Ranking Every The War Within Raid Boss w/ Dratnos & Fronk

[00:00] Yo yo.

[00:01] >> Oh my god, you're so loud. Turning you

[00:03] down.

[00:04] >> Sorry. Uh so we're going to rank every

[00:05] boss uh today in the expansion. I I

[00:08] prepared my list and I asked you guys

[00:10] not to watch it and I have no idea

[00:12] what's on your list. Uh the reason we're

[00:14] doing this is we're coming from a little

[00:15] bit different perspective. So mine is

[00:17] like the world first perspective, world

[00:18] first race. uh Dratnos is just behind

[00:21] that and I think that's a very

[00:22] interesting perspective because a lot of

[00:24] time like for example like think about

[00:26] the difference between Dratnos' guild

[00:27] which is very very highly ranked but

[00:29] like on a boss like sticks or a boss

[00:31] like uh forgew weaver I think those are

[00:33] like brood twister right major things

[00:36] were like even guilds way near the top

[00:38] have like totally different experiences

[00:40] um and then franc uh what was your world

[00:42] rank again

[00:43] >> uh I've kind of been teetering between

[00:44] 200 and 300 this expansion

[00:46] >> yeah which is perfect that's exactly

[00:48] what I wanted cuz I you you are killing

[00:50] some bosses not not only after uh like a

[00:53] couple weeks of gear, but you're killing

[00:55] them, I believe, in almost all the

[00:56] harder bosses cases, like when they're

[00:58] nerfed. And I think that presents an

[00:59] entirely different set of problems cuz

[01:02] now like certain bosses are easier,

[01:03] certain bosses are harder. Now you have

[01:04] to hold damage and that's like really

[01:06] shitty or whatever. So

[01:07] >> [ __ ] love doing that, man.

[01:09] >> Yeah. Uh if needs to be louder. Okay.

[01:11] Increasing Funk's volume. Uh so we're

[01:13] going to go just in order. Uh I have

[01:14] like a little spreadsheet up right now.

[01:16] Uh we'll just go me then Dratnos then

[01:19] Franc. Uh we're going to list from the

[01:21] bottom to the top and we are only going

[01:23] to discuss each boss one time. So let's

[01:26] just say for example I'm like I think

[01:28] the worst boss in the expansion is

[01:29] Demensius. We you guys would be like oh

[01:32] okay I you one of you or both of you

[01:34] would say I have that higher and then we

[01:36] would just simply move on to Dragnos's

[01:37] pick. And then once someone has a a

[01:40] basically a boss has been listed for the

[01:42] third time or is it it is at its highest

[01:45] point, we will then like discuss how

[01:47] good or shitty the boss is. And if

[01:48] there's massive differences like I know

[01:50] there will be on one of them. Each

[01:52] person that has it either really high or

[01:53] really low, two different extremes can

[01:55] like explain explain their reasoning for

[01:57] for that argument. Does everyone

[01:59] understand?

[02:00] >> Yeah.

[02:00] >> W All right, I'm gonna go first. Um the

[02:05] boss that I have the lowest rate in the

[02:07] expansion. I did have to think about

[02:08] this a little bit. Uh, but I ended up

[02:10] landing on I have Fractalus as the as my

[02:13] 24. Does anyone have it higher?

[02:15] >> I I have it higher.

[02:16] >> I have it higher, too.

[02:18] >> W. All right. Dryos, what is your 24?

[02:20] >> Brood twister. Ovax.

[02:22] >> Oh, okay. I have that higher.

[02:24] >> Yeah. Uh, same as Ratnos. Could just go

[02:26] next.

[02:26] >> You You also have it. Wait, I I I'm

[02:29] >> That boss is so [ __ ] bad.

[02:31] >> Yeah, it's bad. I I Where do I have

[02:33] that? I uh It's not too far away. So,

[02:35] we'll have a chance to talk about it.

[02:36] All right. I'm going to do my I'm going

[02:38] to do my my 23. I have a Rick Reverb.

[02:40] >> I have it higher.

[02:41] >> I have that higher.

[02:42] >> You have a tad higher. Okay. Uh Dratnos,

[02:44] you're 23.

[02:45] >> Olgra the Devourer.

[02:47] >> I have that higher.

[02:47] >> Oh, interesting. Yeah, I have that

[02:49] higher as well.

[02:50] >> Dude, I kind of feel like with this

[02:51] format, it's like like usually use the

[02:53] format of not talking about it until the

[02:55] person who has it highest. But like

[02:56] here, I think it's like there are some

[02:58] like if you want to rant about a boss as

[03:00] well, it's like also interesting. I

[03:03] think we're going to be able to start

[03:04] >> your

[03:07] >> I think you're you're right, Draatnos.

[03:09] However, we're going to start talking

[03:11] about these bosses within the next like

[03:13] two or three picks and I think it will

[03:16] start being more fluid then. But because

[03:17] of the nature of the list and how many

[03:19] bosses there are, probably for the first

[03:20] couple rounds, they're going to be

[03:21] pretty slow. But I think we're going to

[03:23] end up talking about a lot of them

[03:24] later. Uh unless you have like a unless

[03:26] you have like a way better way to do it.

[03:27] It's just like the only issue is this

[03:29] way you avoid talking about each boss

[03:32] more than once.

[03:33] >> It's just it's always really fun to

[03:34] complain about the format. That's uh

[03:36] >> that's something that you can do

[03:37] regardless of the setting.

[03:38] >> All right. W uh Frank, what is your uh

[03:41] >> Yeah, my next one is Soul Hunters.

[03:44] >> Oh, wow.

[03:45] >> I have it higher.

[03:45] >> Yeah, I have that. I definitely have

[03:46] that higher. Uh, my third and okay, this

[03:50] is I'm going to have to explain myself

[03:52] later, but my my next or most hated

[03:56] fight is actually Nexus Princess Kyza.

[03:58] >> I definitely understand why I can't say

[04:00] I'm surprised.

[04:01] >> Yeah, I have it higher as well.

[04:02] >> I'm sure you guys both have it higher.

[04:03] Okay. Uh, Draatnos, your third or 22nd.

[04:06] >> Uh, 22nd for me is Rashinon.

[04:09] >> I have that higher.

[04:10] >> I have that surprisingly a lot higher,

[04:13] [laughter] but we'll get that in a

[04:15] second. Okay, we're we're about to start

[04:16] talking about a boss on my next pick, I

[04:18] believe. So, uh, Franc, what's your 20?

[04:19] Uh yeah 22.

[04:20] >> 22nd is Fractalus.

[04:21] >> Okay. And you still have that a little

[04:23] bit higher, right, Dus?

[04:24] >> Uh, yes, I have it much higher.

[04:26] >> Wow. Okay. Okay. So, we're getting to

[04:29] >> Yeah, we're getting to my 21st pick,

[04:31] which is Brood Twister Ovenax, which

[04:34] will be uh Now we can uh we can talk

[04:37] about our dislike for so so explain your

[04:39] all's perspective. Why Why is Ovenax the

[04:41] worst boss of the expansion?

[04:42] >> You want to go first right now,

[04:44] >> dude? just like viscerally. It's the one

[04:46] that I think is the most like misery

[04:48] inducing boss to be pulling like both in

[04:51] progression and reclar. Like this this

[04:53] was the thing about it as well is like

[04:54] the reclair sucked too cuz you just had

[04:56] to if you were swapping anybody in and

[04:58] out it was like a pain. It was

[05:00] simultaneously a weak aura boss and also

[05:03] not really like an interesting a super

[05:05] interesting boss. Uh and then it also

[05:07] had the like not getting nerfed for a

[05:09] while being a hard boss after four

[05:11] really easy bosses. So, a bunch of

[05:13] people were stuck on it for ages. So,

[05:15] yeah, many many sins, but also just like

[05:19] I don't know, viscerally is the one that

[05:20] I feel most negatively towards.

[05:22] >> Uh, yeah, I mean roughly the same for

[05:24] me. Um, we spent 117 polls here. Uh, I

[05:28] believe probably 70 or 80 of those were

[05:30] either weak or issues or big wigs not

[05:32] being updated or a setting not being

[05:34] enabled or whatever else. Um, the comp

[05:37] was super restrictive. It felt like uh

[05:39] we only had one frost EK and and that

[05:41] clash just did 20% more damage than

[05:43] everybody else. So that kind of sucked.

[05:45] Yeah, there was just not really any

[05:46] redeeming factors at all. Um best case

[05:49] scenario, you didn't think at all. You

[05:50] followed the weak aura and the boss

[05:52] died.

[05:53] >> Okay, I hear both of you. I I mean I

[05:55] still have it really low. Also, one

[05:57] thing that's funny about this list so

[05:58] far is Draos [ __ ] hates that raid

[06:01] Narabar Palace. Um, but I I uh Okay, I

[06:06] feel like when I was comparing these, I

[06:08] also thought Ovanax was like a huge weak

[06:10] ora problem, but I felt like Fractalus

[06:13] is just the worst version of it cuz

[06:14] Fractalus was also giga weak or issues.

[06:17] But when you actually look at the fights

[06:19] after the weak or issues, I just thought

[06:20] Ovenax was just like had more going for

[06:22] it. As much as it's like kind of

[06:24] annoying maybe like compwise, this is

[06:25] why these lists are fun and different is

[06:27] we don't have the comp issues, right?

[06:28] Like we can run literally anything. So,

[06:30] I don't really think about that. I just

[06:32] think that like once everything actually

[06:33] worked, this fight had a was just simply

[06:36] better than Fractalus, which is also the

[06:37] shitty weaker boss that had nothing

[06:38] going for it afterwards. And I feel like

[06:40] that was also the whole like this boss

[06:42] is way too hard. The Ovenax, um, Forgew

[06:46] Weaver, and Stixs all had the issue of

[06:48] like all the really good guilds in the

[06:50] world that weren't in the world first

[06:51] race were just like what the [ __ ] do we

[06:52] even do with our time right now? And

[06:54] that's just something that never applied

[06:55] to us cuz we killed those B. I think all

[06:57] of them or most of them first. And like

[06:59] that still felt really fulfilling at the

[07:01] end, even if they weren't awesome or if

[07:02] they were harder. Like to us, like we

[07:04] just want to kill hard bosses, whether

[07:05] that's the second to last boss in the

[07:06] raid or the fourth boss. It's kind of

[07:08] weird that they're making the bosses

[07:09] really hard, but we're we're down for

[07:10] that [ __ ] That's what we do this for.

[07:12] So like that that part didn't matter as

[07:13] much to me where I know that's like a

[07:15] it's a they're all really maligned

[07:16] bosses in the community because of that

[07:20] fact. That just doesn't apply to me. So

[07:22] like I think there's going to be a

[07:23] couple bosses I have a little bit higher

[07:24] than both of you because of that. But I

[07:26] chat, would you guys agree? What would

[07:27] be the the representatives that are

[07:29] closest to you have voted Ovenax as the

[07:32] worst of the expansion? Is that does

[07:33] that fly? Is that like what you guys

[07:34] would all be like, "Okay, yeah, I feel

[07:36] that." Decent amount of yeses.

[07:38] >> I get where you're coming from with the

[07:40] uh the Fractalus being the like worst

[07:42] fight objectively. I think the big

[07:43] difference for me was Fractalus was a 15

[07:45] to like 20 pull boss, so you're just

[07:47] kind of in and out of there where Ovenax

[07:49] was a you know 120 pull. That's a lot of

[07:52] raid nights for a guild that raids like

[07:53] twice a week. Uh, a lot of time spent

[07:55] looking at a worm, being incredibly

[07:57] frustrated at tech issues and week or

[07:59] updates and whatever else. True. And I

[08:00] think that's really what

[08:01] >> Yeah, it literally impacts at least

[08:03] >> it impacts weeks of your time. And if

[08:05] something is a worse boss, but it's

[08:07] something that

[08:08] >> is is a problem for an hour, it just

[08:10] can't matter to you as much. I I get

[08:12] that.

[08:12] >> Exactly.

[08:13] >> Um, okay. Oh my god, RO just [ __ ]

[08:17] flex so hard in chat. Fractal worse than

[08:19] Ovenax, but then again, we rarely have

[08:22] weak or issues, so I get it. Guess who?

[08:24] Guess who makes the weak oras for that

[08:26] guild? That's where

[08:27] >> I want you to know. Relo the sole reason

[08:29] Soul Hunters is 23 for me. He's the sole

[08:31] reason. He pushed a really dodgy soul

[08:33] hunters update at some point and my

[08:35] guild spent 25 polls recaring.

[08:37] >> Oh [ __ ]

[08:38] >> Reload your [ __ ] name. I think I sent

[08:40] him a uh an interesting gift in his DMs

[08:43] at that.

[08:43] >> Let's [ __ ] go. L reo. All right. Uh

[08:46] moving on. Uh Dratnos, your 21st pick.

[08:50] >> Fractal. I was pranking earlier when I

[08:52] said I had much higher. Okay, that's

[08:53] that's very Okay, so I mean we we kind

[08:56] of just already talked about this a

[08:57] little bit, but I I wonder I just feel

[08:59] like Fractals is just a complete nothing

[09:01] encounter. Even when everything works,

[09:03] when everything works, what are you even

[09:05] doing? Like the only redeeming quality

[09:07] is that when you had the strat for it,

[09:09] the echo strat, it just died really

[09:11] fast. Like that's the only thing. And I

[09:13] guess that I guess that matters because

[09:14] like you're you know, you don't have to

[09:16] spend a lot of time on the really shitty

[09:17] thing. But I don't know. I just feel

[09:19] like this was like one of the least

[09:20] inspired bosses they've ever made. Yeah.

[09:23] Um I think if I remember prog correctly

[09:26] on this boss, uh the the only mechanic

[09:28] is at some point the safe spot moves

[09:30] over slightly to the right and that's

[09:31] about it.

[09:32] >> Yeah, it moves twice.

[09:33] >> Can't really say it was a very inspiring

[09:35] fight.

[09:35] >> And that happens like like like four

[09:38] minutes into the encounter. I mean, also

[09:40] I think there's some amount of people

[09:42] that just enjoy a nonoying bos like some

[09:44] people just like to sit still and do

[09:45] damage. And this is a boss where

[09:47] >> it's a fine first boss. Fine first boss.

[09:50] Not a great seventh boss or wherever it

[09:51] was placed in the

[09:53] >> Yeah, this this is in the like pro what

[09:55] what did people call fractalist before

[09:56] it came out? You're like, "Okay, I'm

[09:58] reading through the dungeon journal. Oh,

[09:59] this is them doing sludgefist, right?

[10:02] You see a boss that's third to last.

[10:05] That's pure single target." And that is

[10:07] the prototypical Sludgefist build,

[10:10] right? So you you compare it to things

[10:12] that have been like that before and

[10:13] there have been amazing ones and

[10:15] fractals just falls short on on

[10:18] everything to do with that. You have Oh,

[10:20] that's so interesting that Drus's Olgs

[10:22] below that. But we'll get to that when

[10:24] we get

[10:24] >> I kind of get

[10:25] >> Yeah. We'll talk about when we get to

[10:27] Olgraphs. Uh Fran yours.

[10:29] >> What would you have? Uh 21 is stick

[10:32] >> I have sticks.

[10:33] >> Uh I also have Sticksire,

[10:35] >> but I also I respect that there's a lot

[10:37] of bosses near the bottom where they're

[10:38] not going to be super controversial.

[10:39] Well, I I have a controversial one.

[10:41] You're the bottom, but uh Okay, Forge

[10:43] Weaver. Uh or sorry, I'm just reading

[10:45] Forge Wever's name. 20. 20 for me is

[10:47] Olgra.

[10:48] >> Okay, I have that high.

[10:49] >> You have that higher. Dryos, what's

[10:51] yours?

[10:51] >> Uh mine is the onearmed bandit.

[10:54] >> I have that significantly higher.

[10:56] >> I also have that significantly high.

[10:58] >> Uh yours, Frank.

[11:00] >> Uh 20 silken core.

[11:02] >> I get I should have saw that coming. I

[11:05] have much higher.

[11:05] >> Yeah, I have much higher as well. uh

[11:07] [ __ ] elitist

[11:09] >> 19 for me. And I'm actually lowkey

[11:10] surprised that you guys don't have this

[11:13] lower. I thought I had this high, but

[11:15] mine is soulbinder uh for for this. Like

[11:18] I I I don't know. There's literally

[11:20] nothing happening here. Uh Dryos, what's

[11:21] your 19?

[11:22] >> Uh Silken Court.

[11:24] >> You said you had it. Okay. You just keep

[11:26] lying.

[11:26] >> Let's [ __ ] go. Let's go. You're

[11:28] keeping me on my toes, man. I'm

[11:30] interested to hear when we get to it why

[11:32] you guys dislike this one as much

[11:33] because I understand why a lot of people

[11:35] do, but I just feel like boss had some

[11:37] sauce. Um,

[11:38] >> my 19 is

[11:40] >> Oh, we can talk about it.

[11:41] >> Yep.

[11:42] >> Uh, let's start with the person who has

[11:43] it the least, Danos. What do you What do

[11:45] you specifically hate about this boss?

[11:47] It's like it's a first boss with like a

[11:49] damage stop intermission where you have

[11:51] to kill ads and like the best way to do

[11:53] it is to all group up on the other side

[11:56] of the room and just AFK and like I

[11:58] don't know man. It's it's the worst

[12:00] first boss I think in a in a long time

[12:02] because of that. And and it doesn't even

[12:04] like get that much faster during recar

[12:05] because you don't skip anything. You

[12:07] just still do the whole the whole phase.

[12:10] >> Actually, that's a good point.

[12:11] >> It's like closer to like Hellfire

[12:13] Assault kind of. It's like

[12:15] >> it is alarmingly close to that. Yeah.

[12:17] Yeah.

[12:17] >> Also really interesting, at least for my

[12:19] guild, this was the boss we spent the

[12:21] most in combat time progressing. Like

[12:22] this was a 9 minute 40 encounter for us.

[12:25] >> Oh, and every other Yeah. No, don't

[12:27] worry. Not total. Don't worry. We're

[12:29] bad, but not that bad. But yeah, it was

[12:31] just the longest fight in the raid for

[12:33] us.

[12:33] >> It It is a I think there have been worse

[12:35] first bosses in almost every other

[12:37] expansion, but this expansion had

[12:39] actually really good first bosses across

[12:41] the board, and I think this one's just

[12:43] worse than the other two. Uh, I don't

[12:45] think there's anything like particularly

[12:47] agreed. Like I don't think Olgra is like

[12:48] a bottom three first boss of all time.

[12:51] Uh, like on Mythic, it's definitely not

[12:53] a turbo stinker, but it's just not it's

[12:56] not amazing. Uh, Franc would have been a

[12:58] fine fight if it was like 5 minutes. You

[13:00] know, I think the fact that it's almost

[13:01] 10 minutes makes it really agree to

[13:03] immediately

[13:04] >> fight time is something they've really

[13:05] keyed in on to the point where they

[13:06] don't make end bosses that are like

[13:08] longer than 10 minutes anymore, right?

[13:09] Like a 10-minute fight is like too long

[13:11] or the longest they should be. And the

[13:13] fact that you're doing the most boring

[13:14] fight in the raid for that long is is a

[13:17] is a choice for sure. Um, Franc, when

[13:20] you do B-roll of like I I expect like

[13:23] probably like a little B-roll for like

[13:24] each boss when we actually start

[13:26] discussing it.

[13:27] >> If you could find the method strat,

[13:29] >> okay,

[13:30] >> for this boss. Do you know what I mean

[13:31] by that?

[13:32] >> I don't.

[13:34] >> Okay. It's a huge meme in our guild, but

[13:36] basically method like we just did this

[13:38] fight Natty. Ekko did it. Natty and

[13:39] Method was the third guild to enter the

[13:41] raid. And they like tried this I guess

[13:43] like cheese strat in the intermission

[13:46] where apparently the boss could never

[13:47] like fly through or whatever. And they

[13:49] just like all pixel stacked on this edge

[13:51] and then it didn't work and they just

[13:53] wiped to the boss and the boss just like

[13:55] [ __ ] murdered them. And I just

[13:56] thought it was one of the craziest

[13:57] things to try to do. So if you could

[13:58] find that that would be Scott will have

[14:00] it.

[14:00] >> It doesn't do anything. can stand in the

[14:02] blue circle

[14:04] right next to the portal on the little

[14:07] >> triangle of the platform. The ads are

[14:09] coming out. They're going to gather them

[14:10] all up. That is genius. I don't know if

[14:12] Well, I I didn't see any other kills

[14:13] from any other guild, so I'm not sure if

[14:14] THIS IS OH, NO.

[14:16] >> OH, NO. This

[14:17] >> Oh, that's so

[14:18] >> for sure.

[14:19] >> Beautiful. I'll hit up Scott.

[14:20] >> Okay. Um Okay. The uh 18 for me is

[14:25] Lumathar.

[14:26] >> I have it higher.

[14:27] >> Okay. I have it higher.

[14:29] >> Sweet. Uh Dratnos, you're 18. Uh, is the

[14:32] bloodbound horror?

[14:34] >> I have it a lot higher.

[14:35] >> I also have that higher.

[14:37] >> Uh, Franc

[14:38] >> Rick Reverb.

[14:39] >> Rick Rick Reverb. Uh, Draatnos doesn't

[14:43] have this on his board yet. I'm I'm very

[14:45] interested to hear your cook about Rick

[14:46] Reverb when we get there.

[14:48] >> Yeah, but a decent bit higher.

[14:49] >> Uh, okay. That means nothing because

[14:51] every time you've said that so far, it's

[14:52] been the next thing you said. Got

[14:53] >> him guessing.

[14:54] >> Yeah. Okay. Soul Hunters is uh my 17 and

[14:58] I think

[14:59] >> mine is uh Soulbinder Nazendry.

[15:02] >> Okay. And

[15:04] >> mine is Giwick.

[15:05] >> Oh, interesting. I was expecting you to

[15:07] have Giwick's higher. I'm actually

[15:08] really interested to hear your take on

[15:10] that. Um

[15:12] >> in a bit we have uh my 16 which is

[15:16] sticks bunk Junker.

[15:17] >> Hi.

[15:18] >> Cool. Dados.

[15:19] >> Uh my 16 is Lumathar.

[15:22] >> Sweet. Do we have three Lumars? Nope.

[15:23] We're sitting on like two on,

[15:25] >> but I'm coming on the third right now. I

[15:27] also have Blumthar at 60.

[15:29] >> Oh, sweet. Okay. Um, I have it the

[15:32] lowest, so I guess I'll start. Okay, so

[15:33] there there's a there's a few issues

[15:35] with this. I I like the idea of it like

[15:37] ramping in P1 of like the amount of

[15:38] soaks and and they did a good job from

[15:41] PTR. If anyone remembers watching this

[15:43] on PTR doing it, this was like the most

[15:45] punishing. Like basically if a beam went

[15:46] into the boss, you just like died, which

[15:48] is just the craziest technical like

[15:50] second boss difficulty ever. Uh, I don't

[15:53] know. You could like kill the spots with

[15:54] a lot of people dead. The last phase

[15:56] just like a run around the room in a

[15:57] circle. This is near like the like

[15:59] middleish of the list. So, I don't think

[16:01] it's like super bad. Uh, but it just uh

[16:05] just had had some issues and I think the

[16:07] lust timing being like on the pole

[16:09] rather than the damage amp feels kind of

[16:11] weird just because like the first phase

[16:12] was so much harder than the second

[16:13] phase. What do you guys think, Lumathar?

[16:16] You don't, by the way, if you're just

[16:17] like it's a boss and you don't have any

[16:19] a lot to say, that's totally fine.

[16:22] coming at it from a perspective of like

[16:24] a a guy who who casts too much and

[16:26] doesn't have a lot of mobility. And I

[16:27] don't know, I just felt like the fight

[16:29] you had to be everywhere. You had to run

[16:30] a lot. You had to burst down things. I

[16:33] don't know. I just I didn't really ever

[16:34] have fun during the fight. And it was a

[16:36] massive step up in difficulty from

[16:38] Plexel and Soul Binder before it. So, it

[16:41] just wasn't a fun experience really.

[16:43] >> Yeah. I think the boss had too much

[16:45] health like for where it was in the

[16:46] raid. It just I don't know. It's not

[16:48] even that it was that hard after you had

[16:51] a a little bit of gear, but like god, it

[16:53] just took forever to kill. Even in even

[16:55] in farms, it's still like a a long fight

[16:57] even with a bunch of extra gear. And

[16:59] then yeah, the difficulty of it, I don't

[17:01] know. I mean, I don't think it was way

[17:02] above where it needed to be in the raid,

[17:04] but it's probably a little high. And I

[17:06] agree, it's also just not like that fun

[17:08] of a kind of difficulty. I I also think

[17:11] there is one big issue with the fight

[17:13] and that is the little circles that

[17:16] spawn under I believe ranged characters

[17:18] that lineup that happens as you're

[17:20] killing the wall. Maybe this doesn't

[17:22] happen anymore, but in progression, like

[17:25] right when you were killing the second

[17:26] wall, like basically everyone was

[17:27] stacked up ready to leave. And if you

[17:30] killed that thing a little bit too slow

[17:31] or people were like a little bit too

[17:33] spread, there was actually no safe spot

[17:35] and you just got completely exploded.

[17:37] And that just seemed like an

[17:38] unintentional level of difficulty that

[17:40] was like really annoying to deal with.

[17:42] >> You had to like you had to have the

[17:43] ranged bait before you started running

[17:45] out.

[17:45] >> Yeah. Yeah. Like I was trying to

[17:46] convince my range to just like while

[17:48] we're getting ready to kill the second

[17:49] to last web or the last web, can you

[17:51] please stand under the boss's hitbox so

[17:53] all the melee don't have to worry about

[17:54] this and every single time they're like

[17:56] loosely spread and it's just a total

[17:57] [ __ ] show.

[17:58] >> Oh yeah. Also on our kill of this boss,

[18:00] I died to a mechanic I couldn't see. So

[18:02] I blame

[18:02] >> No, I mean that's a W. That that that

[18:04] deserves to go lower because of that.

[18:07] >> All right. My uh my 15 is Sikran.

[18:11] >> I have that significantly high.

[18:13] >> Okay. My 15 is Sikran. Okay.

[18:16] >> Okay. We're not talking about that for a

[18:18] while. So, strap it. I got Forgew Weaver

[18:20] at 15.

[18:21] >> You have You have Sikran and like where?

[18:24] Okay.

[18:25] >> I got that. I got that [ __ ]

[18:26] high, man. I like that.

[18:27] >> All right. We have Forge Weaver Arz,

[18:30] which is I believe the first time

[18:32] anyone's put that on the list. Actually,

[18:33] I was expecting some dobbies on Forge

[18:36] Weaver. Like, like Dano, shouldn't you

[18:38] hate Well, we'll talk about it when we

[18:39] get there. Um,

[18:41] >> yeah, I have it higher, but uh

[18:42] >> not a huge amount higher.

[18:44] >> Okay. Uh, Forge Weaver for me. 14.

[18:46] >> Forge is your 14. Okay, I have it

[18:47] higher.

[18:48] >> What is yours?

[18:49] >> Uh, my 14 is Rick Reverb.

[18:50] >> Does that mean we can talk about it now

[18:52] or

[18:52] >> I think so. Yeah, I think both,

[18:53] >> I believe. Oh, I copied it from another

[18:55] That's interesting. I actually kind of

[18:57] want Dratnos to start. Why do you have

[18:58] this so high?

[18:59] >> It's a funny boss.

[19:01] >> It has the um It has the music and

[19:04] stuff. One of my guildies had a week or

[19:05] where like it'd play a song that you

[19:07] downloaded into your MP3 and it was like

[19:09] when when the boss dropped and Yeah. I

[19:12] don't know. It was a vibe.

[19:13] >> Yeah. Crazy.

[19:14] >> Also, I liked that. I I I liked how

[19:16] difficult it was that early in the Look,

[19:18] man. Okay. Objectively, it's worse than

[19:20] this, but like for me, it was really

[19:23] funny watching guilds struggle against

[19:24] this as a third boss. They're just

[19:26] getting walled by the third boss on the

[19:28] the first couple weeks on this thing. I

[19:30] don't know.

[19:31] >> Okay. I What do you think? Uh, well, my

[19:34] guild did the we we we cheeded it on

[19:37] Prague. Wait, what does that even mean?

[19:39] >> Where we had an extra tank who ran

[19:40] around and soaked all the debuffs on the

[19:43] original prog so we didn't like very few

[19:45] pulls relative to world rank. Um, which

[19:47] has made re-claring really annoying cuz

[19:49] they fixed that really fast.

[19:50] >> Uh, but yeah, I don't know. This fight

[19:52] was great as a shadow priest. Um,

[19:54] hitting ads was fun, but everything else

[19:56] about the fight sucked bad, which is why

[19:58] I have it really low. I mean, I have

[20:00] this super low for one reason and one

[20:02] reason only was just RNG. Like, how the

[20:05] ads spawned was just completely

[20:07] ridiculous. Like, if you're going to

[20:08] make you unable to kill an ad means that

[20:10] you wipe, you need to have better spawn

[20:13] logic. They spawn within 10 yards of the

[20:14] boss. Like, they can spawn like across

[20:16] the room and they could be stacked

[20:18] versus not stacked. So, I was looking at

[20:19] polls on like when we were figuring out

[20:21] how to kill this where, you know, do we

[20:22] bring in like a do we farm more gear

[20:25] before doing this so we waste less time?

[20:27] Uh, what classes do we bring in? Okay,

[20:30] when we got like two spawns in the fight

[20:32] to be relatively stacked to where we

[20:34] could just AoE them down, our boss

[20:35] damage went up by like by the end of the

[20:38] fight, the boss was just like 6% lower.

[20:40] That's such an insane swing on a check

[20:44] like that just due to pure you could

[20:46] have him on the wall, it doesn't matter.

[20:48] just like pure RNG. Yeah, I thought and

[20:49] and and this just I like symmetrical e

[20:53] not easy but like a way for you to brain

[20:55] out a symmetrical solution to a fight

[20:59] and me figuring out Rick reverb was so

[21:01] annoying because there was no way to do

[21:02] things like in a line of two like that

[21:04] one does solo at the beginning of every

[21:06] phase mean you had to have like a like

[21:08] some weird kind of setup and I just

[21:11] always found it very frustrating that

[21:12] there was no like perfect way to

[21:13] strategize this just personally I just

[21:15] found Rick reverb I just spent so many

[21:17] hours in raid plan trying to come up

[21:18] with some [ __ ] And every time I thought

[21:19] it was great, the guild was like, "Yeah,

[21:21] I don't like it." I'm like, "Okay,

[21:22] fuck." Then I just went back and just

[21:23] came up with just the most basic dog

[21:25] [ __ ] kindergartener strat for this. And

[21:27] that just ended up being the best thing

[21:28] to do. Uh, and that I just hate fights

[21:30] like that.

[21:31] >> I forget. Were you guys uh like close to

[21:33] enrage when you killed it?

[21:34] >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you would you

[21:36] would you basically

[21:37] >> frustrating for you guys?

[21:39] >> For us, it didn't really matter, you

[21:40] know like

[21:40] >> Yeah, the first couple like

[21:43] >> enrage kills. It was uh it was super

[21:45] hard for it was in the raid.

[21:47] >> Yeah. Yeah, it was funny. It was a good

[21:49] prank by Blizzard.

[21:50] >> Um, okay. Onwards. Francing.

[21:55] >> Okay. Yeah, I had it lower. So,

[21:57] >> you had it lower. I haven't listed it

[21:59] yet. So,

[22:00] >> okay. So, we will not talk.

[22:01] >> We continue. Uh, we have my 13, which is

[22:07] Vexi.

[22:08] >> I have it high.

[22:08] >> I have that high.

[22:09] >> My 13 is Forge Weaver.

[22:11] >> Uh, did we proc a talk? We did.

[22:13] >> Right, Max? Oh, you did.

[22:15] >> Yeah, we we both listed it already. Um,

[22:17] okay. I mean, we all have we pretty much

[22:19] agree here. We have Forgew Weaver within

[22:20] a three ranking thing in the middle. So,

[22:23] neither of us were were super offended

[22:26] by this, but none of us thought it like

[22:28] really really owned. And this is, I

[22:30] believe, going to be very different

[22:32] perspectives, right? Like we killed

[22:34] Forge Weaver when it was crazy style

[22:36] like 1 second beams and all that [ __ ]

[22:38] Draatos was like I don't even know if

[22:40] you decided to fight the boss that week

[22:42] or if you waited. We we we got it to 5%

[22:45] that week and then we didn't kill it.

[22:47] >> Oh. And then you and then you like

[22:48] pulled it the next week and it was just

[22:49] a total [ __ ] joke.

[22:50] >> Yeah, we one shot it the next week

[22:51] basically. Like it was it was uh it it

[22:54] was it was it felt like you remember

[22:57] fighting Anduin pre- nerf and then

[22:59] coming back like 3 months later and it's

[23:01] like oh this boss is, you know, a

[23:03] completely different thing. It felt like

[23:04] all of that had happened in one reset

[23:07] for that boss.

[23:08] >> Yeah. And that was uh and then and then

[23:11] Franca is killing it way later when it's

[23:13] in its like non-offensive very easy

[23:16] fourth boss thing. But I think it's

[23:17] still if I remember Forge Weaver even

[23:20] after all those nerfs still was a

[23:22] challenge for a lot of guilds I think

[23:23] because of just like

[23:25] >> the CC chain.

[23:27] >> It was mostly the CC chain. Yeah. Like

[23:29] it it was a kind of frustrating boss to

[23:31] wipe to cuz we didn't like it it didn't

[23:33] feel like it was super outplayable by

[23:35] most of the raid. It usually came down

[23:37] to like two individuals and whether or

[23:39] not they could knock the orbs into the

[23:40] pools. And uh for reclers, we just

[23:42] straight up ended up putting the balls

[23:44] behind the pools not to deal with the CC

[23:46] stuff. Realistically, we probably should

[23:48] have done that during proc too cuz that

[23:50] is just way more consistent.

[23:52] >> That's my fault. We we were talking

[23:54] about doing that in progression

[23:56] >> and a few people were like, "We should

[23:57] go behind and I'm like, well, if we go

[24:00] in front, we're going to get like way

[24:01] more damage on these." And it was such a

[24:02] tight damage check that we coordinated.

[24:04] But people missed their typhoons all the

[24:06] time cuz like it was genuinely like a

[24:08] really tight timing and really hard. And

[24:09] on a fight where as guild skill level

[24:11] and experience level goes down and

[24:13] investment level, the thing that becomes

[24:16] the hardest, this is why and was so hard

[24:18] was assigning people to press a like

[24:20] utility button at a very specific time

[24:22] like a CC chain on anything. That is

[24:24] like the hardest thing for guilds to do.

[24:26] The the lower you go, it's just

[24:28] something about it is just you have to

[24:29] rely on someone. It's very binary. If

[24:31] someone misses it, it's just [ __ ]

[24:32] over. And that is just so challenging.

[24:35] And I think no matter how much they

[24:36] nerfed this boss, that still was really

[24:38] really hard.

[24:39] >> Yeah. And like realistically, we

[24:41] completely blew the boss up um near the

[24:44] end. Like we we got like 10 seconds in

[24:46] the last phase. So we really didn't need

[24:48] the boss damage. It was really just, you

[24:50] know, doing what better guilds were

[24:52] doing for no reason. Um and that kind of

[24:55] [ __ ] my experience of the boss up.

[24:57] >> Prime example of how raid leading a

[24:58] guild at a lower level. the first guild

[25:00] that decided, you know what, we don't

[25:02] need the people are going to mess up the

[25:03] typhoons more than we're going to miss

[25:04] the damage on this stuff. Let's just put

[25:06] them behind that. That is a perfect

[25:08] example of like good strategizing and uh

[25:11] stuff that now that something is

[25:13] different than when the world first

[25:14] killed killed it. Uh

[25:15] >> dude, the crazy thing is we I as soon as

[25:18] we started pulling that boss, I was

[25:19] like, "Okay, we're probably not going to

[25:21] kill this this week. Let's just put it

[25:22] behind cuz that'll be easier and like

[25:25] next week it'll probably be killable

[25:27] that way." And then we were getting it

[25:29] like deep enough there's like okay

[25:31] actually we can make the DPS check if we

[25:32] start putting it in front. So then we we

[25:34] had to do the midweek swap over.

[25:37] >> Oh how many wipes did you have to that?

[25:38] It had to be just all the time.

[25:41] >> Yeah. Uh well we actually we picked it

[25:43] up pretty quick because we yeah we got

[25:44] it to 5% so we we saw the whole fight.

[25:46] We just like didn't have the damage at

[25:48] the end the overall damage. Um but I

[25:51] think we would have if we'd had a couple

[25:52] more hours of frog. I don't know. It's

[25:54] one It's one of many fights on this list

[25:56] where it's like I have a lot of negative

[25:58] feelings about the timing and severity

[26:01] of nerfs for my experience, but I do

[26:03] think the actual Forge Weaver fight that

[26:06] did exist for that week was good enough

[26:08] to save it. Like it basically I'm

[26:10] ranking it above all these fights that I

[26:12] think have no real redeeming

[26:14] characteristics. And this one does,

[26:16] right? Like that was actually really

[26:18] sweet. Yeah, there is another and I

[26:20] don't know if you'd consider this a

[26:21] downside or an upside. I think it's a

[26:22] downside. This boss had this super weird

[26:25] thing where if you hit a certain

[26:26] threshold before the last phase started,

[26:28] the boss would AFK for like 8 seconds

[26:30] doing this knockback cast and it just

[26:32] made the last phase a total joke because

[26:34] it just gave you infinite more time of

[26:35] standing still. And I I I can't remember

[26:37] a boss that had something like that.

[26:40] That's just so I always thought it was

[26:41] like a I thought it was a bug.

[26:42] >> I think the jailer had this thing where

[26:44] if you did something right uh it kind of

[26:46] stopped doing mechanics for a bit as

[26:47] well. I think that one was pretty

[26:49] >> Oh yeah, if you did something right.

[26:50] Yeah. Uh but it wasn't a bug though. It

[26:52] was like

[26:53] >> No, it was an accident. It was an

[26:54] accident.

[26:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh

[26:57] >> okay. Uh Franc

[26:59] 13.

[27:00] >> Uh Soulbinder.

[27:01] >> Soulbinder. I think we both had it

[27:03] lower.

[27:04] >> Okay. I I don't know how you guys have I

[27:07] mean I guess we're like kind of close.

[27:09] There's a big soup of bosses in the

[27:11] middle of this where just a slight

[27:12] opinion change can have something go a

[27:15] few things higher. I the only thing I

[27:17] could see as a positive review of

[27:18] Soulbinder is when you're doing this

[27:20] boss on farm, it's just like super

[27:22] basic. There's a little AoE thing,

[27:23] you're single targeting, very little

[27:24] going on. And for an early boss, it's

[27:27] like the assault of Zakali uh opinion

[27:30] where it's like I don't know, it's just

[27:31] kind of non-offensive. You just go in

[27:33] there and kill it real quick and it's

[27:34] all right. You get some loot from it.

[27:35] Like maybe that's the soul binding

[27:36] argument. But like the fact that the

[27:37] boss never changes in any way. You just

[27:39] you just do the same thing over and over

[27:41] again and it's so basic. I just feel

[27:42] like is it's so uninspired that it's

[27:44] hard to rank it very high.

[27:46] >> I mean the the only reason I have it

[27:48] this high is because I don't really have

[27:49] anything bad to say about it. Like

[27:51] nothing really happens. You just kind of

[27:53] there dies and then I go out and that's

[27:54] it.

[27:55] >> I mean I had it lower, but it's like I I

[27:58] get it right. It's it doesn't do

[27:59] anything bad. Like you're you have no

[28:01] negative experiences while fighting Soul

[28:02] Binder and his injury, right? Like you

[28:04] walk up, you kill incredibly

[28:06] forgettable.

[28:07] >> That's kind of cool. Like I don't know.

[28:08] That's that experience is much better

[28:10] than like fighting an actively unfun

[28:12] boss, which some of these were. Also,

[28:14] their dungeon journal, they try really

[28:17] hard to have the dungeon journal even in

[28:19] a nonlinear raid like uh Giwick's raid

[28:22] is probably the best example of this

[28:23] where like you I think you technically

[28:24] could have fought any of the first five

[28:26] bosses first that they still list their

[28:29] dungeon journal in the difficulty

[28:31] intended difficulty order which means

[28:33] that in a raid like this with very

[28:35] little uh nonlinear stuff there the only

[28:38] choice that existed was uh was whether

[28:42] you killed Soulbinder or Lumathar first,

[28:44] right? I think I guess you could have

[28:45] technically gone to Fractalus or Soul

[28:46] Hunters, but like Lumathar is the second

[28:49] boss in the journal, meaning that they

[28:51] intended Lumathar to be easier than

[28:52] Soulbinder. That is just what that

[28:54] means. And the fact that Soulbinder was

[28:57] so much easier than Lumathar, or I guess

[28:59] the way you could look at it is Lumathar

[29:01] was so much more difficult than

[29:01] Soulbinder. And I ranked both of those

[29:04] bosses lower than I would have because

[29:06] someone did something very wrong in the

[29:08] fight. And and I know that doesn't

[29:09] really matter to a lot of people like

[29:10] whether which one's the second or third

[29:11] boss. I just know that they intended

[29:13] Soulbinder to be harder. So, what could

[29:15] have went wrong for it to be that wrong?

[29:17] >> Yeah. How was that fight supposed to be

[29:18] hard? I don't know.

[29:20] >> I don't know where they saw the

[29:21] difficulty. Got to agree with

[29:22] >> Dra. Okay. Um, cool. Soulbinder. Yeah.

[29:26] Makes sense that also that Soulbinder

[29:28] will be the least that we talk about any

[29:29] fight cuz

[29:30] >> Yeah.

[29:31] >> What what what is even happening here?

[29:33] Uh, okay. My 12 is rationan. Do you guys

[29:37] both have that lower? I think you do.

[29:39] >> I do have that lower. Yeah,

[29:40] >> I had it lower. Yeah. I'm going to

[29:41] defend it before Draos thrashes it. We

[29:45] one-shot this boss, but it was

[29:46] exhilarating. We didn't know what was

[29:48] happening the whole time. We were like,

[29:51] for the first time ever, you're just

[29:52] like actually like rationan done any

[29:55] other way runs away after like a

[29:57] two-minute cycle. This boss like every

[29:58] 40 seconds is charging across the room.

[30:00] And it was just what the [ __ ] is

[30:02] happening? This is so different from

[30:04] heroic. And I've never seen them do a

[30:06] boss like that before. And I give it

[30:08] points for just being unique and really

[30:11] having a completely like unique boss

[30:13] experience. Uh it was very easy. I think

[30:16] you could also take points away from

[30:18] rationan because I believe forgewaver

[30:20] and sticks were both direct casualties

[30:23] of rationan being the way it was. Uh but

[30:27] I don't know. I I just thought rationan

[30:28] was cooler than I expected to be. That's

[30:30] coming from someone who saw the heroic

[30:33] version of the boss or during testing

[30:34] and we were ranking these bosses

[30:35] pre-expansion and I said it feels like

[30:37] rationale was made by AI which I should

[30:40] not have said and as you might have

[30:42] expected people who design bosses really

[30:45] really really don't like it when you

[30:48] imply that the boss they made was made

[30:50] with with artificial intelligence. So

[30:52] I'm just ranking it a little higher.

[30:53] >> So you you gave us some pity points.

[30:55] That was

[30:55] >> Well, I maybe slightly, but also I I did

[30:59] I did find it very entertaining. It was

[31:00] very fun to do.

[31:01] >> Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, I don't know.

[31:03] This fight was It's just a forgettable

[31:05] fight. Like, you just kind of run up and

[31:07] down. You get pulled. The boss dies.

[31:10] Like, nothing nothing really happens.

[31:11] And I'm playing a slow ass class. That

[31:13] [ __ ] sucked. Just running slow, having

[31:16] no fun. Yeah,

[31:16] >> dude. I don't know. I think it was like

[31:18] a little worse than than those because

[31:21] you also set up this huge difficulty

[31:25] chasm that were like not just the

[31:27] problem of the next two raids they made

[31:29] the fourth boss nuclear difficulty

[31:30] because of this. I I don't think you can

[31:32] really fairly blame Rashan for that cuz

[31:33] that's like that's still their

[31:35] decision-m but like the fact that brood

[31:37] twister was such an awful experience

[31:39] directly followed from how quickly you

[31:41] got there which a huge part of that

[31:43] problem was how easy rashon and to a

[31:45] lesser extent sick and and stuff were as

[31:47] well before it. So I think it it needs

[31:49] to get some of the blame for that too. I

[31:52] mean,

[31:52] >> I'm not going to blame Rashanax on

[31:54] ration, man. He did nothing.

[31:57] It is a real thing. What Draos is saying

[31:59] is better, but Oven axe is unredeemable.

[32:02] That boss is the worst thing they've

[32:03] ever made.

[32:04] >> Okay, I I have a maybe a little bit

[32:07] different way of looking at this. So, I

[32:09] think forgewaver I think as long as you

[32:12] make eight boss raids, it is extremely

[32:14] likely that you are going to have a

[32:16] rationan to brood twister jump. You're

[32:19] going to have a Rick Reverb to sticks, a

[32:23] whatever boss you killed into uh Forge

[32:26] Weaver, like forge weaver sticks,

[32:28] whatever that th those are. With only

[32:30] eight bosses, it's really hard to get

[32:33] from a first boss to what a last boss

[32:37] is. And they're just simply there isn't

[32:39] enough bosses for there not to be some

[32:41] jagged spike in difficulty throughout.

[32:44] So, I don't even know if I would blame

[32:45] Rashin for Rovenax. I would almost blame

[32:49] not having 10 boss raids on basically

[32:51] all three of the raids in this expansion

[32:53] having that issue.

[32:54] >> Yeah, I think there there's definitely I

[32:56] I am a big fan of going up to more

[32:58] bosses as well. But I do think that when

[33:00] the jump is from one pull to over a

[33:03] hundred in one boss like that

[33:06] >> that is a little bit more than

[33:08] necessary.

[33:09] >> Isn't that what happened in the other

[33:10] two bosses too though? Is that identical

[33:12] to Rick Reverb? I guess Rick reverb was

[33:14] a little bit harder than

[33:15] >> these are like is like you know seven to

[33:19] to 100 which is still really bad but

[33:21] like literally one to

[33:23] >> how many people one shot Rashan.

[33:25] >> I think we had four pulls.

[33:26] >> We were the only guild in the top 10 to

[33:28] do it. So I don't know how many.

[33:29] >> But also the difficulty spike in at

[33:31] least mana forge wasn't that bad for us.

[33:33] Like Lumathar was a 31 pull boss. We did

[33:35] 33 on forgew weaver. We did 18 on

[33:38] Fractalus and then

[33:39] >> yeah, the difficulty was even for most

[33:41] other guilds in on Rick Reverb as well,

[33:43] right? Cuz like Reverb was uh was 30

[33:46] pulls, 50 pulls for a lot of guilds.

[33:48] >> Okay, so Lr Rinan and and just before we

[33:52] move off of this, I'm very interested in

[33:55] what difficulty curve spikes look like

[33:58] in the expansion because it's just crazy

[34:00] that this happened three raids in a row

[34:01] and basically hasn't happened before

[34:03] this expansion. Uh I Oh, Biff is saying

[34:07] that method one shot ration. All right,

[34:08] I made that up. L me. Um okay. Uh but I

[34:13] want to see next expansion how that

[34:14] works. And especially with the way

[34:16] they're laying out these raids, right?

[34:18] You're getting seven total bosses within

[34:20] two raids right away and then you're

[34:21] getting a two boss raid. But the last

[34:23] boss of the first raid is supposed to be

[34:25] as hard as the second to last boss. And

[34:28] the last boss and the raid that's coming

[34:30] out delayed is supposed to be the true

[34:31] end boss. But then the one boss raid is

[34:33] supposed to be the fourth boss. I I

[34:35] could just see a lot of weird difficulty

[34:37] curve swings. Let's just revisit this

[34:40] after next raid. I could I could see

[34:42] there being another rationand situation.

[34:44] Not just because it's happened three

[34:45] times in a row, but because just the way

[34:46] the raids are laid out. Uh okay,

[34:48] Dratnos, you're number 12.

[34:50] >> Uh my number 12 was Sticks Bunk Junker.

[34:53] >> Okay. Uh we both have that lower. All

[34:56] right, Draos, what is your redeeming

[34:58] qualities of Sticks? Yeah. I mean, you

[35:00] driving around on the ball. That was

[35:02] kind of fun. It was There's a lot of

[35:04] He's a tank. He's a tank. He's a tank.

[35:05] He's tank.

[35:05] >> Were you Were you driving the ball every

[35:06] time?

[35:06] >> Yeah, man. I got to drive. I got a

[35:08] different game, bro. I get

[35:09] >> this. Sick. I mean, wouldn't that be the

[35:11] best example of this? Like, like, if

[35:13] you're going to take the ball as a

[35:15] negative, wouldn't talking to someone

[35:17] who did the ball literally multiple

[35:19] times every

[35:20] >> You see where the tank that did the ball

[35:21] was on the damage meter, man, that was

[35:23] not negative. Ros was on the top the

[35:25] entire time.

[35:25] >> Oh, true. Maybe that's it. driving

[35:27] around vroom vroom. Get

[35:29] >> I think the problem with the ball wasn't

[35:31] necessarily driving it though.

[35:32] >> Yeah. And and if you drove it one out of

[35:35] every, you know, 12 casts or whatever

[35:37] and so you got to do it once every

[35:38] couple pulls. It was both not often

[35:40] enough to be fun, but also when it did

[35:42] happen, you weren't like super practiced

[35:44] on it. So there was a good chance you'd

[35:45] screw it up. So I think the tank version

[35:47] of it was way more fun if you were, you

[35:49] know, just always always on the ball.

[35:51] >> Yeah. Now, the issue for me was also, at

[35:53] least with the the way my class played,

[35:55] like your cooldown timings could get

[35:57] really [ __ ] by getting a ball. And the

[36:00] chances of getting a ball were not

[36:01] really big enough to play around it

[36:03] every time. And it was like you had to

[36:04] hold sometimes and then not hold. And

[36:06] then

[36:06] >> some poles you get ball three times,

[36:08] some ps you get ball zero time. And

[36:10] yeah, I don't know. The ball kind of

[36:12] sucked.

[36:12] >> I thought about having sticks way

[36:14] higher. And the reason I went back on it

[36:16] is I remembered how much RNG there was.

[36:18] Uh yeah, like you had you were class

[36:20] stacking daughters and stuff, but like

[36:21] sometimes just all the all the the like

[36:25] little uh crabs you had to kill with the

[36:27] bombs. They just spawned on top of the

[36:29] balls and

[36:30] >> sometimes your daughters get ball man

[36:32] and then everything lives.

[36:33] >> Oh yeah, actually you have like sh So

[36:35] like one set later in the fight was

[36:37] heavily carried by shadow priest 2

[36:39] minutes and we were just like every pull

[36:41] just praying that they didn't get

[36:42] picked. Healers could get picked, by the

[36:44] way, which you were three healing this

[36:45] fight. Meaning that every time balls

[36:47] were coming out, there was one healer

[36:49] with cooldowns that was carrying you

[36:50] through the next little bit. And if they

[36:52] got picked, it was just red alert, all

[36:54] hellstones, all health pots, slam

[36:57] everything, and you would still wipe.

[36:58] And that I feel like that element of RNG

[37:01] in an already really hard boss is just

[37:03] poor boss design. Like that shouldn't

[37:05] like healers just simply shouldn't have

[37:06] gotten the ball. Pretty pretty uh

[37:08] blading. even if they didn't, you could

[37:10] still wipe to the DPS not getting it.

[37:13] Um, and then also, this is a famous boss

[37:16] that there's another boss later in the

[37:19] raid uh that also had this issue where

[37:22] you feel like you're you you should kill

[37:24] the boss far before you actually do. Uh,

[37:28] >> yeah,

[37:29] >> it's like uh bosses that trick you into

[37:31] thinking that you're farther than you

[37:32] are. And they almost all have one thing

[37:34] in common. The sticks ball is what it is

[37:37] in this example where over the course of

[37:39] 30 minutes you can have a stretch where

[37:41] basically the same people get picked

[37:43] just by pure RNG and naturally you will

[37:45] have really good pulls because

[37:47] everyone's not only experienced with the

[37:49] ball but they've done it recently and

[37:50] then you're like getting a crazy low

[37:52] pull. Okay, we wiped it 15%. And then

[37:55] for the next 30 minutes, entirely new

[37:57] people get it. And then before you can

[38:00] even have a chance to have the good

[38:01] people get it again, you're now

[38:02] regressing because you're just upset

[38:04] that you think you're playing bad

[38:06] because you can't identify that. And

[38:08] then and then now you're tilting for an

[38:10] hour because you think you're you all

[38:11] think that you're bad, right? And then

[38:13] that that's a bosses like that are

[38:15] infuriating and and you're not wrong in

[38:18] thinking that because it's almost

[38:19] impossible in real time to parse why

[38:21] that's happening. Like imagine a raid

[38:22] leader saying, "Oh guys, I know we're

[38:24] all feeling down that we wiped, but

[38:27] really on that pull, Draatnos and Frunk

[38:29] got the ball and they haven't gotten it

[38:30] all night and of course they were going

[38:32] to [ __ ] it up, you know? It's like like

[38:33] that's not No one wants to hear that,

[38:35] right? You you you want to, you know?"

[38:36] So So I I uh I think a lot of

[38:39] >> started on like putting people in either

[38:41] like you cannot bench people on that

[38:42] fight during prog.

[38:43] >> Oh my god.

[38:44] >> You're missing a guy. Good luck, bro.

[38:45] Good luck. New guy, good luck. Yeah,

[38:47] that's that is uh also just I don't know

[38:50] if this is a 21st man thing, but like

[38:52] seeing some people in your guild get the

[38:54] ball and even after countless VOD review

[38:57] and they've gotten the ball enough

[38:59] seeing them, this is just one of those

[39:01] mechanics where some people are just

[39:03] simply not going to get it. Like you you

[39:05] have a priority system. You run over

[39:06] this thing first. If you have the the

[39:09] hyenas in your way, they're a priority.

[39:11] And just seeing people like 80 pulls

[39:13] into this in the the best guild in the

[39:15] world or so they say. Just running into

[39:18] the medium over and over again because

[39:20] you're not big enough to actually soak

[39:21] it and just not changing that and being

[39:23] like this is [ __ ] Something's bugged.

[39:25] It's just insane. Like it's just [ __ ]

[39:27] insane.

[39:28] >> Uh I don't know. Very very frustrating.

[39:31] >> All right. You guys uh done with

[39:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. We can move on.

[39:34] >> Tank opinion. Tanks top of the meters.

[39:37] >> I'm I'm convinced I should have probably

[39:38] had it a little lower than this. the

[39:39] >> well I mean that's I don't even think

[39:41] that's I don't even think that's well

[39:43] okay a lot of stuff in the middle I

[39:44] could probably argue should be a little

[39:45] bit up or a little low because there's

[39:46] just a lot of bosses to rank but I do

[39:48] like that this is all our own individual

[39:49] thing this is why it's better in a tier

[39:51] list you don't have to agree yeah you

[39:52] don't have to agree you can have

[39:54] different perspectives there there's a

[39:55] reason why

[39:56] >> yourself on the top of the meters and

[39:57] you put it up there man I get

[39:59] >> W uh okay uh you're 12

[40:02] >> uh plexus

[40:04] >> uh is that the first boss of Oh I have

[40:06] this I have this higher

[40:08] >> manor mega Yeah, I have an iron.

[40:09] >> Yeah, this is a banger. Uh, and also

[40:12] another thing about randomly rating

[40:13] these is like really how do you rate

[40:16] like a mid end boss versus like a really

[40:18] good second boss?

[40:19] >> Like what what are you doing? You're

[40:20] you're you're just [ __ ] making it up.

[40:22] Like they're like it's it's really

[40:24] really hard to do that. Uh, okay. My 11

[40:28] is bloodbound horror.

[40:29] >> Mine is the soul hunters.

[40:31] >> Oh, wait. Did No, no. Francine is also

[40:35] at 11.

[40:36] >> Oh, yours is also at 11. And then Draos,

[40:38] what was yours?

[40:38] >> Yeah.

[40:39] >> Uh, Soul Hunters.

[40:40] >> Soul Hunters. Do we have three Soul

[40:42] Hunters now?

[40:43] >> Mine's Mine's the way down there. So,

[40:45] yeah.

[40:45] >> Uh, okay. Yeah. So, we have

[40:47] >> If you've played it, yeah,

[40:48] >> let's do uh let's do Soul Hunters first.

[40:50] I'll just delete that thing for now. Uh,

[40:52] okay. Uh, Francos

[40:56] has it almost top 10. So, let's let's

[40:58] start with Frock. Frank, what do you

[40:59] hate about this fight?

[41:00] >> That's all Reo's fault. We were having a

[41:03] nice recar. We're doing our thing. said,

[41:06] "Hey, let's do Soul Hunters. They got

[41:08] nice boots." Relo, that German bastard,

[41:11] decides to push a weak or update at some

[41:12] point that like changed the way they

[41:14] assigned people to things or like healer

[41:17] dispels or something like that. And we

[41:19] proceeded to spend the next 3 hours on

[41:21] Soul Hunter. For that sole reason, Soul

[41:24] Hunters is one of the lowest bosses for

[41:26] me. It was the least fun I've ever had

[41:27] rating. Um, it was it was a miserable

[41:30] experience. The boss was just it's so

[41:32] random. So much [ __ ] happens.

[41:34] Nothing is fun. Everything's bad.

[41:35] Everything is evil.

[41:37] >> I mean, I can't even complain because my

[41:39] my rationale on Kyza, which I'm sure

[41:42] both of you will be way higher, is like

[41:44] almost exactly the same thing as you,

[41:46] where like we had a very niche issue

[41:48] with the fight that just made me

[41:49] absolutely hate it. So, I certainly

[41:50] cannot dock you uh hating Soul Hunters.

[41:53] Dragnos, you have it relatively high. I

[41:55] think yours being 11 and mine being 17

[41:57] is probably enough actually to

[41:59] differentiate. So, like what what about

[42:00] Soul Hunters makes it feel like it's a

[42:02] pretty good fight? Yeah, I I thought it

[42:04] was a fun fight. You know, like your uh

[42:06] your fifth healer gets to play for a

[42:07] bit. That's cool. You know, you like

[42:09] that you're like your fifth healer. It's

[42:10] nice that they get the chance to to play

[42:12] some World of Warcraft every once in a

[42:13] while. Um I don't know, you're kind of

[42:16] moving the boss around the room and you

[42:18] get to sit all your useless melee

[42:19] players that you don't like. So, that's

[42:21] also nice, right? Like you got you got

[42:22] some of the people you like in the raid,

[42:23] some of the people you don't like on the

[42:24] bench. Um yeah, I don't know. The fight

[42:28] dies during the enrage in a kind of fun

[42:29] way for at least for me it did, right?

[42:31] where it's like you kill one of them and

[42:33] then it's sort of starting to do its

[42:35] pulse damage and it dies. Has really

[42:37] good loot as well, so it's an exciting

[42:38] boss to kill just cuz like what am I

[42:41] going to get the boots this week? No,

[42:42] I'm not. But I could I could think maybe

[42:44] I will, right? It's like playing the

[42:45] lottery. Okay. I I think I have two

[42:48] reasons that put it in between where

[42:49] both of you had it. So, so number one,

[42:52] uh I think leading up to the raid, the

[42:54] amount of like conversation points

[42:55] around like, oh my god, they made an

[42:57] optional boss that has like this crazy

[42:58] [ __ ] loot and how that progressed

[43:00] into just being it's just a regular boss

[43:02] in a raid.

[43:03] >> I just felt like I wasted my [ __ ]

[43:05] time. That's all. I don't know whose

[43:06] fault that is, but that happened. And

[43:08] then uh Okay, so you guys are mentioning

[43:12] uh you know like people in your raid

[43:14] like we issues. Weores were like kind of

[43:16] a thing here. I thought it was like kind

[43:17] of fun to strategize. I I thought the

[43:19] way you killed it was really cool. I'm a

[43:21] big fan in council bosses of not having

[43:23] them all die at the same time. I think

[43:25] having a non-binary punishment when they

[43:28] die, meaning that like it's not pass

[43:29] fail, if you do something wrong, you're

[43:31] inst it's instantly over. Having a like

[43:33] one council guy dies and then it starts

[43:36] ramping raid damage and then the same

[43:37] thing when the second one dies. I think

[43:39] that's so interesting as far as how you

[43:42] end up killing the fight. And it's so

[43:43] much more fun to figure out than just,

[43:46] okay, just make sure they all die at the

[43:47] same time. like figuring out which

[43:48] mechanics you want to have stop first

[43:51] and then how long can you heal through

[43:52] the ramping damage is really really fun.

[43:54] I would have had it where Dratnos had it

[43:56] for one but for one uh two reasons

[43:58] really. One was the one I already

[44:00] mentioned the uh the like talking points

[44:04] before the raid about the optional boss

[44:05] for no reason but also because of

[44:07] [ __ ] warlocks. So we would have

[44:09] killed this boss like five or six pulls

[44:12] minimum before this point. But our

[44:14] warlocks kept gaslighting us into not

[44:16] hitting the tank guy and instead hitting

[44:18] one of the lower health ones just so we

[44:20] could get it within execute range so

[44:22] they could gain some mobility. Uh

[44:25] >> the queen score gambit.

[44:26] >> Yeah. They were like just [ __ ] burn

[44:29] the the small guys, but then what would

[44:31] happen is they would just keep dying too

[44:33] fast even if we were all off of them

[44:35] after we got them into execute range.

[44:37] And then they would just die and it

[44:39] would just wipe us. And then we were

[44:40] like, you know what we're going to do,

[44:41] Warlocks? We're not going to do that at

[44:42] all. We're just going to hit the one

[44:44] with the most HP because that's the one

[44:45] we want to have die first anyway and

[44:47] then we're gonna win and then we

[44:49] one-shot it. So So I just I it just uh

[44:53] Warlock's wasting my time type [ __ ]

[44:55] Only reason.

[44:57] >> Yeah, I'm not going to lie. I've been

[44:58] convinced to to move it up a spot solely

[45:00] because Draos mentioned that there were

[45:01] almost no melee. Something I had almost

[45:03] completely forgot about this encounter.

[45:05] >> Would you like to do that? Yeah. Can you

[45:07] can you move fractals down one for me

[45:09] and soul hunters up one? Yeah.

[45:10] >> Um

[45:11] >> yeah, [ __ ] you. Relo.

[45:13] >> Wow. Wow.

[45:14] >> No, check the screenshot I posted uh in

[45:16] the chat by the way after our raid.

[45:18] >> These are Re's weak or a fixes after

[45:21] their raid on this day. Soul hunters

[45:23] dispel weak or a fix. Actual soul

[45:25] hunters fix now. Soul hunters dispel

[45:27] weak or fix some minor dimensions

[45:28] changes. So it happened over the course

[45:30] of three and then franc also after that

[45:31] posted a a like nuclear explosion gift

[45:35] which I I'm going to say if you guys

[45:37] ever want to post this uh just be

[45:39] careful. Do not be sponsored by

[45:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. Don't Don't post this gift

[45:45] in the wrong situations is all I'll say.

[45:47] Uh okay.

[45:48] >> I want you to know that GIF is also in

[45:50] Rio's DMs from that read.

[45:51] >> Beautiful. All right. Um, okay. Wow. If

[45:54] no one actually followed that whole

[45:56] Honda stuff, they're just so confused

[45:57] over what the [ __ ] I'm talking about.

[45:58] But all good. Uh, Franc number 11.

[46:02] >> Blood Hound

[46:03] >> Blood Bloodbound horror. And that is uh

[46:05] Oh, yeah. You already told me that. That

[46:07] is the I believe the last we have it.

[46:10] >> Yeah, cuz I had it in 18.

[46:11] >> Yeah, you had it a little lower. I just

[46:13] think Bloodbound is a [ __ ] banger

[46:14] second boss. I I don't know how much

[46:16] higher you can put a like second boss, I

[46:18] guess. Except I do have a second boss

[46:20] higher as well as I think both of you

[46:21] do. Uh but I don't know. It just it

[46:24] owns, right? You like rotate in a

[46:25] circle, you AoE some ads when you're

[46:27] downstairs, I guess like if you're a

[46:29] DPS, you kind of want to go down. I I

[46:31] forget if it's first or second because

[46:32] if you like use your stuff on the pole,

[46:34] it's kind of like

[46:36] >> it [snorts] depends on how much you

[46:37] cleave and whatnot. I think for me it

[46:38] was technically best to go down second

[46:40] because it also lined up better with

[46:41] your second set of cool downs or

[46:42] something like that.

[46:42] >> Yeah, exactly. But like if you killed it

[46:44] after the third set of ads, you'd want

[46:46] to go down first and third and hold and

[46:48] >> Yeah.

[46:49] >> Yeah. I don't know.

[46:50] >> I don't know. It was fun. Nothing too

[46:52] major happened. Boss died pretty fast.

[46:54] >> If every boss If every second boss in

[46:56] WoW's history was bloodbound horror in

[46:58] just a slightly different way, we'd be

[46:59] chilling there. At least in terms of

[47:01] quality. Big fan.

[47:02] >> Yeah. I don't really know why I have it

[47:04] that low. That that was pretty

[47:05] unfortunate because I I think you guys

[47:07] [laughter] I can't I can't find

[47:08] something to complain about about it. So

[47:11] rather [clears throat] than make

[47:12] something stupid up, I Yeah, good deal.

[47:14] >> That happened.

[47:15] >> Yeah, Reptar really agreed with that. I

[47:16] don't think you heard it in Discord, but

[47:17] he started yelling.

[47:18] >> I heard like a tiny bit. It got like

[47:20] caught by the noise fresh or whatever.

[47:22] >> Yeah. Um Yeah. Okay, that's it.

[47:24] Bloodbound horror. Good fight. Um my 10.

[47:28] We're getting into the bangers. So,

[47:30] let's start it off with a huge banger.

[47:33] Silken Court. Uh,

[47:34] >> all right. Let's talk about it. I need

[47:36] to know why this said 10 immediately.

[47:38] >> I mean, dude, it's just cool. It had The

[47:40] only issue with Silken Court was it was

[47:42] over nerfed, right? It was right after

[47:44] the Kyza one tank thing. So, they like

[47:45] nerfed this fight because of all the one

[47:48] tank stuff. You could one tank Silken

[47:50] Court. So, they like just nerfed the

[47:52] [ __ ] out of the fight. So, you brought a

[47:53] second tank even though it never needed

[47:55] to be nerfed with two tanks. Because

[47:56] like if the damage tech was harder, I

[47:58] think it would have been more

[47:58] interesting. I don't I just don't

[47:59] understand why a lot of people don't

[48:00] like this fight. Like it was pretty cool

[48:02] to strategize. And I understand that's

[48:03] not something that everyone would do on

[48:04] this, but like the way you actually

[48:06] rotated and why was just really cool.

[48:09] The way you had to like do CC, uh having

[48:13] people go under for dispels, I just feel

[48:15] like it all it it and and I give them

[48:17] major points for being unique. There's

[48:19] never been a fight like Silken Court.

[48:21] And and since then they've done the

[48:23] silken court bit just in slightly less

[48:25] punishing ways. Um but I don't know like

[48:28] like also visually like the boss like

[48:31] charges across the room into some webs.

[48:33] Damage amps are kind of cool. You can

[48:34] get like two target damage amps. Your

[48:36] boss positioning really mattered. I

[48:37] don't know like why do why do you guys

[48:39] hate it?

[48:39] >> You want to go first?

[48:40] >> Yeah. I mean, I think that it did have

[48:42] those merits, but when you weren't

[48:45] trailblazing this boss, it was very very

[48:48] like you will do exactly what the guild

[48:51] before you did. And like the there's

[48:54] very little room for creativity or

[48:56] anything here. It was mostly a fight

[48:58] about just like understanding why they

[49:00] did exactly what they did. And there are

[49:01] some fights where it's like, "Hey, huh,

[49:04] I'm going to do something different than

[49:05] them, like cuz I think this is going to

[49:06] be better for us." And then this was a

[49:08] fight where if you ever did that, you

[49:10] would learn the hard way why they why

[49:12] you guys did something, right? It's

[49:13] like, "Oh, [ __ ] I

[49:15] >> I we lost a bunch of pulls because I

[49:17] tried to do something cute here, right?"

[49:18] And like this does not actually work. I

[49:20] need to do exactly what Liquid did or

[49:22] else I'm I'm uh I'm wiping. And

[49:25] >> I don't know that to me that puts a a

[49:27] ceiling on how high a boss can go.

[49:29] >> The fight felt incredibly like

[49:32] one-dimensional. It's like either you do

[49:34] exactly what the robot says or you wipe.

[49:36] And there was no real in between and

[49:38] there was no real like extra difficult.

[49:40] Like the difficulty didn't feel good at

[49:42] all. At least when we did it, it was

[49:44] just wait for people to listen to the

[49:46] the video, you know, wait for people to

[49:48] move exactly how they're supposed to

[49:50] move and that's about it. There's no

[49:51] like try to do more damage. There's no

[49:53] like anything. It really just had very

[49:56] few redeeming qualities, at least to me.

[49:58] >> It was one of those bosses as well where

[49:59] like you do the same thing pull after

[50:01] pull.

[50:02] >> Oh yeah. It was not a short fight. very

[50:05] little of it is something where it's

[50:06] like, "Oh, this pull I got targeted by

[50:08] this." Like, "Oh, this pull this

[50:09] happened to me." Like, "I I need to

[50:11] learn how to deal with this." It's like,

[50:12] "No, if you you've done the fight once

[50:14] properly, like you you can press

[50:16] basically those same keyboard inputs

[50:18] every time."

[50:19] >> Yeah. Okay. But let me let me counter

[50:22] that with you could also do some MLG

[50:24] [ __ ] clips on this fight. Like like

[50:26] if you were on like the far team that

[50:27] had to bait that one thing out like late

[50:29] in the phase and then you also got like

[50:31] the earthquake spawn on you. There was

[50:33] just some clips of people staying alive

[50:35] that I just I actually couldn't believe

[50:36] they didn't kill them or someone else.

[50:39] Uh

[50:40] >> yeah. No, no, I get where you're coming

[50:41] from there. But that's the thing is if

[50:42] you tried to do those plays, nine times

[50:44] out of 10 you're wiping your raid.

[50:46] >> So the one clip is really cool. The

[50:48] other 10 times you're just like, "Okay,

[50:49] run it back, bro. Eight more minutes.

[50:51] Let's go."

[50:52] >> I can I can get the eight minutes. The

[50:53] eight minutes no RNG. You're always

[50:55] doing the same thing. I can definitely

[50:57] feel that. Also, especially if you're

[50:59] not like a class where naturally you do

[51:01] a lot of damage, the damage amps,

[51:02] >> the damage amps were very annoyingly

[51:05] timed, right? They didn't like line up

[51:07] with a lot of CDs. They were like really

[51:09] >> You know how I know I hate this fight?

[51:10] My class did a [ __ ] ton of damage and I

[51:12] hated it. [laughter]

[51:13] >> I was I was pumping and I was having no

[51:15] fun. This [ __ ] sucked. Also, I think

[51:18] part of it was like people always end up

[51:20] complaining near the end of a patch that

[51:22] don't raid a lot and they end up

[51:25] disliking the last boss or the second to

[51:27] last boss for I'm sure there are a lot

[51:30] of valid reasons, but I think part of it

[51:32] is like you're just kind of done at that

[51:34] point. Like you've been raiding for uh

[51:37] like a couple of months and you know you

[51:40] you're you're looking to you want to do

[51:41] this again, but maybe when the next

[51:43] season comes out like you're kind of

[51:44] just waiting for the raid progression to

[51:45] be over. or at least some of your raid

[51:46] feels that way. And Silken Court by that

[51:49] point, Ansurak was actually easier than

[51:51] Silken Court for like a lot of guilds,

[51:53] right? Like Silken Court was the hard

[51:54] part and then once you got to Answer, it

[51:56] just got [ __ ] on. Uh I don't think that

[51:58] was maybe true for either of your

[51:59] guilds, but that was true later. Um and

[52:02] maybe a lot of those guilds look at Sila

[52:04] Court as like the wall and they're like,

[52:05] "Man, I disliked this cuz like when I

[52:07] was on this boss, I was just waiting for

[52:09] it to be over and I just didn't

[52:10] appreciate it." Like I just wonder if

[52:12] there's any negative bias towards guilds

[52:14] that clear cutting edge late in patches

[52:15] against just later bosses because

[52:18] they're over it and that happens to be

[52:20] the boss they're fighting when they're

[52:21] over it.

[52:22] >> I don't know. Like it it was definitely

[52:23] rough coming off. You went four bosses

[52:26] that was like sub 10 poles into uh

[52:29] openax where we had over 100 polls. Uh

[52:32] Kysta where we had over 100 polls. We

[52:34] had Silicon Core where we had over 200

[52:36] polls. Like it was definitely a uh a

[52:38] sluggish part of the tier. But Anzak I

[52:41] have p like rated insanely high. So I

[52:43] feel like it can't be only because of

[52:45] that. But Silken Court might suffer due

[52:48] to the grindiness of the two bosses

[52:50] before.

[52:50] >> Yeah. Okay. Uh Silken Court dealt with

[52:55] what is your 10 Datnos?

[52:56] >> Uh Plexus Sentinel.

[52:58] >> Um I have it slightly higher and you

[53:03] have it uh Franc listed. Uh Franc, what

[53:05] is your 10?

[53:06] >> Dementious.

[53:08] >> Whoa. Jesus Christ.

[53:10] >> Wow. Okay.

[53:12] >> I'm very interested to hear about that

[53:14] in a long time for me.

[53:15] >> All about

[53:16] >> Yeah, [laughter] I have slightly higher.

[53:17] >> Yeah. Uh we have uh uh let's see. Number

[53:21] nine for me is Sprocketmonger.

[53:24] >> I have that.

[53:25] >> I have uh I have that higher.

[53:27] >> Yeah. Uh Dratnos, your nine.

[53:29] >> My number nine is Chrome King Gywix.

[53:33] >> I have that higher. And

[53:34] >> here's my number nine, which might be

[53:36] really controversial considering what I

[53:38] just dropped, but give me S. Give me SN

[53:40] at nine.

[53:41] >> Yeah, just S. Yeah, Sran just dunks

[53:44] Dementius, by the way. Just like Yeah,

[53:46] it's easy.

[53:46] >> Hey, listen. I get it. But once again,

[53:48] we're raiding a third boss versus the

[53:49] last boss. And third bosses, I'd rather

[53:51] have Sen than the last boss, I'd have

[53:53] Dementius. S wasn't a fun fight, man. I

[53:55] I had good fun. I should uh It kind of

[53:58] hurts, so you have to use your

[53:59] defensives kind of good. It's a third

[54:01] boss, so it's tough, but it's probably

[54:02] like one of my favorite third bosses

[54:03] ever. It was just a fun fight, man. I I

[54:05] had fun. It was a good fun fight.

[54:07] >> I think I think you're kind of cooking a

[54:09] little bit. Like the first time almost

[54:10] anyone killed this, you're like near the

[54:12] end of the room with like

[54:14] >> almost barely alive. There's like four

[54:16] people alive. You're [ __ ] taken down.

[54:18] >> The whole room is covered in 100 pulls

[54:21] less. It was good fun.

[54:23] >> Uh yeah. So that there's that also. I

[54:26] mean, I guess it just kind of looks

[54:26] cool. Also, the the main mechanic of the

[54:28] fight, the whole like do the things in a

[54:30] line was challenging, but if you failed

[54:33] it, it wasn't instantly over. It was

[54:35] like redeemable in some way. And I think

[54:37] that's really important for a third

[54:38] boss. It's also like pure single, so a

[54:41] lot of people get a lot out of that. I I

[54:43] I mean, we both had it a midfine boss. I

[54:47] don't think like Sikran's the best third

[54:48] boss ever, but what do you think, Draos?

[54:50] >> Yeah, I don't know. Again, I think it

[54:52] was like the difficulty is like a little

[54:53] too low, and that was part of the

[54:55] problem for the raids in general. Um,

[54:59] but yeah, it was fine. You know, fun. It

[55:01] could be it could be fun to do.

[55:03] >> Um, I mean, yeah. Is that it? Just W

[55:05] sick rain.

[55:06] >> Just W fight, man. Great fight.

[55:08] >> Moving on. Uh, I have Plexus Sentinel at

[55:11] eight and the highest I have a first

[55:13] boss.

[55:14] >> That is That is the third time we've

[55:16] listed it. Yes. I mean, we all have it

[55:17] decently high. I just think Plexus

[55:18] Sentinel is just one of the cooler first

[55:20] bosses they've ever made. Uh certainly I

[55:22] think a lot of people may not like it

[55:23] because it's just like more challenging

[55:25] than a lot of other first bosses. And I

[55:27] think for some people the expectation is

[55:28] like the first boss should be like

[55:29] pretty simple for me to go in and get my

[55:30] loot. And I do respect that. But I just

[55:33] think visually really cool. Also like

[55:35] the way we killed this was like [ __ ]

[55:37] wild. There's just like I we almost

[55:39] wiped on the first boss and that like

[55:41] meant something to me. Um I just think

[55:43] Plexus Sentinel is awesome. Cool fight.

[55:44] Cool fight.

[55:45] >> Yeah. I mean you guys really had the

[55:46] ideal kill of it, right? Can't get much

[55:48] better than that.

[55:49] >> Yeah. Well, it could. We could have just

[55:51] not had anyone die. That would have been

[55:52] better.

[55:53] >> Yeah, but that's not as exciting. It's

[55:54] the same thing with SR, man. You got to

[55:56] feel alive.

[55:57] >> Yep. I do think

[55:58] >> Yeah. No,

[55:59] >> I think it was objectively a pretty good

[56:01] first boss. Um I will say like it was a

[56:04] little bit of a slog, like for a first

[56:06] boss, and it still takes a long ass time

[56:09] during like even during rec. Like I I

[56:12] don't I just I kind of like first bosses

[56:14] where they go from like five minutes or

[56:17] six down to like three in farm rather

[56:20] than like

[56:21] >> 8 minutes down to six or whatever it is

[56:23] in this boss's case. So that's the only

[56:25] reason. I mean I have it pretty high as

[56:26] well, right? 10 10 pretty high.

[56:28] >> Yeah. Interestingly enough, this was my

[56:30] this was my highest rated first boss and

[56:32] I think both of you actually ranked Vexi

[56:36] as you

[56:36] >> Yeah, I have Vexi higher.

[56:37] >> Hey, no spoiler.

[56:38] >> Yeah, but like I mean Yeah. Like I I

[56:41] feel like that's respectable. Vexi has

[56:43] aura. Like Vexi is like a just

[56:46] thematically awesome. Uh okay. Uh can

[56:50] move on. Plex sentinel. Good first

[56:51] fight. Dratnos, you're number eight.

[56:54] >> Cauldron of Carnage.

[56:55] >> I have that higher.

[56:56] >> I have that higher as well. Uh Franc

[56:59] >> Mugsy at eight.

[57:00] >> I have that higher.

[57:01] >> I have that higher as well. Uh seven. I

[57:04] have onearmed bandit.

[57:05] >> I have that high.

[57:06] >> I had that lower.

[57:07] >> That [ __ ] shadow priest. All right.

[57:09] Uh,

[57:10] >> yeah. Sorry.

[57:10] >> Yeah, [laughter]

[57:11] me already.

[57:12] >> Yeah, Draos, what is your seven?

[57:14] >> Nexus Princess Kyza.

[57:16] >> I have that higher.

[57:17] >> Um, where's Okay.

[57:19] >> And Max already had that, right?

[57:20] >> Uh, I did. Yeah, I'm I'm uh trying to

[57:22] find it right now. My brain's not

[57:23] working. Okay, here we go. Um, Franc

[57:26] >> Vexi at seven.

[57:28] >> Okay,

[57:28] >> have that higher.

[57:29] >> Sweet. Me? My six is Cauldron of

[57:32] Carnage. Draos, you're uh

[57:35] >> uh I had that lower. Yeah,

[57:38] >> your next link. Yeah.

[57:40] >> Oh, yeah. Okay. My six is Nexus King

[57:42] Saladar.

[57:43] >> I have that.

[57:44] >> Okay. I also have that higher. Um,

[57:47] Franc, your six.

[57:49] >> My six is Cauldron.

[57:51] >> So, we have all three Cauldron. I mean,

[57:52] yeah, we all ranked it pretty high. I I

[57:55] randomly Someone linked me a tier list

[57:57] before this that they did with their

[57:58] guild. I don't know what guild is. to

[57:59] some random guild and they had Cauldron

[58:01] as in a tier of Yeah, I'd do 300 polls

[58:04] of this, which I by the way I think is

[58:07] just [ __ ] not true. Like anyone's

[58:09] doing Cauldron of Carnage for 300 polls,

[58:11] you're you're not having a good time.

[58:13] But

[58:13] >> you're rating it high because you didn't

[58:15] have to do 300 polls on it.

[58:16] >> Yeah, exactly. But I just thematically

[58:19] awesome. Also, just like using our merch

[58:22] as an example, we like I think our

[58:24] jersey for this tier was Cauldron of

[58:27] Carnage. It was the second boss and it

[58:30] obviously the boss doesn't matter, but

[58:32] it just had so much aura. Just it looked

[58:34] [ __ ] sick that it made up for it. And

[58:38] I think if you're going to do a second

[58:39] boss, there's some room for that. You

[58:40] know, it's like a like as far as the

[58:42] actual mechanics of Cauldron, it's not

[58:44] like amazing, right? It's just it's a

[58:46] boss. You you rotate between them.

[58:48] There's some non-moving stuff. There's

[58:50] some soaks. It's there's the kicking of

[58:52] the robots. It's super whatever. It just

[58:54] looks insane. I like that I could stand

[58:56] in the middle and dot both of them. It

[58:58] felt nice and unethical shadow moment

[59:00] >> and then I could dip over to the gorilla

[59:01] before the bomb spawned so I didn't bait

[59:03] it back. It was very nice.

[59:04] >> All right, W Cauldron. Uh my number five

[59:08] is Chrome King Galleywick which will be

[59:11] the highest that that is listed. I am

[59:14] not surprised that mine is higher than

[59:15] other people's. I am actually probably

[59:17] the single human on Earth that would

[59:20] rank Gywick higher than I think probably

[59:22] anyone else. And it's purely because the

[59:24] one redeeming quot This fight was not

[59:26] hard enough for an end boss in the race

[59:27] world first. But what it was was a fight

[59:31] that didn't have a dungeon journal and

[59:33] we were truly figuring out all of it in

[59:35] real time. And as the main strategy men,

[59:38] that was just really [ __ ] cool. And I

[59:40] wish every boss was like that. And that

[59:42] alone made this boss so much better.

[59:44] That being said, if I'm in like Ekko's

[59:46] position of also being in the world

[59:49] first race and you don't get to

[59:51] strategize this fight, you just walk up

[59:52] to it and are just doing it, it's just

[59:54] it's whatever, right? It's like super

[59:56] it's a huge letdown, but I don't know.

[59:58] Even though it was a little bit of a

[59:59] letown, it was also just really really

[1:00:01] fun to figure out. Uh so yeah, that's uh

[1:00:05] that's my that's my take on Gallowix. It

[1:00:07] also looked really cool. Uh Franc has it

[1:00:09] hella low. So what's your Gwix take?

[1:00:11] >> I don't know, man. It just does nothing.

[1:00:13] It's very It's very sad making it to the

[1:00:16] end of a raid to then have like a 50

[1:00:18] pull boss that just kind of does

[1:00:19] nothing. Like all all the prog is kind

[1:00:21] of like the first part of the phase and

[1:00:23] then nothing really happens and you just

[1:00:25] hope four people live and then that's

[1:00:27] it. That's the fight.

[1:00:28] >> What about P1 though?

[1:00:30] >> P1's got some pizzazz.

[1:00:31] >> It is exciting, but I think it's also

[1:00:33] cuz it's like it's end of the raid, man.

[1:00:35] I'm I'm trying to get I'm trying to get

[1:00:36] juiced up. I'm not trying to have the

[1:00:38] raid be over. is it doesn't make up for

[1:00:41] the fact that it's a complete like

[1:00:43] pushover. I think at least in my mind

[1:00:45] >> but I

[1:00:46] >> yeah there's just this experience that's

[1:00:48] missing that a hard boss has where it's

[1:00:50] like you're struggling to overcome a

[1:00:52] challenge. Gwix just never really did

[1:00:55] that like you did not have a challenge

[1:00:58] you were struggling to overcome

[1:01:00] >> that just died and you know it was like

[1:01:03] it was kind of a fun fight to execute

[1:01:04] for sure for a lot of people especially

[1:01:06] for the mages. I think they had a really

[1:01:08] good time, but like is not what an end

[1:01:09] boss should be in my opinion.

[1:01:12] >> Yeah. I hope uh I hope even though Gwix

[1:01:15] ended up not being ideal, I hope they do

[1:01:18] more no dungeon journal bosses in the

[1:01:21] future. I just think that's really sick.

[1:01:23] >> Yep. Means nothing to me at all. So go

[1:01:25] ahead.

[1:01:26] >> Yeah, do it for me. Do it for me and the

[1:01:28] race fans kind of. We're going to go

[1:01:30] dark. Cool. Uh so it's just definitely

[1:01:33] just for me. All right. Uh Dratnos,

[1:01:35] you're five. Uh, Mugsy, heads of

[1:01:37] security.

[1:01:38] >> Mugsy, I have Mugsy slightly higher. Uh,

[1:01:41] Franc,

[1:01:42] >> onearmed bandit at five.

[1:01:44] >> Onearmed bandit, and I believe that is

[1:01:47] >> Yeah,

[1:01:47] >> the highest. Yeah,

[1:01:48] >> that might be our biggest delta because

[1:01:49] you have it at five and I have it at 20.

[1:01:51] >> Uh,

[1:01:52] >> yeah.

[1:01:53] >> So far, so I mean, there's there's

[1:01:54] definitely Kyz is going to be the

[1:01:56] biggest one. Uh, but yeah, the

[1:01:58] >> Okay, onearmed Bandit. Uh, let's let's

[1:02:00] start with Franc or Franc.

[1:02:03] I mean, you kind of clocked me earlier.

[1:02:05] I was my guild's only shadow priest on

[1:02:07] this fight. I was like 30% ahead of

[1:02:09] everybody else. I didn't really have to

[1:02:10] do any mechanics or anything like that.

[1:02:12] And then like the ending of the fight is

[1:02:14] sick. Uh your your [ __ ] like moving

[1:02:16] around the room. You you have to go

[1:02:18] close to the chips to get a damage buff,

[1:02:20] which is really nice cuz it like it

[1:02:21] rewards like personal skill kind of like

[1:02:23] there there's all these things and it's

[1:02:25] it was just a fun fight. And I'm

[1:02:27] probably incredibly biased by the fact

[1:02:29] that my number was insanely big.

[1:02:31] >> Okay.

[1:02:33] Uh, Dratnos polar opposite.

[1:02:36] >> Yeah, I mean, Francon's just clearly

[1:02:37] been bribed by uh by details damage

[1:02:40] meter here. This is uh this is yet

[1:02:42] another prime example of why Blizzard

[1:02:43] needs to go further and not just remove

[1:02:45] details, but not make an in-game uh

[1:02:47] damage meter. That way, the the cloth

[1:02:49] will be lifted from his eyes and he will

[1:02:51] see how fun the fight was. Don't don't

[1:02:54] worry about six bunk junker.

[1:02:56] >> Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. No, I just We're

[1:02:58] the same, bro. We're the same.

[1:02:59] No, I'm better than you for under

[1:03:01] >> Yeah, sure, buddy. Sure, tank.

[1:03:03] >> Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, this fight was

[1:03:06] it like it was the difficulty was loaded

[1:03:09] into phase one rather than phase two. It

[1:03:12] had delightful damage stops. It had the

[1:03:15] excitement of getting alt shadow priests

[1:03:17] and alt affliction warlocks.

[1:03:19] >> Oh, yeah.

[1:03:19] >> To play. And, you know, they needed to

[1:03:22] It's It wasn't just one of those cases

[1:03:23] where it's like, oh,

[1:03:25] >> they just need to log in and place a a

[1:03:27] gateway, right? It was like, "Oh, they

[1:03:29] need to pump on their class because it's

[1:03:32] OP, but it's like it's only OP if they

[1:03:34] pump, right?" And like that I don't know

[1:03:37] it suck. Yeah, that that is I think the

[1:03:39] main thing that killed kill count for

[1:03:41] this for so many uh or pull count for so

[1:03:44] many guilds because I was looking at

[1:03:45] like why it's like okay if I went into

[1:03:47] Warcraft logs and I saw that a bunch of

[1:03:49] guilds had you know like one priest I'd

[1:03:54] be like okay I see why you took a 100

[1:03:57] plus pulls on this fight but every

[1:03:59] single guild in like the top 20 had like

[1:04:02] a bunch of shatter priests and warlocks

[1:04:03] and I'm like why is this boss why was

[1:04:05] this killed by world first guild so

[1:04:08] quickly and everyone else took so long

[1:04:10] and that that's that's not normal by the

[1:04:12] way. That's uh that that doesn't happen

[1:04:13] like actually ever. Like usually the

[1:04:15] pull count usually gets lower and lower,

[1:04:16] but this one was like real first guilds

[1:04:18] killed it and then even months later

[1:04:19] people were doubling the pull count. And

[1:04:21] it's because people were were playing

[1:04:23] for shadow priest. They were just people

[1:04:25] who don't play shadow priest and in a in

[1:04:27] a in a top guild you can swing you can

[1:04:30] have people that multiclass like that.

[1:04:31] You're just random guild even top 50

[1:04:33] guild doesn't have four shadow priest

[1:04:35] players most of the time, right? So like

[1:04:36] or four warlocks or whatever. So like

[1:04:38] you end up you end up running a uh

[1:04:40] optimal comp with suboptimal players

[1:04:42] playing things and that tanks your pull

[1:04:44] count on a boss like that more than

[1:04:46] anything. Also, if we're talking

[1:04:47] negatives, I have this pretty high, but

[1:04:49] I think this boss had really like

[1:04:53] underrated RNG. Like when you talk about

[1:04:55] bosses that have RNG, it's like more

[1:04:58] obvious, but just the the boss spawning

[1:05:00] the ads in the right order of like next

[1:05:02] to each other rather than on the other

[1:05:04] side of the room was such a massive

[1:05:05] deal. And uh also the for a boss that

[1:05:09] just had a red circle you had to dodge,

[1:05:11] it just feels like this one was harder

[1:05:13] to dodge than other bosses, like people

[1:05:14] were getting farmed by that.

[1:05:15] >> Rough, man.

[1:05:16] >> They're just getting hard farmed by the

[1:05:18] tornadoes. Um

[1:05:19] >> I would love to hear from BM hunters

[1:05:21] here. Did BM hunters like

[1:05:23] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I was about to say

[1:05:24] that. I was about to say that I'm sure

[1:05:25] this is one of the fights where like

[1:05:27] some classes have the biggest variance

[1:05:29] of enjoyment ever on this fight cuz

[1:05:30] there's just no way the BM hunter had

[1:05:32] foot. Like just

[1:05:33] >> I don't know. I think some people that

[1:05:35] are like super mechanic- minded are

[1:05:37] like, "Bro, I'm going to lock this [ __ ]

[1:05:38] down solo." I don't know.

[1:05:40] >> I mean, maybe. I guess it depends on on

[1:05:42] who you are, but it's definitely not the

[1:05:44] the same World of Warcraft we're

[1:05:45] playing, you know? We're playing two

[1:05:46] very different games.

[1:05:47] >> Yeah. Um there was another fight about

[1:05:50] this, D or this is also a a fight. We

[1:05:52] talked about this earlier with sticks

[1:05:54] where you can feel like you're a lot

[1:05:56] further than you are. I have yet to see

[1:05:58] a like pull chart of someone on this

[1:06:01] boss where they like progressed it

[1:06:03] pretty naturally and then killed it when

[1:06:04] they were supposed to. Almost every kill

[1:06:07] of this has some like one 2% wipe just

[1:06:11] like days before they kill it or like in

[1:06:15] the case of world first skill, it's like

[1:06:16] hours. It's just one of those fights

[1:06:18] where that happens and then you just are

[1:06:20] like, "Okay, time to kill it now." and

[1:06:21] then it'll just take you 40 pulls to get

[1:06:23] back into the last phase. It's just such

[1:06:25] a thing. Um,

[1:06:27] >> and that is really

[1:06:28] >> Maybe that's where my my bias is cuz I

[1:06:30] feel like we had a like pretty clean

[1:06:31] one. I just sent a picture of it in the

[1:06:33] chat. Like we

[1:06:34] >> Let's see.

[1:06:34] >> Our first low low pull was pull 92 and

[1:06:37] we killed it on pull 100. So it felt

[1:06:39] like

[1:06:39] >> a pretty natural curve for us. Um,

[1:06:42] >> you guys probably just got unlucky to

[1:06:45] not get a low pull on pull 60.

[1:06:47] >> Yeah. Got unlucky. really lucky on 100

[1:06:50] and our reclair was bad. I don't fully

[1:06:53] remember. I dodged I dodged rec clear. I

[1:06:54] dodged it.

[1:06:55] >> Dude, all I'm saying is you kill this in

[1:06:57] less pulls if your pull 60 right here

[1:07:00] was a 2% wipe instead of like a 10.

[1:07:02] >> I bet you would have pulled it longer.

[1:07:04] You would have killed it. It would have

[1:07:05] taken you longer to kill it purely due

[1:07:07] to tilting

[1:07:08] >> honestly. Like cuz that that's so so

[1:07:10] real.

[1:07:11] >> Boy, do I have some words on the next

[1:07:12] boss in that raid about that. Oh,

[1:07:14] >> okay. Yeah, I Yeah, most most pull also

[1:07:16] you guys killed it pretty fast. 100

[1:07:18] pulls, which is again double the race

[1:07:19] world first pull count, but people were

[1:07:21] pulling this boss hundreds of times.

[1:07:22] Like it was just straight farming people

[1:07:24] and it was so easy to wipe early, too,

[1:07:26] which is really easy to rack the pulls

[1:07:27] up. Plus, it's just an alltime tilter of

[1:07:29] an encounter. Uh, but I thought it had

[1:07:32] pizzazz. Also undertalked about cuz it's

[1:07:34] a trash area, and it's a trash area that

[1:07:36] also people skipped, but the casino area

[1:07:39] before you get to this boss is like one

[1:07:41] of the coolest.

[1:07:42] >> Yeah, that's one of the coolest things

[1:07:44] they've done in this game. Dude, I got

[1:07:45] to like explore that place because I was

[1:07:47] going back for the uh there's an

[1:07:49] achievement on that boss that gives

[1:07:51] decor. So, after raid last week, we uh

[1:07:53] we went to or the week before we went to

[1:07:55] go do that and oh my god, that area is

[1:07:58] so cool. It is extremely hype. Um okay,

[1:08:02] also is it never mind. Uh number four, I

[1:08:06] have Mugsy boss right after this, which

[1:08:09] we're going to talk about right now

[1:08:10] because you guys have it listed, I

[1:08:12] think, all pretty positively. Um I had

[1:08:14] it in uh five.

[1:08:16] >> Yeah. Yeah.

[1:08:17] >> I had it eight.

[1:08:18] >> Uh I don't I I have I have some Mugsy

[1:08:21] thought any Let's just have Fran Franco

[1:08:23] go first.

[1:08:24] >> Um I think Mie saw what should

[1:08:27] objectively be the worst raid night of

[1:08:28] my life. Uh my guild pulled a classic uh

[1:08:31] let's just raid Friday real quick. So uh

[1:08:34] so we can kill it. Um going to send once

[1:08:36] again a nice little graph of our

[1:08:38] percentages here on that Friday. Um we

[1:08:40] did a oh let's do like 3 hours, right?

[1:08:42] We did 3 hours. I had a deal with my

[1:08:44] mates. I was going to meet him at the

[1:08:45] bar. It was going to be great. We raided

[1:08:47] for 5 and a half hours and had a 0.25%

[1:08:50] wipe after our DK left who had the best

[1:08:52] execute damage at all. And it is one of

[1:08:55] my fondest WoW memories and always will

[1:08:56] be cuz that is an incredibly fun raid

[1:08:58] night. But man, what what a rough boss

[1:09:01] sometimes. Like the first two phases

[1:09:03] just became nothing. The last phase was

[1:09:05] kind of frustrating at times with like

[1:09:07] visual bugs and whatnot. Um but yeah, I

[1:09:09] overall really enjoyed my experience on

[1:09:11] this boss. Uh had a lot of fun with my

[1:09:13] guild doing it. Wish that the like

[1:09:16] soaking and and the specifically taking

[1:09:19] the last set of bombs where the like

[1:09:21] line was kind of [ __ ] up if I remember

[1:09:22] correctly wasn't as impactful as it

[1:09:24] ended up being. Um cuz it really felt

[1:09:26] like all the difficulty was loaded in

[1:09:28] the last 15% or so of the fight.

[1:09:30] >> Yeah, that's uh I think that's the only

[1:09:31] reason I maybe don't have it higher. uh

[1:09:34] is the difficulty in the last phase was

[1:09:36] so backloaded that you could get there

[1:09:38] pretty easily, but then it was just so

[1:09:40] nuclear hard that it took a lot of time

[1:09:41] to get there. And I think that's maybe

[1:09:43] that I could see an argument that that's

[1:09:44] like good boss design. But on that boss

[1:09:46] specifically, it felt just just the

[1:09:48] difficulty jump

[1:09:49] >> a little too much.

[1:09:50] >> Yeah, it was just so much harder. And

[1:09:51] and then also uh the bug in the last

[1:09:54] phase, which I believe

[1:09:56] >> still I don't think that ever got fixed

[1:09:59] somehow.

[1:09:59] >> It was active for us, too. And I think

[1:10:01] we were world 160 or something like that

[1:10:03] on it. So or 180 I think or something.

[1:10:06] Yeah. No, that that thing definitely

[1:10:08] suck.

[1:10:08] >> Yeah, it's uh Yeah, I mean that the fact

[1:10:11] that you had to like learn how to deal

[1:10:12] with a really annoying visual bug is

[1:10:14] just really shitty. Uh that that keeps

[1:10:16] it from being a little bit higher for

[1:10:18] me. I think the the like lore of this

[1:10:20] boss, like who it is, who the boss is,

[1:10:22] like the the two-headed ogre, one of

[1:10:24] them's wearing a [ __ ] tuxedo, the

[1:10:26] other one's like a brute. Like I just

[1:10:28] think that's cool as [ __ ] Uh, I also

[1:10:30] thought from a strategy standpoint that

[1:10:33] like jails and the way that they worked

[1:10:34] was really unique. I could see you

[1:10:36] playing a certain class and hating that,

[1:10:38] but like I just thought the way you

[1:10:40] actually planned that out was really

[1:10:42] cool. It's a really fun planning boss.

[1:10:43] We changed our strategy on how we were

[1:10:45] going to kill this so many times. It was

[1:10:47] a super epic kill. Like when you killed

[1:10:49] this, you were so happy. Like borderline

[1:10:51] end boss.

[1:10:52] >> Yeah.

[1:10:52] >> Uh, like feeling of actually killing

[1:10:55] this. Um, yeah. I don't know. Mugs is

[1:10:58] great. That's all I got.

[1:10:59] >> Yeah, 100%. It was This is one of one of

[1:11:01] those bosses that like my guild had a

[1:11:03] funny week or for as well. So, this one

[1:11:05] we had one where uh anytime either the

[1:11:08] boss or another player did a slashyell

[1:11:11] of any of the boss voice lines, it would

[1:11:12] like play it at full volume for you and

[1:11:14] make your character slashyell it too.

[1:11:17] So, it was uh this one like that's a

[1:11:19] vibe check that some of these bosses

[1:11:21] pass like this Rick Reverb, Dmensia

[1:11:23] Slater that were just like I don't know

[1:11:25] if your guilt makes a weak or it lands

[1:11:28] significantly higher on your rating.

[1:11:30] >> Yeah, I mean well it's you know how much

[1:11:32] is a cause and effect, right? Or is it

[1:11:34] like the

[1:11:34] >> you know the fights that are just have

[1:11:37] some element of of uh passing the vibe

[1:11:40] check to them, right?

[1:11:41] >> Yeah, that's fair.

[1:11:42] >> Um okay, let's uh keep moving. Uh, year

[1:11:46] four Dratnos.

[1:11:48] >> Uh, Vexi and the Gear Grinders.

[1:11:50] >> All right. This will be the highest for

[1:11:51] this. All right. You have a You have

[1:11:53] this very You have You chosen a list of

[1:11:55] the entire expansion of bosses to put

[1:11:57] Vexi in four. What What do you think,

[1:11:59] >> dude? Hell yeah. This is a It's a sweet

[1:12:01] first boss. It's It's fun. It's short.

[1:12:04] It gets shorter during farm nicely. It's

[1:12:07] uh It does not overstate its welcome. It

[1:12:10] kills your AFK people on the entrance

[1:12:13] animation, which never stopped being

[1:12:14] funny. True, true.

[1:12:16] >> Yeah. I don't What What more could you

[1:12:18] want from a boss,

[1:12:19] >> Frank?

[1:12:20] >> Yeah. I mean, that that's a pretty fair

[1:12:23] assessment of the boss. Um kind of

[1:12:24] annoying that you sometimes have to get

[1:12:26] into a bike. Not a fan of of not doing

[1:12:28] damn, but that was very minor. Um yeah,

[1:12:31] I mean, it was it was just a good boss.

[1:12:32] I have those.

[1:12:33] >> Oh, yeah. Had a damage amp as well, but

[1:12:35] you're right there. It did have that

[1:12:36] element of like

[1:12:37] >> the damage did

[1:12:39] no damage. The damage amp was I feel

[1:12:42] like you needed to come to a conclusion

[1:12:44] in your guild of like how long you were

[1:12:45] going to delay starting the thing cuz

[1:12:47] like you wanted if you were a dude

[1:12:48] >> somebody always had a different idea,

[1:12:49] dude.

[1:12:50] >> Yeah, that's true.

[1:12:50] >> The boots were ready and one guy took

[1:12:52] the bike hostage.

[1:12:52] >> Yeah, there were the people who wanted

[1:12:54] it to be like 1:30 and the people wanted

[1:12:55] to go at exactly 2 minutes or whatever

[1:12:58] and like Yeah. Lust the

[1:13:00] >> If you're going to lust the burn, you

[1:13:01] need to have CDs for it. And if you CD

[1:13:04] the pull as a two-minute class, you need

[1:13:06] it to be super delayed to really get a

[1:13:08] good burn

[1:13:09] >> and then like people would just send it

[1:13:10] early and you're like, "Okay, I guess I

[1:13:11] should have held

[1:13:12] >> and then it's I don't know. It's it's

[1:13:14] >> okay. But maybe is that good? Like maybe

[1:13:16] we don't reward the people who are

[1:13:17] trying too hard on the first boss. Send

[1:13:19] your cool downs when the the heart ones

[1:13:21] and then maybe you get rewarded and

[1:13:22] maybe you don't."

[1:13:23] >> Yeah, that's a good point actually. Like

[1:13:24] imagine actually caring about that. But

[1:13:26] people do that absolutely do.

[1:13:28] >> I know. I know. And we got to hunt them

[1:13:30] down.

[1:13:31] >> Uh okay. So yeah, Vexi Vexi. I mean, I

[1:13:34] had it a little lower, but not in any I

[1:13:36] I think Vexi is awesome. I did think

[1:13:37] Plex sent Sentinel was better. Um, but

[1:13:39] also I don't have the You guys are

[1:13:41] saying like I like a boss to get shorter

[1:13:43] in farm. So the thing about farm is I

[1:13:44] don't do it. So that's like completely

[1:13:47] >> That makes two of us, brother.

[1:13:48] >> Completely removed from my brain. Uh,

[1:13:52] Franc, what is your four?

[1:13:54] >> My four is Kyvesa.

[1:13:56] >> All right, we can talk about this. Uh,

[1:13:58] I'm just going to get mine out of the

[1:14:00] way. I understand Kyz as a absolutely

[1:14:01] banger uh of a of a fight. In its

[1:14:04] inception was really cool. If you were

[1:14:06] to just count the first 75% of

[1:14:08] progression we did on the 300 pulls of

[1:14:10] this boss, even up to 300 pulls, I would

[1:14:13] have called it an all-time absolute

[1:14:15] banger. Maybe it's my number one of the

[1:14:16] expansion. But the fact that we had to

[1:14:18] sit there and one tank this fight due to

[1:14:21] tuning, which was the least fun rating

[1:14:23] I've ever done, if anything happened,

[1:14:26] you were just not only could you just

[1:14:28] It'd be different if if someone died and

[1:14:30] you just waited to reset the boss and

[1:14:32] you just reset it instantly, but if

[1:14:34] someone died in the first minute and you

[1:14:36] lost that battle res, you had to wait

[1:14:38] until the first intermission was over to

[1:14:40] reset it because it wouldn't run in the

[1:14:43] intermission and it was actually slower

[1:14:44] to have everyone try to die in that

[1:14:46] phase. So, the amount of time wasting,

[1:14:49] I've just never been more frustrated. I

[1:14:51] had a crazy headache on this boss

[1:14:52] because I was so tilted from just the

[1:14:55] nature of what we were doing. And I

[1:14:57] don't know, that was it. It took a boss

[1:14:58] that would have been an all-time great

[1:14:59] for me into one that was one of the

[1:15:01] worst progression experiences I've ever

[1:15:02] had. But I do totally understand that's

[1:15:04] very unique to me. But this is my list,

[1:15:05] so that's where it is.

[1:15:06] >> I don't blame you at all. I don't blame

[1:15:08] you at all for that.

[1:15:09] >> Yeah. I also docked a bunch of like I I

[1:15:11] put this on seven and I think there were

[1:15:14] this boss like 90% of the work that went

[1:15:17] into it would have put it in like the

[1:15:18] top few spots but uh the difficulty and

[1:15:22] then leading to it needing to get

[1:15:23] nerfed. This is another one of those

[1:15:24] bosses where it's like we progged a

[1:15:26] version of the boss that then we did not

[1:15:28] get to kill, right? We we got to kill we

[1:15:30] got to roll up the next week and like

[1:15:32] fight the Disneyland version which

[1:15:34] obviously was still really hard. And

[1:15:35] there were a lot of guilds on both this

[1:15:37] boss and Forge Beeper that only ever

[1:15:38] fought the post nerf version and fought

[1:15:40] a really hard and fun fight. But like if

[1:15:42] you did a lot of Prague on the pre- nerf

[1:15:44] version, the nerfs that ended up needing

[1:15:45] to happen to these bosses were severe

[1:15:47] enough that you basically they basically

[1:15:49] robbed that experience of actually

[1:15:51] overcoming the challenge. Yeah.

[1:15:53] >> And getting the kill.

[1:15:54] >> Realistically, anytime you nerf a boss,

[1:15:57] the only people that are mad are you,

[1:15:59] right? Cuz like the people who have

[1:16:00] already killed the boss are like,

[1:16:01] "Easier clear." uh the people who have

[1:16:04] yet to get to the boss are like, "We

[1:16:06] probably needed that nerf." Right? And

[1:16:08] it's just the people that did that

[1:16:10] weren't able to quite kill it but

[1:16:12] progressed all of it. And then when you

[1:16:13] kill it, there's like this empty feeling

[1:16:15] like you're robbed of the screaming

[1:16:18] let's [ __ ] going like crazy [ __ ] of

[1:16:20] killing a hard boss and instead it's

[1:16:22] just like okay. And that's just such a

[1:16:24] let down. And Dratnos was just happened

[1:16:26] to be in that in that area. That

[1:16:27] happened a few times this expansion,

[1:16:28] right?

[1:16:29] >> It did. Yeah. Which I mean it's that is

[1:16:31] sort of the danger zone, right? is like

[1:16:32] if you're a little slower than the race

[1:16:33] world first guilds, you're going to

[1:16:35] you're going to catch the nerfs that but

[1:16:36] like they they ended up being some

[1:16:38] pretty heavy-handed nerfs this expansion

[1:16:40] it felt in particular.

[1:16:41] >> Yeah.

[1:16:42] >> Yeah. I don't know. This fight was great

[1:16:44] for us. We didn't have any big nerf

[1:16:46] issues. It was nice. It was good fun. It

[1:16:48] was a very difficult fight. It was a

[1:16:49] very punishing fight. I think I dock it

[1:16:52] uh the tiniest bit uh just due to the

[1:16:54] amount of damage some of those debuffs

[1:16:57] did, man. like needing a healer external

[1:16:59] if you take damage is not always the

[1:17:01] most fun at least in our world rank

[1:17:03] because like you got to get the macro

[1:17:04] and everything

[1:17:05] >> but like this fight was [ __ ] anyways

[1:17:08] it was a great fight

[1:17:09] >> I I think you actually brought up

[1:17:10] something that's very interesting there

[1:17:11] that I believe this is the like single

[1:17:14] you could call it a dot with like a big

[1:17:15] upfront hit and then a huge hit at the

[1:17:17] end but the when you got targeted by

[1:17:19] this boss's mechanic I don't know if

[1:17:21] there's ever been a dot that's hit

[1:17:22] harder in this game and it's on like six

[1:17:24] people at one time or some [ __ ] like

[1:17:25] it's it's [ __ ] nuts

[1:17:27] Uh,

[1:17:28] >> not a fun time to be a shadow priest,

[1:17:29] man. That's all that's all I'll say.

[1:17:31] >> I mean, I feel like

[1:17:32] >> especially if you got like two in a row

[1:17:33] or something like that cuz then you're

[1:17:34] out of juice, dude.

[1:17:35] >> I feel like every class in the game got

[1:17:36] [ __ ] nuked by that except for like

[1:17:38] evoker. Like evoker was the one class

[1:17:40] that just had obsidian scales anytime

[1:17:41] anything happened to them and they

[1:17:42] renewing blaze the dot damage and it was

[1:17:44] just nothing. Yeah, I don't know. But

[1:17:46] also the dagger dodging was like really

[1:17:48] hard. Um, okay. Yeah, Kyza, banger,

[1:17:51] except I hate it. Um, number three for

[1:17:54] me. So, we're getting into the top

[1:17:55] three. Interesting to see how much our

[1:17:57] top three differs. I have Nexus King in

[1:18:00] my my three spot here. Um, have you guys

[1:18:03] both ranked Nexus King?

[1:18:05] >> I have not.

[1:18:06] >> You have not, but I imagine it has to be

[1:18:08] soon. Uh, Dratnos, what's your three?

[1:18:10] >> My three is Sprocketmonger, Lockentock.

[1:18:15] >> You have it higher. Nice.

[1:18:16] >> Yeah. Wait, I had it. I must have had

[1:18:19] Okay, interesting. All right, Franc,

[1:18:21] what's your three?

[1:18:22] >> I have Nexus King at three.

[1:18:24] >> All right, Nexus King. So we can talk.

[1:18:26] We both ranked at three. I I I thought I

[1:18:28] was going to have this a lot higher than

[1:18:29] you guys cuz I think Nexus King is a

[1:18:31] fight where once you have it figured

[1:18:34] out, especially in the last phase, it

[1:18:37] kind of just feels like nothing's

[1:18:38] happening. Like you're just you're just

[1:18:40] like very slowly going through these

[1:18:41] things. But like the process of figuring

[1:18:43] out the right way to do planets in the

[1:18:46] last phase, which I I believe everyone

[1:18:48] does our strat for that. like the amount

[1:18:50] of time we spent figuring that out was

[1:18:52] just so rewarding to see it play out in

[1:18:54] real time. Uh it's just a huge trap

[1:18:57] offs. But then like a lot of I I

[1:18:58] expected you guys to rate it a lot lower

[1:19:00] because of that. Like cuz if you're not

[1:19:02] doing that and you're just you're go to

[1:19:04] these three markers, go to these three

[1:19:05] markers. It is just kind of like a

[1:19:06] really long phase that's really easy. Um

[1:19:09] the the visually really cool ad phase

[1:19:13] fine. Uh it's a damage amp fight that I

[1:19:16] think was like a little weird with how

[1:19:18] it lined up, right? Like if you use two

[1:19:20] minutes on the poll,

[1:19:21] >> not for me,

[1:19:22] >> you could use them at the beginning of

[1:19:23] P2 on twotarget and then you could have

[1:19:25] it for the burn, but you wouldn't be

[1:19:26] able to have it on the ad platform,

[1:19:27] right? So it was like,

[1:19:28] >> yeah, that's

[1:19:29] >> so I think minute and a halfs were

[1:19:30] actually

[1:19:31] >> Yeah, don't pot on pull. Don't do it.

[1:19:34] >> That is actually minus points for me.

[1:19:36] >> So also was like a it was this was the

[1:19:38] one of the first bosses where the minute

[1:19:40] and a half uh supremacy locked in,

[1:19:44] right? You had to like if you weren't a

[1:19:47] minute and a half class could minute and

[1:19:48] a half on the poll, minute and a half

[1:19:49] right at the end of P1 have your minute

[1:19:51] and a halfs for the ad platform which

[1:19:53] they carried it and then they had it in

[1:19:55] the burn and I feel like that was like

[1:19:57] just it was just superior to two

[1:19:59] minutes. You could only have a few two

[1:20:01] minutes get carried by the fact that

[1:20:02] your minute and a halfs were actually

[1:20:03] using on the platform. So like uh I just

[1:20:07] found that to be really interesting

[1:20:08] because like obviously that played out

[1:20:09] on Demensius. If you were a two-minute

[1:20:11] class on Demensius, you were just like

[1:20:12] were holding CD. It's like you just

[1:20:13] couldn't send on CD. Uh at least in

[1:20:15] progression. And I I think that was just

[1:20:18] a really interesting thing of Nexus

[1:20:20] King. Also, P1, how do you guys feel

[1:20:22] about P1? Is is P1 an all-time great

[1:20:24] phase for you or was it

[1:20:26] >> P1 was intense, man? It was intense. I

[1:20:29] feel like since I feel like it was even

[1:20:31] like more sudden than Tindril. Like you

[1:20:34] were [ __ ] in there and if you didn't

[1:20:36] use a personal immediately, you were

[1:20:37] dead like on the first mechanic of the

[1:20:38] fight. and that felt kind of sick. Um, I

[1:20:41] think the ghosts were a really funny way

[1:20:43] to figure out uh who in your guild is

[1:20:44] really stupid and can't turn their

[1:20:46] character and they needed a weak or that

[1:20:48] pointed at it. Um, I think P1 was

[1:20:51] fantastic actually. Like overall, it was

[1:20:53] just a a great time.

[1:20:54] >> Wait, did I I felt like it was a I

[1:20:57] noticed in when we were doing this fight

[1:20:59] that P1 and the Souls were a graphic

[1:21:02] setting problem, too. Um, I know that

[1:21:05] two things about

[1:21:06] >> two things are true. There was some

[1:21:07] graphic setting that I saw uh fired up

[1:21:09] wasn't using and I was watching VODs of

[1:21:11] other people like during wipes and like

[1:21:14] it looked way easier to see and then I

[1:21:17] looked at fired up and it was like okay

[1:21:19] change this whatever. Also inky black

[1:21:21] potion is something that's really

[1:21:22] underutilized. Inky black made the

[1:21:23] spirits way more obvious. Uh so that was

[1:21:26] something that we never were like you

[1:21:28] guys have to do this but honestly we

[1:21:29] probably should have. Um yeah super hard

[1:21:32] also never the same. you had to be

[1:21:35] willing and able to pivot based on the

[1:21:38] spawn order. The strat everyone ended up

[1:21:40] using uh was where there was basically

[1:21:44] only two options, right? It was either

[1:21:45] you're going to go first or you're going

[1:21:46] to go third, I think.

[1:21:47] >> Uh yeah, so like that that made it a

[1:21:49] little bit easier to understand, but

[1:21:50] like I don't know. I I think P1 I think

[1:21:52] you comparing it to Tendril is really

[1:21:54] interesting. They're obviously both

[1:21:55] second to last bosses, but Tindra was a

[1:21:57] fight where it just felt like you went 0

[1:21:58] to 100 instantly, and this fight also

[1:22:00] does that in a way that a lot of other

[1:22:01] fights don't. Yeah, I feel like it's the

[1:22:04] two only fights that I've played that uh

[1:22:06] I guess start that aggressively where

[1:22:08] it's like, okay, you got to you got to

[1:22:09] be fully like sit up and and for every

[1:22:11] pull like you can't slack one pole or

[1:22:13] you just immediately die. That's kind of

[1:22:15] cool.

[1:22:16] >> Um, one thing that takes something off

[1:22:18] of this is the first time you kill Nexus

[1:22:20] King, you know it's dead for like 30

[1:22:21] seconds.

[1:22:22] >> Uh, maybe for you, not for us. Like it's

[1:22:25] dead by damage, but you do have to aim

[1:22:26] the beam at the right turtle shell and

[1:22:29] >> Oh, that's hard. That's genuinely hard.

[1:22:30] >> Twice. Yeah, exactly. So, our kill timer

[1:22:33] lined up roughly or roughly with one of

[1:22:35] those, and that was kind of kind of

[1:22:37] intense. And we did have one wipe at

[1:22:39] like 2% due to somebody missing their

[1:22:41] their shot. Um, but yeah, it was it was

[1:22:44] good. We we prepared two different

[1:22:45] strats for this fight. One of which

[1:22:48] involved, oh, they're going to let us

[1:22:50] shoot the same planets over and over

[1:22:51] again. And the other one was you could

[1:22:53] never shoot the same planet twice. And

[1:22:55] that version of the boss, which they

[1:22:56] could have made, would have been I mean,

[1:22:58] it would have made P3 into just an

[1:23:00] absolutely nuts phase. It's like you

[1:23:02] would it would have been so hard. Um

[1:23:03] Okay.

[1:23:04] >> I also like the ad phase. Like I feel

[1:23:06] like it was a good one. It was It was

[1:23:07] kind of short. It was kind of intense.

[1:23:09] Like you have to play right. Yeah. I

[1:23:10] don't know. I like

[1:23:11] >> Yeah. Uh okay. Top two. What is my top

[1:23:16] two? My number two is Queen Answer.

[1:23:18] >> My number two is Queen Answer.

[1:23:21] >> Oh my god.

[1:23:23] >> Uh which means that you have Sprocket

[1:23:24] Monger as your number two.

[1:23:25] >> Sprocket monger number two. Yeah.

[1:23:27] >> I'm going to let you fight. I mean,

[1:23:29] actually, wait, both of you had the

[1:23:31] second and third. I'll let you cook.

[1:23:32] >> Well, that fight makes me feel a lot. I

[1:23:34] think there's a The movement was really

[1:23:36] interesting on the fight. Uh, there's a

[1:23:37] lot of ways to optimize. There's a

[1:23:39] slight bit of RNG that made it like

[1:23:41] which side you you got at the start kind

[1:23:44] of dictated how much you have to move,

[1:23:45] but I liked how that basically meant I

[1:23:48] had to learn two different fights. Um,

[1:23:51] which I thought was really cool. And

[1:23:52] then it's another fight where I just

[1:23:55] feel like I can't slack at all. like I

[1:23:57] kind of have to be on all the time and

[1:23:59] then the DPS check wasn't really that

[1:24:00] tight for us and I think that's the only

[1:24:02] thing keeping it from a number one spot

[1:24:03] almost for me. Yeah, it was a great

[1:24:06] time.

[1:24:06] >> Yeah, it's like they took the Silk and

[1:24:07] Court mechanic and they just made it uh

[1:24:10] >> fun to play and not immediately wipe the

[1:24:12] raid but kill me.

[1:24:13] >> Yeah. Uh okay, Dr. I'm assuming similar.

[1:24:18] >> Yeah, that was a it was a sick fight. I

[1:24:20] don't know. Answer was like, "Wait, are

[1:24:22] we talking about we're talking about

[1:24:23] Answer?"

[1:24:24] >> Sprocketer. Both these fights I think

[1:24:26] have very similar uh W's actually for me

[1:24:29] though, cuz I I'm I'm sitting here

[1:24:31] thinking about Sprocket and this is a

[1:24:33] fight where it was like the experience

[1:24:37] of Kyza and Forge Weaver in that like

[1:24:42] this was a boss that had to get nerfed

[1:24:44] into the ground like on the second week

[1:24:46] of the raid or whatever on mythic. And

[1:24:48] when I say into the ground, you and on

[1:24:49] the second week, obviously each of those

[1:24:51] fights was like a little different nerf

[1:24:52] timing, but this was the one of the

[1:24:54] three that my guild actually killed the

[1:24:57] hard version of, not the easy version

[1:24:59] of. So for me, like that I think the

[1:25:02] fights would probably all be about the

[1:25:04] same for me were it not for that. But

[1:25:05] like this one was it was so satisfying

[1:25:08] to actually get to kill the like week

[1:25:11] whatever week two version of Sprocket

[1:25:13] Monger um the same week you guys killed

[1:25:14] it. Not the same week Ekko killed it.

[1:25:15] They're they're of course much better

[1:25:17] were able to get it that very first

[1:25:18] week, but uh that was a that was a

[1:25:21] really satisfying experience on this

[1:25:22] one. Yeah,

[1:25:23] >> I'm just going to jump in right there.

[1:25:25] That that's part of the reason I have

[1:25:26] sprocket monger lore. Like I was

[1:25:27] thinking about why I like didn't think

[1:25:30] of it as positively in my brain and I'm

[1:25:31] pretty sure

[1:25:32] >> if our power doesn't go out and we kill

[1:25:34] sprocket first reset,

[1:25:36] >> I probably am like this boss [ __ ]

[1:25:38] owns. But part of my brain is like the

[1:25:40] fact that this kill was so antilimactic

[1:25:42] for us because like when we killed this

[1:25:44] we felt nothing cuz we're like okay like

[1:25:46] we should have killed this before and we

[1:25:48] felt like part of that was out of our

[1:25:49] hands. So like we I don't know just not

[1:25:52] not very positive thoughts about it.

[1:25:54] That is probably certainly a reason that

[1:25:55] it is down a few ranks from what it

[1:25:57] would have been. But I mean I I thought

[1:25:58] it was a great fight. Uh also just looks

[1:26:00] really cool. anytime you do the like

[1:26:02] siege crafter blackfy type like there's

[1:26:04] a bunch of like

[1:26:05] >> saw blades and rockets and all that [ __ ]

[1:26:07] especially with the raid you were in was

[1:26:09] like super thematic and was like I

[1:26:11] imagine like a race world first viewer

[1:26:13] just loved watching this fight for

[1:26:14] example and I think that adds points

[1:26:16] even when you were playing it. Um, the

[1:26:19] RNG on needing a weigor for this, I

[1:26:22] don't know if it needed a lot of

[1:26:23] maintenance. Like the weigora assigning

[1:26:25] people to certain spots and it was based

[1:26:28] on if you've been picked already or if

[1:26:29] you were the right color. I don't know

[1:26:31] if ranged necessarily like

[1:26:33] >> we never really had issues with that.

[1:26:34] Like I feel like that one always ended

[1:26:36] up coming down to like personal

[1:26:39] performance like you misunderstanding

[1:26:41] what you were supposed to do which I

[1:26:42] don't know is fine with me but I guess

[1:26:44] that could be different at a high level.

[1:26:45] >> Dude, someone in my chat said something

[1:26:47] very funny. They said if you would have

[1:26:48] killed it first week, it would have

[1:26:49] gotten nerfed faster and it would have

[1:26:50] ruined it for Dratos. [laughter]

[1:26:53] >> Actually, that actually might be true.

[1:26:55] >> It's possible. Yeah. I mean, we would we

[1:26:57] hadn't even started proging it, right?

[1:26:59] Like we we hadn't even uh cuz Sticks bug

[1:27:01] Junker was still alive for us at the end

[1:27:04] of the first week. So, it probably

[1:27:05] wouldn't have even ruined it that much

[1:27:06] for us.

[1:27:07] >> Yeah.

[1:27:07] >> Rumors are Poptart Kog paid off. Dingy

[1:27:10] to EMP. Look.

[1:27:11] >> Yeah. I mean, I was in the facility. I I

[1:27:13] was the agent.

[1:27:14] >> Yeah.

[1:27:14] >> True.

[1:27:15] >> Um Okay, we can kind of leave it there.

[1:27:17] That's I mean that I'm pretty sure

[1:27:18] Sprocketamonger is like the highest like

[1:27:21] fifth middle of the raid ass boss in a

[1:27:24] very long time actually. I'd have to

[1:27:26] like sit there and think compared to

[1:27:28] previous cuz also another thing that

[1:27:29] would have been nice on this. I didn't

[1:27:30] give him a ton of time to make this but

[1:27:32] like an average ranking for each boss

[1:27:33] which it looks like Queen Ansre is going

[1:27:35] to be the highest but Sprocketmonger I

[1:27:36] think is second. That's like pretty

[1:27:38] that's pretty insane. Um

[1:27:40] >> yeah I think you'd have to go back to

[1:27:41] like painmith right before there was a

[1:27:43] boss of that caliber. Oh, next

[1:27:46] waterfall.

[1:27:46] >> Uh, okay.

[1:27:49] We have or sorry, we have number one

[1:27:52] here. My number one. Only boss left is

[1:27:55] Demensius. Dratnos, you must also have

[1:27:57] Demensius. And Frank has Queen Anserek.

[1:28:01] Uh, we have number two.

[1:28:02] >> Uh, let's actually we'll we'll just

[1:28:04] start with Demensius and then we'll go

[1:28:05] to Queen Anerk after. Okay. So,

[1:28:07] Demensius. Uh, I'm I mean the boss

[1:28:11] [ __ ] owns last phase all time great.

[1:28:14] When you did it in progression, all your

[1:28:16] cooldowns lined up. You didn't have to

[1:28:17] do any damage stop stuff, which I don't

[1:28:19] know, but I think that might be part of

[1:28:20] Franc's bit. Uh, P1, this is how much

[1:28:24] this boss owns. We found out after

[1:28:27] progression that we just thought when

[1:28:29] people were dying in P1 of Demensius,

[1:28:31] they were just like, you know, there's

[1:28:33] four ads out that could all just pick

[1:28:34] one person and you would just die. We

[1:28:36] found out after progression that those

[1:28:38] ads were just bugged. They were just

[1:28:39] sometimes randomly shooting off like

[1:28:41] four damage events in 0.1 seconds and

[1:28:43] that is actually what was killing

[1:28:44] people.

[1:28:45] >> Um and it wasn't like like it wasn't it

[1:28:47] was like going on random people but

[1:28:49] enough of that events they were just

[1:28:50] literally bugged and they eventually

[1:28:51] fixed it. That would be enough to be

[1:28:54] like holy [ __ ] we wiped in P1 so much.

[1:28:55] Just the progression of this fight when

[1:28:57] you progress this fight you progress P1

[1:28:59] with lust and it was hard. You progress

[1:29:01] P2 first platform really hard. P2 second

[1:29:04] platform really hard with a caveat of we

[1:29:07] like almost one-shot it and it was

[1:29:09] because if you could just kill that guy

[1:29:10] fast enough you just our cool you know

[1:29:12] you didn't do the delay thing for cool

[1:29:14] downs or anything but like you could we

[1:29:16] was just kind of insane that that last

[1:29:17] winds didn't kill you like it just there

[1:29:19] was zero death floor if you killed the

[1:29:21] guy in time I think it's a good thing

[1:29:23] that that's the case by the way it was

[1:29:24] like already really really hard and then

[1:29:26] the last phase is just one of the

[1:29:28] hardest tank phases ever it's just

[1:29:31] positioning wise so insane There was a

[1:29:33] lot of constant strategy changing. The

[1:29:36] fact that even I hope I wonder if people

[1:29:37] still do this to this day where like you

[1:29:39] stand still and let the boss drag you

[1:29:41] and let it resolve as you're being

[1:29:43] dragged sometimes right next to a planet

[1:29:45] and if you move at all you just die for

[1:29:47] some reason even though that's not what

[1:29:48] it looks like. Like

[1:29:50] >> that I don't know like the fight was

[1:29:52] just like just crazy. And then on top of

[1:29:54] all that you finally progress P3. Now

[1:29:56] you have to go back and progress P1

[1:29:58] without lust which was probably the

[1:30:00] hardest part of the fight. I don't know

[1:30:01] that there's never been a fight like

[1:30:02] that ever. There's always a phase that's

[1:30:04] a gimme or a phase that's [ __ ] or

[1:30:07] something. None of it was [ __ ] It was

[1:30:08] all really fun progression. And on top

[1:30:10] of that, it is probably one of the

[1:30:12] coolest looking fights ever, if not the

[1:30:14] coolest looking fight ever. Um, that's

[1:30:17] it. That's all I got.

[1:30:20] >> Draos, you want to sque?

[1:30:21] >> Yeah, Draos. I mean, yeah,

[1:30:23] >> beast mode fight. Um, I want to shout

[1:30:26] out one underappreciated part of this

[1:30:28] fight as well is the uh the music of

[1:30:31] this fight goes crazy as well. If you're

[1:30:33] I don't know if people are playing with

[1:30:34] in-game music, but if you're not, you're

[1:30:36] missing out in the last phase. It's like

[1:30:39] the there's like a a choir that's just

[1:30:42] like singing in Latin or something about

[1:30:44] how how Pogers Demensius is or

[1:30:46] something. And yeah, it's great. And and

[1:30:49] another un before Franc demolishes the

[1:30:51] fight. Um the one other thing is we're

[1:30:55] about to go into a world of no weak

[1:30:57] oras. Well, kind of in the next

[1:30:59] expansion.

[1:30:59] >> Yeah.

[1:31:00] >> And

[1:31:01] >> for sure

[1:31:01] >> this fight outside of the P1 mechanic

[1:31:04] where you had the left middle front

[1:31:07] thing for the gravities, the rest of the

[1:31:10] fight is an example of what a fight

[1:31:12] could look like without weak warors. a a

[1:31:15] two expansions ago version of reverse

[1:31:17] gravity in P2 and P3 has an assignment

[1:31:20] and a map where you're supposed to

[1:31:22] stand, but it goes on a healer or ranged

[1:31:24] and a melee every time. And if you've

[1:31:26] made your raid comp correctly, basically

[1:31:28] everyone except for on average like one

[1:31:31] person is doing the exact same thing

[1:31:32] every time, which requires no weak aura,

[1:31:35] but is still very challenging, but in

[1:31:37] the way of you don't have a lot of time

[1:31:38] to do it rather than figuring out where

[1:31:40] the [ __ ] you're supposed to stand. That

[1:31:42] is really cool. That's an example of

[1:31:44] like you can remove weak ores and that

[1:31:46] fight's the same after P1 basically. Uh

[1:31:49] and I just think that was really

[1:31:50] impressive. All right, Fran, why does

[1:31:51] the fight suck?

[1:31:52] >> All right, first off, quick question. Do

[1:31:54] you think you have this above answer

[1:31:57] because the race was so much closer when

[1:31:59] you finished this? Like, do you think

[1:32:00] that impacts your decision-m at all? Cuz

[1:32:02] I feel like it would if I was in your

[1:32:04] shoes. I feel like dementias would be an

[1:32:06] alltime great cuz you know you you

[1:32:07] barely squeak by

[1:32:09] >> I mean not really like I mean what I

[1:32:10] care about is being better than our

[1:32:13] competition and in Queen Anerk there's

[1:32:15] like no way that anyone could say that

[1:32:18] they're better than us. We did so well

[1:32:21] on that fight that we just [ __ ]

[1:32:22] stomped everyone and Demensius I can't

[1:32:24] look at you with a straight face and say

[1:32:26] that we were just better than Ekko.

[1:32:27] That's just not true. And like even

[1:32:29] though it was like really exciting when

[1:32:30] we won,

[1:32:31] >> it's also like holy [ __ ] we almost

[1:32:34] didn't win. So like I I don't know

[1:32:36] >> play that through for content.

[1:32:38] >> Yeah. Yeah, maybe. I I don't know the

[1:32:40] But yeah, that's uh I to answer your

[1:32:42] question. Okay, I I'll let you continue

[1:32:44] owning it.

[1:32:45] >> Yeah. Time for the truth nuke. This

[1:32:47] fight post the first few weeks. So

[1:32:50] boring, man. So boring. Last phase was

[1:32:52] exciting. Rest was boring. Uh the first

[1:32:54] phase, you're looking at hands. You're

[1:32:56] kind of doing nothing. We only had to

[1:32:57] grab two people down, so we didn't have

[1:32:59] to be as locked in as you guys. We got

[1:33:00] the whole damage in about a minute worth

[1:33:02] of damage almost. Like it felt like you

[1:33:04] were just holding forever. Uh phase two,

[1:33:07] you're flying down, you're killing

[1:33:08] things, you're holding damage again.

[1:33:09] Nothing really happens again. Uh you fly

[1:33:12] to the second platform. This one's kind

[1:33:14] of tight. Like you have to damage a

[1:33:15] little, but you have to kill it at the

[1:33:17] right time again. You have to wait until

[1:33:18] the winds cuz healer cool downs,

[1:33:19] whatever. Whatever. you get to the last

[1:33:21] phase and much like you're giving it

[1:33:23] credit for being one of the hardest tank

[1:33:25] fights ever, um that can also really be

[1:33:27] a detriment if you have a tank who maybe

[1:33:30] shouldn't have that much responsibility

[1:33:32] and then you have 19 man basically

[1:33:34] relying on one player and that ended up

[1:33:38] being really frustrating to prog um and

[1:33:42] then something that like I feel like

[1:33:43] very few other bosses has such a crucial

[1:33:46] job that's as difficult for as long as

[1:33:48] what Dementia's had in the last phase.

[1:33:50] um for whatever tank you had running

[1:33:53] things. And uh that made it a really

[1:33:54] difficult fight for us to play and a

[1:33:56] really difficult fight to enjoy because

[1:33:57] I feel like I figured the fight out

[1:33:59] about a 100 polls before it died and

[1:34:01] then you just kind of sit there and wait

[1:34:03] for it to click, you know?

[1:34:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's

[1:34:05] >> frustating. No, that that that feeling

[1:34:07] of I think that's actually what makes

[1:34:10] people hate raid fights. Like it's

[1:34:11] really hard to hate a raid fight if you

[1:34:14] are the person that figures out how to

[1:34:16] kill it on the pull you kill it. If

[1:34:17] you're the person in your guild that's

[1:34:18] figured it out 50 pulls ago, those 50

[1:34:20] pulls are terrible because you're just

[1:34:22] like actually not stimulated in any way.

[1:34:24] You're just waiting for it to die. Uh,

[1:34:26] and you'd hope that, but that's like

[1:34:28] less the boss's fault and more like in a

[1:34:31] like lowkey it's like a guild fault.

[1:34:33] Now, a lot of guilds can't have that,

[1:34:34] but like finding good skill parody, but

[1:34:36] like like for example, you might have to

[1:34:38] you might have ranked this three things

[1:34:40] higher if you had a different tank. It

[1:34:41] sounds like not% like I think uh P1

[1:34:43] would still be an issue. Um, mostly just

[1:34:46] due to the fact that your damage really

[1:34:48] didn't matter in that entire phase at

[1:34:50] all to basically anything like the ads

[1:34:52] died long before they had to you had the

[1:34:55] whole damage on the boss anyways. So,

[1:34:57] you may as well not really care about

[1:34:58] that. Getting people down didn't really

[1:35:00] matter at all. So, it just ended up

[1:35:02] feeling like you were tapped out until

[1:35:03] the last phase where you were hoping

[1:35:05] that one player got his, you know, stuff

[1:35:08] together and and the boss could die.

[1:35:10] ended up being a very frustrating boss,

[1:35:12] which sucks because I really did like

[1:35:14] playing it when it was good and I liked

[1:35:16] progging it originally, which is why I

[1:35:17] have it as high as I have.

[1:35:18] >> I mean, I I don't As soon as you had it

[1:35:21] at 10, I I already knew it was the

[1:35:22] damage stop. That is that is genuinely

[1:35:25] annoying. Like, people like to play the

[1:35:27] game when you are when you at multiple

[1:35:30] times in a 10-minute fight for 20 to 30

[1:35:33] plus seconds, don't press anything and

[1:35:35] just run around. It's just simply not

[1:35:37] fun. That's not why you play this game.

[1:35:38] It's just not fun to do that. Uh that's

[1:35:41] why tanks hated necrotic. That's why

[1:35:43] healers hated overflowing. That's why

[1:35:45] melee hated uh was it spiteful or

[1:35:47] whatever where they just had to run away

[1:35:48] from the ads. Like like anytime the game

[1:35:51] forces you to not play your character,

[1:35:52] it sucks. And I wonder how they're going

[1:35:55] to go from that cuz like Demensius is

[1:35:57] just like one of those. It's just the

[1:35:59] first uh actually not the first. There's

[1:36:01] been a few in the last two raids, but

[1:36:03] for many years after Sanctum of

[1:36:05] Domination, they didn't make bosses that

[1:36:07] were phase based on the percentage of

[1:36:10] the boss's HP. They did that all the

[1:36:12] time in Sanctum Domination and before

[1:36:14] that. And what it Yeah. What it resulted

[1:36:17] in is people having to wait because

[1:36:19] that's just how that works. You need

[1:36:20] damage for and healing cool downs for

[1:36:21] the phase. And then for literally years,

[1:36:24] they did not make any fights like that

[1:36:25] for that exact reason because of the

[1:36:27] fallback. And then like they recently

[1:36:28] tried to dabble in it again. And kind of

[1:36:31] similar results.

[1:36:32] >> It's the same result every time, right?

[1:36:33] Like at least if the next phase is hard,

[1:36:35] you're just always going to wait for

[1:36:36] cool downs or try to

[1:36:38] >> Yeah,

[1:36:38] >> there's no reason not to, right? You

[1:36:40] just get punished for doing the boss

[1:36:42] efficiently, which always

[1:36:44] >> random random thought before we finish

[1:36:46] this off. What was the worst boss with

[1:36:48] damage stops?

[1:36:49] >> Keazad.

[1:36:50] >> Keasad is up there. Sylvanas.

[1:36:53] >> Wait, isn't it Zakul?

[1:36:54] >> Oh god, Zakul was so bad. But Zakula was

[1:36:56] like the fight even starts with it. But

[1:36:58] yeah. Yeah, that was also

[1:36:59] >> like you literally pull the boss and do

[1:37:01] nothing for a minute.

[1:37:02] >> Okay, maybe maybe I'm biased on to cool

[1:37:04] cuz I went downstairs and I got a lot of

[1:37:06] haste and that felt great. I feel like

[1:37:08] Sanctum was just the worst, man. That

[1:37:10] that's my least favorite right there.

[1:37:12] >> Yeah. Uh, okay. Fr's last pick has to be

[1:37:16] Queen Anak. You have it in

[1:37:18] >> uh Oh, I must have done the list wrong

[1:37:20] then cuz I have Lumathar right here.

[1:37:21] >> Oh, okay.

[1:37:22] >> No, no, it's Queen Answer. It's Queen

[1:37:24] Answer. That's

[1:37:25] >> Wait, where do you have Lumar? Oh, it's

[1:37:26] down there. Dude, I was actually

[1:37:27] looking. I knew it had to be Queen Aner,

[1:37:29] but I like was actually looking to see

[1:37:31] Lumar and forgot it was pink. Okay.

[1:37:33] >> Yeah, could be anything.

[1:37:34] >> All right, you can start it then.

[1:37:35] >> Uh, yeah. I mean, the fight was sick. I

[1:37:37] think P1 was pretty good. You did have

[1:37:39] to hold like a little bit of damage, but

[1:37:40] it was really nothing compared to what

[1:37:42] Dementia felt like, at least for us. Um,

[1:37:45] P2 was pretty fun and then P3 was just

[1:37:48] incredible. Like, I feel like P3 is one

[1:37:50] of the best P3s I've ever played. It's

[1:37:52] really fun. Sometimes ads spawned. I

[1:37:54] liked multi- dotting the ads and like

[1:37:57] where we killed it. The soft en rage of

[1:38:00] the next set of ads spawning and and

[1:38:02] like you kind of wanting to skip that

[1:38:04] ring completely or you're just hard dead

[1:38:06] was really fun. Um yeah, I mean overall

[1:38:08] I think it was just a really fun fight

[1:38:10] through and through. Also, your damage

[1:38:12] mattered all the time which is sick

[1:38:13] compared to Dementia's stinky B.

[1:38:15] >> I I thought P I thought P2 wasn't

[1:38:19] amazing. I don't know if it was bad, but

[1:38:22] I think P1 and P3 of this boss are like

[1:38:24] Alzheimer's. And also just like what it

[1:38:27] required from you in every phase like a

[1:38:28] bit different. Uh I thought the inter

[1:38:30] first intermission was good. I actually

[1:38:32] thought this was going to be pretty

[1:38:33] lowly ranked by a lot of people because

[1:38:34] it was just so hard. This boss was just

[1:38:36] like insane, insane, insane. I think

[1:38:40] Demensius was probably as hard as Anerk,

[1:38:42] but like I think Anerk was just like

[1:38:44] definitely harder than any boss that's

[1:38:45] ever existed when it came out. And I

[1:38:47] just anytime that's the case, people get

[1:38:49] better from it. But also, it's just you

[1:38:52] like I like I don't know. It's uh I just

[1:38:54] foresee that making people dislike it

[1:38:57] cuz like when you're on something that's

[1:38:58] really hard, they just don't like it,

[1:38:59] right? But it's uh but yeah, good.

[1:39:01] >> It depends on where you place the

[1:39:02] difficulty. Like at least for me cuz

[1:39:03] like yeah, this was where the difficulty

[1:39:05] was fun. I didn't have much fun when the

[1:39:07] difficulty was placed on, you know, one

[1:39:08] guy in the raid and you just hope he

[1:39:10] figures it out and then you pray.

[1:39:12] >> Yeah, I guess for me a lot of the reason

[1:39:13] that Demenius was so fun is cuz I was

[1:39:15] the tank. So, you know, last phase is

[1:39:18] like so sick for for me.

[1:39:21] >> Um, also like Brew Master in that phase

[1:39:23] as well. I was like transcending over

[1:39:25] these lines and it's it's rare that

[1:39:27] there's a mechanic that will kill you as

[1:39:29] a tank, but when you have that damage

[1:39:31] amp on you, the the line would um Yeah.

[1:39:34] I don't know. I I get it though. I get

[1:39:36] where you're coming from because I think

[1:39:37] a lot of my fights that I dislike are

[1:39:39] ones where I'm waiting for somebody to

[1:39:41] figure it out.

[1:39:42] Uh I I only ranked Demensius over Answer

[1:39:46] for one reason and I don't even know if

[1:39:48] this is even relevant because I'm like

[1:39:49] thinking to next expansion, but I gave

[1:39:51] Demensius points over Answer because it

[1:39:54] outside of the literal one mechanic in

[1:39:56] P1 which could have been changed in a

[1:39:58] 100 ways to not have this work. It just

[1:39:59] didn't require weak or in any way. It