:35] there's a reason why um pre-builts

[08:37] exist. And um yeah, you kind of want to

[08:41] have a sort of backup of um assurances

[08:43] that the thing is going to work uh and

[08:46] and be sort of serviced if something

[08:49] goes wrong. And secondly, there's the

[08:51] concept that maybe you don't want to

[08:53] build a PC. Crazy thought, I know.

[08:56] So, one thing I've been thinking about

[08:58] is that, you know, even when you do make

[09:00] this miniITX PC, and we speced out a few

[09:02] for the website, is that you're going to

[09:05] end up with something that's probably a

[09:06] little bit more expensive than the Steam

[09:08] Machine when all is said and done. You

[09:10] got to build it yourself. And you're

[09:11] getting something that's really unlikely

[09:13] to be as small as the Steam Machine is.

[09:16] Like even a small miniITX PC is often,

[09:19] you know, in the 20 L kind of range and

[09:21] the Steam Machine is what, like 4 L. So

[09:24] there's a huge gulf in, you know, where

[09:27] you can stick that and how nice it looks

[09:29] and everything else, right? So I don't

[09:32] know, obviously, you know, Valve are

[09:35] making it as easy as possible for people

[09:36] to go out and make their own mini ITX

[09:39] PCs and have the other way of doing it,

[09:41] right? So, they're kind of leaving all

[09:43] the options open, which I respect, but

[09:45] obviously having the Steam Machine in

[09:48] such a nice form factor and with all the

[09:50] extra little features it has, like being

[09:52] able to control your TV, there is value

[09:54] for that. And I don't think it's

[09:55] unreasonable for people to say, you know

[09:57] what, that that sounds good to me. Like

[09:59] one point they've made a lot with the um

[10:02] Steam Machine is that it's so much more

[10:04] powerful than the Steam Deck. And people

[10:06] have gotten so much running on that and

[10:08] have had really good experiences with

[10:10] it. And I think we're going to see a

[10:12] similar situation where, you know, the

[10:14] Steam machine comes out and game

[10:16] developers start to target the device a

[10:18] little bit. We have the verified program

[10:20] to know where games are going to run

[10:21] well or not and people are going to be

[10:23] able to get, you know, every last bit of

[10:25] performance out of the thing. So, I

[10:27] think, you know, there's a strong

[10:28] argument to say like this is going to

[10:30] age relatively well,

[10:32] >> right? Yeah. I mean, it all depends what

[10:33] those new consoles do next year and how

[10:35] they're priced. I think fundamentally I

[10:37] think the core problem here, the core

[10:39] issue is that basically Valve didn't

[10:41] want to sell this machine uh at this

[10:43] price point. I think that's the bottom

[10:45] line. They were looking for something

[10:46] else.

[10:47] >> And um when I spoke to Valve, it was

[10:49] kind of like well you know we saw you

[10:50] added like circa 40% price um to the

[10:53] Steam Deck

[10:54] >> and um is it a similar margin for Steam

[10:57] Machine? And they kind of indicated that

[11:00] broadly yes but you know Steam Machine

[11:02] has more memory than Steam Deck etc etc.

[11:05] If you apply the same multiple to um the

[11:07] the $1,049, you start at $750,

[11:11] which is still kind of like um you know,

[11:14] in excess of PlayStation 5 money, but

[11:17] kind of a bit more understandable at

[11:19] that point. You know, it sort of works.

[11:21] And then we found out, you know, um that

[11:24] um Valve simply don't have the sourcing

[11:26] capabilities to get the the same kind of

[11:29] um deals as Sony and Microsoft, etc. And

[11:32] so that's where we are. you know,

[11:34] basically they've they've um they need

[11:36] some to improve logistics, I think, in

[11:38] order to be able to secure those deals.

[11:41] But the promise has not been fulfilled,

[11:43] I guess, is the main problem here, which

[11:44] is kind of like, yes, we're going to

[11:46] bring a console style box and um it's

[11:49] it's built on affordable parts. You

[11:51] know, those AMD CPU and GPU they've got

[11:53] in there, they are essentially salvage

[11:56] parts from other products. And um uh you

[12:00] know the promise was yeah we've put this

[12:02] together uh the form factor is great and

[12:05] um you know pricing should be reasonable

[12:07] I think was that uh was was the basic

[12:10] idea but the pricing for whatever reason

[12:12] isn't reasonable and and we are where we

[12:14] are. Yeah, it it's certainly uh um a bit

[12:18] of a sad situation really, but I guess

[12:21] we were kind of expecting it to happen

[12:23] when we saw the price increases on the

[12:24] on the Steam Deck

[12:26] >> because um they were just crazy high to

[12:29] the point where you looked at like an

[12:31] Asus Rog Alli X, the Xbox Alli X uh

[12:35] handheld and it was like $50 more for so

[12:37] much more. Um yeah, I mean I'm going to

[12:41] be interested to see if the um you know

[12:42] the likes of MSI, Asus, maybe uh you

[12:45] know um the people that assemble

[12:47] pre-builts like Cyber Power come up with

[12:49] their own small form factor machines

[12:51] that that kind of offer the extra

[12:53] performance with a similar um with a

[12:56] similar price point possibly. I mean the

[13:00] build that you put together for the

[13:01] website I thought it was pretty good. Um

[13:04] obviously it's a bit bigger but still

[13:06] kind of fits the remit.

[13:08] >> Yeah. I mean,

[13:10] >> yeah. Um, it's it's just really sad.

[13:14] Let's move on to this question from

[13:15] anxiously chrono figured. Hey, DF crew.

[13:18] I st I struggle to understand who the

[13:20] target audience for the Steam machine

[13:22] is, especially at this price. I admit it

[13:25] looks cool, but so does the Series X.

[13:27] Um, Steam OS is amazing, but if the main

[13:29] aim is to have a nice piece of hardware

[13:31] that provides a good gaming experience

[13:33] in the living room, then the current

[13:35] consoles already do that. It could have

[13:37] been a great entry point into the uh

[13:39] Yeah, it could have been a great entry

[13:40] point into the PC world. And I admit I

[13:43] considered buying one on sale before the

[13:45] Ramageddon and storage aocalypse.

[13:49] But good prices and sales are just a

[13:51] couple more things AI has taken away

[13:53] from us. Cheers. Exclamation point. I

[13:54] think you know basically as as we've

[13:56] already mentioned here, the problem here

[13:58] with that kind of comparison is it you

[14:00] know it kind of suggests that you aren't

[14:02] playing games at the moment. Therefore

[14:04] you don't have an existing library.

[14:05] Therefore, you have the choice to choose

[14:08] an ecosystem. Whereas, you know,

[14:11] basically, I think chances are you're

[14:13] probably already invested in one

[14:14] ecosystem.

[14:16] And um you're going to need to be buying

[14:18] machines within that ecosystem, whether

[14:20] it's PlayStation, Xbox, or PC. So, I

[14:24] think, you know, that's kind of like the

[14:26] target audience for the Steam Machine is

[14:27] the PC gamer who maybe just wants to be

[14:30] able to play fast-free games within the

[14:33] living room. And um I think that was the

[14:36] target audience and I think maybe there

[14:38] was um aspirations of expanding that

[14:41] audience um by providing you know really

[14:45] good accessible hardware. I'm not sure

[14:48] what you think about that.

[14:49] >> Yeah, I I I think yeah I I agree pretty

[14:52] much. I think anxiously chrono triggered

[14:54] is in the same situation that a lot of

[14:56] people are in where they thought oh yeah

[14:59] I maybe I've heard about the Steam Deck.

[15:00] I've tried a Steam Deck that's really

[15:02] good. Valve can make some really nice

[15:04] hardware and so I have belief that this

[15:06] will be good for the price and it, you

[15:08] know, it looks reasonable and has these

[15:09] other advantages and I'm sure Valve are

[15:12] also, you know, very upset and gutted

[15:15] that, you know, things have gotten so

[15:16] expensive. So, you know, I I think that

[15:20] obviously takes away from the mainstream

[15:22] aspect that Valve are probably going to

[15:24] try and target for this, but it still

[15:27] doesn't mean that um you know, the the

[15:29] Steam Machine is necessarily the only

[15:31] way forward. Like, it's a very good

[15:33] option if you want something that's very

[15:35] streamlined and works well. And, you

[15:37] know, they're making it easy to to build

[15:39] your own if you want to do that instead.

[15:41] Um, one more thing is I I guess you know

[15:44] Sony and Microsoft and Nintendo are all

[15:47] kind of insulated against price

[15:48] increases just because they operate on

[15:50] such scale and they have a lot more

[15:53] leverage when it comes to suppliers.

[15:55] Obviously, Valve is completely the other

[15:57] end of the scale. But we may see that

[15:59] when it comes time for the next

[16:01] generation consoles that they're also

[16:02] going to be at these kind of ridiculous

[16:04] price points and it just becomes the new

[16:06] normal. And maybe at that point the

[16:08] Steam Machine becomes a little bit more

[16:10] viable when people can say, "Ah, yeah,

[16:12] the PS, well, it's £1,500 though, so

[16:15] maybe I'll go for that cut price Steam

[16:17] Machine instead and get a similarly uh

[16:19] fluid experience." I mean, who knows?

[16:21] But yeah,

[16:22] >> I mean, yeah, talking about again the

[16:24] console comparisons here because

[16:25] anxiously figured he's is picking it up

[16:28] again basically. Um the the pricing

[16:32] doesn't really again it's apples to

[16:33] oranges, right? Because you're buying

[16:34] your PlayStation for $600 at this point,

[16:37] right? Um and however, you're um

[16:41] basically locked into that specific

[16:44] store with no competition. Um, you're

[16:47] also paying a monthly fee for

[16:50] multiplayer.

[16:51] >> Yeah.

[16:52] >> So, there's a lot going on in terms of

[16:54] um cost throughout the whole ecosystem

[16:56] there that maybe isn't being factored

[16:58] into this at all, which I think is a bit

[17:00] disingenuous. I guess my question to

[17:02] you, Will, is like um I'm pretty sure

[17:05] that when Valve released the Steam Deck,

[17:07] right, I think the base model was like

[17:09] $399 for the 64 gig um flash version. um

[17:16] they must have been subsidizing that

[17:18] they must have been um basically taking

[17:20] a loss on the units sold and I think if

[17:22] they were I think they've in fact they

[17:25] even mentioned that the pricing was

[17:26] painful for them from a certain

[17:28] perspective it was new for them but you

[17:30] know from that point of view um there is

[17:32] a strong argument that Steam Deck was

[17:35] looking to expand the audience

[17:37] >> you know to bring PC gaming to different

[17:39] places I'm not sure that applies to this

[17:42] but what do you make of this um

[17:44] statement that Valve put out about not

[17:47] subsidizing um the Steam Machine at all.

[17:51] >> Yeah, it's interesting. I feel like they

[17:53] could have maybe gone halfway and maybe

[17:58] just bundled the controller for no extra

[18:00] cost, something like that, because

[18:02] presumably that isn't as um dependent on

[18:05] other uh you know on flash storage

[18:08] basically being expensive. So, they

[18:10] could have done something to make it a

[18:11] bit more amenable, but I kind of get the

[18:14] point that they don't want to just

[18:15] undercut anyone else who potentially

[18:18] could be making mini PCs and kind of get

[18:21] an unfair advantage from that. I mean,

[18:23] I'm not sure if that's entirely not

[18:27] truthful, but if that's the the entire

[18:28] story, but I can kind of understand that

[18:31] if you get into the habit of subsidizing

[18:33] things, then you're kind of dependent on

[18:35] people definitely using Steam OS and

[18:37] definitely buying a lot of things from

[18:38] Steam and it kind of sets maybe the

[18:41] wrong expectation for the future. So, I

[18:44] don't know. In the end, it didn't

[18:45] happen. So yeah, not much really to say

[18:48] about that, I guess, other than the the

[18:50] controller bundle thing could could have

[18:52] been better, but

[18:54] >> I don't know. What do you think?

[18:55] >> Um, I think there is two sides to this

[18:58] because um the pricing is now dominating

[19:00] the the discussion on this to the point

[19:03] where it is effectively detrimental to

[19:05] the product. That said, do do Valve care

[19:08] >> uh because they're going to sell all of

[19:09] them anyway and they're not going to uh

[19:12] miss out on um games being bought on

[19:15] Steam because you know if somebody

[19:17] builds their own Steam machine

[19:19] >> and they're putting Steam OS on it,

[19:21] they're likely going to be buying their

[19:22] games on Steam. And even if they're just

[19:24] a PC gamer, they're likely to be buying

[19:27] their games on Steam.

[19:29] Um it was really interesting in the

[19:31] interview. Uh there are a lot of things

[19:32] that um we talked about and uh you

[19:35] supplied a lot of the questions to that

[19:37] but there was one that I put at the end

[19:39] which was basically you know this

[19:41] situation isn't great you know is are

[19:44] you still going to continue uh

[19:46] developing Steam Deck 2

[19:49] uh because you know this pricing

[19:51] situation isn't going to change in the

[19:52] foreseeable future. That's their read on

[19:54] it. And uh the response was basically,

[19:58] well, people still need to play games

[19:59] and we're going to make the hardware

[20:01] that makes that possible. So, you know,

[20:04] they're still all in on this despite all

[20:06] of this crazy stuff going on. Yeah. I

[20:08] just think that, you know, there was a

[20:10] very sort of specific balance for this

[20:12] product when it was put together in the

[20:15] initial stages. It was to create

[20:17] something more accessible. It was to

[20:18] create something cute and exciting. And

[20:20] I think they succeeded on that. And um I

[20:24] think also there was a pricing part to

[20:25] it which was to make it affordable and

[20:27] that's the reason why you get that

[20:29] specific CPU and that specific GPU um

[20:34] which aren't you know they aren't great

[20:36] parts let's be clear you know they're

[20:37] kind of like just a touch above entry

[20:39] level really if we if we're looking uh

[20:41] looking at it but you know taken as a

[20:44] product altogether with a decent price

[20:47] it would have done really really well. I

[20:49] mean, we are in a situation now where

[20:51] yes, it's going to sell out most likely

[20:53] because they can, you know, they're not

[20:55] able to make as many of them as they

[20:57] wanted to in the first place, but in

[20:59] terms of that target audience, I think

[21:01] it's now skewed from, you know, maybe

[21:03] expanding that audience just to kind of

[21:05] like um uh doing something for the core

[21:09] who have to pay for the privilege.

[21:12] Okay, let's move on to the next

[21:13] question. This one comes from Steve Mil.

[21:16] Hey Fman, exclamation point. uh did

[21:18] Valve miss the mark by not using unified

[21:21] memory for the Steam machine. They

[21:22] shipped with 24 GB total memory uh which

[21:26] thus is their total cost. However, only

[21:28] 8 GB is addressible by the GPU. Seems

[21:31] like a big miss. Having the consolelike

[21:34] flexibility of unified memory would have

[21:36] at least solved the 8 GB GPU limitation

[21:39] and solved some performance issues

[21:41] without modifying the overall costs.

[21:44] Thoughts?

[21:46] I have some thoughts. So, um, basically,

[21:50] yeah, unified memory is really cool and

[21:52] it makes a lot of sense for certain

[21:54] applications, but you are kind of paying

[21:57] a price for it. Um, obviously, if it's

[21:59] soldered to the board, then the user

[22:01] can't upgrade it. Uh, Valve can't easily

[22:04] make changes to how much they're going

[22:05] to equip each machine with. And there's

[22:08] a trade-off in terms of your RAM wants

[22:11] to be really low latency, your VRAM is

[22:13] kind of really high bandwidth and you

[22:16] can only satisfy, you know, one of those

[22:18] things at a time with the unified

[22:20] memory, right? It kind of has to sit

[22:21] somewhere in the middle. Whereas if you

[22:23] have RAM which can be all in on low

[22:25] latency and VRAM which can be allin in

[22:28] high bandwidth, then there's potentially

[22:29] some performance implications there,

[22:31] right? So yes, they they could have done

[22:34] it a bit differently, but clearly I

[22:36] think you know the core issue is that 8

[22:38] GB is just about enough. It's not ideal,

[22:42] but on this class of GPU, which is kind

[22:44] of, you know, we we roughly think it's

[22:46] between the RX6600 and the 7600,

[22:49] somewhere in that region.

[22:50] >> 8 GB is a limitation, but it's not a a

[22:54] drastic limitation. And hopefully

[22:56] through the verified program they can at

[22:58] least guarantee that most games will

[23:01] come out with um you know specs and and

[23:04] settings at a certain level that that

[23:06] isn't a problem.

[23:08] >> I think there's a design issue here

[23:10] which uh Stephen is perhaps overlooking

[23:13] is the fact that um to be able to use

[23:16] unified memory you basically need to

[23:18] unify the CPU and the GPU as well.

[23:20] >> Yeah.

[23:21] >> Uh which which isn't part of the design

[23:23] here. So, you know, when you've got that

[23:25] unified uh SOC, which would be, you

[23:28] know, the the CPU, the GPU, the media

[23:30] encoders, everything sits on a single

[23:32] slice of silicon and um then you can

[23:35] have like a single unified memory

[23:37] interface that attaches to uh the

[23:39] memory, which would be in this case, I

[23:40] guess, GDDR6 or 7. Um the problem is

[23:44] that um that would require spinning up

[23:47] an entirely new processor out of

[23:50] nowhere. So basically then you're

[23:52] looking at hundreds of millions of

[23:54] dollars in development costs in creating

[23:56] a new APU from scratch. Um the only

[24:00] other alternative I think would have

[24:02] been for Valve to do some kind of

[24:04] variant on Stricks Halo which does that

[24:07] job.

[24:07] >> Yeah.

[24:08] >> Uh which has you know they could have

[24:10] maybe locked off one of the chiplets uh

[24:13] for the CPU. You don't need 16 cores and

[24:15] 32 threads for a Steam machine.

[24:17] um uh then you're left with the uh main

[24:21] um GPU slice there where maybe there

[24:23] would have been salvage parts for that

[24:25] as well. The issue there is that Stricks

[24:29] Halo is first of all gigantically

[24:33] expensive. Uh secondly, you're getting

[24:36] performance in line with a PlayStation 5

[24:39] when you're when you're when you're

[24:41] using Stricks Halo, which is ultimately

[24:44] just a bit better than um what the Steam

[24:47] Machine is already delivering.

[24:49] >> Yeah,

[24:49] >> you would have had the advantage of

[24:51] unified memory, of course. Um but that's

[24:55] um uh you would have likely ended up

[24:57] with a much more expensive processor in

[25:00] the in in the in the process there. when

[25:02] looking at what uh Valve has actually

[25:04] delivered here, it is, you know,

[25:05] essentially um a lower-end mobilebased

[25:09] CPU cluster um has been sort of factored

[25:12] into a GPU as well, but it is

[25:14] fundamentally a mobile CPU. And I think

[25:17] you know the the GPU is kind of desktop

[25:21] class. It is Na'vi 33, the same as the

[25:23] RX7600,

[25:24] but it has a lot in common with the um

[25:27] 7600M, which also has the 28 compute

[25:30] units. Um so yeah I think it's basically

[25:34] a case that um the fact that there is a

[25:36] separate CPU and GPU was done for uh

[25:39] cost reasons and then because you've got

[25:41] a separate GPU it can't share the same

[25:43] memory as the uh as as the main CPU. So

[25:46] that's kind of like how things ended up

[25:49] there. I mean, I think it would have

[25:51] been awesome to do a a Stricks Halo box.

[25:53] And I think fundamentally, if people are

[25:55] looking for um um a small form factor PC

[26:00] uh that is sort of more powerful or as

[26:03] powerful as a PlayStation 5 that does

[26:06] have unified memory to overcome that

[26:08] issue, you're looking at a Stricks Halo

[26:10] box. And a Stricks Halo box is way, way

[26:13] more than $1,049.

[26:16] Uh, interesting question nonetheless,

[26:18] but yeah, kind of like um suggests that

[26:21] Steam Machine shares design concepts in

[26:24] line with a standard console, but that's

[26:26] not really how it works.

[26:28] >> Okay, let's move on. I got a question

[26:31] here from Matt GPT. Hello Jets. Uh, with

[26:36] a Steam controller now pushing back

[26:37] deliveries until 2027, is it realistic

[26:41] to expect Valve to ship anything at in

[26:43] volume at the moment? The Deca

[26:45] controller are impossible to get hold

[26:46] of. The machine and frame are delayed to

[26:48] an unknown date. And we have been

[26:50] waiting for HalfLife 3 for more than two

[26:53] decades.

[26:55] This seems to be a bit more of a problem

[26:57] than being directly triggered by the

[26:59] RAM/s storage supply constraints. Enjoy

[27:02] the mini heatwave. I'm not enjoying it.

[27:04] Uh as it seems to be nice for every

[27:06] nation in which the DFT reside. Yeah,

[27:10] it's not great. Um,

[27:13] basic question here from Matt GPT. Can

[27:16] Valve ship anything at this point? And I

[27:19] think basically the answer is it's

[27:21] challenging clearly.

[27:24] >> Yeah, definitely. I mean, obviously the

[27:27] RAM and SSD pricing situation doesn't

[27:30] help. The fact that there's inflation,

[27:32] the fact that there's, you know, tension

[27:35] on supply lines in general, you know,

[27:37] it's just a bit of a weird time to make

[27:39] or ship anything. um they are going to

[27:42] be shipping the Steam machine soon I

[27:44] guess. So that proves that they can

[27:46] still do something and obviously the

[27:48] Steam Deck although it is now extremely

[27:50] expensive we do expect that to

[27:52] eventually come back onto the market and

[27:53] be purchasable and whatnot. So clearly,

[27:57] you know, Valve as a as a company is

[27:59] functional, but I think the interesting

[28:02] thing about Valve is that they're kind

[28:04] of masters of their own destiny in that

[28:08] both they have a huge amount of money

[28:10] and they have the luxury of being able

[28:12] to say, "This is what I really want to

[28:14] do, and I'm and I'm happy to wait until

[28:16] it's done, until it's perfectly ready,

[28:18] and then we'll do whatever we want."

[28:20] They also have, you know, employees

[28:22] within Valve are kind of free to choose

[28:24] what teams and what projects they work

[28:26] on. So they're probably a little bit

[28:29] less pushed by an outside force to bring

[28:31] things to completion, which you know,

[28:33] traditional companies typically do have

[28:35] somebody in that role, right? So there

[28:38] are some kind of structural things

[28:39] there, but I mean, nobody's having a

[28:42] good time shipping things at the moment.

[28:44] Everyone is, you know, thinking, okay,

[28:47] well, how do we make this cheaper? How

[28:49] do we, you know, get away with not

[28:51] shipping our new products yet? How do we

[28:53] wait until things cool off? So, you

[28:56] know, in in in one sense, yes, they

[28:58] haven't shipped that much, but at the

[29:00] same sense, everyone is dealing with the

[29:01] same challenges, and, you know, we're

[29:03] seeing a lot of things getting delayed

[29:04] right now. So, I don't think it's a

[29:05] purely Valve problem.

[29:07] >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's just

[29:09] extremely tricky for them. I mean, the

[29:11] stories that um they shared in the

[29:13] interviews about sourcing RAM sounds

[29:16] completely nightmarish, to be honest.

[29:18] And um yeah, I mean basically it seems

[29:21] to be a sort of wild west in terms of uh

[29:23] logistics and procurement at the moment

[29:25] which isn't great for them at all. I do

[29:29] wonder I mean we did discuss um in fact

[29:31] um one of the the questions that you put

[29:33] down when we uh spoke to Valve was about

[29:35] sort of securing um third party

[29:39] partnerships

[29:40] >> you know in in in getting um in getting

[29:42] these components and maybe that is a

[29:44] route forward for them going forward.

[29:47] Yeah, certainly tricky though. Yeah, I

[29:49] think to sort of summarize on this one,

[29:51] I think the obviously there's issues at

[29:52] Valve in terms of actually getting stuff

[29:54] out of the door at this point and it

[29:56] certainly seems to be very very tricky

[29:57] and I'm not sure based on the

[29:59] conversations we had with them that it's

[30:00] going to get any easier for them anytime

[30:02] soon. I mean there have been sort of um

[30:05] um comments from AMD that maybe things

[30:07] are going to ease up um sort of maybe

[30:09] towards uh the tail end of next year and

[30:11] into 2028 but I didn't get any kind of

[30:14] indication from Valve that they feel the

[30:16] situation is going to change at all. Um,

[30:19] but they did say that, you know, if it

[30:20] does change, they'll be rethinking

[30:22] pricing on Steam Machine, which I think

[30:23] is obviously a logical route forward

[30:25] there, especially if there are going to

[30:27] be new consoles coming out, which, you

[30:29] know, may be putting pressure on the

[30:33] Steam Machine price point.

[30:34] >> Maybe not because they are existing in

[30:37] different markets, I guess. Yeah, but

[30:40] it's not great. Okay, let's move on. Got

[30:43] this question here from Michael P. Um,

[30:45] hi Foundryman. Perhaps the most

[30:47] interesting part of the Steam Machine

[30:48] announcement was Valve outlining their

[30:50] plans to ship Steam OS for all AMDbased

[30:53] PCs with other graphics card support

[30:56] indicated potentially for the future.

[30:58] How realistic uh would it be to get

[31:01] native Nvidia Linux support with a

[31:03] future Steam OS version? I think it's

[31:06] basically extremely realistic because

[31:08] they've said they're going to do it.

[31:10] >> Yeah, I think that sounds about right.

[31:12] Um clearly uh there are bigger players

[31:16] uh involved here. Nvidia themselves

[31:19] obviously need to be quite active in

[31:21] this and that's not always easy.

[31:25] Historically their approach to Linux has

[31:28] been a little bit more hands-off than

[31:30] AMD you could say. They have a closed

[31:33] source uh driver and they don't tend to

[31:36] make new drivers available on Linux as

[31:38] quickly. I know when Forza Horizon 6

[31:40] came out, I was running a Linux PC on

[31:43] Cashios with I think it was a GTX 1660

[31:47] or something inside and that worked

[31:49] perfectly fine. But when Forza Horizon 6

[31:51] came out and I wanted to play it, the

[31:53] driver wasn't available for days after

[31:55] and I ended up just booting back into

[31:56] Windows to to get that done eventually.

[31:59] So there is, I would say, some

[32:01] organizational inertia to overcome. Um,

[32:04] Nvidia is typically a little bit more

[32:07] keen on proprietary stuff and that makes

[32:09] it difficult for uh people in the Linux

[32:12] community and for Valve to be able to

[32:15] implement things in a way that actually

[32:17] makes sense and avoids, you know, bugs,

[32:20] artifacts difficulties restrictions

[32:22] etc. So, if anyone can make it happen,

[32:25] obviously Valve is a is a really good

[32:27] candidate. I think Nvidia are no doubt

[32:30] looking at the popularity of Steam OS

[32:32] and Linux in general and perhaps that's

[32:34] enough to kind of force a bit of a

[32:35] rethink. But yeah, I'm I'm cautiously

[32:38] optimistic. I think it would be lovely

[32:41] to to have it happen because this is one

[32:44] of the biggest stumbling blocks for

[32:45] Linux at the moment is that, you know,

[32:47] people always say, you know, go with

[32:48] AMD, you'll have less problems. And

[32:50] that's kind of been borne out in my

[32:51] experience. But I guess we'll have to

[32:53] see exactly, you know, how successful

[32:55] Valve are in in this attempt.

[32:57] >> I agree. It would be lovely.

[33:00] Be absolutely lovely. Um, no. Uh, more

[33:03] seriously, I mean, um, here's the thing,

[33:06] right? One of my big takeaways of using

[33:08] the Steam Machine is that basically

[33:11] everything works, right? You've got a

[33:14] great interface that's very, very

[33:16] smooth, very, very nice to behold, great

[33:20] functionality that PC users would like.

[33:22] And if the P if the functionality isn't

[33:24] there, then you know obviously you can

[33:26] sort of dip back into the Linux desktop

[33:28] and set things up there. Then go back to

[33:30] that lovely interface and you're good to

[33:31] go. Um the the stumbling block has been

[33:34] from my perspective in terms of like um

[33:37] Linux um adoption has basically been

[33:40] that Nvidia at the forefront of you know

[33:43] doing some fantastic um new things with

[33:45] graphics rendering right and um you know

[33:48] path tracing multiframe generation that

[33:50] sort of stuff you know uh really nice

[33:52] new features for people to enjoy and um

[33:55] if that support isn't there day one um

[33:58] on all the new titles within Linux

[34:01] within Steam OS that's a problem. Um,

[34:04] but it is fundamentally the, you know,

[34:06] one of the only reasons from my

[34:08] perspective why I wouldn't move across

[34:11] fulltime to a Steam to Steam OS for a

[34:13] gaming box. And there's the small matter

[34:16] of the fact that they've got like

[34:17] gigantic market share, right? which you

[34:20] know if you're not supporting the number

[34:22] one GPU supplier for the for the PC

[34:25] market then you know obviously that's

[34:27] only going to there's a sort of ceiling

[34:29] based on how far Steam OS can actually

[34:31] go. So Steam OS receiving proper Nvidia

[34:35] support is going to be a gamecher for

[34:38] Steam OS in terms of like expanding its

[34:40] reach and potentially causing more

[34:43] problems for Windows, although they're

[34:45] causing plenty of problems for

[34:47] themselves and um and basically um the

[34:51] amount of people who would then be

[34:52] tempted to either a give it a try or b

[34:56] just move over full-time to Steam OS, it

[34:59] suddenly, you know, is is you know

[35:02] almost an order of magnitude higher the

[35:04] total addressable marketplace for steam

[35:06] OS and I think you know that's a logical

[35:09] route forward and I also think that

[35:11] Nvidia are probably quite aware of the

[35:14] dissatisfaction with Windows

[35:16] >> generally and um seeing the way the wind

[35:20] is blowing I mean you know at the moment

[35:21] Linux has got like a poultry market

[35:23] share in terms of you know even the

[35:25] steam hardware survey is saying it's

[35:27] like what three 4%

[35:29] >> and a key reason of that is probably

[35:31] going to be that the most gaming GPUs

[35:33] out there don't properly support Steam

[35:35] OS. So, you know, it's it's a logical

[35:37] move for everybody involved really. So,

[35:40] I'm really excited by this. I think it

[35:42] could be really cool. I mean, you can

[35:43] run Bazite now with uh Nvidia GPUs,

[35:46] right? But um I think there might, you

[35:48] know, I haven't tried it myself, but I

[35:49] understand that there are some

[35:50] roadblocks there. Um, but you know, a

[35:54] properly invested Valve, a properly ini

[35:57] invested Nvidia to make this work, I

[35:59] think it would be absolutely awesome,

[36:01] right? I think it's the the number one

[36:03] sort of um route forward for for, you

[36:06] know, taking Steam OS to the next level,

[36:08] you know, expand it out not just to

[36:10] Nvidia, but to Intel as well. Everybody

[36:12] um could get a really good Steam OS

[36:15] experience. Um, yeah, that's my thoughts

[36:18] on that. Okay. Uh, let's move on to the

[36:21] final question. This one from Darjako in

[36:24] brackets. Dan, I don't know about

[36:26] everyone else, but I feel like the

[36:27] biggest letdown with a Steam Machine is

[36:29] not the absurd price or the absence of

[36:31] Gab's cub cubified face on the front.

[36:35] That That's the stuff of nightmares.

[36:37] Could you imagine the

[36:38] >> Jeez, my god. Where's the lunchbox

[36:41] handle? What's the chance that Valve

[36:43] realized the errors of their ways and

[36:46] add it as an optional extra or a

[36:48] hardware revision? Yeah, I mean I did a

[36:50] I did a he's alluding to the Gamecube

[36:53] here and this is the Gabe Cube and uh I

[36:56] did do a comparison, right? It's in the

[36:57] video. You did an article about it on

[36:59] the website where

[37:01] >> you put the GameCube side by side with

[37:03] the Gabe Cube and you realize that man,

[37:05] this is actually a really really cool

[37:07] little device. Just, you know, I think

[37:09] your headlines summed it up entirely.

[37:11] It's just like tiny cubes are cool,

[37:13] right?

[37:14] >> Yeah.

[37:14] >> But uh does does it need a handle?

[37:20] Yeah, I feel like the the benefit of the

[37:22] handle is that when you're bringing your

[37:24] Gamecube to to your friend's house, you

[37:26] can kind of carry it like this and go,

[37:28] "Hey guys, I'm here. I got the

[37:30] Gamecube." And I'm not sure the Steam

[37:32] Machine is really intended to be used in

[37:34] the same way. But having said that,

[37:36] we've seen Valve release a lot of, you

[37:39] know, 3D files, project files, stuff

[37:42] that you can use to be able to print out

[37:45] your own accessories, right? I know for

[37:47] the plate like on the front that's

[37:49] definitely something that they've

[37:50] released uh files for or will be doing

[37:52] soon. So maybe they're going to go a

[37:55] little bit further release files for the

[37:56] entire enclosure and in that case you

[37:59] could just take out the internals and

[38:01] then get have your 3D printed

[38:03] alternative with handle and then you

[38:05] know jobs are good. So Valve make it

[38:08] happen.

[38:10] >> That's what it needs. It needs a handle.

[38:12] I think I think more generally, you

[38:15] know, it's just again just sort of going

[38:16] back to the to the feedback and I can

[38:18] kind of understand it, right? Because um

[38:21] uh form factor is quite, you know, in

[38:24] theory it should be a really easy thing

[38:26] to express to the audience, right?

[38:27] Here's this cool little cube, but

[38:30] actually it's it's quite difficult to

[38:32] actually sort of say, well, okay, you

[38:34] know, this machine, it's very very cute.

[38:36] It's very very tiny. It's got extremely

[38:39] it's extremely appealing and instead the

[38:42] focus is elsewhere on performance when

[38:44] it was you know the the thing is about

[38:46] the performance side of things. We all

[38:48] knew what the performance would be

[38:50] pretty much from when the specs came out

[38:52] >> because it's existing Radeon and and

[38:55] Ryzen parts. So we had a kind of idea of

[38:57] what to expect. Hardware set in stone.

[39:00] The price is the price and uh I guess

[39:03] from their perspective it's going to

[39:05] sell out anyway. just probably wasn't

[39:07] this sort of massively successful thing

[39:10] that uh we kind of hoped it would be.

[39:13] You know, the sort of um aura of a Valve

[39:15] product.

[39:17] >> Uh there sort of maybe been a bit of a

[39:20] it's not quite the same as it was

[39:21] before. Um anyway, that is our QA on the

[39:26] Steam Machine. Lots more to come on the

[39:27] Steam Machine. Um I'm currently looking

[39:29] at FSR4 running on the Steam Machine,

[39:31] which is throwing up some very, very

[39:33] interesting results. In fact, I'm just

[39:34] going to give you a teaser clip here.

[39:36] This is Cyberpunk 2077

[39:38] running on Steam Machine. Um, and it is

[39:41] the PlayStation 5 performance mode

[39:44] settings and uh it's FSR4 running at

[39:48] 1620p resolution, but it's dynamic

[39:51] resolution scaling. It can go down to

[39:52] like minimum 50% and uh um it it looks

[39:57] really really cool. It actually runs

[39:59] very very smoothly at 60 frames per

[40:01] second. That's um just part of some of

[40:03] the stuff that I'm doing at the moment

[40:04] with FSR4 on Steam Machine and more

[40:07] generally with FSR. Um but that's it.

[40:09] That's our Q&A show for this week. So

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